Live From DAS: Are Tokens Dead? | Roundup

Transcript

Hey everyone, quick disclaimer before we get into today's episode. Nothing said on Bell Curve is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is for informational purposes only and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Our guests and I may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed. Gents, how we doing? Fantastic. Is this thing on? >> [laughter] >> Good day. >> [sighs] >> It certainly is. Um All right. Well, I'm actually curious. I mean, we're going to talk about tokens.

Dramatic headline, are tokens dead? Mhm. They wanted that headline. Um but before we get there, I'm just curious like what have your guys takes been on DAS on the ground here? Respond in an unbiased way, you know. I forgot how many people wear suits to this thing. >> [laughter] >> I felt extremely underdressed for the past few days, but no, I mean, that is also like a just a reminder of how much the space has matured. And yeah, it's been super interesting just seeing the amount of people that some of these really large companies have sent, including my old employer Fidelity has like a small army here.

So, that's always a good sign, but yeah, Zev. Yeah, I think it's the Templar launch last week was a really defining moment for the space and it's very clear, you know, I'm speaking with people from Shopify to UPS to different banks and enterprises that, you know, last year weren't moving into the space like they are right now as seriously. So, it's fantastic to see, you know, we said for so many years that institutions would be coming and now it seems like they're actually here. So, now we've got to scramble and work out how to capture some of that value. >> Oh god, now they're here. What are we going to do?

>> [laughter] >> Yeah, and they're actually using the chains. That's good. It's not, you know, in the past it's been like, okay, the ETFs are coming. So, we're going to talk about the ETFs, right? People buying tokens or are the tokens going up and down? And this year it's no, it's it's the prices are, you know, very down, but that's not what people are talking about. They're talking about, you know, tokenization. They're talking about stablecoins, agenda commerce, which is great. Funnily enough, you come to a conference like this maybe in the past, there'd be a lot of talk on Ethereum and Solana and these kinds of chains. [snorts] This conference has felt a lot more like Tempo, Canton. I saw a great tweet last night on the line to get into a Canton

event reminded me of the bear trend event in Dubai a year ago. >> [laughter] >> So, yeah, that's that's the new hot. Less baddies. Less baddies on it. >> is such a good point. I mean, just as an organizer of this event for a number of years, there's always talks about Bitcoin, Ethereum, and roll-up. That has been relatively I mean, that's not what people want to talk about. Yeah, they're not talking about the tech that much either, right? It's very, very product oriented, which again, I think is overall just like a healthy sign of of maturity. Now, I think there's more juice to squeeze in the tech and I will nerd out with anybody here who wants to talk about tech, but over there. I got to take her. Good.

>> to take her, yeah. Fantastic. All right. What I would love to talk to you guys about is this idea of tokens. So, everything that's positive here that we've talked Maybe just to set the scene a little bit like big themes of the conference, merging the rails of things like TradFi and crypto. It's it's actually getting more and more difficult. You have to squint, what is the line of finance versus what is the line of crypto? They're really beginning to merge. You know, you had really positive embrace of you know, we had Chairman Paul Atkins and Michael Selig of the SEC CFTC speak, Jonathan Gould of the OCC. The regulators are really engaged and activated and energized. Um Everyone's very excited about stablecoins, RWAs. No one's questioning this very much and there's all this

positive sentiment and engagement. On the token side of things, it's a completely different story. But this is the tale of two cities that's emerging in crypto. This is why the sentiment is so much worse in the crypto native corners than it is in the institutional corners. The average token has done incredibly poorly. Even of really good projects, I would say, in the space for a long time. And so, you know, I I think I'd like to just get your guys take on why that is. And maybe just as a provocative provocative you know, lead-in here. You know what this kind of reminds me of is like a lot of blockchain, not Bitcoin. And these were if if you rewound the clock to 2018, the talking point of a lot of banks and institutions back then is all this

blockchain tech stuff is going to work. But Bitcoin Now, Bitcoin obviously worked very well since then, but most of the other tokens haven't really. And we're talking about a lot of tech stuff that there's no token to back or invest in or anything like that. So, were the blockchain not Bitcoin people right to some degree? They were just early. Maybe. I don't know. I I think it's it just could be like macro conditions that more so than you can go and point out one single thing about tokens.

Now, all the problems with tokens that we'll talk about still exist and the good news is they're actually being addressed. But yeah, I think it's more a question of okay, when like the market comes back risk on, do the tokens get a bid or is this actually like it, right? Even in like two years and it's all going to be, you know, then the most successful projects are just going to stay equity. Yeah, I think it's probably a bit of both. I keep coming back to Canton, but I think this is quite a frontrunner in terms of what the future of crypto looks like. Yeah, Canton has a a token, has a coin and the big institutions are happy using it. They're happy putting assets on that chain and I think that's actually quite

interesting. I think one thing that crypto natives didn't foresee maybe a year or two ago was new infrastructure being built that would overtake legacy chains like Ethereum and Solana and I think Canton would just continue to grow. Then you contrast that to chains like Avalanche and some other legacy chains that I think have done really, really well over the years, but maybe some of these layer ones were overvalued at some point in time, especially 2021, 2022 in the infra era. And now I would say it's not like they're failing. Like I think some of them have multi, multi-billion dollar outcomes. So, there's still a lot of success in that alone. I think maybe just the difference is today that the growth isn't really there as much and if you're an institution and you have the option to deploy on some chain, I guess the question is like why would you choose

Avalanche over Canton or something like that? I think that's not always clear why an institution would choose Avalanche over Canton unless there were incentives in play and I think it turned into a bidding game at some stage these these layer ones and yeah, the big institutional chains won that bidding game. I would agree with that. I also, you know, I think it there's been a lot of talk about hyperliquid at the conference so far, which is really interesting in that it's one of the few tokens which is actually performing. It's also the epicenter of this merging of TradFi and crypto rails. It's also interesting in the sense that when you look at what's being traded, it's CLUSD and oil synthetic oil contract, gold,

S&P 500. Yeah. Right? It's it's pretty interesting. Um Right. And that's blockchain, not, you know, crypto again, right? Kind of the definition of it, yeah. So, maybe we can start to break down why has it been such a tough um five or six years for tokens. You know, I showed some data on this before, but if you look at, you know, the median price performance of Like if you were to look at the total market cap of crypto over the last five years, it actually looks like a pretty good chart. When you start removing Bitcoin and ETH, it looks less good.

When you adjust for the amount of tokens and the inflation, it looks horrible. It's like the median price is down about 80%. Um and if it only gets worse the further the further back you go, the better it looks, but even on newer launches, it looks worse and worse and worse. So, maybe to just throw out some reasons that this could have been the case. One, um the regulatory environment made it incredibly difficult to operate these new like these protocol businesses. Um two, there's just broken in Like there's no transparency, just basic disclosures, and it's, you know, created a lack of trust from an investor standpoint. It's also just we might have just started from way too high of a price.

None of these valuations really made any sense. So, it's possible that we just started from far too high of a valuation and multiple standpoint and now we're re-rating. What do you guys think? Why has it been such a tough last couple years? I mean, yeah, I think you hit on a couple of them. One way to look at this is like in this interim period where there is no incentive to launch tokens, you can see that there's a lot of things being worked on. And and maybe these are like post EG TGE projects but looking at what's being addressed right now is a good way to like understand what has been wrong for the past five or six years and that's like, you know, token versus equity like singularity,

right? Like just pick one and it should all be there. You should not have like two different sets of incentives and two different revenue streams. Um you know, the other one is like investor relations, like what you're doing, right? The products that you're putting out. Like let's take this seriously and let's actually like, you know, make an effort to have a relationship with our investors. Um I think streamlining streamlining and simplifying governance, just getting rid of all this like decentralization theater that DAOs had to deal with for a long time.

That's all going away. And then the last one is like supply dynamics. Like I think it could be the case that the next generation of tokens launch at if they're, you know, like early stage, they're going to launch at an early stage appropriate valuation. Potentially with the whole supply, you know, actually unlocking on day one, right? And then having the ability to mint more tokens just like an equity would. These are things that are, you know, probably way better than having this existential, you know, unlock cliff, right, hanging over like the the assets head for two or three years and then everybody's trying to get out, right? You know, the other challenging part about this is is um the amount of tokens that foundations

have at their disposal. So, you know, by So, when the SEC went after Ripple uh in that case, actually Ripple uh one thing that they did well was they did disclosures of XRP sales. That was used against them. That was the very first exhibit of why this is potentially security. Crazy. Uh so, when actually foundations, even if they wanted to provide any sort of guidance about how that was going to get spent, they could not do it. So, again, from the perspective of investor, I'm looking at I'm trying to underwrite this token. A huge pile of uncertainty is there's basically pre-authorized but unissued shares, maybe 20% of the overall token supply. That could get dumped at any minute and they literally

can't tell me what they're going to do with it. >> Yeah. That's insane. I mean, how could you underwrite that? I mean, so much of it is built on trust, I think, as we had a chat about before. You have to really trust the teams you're investing in that they're going to do the right thing, but there's not a lot of recourse or repercussions if they do something wrong. And hopefully with this new regulation we were talking about just before as well in terms of clarity and and all of that that hopefully comes in in the next 6-12 months, that should set some standards, I think, for like what you can and cannot do. Whereas in the past, this was very very unclear. Um I think most investors have had problems with dealing with teams that have had both a token structure as well as an

equity structure, and I think fundamentally that's been one of the biggest problems in the space. And I would maybe even argue today like Polymarket itself, from what I understand, equity and token, you know, even in this day and age with regulation coming and all of that and token holders didn't have any rights and, you know, to this day they still don't really have a lot of rights. And we've seen M&A like Axelar, etc. They buy the IP and get nothing. And so, I I don't think this has changed a whole lot. That's like the more bear case for tokens. I'm still bullish tokens long-term, as you know. I am too. Do you think it's po- well, to add to to add to some of that? I mean, I think um one of the things that's been People really underplay this. They're like, when when you list these What's What's

wrong with tokens? This always ends up being like issue four or five. Building a startup is hard enough in one cohesive entity. Building it in three of like, "Oh, I've got my marketing, you know, my sales and marketing department and uh major upgrades over here, and then they can't talk to my R&D, my product and devs over here." That's That's not I would have just say it's impossible. I I I don't think that's a possible thing to do. It's like more than one and it's not a you know, there quietly have been some teams that have different structures around this. Um you started to see a couple teams like I don't think this gets enough credit, but Morpheus actually just they dissolve their they don't have any equity. They just they figured out this PBC type structure

where they only have the token. And so, they're able to operate in a way which is actually highly advantaged compared to some of their peers. I just don't think it's possible to do. Um But also, I still think I I'll this dual token equity structure, you know, there was a team uh recently, within the last couple weeks, they have openly stated that their objection is to IPO, but then they just launched a token. Right. How How That shouldn't fly anymore. Why should that fly? At what honestly like at what point is it kind of unethical, right? Like I mean, even behind closed doors, you know, I've had conversations with teams where they're like, "We have no intention of driving value to the token." Okay.

Why do you have one of these things? I mean, I I don't know. At what point is it an ethics question? I think the the token game is so different to the equity game though, so I think a company could theoretically play both games very very well. I mean, we've seen before in the past that some tokens have outrageous valuations that don't make sense. Yeah. It's worth a billion, two billion dollars. There's no one using the chain. Uh and a lot of the tier one exchanges actually have a say in the valuation, what it starts at, the market makers. And a lot of these tokens just trade whatever market makers say they trade at. And it's just them trading against each other. There's no actual real buyers. And they're in the several hundreds of millions of dollars. So, if you're a project and you have a massive

chunk of supply with the token, but you also have an equity in a real business and you can make money on both, I guess the incentive is to launch the token. And then there's sort of this thing that people buy and trade, but they have no intention of actually delivering any value to. So, I think some of it to blame in the token markets is still exchanges, and I will stand on that for forever until something changes. And I'm kind of surprised that that's not being regulated as much as some other things like securities, etc. So, I think until you change that game that is played. And also, some founders that I've worked with in the past, their whole business is actually made from trading fees of the token. It's not even made from the product itself. Like, they're literally employing a team from people trading the

token on exchanges. And when you ask them about PMF, they're like they don't have any actual legitimate response. So, that that still happens in the space quite frequently. Yeah, so that will self-select out and like the market will filter for that. Um but yeah, I think there's like some very happy second-order effects of there being a period right now where there is zero incentive to launch tokens. >> Yep. One of them is what I was saying earlier is like all of these things are going to be addressed by the time that there is now an like and the incentives to launch tokens comes back. Second one, and I can say this from like my seat right now, is that um I mean, if you the products are going to market, right, just without the token.

Um so, that means that when you if there is a, you know, an incentive to launch a token say like two years in the future when the market comes back or one or two, they're going to be more mature products, right, that are more easily like the market can actually underwrite them. They have like fundamentals and users and data. And the second piece is um there's so much overhead, like literal cost and effort and distraction of launching a token, especially if when you're trying to do that at the exact same time that you launch your product. Um I can tell you right now it's hard enough to like launch a product that finds PMF in the early stages, especially as like an infra project, um to then also be dealing with like all the backroom games of with exchanges and

market makers and all that crap. You just get distracted, right? Um and so, the teams can actually create better products because they're not distracted by that. And by the time they do want to launch a token, they'll have a real product, right? I'd argue you can't do both. Yeah. I mean, some of our portfolio companies uh that have launched a token recently, they spend maybe one or two months, the entire team, just thinking about the token launch. Terrible. >> Products like it's pushed to the side and it's all hands on deck for the token and nothing happens with the product. Obviously, they lose sort of themselves in the race to build something actually special and valuable. And by the time they've launched the token, you know, there's been such mayhem in that launch itself, they're kind of like so burned

out from it. Then they have to pick up the product again after that. And then the token's kind of trading down, so it's like, was the effort actually worth it? Like, I'm not 100% sure. Uh I don't think it but before you have PMF, absolutely not. I don't see how it possibly even could. You know, there's a sequence again, looking at It's one of those things that wasn't ever totally broken the way of like the average life cycle of a company made a lot of sense. You raise from VCs in the beginning, they don't demand all this work, you don't have to manage a public instrument, the the lift is very low. You should be spending 100% of your time trying to find PMF. By the time you start to think about going public, you have found PMF. You probably have hundreds of hundreds or maybe thousands of employees

at this point. You have a lot of infrastructure around you. You have an executive team. You are theoretically the CEO of that business is more competent than a year and a half year old founder or a founder who's been doing it for a year and a half. Not a year and a half year old founder. >> [laughter] >> Pre-preseed. Um But the the challenge actually is just the I'm not sure a lot of thought went into the timing of these Maybe that's the charitable way of of Well, yeah, exactly. That's the charitable way. >> The less charitable interpretation is that everyone was incentivized to get the token out the door as soon as humanly possible. Um and this is where I think a lot of both founder like the uncomfortable part here is both founders and VCs were complicit in this.

Yep. Yeah, I don't think you can forget how much VCs pushed this on founders in the past. And I think one big change that is different now compared to maybe in the last few years is that a lot of these VCs that pushed founders to launch tokens are no longer around. They haven't been able to raise new funds. And the more legitimate long-term sustainable VCs are still around and they're happy holding onto assets that can compound value long-term. So, that whole game, I think, has stopped. And the other thing we haven't mentioned yet is like quite often in the past, uh team might be at kind of seed, they raise one round, and then they realize they're not going to raise the next round cuz they they don't have enough PMF. And then the only option they feel they have is launch the token. And then they like obviously can

raise some capital through that, but I've actually never seen that work. I think every team thinks that they can do this like well, but I've never seen it work actually properly. And it goes back to your point where you want to make sure now in this day and age that your product is actually being used and then is actually It's like the Arrested Development meme like they think it works for them, but they delude themselves. >> [laughter] >> But I think it just might work for us. You know. I mean, yeah, the the the bear case for tokens not really back is that the ones that do find PMF and thus would launch with a a great token like we're talking about can just access capital in the private market and stay private and just ride that out for as long as possible like we're seeing outside of

crypto. And that's the real question is like, is there tangible benefits for the product, for growth, for, you know, the long-term health of the project to decide to launch a that like a token with real ownership and rights properly versus stake private. Blockworks co-founder Michael Ippolito here. Quick break to talk about something we've just launched, Blockworks Investor Relations. As the market shifts toward institutional capital, investors want more transparency, more standardization, and a higher level of professionalism. But, the traditional IR model is slow, manual, and not built for how crypto works. If you're building on chain, your data's already live, your business is already transparent. The challenge is turning that into a clear credible story for investors. That's exactly what we're

solving with Blockworks IR. It's a single platform that brings together real-time analytics, branded investor portals, and hands-on advisory support so you can communicate what matters. If you're an on-chain business looking to level up your investor strategy, check out Blockworks Investor Relations at blockworks.com/investor-relations. All right, back to the episode. So, now that we've said everything that's wrong, can I actually set the stage for, you know, what I The question that I want to ask you guys is are tokens ever going to come back? What might they look What might that look like?

Maybe to set the stage for the bull case for tokens from here. One, you know, we were talking about this the other day, it is incredible There's not an overwhelming amount of private market money that's trying to find its way into crypto hands. It is probably never, at least for the last maybe post FTX or something like that, but it has never been harder to raise than it currently is. At the same time, we haven't fully fixed it yet, but the valuations are looking a lot better on a lot of these companies. And also, even though some of these businesses might have launched a token before they had PMF, these businesses are about 4 or 5 years more mature than they used to be, and there's been a natural culling of the pack because the ones that couldn't hack it have died. And so, you know, if I were to try to construct

a bull case here, and then finally, you have clarity, where you This crazy kabuki theater hand-wringing is about to be done. And you can actually provide value back for the first So, you know, watching, you know, if you were participating in crypto in like 2020 or 2021, you just look back in 2019 and be like, I could have bought these things at this price. And it's possible that that's sort of the situation that we're looking at. You got to pick the right assets, you can't just close your eyes and, you know, throw a dart. But, if it feels to me like we've answered a lot of these challenges, and we might actually be entering a bull market for tokens here.

Well, I think you can't forget we're like right in the middle of a very bad bear market right now. And if you follow the 4-year cycles, which, you know, whether or not that's true or not, uh there's definitely a world I can see in maybe 6 to 12 months' time where the market starts looking a lot better, tokens start coming back, and then it's very sentiment-driven tokens. Like, there's a lot of momentum that comes from belief, etc., that equity obviously doesn't have. And so, you look at someone like BlackRock, I'm pretty sure it was, which bought Uni tokens at some stage or is about to buy them. BlackRock. Yeah, Uni and then Apollo and Morpheus. Exactly. So, like, these kind of things are happening, and they're they're buying tokens.

They're not saying UniSwap, I'll buy your equity, which I think they did have equity at some point in time. They're buying the tokens directly. And I think we spoke before about Morpheus or some of these other DeFi protocols pushing more of the value into the token, not the equity. So, they're going the other way completely. It's very confusing right now cuz like I work with, you know, more pre-seed startups that, you know, some of them are finding sort of PMF now, and they're more like products. They're like abstracting crypto, as you guys know, and abstracting AI, etc. But, they're really user-facing, and I can't see a world where they need to launch tokens. I mean, they could. Some of the token launches might be for like network effects, etc., things you can't build with just equity alone. But, on the flip side, I think more protocols,

infrastructure, I think that they'll continue launching tokens long-term. I can't see a world where that doesn't happen. But, at the application layer, I think we spoke yesterday as well with that Pump Fun was kind of the first at the frontier of capturing a lot of that value in their equity entity and then launching a token as well, obviously, later on. But, I think that is going to be a trend that continues as well around applications actually trying to opt for equity in an equitable way through that. Well, the other thing to, you know, I When I first saw those announcements for UniSwap and Morpheus, like, what's interesting? Why are they buying the token? But, then I remembered, you know, it's very common It would be very common for a large strategic partner, right?

Like, that's happened with ICE and Polymarket to take a big equity stake in the business. Morpheus has no equity. They only have tokens. So, the only option for Apollo to do if they want to partner and take this financial stake and have a stake in the business is to buy the token. Right. And actually, I I don't think that I think that we'll look back and say that's an obvious cuz if you're a token project right now, you really only have two sets of buyers. You've got the liquid funds, and then you've got these big strategics. And I think that they're going to be more and more and more important in the coming years here. I also just as on the point on the exchange side, too, I think the the incentive for exchanges is actually shifting in a much more positive direction

because they make a lot of their money from trading tokens, right? There's kind of Bitcoin and ETH, and then you have the long tail of tokens. If no one wants to trade these things, if they're down only, like, there's only their their revenues are going to drop off. I think they're actually incentivized to do the right thing here, and uh yeah, I think they're incentivized to do the right thing. I agree with that. Yeah, they The exchanges are kind of like uh everybody hates the investment bankers for like breaking the IPO and making the incentives terrible, right? The IPO. I think that's basically the equivalent of like centralized exchanges sometimes when they're extremely predatory, like we've seen in the past for token projects. Maybe the last thing I would say that I haven't mentioned is like post-clarity, if you have you know, assets that actually do um you

know, have regulatory approval and meet regulatory requirements, they could be distributed through brokerages, right? Um and the ability to buy these assets more easily with the place where you're already buying your equities, I think that could make a large difference in addition to institutional buyers like actually, you know, buying these public assets in size. I mean, ideally, as a token investor myself, uh a lot of this value accrues to the token itself as opposed to the equity. I think as an investor, it's more liquid, especially if you want to go on primary markets to get that token out, you can get it out a lot earlier than what you can get it out, obviously, with IPO and equity. So, um I can definitely see a world where, you know, as the assets expand in crypto, you know, we have thousands of

assets now you can invest in, it's never been easier to launch assets. The pool of investable assets gets smaller and smaller, I think, over time. You have like Polymarket, Hyperliquid, some of these major names popping up. The industry is consolidating in real time right now as well. And so, I think for me, tokens would never go away. If anything, I can see more exper- experimentation getting done when the regulation comes out in the next 6 to 12 months. And I'm very optimistic on how tokens look long-term. They're going to look like Some will look like equity equity structures, and that's going to be great for the space, and there's going to be actual enforceable rights that those token holders get. I do think that there's still room for some token experimentation to be done to like gather network effects. Like, obviously, AI is making moats much

tougher to come by right now for any startup. And I do think that tokens can be used for as a way for startups to actually overcome some of these things that AI sort of does to their business in terms of network effects with what what they can achieve with a token. All right, final question for you guys here. What do you think the What do you think the next bull market for tokens looks like? So, in the past, this space has had very, call it like, high almost like beta, right? Like, you literally could be a monkey at a dartboard and buy whatever whatever like when there's a bull market, it's it's often actually there's a I guess negative incentive, like the stuff that's the hypiest, the furthest away from any prospects of revenue like that gets rewarded the most. And then there's just a crash, and then we do it all over

again. Is that pattern going to hold and stay the same? Do you expect something different when this bull market for token tokens does come back? What do you think? I mean, I could see basically the cream rising to the top, um and the tokens that everybody knows uh will get, you know, will um address clarity requirements, basically get approved through um through that framework. Those will get, you know, all bids first, I think. Um and then projects that have just been waiting to launch a token for the right time and do have great metrics, those guys are going to come next. Um And yeah, I I don't know if it's going

to be like I don't think it will be like throwing it at a dartboard um and you win. If we do, then we're we probably haven't fixed the problems, um frankly. I think the token bull market starts when clarity comes out. I do think this is actually the institutional bull cycle, and I think things can get really crazy really fast. So, right now, sentiment is really low. I think all of us can admit that. But, um I do think there's a lot of capital on the sidelines, especially from, you know, big institutions, TradFi, etc., that wants to get exposure to some of these tokens, but they just want to make sure that when they invest, they can trust that the assets they're investing in will hold value long-term. So, I'm excited about, you know, many of the apps, products, infrastructure that we have right now in crypto. I think

infrastructure is consolidating, but we're really at the very start of the application era, and I think there's going to be some amazing app tokens to invest in quite early uh that launch tokens over equity as well in this next sort of bull cycle we have. So, I think it's kind of crazy to say right now, and you have to be half insane to like believe in tokens coming back, but it's not going to be beta like all tokens coming back, but there will be like probably 50 to 100 assets, I think, in crypto that are tokens that do really really well in the next 5 to 10 years. I think if you can spot them in this bear market if they're out already or if you spot them coming out in the next 6 to 12 months and hold on to those, I think you can do extremely

well. I agree with that. I think just from my perspective, maybe to to close here, I think consolidation um I think one thing that crypto's never had is, you know, even But you were to look at the internet companies in the dot com bubble as a analog here, most people who made money in the internet didn't do it maybe made a little bit in the dot com bubble, but really where all the money was made in the long grind up. I mean technology's been in basically a bull market for the last 25 years. I'd rather be investing during that time than, you know, hoping and praying during the the IPO or the the dot com bubble. I think we're about to move into that. That doesn't mean that every project has to win. I think there'll be consolidation. You can already see it happening across multiple

sectors in the market today. Um and what we've never had before in crypto is you never had the opportunity if you're a crypto investor to invest in something which is generating a lot of revenue, right? Like you've never literally projects have never competed on that vector before, which is insane. But now that the option exists and I think that generally people would rather buy something that they think might go up 20 or 30% a year, but it's pretty sure and you can look at it and be like this is a real business, this is a real thing, than take punts on 1000 X's that all go to zero over time, which is what has been the case. I actually think both will happen. I think when the bull market comes back, that speculative side of crypto I don't think will ever truly go away and I think both

of them can feed off each other to be honest. >> Absolutely. I agree. All right, guys. That's the time we have. Thanks very much. This was fun to [music] do live. Thanks everyone.