LIVE Hivemind: Crypto Treasury Companies, Sui Hack & Solana’s New Consensus

Transcript

Nothing said on the hive mind is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is strictly forformational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our own opinions, not financial [Music] advice. Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of the Hivemind podcast. This time we're going live, trying some something new out. So, as always, the goal of the podcast is to provide an inside look into what we like to call the deli hive mind, bringing together some of our brightest minds from each of the divisions to share insights, alpha, and ship posts. Today with us, we have

the usual cast, Cedarus, who heads up our institutional research arm, Jan, who heads up our managing partner, Delphi Ventures, and ventures associate, Duncan, also known as Flood Capital. I lead Deli Labs, our protocol R&D, focused on incubating and accelerating new web 3 primitives. All right, it looks like we're live. Shalla Yeah, maybe everyone should go tweet this just to make sure we're not just talking to ourselves. No, no, we're we're we're live. I see it. We have 27 29. You can see the number clicking up there. Oh, no way. That's dope. Yeah. Welcome, guys. You can actually see there's two watching on YouTube and 34 on Twitter. I wonder though if on Twitter it's just like uh

if it's like in their section or if they click into it. Anyways, how do I go on to because we should probably look at these comments. People are going to be all these comments are about some shitcoin which is like the majority. These are the majority of our XAI 42P. Xi42P. Yeah. Changed a bunch of people's lives according to the comments. Duncan, our our shitcoin scavenger. What say you? Should we ape some some XA42P? Sounds like another one of Elon's kids.

Yeah. All right. Should we start off with markets? Uh, alts are getting wrecked right now. What's What's happening? Who wants to Who wants to start maybe on the the latest with markets? Yan. Uh yeah, we had the the fake out temporarily on on uh courts blocking tariffs and then that got undone in 12 hours. Um seems like yeah the the the majority of the bid has been coming from these treasuries uh the company treasuries buying um considering we haven't really seen a great deal of all strength and then the the stuff that we have seen I

guess thinking about ETH uh has been on the treasury announcement and and kind of probably some front running of it. So yeah, th those seem to be the primary driver and and then you have these like periodic dips in BTC dominance when when alts go for a little run, but the second BTC pulls back, the bid is gone everywhere and you get double digit candles, double digit percent candles down. Yeah, this is like the story of 2025. It's just like BTC dominance grinding higher. even during the terror stuff, right? Like BTC's bounced back to new all-time highs and I think only like major coin was hype who made new

all-time highs, but it's even down like 25% off those already. Yeah, I think like ETH has been not bad over the past like month. Soul has been pretty bad. It's basically Yeah, it's basically just BTC and hype. I think the meme was like BTC hype soul. Now it's basically BTC and hype right now. Started off as hyena, right? Hyena was all you needed. Yeah, that's not Yeah, soul's been pretty weak, which is interesting because you have a lot of those treasury plays buying soul and buying like the lock soul and everything. Yeah, they haven't. Yeah, I got with like an intro to these treasury plays like uh I think there's one

popping up every like second day now. they're doing these these these treasury plays. Um there's obviously the OG was was Micro Strategy, then there was a bunch of people doing it. Um yeah, Trump announced one. There's like MetaPlanet in Tokyo. There's for so there's soul strategies and stuff. Maybe Yan, you want to like just summarize what they're doing? There's also a lot of people saying this is like the next existential risk for for crypto or the next bare market is going to be caused by I guess like liquidation cascades of these treasury vehicles. you want to like ceue it up and then give your thoughts on it?

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, equities have this natural gravity going higher from the the, you know, bi-weekly bid from 401ks and retirement accounts. Crypto kind of has the opposite scenario, right? We're we're long-term bullish, but you're kind of always thinking about, you know, who's going to be bidding in the next couple months. And the story has been these treasuries buying, right? And so it's it's important to kind of understand how these things are are capitalized and and and I think that helps you kind of understand the the length to which this can last and what happens.

So why are people giving these companies money to to buy uh these assets? So the if you look the primary buyer of the convertible debt are are uh convertible uh arbitrage or convertible debt ar funds right. So, so what what they do is they buy convertible debt and then they'll short equity. They'll short the equity and and kind of um and and that's their their general exposure. There's a lot of kind of legs to how they make money, but the important one for this conversation is is volatility. So, you you've always heard sailor say we're selling the product is volatility and and he's right. it what like how it actually manifests is basically so these funds buy the convertible debt and and then

short the equity and so um they're they're kind they're delta neutral but what they'll do with this volatility is they're they'll harvest the vault. So the convertible debt position is debt and then a call option on the equity. So as the equity goes up they need to short some stock and then as the equity comes down they will buy they'll they'll like reduce the short by buying. So you know as their the the debt position increases in value they'll short more equity to to get delta neutral and and then conversely they'll buy. So what they're actually doing is selling high and buying low right and and so they're kind of clip like what's called as as uh uh gamma clipping basically. So, uh, gamma scalping rather. So, what what they're

doing is they're constantly buying low, selling high, and the the more volatile the stock, the better it is for them. So, they're not super concerned about the actual price itself, but more so the the the the volatility of the product and and that creates an opportunity for them. And these are buyers uh, you know, you have your citadels, your millenniums, they all have their kind of specific strategies within their multi strategy funds. Then you'll have convertible debt or specific funds and and so this is is really attractive because this product is very volatile and so they're able to generate a lot of a lot of returns on it and they're the primary buyer of this convertible. If you look each time that's that's who the buyer is.

Um what's also unique about these uh about like Micro Strategy in particular is that they have this leveraged ET single stock ETF. So there's a 2x leveraged micro strategy ETF. So on top of Bitcoin volatility, you also have this thing adding to the volatility and and so basically, you know, so the convertible debt arm funds are are suppressing volatility, right? Because they're they're buying the stock when it comes down and selling it as it goes up. But the ETF is actually exacerbating volatility because you put in a 100 bucks into this ETF, it has to go borrow 100 bucks to go long. When Micro Strategy pumps 10% the the position is now uh $120 of equity, 110 of debt. So

they need to go out and borrow 20 more dollars of equity of debt and buy micro strategies. So these levered ETFs are actually buying tops and selling bottoms and and they are exacerbating the volatility which is feeding into the the the the harvesting that the convertible debt arm funds can do and and just that's why they keep buying. So like there's basically an so far what seems to be an endless source of demand for this convertible debt. Um and and and and you know even more so like they'll they'll offer these uh the convertible bonds at with with crazy high strike prices. And and the reason that's attractive for you know it seems kind of

nonsensical if you're looking at it from the surface, but the reason being is is you know when you're selling this debt the the the strike is a is a is a call option, right? And so if it's really far out of the money, it's very cheap. So it allows these buyers to actually pay less for the bond and have more price appreciation and other ways they can generate return. So they're basically the primary ones buying and and yeah, it's been you could see like short interest kind of go up in lock step with all these issuances because that's the game that that these conver that our funds are playing. but they're going to keep buying because the the the returns for them are are mostly volatility based and and and to some degree Bitcoin but um they're less concerned really about that.

Yeah. And then the other piece is the equity which is like the main the main component for for Micro Strategy has been the equity. I think I just looked up they've done 7 billion 7.3 billion via convertible debt and then they they own 3% of the Bitcoin supply. Like Micro Strategy owns like 2.8% 8% of the Bitcoin supply right now. Yeah, but it's it's kind of just like another ETF in a sense. It's not like Sailor himself owns all of that, right? That's where I think people get scared because they're like, "Oh, Sailor owns 3%." Voting shares, so Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. I guess the risk the risk with Micro Strategy is that it would just trade at like a steep discount and then shareholder activism would kind of like try and force liquidation, right? Under what? Yeah, exactly. So that's what I wanted to maybe dig into. Obviously a lot of these have different debt structures and they're not always transparent like the the Salana and ETH ones. But for for Micro Strategy, which I guess is the the one most are based on under what circumstances would they have to sell their Bitcoin. Uh as far as I understand, they would literally have to get sued by shareholders, right, to sell their Bitcoin because the convertible just converts to equity. And I guess if at some point the equity is trading way below um like this thing is trading way below net asset value then shareholders

can sort of demand that they sell some Bitcoin and buy back stock. Is that basically the the the way this would go down? He he's kind of mentioned that he doesn't want to do that but I think you know if if you're thinking about so they always quote this like Bitcoin yield and and the yield is basically the the increase in Bitcoin per share for a holder, right? And so that's how they they they think about yield here. And so if you're trading at a discount to NAV, then it makes sense to issue uh to sell BTC to buy back stock because that increases your Bitcoin per share. But he I think there's more of a like that that would be the the financially engineered perfect way to do it. But I think there's also kind of the tribalistic I

don't I'm not going to sell Bitcoin. It's the game is only accumulate and that like you know as far as he's always said that that's what he's going to do. But obviously you have a plan until you get punched in the face and so who knows what happens when um when it actually trades at a at a discount. Yeah. And and also on the convertibles like they have to hit the strike in order to convert into equity or else it like stays as like a debt liability. So like probably there is some theoretical liquidation price but it's got to be really low and most of the stuff is 0%. Yeah. So there's no like you know debt service issues. But it's Yeah. micro strategy I feel like is probably less of a worry than like as long as the market keeps putting these massive premiums on

treasury companies and they're going to keep on like new ones are going to keep being announced and I think in order to differentiate themselves like some will take on more leverage and then you get into a situation where you could actually like have to liquidate the Bitcoin and this like negative reflexive loop and like even some some like the sole um strategy ones have said like if they start trading negative to NAV like then they will sell the soul and and repurchase the stock. So I think that it's kind of this thing like this is almost like the new lowflat IFDV. It's like free money to launch these right now and everyone is launching them and a lot of these new ones like their shares haven't even actually been issued or like the the new equity isn't even tradable yet. like this SBET uh ETH

treasury play which is up an insane amount only has like a million shares outstanding or something and they're going to issue like you know 50x that like to uh actually fund the the ETH purchases. So like it's trading an insane premium right now, but like the shares the new shares haven't even been issued and like are freely tradable. So that's going to like come down a ton. We're kind of in this like Goldilocks period of like these things trading at insane premiums, everyone rushing to do them. Like I've heard there could be ones for, you know, other major assets.

So I think in the end probably there's something's going to stop this and that's probably when some of them flip to discounts because you can't just like have this perpetual printing machine forever. So I think you get them in every in every jurisdiction, right? That just makes sense because you tap into capital that can't participate in these. But I I think you know thinking about what puts an end to these not saying it won't happen sooner but I think one really big test will be once the debt starts to mature right because if you have this endless source of convertible debt that doesn't actually create any dilution that just means they get to continue buying and so as an equity holder you know for some

prolonged period you get to have increased yield right like you get non-dilutive capital that that boosts your Bitcoin per share amount. So that that kind of keeps the premium going. Um and that is basically like one, you know, time bomb is going to be when the debt starts to mature because Yeah. Yeah. If the debt matures and it hasn't converted yet, then it's like all right, like are we going to issue new conversions? Even conversion even conversions though too, right? Like Yeah. Like they themselves would be a lot of downward pressure on price. Yeah. So yeah. So conversions would lead to people selling and potentially this trading at a discount, right? Which is what can then force them potent to potentially sell the the treasury

assets. But it seems and obviously that gets priced in advance, right? Because you like Bitcoin price somewhat reflects this bid. So like as that starts to come due, you you'd anticipate there being front running of selling and and then you get the reflexibility downward. It seems not as bad as people are saying just given the fact that transparent that's not cryptocolateralized. It's collateralized by equity. There's like I don't know the way No, but this is the I think the way it gets bad is that lenders who have been pretty um tight on credit this cycle start like lending against this these assets as collateral. Um and that's kind of how it could get dangerous because that's kind

of the GBTC thing. right? Is that it was used? It's not just the fact that it started trading at this massive discount. It's the fact that it was used as collateral for billions of dollars of loans in the So, you're saying the equities will be used as collateral. Yeah. Like if people start borrowing against ma uh master or all these other ones, right? Like if lenders start extending credit there, which I don't know, we'll see. I don't think they at least the brokerages are like pretty pretty risk. Like I maybe there's gonna be some other way to do it, but like the brokerages themselves are like pretty like have pretty high margin requirements on on these things.

This one guy said once you get past three or four, they can't get any uh there's no new product offer and can't get good debt terms. I think that's like fair criticism that the the later of these ones probably have worse debt terms than like Micro Strategy is going to have the best that's the one the most liquid. That's the one people like to own the most, right? So yeah, eventually they're going to have to like some of these are going to have to sell crypto and it could go in the other way. Yeah, the counter is that a a lot of these funds that really want to participate have concentration restrictions on single name issuers. So they have more appetite to deploy but can't necessarily. And so as more of these pop up, they can just deploy into other areas.

True. the and it's got to be weird working at like Micro Strategy or like this ESB thing now and like literally your all your work like has literally no reflection in the stock price. Yeah. But you if you have equity in this you just you just your equity just went up 25x if you work at this company like you own the equity in 5 days. Yeah. Like but they're going to get diluted by like 19. You can just sell it now if you're an employee. It's like Yeah. interesting setup. I think ESB's losing like four or five million a year.

I guess it's pretty meeting this in the It's a small number to lose that you kind of want. It doesn't matter if they make money. It's just if they lose a little amount, I guess that's fine. Yeah. You just you you allocate some portion of the raise to clean up the business to reduce burn go forward. Like if you have some debt or whatever. I know I said on the last episode I didn't think the ETH one would be that interesting to people just because there's the ETF. Um, do you guys and I feel like the Soul ones will be more interesting because there's sort of no way to get that exposure on on on the market right now like the UPEX and Soul Strategy and stuff like this. Um, do you guys agree with that? Would you predict that those soul ones are going to get

more flows or Yeah, how are you thinking about it? I mean, you know, if if the flywheel, one of the flywheel, like yeah, we mentioned one of the flywheels being buying discount, the other one being just the the demand for convertible debt, which I think to some degree is going to be a function of of asset volatility. Um, and and just bullishness on the asset overall. So, I could see ETH getting some. I'm like, there's no way it doesn't get some, right? There's just going to be too many people. It only takes a handful of of kind of buyers of of the converts to then short the asset.

So I I can imagine they'll get some. I don't I don't know if it'll be to the degree that um like BTC gets. Yeah. ETH is because these things haven't really deployed anything yet, right? So all this ETH strength is just front running. Soul has the Soul ones not deployed? I think they they have but not not uh in massive size. They're so like you've had the announcements, right, that they're they're putting together like a billion dollar shelf, but that doesn't mean they've actually raised the money. It's just the filing to do so. Yeah. Like do you think some of the soul weakness is people selling soul to then do this or like to do the convertables potentially? I think like a lot of the

meme stuff is off. You think it's just unrelated? I think it's two different buyers. Yeah. Yeah. Uh the meme stuff is like falling off pretty heavily on Soul though. So like do you think that that I feel like that's kind of been one of the reasons that it's hype too strong right the vision was like um soul is where you build onchain NASDAQ and and right now hype is kind of taking the lead there which I think is hurting hurting the soul narrative. Interesting. Yeah. Maybe do we want to touch on actually maybe we we can go to the sole upgrade this week or I think plasma actually is a more interesting

topic. I don't know if you guys looked at plasma at all. I know we looked at it for ventures back in the day and and past which is maybe why I'm salty. But does anyone like I I I made a post on Twitter kind of asking like what's the what can because I don't know if for those who don't know plasma it's sort of like a stable coin spec like a stable coin chain backed by tether right um and the idea or what people are saying is that it's like it's a hedge for the kind of it's a hedge it's like an EVM chain that you can do free USDT transfers So there's a few other things they us token and there's like some other like

little things that people mentioned but I think based on like I there was a lot of views on the thread a lot of people responded and like none of the none of the fundamental things were really really made sense like USDT being a gas token like you can do that on any L2 if if there was real demand for that people people would do it and and you'd see it make a this is basically or gas no this This is this is this is what it is. Tether has seen how much Tron is making. Yeah. Off of having the Tether chain and they're just like, "What is the point of having Tron do all these USDT transfers?

We can just do all those themselves and we'll just make those free and then we'll build a whole like DeFi ecosystem around it." That's the kind of way I look at it. Like Tron is some weird Tron is this weird outlier where they actually make money off of stable coin transfers, but like in the long run, you're not going to make money off of stable coin transfers, but it's something that like every chain needs to have. Like even take Salana for instance, right? Salana needs to be a good payments chain and like a good stable coin chain, but the amount of money it's going to make off of stable coin transfers is like irrelevant, right? It's incredibly small. So, this chain is just kind of going one step further and they're just straight up making them free. uh but all the other applications on the chain they're still

going to make money from. And so that's kind of the goal. It's like take all the transfers away from Tron because why just give them all that money and then we're not going to and then if this DeFi chain becomes like you know you get a lot of these interesting new apps there and everything and then there's like more USDT minted and all this stuff. I don't know they have like basically the brand to do this. Um, I think people have kind of shown over the last couple years that they don't really like, you know, Hyperlquid is like god $3 billion in a 34 multise. It's like people will use products that they like um and they like trust Tether and so

this is just them. Every single crypto app just ends up like verticalizing, right? Um, it's kind of just you you start successful in one area and then you kind of just want to own like everything and that's basically all this is to me. Yeah. The the left curve and right curve is like tether chain good basically. Yeah. It's not like this chain is only going to be for really well. Yeah. Um, apparently they're they're executing really well. Kind of like a fintech company. Like they're really focused on payments. They've got like some big integrations lined up. A few people DM'd me saying that the and a few of them are investors but still they said that this

one of the teams executing at the highest level. Um and I think that's why all the hype is there. Um but yeah, I mean I I guess given it's the tether chain at this point, it's going to do well off the 500 million ICO. Um we would you guys be be biders there? Yeah, I mean the ICO isn't really like a a very democratized ICO. It's very much a whale game, right? It's like deposit stables and you get points, right? And your points are a function of how long you lock and how much money you lock for. And so, um, it's it's just going to be whales with cash that that they're going to clean up on that one.

Do you have to KYC for this? Probably. Probably probably. Uh yeah, but if you look at like pull up the Tron chart, it's like literally just straight up and to the right. It's pretty incredible over like since like 2018. Like it's obviously had some spikes, but overall it's pretty crazy. They make a lot of money off these stable coin transfers. Yeah. So, I mean, I think the getting this the centralized exchanges to switch from Tron to this chain will be pretty easy. Tron does have some sort some like decent um lock in with this like all this Southeast Asia and all this stuff and so that might take longer

to get people off Tron but uh yeah it will be interesting to see how Tron does with this um because you would think that's kind of like the main loser from this. Yeah, Tron's higher than Ethereum in 24-hour chain fees. 2 million in 24-hour chain fees versus Ethereum 1.8, Solana 1.3. And it's just consistent, just consistent churning. I'm guessing this thing will get farmed in size, kind of like a Binance launchpool type. Like I'm guessing there will be like tens of billions farming this. Um, and it's it's interesting. It's also a vampire attack on like USDC. Um, in that you can

deposit I think it's US and die. You can deposit USDC, D USDS or USDT, but they it all gets swapped to Tether on the back end uh and locked. So, and you assume that like there's going to be some other games to play on the chain with Tether like yeah, it could be a lot of or especially for D, it could be a decent chunk of of of D that gets like converted here and and yeah, it's interesting play. It makes sense for I mean who's actually holding D that is I don't know I mean D pay is the highest uh D is like a pretty good yield like SI or SUSDS or whatever true but yeah there's a lot of people holding

just naked die which is uh which is hard to understand. I guess if you have a lot of it there like I don't know liquidity. Yeah. Yeah. I agree on the uh this the circle ramp. Um it'd be interesting to see if this impacts their IPO uh price action. Yeah. What is it set to because I know it was like set to launch at five billion and then there's I think it's around five. Yeah. I just it's just uh there's too many headwinds. I mean naturally like yeah you want to be long stable coins but you know interest rates come down and and like that's just direct margin for them. There's no real other way like Circle's probably going

to be the cleanest way for like the average person to play it, right? Like what else do you buy to play? Like Tron like Tron, you have this. Yeah, you have Ena, you have Plasma Ch. No, but but like it's not not necessarily about playing it, but more so just eating into their business model, right? which then becomes I also think that I think that Tether is pretty hard to like get rid of their moat but it's pretty easy to get USDC's like it's it's like an American regulated fintech stable and there's a lot of those coming out these days and people use Tether for a very different reason than just

pure like a lot of people use Tether don't want the US you know stable coin so yeah it's also a race to the bottom like in terms of, you know, if if someone offers a yield, then why would you hold this? And and so Coinbase offering a yield is just eating into Circle's margin. Yeah, I think it's stuck in a weird place for sure. Coinbase really did a good job farming Circle. It's Circle's so much f like they have 60 billion in market cap. Like they're just so much further ahead of everyone else. But maybe that can change really quickly.

Yeah. Yeah. But you price it on growth, right? If if Yeah. I think there's like some pretty good network effects obviously. How so how much is Coinbase taking of the yield or of the earnings like once you know what the revenue agreement is between Circle and Coinbase? It's a big line cost line item. Yeah. If you look at their their S1. Yeah. So anyways, I think it'll probably do pretty well because there's no real other way for people to play it cleanly, like super cleanly. Like it's the clear number two and it's, you know, regulated in American. I don't know. Do you think those rumors I mean it was like so

circle was going to IPO and then it seemed like there was going to be no demand for it and then you had these rumors that like Ripple and Coinbase were going to buy it at like nine bill and then the next week they're like, "Oh yeah, we're going to IPO again." Like I don't know. Do you think those are like real rumors? Not sure. But yeah, but wasn't the rumor that you had like 9 to 10 or 11 billion like they're offering double the IPO price? That seems a little bit. Yeah, it seems like something just to hype back up the IPO. I don't know. I wouldn't buy because it's it's just uh I think Guy had a good post like with with stables, you you kind of want to be on the extremes like you either want to be the most liquid or the highest yield. And

like Tether is the most liquid, the most sort of accepted like the the base collateral pair, the base trading pair for a lot of the stuff obviously used for remittances and stuff. And then USD is the highest highest yield at least right now. Um, and USDC is kind of stuck in a weird spot where it feels like when uh it feels like their main the main bull case is just like regulatory capture that they can get these which they've they've been doing like a decent uh job and regulatory capture is an unfair way to put it, but just just sort of making the the regulations um screw over Tether, right? Or enforcing like reserve requirements and stuff like this. But so far it's been these regulations have been pretty toothless.

Like even in Europe like the stable coin rags if it's like I don't know if if you're trading on I'm I'm trading on on some of these exchanges as a European and they they just like come up with these workarounds like now you're trading Binance credits rather than the the stable coin as collateral but the pair is still USDT. Um yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, so you're saying that like Circle at 5 billion, you'd rather own ENA at 5 billion FTV, which is what it's at, than Circle at 5 billion IPO price, even though Circle has like 10x the stable coins. Like 10x the market cap of their stable.

Um, yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think I would honestly. That's interesting. Why? Like I don't think so. Mhm. Yeah. Like it I feel like that's kind of a tough argument, but yeah. I mean I I just think it's a I mean for sure like certain but I just think I can see a clear path for uh like USD supply to to grow um off just like the integrations like they announced with Telegram today to like over a billion users. Um and you kind of saw like funding ticked up last week. I think it got to like 7% and they added like 300 million or or 400 million

in in USD supply and yeah like the the amount of integrations they have now like last time they were they they they added like I think it was like one or one or two bill once when when funding ticked up and now like capa capacity on a is is like 3 to 4x they have integrations everywhere like PT is is collateral on on on a too like I just think if you see a real funding cycle then this will will do really well. That's the thing is like I think the environment is right now best for circle and worse for Athena, right? As as interest rates come down, then funding will likely tick higher and and the revenue source for like the two are inversely related. The

revenue source for USC and and Athena. So if we think over time interest rates come down, then then that's just going to directly eat into the top line. just been like a pretty like won't the basis trade just kind of get armed down to whatever that interest rate is like over time like I kind of feel like we've seen that this cycle a bit obviously there's still periods where it's hot but I don't know just with 10 is is uh the the fact that like these exchanges their baseline funding rate is is 11% or 10% right so like just that on its own I think puts in a floor yield.

But I thought that USD yield was like five or six or had dropped like five or six like w wasn't it mostly in treasuries recently or like a month a couple months ago. Yeah. Yeah. When when when funding's below the the treasury yield, they just moved to treasuries and it's been like pretty flat um for for for a few months now. Yeah. Jason sent us a message. So it's a 5050 rev share. Well, Coinbase keeps a 100% of interest earned by USDC on their platform. Okay, that's pretty [ __ ] that's hot. If you look at the earnings, it's they're trash. It's like the if you got to pull up Let me I'll get the S1. Like they earned so little in terms of cash on this agreement forever. They signed that or do you

think that that expires at some point? I don't know. I just think they're in a really good position as the number two. Obviously Tyler's in a fantastic position, but like in terms of the number two like order of magnitude higher than the next um competitor and the thing is like well the question is like where where people so you know who owns Coinbase owns the user. Kraken's eventually going to go public next year. They own the user. They're probably going to have a similar agreement with Circle, right? like Circle Max extracts when people hold Circle on when people hold USDC on chain because they're not paying crazy vig to to these exchanges.

And so, you know, there are c there's definitely a bunch of people who hold USDC on chain, right? And and that's where their margin is. But for the most part, people are holding USDC on exchanges. And then as you shift on chain, you probably shift into other sources of stable yield. So like Yeah. Well, well, I think it's like where do you see like the more stable adoption coming from? It's like I think if more enterprises and stuff adopt stable coins, USDC seems like the obvious one, right? Like if there's regulatory concerns around USDT, like probably going to go USDC like for commerce and general adoption and also why would you use that over PayPal? PayPal's been around for like Yeah, time, of course.

But PayPal is at like a sub billion in their in their um PayPal stable coin. So, we we'll see. I don't know. I just think that they're I don't think it's sub billion, but yeah, it's a lot smaller. But like Coinbase just did a deal with PayPal as well. And so, it's kind of like who has the bargaining power here. Um yeah. Yeah, PayPal's it's only 850 million. Really? Wow. That's way smaller than I thought it was. On Coin Gecko. Anyways, so circle 60x that I think you either you either want to be like highest yield where you're used as a treasury asset and people just use you in the back for whatever their stable coin is or you want to have be the most liquid and have the most distribution and it just feels like I think Coinbase is that like Circle I mean yeah like

Circle USDC is that in the US but they eat all the there's like very little of that value flows back to to to Circle. Yeah, th those agreements are like and the exchanges own the user, right? And so they're gonna they're going to have I think that continued leverage. Do you want to move topics? I think we Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Gone through this. Um, so do you want to talk about the Suie hack? I feel like that was pretty interesting. That or Salana upgrade. I think the Sweet thing is like I don't think it's that big of a discussion. Like I'm not really surprised. Su is what two years old.

They got 200. But you want maybe we give the context a bit. Yeah. I don't know if everyone So yes, the C test the largest decks on sewer got got drained. I think it was like 250 mil something like that. It was your your basic like overflow bug that move was was like supposed to be immune to but obviously now we found out it's it's it's not and that the I think mist has said they're going to invest more in security which is pretty good. Um, and then I think they only managed to swap out 60 million to Ethereum to bridge 60 million to Ethereum, which is surprising to me. Uh I don't quite know why but um the same day within a few hours the Sweet Foundation the Cedus team managed to get the exploiter uh addresses to to to basically uh it's

like managed to upgrade um the small config file to the validators that ignored transactions from the from the Yeah. Basically they told validators you're not processing transactions from the hacker. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting because this would require a hard fork on on like most other chains, but SW validators I think synchronize software every every epoch, which is like 24 hours. So this was kind of a hard fork, but it but without requiring a hard fork. There's just this one address screaming into the void. Um and and now there's like a proposal. I don't think it's been voted on yet, although when I checked it was like slightly over 50% in favor, which uh which it if it passes will execute like a counter

exploit. It will unlock the frozen coins, transfer them to a multi-ake controlled by Sus and Suie. Um, and then there'll be like a a way for victims to to claim for for reimbursement. Um, yeah. I don't know. This it's it's crazy to me how I guess the most surprising thing to me about this is how uncontroversial it was compared to what these things used to be in crypto back in the day. like whether it's the the DAO hack um or even like the the the blast one where there was the the bridge hack and it was like a multisig like there was so much more debate uh I guess for these new chains people just do not care about decentralization like the the this this this ethos is kind of like

dead I think amongst the newer generation of chains well I think I think the nuance way to look at it is like uh so people say this is no different than like there's no censorship ship resistance because they're blocking a hacker. I think that misses a lot of nuance. It's like you do need to get a 100 validators to like agree that this hacker who stole $200 million should be blacklisted. It's still going to be a lot harder if like there's some one person that Swe for whatever reason wants to like censor and they get all the validators to like run this, you know, they're going to be like, "Well, why would we do that?" Right? This is like an easier case to do it. So, I don't think that it's like completely

um it's not like using a single bank, right? And everything is like behind the scenes and they can just choose who or who they don't do business with, right? Like everything is still out in the public so everybody knew they were doing this. Well, in a in a private Discord group. No, I mean like the decision, right? Um if they ever release new software that blacklist people's addresses, people are going to see that, right? It's not going to be some shadowy like behind the scenes thing that you know when people's bank accounts get frozen all this stuff right I think listen what two years old um this has happened early early in networks like people have forked like this in the past

I also think that has never really pitched themselves as like some censorship resistant uh one at least not that I think like I think it's pretty clear what they are they have 00 validators that are KYCed right now. They're going after like gaming and they're basically like a web two team that is kind of used to all this and so for sweet to do this it's like I don't think it's too surprising. I think you could and listen there's people out there that want this, right? Like Yeah. Like all the depositors all the depositors are like it's it's 20% of the chain's TVL. Okay. You can't just let

at like this Yeah. No, I mean like not doing it would would satisfy this fringe borderline pedantic minority that don't even aren't even in the ecosystem that are yelling they shouldn't do this. Like those are the ones that are mad that they did this. Everyone who's involved is for this because yes, not some unilateral thing that one person's deciding. It's a consensus decision among everyone. I just think the main thing the the main thing for me is is that like ETH is really the only chain that I think I have confidence ET1 cannot do this. Like I think every other new chain that you have your your your assets on um regulators or you know whoever h has has a problem with you. I

think it's fair to say they can they can like exert enough pressure to to to freeze your assets. Um I don't know. I don't know. That's kind of like big a big value prop of I think that's I think like that's a big stretch that people are trying to make as like this case for Ethereum. It's the only one I would agree with that. There's a lot there's that's no way that matters. No no like one government could force Salana to do this. The US. You don't think so? Yeah. Lana also has home stakers as much as people don't want to believe like not home like in their home but so be way tough they have way more validators too and yeah it's like I think that people are taking this as yeah to my point like

they want this to be true that Ethereum is the only one that you couldn't do this for and so like you don't think that's true North Korea washing assets on Thor chain and nothing happened like North Korea is arguably the worst actor possible should be doing this, right? If you're thinking from the government's perspective. So if if they're not coming after somebody for that, then like it they're not going to come after them. But it's just different incentives, right? Like in that case, the validators are generating fees from the activity. In in this case, the validators would get the sui dumped on their heads, right? If if uh so I don't I think the incentives are uh I mean a lot of validators at least in Swiss are

just get delegations though from like me they still have denominated cash flow like it's yeah I mean everyone's long I think it's a stretch to say I think like obviously Ethereum is the most censorship resistant L1 it is a big stretch to say that Ethereum is the only chain that you can't do this on so- which one which other do you think I don't think validators coordinate quickly to yeah I don't think you do this on Salana and Salana eventually it would get through just like on Ethereum you have validators that would process this eventually right you just have to wait a bit longer till that kind of leader comes around but there's enough you know individual

validators on Salana that eventually these would get through and that's all you need you need one right this is literally all 100 decided to Like I think it would be hard to have the to have uh to have Anza anza you'd need a hard fork I think on Salana to release new software saying that we're blacklisting these addresses and get 80% of validators to to to run that software. I think that would be kind of tough. Maybe they could do it. Maybe they could do it. Um depend big enough probably. We'll see.

agreed it was in the chain's best interest, but then it's also like what does this have to do with price though now? Well, I don't I think a lot of the like value prop of crypto is that it's like dissident tech and like it's for capital flight away from corrupt governments. Uh like there's definitely a lot of assets in crypto that are that are people like Yeah, but this wasn't even government. This was social consensus. this was the foundation and the validators deciding this is the in all those value props that you're describing would would you see the hundred validators coming together and blocking your transaction you know uh safety from governments etc etc like do you think the the hundred would come together and block it

I think there's like it it's it's possible yeah like let's say there's a big uh US uh like Roger Vera type guy who's who's convicted of of tax evasion or something like this and his assets are sitting on on a blockchain on an address and the US subpoenas all the validators and says I want you to uh upgrade your software to exclude this this this wallet like the reality is if you if if for a lot of people like this is the use case of crypto and you just why would you leave assets on a chain where this can happen if you can have them on Ethereum where you we're way more guaranteed that this that this that this can't happen. That's like the uh I don't mean if you're going to make more money on that chain and you are is it literally zero risk to have this like

for sure you'll put some assets on there and like play some play play uh you know like uh ape some coins on there and stuff but like for the majority of your of of your wealth and I think a lot of like a long tale of ext or or uh not a long tale the like a short tale of extremely rich uh users will choose Ethereum or or something like it that where this can't right something like it but I mean I guess you could argue maybe back in the day Salana would have been in the position where they they could have been done but now now it's not right and so it's this whole process of of kind of gradual decentralization and and you know you think about the decision that's best for you at the time to get to this end state where you can't do it. I just

think this is fine in the world we're in now. Like there's there's if the stuff that Bitcoin maxis and and Arthur Hayes and like a lot of these people talk about goes down where there's actually fiat currencies collapsing, there's bond markets going crazy and like governments are literally fighting for for survival which is like to be honest like the the bull case for for for crypto at least for for for a lot of this stuff. then you have to assume like adversarial conditions and and this like a lot of these chains are not resistant to those environments. Well, so if you're Yeah.

But if you're thinking, you know, in terms of mass asset protection, it kind of goes back to the whole barbell argument for stables, but here for uh security, right? If you're going to if if you care about security more than anything, then you're going to go all the way to BTC. And then on the other side is kind of functionality. But you might want to have stables, right? You might How do you have stables when the governments are going after too? I don't know. You can have stables in a like they're gonna you know there's there's like if you have stables in a you're I mean they have to censor the the the entire market, right? Like there's you can wrap your stables, right? But you're talking about like this World War II scenario. So

why would you hold circle USDC if I I would not like Yeah, that's fair. Uh stables are are probably a bad example. So it's just going it's it's only the native asset. That's the only real thing that you would hold. And so then it's just like BTC versus ETH. And this is the thing about BTC. It's just it does one thing well and it's like censorship resistant. And like if this whole World War II thing that people always talk about, listen man, if World War II happens, you know what I want to do on blockchains? I want to send money back and forth. I don't want to eat per. It doesn't have to be World War II. Yeah. There's a lot of there's a lot of scenarios that aren't World War II where governments get super PvP. Yeah. But it's happened like many times. This is the thing. The

reality in the last century, the reality in my opinion is this is that Bitcoin, if you ever get one of these scenarios, is what you want. And then all the other use cases in crypto are like good time use cases and like they're democratizing, you know, products like they're democratizing private banking products and stuff like that. Um, and so those are kind of like the two, it's really the money industry and the tech industry. And you know, I think that if Ethereum is only building to be this like backup Bitcoin with more a little bit more functionality, it's like I don't know how much of that functionality matters if you really get this doomsday scenario. You kind of just want money to

like send back and forth to people. I disagree. Yeah, I disagree. What would you be using if like Dude, it's hard to talk about like without sound without sounding like a like an idiot to talk about these these scenarios, right? Sounding like crazy. It's legitimate. I have a question for you, Jose. If so, on Ethereum though, like let's say they wanted to force something. Could they not just like fork Ethereum and be like, "We're honoring the stable coins on this new fork and it has to be compliant with like these government rules, right?" Well, they don't get the choice. The if it's a centralized stable coin issue, they get the cho choice basically. Although I actually don't necessarily agree with that actually. Yeah, there's been various counterarguments against that. I think initially made the post about this. I think there's been a lot of

valid counter arguments. I do actually think that circle would be forced to use whatever chain social consensus wants them to use. Um because then they kind of just like nuke their entire business. Yeah, but the government's telling you well then their business is just dead. Like if the government is gonna just decide to kill circles business then like I think that's like the magnitude. I just think in a world where like if you really get a world I'm not I'm not saying World War II but a world where you just have less trust. It's more multipolar uh like fiat currencies are are dog [ __ ] Every country is is in some form of or like most countries are in some form of debt crisis like inflation. Um, then you'll want to send money, but you'll also want to do

various types of financial transactions, deals, sure, loans, escrow contracts, like all the stuff that that we initially wanted like Ethereum and like blockchains for. And to me, the like the credible one, the only one that you could credibly do this on right now is is ETH and then probably Salon is the second. I I Well, that's the thing. It's kind of in this weird in between where if you if you're focusing on money, you just go a little bit further to the left on the security spectrum and you don't just want to hold gold, right? Sorry to interrupt. Yeah. Yeah. No worries. But then if you want like activity and and and utility, then you kind of go a little bit further to the right on Salana and you you basically have near equivalent level of security at this

point for all intents and purposes, right? Like neither one can really be shut down by one ND. I mean Salana is is is definitely like more of a Discord group situation than than Ethereum, right? Like even the the way the impressive way in which they've coordinated these restarts of the chain like the speed at which you do it like all these validators are a Discord group away. Like that's kind of been shown I think a couple times like on on Ethereum you just I just don't see how you could do that. Yeah. And then there's actually like three different clients. Huh.

Why is that a critique that like Salana is able to has like good coordination when like [ __ ] hits the fan? Like if there's like some bad bug, do you do you prefer that? Like if there's some really bad bug in Ethereum that nobody can coordinate to fix it and then everything kind of just gets [ __ ] Well, it's just the the whole point of this stuff is that no group, especially not like a group small enough to coordinate through a Discord group, has enough control on on on these systems to be able to like change them. That that's like the main for me at least. I think it's definitely not the case now. And and as investors, you have to adjust, but that was like the initial point of these systems is is that you you can't

do that. like it's it's I get that you want to have like this web two like experience where there's a bug people can can patch it quickly but but this is why Ethereum moves so slow right this is why like like everything gets tested and formally verified and there's like all the people making fun of the ETH research people and stuff is because these are their values their values are you don't want to have a bug because if you do the no it's hard to coordinate to fix it so you just have to avoid it whereas all these other chains are like moving quick more more towards the spectrum of move quick and break things which has allowed to implement features more quickly and stuff, but I do think in a truly like scenario where blockchains are are needed, like Ethereum is is the one that most people

would would want to go. Could you could you argue that that there's coordination when it's towards a single goal that everyone agrees is productive, right? And that's when you want the coordination and then you don't necessarily have it when there would be uh dissenting opinions, whether it's censorship or or whatever it might be. And so like you have coordination when you need it and but then you have the the resistance and decentralization also when you need it for these kind of unique events that are more opinion driven. I mean listen every every main salon stakeholder wanted them to pass this inflation reduction proposal and it didn't go through. Like you had you had to you had mer you had multicoin you had literally all the biggest Salana voices and it didn't go through. And so I think

it's like when [ __ ] hits the fan, yeah, it's easier for people to come together. I'm not so sure that it's a bad thing that people can do that. And I do think that Salana should be I do think Salana should not decentralize too quickly at this point still. They're only 5 years old. Um I actually don't think that they should kind of be accelerating towards being super decentralized at this point. Um but I do think over time eventually they'll get there. It'd be good to touch on the upgrade. Yeah, the upgrade is just uh new consensus algorithm. So, they're getting rid of proof. The biggest upgrade ever to Salana. Like the most the biggest change they're stripping out they're stripping out. So, they're keeping Turbine. They're stripping out tower

BFT. They're stripping out proof of history, which is like this checkpointing thing. Um, I remember Liam from Fire Dancer a couple years ago had it started talking about how he thought proof of history was kind of [ __ ] and then maybe not [ __ ] but just like didn't exactly give the guarantees you thought it did and was kind of like redundant. Um but what what I find super bullish about this is that in 2023 these guys from ETH Zurich wrote a paper on how to like exploit proof of history and Salana and it was like a small it was like you know a four validator set and it was in like test environment all this stuff whatever and this went all over Twitter. The the guys who made this new

consensus for Salana are those guys who wrote that paper. So Salana literally hired like these ETR guys, got them to write the new consensus mechanism. And I think that's pretty bullish because instead of just like pushing away critics, you know, totally actually reached out to them, started talking to them and being like, okay, let's uh let's get these guys on board and let's fix it, right? I think that's kind of the mentality within Salana that they have this very pragmatic mindset and they'll deal with you know they if you critique the other thing too in Salana is that you see the engineers [ __ ] on totally a lot too right whereas I feel like in Ethereum maybe recently it's changed a little bit but at least historically you can never say anything bad about Vitalic right and so it's just

like a very different mindset where they are pragmatic they do want to fix stuff if you come with like a critique and it's legit, like they'll look into it and make it better. The other thing that this upgrade removes is like the onchain voting. And so this is good because you know um every Salana validator has to vote on every single 75% of the transaction load I think. Well, that's one thing is like this, you know, there's this whole the TPS numbers are high. That's one thing that's that's like pretty immaterial to me. But the main thing is that like this is better for smaller validators, right?

Because every single validator needs to vote on every single block. Um, and so if you're a small validator and you only have like 0.1% of stake, then you're only earning rewards on 1% of uh like you only you you're only the leader for 0.1% of blocks, but you have to pay the same sole expense as every other validator, right? And so that's like pretty that's that's like the kind of centralizing thing with doing onchain voting is that and I wrote about this when I wrote about Salon a couple years ago actually literally two years ago to this date.

Um we're like the these vote fees are very centralizing because whether you have a billion dollar stake or a million dollar stake you you have the exact same expenses, right? And so this will be good for that. Getting voting offchain finally. [Music] Um, and yeah, they they said it's going to go live early next year. We'll see. Like these things always take way longer. And Salana now is not at the state where switching consensus while it's running, it's like a lot riskier, right? Because they have a lot more assets now. They have like 10 billion on them and people are using it literally all the time.

Um, so yeah, we'll see. That's going to be tricky. That's uh yeah, I think I saw some analysis that the break even validator stake went from 5,000 soul to like 450 soul. So, it's pretty meaningful for like smaller. Yeah, it's it's mostly now just your actual cost of like hardware and bandwidth and all that. And you also get to sub 200 milliseconds, right, with this new consensus. Like I think it's going to be 150 I think is what they're going is what they're going for. They also have um it's like so in most in most BFT systems you have like a one-third um safety guarantee where like up to onethird of the stake can be Byzantine

or like malicious and then you'll cause uh the chain to essentially halt. with Salana, the new consensus, they're they're pushing that a little bit where it only takes 20% of um stake to be malicious for it to halt the chain. Uh but I think the trade-off there is that they're able to get like way faster finality and latency and everything. So they're kind of playing with um that decision a bit like this twothirds thing has always kind of been the the number that people use, right?

and they're kind of pushing that a bit to uh yeah, there's some like technical nuances that I won't get into about like when blocks finalize and all that, but it moves it from uh like 12.8 true finality to like 150 true finality. And this is just important for like if you think about a market maker making onchain, um the the lower latency, like the lower finality times, the tighter your spreads can be, right? because you have lower risk of somehow getting like some small reorg getting picked off or whatever.

Yeah. Do we think it's uh like the maybe the the hype eating into Salana narrative is real? Like because the thing because it's it's hard to it it it does seem like there's chain like per is one of the use cases where clearly app specific stuff is useful. Like even the ability to cancel orders and and and stuff like this is is super useful. It's hard to see Drift or or some of these uh and I really like the Drift team, but competing with with Hyperlquid here. And if if Toll's right that the biggest use case of of blockchains is just minting and trading tokens, then

um is Hyperlid or I guess like Fogo, which is like Salana with some app specific stuff. Is that the right design? I mean, hype is definitely Yeah, this is a tough one. Like, hype has definitely taken a lot of pure trading activity from Salon, but Salana is still kind of like the launchpad. Yeah. I think the narrative can be on the AI side, too. It seems like a lot of new AI projects are are choosing to launch there. I mean, the Hypvm does two TPS right now with a theoretical max of seven. It's like, you know, the hype EVM getting that up to the speed where

Salana is is a massive difference, right? Um, Hyperlquid just crushes Salana when it comes to perpetrating and stuff. And so they're pretty different products like but maybe the same bucket of capital allocates to these, right? But they are like pretty materially different products. like Hyperliquid is not trading at where it is because it's like has this general purpose L1. It's trading because of the perpetual exchange. Yeah, I'm definitely a hype bull and I think you know it'll continue to do well at and then at a certain point it'll kind of reach price par and then the next leg up is basically this transition from valued as a DEX to

valued as a chain. I like Hype EV Hype EVVM like I've used it. It's kind of butt. Um but yeah, like obviously hype itself is great. I trade there a bunch. Um and and so then you know once that kind of reaches fair value, whatever that is based on volumes, then maybe you see some flows back. But it's I don't know that it'll ever be able to get that L1 premium without massive tech improvements. I think the tough thing for Hype is that they're probably around they're at the point now where they've taken all the decks per market share and they've taken like a decent amount of the centralized exchanges,

but to actually start getting more material into there. They It's going to be pretty tough for them because it's still like totally public per exchange. Yeah, I guess we'll see. like they have like their numbers have been just like been insane. Like uh I'm trying to pull up the dashboard, but I think they have like more Yeah, there's a good one. It's something like hyperflow, but it basically shows versus sexes and and volume. And I think they have like as much OI as OKX, like 40% as of buy bit, 20% of Binance, like and it's kind of going vertical, especially after all this like James Win stuff. The guy had the billion dollar position on chain.

So, it's still growing really quickly. I don't know if it's reached saturation yet. Like, we haven't really seen it level off yet. Yeah, it helps that it has that built-in bid too from the uh the fund just buying hype. Obviously, it doesn't move the needle as much as it used to because of the the size of hype, but it's still a non-negligible amount of buying into the market. So, even during lulls where you know you don't really have new supply hitting the market on hype, you still have this kind of bid that that that provides a boon. Yeah. Okay. I found the website. It's hypflows.com. and the open interest like it's kind of slowly grinding up to about 9% and then just since the start of May

it's at 14% versus all sexes like aggregated. So it's it's really just gone exponential in the past like month or so. So I don't know if it's reach reached saturation yet. Yeah. Uh I don't know. Do you have anything else we want to talk about? We've been over an hour now. No, I'm good. Do we have any legit questions in the in the chat? They're asking how many how many gold antiques Duncan has buried in the backyard for store value.

I think gold is good in case Oh, what's this whole quantum computing thing that could break Bitcoin? Like, it's pretty far out. It's definitely worth like paying attention to, but quantum computing, I listened to a good pod with uh A16Z a couple weeks ago. um it's going to take a while. It's like worth thinking about but not making any rash decisions over. The thing with Bitcoin is that a lot of these like any system like basically when you have quantum computing you need to move to a new signature scheme that's quantum resistant. And so that's easy to do if you have the keys, right? The thing with Bitcoin is there just like a lot of lost keys and there's like Satoshi's keys. So those

ones um you literally can't move them to something quantum resistant. And so you can always do like some manual then but then it's like you know is Bitcoin going to essentially burn those coins at one point right when you get quantum computing and it's a decent chunk. Um but are you going to like is is Bitcoin going to burn Satoshi's wallets? That's I guess like kind of the interesting question. moves though. Is that like bullish or bearish, right? It's like you're taking off a big amount of supply, but like that supply is already effectively taken off anyways.

Yeah, I think people right now the ongoing assumption is that those coins will never move. I think that seems to be the ongoing assumption. But once you see the move, it's like, oh [ __ ] China cracked quantum. Yeah. And then that's their prize. Hopefully they hodddle. And then when that happens, the rest of the world then when that happens, the rest of the world breaks because every government secrets are just cracked. All your banking is cracked, everything. So once the Bitcoin moves, the world knows, oh, we got to upgrade now. Pillillage Duncan's backyard for all that gold. Yeah. I don't want the gold.

I want the uh I want the statue head. Yeah. So, have a little bit of golden food in case that happens, guys. All right, I think we've gotten to the useful end of this part. The last thing is um I looked up the circle thing. So, it's they have the revenue sharing agreement with Coinbase. They signed it August 2023 for three years and then they have the option to extend it another three years. So like potentially they could like renegotiate that at some point in the future and that could could be pretty bullish. But obviously like you guys are saying they own the the user. I just think at 5 billion it

doesn't seem that bad. If this is like the one thing that everyone is consensus on like stable coins are going to be [ __ ] huge and you can buy like the second biggest stable coin that's like still growing pretty fasted in the US as like a long-term thing. I think it's not terrible. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I mean I'll agree that it's not terrible. Would you rather own I think you have some other equities that you'd rather own. So, yeah, but I think it could be good anyways. Cool. That was a good uh that was good. I thought doing it live was fine.

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for in if if you guys are listening live. Yeah, if you're still here. This guy said, "Imagine putting a long-term bet in the Fartcoin chain rather than the institutional chain." This idea that Ethereum is like the institutional chain, it's like pretty not true to me. It's like these funds and everything are launching their assets kind of like everywhere. Um, I don't know. This feels like a longer debate.

I I agree that. Yeah, I think that's a bad argument for for Ethereum. That's also not that also goes totally against what your like whole rant about Ethereum's use case was too. No, I think most of these institutions are just seeing this as like new markets to tap into. Like these assets, most of the assets they're issuing are permissioned assets anyway. Like they don't care what chain it's on, even if they've freeze their address or whatever. Like this doesn't matter. They're holding the the stocks or the bonds or whatever. Like I think most of the use cases that people talk about have no use for a for a chain anyway. They're just using it to tap into new users, new markets, new assets.

Like, exactly. I think the I don't think it goes against my argument for Ethereum. I think my Ethereum is slightly different. Uh I just think it's like different. I Yeah, it's a different bullcase, which I don't agree that is the bullcase for Ethereum anyways, but uh the one this guy's saying because yeah, institutions are just going to go to where the users want it at the end of the day. Um until until Yeah. until like security matters like and you know I agree if Yeah. Yeah. But in what way? Even if like they always have the authority to just freeze their assets. Um what do you mean? Yeah. But yeah, for

sure for for the for like like RWAs. Yeah. All right. All right. Yeah. Let's not go down the rabbit hole. Uh yeah. All right, guys. Thanks very much for joining us. We'll be back in two weeks. Maybe we'll do it live again. I don't know. We'll see. Maybe. Yeah, we'll see. It's a lot of coordination. Feel like it was pretty similar to Yeah, not too diff. Yeah, we get some better comments. Well, I haven't looked on YouTube. I'm just seeing there's nothing on Twitter that I can see.

Yeah, you know that the comments You know that the comments show in here, eh, in the StreamYard. Oh, yeah. And they come in from both YouTube and Twitter. I didn't see that. Yeah, it's okay. Oh, really? I didn't see that either. Real person here late to the party. Yeah, Salana is going by. All right, guys. Five hour chart. I'm gonna end the stream, but uh yeah, guys. See you everybody. See you. [Music]