🚨LIVE: LOCKOUT Bull Cycle Continues! Jackson Hole FULL RECAP. Giang Bui, A. Barack & Scott Keto in

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[music] We'll see you around the timeline. Feels [music] good to be back. I think the rollup is one of the [music] most premier media [singing] brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. [music] >> Adding it to my library as we see >> potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Dev Connect [music] day one here. You guys see this? [music] [music]

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the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> He said it. HE FINALLY SAID IT. >> So bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. Heat. [music] [music]

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>> Corola is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

>> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. And we're live. [screaming] That's what we like to see. That's what we like to hear. We are live. Jackson Hole Day. Kevin Warsh basically went on stage, said a lot of words, but didn't tell us whether to be bullish or bearish. We're going to figure that out with you guys here today. It is August 28th. And welcome to the rollup. Happy Friday out there for all bull market enjoyers.

We're going to continue this week's coverage because we're non-stop. Uh we are going to continue to show up day in and day out bearish or bullish. We're going to be here making sure that you guys are well informed and well aware of everything that's happening in the market today. We're going to get into it. Uh we have a fantastic show for you guys today. Remember, hit us up in the comments. The questions, the comments are all fantastic. Uh we want to hear from you guys and uh we want to make sure that we are uh fully gathering the public perception and opinion that is going to change the market. Uh making sure that you guys are well aware of all of this. Uh like I said, Kevin Worsh went on stage from

Jackson Hole earlier today and uh he had a lot to say and uh we're going to uh bring you guys exactly what you need to know. And so, like I said, fantastic show for you guys today. I don't have my headphones in, but we're going to get those in in just a moment. Uh, as always, today's show uh powered by Plume. Uh, Plume powers our tokenization tower, Empire State Building. That's what we're going uh to do live from New York City, the absolute center of finance. Today, it is in Jackson Hole.

I'm in the roll of headquarters south in South Florida and Plume sponsors the rollup headquarters north, the tokenization tower, the nest in the Empire State Building in New York City. And so big big fans of Plume and the team. Uh like I said, fantastic show. Let's go ahead and get over to today's topics. Uh we're going to tell you guys exactly what happened over at Jackson Hole with Kevin Worsh. uh Fed chair delivered a uh pretty solid speech. Uh there's been a lot of interpretations. I really like how he has a way of kind of telling you all of the principles and the disciplines about how you want to

read things, but not actually telling you uh how he's going to react. And so he does seem very methodical. And I honestly think he's going to be a good Fed chair. Uh he is telegraphing to the market. He's talking very sternly. the market is still pretty skeptical. So, we're going to get into everything and more about Kevin Worsh's speech from Jackson Hole. Uh, and then we're going to chat with the VP of Securitize, uh, Jen is going to join us. Jen Bui, uh, fresh hire from Securize. They've been absolutely crushing. They have a spa merger that is taking Securize public.

So, we're going to be chatting with her about that. Uh, then we've got a couple more great guests. Austin Beric from Relayer Capital and Scott Keo from Coin List. Uh, these guys have been crushing. Been going back and forth with Austin on the timeline about the pump fund multiples. So, plenty to chat about as the revenue meta continues on. And that's it. We're going to get into today's show. Let's go ahead. Let's do it and uh chat a little bit before we get into the guest segments for today. As always, we are proud to be sponsored by our tokenized equities partner, Dinari. dinar is absolutely crushing it on the tokenized equities front. Uh we are uh very very excited about the opportunities that tokenized equities

will bring for all of the D5 protocols on chain. Uh remember the size and scale of the tokenized equities asset class is a hundred trillion plus which means that this is the precipice of a new asset class beginning to emerge on chain. I mean, it feels like tokenized equities are kind of the second coming of stable coins. If you think about stable coins bringing cash on chain in a tokenized way, stable coins are finding product market fit at the largest and highest levels of finance. And we believe that tokenized equities will be doing something very similar as they come on chain. We believe that they will flow uh

into all levels of DeFi and we're going to continue to see that as tokenized equities emerge. Dinari is one of the front runners. Obviously, you guys are familiar with Robin Hood and Coinbase. We believe dinari has some very very compelling technology that is putting them at the center of the tokenized equities buildout and this is a asset class and a segment of the industry that is poised for tremendous growth as the industry is legitimized in the eyes of regulators as well as the eyes of financial incumbents. We anticipate tokenized equities will continue to rage on. Let's get into today's weather. You guys may not even have noticed that I put in my headphones [snorts] as I was

saying all of that. So, feel pretty good about that. Today's weather, 78 degrees. It's the coolest day that we've had in quite a while here in sunny South Florida. Rain has cooled us off a little bit. Bit of a storm yesterday. Had some internet issues. We are continuing to push forward. So, 78 degrees feels like fall is among us, upon us. And uh I mean look new monetary regime new weather patterns feels very serendipitous. Let's continue. We are going to tell you about our next partner frack. As I mentioned stable coins are at the heart of this market. Stable coins are in fact becoming a matter of national security.

As you heard from Treasury Secretary Bessant as well as Kevin Walsh today which we will talk more about. uh there is a uh twist happening both at the treasury level and at the Fed level. Uh they are removing duration from the bond market which means that they're issuing less bonds. Those are the long-term treasuries and they're issuing more bills. Those are the short-term treasuries. And who are the buyers of these bills? There is speculation that Kevin Worsh was going to support this and the Federal Reserve was going to buy some of these bills. Turns out that's probably not the case. But uh the Jackson Hole presser today has a subject and its main topic is financial innovation and stable coins are at the heart of this financial innovation

especially when we talk about potential buyers of short-term bills. So FRA is at the heart of the industry buildout as it pertains to the global and financial system in the United States and abroad. Today's market reacting to Kevin Worsh's statement a little bit red. A little bit red. We don't have our green tinge in the corner as you see. Uh we don't quite get a red tinge, but what we have here is the market sort of trying to figure out what Kevin Worsh just said. Uh obviously, you know, we don't really uh understand or know like, hey, you know, what is he doing? He's

really really particular and intentional about not issuing any kind of forward guidance. And so what we see is the market kind of parsing out, okay, you know, he was he he had very hawkish rhetoric on inflation. Typically that means you're going to hike rates, but he also didn't really seem like he was going to hike rates. So how are you going to lower inflation but not hike rates and also shrink the balance sheet of the Fed? And there's a lot of mental gymnastics that economists are doing. We have a thesis here at the rollup. Uh I spent last night reading the Citrini article which uh was essentially an analysis on what Kevin Worsh would do, how he might react to the Treasury market and the Treasury twist that

Secretary Bessant is doing. And so there's lots at play here and this is a monetary regime that we really haven't seen in prior times. Um I put out a tweet earlier today that said, "Look, I think we're going to get a couple weeks of chop. Uh we know what Besson is going to do. We know that he's going to come in with a massive buyback of longdated treasuries uh early in September. That's September 9th. As we get a little bit later into September, we've got a Fed meeting on September 15th. And we're anticipating that he that Kevin Walsh is not going to hike rates. And so all these things considered are creating a monetary regime that feels like it's under a little bit of pressure right now with the talk. They're signaling a

little bit more hawkish, the Treasury signaling a bit more accommodative, but when they actually turn words into actions, we believe this is going to be extraordinarily bullish for the digital asset industry. That's what we're watching. We're going to get into a little bit more of the nitty-gritty, the details here in a little bit. Uh, but I believe we have Andy calling in live from Jackson Hole. We are checking on his audio. We are setting him up behind the scenes. My co-host Andy is in Jackson Hole at the ground floor of the Jackson Hole Presser where Kevin Worsh gave his speech this

morning. As you guys might know, there is a broad conference symposium that is taking place around Kevin Worsh and his speech. And so there's plenty happening uh on the ground there. Uh it's not just this one speech, but it's also uh number of panels. Uh we also heard Kevin Worsh talking about hikes. Uh not rate hikes per se, but actually going on hikes with other decision makers in the monetary regime talking about Ben Bernaki and a hike that he took with him. Uh there was speculation that maybe Kevin Worsh was saying hike so frequently early in his speech as a result of of trying to throw off the algorithms. Uh but what I think we're gathering is that the the walk

doesn't necessarily match the talk. I think that is what we're seeing. Um as we put together a thesis of what this monetary regime could look like. Um it feels like that is what we have playing out. The walk isn't matching the talk. Uh we know that Treasury Bessant uh Secretary Bessant is creating this accommodative monetary policy. uh he is signaling the the talk to of Bessant is that we're going to get something extremely accommodative. Uh they're going to take duration out of the market by buying it back, issuing less of those long-term bonds and then ultimately uh you know issuing more bills or shortdated bonds where the market is.

Right? So, we know that there's market demand in the short run for these bonds. Uh there's not as much demand in the long run. And so what it seems like they're trying to do is they're trying to lower rates in the short run and they're trying to uh just control rates in the long run. Obviously, you know, lower interest rates as a whole is going to be healthier uh for US market growth. Uh but ultimately uh it is difficult to control both the short end and the long end at the same time. uh the Treasury is in more control of the long end and we see what they're doing with the Treasury twist by taking a lot of the duration out of the market.

Uh and then you know what we have is uh the Fed in more control of the short end because they set the federal uh funds rate. And so, you know, we've got a couple of things. And as I mentioned, I was reading through this Catrini article and we're going to get a live update from Andy live from Jackson Hole in just a moment. Uh, but this is this is effectively what we're seeing play out. Uh, if you guys are unfamiliar with the twist, the twist is a change in the duration of the bond market. And you might think like, hey, how is this relevant? You know, you guys talk about digital assets, you talk about digital finance, we talk about technological innovations very frequently. You know,

that means uh blockchains and tokenization and all these things. But if you're curious why Bitcoin and the entire digital asset industry exploded off the lows, it exploded because of this Treasury buyback program that Bessant announced. So when the macroeconomic landscape changes, it affects everything downstream, including hard money and scarce assets. And you can kind of separate the thesis of the portfolio as we've been talking about it into two buckets. You've got you've got hard assets on one side and you've got you've got growth assets on the other side.

Revenue and scarcity. And this is what we're seeing play out. On one hand, uh it feels as if they're preheating the money printer. This thing is going to get turned on and that is going to in particularly benefit the scarce assets, the the the hard money because that is most sensitive to inflation. And so if inflation runs hot and they run the economy hot, then we're in a position where uh hard money and scarce are going to do extremely well as people look to hedge inflation. On the other hand, if we do get clearance to invest in growth, well, growth assets are typically a segment of equities, but also increasingly a segment in digital assets. And so, we know that, you know, technology has typically been a growth

segment in the equities market. We know now that, you know, financial technology is also a growth segment in the digital assets market. And so we've got the these these two things that are coming up uh in the uh in in in digital finance and this is what we're seeing play out. Um and and this is the portfolio construction thesis. It is this barbell thesis. Um and this is what we're seeing play out.

And this is very dependent on global macro liquidity cycles. And so that is uh that is what we're seeing play out here. As I mentioned, I'll give you a little bit of a a look inside what what we have here going forward because uh Catrini did a great job putting this together uh and talking about how Kevin Worsh can facilitate this twist um where effectively we know that Kevin Worsh has been a proponent against quantitative easing. All right.

He doesn't quite want to do quantitative tightening, but this is what we have. Uh this is what we have at play here. And so this is what we are seeing, guys. We're going to get set here and bring up Andy in just a moment. Believe we're getting him ready. He's on the ground in Jackson Hole. And so this is uh what we're seeing. Let's go ahead hit a quick commercial break, guys. Don't go anywhere. We're going to bring up Andy live from Jackson Hole. >> [music] [music]

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[music] >> Yo yo yo. What's going on guys? This is Itan with the rollup. We're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City. There we go. We're live, guys. You wouldn't believe the kind of production that we got going behind the scenes in order to bring live broadcast feed straight from Jackson Hole. We've got breaking news for my co-host. He is live on the ground floor with uh several of the decision makers in the macroeconomic landscape. Uh so, let's go. Breaking news live from Jackson Hole with Andy.

There he is. Andy, you're live here on the rollup. Welcome back. It's been a minute since we've seen you. You were there. I mean, you're in Jackson Hole with Kevin Worsh with several of the central bankers from around the world. We've been hearing about the Treasury twist. Federal Reserve chairman Kevin Worsh restricting the balance sheet. Is he hiking rates? Is he not hiking rates? What are you hearing on the ground? Yeah. >> Where do I even start? I mean, great to be back. Um, it's an amazing, beautiful couple days here out west. I took a nice trip off of the uh show and take a break. You know, had some nice family stuff and now we're here. We're at the Jackson Lake Lodge. It is absolutely buzzing. Uh, so last night, coincidentally, by the way, guys, I booked this trip and I am stuck in the

JFK airport on for seven hours on a plane last week and I'm so pissed off that I'm like, I'm going to get another day in the national parks. I booked Jackson Lake Lodge. No clue this was happening. No clue. I come to find out that there's a fed speech at Jackson Hole and I search it on on Gemini and boom, it's at Jackson Lake Lodge on Friday morning. were staying there Thursday night last night. We get to the hotel last night and I mean I've never seen anything like it. Secret service, police, assault rifles, uh you know, like bodyguard looking folks that are everywhere. They're just standing all over the place. Kind of just felt like a like a movie scene. We walk up the stairs, we check in, and the first thing that we see is this massive crowd of

people. And we look around and there's all these media. So, we're like, "All right, let me just hang out for a bit." 10 minutes later, Kevin Wars rolls in. Kevin Wars rolls straight in. He's like six foot, thin guy. He's kind of like a Chad. Like honestly, pretty pretty pretty epic. We're waiting for JD Vance. We're waiting for JD Vance. Vance doesn't come in. So, I don't know if JD Vance is on the ground if he is here. But we saw uh Neil Qashqari a ton of Federal Reserve members of regional banks as well as for uh the kind of national Federal Reserve and we just finished we just finished the most important uh conference of or sorry press conference of this broader

conference. So it's a three-day event here and yeah I mean I'm here in the lobby and it's the most unique vibe that I've seen in a long time. You've got folks that are, you know, tourists like myself coming in for the hikes asking what's going on. You've got [laughter] folks dressed up in suits like there are going to work meetings and you've got everything in between. Kids running around, older folks, younger folks. It is such such an like interesting atmosphere. And so that's kind of the setting. That's the setting of where I'm at, of what's going on. And it feels like a movie. I mean, we stayed the night here. I got good nine hours and it's just been crazy this morning up at 6:00 a.m. in the lobby just chatting. I

mean, I've talked to journalists from Europe who covered the ECB. I've talked to South Korean and Japanese financial journalists. I mean, I've spoken to some of the largest journalists in these countries. I met the OddLots podcast host Joe Weisenthal um and his co-host um and got a photo with them. I met um Prasan Irwad, a Cornell University professor said he would love to come on the show. I also met a head of international economics um Adam uh Poston, very very coveted uh economist.

And so I'm just sitting in this lobby, you know, I'm not wearing this the whole time because I'm trying to blend in a little bit, you know, I'm just wearing a nice shirt, taking it easy, got my hat on. I'm just a tourist. I just happen to be here and I'm just hitting these people with questions like, "Oh, what's going on here? What, you know, what's your results?" And they're just firing. So, I met Kathleen Hayes. She runs the central bank central newsletter. So, overall, it's just been a very, you know, unique experience. And so, that's the setting and I'm sure we can get into some of the macro and some of the decision. I'm looking at Bitcoin 771 772. So, down a couple percent today, which, you know, I have a lot to say about what was going on here and the and the remarks.

>> So, you're you're you're playing it cool around these guys. They're they're, you know, fired up around uh around this conference and you're sitting there like, "Hey, so what's going on here? What?" And then you're just letting them go, >> playing dumb and letting them rip. [laughter] It's been It's been brilliant. >> And so Kevin Walsh gave his uh address this morning. uh you know it kind of felt like the market is pretty skeptical like you know he was using a lot of hawkish rhetoric but I think people are still pretty skeptical as far as what that turns into you know when it turns into action people I think still don't really really believe him that he's going to take inflation seriously what has been the the consensus amongst the

people that you're talking to especially as it pertains to like Bessant and Worsh do they seem to be collaborating and on the same page or are they sort of at odds with one another. >> And so I was in the coffee line with a high up Federal Reserve um woman. I I didn't get her name. And of course, she's on like, you know, I bleed the fifth energy, which is totally great, but of course, you know, I'm I'm persistent. I'm getting an answer. And so we chat. We chat. And she's like kind of not even looking at me. She's kind of giving me the cold shoulder. And so I throw her I throw her a little bone. And I'm like, so Bessant is kind of stepping on the toes of the Fed. Why is the Treasury Secretary trying to influence

the policy that the Fed is supposed to have influence over? And she looks at me and she goes, she kind of laughs. She kind of like acknowledges what I'm saying and she goes, "No comment." And then she walks away. So there's clearly this hostility that is, you know, coming from the Fed where you have Bessant being like, why is he trying to influence our policy and kind of like force us to a decision >> but at the same time you can tell through wors being very it was kind of a bit of an interesting talk because he started with this AI disinflationary rhetoric and he spoke about how AI is changing so much searching for the price of tokens how we

find the right price of these tokens, these AI tokens. And then he ended with such an emphasis on inflation. And so it's kind of this weird throughine where he kind of started all this, you know, disinflationary AI innovation, technological technological progress and ended with the inflationary pressure is still very strong. >> And so I think Bessent and I think the Fed are working together. Obviously, I think they're obviously in contact, but I got a sense from a Fed official on the ground here that they may think that the Treasury is stepping on their toes by trying to control the steepening of the yield curves on the longer term side.

And so, I thought that was particularly interesting with regards to Bessant and the Fed kind of what's happening. And so, you know, Warsh and Bessant used to work together, like they were both uh under uh Drunken Miller, who's now in in Hyperlid, which uh you know, we love we love to see a hyperlquid bull out there in the trady world. And so do you get the sense that maybe people at the Fed other than Worsh are sort of like getting, you know, a little bit aggravated by the Treasury, but Worsh given that he is on good terms with Bessant. Like like the top guys at each of these institutions are friends, but everyone else at these institutions are kind of kind of conflicting and and maybe at odds with one another.

>> Yeah. Um I just want to double check uh in the chat, guys. Is my audio okay? I know I'm I'm in I'm in this hotel. Um just checking in. Guys, let let me know if uh if it's not. Um and so yeah, I get the vibe that less so of maybe hostility or conflict, but everyone was on edge before the meeting this morning at 6:30 a.m. in this lobby. You felt this nervous onedge energy. It was almost like there was this overemphasized importance on what is happening, right?

And so there was this overemphasized importance of this specific meeting. And I'm not exactly sure how the um how the Fed uh people react necessarily individually, >> but I did speak to two women out uh out on the patio yesterday prior to the meeting. again very tight-lipped uh from the Cleveland Fed and the St. Louis Fed and they also emphasized the importance of this meeting and no one directly said because Secretary Treasury uh Scott Bessant is pushing the needle for the Fed to to act but it was more so because that Fed chair Worsh is new. So, the

over the kind of overarching uh nerves and on edge feeling that has now been completely eroded, and I'll get to why um was a result more so of Kevin Worsh's lack of experience as being a Fed chair >> in this current term versus Bessant or Treasury or conflicts internally amongst two different parts of the US government. >> Yeah. And so, you know, Kevin Worsh has been at the Fed before, but obviously now he is the chairman. And so, that is, you know, a significantly uh more important role than he was playing in the past. And so, you're talking about, you know, how everyone was sort of on edge. The mood and the vibe in here was, you know, very tense. Uh, but that has

completely gone away. Why why has that gone away? >> Before I directly answer that, I'll just kind of give you uh a little bit of background on Worsh. And so he came from this um policy uh program you could say uh where it was very rules-based behavior. So as you guys heard on the uh conference today, forward guidance is not what Wars is is is about. He does not want to do any sort of forward guidance to this market. Former Fed chair Jerome Pal was the king of forward guidance.

>> It was almost like we already knew what was going to happen in in every conference before it happened. >> This is different. We are expecting more volatility in the markets every single conference and interest rate decision than in previous regimes. Now the issue is >> Andy, let me just I just want to give you even more evidence to what you're saying after Wars' speech today. The prediction markets have the next rate decision at complete coin flip. It's totally 50/50 whether they're going to hike or they're going to go no change in September's FOMC meeting. and renowned e uh economist Adam Poston who I spoke to, he gave it a really low chance for September. However, he gave it a 100% chance of a rate hike this year by

December. So, at the end of the December meeting, he's suggesting a potential 100% rate hike chance. Now, wow. The the issue that Poston had with Worsh in this specific meeting and so far is that he was trained by guys and worked like with guys like John Taylor and other Fed uh Fed Reserve executives who are very rules-based. And he said that what Worsh is doing with his forward guidance or his lack thereof is trying to achieve maximum discretion. And so he wants to be able to make lastm minute decisions due to and achieve maximum discretion in his policym versus having kind of the cards on the table early and coming to a

slow choice on interest rates. Now with that being said, Poston was kind of negative on Worsh and I understand he's an he's an economist and he has his own views. The vibe of the room was different. It was almost like you go to a dentist and you're getting your wisdom teeth out and you're really nervous and then it's done and you're like, "H, it's done." And it was the same thing. After the 30 minutes, it was finally done. >> But not only was it done, Worsh came out hawkish. He started his speech with two dialogues about separate hikes that he's gone on out west. and he started one with a specific Fed

executive and another with uh ex-chairman Bernani or Fed member Berneni. And the first one he described >> was treacherous and terrible and the second hike he described was a walk in the park. >> And so he kind of laid us up for a hike in the beginning of his speech and then by the end towards the end he goes there has not been a decision made for September's Fed meeting. He confirmed that his priority is discipline but not a decision. And so when that came out, all of the hawkishness that was kind of front-loaded, if you will, seemed to turn into dovishness at the end of the speech. Sure, he gave a strong precedent

for keeping the inflation mandate and price stability at 2%. Sure. However, it was very clear that his hawkish stance in the beginning was somewhat reverse at the end, stating that there is not a decision for September's meeting, which I think is expected of Fed Chairwoman Wars. You're not going to know if there's going to be an interest rate cut or hike in the future with this guy, and you may not even know if there's going to be a decision in the direction of doing anything. So, uh, 5050 for September. economist Poston, Adam Poston, thinks that um we will see a uh rate hike 100% by the end of the year.

And our friend Kathleen Hayes, who runs Central Bank Central, she believes that Chairman Walsh left left the door open, quote unquote, for a hike in September. So I think the markets are reacting negatively right now. Specifically Bitcoin as a as a barometer of uh asset reflexivity and money in the system because they may think that there is a potential for a hike coming later this year. >> And and that's I think exactly what Worsh wants is he wants to sort of scare the market into thinking that he's going to do something about inflation. But then this FOMC meeting comes around and you know he he's got maximum optionality as as far as what you're saying is totally giving him uh room to do

whatever he needs to do based on the data when the time comes to make a decision. And you know I I think there's there's several other factors like uh as far as what the Treasury is doing and what Wars could potentially do. Um, you know, there was uh this topic though broadly around this symposium, this Fed symposium there in Jackson Hole around financial innovation and I was, you know, you and I were were texting a little bit last night about what that could mean, you know, how central is stable coins to this financial innovation thesis. I'm just curious, did you hear anything about stable coins as you were there on the floor? Catrini in their article was basically saying how you know this Fed twist or Treasury twist is going to decrease the amount of

bonds in the long end, increase the amount of bills in the short end where there's demand and one of the facets for demand. People were speculating maybe be the Fed, but it's actually maybe the stable coin companies that could be buying these bills in the short end. Did you hear anyone talking about stable coins as you're on the ground there? >> I have not heard uh stable coins. I have not brought it up. I also have not brought up hyperl liquid which I feel like has been a miss. Um however what I will say is I think you're right with this treasury twist right so Bessant is buying these longdated bonds right and funding it with more T bills so there's less of this long duration paper if you will hitting the market and and more of short short duration bills and so they're pulling the duration out of the

yield curve so the long end doesn't blow out while they still have to fund this giant deficit. It's now over $40 trillion and is only going to increase in payments if they do rise or raise rates. And so who is going to absorb the extra bills? Well, money market funds, right, and stablecoin issuers. Tether and circle already hold well over $150 billion, if not more, probably about $200 billion in T bills in, you know, bill like paper instruments. So under the Genius Act, which is basically, you know Inmentation phase if not all implemented every new regulated dollar stable coin has to be backed one to one by cash or treasuries

under 93 days. So you get this loop here. Crypto you know starts to move up. There's more demand for stables as borrowing for on-ramp for settlement. There's going to be more stable coins issued. Issuers can buy more T bills. there's going to be more T bill demand which the Treasury then can keep leaning on the front end without the short end kind of exploding which allows them to kind of take some of that pressure off of the long end of the curve. So that's the flywheel. So the secretary treasury is quite literally incentivized to see not only uh the uh total market cap of the crypto economy grow but really the issuance of stable coins to explode. It

is an incremental price insensitive demand for the exact maturity that the Treasury wants to issue. It's almost like they've got a bailout here with with the issuers. And so it's like it's truly an interesting story where some, you know, while some, you know, long-term foreign investors may be, you know, a bit less interested to sit in long duration treasuries, well, all of a sudden you've got the stable coin issuance stack as a structural buyer of short-term T bills. And that's how you keep the dollar rails and the debt buyer base American. And that is what Treasury Secretary uh Scott Scott Scott Scott Bessip wants. And so US becoming the

crypto capital of the world is a funding and a national security move from an global e economic perspective, not just politics. So two things to watch. Stable coin market cap growth and the tail share of the issuance of those stable coins. This is the trade. This is the trade. So >> this twist is less long duration being issued and more short duration being issued due to demand from stable coin issuers. Now obviously we're only talking about $200 billion of stable coins right now. But when this gets to the trillions of dollars, you start to have a really reflexive flywheel where no longer is this a toy for the US

government. It is in fact a lifeline. And so I think that is kind of where the stable coin growth trade is going. And I think there's a lot of upside in names, you know, that that we've spoken on uh as part of our kind of big four. And so that's my kind of stable coin uh bull thesis based on where we're at in the macro environment. >> Well, I think your stable coin bull thesis uh translates really nicely into a broader bull thesis as well. I'll just read you and I know you got to get going here in a few minutes, but I want to read you a section from Catrini where he get he says who buys the bills because of exactly what you're saying. They're taking duration out of the market, right? The Bessant has already said he's going to handle the long end, but he's

going to need to finance this debt with short-term bills. Someone is going to need to to to buy those short-term bills that the Treasury is issuing. And so, here's uh Secretary Bessant on this. Um he says for example we are closely monitoring growth in money market funds and the stable coin market which are both large investors in treasury bills. Money market funds are now about 7.5 trillion having grown nearly1 trillion in the last year alone. The stable coin market meanwhile is valued around 300 billion and could grow tenfold by the end of the decade thanks to the innovation made by made possible by the Genius Act. As money market funds and stable coins grow, so too will the demand for treasury bills. And so this,

I think, puts into into perspective what what we're talking about here, which is that stable coin companies, as a result of creating reserves and backing the stable coins that they issue, are a price insensitive buyer of short-term US paper. And that's exactly what the Treasury needs. The Fed has already said, Kevin Worsh's stance has been that he doesn't want to expand the balance sheet. We've seen quantitative easing before from other Fed chairman and if you know it was a more dovish Fed chairman, they would just buy the bills themselves and they would hold all of these US securities on their books. But he doesn't want to do that. He in his speech said that he wants to have a humble and small Fed and he doesn't want to have a particularly outsized

influence and so he is looking for extraneous buyers of this short-term paper. I ended up actually thinking that him and Bessant are working together on this. And I do think and this was sort of the conclusion in Catrini's article is that the banking system also ends up being like this this cataclysmic wave of liquidity that gets unleashed and then multiplies its lending uh multiplies its reserves as a result of lending out and I think overall making the the monetary system a lot more efficient by the growth of stable coins, deregulation and leveraging the existing reserves and deposits in the US banking system. And the only last thing to mention about how

this stable coin thesis transforms into a bigger, broader bull thesis is like, you know, in order for stable coin companies to buy these bills, they need to issue more stables. Well, what why do they issue stables? What is the primary vehicle is to trade crypto. When crypto goes up, they issue more stables. It is now a matter of national security for crypto to go up so that these stable coins issue more stables so that they buy more of these bills to reserve those stables for the market going up. I mean what else what else do you need? What else do you need there?

>> Rally to commence the the lockout rally will simply continue. People are sidelined. We have a small pullback today. >> We have a small pullback. Maybe maybe the weekend isn't as great as everyone wants. Maybe next week slowed. I don't really care. The bottom is in. We're going higher. This market is now a measure of national economic security. It is the most reflexive market for the fiat debasement trade which whether or not Fed chairman worsh says up down or left or right. The reality is Bessie's buying bonds. He is injecting money into the system the treasury is doing the same. The basement trade is alive and well. I think today's pullback is an opportunity to enter this market. I still think the hyper pump is going to

do extremely well. I think Bitcoin, Solana, Ethereum are going to do extremely well. Obviously, we have a lot of positions in this barbell of store value assets and we have our onchain revenue producing businesses thesis. I think this continues to do well. I believe the onchain business thesis is the new L1 trade. I believe we we we will see the likes of pump trade at 10 cents or higher. We will see hyperlquid trade over $250 per hype. I believe we will see lighter trade over $20. We will see Zcash in the $5,000 to $10,000 range. I have zero reason to be bearish.

We we've been in on the lows. All you have to do is do less and I believe that we are at the precipice of essentially the next large bull cycle and I think it will be the largest that we've seen due to the institutional allocation and that there are still a lot of cryptonative allocators sidelined. Those cryptonnative allocators are next marginal buyers. Then we will have institutional allocators who are smart money as well as high high net worth individuals who are smart money allocate. Next that phase will will be explosive. That'll take us over 150k Bitcoin and it'll take us through a massive massive re rerating of your favorite onchain businesses with damn

good tokconomics. The final buyers always will be retail. they will come in later on and and they will make great gains too and that will be where we kind of have another uh start of a bare cycle. Um but I don't believe that that time is one is impossible to know when and two I don't know when that is. That's kind of why I just said the same thing twice. But I do know that the next marginal buyers are crypto natives who are sidelined. And the following the following buyers who will take us to all-time highs and beyond are institutional allocators who will FOMO and high net worth individuals accessing these products through ETFs in 401ks, trusts, and family offices. So that's our you always got to think about who

your next marginal buyer is. There's a ton of AI money. There's a ton of commodity money. There's a ton of equity money. It's coming in. It's going to push us higher. And I refuse to be bearish here regardless of what Fed Chair Worsh has to say. I'm holding on to my positions. No positions have changed. No positions have been trimmed. And I will continue to hold for the lockout rally. And that's where I'm at. And I'm going to go sign off for three days. I'm going to go hike a bunch, go for a swim in the lakes, sign off, and I'll see you guys on Monday. I hope you guys stay bullish. I am not changing my portfolio positions in any capacity. And I'm looking to allocate more down the risk curve in crypto. Now, I've got my portfolio set with my big names that I

want to hold longer term. I know that there's going to be outsized gains down the risk curve, things like uh trading on FOMO, things like fake world assets, things like uh smaller names, pawns, fake world assets, these types of launchpads that are doing well. Um and and I think that these will be big winners as well with a small amount of the portfolio. Again, we're 70 to 80% in our big names, store value assets, Bitcoin, Zcash, ETH, um a little bit of Salana, and our revenue producing businesses, Pipe, Lighter, um Pump, uh and you know, you can go down the line there. And so, I refuse to change. Uh my view has not changed. I remain very bullish on this market where we are.

This has been a hell of a conference. Um and I'm glad to have called in and I appreciate it. And I don't know if there's anything left from the Fed. You guys can check my ex. They did a full report. I'll keep uploading there as I hear more and more. And uh thanks Rob. >> Sensational indeed. Uh thanks Andy. The what we've been saying on the show is that they are preheating the money printer. Uh so it is uh it it's fun to it's fun to watch cuz they haven't really turned on quantitative easing or or the money printer quite yet. uh they're just kind of twisting this duration out of it which feels like they're preheating it and um you know like you're saying net net new buyers are always appreciated but also crypto is the most reflexive asset class in

existence just more money more liquidity in the system is enough to propel this thing to new highs uh and dude >> preheating phase this is going to be a generational bull cycle for the lads >> yeah it's uh it's the pre-bully thanks so much for calling in man enjoy your weekend have a good time enjoy the mountains take lots of picks And uh we'll see you on Monday. All right, guys. My co-host Andy live from Jackson Hole. Uh I mean I mean if you're not bullish now, when are you going to be bullish? I mean, we're building positions. We're going to talk a little bit more about exactly what's happening in the liquidity landscape. But Bit 50/50, I mean, I see you in the chat. That's

what's happening. Money printer's going burr, right? They're preheating the money printer. This is what happens as we start to adapt the monetary regime. Okay. And so we're seeing it play out in real time. We can talk through some of the mechanics here. And um I mean ultimately uh we can understand what's happening so that we can position ourselves accordingly. And so what we have uh is a treasury twist. And we're going to go through our headlines now because our headlines are are pretty applicable here to uh to exactly this macroeconomic liquidity regime. So, let's go ahead and uh pull

up some of our headlines here. We're going to start with an image uh and then we'll get into uh some of the other things that are happening in our digital asset world. And so yeah, first uh let's see, we're going to all of these are particularly relevant. Um we can go ahead and start with this one. Let's go ahead bring it up which whichever ones you got, Leo. And then uh the order actually doesn't really matter because ult ultimately a lot of these things are moving in parallel. So let's go ahead and bring this up. Uh I mean got to give credit to Catrini. It's a fantastic follow, great research. uh really helps kind of walk through some of the macroeconomic mechanisms at play here. And so what are

we what are we looking at here? And I'll tell you, I mean, this is titled uh the Treasury Fed Accord 2.0. There was a Treasury Fed Accord 1.0 uh in which the Treasury and the Fed are working together. I mean, one of the things that I think is, you know, particularly relevant about the macroeconomic regime, finance in general right now during this administration is that these administrative offices seem to be working together. You know, we have never seen the SEC and the CFTC work together so tightly, right? And work together so well. Similarly, the Treasury and the Fed could be in a spot where they could now also be working together extremely well. extremely

closely in order to support some of the mechanisms that we're seeing here. And so, you know, we heard a little bit about it uh during the segment with Andy, but let's go ahead and walk through some of these mechanisms. And so, Catrini Research outlines uh what he's calling or they're calling this Treasury Fed Accord 2.0. Uh it is a coordinated shift toward more T bill issuance and fewer long-term bonds. Guys, couple of definitions. Bonds are the longdated treasuries. Bills are the shortdated treasuries. Just semantics, okay, definitions here. Let's get our terms right. And so the twist is twisting the yield curve. And it like think about if you're ringing a towel, right? You're

squeezing the water out of it. We're squeezing the duration out of the yield curve. By twisting it, we're squeezing out the duration. We're squeezing out the long-term stuff. And we're going to keep the short-term stuff. And we have to put some stuff in there because we have to finance the borrowing that the government is doing because the government wants to spend money and we have to finance that. And so we borrow money from anyone who will give it to us. And we do that by selling them bonds. They buy our bonds and we give them a bond that says, "Hey, we're going to give you some, you know, give you back your money plus some interest at a later date."

And so we're going to frontload a lot of that issuance. We're going to do it on the short end rather than the long end. We're going to let the duration go. We're going to keep the short-term stuff. And so that means bills are going to go up and bonds are going to go down. Bills, you can see on the left. It's possible that the Federal Reserve could take these bills, right? Uh this is typically colloquially called quantitative easing. when the Federal Reserve buys bills, okay, and keeps them on their balance sheet. We know that Chair Walsh does not want to do this. He's talked at length against this kind of policy and against the idea of quantitative easing in general, he wants to shrink the Fed's balance sheet, not expand it. And so

what we could see is rather than a growth of the balance sheet as these treasuries run off, you know, in 30 years end up expiring and they get their money back and then you know they they kind of run off, right? And they expire. Typically what's h what happens is you reinvest the money that you get from an expiring bond. You reinvest that into the bond market. Well, one thing that the Federal Reserve could do rather than reinvest a longdated off- the-run bond into a long duration bond, you just take that and you just shift it to the short end, right? And so very similarly to the Treasury issuing right bonds on the short end and not the long end the

Federal Reserve as they're absorbing these bonds they can also twist they can also twist the duration out of the bond market the bonds that they're buying and they can just twist towards the short end and in that way they absorb a lot of these T bills as well. So that's the f first part on the left. The second part here is the banking system. the banking system can also absorb these T bills and be a buyer of T bills. Um, Catrini in their article walk through what could happen, which is that uh through the powers of regulation that the Treasury and the Fed have. They could deregulate the banking system. They could allow the banking system to lever up their

reserves and basically have less cash on hand for the amount of deposit flight that could take place and actually hold more money at the Fed or at least use the Fed as a lending facility in the case that they have some sort of liquidity constraint. And if they do that, they can use the reserves that they currently have as money that they can go lend out and then they can multiply it and then they can essentially invest all of this into the short-term bills as well and expand the monetary supply. And Citrini puts this estimate at about 500 billion to1 trillion of cash if this liquidity reform takes place.

The third piece here is stable coins and money market funds. Stable coins, as we've talked about, are price insensitive buyers of treasury bills. They need treasury bills in order to uh in order to back their uh stable coin issuance. Okay? And if this takes place, well, then we're going to see even more buying of Treasury bills. Uh, and again, we're going to take bonds out of the market and put bills into the market. That's what we're seeing happen. Okay.

Um, and that's what we see in this graph here. Um, and the final piece is just there at the bottom where you see bonds are going down. That's the longdated stuff. Fund the government where the market has appetite. Starve the long end. The market doesn't have have appetite there, right? And flood the short end. That's where people basically trade these bills as cash. They use them to back money markets and stable coins. They use them in the banking system. The Federal Reserve can also twist towards the short end. And they can absorb a lot of this shortdated paper which the Treasury wants to issue as a result of lowering short-term interest rates. They need to do that as well as keep short uh

long-term interest rates down as well. Let's go ahead hit over to our next image here. because we're going to also talk about how the Federal Reserve can twist without expanding. All right, they also we need them to also take duration out of the bond market and we need to them to do this but they don't want to expand their balance sheet. Fed chair Worsh doesn't want to do quantitative easing and so how do we achieve the result on the right? How do we get the balance sheet of the Fed smaller, the market duration lower, and the credit capacity for the AI buildout to fund capital expenditures

higher? How do how is it possible that we can get this? And uh Catrini walks through the mechanism. He says, "Well, if we are able to deregulate the banking system and unleash the loan uh excuse me, the liquidity coverage ratio, the liquidity coverage ratio is how much in reserve the bank the banking system needs to hold idle uh in order to facilitate any sort of run of the bank or any sort of deposit flight that could take place, right? uh if you know the analysis says hey you think you know you might get 20% of your cash that might come out all in one day you need to hold

the reserves for that you need to have a certain amount but if you can lower that because you can have relative assurance that you're not going to get a run on the bank well you're going to end up reforming the liquidity coverage ratio and that is going to release reserves that banks currently hold idle right and we see that on number one if you rewrite the rule Currently, you have that light blue block at the top. That's deployable capital. Banks can lend that out. It enters the monetary supply. It enters M2 and it multiplies as it's lent out.

But if you can unlock and and unleash the LCR through this reform, well, then you could free up all the capital that is sitting idle at these banks that they're forced to hold in reserves and can't do anything with. They can actually start to do it something with it. They can put it into the monetary supply. they can loan it out and it will multiply in M2. So then what happens to those reserves? Well, some of that would go directly into T bills, the T bills that the Treasury needs to issue in order to finance the government that they're not doing on the long end. The other part is going to go into new lending and that is going to be where it multiplies and that is ultimately going to be where we see it flow into assets and that is particularly relevant for

digital assets like Bitcoin equities and growth assets uh like AI equities as well as um as well as the onchain businesses that we believe are now fundamentally as strong as some of the strongest equity markets. These are private companies, but they have tokens. So, you won't be able to trade them on the public market, but they are fundamentally some of the fastest growing businesses in the world. Looking at Hyperlid, Pump Fund, Lighter, uh, and and plenty more. These are real businesses with real cash flows, and you can generate value through exposure to these assets. And so the new lending that the

banks are are potentially able to distribute into the M2 ultimately flows into loans. It it flows into investors. It flows into businesses. It ultimately flows into the asset classes that we talked about on the show. All right, that's number two. Now number three, as the reserve liabilities shrink at these banks, as they don't need to hold that capital idle and they can now do something with it, the Fed also starts to tilt. They remix their duration and they go from a longer duration mix to a shorter duration mix.

They could actually lower and or or shrink the size of the Federal Reserve balance sheet and still make this a bullish outcome because they can go smaller and shorter at once. They can decrease the amount the amount of bonds that they hold, but if they twist significantly from bonds to bills, they will still reduce the duration of their mix on their balance sheet at the same time as shrinking it. That's number three. Number four, the last part here is the Treasury remix.

Banks, stable coins, and the Fed all buy those T bills that Bessant wants to issue in the short end. That is going to push yields on those T bills lower because there's so much demand for them. Issuance tilt towards bills. They're issuing less bonds. They're issuing more bills. And the banks, the stable coins and the Fed are waiting in the wings to buy. There's almost unlimited demand for T bills. And that's evidenced through the money markets and the Fed and the stable coins and the banks with the freed up reserves all interested in buying more bills.

Okay? And that's how you achieve a smaller balance sheet at the Fed because they're reducing their balance sheet by not reinvesting all of these off therun bonds. If they do any kind of reinvesting, they're going to do it into short duration paper and it's going to go into bills. So, their duration is going to get shorter and their balance sheet is going to get smaller. Market duration gets lower. Credit capacity at banks and stable coins gets higher. and banks, you know, obviously they have their asset classes of choice. They're going to go into the equities market.

Growth assets are going to do well as a result of higher credit capacity at banks. And stable coins are kind of like the banks of crypto. Those stable coins are going to make it into digital assets. And so, as there's higher credit capacity at both the banks and at the stable coin companies, that ultimately flows into their respective asset classes. Let's go ahead and see why stable coins are such an important piece of the puzzle here. Let's go ahead flip to our next one.

And so stable coins, we're going to walk through how and why they're so important. Um obviously we know that um you know we we we need some of these different industries to buy bills, right? because we're we're issuing more of those uh rather than issuing some of that long duration paper and there is there is demand for it and so if we do get uh a bank subsidy for this leverage cap we get this this SLR relief and uh actually Arthur Hayes has talked a little bit about this as well. uh the SLR is the supplemental leverage ratio and if you can get relief and basically say hey you can you know you banks right Bank of America JP Morgan Chase right

city bank all of these banks if they're allowed to take more leverage on their reserves then they're going to end up investing all of that money into businesses into equities into asset classes into loans and it ultimately makes its way into M2 and it flows and propagates throughout these asset classes so here at the top You see, ESLR relief is going to allow banks to do more with the money that they have rather than hold those reserves idle. In fact, if we do, and this is where I actually want to get our next uh I want to get our next one teed up uh because I want to show some evidence actually for number two here, which is

banks issuing stable coins. If banks issue stable coins, well then they're going to need to make those stable coins genius compliant. And why is it so important that these banks issue genius compliant stable coins? Well, because it's a matter of national security. Genius requires that stable coins are 100% backed by shortdated treasuries. And so right now Tether and Circle, they they've got some shortdated paper. They've got some longdated paper. They've got a mix of other things that they use to back their stable coins. But a genius compliant stable coin requires 100% short treasury backing. And that means that um yes uh they will be

investing much much more into short duration bills. And so that's number two here. If the banks issue the stable coins and they have additional reserves, they can use those additional reserves to buy shortdated bills and use those shortdated bills to back a stable coin. And I actually want to flip very quickly. We're going to flip back and go through the rest of this flywheel. But just very quickly, I want to show you that they're literally doing this. Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Santander, and over a dozen major banks move forward with plans to launch a stable coin.

Okay? And this is exactly the mechanism that they're doing it through, right? So they're going to get this supplemental leverage ratio reformed. They're going to have all of these extra reserves that they can use. They're going to use those to buy the bills that the Treasury is issuing. And then they're going to use those shortdated bills to back a stable coin through which they will put into the market. And then they can capture all of that net interest income on those stable coins, all of that net interest margin. So let's let's flip back. Let's flip back to the rest of this flywheel. But this is literally happening right before our eyes. Catrini also walked through I mean multiple other uh pieces of evidence of exactly this uh pointing to JP Morgan uh reinvesting uh up to

$500 billion into AI and capex uh and they believe that they are doing this and they can do this because they have this unlock of reserves. And so I see that our first guest is getting ready in the back. Uh we're going to bring her up in a few minutes, but let's walk through the rest of this flywheel uh before we bring up Jang Bui from Securitize. And so the third piece here is rewards, not yield. Coin interest is banned. Issuers compete on rewards. This could create some very interesting outcomes.

Um we don't anticipate that uh banks are going to pay interest uh on their stable coin deposits. Uh, and this is something that we see obviously in DeFi, right? But it's sort of masked in rewards and referrals and these different kinds of things. But imagine a checking account where you hold your money that gives you perks. You actually can, you know, if you hold your money at Bank of America, not Chase, maybe you get, you know, a free Delta flight or you get points or you get all these kinds of things. And this is where we could end up with a much more competitive banking system because they're not going to give you yield on these stable coins, but they will give you rewards. And we might even see how the rules of the Genius Act

develop. So rewards, not yield. Uh ultimately the the uh revenue profile of stable coins for these banks is going to be extremely profitable and we'll we'll talk about why. But they won't have to pass along the yield that they're getting on the T- bills to the depositors of the stable coins in their bank. That is that is the core of it. Deposits migrate rewards pull balances from fractional reserve checking accounts. And what this means is that as they pull on this, the fractional reserve, remember, has unleashed several uh uh you know, a lot of capital that was previously idle. And so deposits

migrate from balances in a fractional reserve checking account into stable coins. And about 100% of that goes into bills. And this is what you're seeing in the middle here, where a dollar in a checking account typically goes and generates about five to 15% uh 15 cents of buying power for a bill. Direct T bill demand per $1 of funding. In a checking account, it's about five to 15 cents. In a stable coin, because it's 100% backed, it's 80 to 95 cents. And the banks are going to capture all of that interest. They don't pass it back to the depositors. And then dollars go global. Number six here, prefunded bill

demand travels on crypto rails. All of these things, a lot of these deposits, these stable coins end up onchain. And remember what we say on the show, a dollar onchain tends to stay on chain. This is why we're choosing to invest in the onchain business asset class. We believe this is the next cohort of fundamentally innovative businesses that are fundamentally strong from a cash flow perspective. They are competitive from a multiple perspective to equities. They're some of the fastest growing businesses in the world on their own right. And then you compound that with the effect that we're going to get this onslaught of tokenized dollars flooding the onchain economy. And it's more

likely in our perspective, it's more likely that these tokenized dollars, these stable coins flow into onchain businesses since the dollars, the cash is onchain, it's more likely they flow into onchain businesses, aa tokens rather than flowing into typical equities, right? But obviously, we've got this whole world of tokenized equities as well. The point is, stable coin growth is a benefit to every single onchain business, every single DeFi protocol. It is a benefit to all of the tokenized equities partners, all of the tokenized fund partners, all of the onchain businesses, the pers, the prediction markets, the vaults. As

stable coins grow in volume, we will see a large amount of asset growth on the platforms that facilitate stable coin utility and transfer and movement. And that is the thesis that we're moving forward with. There's a lot of intersecting parts, but ultimately the monetary regime is ripe for innovation. Stable coins are the innovation and they are a matter matter of national security in order to fund the US government by buying these shortdated treasury bills using them as reserves in these stable coins and essentially fixing the US economy. Stable coins are a very very

important piece of that. Um the last piece is what this means. Obviously, you know, more activity in these protocols means more earning power, more fees, more revenue to these protocols and then ultimately a greater profile means potentially more value acrruel to the assets. The other thing uh you know obviously in in addition to the growth in these assets is what happens to drive stable coin issuance because stable coins will buy these bills when they issue more stables. Let's go ahead flip to the last image here before we bring up our our first guest.

The Genius Acts implementation in January 2027 is a major catalyst for incremental demand for Treasury bills. Notice January 2027, right? So, we've got something to look forward to. This is a big catalyst. Harnessing stable coins implicit T bill reserve demand is a compelling candidate. If one is searching for a reason, the administration has been so keen to pump crypto markets. As crypto market cap goes higher, so does stable coin issuance. They literally, the president, the government, the financial system needs to pump crypto higher in order to fuel stable coin issuance. They need to fuel stable coin issuance. In order to have a

price insensitive buyer of short-dated bills, they need to have a short-dated bill buyer so that they can finance the government and keep spending money. Politicians like to spend money. That is pretty much the entire thesis of everything in finance. As crypto market cap goes higher, so does stable coin issuance. That means more demand for T bills, which is monetizable funding for the Treasury. That's it. I rest my case. monetizable funding for the Treasury. As crypto market cap goes higher, more stable coins get issued. That means more buying for short-term bills means more funding for the Treasury means more funding for the government means more funding for the politicians to spend money on

whatever they want to spend money on. Whatever you vote them in for, that's what they're going to want to spend money on. And they're going to do that because the crypto market cap is higher, because stable coins got more issues, because we bought more bills, because now the Treasury can fund their spending. There's a lot going on, guys. There's a lot going on. >> Let's go ahead. We're going to bring up our uh our next guest. We had Andy as our first guest. Greg callin from Jackson Hole. We're going to go ahead and bring in Jang Gui Gui and uh we're going to get her take on all of this. She is the head of issuer growth of securityize and I

have a feeling that uh she's pretty well verssed in all of these mechanics and so we're going to see exactly what happens here. Uh but let's go ahead and bring her in. Uh we're going to bring her up in just a moment. She's been on the show before. Uh we are um going to go live with Jang Bui in just a moment. Like I said, she's been on the been on the show before. Uh she's head of issuer growth of Securitize. Uh Securitize is doing incredible things in tokenization. Um and we just walked through I mean all of the mechanics here about how an onchain dollar tends to stay on chain. Uh as the Treasury does this twist, they're going to need more

buyers of T bills. stable coins can provide some of that buying power for shortdated paper and then an onchain dollar tends to stay on chain. We believe these onchain dollars will propagate into all of the tokenized assets that are available in the onchain economy. And so we're going to bring on Jong uh to talk about it from the perspective of securitiz. See she's ready there in the back. Let's go ahead and bring her up. And there she is. John, welcome to the show. >> Hey Robbie, thank you for having me. >> Absolutely. Uh thanks for coming. How how are you doing? It's been uh we've been chatting Jackson Hole and macro the whole day. Uh did you get a chance to watch what what what do you uh what do you think of uh Worsh these days?

>> Yeah, I mean definitely been a very busy summer. A lot going on and you know it's great to see you guys reporting from Jackson and you know keeping us informed about all the conversations that are happening there and you know the impact to digital assets and the tokenized secure markets more generally. Um but you know it's been an eventful couple months for us. Um and you know the macro environment is definitely very important to what that means uh for the overall digital asset and tokenization space. Um but you know particularly you know we've really been spending the couple months you know launching products going public tokenizing our own stocks um expanding our partnership opportunities. So been very excited uh about the the months uh that has passed and what's what's ahead

for the remainder of the year. >> Absolutely. I mean we are we are big believers in tokenization here. We believe that it is a fundamental uh principle that is sweeping finance as a whole. You guys are obviously, you know, one of the the companies here leading the charge on the tokenization front. So, it's been very cool to see. You've got a number of partnerships that have launched since uh we had you on the show last uh Newberger. This is a $613 billion asset manager. Uh first time serving as a subadviser to a tokenized fund. Let's go ahead start with that one. This seems massive. Maybe you can tell us more about this partnership.

>> Yeah. I know it's very exciting. So we launched uh recently the Newberger securitized highinccome tokenized fund. Um so it's to your point the first product that Newberger has token has been a subadvisor or participate in the tokenized asset space. Um so you know really shows the ongoing trend of you know very large institutional asset manager wanting to make their capabilities available on chain. So we're really proud to be their partner, you know, with their uh with their scale and also their leading fixed income franchise. Um and so, you know, the product itself is a um you know, actively managed fund that will be seeking to generate riskadjusted attractive returns by investing a majority of its assets into high yield

bonds as well as other high yielding fixed income products um fixed income instruments such as CLOS's. Um so it's really a first of its kind. It's a native new fund that is brought on to um service the need of the onchain ecosystem. You know, we built it with uh with the Newberger's uh capabilities in in fixed income uh management and it really was in response to what we're seeing in terms of gaps in the toolkit for onchain investors. Um you know, we've really seen a lot of success in the treasury products that we've launched. You know, we also have a CLLO product and private uh private credit and private equity. Um, so we're just continuing to offer and give investors choice on chain when it comes to new

asset classes, uh, and new investment strategies. >> Yeah. And I'd love to dig into this a little bit more. I mean, you know, when we're thinking about tokenizing a fund, especially an actively managed fund, you know, there's a lot of potential moves and changes that this fund can go through. Are these primarily done through smart contracts or vaults? Are they programmatic? uh what is some of the technical design choices that you've made with this fund and and also you know as we think about you know this this fund in general you mentioned it's you know made up of private credit and CLOS's and some of these different products no sorry I see I see you're shaking I don't want to misquote you but what is inside of it and then also you know does this mean that you have to

tokenize all of the elements that make up this fund as well >> sure yeah so the the fund itself is invested in high yield bonds and other high uh high yielding physic income instruments like CLLOs's and other assets. Um so you know in terms of how we tokenize it so we tokenize at the fund structure. Um so the fund interest itself is being tokenized and that's available onchain uh through uh and have uh you know through the smart contract uh that is available on four different blockchains. So we deploy the funds uh on Ethereum, Avalanche, SUI uh and Salana. So you know available to investors to access across those different blockchains. Um so the the fund um Newberger as the subadvisor um you know is the in um is managing the

portfolio to achieve the risk adjusted returns that um you know the funds investment objective is you know understanding what the investor needs are on chain. Um so you know the underlying itself are not tokenized. So the high yield bonds the CLLOs's today are not tokenized. So that's still being traded in the traditional form, custody in the traditional way. Um it's the fund itself that is being tokenized and you know we see a world where everything moves on chain. So even the underlying bonds and uh and securities move on um become tokenized and then the fund itself is tokenized and you can really um anticipate even greater efficiencies and even greater accessibility once all

those assets move on chain. But you know we're we're incrementally going into these different steps. So you know with this product it's really about making this uh investment capabilities available to the onchain investor in the most uh easy to access way through this through this fund. >> Yeah. Yeah. That that makes a ton of sense. And this is primarily what we've seen so far has been you know it's been centered around cash. tokenization has been mostly treasuries, but but now it feels like we're starting to get a little bit more creative with the assets that we're bringing on chain. You guys, you know, have probably started with, you know, kind of these foundational building blocks and are now starting to maybe expand outwards a little bit more.

It feels like we haven't even scratched the surface as we think about, you know, some of the potential tokenized offerings that we have on chain. Is there anything that you're hearing? Is there still significant demand? We want to tokenize more treasury funds, more more of these bills or are you looking and hearing that, you know, there's demand for some more creative experimentation from these tokenized funds? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, to your point, Treasury is the largest category for tokenized um, you know, assets, making up about half of the 30 billion in tokenized RWAS. So it's definitely uh a use case and a product that really have shown case to onchain investors about their capabilities and uh the demand

behind it. So you know definitely a very big category but investors on chain are evolving. You know we're hearing broadened demands on what they want in in in a investment vehicle and you know we talked in the past about there's very limited number of funds that are available from institutional grade asset managers. So we have the treasury category. We have a number of private credit funds for example your product with Apollo. Uh we have a AAA clo product with BNY stack. Um so those are the few options that are available to investors today. But we continue to hear that they want higher yield product.

They want different types of credit quality that are available. So you're starting to see a diversification need across onchain investors which is why we brought this high income product to market. And our goal is to be able to have all the different uh building blocks of a portfolio tokenized onchain so that uh when onchain allocators want to rebalance their portfolio or invest in a diversified basket, they're able to pick and choose based on what their needs are. Um and you know that's really important to us as we think about filling out investors need and launching new products. That said, we're still having a lot of conversation about additional treasury products coming um you know and like different how do they differentiate with the current offerings

that are today. You know, we this month we also launched a uh another treasury product with Black Rockck that is a a US register fund. So catering to a slightly different audience than what you have for Bidd or VUB that are already existing in the market today. So you're going to continue to see the market evolve. more products are going to come on chain, more asset managers come on chain and we think that's really healthy for the market as um you know tokenization uh the rails continue to mature. >> Absolutely. And this is, you know, fundamental to our thesis here on the show. As these building blocks get get uh built out, ultimately they all sort of unlock the next step in the process because, you know, we we see how

interconnected so many of these assets are and ultimately as we tokenize more of them, it it then paves the way for additional assets to be tokenized and ultimately is making this entire system more efficient. And and with that being said, you know, we've heard from other people that have said basically like the infrastructure is ready like it it is ready to support um a wide breath of different tokenized assets. From your perspective, what is the bottleneck these days to bringing on, you know, the vast majority of funds, asset classes, and and the rest? Is it regulatory? Is it technical? Is it just education? Are you just listening to some of, you know, the investors that are out there,

hearing them out in what they demand? What do you say is the the limiting factor these days to bring more of these tokenized asset classes on board? >> Yeah, to to your point, we've proven that you can tokenize institutional grade products. We've to we've proven that there's utility onchain, that you make the tokenized version of the fund more valuable than the off-chain um you know, counterparty. you know, daily dividends, more automation, more programmatic, like those are all very attractive and we've been able to highlight that as uh benefits of tokenizing. Um, so really to your point, the infrastructure is there when it comes to the technology itself and the ability to integrate into DeFi and you know there are regulatory clarity

already. You know the SEC had um put out guidance that an issuer can choose to record keep uh you know how they manage their their shareholder of records. they can do it in traditional way or they can use blockchain technology. So especially in the US like you're seeing more and more uh regulatory clarity which is what's also have given these asset managers the comfort to continue to to launch more products in token form and securitizes approach and always doing it in a regulated and compliant way making sure all of our entities are reg are are registered and uh adhering to the the rule the securities laws is also something that gave them comfort. So I think we're progressing very nicely from a regulatory standpoint. Um the biggest

bottleneck is really about what is like maturing the distribution and the liquidity framework. Um you know you you look at the market today we're still about 30 billion. So that's a fraction of the overall you know over 70 trillion US US equity markets 400 trillion overall grow global markets. So it's still very small. So when your people are looking at those numbers and how do you really prioritize building for this future of market modernization, they want to see what is the distribution path and framework looks like. So those are things that we're very keen on building out. Um you know we we enter into many partnerships. We're building out education about tokenization to really help mature the distribution

network and make it as frictionless for investor eligible investors to get into the funds as possible. And then the other aspect is liquidity. You know, um you have these assets on chain, how do I trade them? Um and so that's also another piece that we're very keen on building and we've entered into partnerships with you know, Sneeis swap or jump trading to facilitate trading of both the tokenized funds we have and also um the tokenized stocks and and ETFs that will be coming uh as as that market grows as well.

>> Absolutely. I mean, this is something that we're extremely excited about as well. Um, and just before you joined, you know, we were we were talking through, you know, how this liquidity regime could influence, you know, the onchain economy. And it seems like a lot of this starts with stable coins, but it all grows from there, right? Stable coins are kind of like this onchain cash mechanism. Uh, as you know, securitized and other asset classes become tokenized. um you know tokenized funds, tokenized equities, all of this ends up onchain and it's much easier for these for the onchain cash for stable coins to propagate through those asset classes.

Um and so we're even seeing I mean how you know there are a number of banks these days that are pretty much committed once the Genius Act goes live in early Q1 of next year that these banks will roll out stable coins. Um, and once these banks have stable coins, it feels like this is now sort of it's like running downhill, right? Like we've got the acceleration, we've got the momentum and and the dominoes then start to fall. And you know, given that you've tokenized funds and different asset classes across different distribution partners, BlackRock and you know, uh, Newberger, you know, uh, uh, most recently, what, um, what are the commonalities? like what are some of the

threads that you've noticed that you know the all of these institutions want? You don't really need to you know kind of do anything new or or too custom. It's pretty much like hey we've got the recipe we've got the formula we are already understanding of what this institution may be looking for. You know this is a win-win. It's proven out. What are some of those you know already proven pieces that you can now bring to the rest of the institutional landscape at large? At Securitize, we really aim to be the the rails for these institutions to tap into the DeFi and digital asset ecosystem. So, we try to abstract away as much of the operational complexity as possible to them. So, when we uh become

a partner to these firms, you know, we're we're going through very rigorous due diligence for each one of these firms. As you can imagine, you know, they're going through all of our regula, reviewing our regul regulated entities, our licenses, our um, you know, our cyber security and all the things that make sure that we are up to par to be a vendor and a partner to them. Uh, we, you know, us being also a public company showcase our capabilities and our resiliency and the strength in our financials to be here for the long haul to support them. Um so you know one commonality is every company large institutions is going to go through that but what they found in securityize as a partner is we try to make the process to tokenize and deploy the asset and engage

with onchain investors as easy as possible for them. So they see the opportunity in being able to access these onchain investors in a way that doesn't completely disrupt their current business model and framework today. So that that's what gave them the the confidence and the trust in us to you know enter into the market launch products with us um you know work together on growing AUM and assets and and the infrastructure behind tokenization um you know while as because they see that this is where the market's moving like eventually we're just going to talk about this is how market infrastructure is um you know you know in the next 5 to 10 years like that this will be the preferred path for

investors to access. So, they really want to futureproof their business. You know, there's a new generation of investors that are used to trading 24-hour day. They're used to trading um you know, they they're used to being able to self-custody their investments and being able to engage more directly with the assets that they own and have that utilities. So, you know, we're we're helping enable that for them um you know, as they as as their business uh in tokenization matures. >> Incredible. And so would you say that you know this is primarily a a supply side distribution side working with the institutions to make sure that they can access the investors or would you say you know this is you know how how much demand have you seen on chain for these sorts of products and what is the the

investor profile is it primarily obviously we know institutions are the ones that are issuing these products but when it comes to the investors in these products have you seen mostly institutional interest and and does that interest originate on chain or is there another demographic that you've seen that is interested in these products? >> Yeah, I mean we we care about the whole ecosystem. So we very much focus on the supply side and we do it in a way where we're working with very large institution to issue supply that is quality um that is something that investor wants but demand is also very important like you don't want to just launch a token and then it doesn't do anything on chain. you know that the tokenization part is easy. It's the

utility and the demand and the uh uh who's the buyers is that it's most important. So at Securitize we focus on both sides. Um so to your point on who's buying these funds today, they mainly been crypto institutions. So you know you look at stable coin companies um uh crypto hedge funds blockchain foundations u you know onchain allocators who are uh investing in these funds and then you know as we bring on more tokenized stocks or ETFs or registered funds that are available to retail um we're going to see an increase in the retail demand for these access for these products as well. Um, so you know, I it's it started as institutions, but we're starting to see retail become a maker part of the the growth

opportunity in tokenization. And that's really been the onchain investor base, but you're we're starting to have conversations with um traditional more traditional firms that are seeing how tokenized funds can create more utility for them. And so, you know, you're starting to have more traditional financial institutions start to allocate to uh tokenized funds as well. >> Very cool. And I'd imagine that as more facets of their business are tokenized, it just makes even more sense to invest where they already are, which means investing alongside some of those tokenized funds as well. Um, and and it it compounds and there's, you know, that that increasing network effect. Um, you had mentioned, you know, a part that is

kind of near and dear to our heart on this show. Something we spend a lot of time, you know, kind of thinking about and talking about is the utility of these assets because it feels like that's where there's a lot of room for creativity. Uh, and it feels like that is really what is empowering some of these assets to find new use cases. Um, we had someone on the show earlier in the week kind of talking about how yes, of course, there's, you know, all kinds of growth potential. the total addressable market as we tokenize equities and we tokenize funds grows you know by trillions of dollars. But you know a really exciting part is actually the non-skeumorphic uh you know pieces to this which is the things that we can't anticipate uh that

we are really excited about that can also grow the TAM uh in even you know ways that are unexpected. And so what are the current integration points that you have for some of these tokenized assets, you know, the funds and and and the equities? Where are you integrated in, you know, these DeFi protocols right now? And where do you see this going over the coming months and years? >> I mean, to your point, like for an investor to buy a tokenized fund, you know, it has to be more valuable to them and less friction than just buying through the traditional channels that they can go through today. Um so you know we've really spent you know close to the past decade on building out all the different integrations. Um so you know we are connected into close to 20

different blockchains. We're integrated into the major DeFi protocols that are built on top of these blockchains. We have multi-chain and crosschain capabilities so that investors can invest where they want to be rather than being having to only choose um you know a specific blockchain of their choice. all the different oracles, liquidity providers and the overall DeFi ecosystem and and if you look at the funds we've tokenized and even like our own stock that we've tokenized so far, you know, collateral is definitely a very important use case. Um, so we, you know, for example, our own stock recently is has been integrated into loop scale and is an acceptable collateral on loop scale to be able to borrow stable coin against. um you know we have a variety

of different integrations for our funds into these different lending markets so that there's that greater utility for for for that product and then you know even treasuries like being able to offer daily dividends for for the treasury has been something that has created more value for for the the tokenized funds instead of having to like hold the asset for a whole month or a whole quarter. You know, you're able to just recognize your your yield a lot quicker in in that way. So those are the ones we know, but to your point, it's continuing to grow. Um, and the more interesting assets and differentiated assets we can work with uh our our issuer partners on um we can see that that TAM and that use case continue to grow.

>> You know, you you mentioned daily dividends and a lot of what we're hearing about is unlocking idle capital. You know, there there's this happens all across the board. It happens at funds and banks. How important do you think this feature is? Is is this something that resonates as you're talking and educating, you know, the the more traditional financial side of the market is unlocking that idle capital, how big of a of a of an addressable market is that? Yeah, I mean it definitely resonates because I mean that's um that's really one of the reasons you've seen the growth in tokenized treasuries.

Um you know now you know companies can have a more efficient way to invest their balance sheet or their reserve capital and you know be able to the benefits of being able to move that around 24 hours a day even on the weekends um allows you to be to be able to have more to do with your IDO cash. So, like that's been a use case that we definitely are going to see growing. Um, that's what's going to also allow more traditional institutions to start to experiment and and reap the benefits of tokenized funds. Um, so that's definitely going to be, you know, what we see to to to really propel that tokenized treasury market, you know, beyond the 15 billion that we have today.

>> Incredible. I mean, h how I think everyone sort of sees the writing on the wall. We're talking about trillion dollar asset classes. you mentioned, you know, 15 billion in tokenized uh assets right now. I I think the question isn't if, it's when. Yeah. And I'm curious when you think the, you know, ultimately this thing is just going to sort of hit escape velocity. Do you have an idea of like any milestones or how how quickly do you think this will progress? What is the velocity that you anticipate as far as the tokenization of more of these assets?

>> Yeah, I mean, it's already been a hockey stick of growth. I mean you you look at the AUM just like in early 2024 that's like a couple hundred million and now for securityize itself um we're already at 5 billion. So like that you already see a a exponential increase over the past few years because you're you know you you see this domino effect of you know the first few asset manager comes on and they see that they're able to raise assets on chain and then um you know kind of more and more comes on and to your point about that compounding effect of even more and more uh assets become available and then you know we're very focused on getting tokenized stocks and ETFs and more retail type of product so that unlocks even more investor base that comes on. So, you know, we're we're

having we're talking to companies to asset managers and, you know, they do take some time to go through all that process to to get signed off for tokenization. So, you're going to start to see in the next, you know, 12 to 18 months like really an influx of additional issuers that are available to the market. And then the the infrastructure of distribution and liquidity that we were talking about that should also continue to mature in the next few months um as well like as venues like the New York Stock Exchange who is building a trading venue for tokenized securities come live and other uh institutions that will come live. So I think 2027 is going to be uh a big uh year for for the tokenization industry.

>> I I think so too. I think so too. And and you know we can kind of feel it. uh obviously the things happening in the macro world but also the legitimization of the industry at large. I mean we've seen you know the CFTC has this innovation advisory committee we've seen industry leaders up there with the president of the United States um as it pertains to securitize you know the SEC is kind of the the chief regulator of securities and so that is kind of the regime that you know you guys might be interfacing with more often. I'm just curious, you know, how important has the SEC's current regime been? Obviously, we all know, you know, Gary Gendler and his reign of terror, but you know, when it comes to uh the current administration

that's in there in in the SEC, I mean, how helpful, how important has it been? What is your experience been like with the SEC so far? Yeah, I mean um the current SEC is definitely, you know, with the crypto task force and also with Paul Atkins at the home of the SEC, you know, are is definitely very keen on enabling um access to digital assets and creating rulemaking around responsible innovation in digital assets. Um and that's something that, you know, we we view very positively and we we have a lot of engagement with the SEC. Um you know, our president Brett Redford was a former SEC director of trading and markets as well. Um so you know it's definitely they're very important but I I think securityized approach has always been very regulated and compliant so

that we are resilient no matter the uh the political regime that is in place. So we ensure that we're going out and we're registering all of our entities. We're not operating in any regulatory gray zone. you know, um, Congress acts are always helpful to have in terms of promoting the overall digital asset ecosystem, but because we've always want to do it in the current rules that are today, like it's we're still able to continue to to grow and accelerate even if some of these u rulem uh continue to get delayed, which we've kind of seen with the SEC innovation exemption or the clarity act vote that continues to be uh delayed. But you know from from our operating model because we're very much like let's make sure we can continue to

um operate under the current framework like it hasn't been as impactful for us. >> And I mean you're absolutely right innovation exemption and clarity act but we did see this uh reggg crypto sort of proposal that seems like it was maybe in response to the clarity act getting delayed. The SEC said hey we're going to go ahead and you know start putting together some rules anyway. And I realize securitiz is in a in a position where you know you guys are going to follow the rules of the road you know by the letter of the law. But speaking just you know on the industry as a whole do you think that you know red crypto is setting our industry up for success? Are we directionally headed in a positive positive direction?

always positive and having an administration that is very open to engaging with practitioners and the industry helps in terms of you know being able to understand what are the rules of the road and what's permissible and what what might need more engagement with the regulators. So I I think overall clarity has been very helpful um you know that's really what has accelerated uh adoption uh over the past few years and even more of these rulemakings and approvals will will drive the industry forward. Beautiful. Well, uh, Zank, thanks so much for joining us. I, uh, I really do appreciate you're a friend of the show at this point. You're becoming a regular and, uh, congratulations on all the success with Securitize so far. Would love to have you on again sometime soon

and just talk about as the tokenization super cycle continues. Uh, you know, it's fun to look back in hindsight sometimes and just see how far we've come. >> Yeah. No, absolutely. It's always fun to be on with you, Robbie. I appreciate the time. >> Thanks so much. We'll see you again soon. >> Thank you. Bye. >> Have a good weekend. Bye. Bye. All right guys, well uh that is a word from one of the leaders in tokenization. As you guys know, this is very very core to our thesis here on this show. Uh we have a tokenization thesis. There are some companies and some assets that are in a position to be primary benefactors of tokenization. Uh we talk about them at length every single day. Uh but the fact remains they are legitimizing the industry. Uh we've seen the SEC put

together more clarity. you know, reg crypto, innovation exempt, clarity act, CFTC advisory council, all of these things are directionally headed in the right direction. It's just a matter of how quickly we get them. Uh that is sort of what we're watching on a daily basis. But again, we see the macroeconomic liquidity regime is favoring hard money and scarce assets. We know that side of the barbell is in a favorable position. Bitcoin, Zcash, Gold, ETH, all in a great position on that front. And then when it comes to legitimizing the industry, right, and we've got these onchain businesses that are in a position to do incredibly well. I mean,

you know, we'll we'll get a little bit deeper into this on our next segment with Austin Austin Bareric. We can go ahead. Let's flip that headline there. Someone's sleeping at the wheel. Uh there we go. uh and we'll get a little bit deeper into this because uh the onchain businesses are some of the fastest growing businesses in the industry and these are the assets that are the primary benefactors of the legitimization of the industry. Um, and so as this industry gets recognized in a positive light, uh, as it continues to progress, uh, and become recognized for what it is, cheaper, better, faster, uh, more efficient. Ultimately uh these things are integrating and this is

creating a wave a wave of assets that are propagating throughout the protocols that have been around and become resilient become lindy onchain for a long time. Uh this is causing significant product market fit activity revenue earnings and value acrruel to these assets and these are the businesses that we're watching out for. Uh so we are in a position now to anticipate uh where the flows will come from. There is kind of like this broad macro liquidity flow just M2 growing debasement trade. Obviously we know that side of the portfolio well. But for this next segment we're going to be talking a little bit more about the other side of the barbell. uh the real onchain businesses, the fundamental companies

with product market fit, generating revenue and benefiting from the legitimization of the industry because now they are able to approach and sell and pitch some facets of the financial world that they previously did not have access to. So, we're going to go ahead and chat about this with our next guest, Austin Barak. Uh we're going to be joined by him in just a moment. we can go ahead send him into the back room whenever we're ready and get him up on stage. Him and I were chatting a little bit about the pump fund multiples. How durable are these revenues? I think that is a example to tackle. Um but uh but there's a lot of companies.

There's actually more than you might think that are uh are falling into this category. And so we're going to talk a little bit about this with Austin. Um you guys can see there on the headline Austin is at Rockaway X where he uh is the CIO. He's been investing in this industry since 2013. Uh early early uh VP of finance at 21 shares and a partner at Coin Fund now at Rockway X. Uh Rockway X roughly $2 billion to Lana Fergus focused firm acquired Relayer and rebranded it the Rockway X liquid opportunities fund with Austin as CIO. uh he's been all over the revenue meta. Uh you know, pump fund has

been uh you know, a primary benefactor of this. Again, there are multiples here. These are some of the fastest growing companies in the world. We happen to have a liquid asset that we can get exposure to. Uh whereas typically private companies don't have that. And so we're uh we're analyzing these businesses, treating them just totally based on the fundamentals. But the fact remains there are real onchain businesses out there with PMF generating real revenue and acrewing that value back to the liquid asset. Uh so we're going to bring on Austin to talk about it uh from the Rockway perspective.

Austin, welcome to the show, man. It's a pleasure to have you. >> Hey Robbie, great to be here. >> Absolutely. Thanks so much for coming on, man. How uh how is uh the beginning of the bull market treating you? >> It's been it's been really fun. It's uh it's always kind of creeps up on you and you never really know when it's going to start and then all of a sudden things start changing and you know there's a period over the last couple months where bad news wasn't really impacting prices. We saw that with the Clarity Act stalling and Ethereum and other assets continuing to go up and then you know crypto is a macro asset in many regards.

of the Treasury announcing the purchases of the long bonds and even sale stopping some of the Bitcoin sales last week and then you know fundamental assets that are just at a deep dislocation from their real value are are starting to find uh price discovery. So it's been it's been exciting. >> It it certainly has been it's been a lot of fun like you're saying especially the last couple of weeks. Um, you know, Bitcoin is starting to uh reverse the trend that it had. Bitcoin to gold, also Bitcoin to S&P. These things are starting to flip and look a lot more positive. Uh, and then obviously we've got, you know, this macro liquidity regime that is becoming a lot more accommodative. Seemingly the debasement

trade, hard money, scarce assets are back on. And then you've got this entire world of onchain businesses that are generating real revenue and acrewing value. And that sort of forms like the portfolio construction thesis as we've been talking about. But I don't want to shoehorn us into any one of those areas. I just want to hear from you first just generally. What is your thesis these days? What are you seeing out there? What are you paying attention to? And as you're thinking through portfolio construction and allocation, yeah, where where are you paying the most attention? >> Yeah. So it's really two main themes and the expression of these themes has changed over time but the two areas of the market that have been and I think will continue to be the strongest are

the intersection of crypto and AI and 247 trading. intersection of crypto AI meaning you know whether it's agentic usage of block chains whether it's tokenized compute and inference whether it's structured data for frontier labs there are a number of ways in which they intersect and and I think the market is starting to identify the winners and then on the other side 247 trading encompasses a lot of things for a while the main expression of that view was hyperlquid right And what's interesting about Hyperlid is they had a poly market moment of sorts earlier this year, particularly with silver. And that's when people realize

the the value of having real world asset markets on chain and now being the fundamental source for price discovery. Whether it's weekend activity for commodities or you know like silver and oil, whether it's preipo, that's where SpaceX uh trading was was really uh found its footing before the the stock even went public. But now we're starting to see that across other areas. And you know, I I think about pump actually in that same vein as 24/7 trading. And I I think the people are missing the bigger story when they look at it just as memecoin trading. And really what Pump is building is social trading and they're going to expand across. We've

seen this with the mobile app, but they're clearly looking to expand across chains and across types of assets. But it's really the venue where you talk about your thesis, you express your view. People are monetizing like they monetize on Twitter but with financial views with callouts that launched recently. And um I think these are really the two themes AI and 247 that will continue to attract flows. >> Yeah, I I mean we were going back and forth on pump fun a little bit. Um, I it was it was great timing because I had uh Pedro Miranda who's at the Salana Foundation on the show just that day.

Uh, and we were talking about, you know, Pump Fund. Obviously, we know it's one of the fastest growing businesses not only in crypto but in the world. Uh, it's making money handoverfist, but it has such a low multiple for a company that's growing at its pace. And we think that's because the market is treating memecoin trading as cyclical. It's not a durable asset class. It's not a durable market segment. And so all of this is leading to a low multiple. But I think you and I agree here that this is something that is ripe for change because you're pointing to social trading and 247 markets as the revenue opportunity here, not to memecoin trading. So maybe you can help just

untangle why Pump Fund revenue is durable. It's not cyclical and it actually is more indicative of a broader market segment than people give it credit for. >> Yeah. So on the durability and cyclicality, I I actually look at those as two separate things. It it's has a durable base and we've seen that over the last two and a half years since it's been live. If there's protocols that have been a flash in the pan in the past, let's use OpenC as an example. They saw their revenue pull back meaningfully well earlier than two and a half years. And what we've seen in Pump Fun over the last 6 months really before the acceleration in the last few months

is that they found this base directionally around like 7800,000 maybe a million of revenue a day, 3 to 500,000 of buybacks. That that's the minimum even in the depths of the bare market. So what that's shown is that they have a durable user base that likes to trade the products that they offer and now they're expanding. So I think that durability will only strengthen as they you know have product growth. On the cyclicality right now it is actually fairly cyclical because memecoin trading is cyclical by nature but actually that makes the opportunity even stronger at current prices because we're at cyclical lows. You know, if you looked at where

we were at the highs in in daily revenue, that was 67 million a day in end of 24, early 25. Now we're at two when people think it's a lot. So like I think we're going to get to just on the memecoin side, $15 million days at some point in 2027, which would be seven and a halfx where we are today. >> I mean, that's that's pretty massive. And so right now Yeah. Please. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then and then on the other side, on the social side, they're expanding to so much beyond memecoins. The way I look at it is if you combined Robin Hood, Reddit, e Toro style copy trading and Twitter discussions and allowed people to monetize their views.

And that's really what Pump is building. And when you view it from that lens, it's a lot easier to see it as a hundred billion dollar business versus a $4 billion business. And so, do you think people are looking at it and it's like philosophically misaligned? Is that why people aren't realizing this? Because I think we've been talking about it long enough that people should realize this by now, but they're not for some reason. >> Yeah. So, I I think there's a couple reasons. Um, and and to to be clear, I I wasn't necessarily the biggest bull until the last couple of months where I changed my view and I I think as an investor, that's one of the best skills you can have to adjust your priors based on new information. But, you know, the the team didn't have, you know, very

active comm so there wasn't a lot of information about what was happening. It's memecoin ccentric and or historically. And the interesting thing is about most crypto investors and people on Twitter aren't actually memecoin traders. There there's a much smaller overlap than people realize. So they saw this durable activity and they question like kind of ridiculous questions like is this real even though it's actually verifiable on chain. And in reality, it's just there was maybe like a 5% overlap between the people that were evaluating Pump as a token versus the people that were actually using the product. And and that's converging more as they expand into different assets and and expand the

product experience. Um and and then the the other piece is there there was um aversion to investing in you know what was perceived as a casino business but then you know when you think about what are other casino businesses Las Vegas Sands Win MGM pretty highly valued. If you look at FanDuel and DraftKings, you know, people that do sports betting may not want to call it gambling, but kind of is, or even zero day to expiry options, which is a lot of the activity happening on Robin Hood. So, when you start to think about social trading and speculation as a use case and all these things that have changed and then the growth over the last couple months, I think that's what really led to this turnaround.

>> Yeah, absolutely. And I think it is indicative of, you know, this broader trend that's forming. uh we call it the revenue meta uh on on this show, but it's also just the fact that we have real onchain businesses that are that have achieved product market fit and they're generating revenue and there's a class of those companies that are passing that value back to token holders. And so just open-endedly, I'm curious, have you found anyone else anything that resembles this from a revenue profile? maybe not at the same scale but percentage basis when you know you look at a company that has product market fit and is passing that value back to the token. Is there anything on a relative basis that you think you know

maybe doesn't get the credit that it deserves? >> Yeah. So I I would I would kind of break that down into a couple categories. There's the token controls the revenue the assets claim on IP versus being directed back to the token in the sense of dividends or buybacks. And you know, Pump is is is really unique in that they're generating so much revenue. They're growing so quickly. They're valued so cheaply. probably the closest comp is something like Hyperliquid, which is I mean they're not growing as quickly. The the RWA volume is, but they're still in growth mode. So So the revenue is hasn't been accelerating quite as quickly, and they're also trading at a higher multiple, but that's

incredibly compelling as well. Um I I I think Venice is a really interesting one and this is going to be controversial because they do have equity and token and I'm saying it's it's in this stance but they are probably the best crossover consumer story that we've seen in crypto that most of the users don't even know that there's a crypto element behind it. 99% of the users that use Venice just use it for the LOM product. They do most of their customer acquisition through Instagram, Facebook, Tik Tok ads and they have this programmatic buy and burns based on particular KPIs and they burn buy and burn tokens based on those

KPIs and you know they've introduced new ones over time. It's grown insanely fast. So revenue has grown 7x so far since the beginning of the year. I have it getting to over 300 million of revenue in uh in 2027. So that that's one that's maybe a little bit more misunderstood since the the equity and token conversation. Uh that's one. Another that I like a lot is Grass. They're not doing any buybacks right now, but they're generating a ton of revenue and growing really quickly. And you know it's that's one of the examples where you know while you'd like to see token go uh sorry value go back to the token on the other hand if reinvesting in growth means that you can direct more

to the token in the long term then that's the right decision and you know that was also part of why pump reduced their buybacks from 100% to 50% so that they could grow. Yeah, and and we realize that, you know, a lot of these companies are still incredibly early. The industry at large is still incredibly early. And so, it just doesn't make sense to always pass that value back to token holders, especially when there's a lot more opportunities out there for growth. On one hand, maybe those tokens were launched too early. But, you know, on the other hand, you know, there's still a lot more room for those tokens to grow and someone can express a thesis, you know, in these early days before a lot of that value does acrue.

When when it does come time, you know, for a business to acrue value to a token, you know, and and and share it with stakeholders, do you think buybacks are kind of the ultimate answer? Do do you think it's the endgame or do you think like you know whether it be you know more regulatory clarity from the SEC we end up with dividend like direct dividends of these revenues or some other value acrruel mechanism? Do you think buybacks are like just tried and true? They're the way that this thing should go or do you think that there's another value acrruel mechanism that might make sense given that you know these are these are tokens and not equities?

>> Yeah, so I think there's a couple of ways. Um, and it it it's funny and and I I I'm guilty of this my myself that we we try and reinvent the wheel, but equity markets have been around for hundreds of years and have gotten a lot of things right. So once we have the clarity act or something similar to that and it's clearly defined that the value goes to the token in in those cases then I think a combination of buybacks dividends um are are really the the best way to do it and then have retained earnings that sit with the company to make investments.

>> The one other thing that I think you can do which is really interesting which you can't really do in equities because these are tokens. So let's not just stop where equities are. Let's take those earnings but expand >> is loyalty programs. And I think there's the opportunity to do cash back in the form of tokens to your most loyal users to allow them to participate in the upside. And that ends up being a form of distribution but just to a different stakeholder. >> Okay. Yeah. Very cool. So like almost like corporate airdrops.

>> Yeah. It's like um le let's let's let's envision, you know, I think Tesla's a great example of this. They wanted to start a robo taxi company and compete with Uber, like on the consumer side. If you got a little bit of Tesla stock for every time you used a ride, how much people would use it? uh I I think customer acquisition is really powerful there but also you can have all sorts of mechanisms for customer retention and yeah that's uh I think something that that we'll see the really smart teams move in that direction uh as a way to bring value to the token but but also to strengthen the fundamentals.

>> Yeah. Yeah, that makes complete sense. I think that would be very cool and I'm I'm very you know I'm looking forward to some more financial experimentation because sure we've gotten every memecoin under the sun and you know it's great people are monetizing attention and that's phenomenal but you know we it feels like we've come kind of a and then there there's a lot of innovation happening on you know the regulatory front with tokenization. We're tokenizing asset classes, funds, and securities and uh you know different sort of equity profiles and these sorts of things and that's all great too. But it feels like we haven't really gotten like pure financial experimentation in a while like a real breakthrough. Maybe it's because the infrastructure is already sufficient and reliable and

resilient enough where it can support all the asset class. We don't need anything new. But it's like that was always the that was kind of always what led to these net net new innovations. >> That that's actually what brought me to Venice in the first place. Originally, I I was reading a long post in January that um Eric, the the founder, wrote about Deem and I was digging into the the uh tokconomics because originally it was just VVV and you locked it, you got some amount of inference and then they created this separate tokenized compute token that gave you $1 per day into in perpetuity of inference. And I think that's one of the really interesting experiments that we've seen so far. But yeah, I'd love to see more of that because,

>> you know, it's it's the surface area for experimentation is is is really big. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and you're right. I mean, Eric is one of those guys. He's been around a long time. You know, he's got the right ethos philosophically, and so it it, you know, is no surprise that, you know, when it comes to getting creative, uh, you know, he's he's one of the guys that does it. Um, you know, there's only a few onchain business segments that have found product market fit. like you know there's more than zero and a while ago it was zero and now there's maybe you know eight to a dozen that are viable and there are some one-offs but by and large it's like well we've got pers I mean hyperlid and lighter and making you know real money and passing that back to their token

holders uh we've got launchpads right uh those guys are doing well pump fun obviously the leader in that category so pers launchpads stable coin companies Athena recently you know has done incredibly well uh so per launchpad stable coins the prediction markets have PMF but they don't have the liquid token I I mean what are the c like categorically where do you see outperformance happening you know as we're thinking about onchain businesses we're thinking about which ones are going to generate revenue and then also you know the ones that are going to pass you know revenue and value back to their token holders I guess you could also pass you know put decentralized exchanges unis swap and aerod drrome both are doing you know some element of of revenue and passing

it back to token holders. And so I mean if you start there maybe there's some that I missed but you know decentralized exchanges per stable coins launchpads any that I missed if not or even if so out of those four where do you see the c like which category do you think will outperform as you know we kind of enter this this next uh cycle if you will? Yeah. So, it's um it's hard to say because the the category is different than the particular asset. You can be really bullish on the category, but you know, maybe it's not the right asset or maybe the asset has already moved a lot, but the ones that I think are going to do really well. So, obviously per the markets, traditional markets are moving 247. It's coming on chain. There's price

discovery. There's real product market fit. Per novel product versus futures and options. So that definitely um I I I would say social trading instead of launchpads and I think launchpads are an element of social trading but but I think that's just a clear direction that we're headed in. One category that that you didn't include that I would add is NEO brokerage. So that's Etherfy as an example and that's really just combining all of these onchain products whether it's borrow lend stable coins yield using that money credit cards trading to create more of an encompassed financial product something like you would get at a Robin Hood or a new bank or a Revolute

but using onchain services. So that that's one that I'm incredibly bullish on and and then um you know I think the doc deck side will be very interesting. Um spot trading is going to increase on chain. Excited to see what Ethereum does as or not Ethereum rather a drrome does with its launch on Ethereum and and also you know the tokenized stock and >> yeah the the one other thing that you did touch on is um I think yield is going to do really well. So right now >> Athena and Pendle are probably the two best expressions of that but and that's one that's also growing secularly but we're seeing cyclicality as well where when activity comes back in markets

yields go up and that sort of thing is really good for for the Athenas and pendals of the world. >> Yeah m makes a ton of sense. Um and so you think I mean just from the sound of it you know like uh as a result of you know tokenized equities really tokenized everything feels like it's coming on chain as a result of you know greater regulatory clarity if we do get you know trillions billions more in assets on chain one of the thesis that we talk about on the show is that those assets end up flowing into these protocols right typically defy protocols are the ones that kind of subsume a lot of that you know the the liquidity onslaught.

And so you do you anticipate a resurgence of DeFi, resurgence of yield? >> Yeah, I I definitely do. Um I I think it it'll be interesting because with this competition between uh Morpho and A that we've seen and pulled ver versus isolated vaults and then also just different vault strategy how money markets grow because that's traditionally been a place where where a lot of capital has has been parked. But yeah, I I I think when we look at the the TVL numbers, we look at the amount of capital that's generated via yield there, those are going to only

increase over time. It's going to take a little bit of a different shape and and I think a more positive shape than than last cycle where last cycle was driven by points farming and you know how much are I layer points going to be worth etc. and that being the yield where I think now the yield is going to be real yield. >> Real yield. Yeah, that that would be fantastic for uh for the vibes. Um >> and you know, how do you think that those tokens can kind of overcome some of the >> what what do you want to call it? Maybe corporate bloat that they were forced to go through with the whole labs and foundation separation, going offshore, coming back onshore. Like it feels like they've got to unwind a lot of the the value acrruel structure that they had in the previous, you know, Gendler era. You

know, obviously I I I tend to agree with you. I think DeFi is going to absorb a lot of this liquidity and end up, you know, with significantly more activity and earnings and revenue. But do you think from a value acrruel standpoint, do they do they have it? Can they can they turn it around? >> Yeah, absolutely. We we saw in their recent um token holder call, EtherFi announced programmatic buybacks. We have that for most of the perpetuals exchange. We see that um in in the main dexes. We um [snorts] you know we saw Athena recently announce one buybacks but two that they were actually that they bought out all the old token holders that that were sellers and they you know cleaned up their cap table

which which is pretty cool. Um, so yeah, I I think that's going to just be another lens through which to help identify what are the strong assets worth owning because you can look at fundamentals, but if you get that double check mark on the fundamentals and there then you can feel a lot more comfortable owning it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Um, and then zooming out just one more layer here. Obviously, you know, we were kind of we're kind of, you know, unpacking some of the categories uh within digital assets or crypto, but you know, obviously a lot of people have actually gone and left to AI and they've gone to robotics and gone elsewhere. And it's understandable. Obviously, it's unfortunate to see people kind of leave

the ecosystem, but you can't blame them when, you know, the the AI buildouts going on and, you know, these things have been rocket ships and, you know, crypto is unperfor underperformed, but now it feels like the tides are shifting. Do you think and you know we talked about outperformance within digital assets but when you're looking at you know you're looking at commodities equities and crypto do you think it's you know digital assets you think it's time that you know this catch-up trade mean reversion outperformance or or do you still think maybe equities are kind of in the lead here and we get a little bit of a catch-up but not as much as you know we would like to to call it outperformance.

Yeah, I I think there's still a deep dislocation between uh prices and and fair value. And you know, at the end of the day, investors go where there are returns and once they start to see momentum, they'll they'll start to follow. Like, >> you know, a AI is is one that's easy to point to. But a lot of people were trading silver in January, and there weren't a lot of silver traders among retail before that, or at least not to to quite the the same extent. So if if you see the the fundamentals come back, if you see the real use cases and the crossover, then then I you know I I I think we're going to see traders come back. So it's really just about having uh that underlying value and and right

now I think there's enough assets to point to that that will capture the flows and and the great part is it's it's something where you know that these assets are so obvious. There's Pump growing more than 2x in Q3, trading at five times earnings that um you know I I I think the the returns are are still pretty strong to to come from here. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think so too, Austin. Man, uh appreciate the chat. Uh you know, we we covered a lot of ground and uh it feels like there's just more depth, more value out there. we just got to go look for it because I and honestly I I appreciate these market conditions and I

appreciate you taking the time too because it feels like this is kind of where winners and losers are made. You know, obviously you've been here for other cycles and you know everything moves up in unison, everything moves down in unison and I'm sure we'll kind of get there in these market cycles coming up as well, but it feels like right now we're in this like pre-bull phase where you can still kind of place your chips accordingly and position yourself for outperformance. So, appreciate you sharing your insights and uh would love to have you on again a little little deeper into the bull in a few months. >> Yeah, absolutely. It was great to be on. >> Let's do it. Thanks, Austin.

>> All right, guys. Show goes on. That was Austin from Rockway X. Great insights on the market. Obviously, chatting about the revenue meta and then uh you know, we had plenty to cover as well all across the docket. Um you guys know the portfolio construction thesis. Well, it is a combination of onchain businesses uh with PMF acrewing revenue, generating revenue and acrewing value to those tokens. Uh Austin is bullish on AI and 247 markets as are we uh Venice 247 markets per uh asset class as well as the launchpads and the decentralized exchanges, right? This is ultimately where we're headed and these things have significant product market fit. Uh and so this is an asset class that's just

ripe uh ripe for positioning. Um and then obviously you know the other part of the uh portfolio thesis here is hard money scarce assets benefiting from uh the macro uh accommodative monetary policy. Uh and then obviously the industry getting legitimized by the CFTC and the SEC and uh you know all the way up to the White House is benefiting the onchain business side of things as well. So, I mean, the show the show goes on here. We're going to continue to roll right through, but as always, great insights from Austin. Um, our next guest is Scott. Uh, Scott from Coin List is going to be

joining us in just a moment. And so, we are going to bring him up in just a minute and keep rocking. We're going to run all the way through this finish line all the way through into the weekend. Hope you guys are having fun out there. Hope you're having a great time because we certainly are. Uh yeah, Wars kind of maybe dumped the market a little bit, but we're kind of just chopping around 77 kind of just poking around under 78 a little bit. 777 ETH around 2425

Hyperlid holding above 80 Zcash right around that 800 mark. Yeah, I don't know if we uh if we really dumped here. It just kind of seems like this is uh you know, we're just chopping around a little bit. Just chopping around a little bit. Nothing too crazy. Uh we're going to bring up Scott in just a moment. Uh he is CEO of Coin List. and we're going to chat with Scott here. Hope you guys are having a good time. Freedom guy, very bullish on Pump. Good to see.

All right, let's go ahead and bring in Scott and uh close off this show with a bang. Little Miss Gun in the chat. Great to see you. As I mentioned, next up on the show is Scott Keo, CEO of Coin List. Coin List is the token sale platform that ran launches for Salana Filecoin and nearer and now has more than 12 million users. That's a lot of users. It brought public token sales back to US investors in 2025 with double zero, first one since Cadana in 2019 and has spent 2026 expanding beyond tokens, launching passage and

partnering with Superstate to distribute natively tokenized IPOs and followon offerings from US public companies. This is an example of a crypto company that went mainstream. I'm excited to chat with Scott um CEO of Coin List. On August 18th, the SEC proposed regulation crypto assets, its first real offering regime for tokens. We're going to get Scott's perspective on it. Let's go ahead and bring him up. Scott Keo, CEO of Coin List. Welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you, Scott.

>> Thanks for having me. Excited to talk. Thanks for kind >> Absolutely, man. Thank you so much for being here. Um, I mean, it's been it's been a hell of a couple weeks, that's for sure. Uh, we were chatting uh Jackson Hole today. Kevin Worsh Bessant, we were chatting last week and then obviously you know we saw uh industry leaders shaking hands with the president uh you know industry leaders at up there with the CFD CFTC in innovation uh committee. Um so it's been a big couple of weeks. Just curious what you've been tracking, what you've been paying the most attention to uh before we get into some of the nuts and bolts here.

>> Well, first I would say like crypto prices are moving up in the right direction. I think that's like really exciting for everyone. Um, that's probably the biggest thing. But then the reg the red crypto that SEC put out a couple weeks ago or two weeks ago now, um, I think that's going to have a huge potential impact and what happens with Clarity over the next couple weeks, couple months, whether that actually gets passed is going to have a pretty big impact as well. So th those are three things I'm looking at. >> Very cool. Well, let's start with Red Crypto. Um, we covered Clarity Act in detail as it was leading up to, you know, the potential vote, which I think we may get in September, but ultimately, you know, these, uh, uh, these politicians are on recess now. And so, it feels like the SEC came out with this

sort of in response like, hey, we don't really care clarity act go through or not. We're going to go ahead and make some proposed rules anyway. So, maybe you could tell us about what you found in reg crypto and then we'll talk about the implications on the market for it. >> For sure. Um, yeah, definitely the SEC move forward. I don't know if this was coordinated behind the scenes, you know, without clarity passing, but they have a lot of ability and have had a lot of ability to make their own rules and they've finally taken some of that action. You know, there's some limitations to what they can do, but it's a really great step forward. You know, one of the things that the industry, Coinless in particular, has always been looking for is how do we fit crypto into the broader world of investable assets? and you know public

company registration doesn't fit for you know Bitcoin or Salana or any of these things and this is an attempt to address that while also attempting to give you know builders and developers who are building these networks at their early stages the ability to go from oh I'm building this thing this is this is something that I need to do I need money I need capital I need I need to go forward with it and then not have it be trapped in this kind of old securities regime which they frankly can't comply with and the regulation doesn't really make sense for them. So, what's the two most important things are the two new exemptions that exist um for uh crypto companies to raise capital from US retail investors. That's the startup exemption and fundraising

exemption. And then the other piece is this concept of transitioning from an investment contract into a nonsecurity over time. Um and so this was kind of both of these were addressed within clarity differently. Um and this follows a lot of the stuff in clarity. It's not identical, but those are the two big two big things. Uh you can raise capital from US investors and even if you raise capital, it doesn't mean you'll be a security. Your asset will be a security forever. >> And and so when we're thinking through implications for certain companies and and and market segments here in the industry, I take it, you know, the first fundraising exemption is going to primarily benefit those who have not yet raised capital. Um maybe you can just

explain a little bit more in detail like what are the market segments whether it be L1s or you know D5 protocols that benefit from the second that transition from an investment contract into a non-security. Is there a particular segment of the industry where you believe those companies or those tokens are most fit for what this regulation is describing and are positioned for the most benefit if this regulation, you know, ultimately does get enacted? >> Yeah. On the on this, you know, fundraising exemptions, that's typically for companies that are probably pre-launch. It doesn't inherently preclude someone from doing something post-launch. Um, but I think it's more for, you know, earlier stage companies,

even the $75 million fundraising exemption. You know, it's it's more for how do we distribute tokens into, you know, potentially our users hands prior to the launch or at the launch of those tokens without running a foul of securities rules. Um, and so that's that's really big by itself. The transition is is also quite interesting. I think it actually could apply to almost everyone in the industry if they want to take advantage of it. Um, and they are going to want to take advantage of it. It basically is conditioned as far as we you know have read it so far on basically the you are removing yourself as a developer from the future development of this network and that's

based on your kind of statements of what you're going to say. So if you lay out a road map or your white paper saying we're going to build this new network or this new app and now you know it doesn't have to be an L1 it could be it could be something like you know unis swap or whatever and as that you know period ends either you've built all the things or you're saying okay we're not going to build this next thing and at that point it's like this this network is now in the hands of the people to to own to operate to govern to do all these different things. So it it can cover a broad range of of companies and it's not limited inherently to uh someone who took advantage of these new fundraising exemptions. It you know it's applicable across the board and it's trying to and

that is important because unis swap or whoever you know these protocols that exist um for a long time they didn't have an opportunity to use this exemption. So you know and and there's no action inherently required by them to kind of fit into it. It's just kind of the statements and and you know fact patterns that exist. There is a form you can file with the SEC but it's not at least in this draft it's not obligatory to do that. >> Got it. Okay. And so that's going to help transition uh protocol or a network into the hands of the people for lack of a better term. Uh and then like you said it's kind of up to them to do what they want with it. I can also imagine sort of a a company that uses both of these exemptions like you said in the

transitionary exemption. You know, someone starts out with an investment contract and then transitions into a nonsecurity, you know, as they sort of uh decentralize and hand off the network. But even if that is the case and they start off in an investment contract, sounds like they can raise up to $75 million without implicating any accredited investor laws or maybe other securities regulations. And so the fact that they're investment contract is it you know what what is the relevance up to $75 million? What else does that implicate for them?

>> That's a really great question. So actually you can raise even more money than that in you know in theory. There's a bunch of existing securities exempt like registration exemptions like regggd reggg s which are widely used today both for venture equity and uh for you know existing companies reg lets you raise from non- US you know investors they can be retail regggd is the accredited one um and so you can mix and mix and match these exemptions you can raise 5 million from US retail under the new exemption you can also do a reggg ss offering offshore to non- US investors and a bunch of those are not capped so you can leverage all of them um at different points in time if you want. Um the investment contract piece and that

transition period is one that I think is like really one of the sticking points of this. You know, it does provide a pathway to transition, but it's not clear in that transition period. You know, it's still considered a security. So, you know, maybe the token's not live, but it could also the token could be live and you still haven't finished all of your development of the network and and stuff like that. If you continue to build out the network as, you know, kind of, you know, solo developer or you you you have the majority of control or you've promised people you're going to build stuff out. And if that's the case, that means, you know, Coinbase as a regulated US exchange can't really trade. I mean, now they trade equities, but like in principle on their like

standard spot crypto exchange, they can't trade that token um as an investment contract. They need to know that it's a commodity, you know, so they can trade it alongside Bitcoin. And so that part, you know, that intermediary step between, oh, I'm no longer an investment contract or I was at some point and then I'm actually formally exited is going to be a little bit confusing and not clear how to handle. that's not going to preclude Binance from trading it because they're they're kind of outside the US and they're outside of the kind of US nexus. So, I think that's going to be one really interesting spot to to look at and and how people really adopt this new these new kind of rules and and what what actually happens.

>> Yeah, I I think that's a helpful insight because uh you know, ultimately the people that are making these decisions need to be well aware of the implications of these things and walk through some of these examples. Um, and so I'd actually love to do that just on the fundraising one because Coin List is, you know, that's kind of your bread and butter is you've helped, you know, several several of these companies uh raise funds uh and do public token sales, you know, for several years. And so, you know, how have you gone through the process here, right? Like you you guys were pretty fundamental in this token sale space. Um and then kind of you know through the Gendler era you know things have evolved and now with the current regime maybe you can just can you just take us through some of the

the highlights and lowlights and the trials and tribulations of that journey and ultimately where you find yourself today. >> Yeah for sure. Um yeah Coin List got started way back in 2017. Um we're actually a spin out of a company called Angelist. um protocol labs which is the team behind falcoin uh had come to naval robocon and said you know basically how do we do a token sale compliantly within the US that was the first saft as far as I know you know for better for worse and basically they raised they raised capital you know issuers can raise capital without any you know broker dealers or anything like that on their own um and that's how they norm like that's how normal venture fundraising is done um so we you know they ended up

crafting and we were, you know, this new SAF agreement, um, simple agreement for future tokens, they raised, you know, $260 million, um, during that like 2017 ICO boom, uh, that we may never see, we will likely never see again. Um, but, you know, it's kind of in that moment, it's like, oh, maybe there's there's a real company here, um, and people want to do this. And um we spun out and started to do a whole bunch of these uh with different projects really supporting them providing the tools and the infrastructure for them to go out and do their you know fundraising reach a bunch of investors. Fast forward to 2019 2020 kind of time frame uh we entered into you know the Biden administration Gendler the rules were be you know the rules have always allowed

for people to do that kind of fundraising. wasn't different in 2017 than 2020, but the SEC was very active in their enforcement against these companies, you know, all these different companies around the world. As a result, no one actually uh wanted to do any capital raising in the US at least from you know kind of normal investors. Maybe maybe at a few VCs but the VCs also all set up shop in the BVI or Cayman's or you know whatever and so >> we actually you know were ready to support them at that time but no one wanted to do it. So everything between 2020 and 2024 and those were some of the most you know in some ways some of the most successful long-standing projects

that we still see today like Salana or Near you know a lot of those entirely excluded US investors from their from their tokens and you know that sucked uh that wasn't great. Um but as we as we came back into this you know the new administration uh really you know flipped that on their head there as the SEC currently as you as you already know has been very proactive in wanting to support and create a pathway for you know these things to exist in the US. They're you know stable coin laws are already in effect. you know, you have all these different things happening and so the rules haven't really changed between 2017 to today until maybe this proposed set of rules, but no one wanted

to touch the US. And I think that's that that's really what has fundamentally changed. You know, we've done a ton of amazing, you know, worked with a ton of amazing companies over the years, a ton of amazing projects and, you know, frankly, there were a lot they were very unfairly, you know, treated by the SEC over the years. Um, you know, so this is this is really huge about face and I think what the SEC is doing is great. It's bringing a lot it's going to bring a lot more transparency, disclosure, more clarity, allow people to build inside the United States. I mean, that's one of the specific requirements of the larger exemption, the $75 million one is you have to be a US doicile company to access it. You can't do it from offshore.

>> Yeah. Very cool uh that that they're doing this and bringing this back on shore. I think a lot of people have uh you know they missed out. They changed their lives. They you know either moved offshore, moved their companies offshore. So it it you know it has created a significant impact on these founders. Um quick side note I'm just curious how did you get connected to Naval and uh do you have any war stories uh about building out uh Coin List from Angelist? >> Um so I joined I joined Coin List uh after we got founded. I joined in in 2018. Um, I was working with a a venture firm called Accomplice based out in Boston and we actually led the seed round into Coin List. I ended up joining afterwards. Uh, so I missed the the

Filecoin uh launch and I joined just in time in 2018 full-time for the market to totally implode, which I think is the story of like so many uh so many crypto people is, you know, you get you get wrapped into all the hype and then by the time you actually make that full-time commitment, you're you're out. Um but the question is whether you stick around for the long haul. And I think, you know, I really believe in in this industry and what we're doing. So, it's been uh it's been great. >> Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad you stuck around too through that 18, you know, 2018 pair market. It was a a rough one, but uh you know, there's plenty of people that dipped out for AI this cycle and now I think they uh they're going to buy a lot higher. Uh and so we're we're

going to see. Uh but I I want to talk actually something that's been happening a little bit more recently. Um you know along with the SEC red crypto stuff, but as well you've been working with a couple of these companies that have I've been calling it like uh corporate bloat uh or bloat debt or regulatory debt. I I'm not really sure what you want to call it, but this idea that, you know, because of the regulatory regime, we've ended up with this, you know, very wacky split between uh equity labs companies and foundations offshore. Um, and it's created kind of this dynamic where uh the couple of examples that come to mind are Centrifuge and Across where they've

actually considered taking their token private, I guess, is the right way to think about that. Um, and it sounds like maybe uh you and Centrafuge are working on something like this together now. And so I'm just curious how that's going. You know, what are the pros and cons? Because I think a lot of companies find themselves in their boat. They're kind of thinking through what their options are. And it's pretty probably pretty confusing to navigate uh given that they found themselves in this in this pickle. And so maybe you could just, you know, kind of unpack and explain, you know, what these companies are trying to do and the pros and cons of doing it.

>> Yeah, for sure. I think it's really an interesting kind of industry development across the board. This like equity conversion process because you know two things are happening simultaneously. It's one is how much do we value tokens that don't have any revenue connected to them or don't have any like you know actual value acrruel mechanisms and then also we're getting all this RWA expansion across the board which is bringing real equities you know not just you know like public companies fixed income all these different things on chain and so those two things are kind of converging together which is there's a you tokens are really valuable in certain circumstances which is, you know, you need them to coordinate

decentralized behavior. You know, security of L1's is the best example of that. But not all the tokens that were created, you know, necessarily fit into that kind of bucket. They are kind of a proxy for for, you know, for equity. And why have the proxy when you can kind of have the real thing? And I think that's like a big motivation for, you know, a number of these companies. those two you mentioned, you know, have been very public about it, but there are tons of other companies that are, you know, and projects that are thinking about this like what is especially as they've pivoted from what maybe whatever their original idea might have been where the token was a key component. Um, but it is a mess. It's it's messy but not that terrible to overcome if you want to do

this. I think you know the the real thing that they're trying to accomplish which is is is ultimately tie the value of the thing that they've built which is in you know sometimes you know fully decentralized network sometimes it's some you know something else and make sure that that value pool gets back to the ultimate kind of token holders or the investors and the supporters who've been behind it for many years. And so you know building this construct to take the token private uh and convert those those uh tokens into equity allows them to tie back that kind of value acral mechanism in a in a kind of in a clean way. You know behind the scenes it is a lot of legal structuring but you know I

think I think it's a good industry development over over the long term horizon. And I think we'll see more of that and then it's going to really even more accelerate you know with as we get more RWAS more you know just in general equities on chain you know the big limitation of equities is that they're not you know freely transferable they're not uh you can't use them as like you know in an incentive for you know like like an airdrop or you know fees for payments or things like that but you know that may change in you to some extent that may be more feasible.

Certainly tokenized formats of those make it easier from a mechanical perspective of moving you know tokens around the world much easier than moving you know a piece of paper through an old database. So I think we're going to you know the regulation would need to catch up to some extent but I think that's you know it's very plausible that uh that we're going to move in that direction at some point. >> Yeah. Yeah. Very very cool because uh I mean obviously we've seen you know the RWA buildout. Uh I mean it feels like every show we find ourselves talking about uh this thing this tokenization super cycle and it started with stable coins but you know that's kind of just now the lifeblood. Um and it's fueling you know tokenized equities, tokenized

funds and then you know it creates this institutional FOMO that ultimately just get this gets this momentum moving in such a way that you know everything else kind of follows along and we get this network effect and compounding uh of more things tokenized creates the the need or necessity or demand for tokenizing even more. So um it it feels like I mean we're just continuing to accelerate in this direction of tokenizing assets, moving them on chain, they flow into all these DeFi protocols. They propagate, you know, across all the blockchains. Um and everything rer rates, you know, much much higher in terms of an addressable market. Um the last thing I want to I want to chat with you about is uh this partnership with Superstate because you mentioned RWAs.

They're doing a great job. I had Robert on the show earlier in the week, spoken with Jim a bunch of times and so just curious uh on what you guys got going on and uh something that our audience can watch out for. >> Yeah, for sure. Um we're doing a lot on RWAS. I mean the tokenized equity is definitely a part of that as well. Superstate, we're working with Superstate. Uh we recently also announced something with Ono. Our goal you know ultimately what we hear from the tokenization platforms asset issuers is to how do we expand distribution of these assets you know across the onchain universe for the regulated ones like or like the more reg like super states or issuer owned or however you want to define it you know one of the challenges is there's you know actually compliance

sitting on top of it um and there's a whole bunch of other stuff that you need to do and wallets you know neo banks around the world you know even defi protocols aren't really well set up to have any type of compliance regime sitting on top of their front ends. Um, and also there's t unlike stable coins where there's kind of one token standard like ERC20 plus all the others. Um, this the standards for all these different RWAs are pretty different under the hood. And if you actually want to support all these things, you need to uh one have the compliance regimes that built are built for each of these providers. That's really annoying to do.

We've done it a bunch. And also, you need to have the like purchase flows, all these different things embedded. So, we're bringing all these RWAs to our users. So, we want we're going to end up supporting, you know, you know, almost all of them. You know, our goal is to support every provider that we can. Um, because I think the future is everything is going to be tokenized. And as we were doing that, we realized, oh, other people actually could use this thing. It's such a such a pain in the ass to actually go and build this. like someone else could actually do that. So, super what we're doing with Superstate is they're working directly with you know asset issuers, equity um you know equity companies who want to bring their assets into a tokenized format, their equities

and so users can you know investors can come purchase the tokenized format similar to what would be available to like institutional uh investors like in these ATM offerings usually at a discount to the traded price. those immediately get tokenized. The investors own the direct equity. Um, and this also applies to IPOs or any of these other things. So, those are coming soon. Um, the funds are also, you know, going to be available. And the same is true for a bunch of these, you know, uh, different platforms, you know, that, you know, securitize all those. We want to have all of those on on and available through for our users, you know, globally. Um and also for anyone who wants to connect and integrate and get that in one

integration. >> We had uh Zang Gui from Securitize on the show just before you. So yeah, I mean this is just you know it's dominating the airwaves. It's dominating uh the industry. Um and it's great because it feels like it's part of the legitimization of the industry. Um both at the regulatory level, you know, these things are getting hardened and more secure and then ultimately you know there's higher quality assets that end up on chain. um and you're helping bring them on chain and I think you know hopefully and it's not going to happen overnight but over time you know the the community um starts to evolve and the perception of this industry starts to evolve so that it it doesn't feel as sketchy scammy because it you know these

the people that come into this industry aren't getting churned right and I think that has kind of been what's put a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths is like they come in you know they you know they have money in FTX and it gets rugged or they get scammed in one ch way, shape or form or another. But once it's just the same technology and asset classes that they're accustomed to, you know, I I think that um we have a long way to go, but ultimately we will improve the perception uh of the industry. So, uh appreciate you and the hard work that you're doing with Coin List to to bring this to light and uh really appreciate you spending some time on the show today.

>> Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely. We'll see you again soon. Thank you so much, Scott, and uh have a good weekend. >> Thanks. All right. All right, guys. Well, that's it. Uh, that was Scott Kea on tokens becoming equity. I mean, you heard what he is doing uh potentially with the Centrifuge team uh about you know, taking their token private or you know, putting that uh into a format where uh you know the the equity would actually be able to acrew value. Uh right now we are kind of regulatory blocked from doing that. Um and that's it. That's today's show. I think you guys, at least in my chat, you're begging to continue, but we're cooked. I mean, Kevin Walsh

this morning, Secretary Bessant, the industry is getting legitimized. Our bags are dipping. That's what's going on. So, we're going to we're going to cut it. We're going to go to the weekend and uh we've got a lot of work to do in order to really pry this thing back into a bull market. We're in the pre-bull. They're preheating the money printer, guys. I'm building positions. I'll just tell you, I am building positions. I'm buying dips. Uh that is what um that is what I'm doing personally. I think I'm going to go buy the dip right now.

Have a fantastic weekend, guys. We're going to be back same time tomorrow or excuse me, same time Monday. And uh we're going to keep things rocking and rolling. Uh another fantastic week coming up next week. Then we're going to be in person in New York. Then we're going to go to Singapore. We're going worldwide, guys. Couldn't do it without you. Shout out to all the guests that we had. Shout out Shout out to everyone in the back and uh shout out to all you guys in the chat. Much love. Stay bullish. [music] [music]