🚨LIVE: Coinbase Buying HYPE?! Saylor Buys MORE! DeFi Dad & Sam Kazemian Join

Transcript

[music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> 17 floor.

[music] We'll see you around the timeline. [music] Feels good to be back. >> I think The Rollup [music] is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie [music] are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding into my library potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Connect Day [music] one here. [music] >> [music]

[music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music]

>> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. So bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] >> [music]

[music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] [music] Heat. [music] Heat. [music] Corolla [music] is headed to the top. If

we're not already at the top, we're going to the tongue. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry [music] come together for the roll up. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

>> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. [music] Roll up. It's headed [music] to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the tugos. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the rollup.

[music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Five. Zoom [music] out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go.

[music] >> Welcome to the nest. See you on the show. >> Yes, sir. [snorts] >> Wow. Here we are. >> If Sailor sold, we were so back. If he didn't sell, it's all over. >> Turns out we didn't sell. He bought and it's not over yet. >> He bought and he raised his cash holdings. >> Yeah. I think I saw a tweet from Anom that was like if this if he's just gonna dilute MSTR shareholders and buy more Bitcoin until this thing goes up, then I think we should just forget about him.

>> I saw another tweet from uh Tulip that says, "Sailor non-accreatively diluting MSTR holders today is probably your sign of how desperately he needs Bitcoin to go up. Expect the market to continue hunting him." >> Wow. Wow. Well, ladies and gentlemen, you are watching the rollup. Welcome to Tokenization Tower, the Nest broadcasting live from the financial capital of the world. Today's June 8th. We have a great show ahead. Shout out to Plume. We're here at the Nest powering their onchain infrastructure asset management product, the vault product that EtherFi deposited $100 million into last week, Rod, that we had them on. What a Monday. What a weekend as well.

>> Let's start there, Andy. How was your weekend? It >> was great. I mean, the Knicks were on Friday. Huge win. 20 >> game three tonight. game three tonight. Then we got >> Saturday was super chill. I took it easy. And then yesterday went to So was a vibe. Um and here we are. >> Game three, we got the Knicks in four. >> I mean, come on. >> Come on. We got to get it. We got to see the Knicks. Don't I mean, come on. >> We're in New York. >> Come on. Come on. >> Come on.

>> Um great weekend day topics. Yeah, weekend was good. Nice and chill. Played some golf. Enjoyed some sun. Weather's been beautiful down here. You know, >> I bet it has. >> I'm used to the Florida summers. They honestly don't bother me in the slightest. I like the warmth. Yeah, >> especially after being inside in the AC all day. So, >> uh it was good. Good family weekend. Got some got some air. Got some sun. No complaints over here. >> Nice. Today we got Defi Dad coming into the tower in about 20 minutes. Um guys in the chat, we see you. We will uh be vibing with you all day. Then we have Sam from Fracks joining as well. So, two in the tower. Robbie's coming up to the tower as of tomorrow. Uh, so that should be that should be great. Have you up here for a couple days? As always, our

topics of the day are powered by Treasure. Um, use code rollup 10 to get yourself a treasure at treasure.io. Today we're going to move into markets, weather, and opening segments. Rob, before we do, let me tell you actually about Fracks, our premier stablecoin partner, OpenStable Borderless, the future of digital money. fracks.com [music] to learn more. as as a beautiful day in New York. We got the window cracked. It's 73°. It's a little sunny. It's a little windy. The Knicks are on. I mean, so just down here, you've got like barricades of police. Like I'm talking like I'm talking like a robo army like full deployment vibes. Like they're all just standing there in like

these massive groups just just like preparing for tonight. Like already, you know, it's 1 p.m. >> Well, uh Trump's going to the game. Yeah, it is. >> So, enhanced security measures. I saw people >> TSA >> TSA like security measures. They told people to get there a couple hours ahead of time uh because of the enhanced security. And I heard people were camping out in line in front of the stadium. >> No way. >> No way. >> That was uh that was the update. Beautiful day for it, too. 73 degrees, zero chance of rain. Maybe a little ah says sunny. No complaints there. I'm flying in tomorrow. Should be a great week. ETH comp going on mix in four.

World Cup starts on Thursday. Where place would you rather be? >> I'll be there. >> Sponsored by Relay. >> As always, guy. >> Get you wherever you need to go. >> relay.link. Use relay.link for your crosschain swaps. They are going to power your crosschain swaps for our weather segment. As always, let's get into the markets. I know that's what you guys want to hear about. I'm going to tell you first about dinari, our onchain tokenized US equities partner. Bringing real world stocks onchain. Explore onchain access to public markets. Visit dinari.com. [cheering] It's green. 2% on Bitcoin, 3% on ETH, 2% on soul, 3% on chain link, 5% on near. I think that might be a little low actually.

>> It was looking pretty scary. Um on Friday going into the weekend, uh equities sold off pretty high. >> Everything sold off. Zcash got cut in half uh due to the hack that we heard. >> It literally cut in half. Went all the way down to 300. Um, and so now we're getting bouncing back a little bit. Uh, Zcash is up 450. I think it's up there. Uh, Bitcoin is looking decent. Um, ETH ETH [snorts] is a big loser in this mix right here and everything else holding up okay.

>> Um, I mean, Andy, we were talking, you know, last week about the relative strength trade. These things started to unbundle and unwind a little bit. >> They did. Um, and it looked like nothing was going to hold up in a Bitcoin bare market, but maybe Bitcoin isn't in as much of a bare market as we thought. Sailors holding on for dear life. Uh, we didn't get into the the the 50s uh or lower as we had suspected we might not not out of the woods yet, but uh things are looking a little bit more promising.

Maybe just taking a bit more of a slower approach to forming this bottom. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we'll see. It's a nice bounce. Um, definitely gives you some breathing room. Markets are, you know, rebounding. It's It's nice to see that the leaders Venice near Hype. Um, you know, we'll go over Coinbase news today. Hype had a nice breakout. Um, Zcash as well getting them. Wow. That Zcash DAT is up 45% today. >> Oh my goodness. >> Wow. >> Oh my goodness. Yeah. I didn't do much um on Friday, you know, Thursday, Friday, everything was down significantly. Um I didn't do a whole lot except I bought I did buy a little bit of hype under 60. I got in like 57 58.

>> Sick. >> So I'm >> probably going to end up doing uh >> what's that >> being a nice pro probably going to end up being a nice buy >> I think. So I mean maybe we re we see those levels again, but I think I'm a buyer of hype in the 50s. Um >> yeah, I know. >> Otherwise, >> someone wanted to get it at 50. Yeah, I don't know if we get all the way down to 50, but anything in the 50s I feel pretty good about. Um, yeah, otherwise not a whole lot of position changes. Just kind of held on for dear life over the weekend. Things started to rebound a little bit, which is great to see. So, um, what about you? What are you looking at over there?

>> Sailors dunking on everyone. There's no second best. Yo, W Robbie for behind the dip. Yeah, that was a nice nice dip by. Um I'm honestly just hanging on per hype and Bitcoin hoping for you know Venice and Near to also have some strength hold up a little bit here and you know just seeing if this relative strength trade can come back right like I think it it was here it's kind of gone away. Is it though? I don't know. We'll see. So that's kind of like how I'm thinking about it. Make say G give me $50 hype entry. Make Haze sell. Yeah.

Apparently, apparently there was rumors of him buying back and he was just like, "Nah, I did not buy back. >> Did not do that." >> Yeah. [laughter] >> So, we've got we've got to make him buy back higher. >> As always, guys, our markets are powered by Zama. Use Zama.io for upcoming new portfolio products as well as for all your private confidential transfers, of stable coins, and other assets on Ethereum and EVM blockchains. Let's get into the news, guys. Before we do, let me tell you about Near. the blockchain design for AI native applications and autonomous agents. Use near.com for some of your best portfolio management in the world as well as near.ai for private inference. Subduing the world Zcash update. Alrighty. Well, >> what's going on here? Um,

>> so we knew that Zcash was going to launch a new pool. Uh, guys, if you are curious about the Zcash situation, we had a great great update from Mert uh on the show on Friday. And so, uh, this essentially tells the story of what happened. Uh, you know, obviously Shielded Labs had hired a white hat to go in, use the state-of-the-art AI tools, literally not even open to the public yet. Uh these companies are now red teaming their their software engineering employees which means that they are um essentially access to the frontier models before they're released to the public for like safety and testing purposes which is is great because then they can use them to you know tighten up their protocols before

you know they would get into the hands of a malicious actor. And so here um you know uh we we hear the story of uh you know the zodle protocol R&D an issue had been discovered and I would need to be read in. Uh and so we knew that this was an issue with the orchid pool. Uh this was a vulnerability in Zcash. Uh it was one of the most uh you know important but also one of the most quickly resolved after it was found uh because of its significance. Uh, so we knew that there was going to be a new pool that's launched. Uh, that pool is called Ironwood.

And >> Ironwood. >> Yeah, Ironwood is also the, uh, name of the golf course up where I used to live. It's an absolute dog track. >> Um, if we scroll down a little bit, [laughter] we can we can read on. Um, >> so like, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Please. >> Well, we can No, no, please. You please, >> please. I'm just trying to understand. So, they were able to come out and say like like um I think Josh Jos brought that post. He was like, "Ironwood is the next upgrade and that is when we're going to find out about the potential infinite minted Zcash tokens." Is that correct?

>> That's right. That's right. Because uh the hard fork by implementing this pool, it does trigger a hard fork and ultimately the community is going to have to approve this hard fork and this new pool with governance. But what happens is there's an accounting method implemented into the protocol called turnstyle accounting. And was telling us a little bit about this, but what happens is everyone's going to be asked to migrate from the old orchid pool to the new Ironwood pool. You would expect everyone that's alive and able to migrate their coin so that they're safe from the vulnerability. any one that's left in the orchard pool is going to be, you know, that we're we're going to be able to tell that there's going to be

some funds left, but it should be negligible. And everyone that moves to the new pool is going to be safe and sound and cozy in this new pool. So, >> that's essentially what we have. If there are coins that move, we're going to be able to identify them. And so, the theory is that there this wasn't um exploited. If it is exploited and it moves, we'll we'll know. And if it never moves, then no harm, no foul. There's coins that are locked in this pool. They're never going to move. Doesn't matter, you know, if a tree falls in the woods, no one's around to hear it. Does it even make a sound, right? So, this turn style accounting method is going to give us without the sha beyond a shadow of a doubt, uh, whether the vulnerability was exploited by, you

know, u moving these funds from the old pool to the new pool. and Josh kind of walks through, you know, the methodology here and ultimately, you know, what still has to happen in order for this iron ironwood pool to go live. >> Got it. Okay. So, there was obviously these crazy tight timelines, these deployment risks. Um, you know, there was reorg concerns. People were worried about just like about the integrity of the chain. Um, honestly, this seems like I saw this tweet that was like Zcash is the most interesting thing right now. It gives like early Bitcoin vibe like got hacked so volatile up a ton down a ton teams working on shipping patches bug fixes. Um Arwant also uh made a note to

tell me that he is nibbling some Zcash around these levels or lower actually. Um and that he's >> our quant he's he's fully prepared for Zcash to trade in the 100 to 200 range. >> Uh but he is nibbling on Zcashier. So guys, take take that for what it is. Let's get rolling into Dan Tapiro. He says 5 years from now, 99% of stable coins will not be dollar-based. This is an incredibly incredibly interesting take. >> I come to the markets world trading currencies. That's what I did my whole life. I can pretty much guarantee that 5 years from now, 99% of stable coins will not be dollar-based. I I'm so confused at this. I'm so this is such a peculiar take that he's anticipating within the

within five years the entire stable coin market to be inverted right now 99% of stable coins are dollar-based 1% are not and he's calling this to reverse >> so let's go ahead and play the video and maybe there's some some nuance here we can pick out >> so you talk about like what's another area we're investing in we're interested in I come from that the the markets world from trading currency That's what I did in my old life. And I can pretty much guarantee you, I'd bet you just about anything that 5 years from now, 99% of stable coins will not be dollar-based. You're going to have yen. You're going to have Indonesian rupia. You're going to have euro. You're

going to have all the currencies around the world will have their digital equivalent. We haven't even started that. And yet in the last five years, we've gone from zero stable coin trading volume to 33 trillion last year. So you talk about like what's another area we're investing in, we're interested in. I come from that the markets where >> I get like I get the investment thesis here. Like I get it. These are, you know, there's a lot of reasons why the rupia or the rupee or the ruble would actually end up, you know, becoming a stable coin and having this, but to say that it's like to say that the majority or more are going to be non dollarbased is is just kind of a weird

take. >> Guys, can you and maybe Andy and I are missing something here. It seems so ridiculous. So, please inform us if we're missing something. I just dis I just flat out disagree. I think the vast majority of stable coins are going to be dollar-based. I think maybe as you said some of these other currencies are going to gain some market share. But if you look at simply I would anticipate that the stable coin currency uh demographics is a reflection of the current uh currency for foreign exchange markets out there right now in which the dollar does dominate if I'm not mist. says, "Dtab has that beautiful confluence of decades of experience while still in bleeding edge. Global digitization of

other currencies is huge," which I agree with. Um, it's just the it's the it's the bigger than the dollar part that I that that I'm kind of struggling to get over. All right, guys. Let's get into uh Venice because I think people are excited about this one. Did not underperform at all at all. It has completely it completely done well. Before we do, let me tell you about Infinifi, our DeFi partner, on the show here. Building DeFi infrastructure for simpler access to onchain yield, liquidity, and capital allocation. Visit infinifi.xyz to learn more. Guys, we've got Eric Vorhees here [snorts] getting excited, getting bullish on uh Anam and Banks's show talking about V2 minds. And yeah, let's see what he says

because I think uh I mean look Rob, Venice is trading at 17 12. >> It is um >> it has held up extremely well. >> It looks great. It it touched 184. Um let's hear what Eric has to say. >> [snorts]

>> Eric's so bullish, man. Always. That's He's so bullish, man. He's so bullish. [laughter] Go ahead and pause it there. Chat says it's muted, guys. Leo, we we got it muted there. You just go ahead and you can't hear the video. Just go ahead and pause it there, Leo. Um, so Eric's basically telling us about um Thanks, guys.

Um, Eric's basically telling us about uh What's up, Clemente? Um, Eric's basically telling us that they have this new like ability in Venice to have multiple like I guess what agentic capabilities Rob that are like bringing together I I mean kind of sounds like a swarm but it sounds like all these agentic uh firms and companies are focusing on um I guess what you could say like the model and the model improvement but you know Eric seems to think that there's a big big improvement here on not the model improvement and just doing the um you know actual improvement of uh getting these different models together. James says other countries

need to defend their own currencies by creating their own or all their citizens will auto change money dollars. They have to not allow that to default. Dollar remains king. We agree with that. What's going on As? What's going on Libran Crypto? Clemente, how you doing, man? Love your videos, dude. Honestly, one of your biggest fans, one of your biggest closet stealth fans over here. So uh keep up keep up the uh keep fighting the good fight. >> If you >> are a power user and you know how to >> you guys should be able to hear the video now >> put modules of AI systems together in certain ways you can actually end up getting results that are better than any given model itself.

>> I certainly think so. >> And so we're building >> we're building a way for our users to assemble these things into what are called >> you can think of them like agents. You can think of them like characters that are more advanced exchange. It's been something we've been working on in the background and it's getting closer and closer to something. But I'm very excited about it because it creates this sort of emergent these emergent properties of AI resources. >> Yeah. I think what he's doing now because >> and it's it's one of those things that like all the labs are focused on their model. He's able to models.

>> You actually just combine these things in creative interesting ways, you get stuff that no model can do on it. >> I know that's a bit of a vague answer. That's something I'm excited about. >> We have we have an agentic chat in Venice now. Um, which is sort of the first >> primordial version of this. >> So when you ask it a question, it's doing all sorts of things in the background that a normal model wouldn't do. this interrupt protocol while it's been cool to just privacy uh around these frontier models. And I think Eric has the ability and the opportunity to do something special like he's kind of pointing at what you can do when you're working with multiple models. And so if you think if you're working on a

foundational model, you can obviously try to push that as as far ahead as possible, but you may not get the ability to work on certain use cases unless you combine multiple models. And that's a fundamentally different different proposition that he's bringing to the table. So I think this is very cool. I think that we don't hear a lot about this uh in the current market and I think Eric is a terrific founder generational talent. He's the guy to do this. >> Yeah. I mean he's got it. So and what I mean three o OG Killer says 30,000 hype strong. Yeah man. I mean dude Per looks great. Hype looks great right now. They just announced this Coinbase thing. Like like let's get to this, right? I mean,

come on. Um, let's keep it rolling here. I I think we had a couple more things, but man, we got to get to this hype thing. Um, this is like the this is the news of the day, right? Is it Is it Is it not? I mean, so let's look at at Brian's take here as well. Um, more AI stuff. Honestly, like I I can't even I can't wrap my head around this this stuff right now. Pull it up, but like I don't I don't I I don't have much for you guys here. Demand for intelligence is near infinite. 80% of workloads will be running on 90% cheaper models within 12 to 18 months.

>> Yeah, >> I don't know. This is just bullish bullish for Venice. >> I need to get to 10K hype. Yeah, I know. Same man. >> Look, I think um what Brian is suggesting here is and I read this in the Catrini article this morning where we kind of moved from this paradigm of token maxing to token panic. And so there was uh you know people like we had a wave of AI layoffs. You saw Cash App and Block, you saw Microsoft, you saw uh Coinbase. Um these guys laid off you know a significant portion of their workforce. Um this is during the token maxing era which lasted about few weeks.

>> Um and then [laughter] and then you had the realization that wait, we're spending so much on AI tokens. [laughter] Andy, we got to get you a drum set so you can hit it yourself. >> There you go. [laughter] Um, and so we had AI tokens. All of a sudden there was founders that really they they were like, "Hey, turns out these AI tokens cost money, too." And so they they said, "Hey, you know, we I mean there was one company that accidentally spent $500 million in tokens. Uber uh came out and it turned out they had spent their entire 2026 budget in the first quarter on tokens."

And so teams were totally taken aback and and caught off guard as far as how much they were spending on AI tokens because they encouraged their workers to use these tools thinking that they were going to make them more productive. Didn't really realize how much it costs for this token production. So that was the end of the token maxing era and now we're in this token panic era. >> Token panic era. >> And so now that you know these [laughter] model companies are monetizing, we're starting to see the consumers, right? these guys that are consuming tokens kind of draw back a little bit. And what Brian is suggesting here is that we're going to start moving a lot of the consumption from the expensive cloud models like anthropic claude, open AI to either open- source

models or smaller mini models. Uh and so you see, you know, the second one, 80% of workloads will be running on 99% cheaper models within 12 to 18 months. And if you're looking at the Chinese, you know, DeepSeek V4, these things are 10x cheaper. And the incremental loss in ability is like not that much. So you can get way more affordable models and not lose a lot of intelligence. >> Yeah, that's what I'm using on Venice, honestly. >> Yeah. And so Venice and Venice are routing consumption more through these open source models, >> dude. But have you used Venice, Rob?

>> Um, I've I've not. If you've never used Venice, I think you're going to say no. >> I've I have not used the the product, but I've chosen >> I think you need to buy a subscription, $20 a month, and go and enjoy a private uncensored AI experience and come back tomorrow. Cuz >> see what I what I like about >> it's unreal. >> Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but Venice is private, uncensored, great. I I have two things actually because right now I'm mostly using a chat GBT, right? I like that it knows like it's building a context window on my life.

>> Correct. You cannot do that with with so like I you know I'm going to go to Peru in a couple weeks, right? I'm planning this trip and I'm loading my entire itinerary into there for one in one chat and then I come back to it, you know, a week later and I'm like, "Hey, I want to do this. There's this thing going on. Tell me more about it. How can I do it? was the best way to experience it. And it's like, oh, well, I know your dates. I know when you're going to be there. You're going to get there on this day. You should do this. >> And it it memory. >> I just mean like >> I just mean when you go in there and you talk to the Venice like whatever LLM, it is it is liberating because you're like, "Wow." Like I know that

this is not going to some San Francisco data factory that is like, you know, going to be like like I'm not going to like this this prompt is not going to be used against me in court. >> That is, >> you know, this prompt is not going to come up in in a prosecutor's file against me in court. >> You know what I mean? doing anything like wrong. But like >> I'm trying my best to avoid getting taken to court anyway, but in the case that it happens, I would it's it's reassuring to know that they couldn't use my chat history against me. The other thing that I I think I like about Venice, but again, I haven't used it and I'm probably going to get clowned for not using Venice. I did just buy the

token as we were on the stream. It looks great. So, shout out Eric. But um Rob just bought Venice on the stream, guys. I can't lie. I'm looking at this hyperlquid dip and I'm like, "Oh my, oh god, I gotta get more." >> So So Andy, because you've used Venice, you would know better than I would. The other benefit to it is that it routes your model or it routes your query across several different models, right? So it does it does it not aggregate and almost like open router like I can hit Venice's LLM and then Venice is going to say to itself, "Hey, I should put this into Claude or or it's >> well you can just pick you can just like pick model you want." doesn't it doesn't pick.

>> So there's like a set of anonymous uh models you can use and then a set of private models that you can use. They're all uncensorable. The anonymous ones means that your data, your prompt inputs and outputs are still going to be saved to the model providers cloud. So Anthropic will know if you're using clawed and anonymous, but they'll never know that it's you. Venice obuscates your your identity. If you do private, it's not only effectively is it anonymous in that sense and that Venice has no idea that you know like Venice has no insight into the prompt into what you're using but also the data and the prompt back and forth is not given back to the model provider to be saved in

their cloud. So that's kind of like the two modes they have. But I want to move off of AI. I want to get back into crypto. Let's get into strategy. Before we do guys, I have to tell you about our infrastructure for crosschain swaps partner Lee. Building infrastructure for crosschain swaps digit routing across the onchain economy. To explore smoother crosschain execution, visit lee.fi. Rob just bought more Venice. VV is a beast. Is now time to 20x a hype buy. Okay. Um, let's quickly >> I'm not doing that. Um, long H100 GPU compute one-year contract rental rate.

Okay, >> interesting. I said, how do you expose get exposure to that? And Josh Brit says you can trade that on lighter. >> So, you're longing the rental price of GPU compute of like an Nvidia computer. You're you're longing that. >> I think there's also a market for that on um the guy that used to be at FTX, Brett Harrison. He's got it's called AR Architect, right? He's going he's trying to go deep into this compute these compute markets. That one could be underrated for a little points farming for anyone who's interested.

>> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, we've got here strategy. Yeah. Go ahead. >> Yeah. So, Rob, I tweeted I I was like, if Sailor So, this is the market that we're in. If Sailor sells, we're so back. If Sailor doesn't sell, we're it's all over. Wow, what a great market. Like, fantastic. So, we come out, we come to find out today that our guy has certainly not sold. In fact, he's bought and tops up his USD reserve by 100 million. This is like giving me David Sheamus hyperlquid strategies vibes right here. So, good job, Sailor here, I would say. And it kind of seems like his whole shenanigans have kind of slowed down. Not in like a nothing burger, but you know, I would say I think the

situation with Sailor has calmed down >> is what I would say. Obviously, what he, you know, he did sell 32 bitcoin to try to like signal to the market that he was willing to do this. Um, the reason that he needed to do that is to to to reassure the buyers of stretch that he could pay the dividend. >> Um, so if we're checking Stretch today, TRC is >> 96 and a half. So, it's not totally up. >> It is down a bit. It's up from where it was yesterday. I mean, it got all the way down to 90. Um, >> does anyone hold Stretch in the chat?

Like, has anybody had any experience trading that thing or holding it or doing anything with it? Like, have you gotten the yield, the dividend? Let us know if anyone has ever used it. I'm super curious. >> They also voted to pay this dividend twice per month. I think that came out today. And so, you know, that should again help to reassure market participants, buyers of stretch that they are going to get this dividend. It's going to it's going to stay at peg. But the market isn't, you know, pricing it at peg right now. It's at a bit of a discount. Um, >> still at 96, right? >> Yeah. So, they raised their cash holdings to a billion dollars. Um, but I think they have something like three billion in annual or maybe a billion and a half in annual dividends

that they have to pay. >> Yeah. >> So, they're going to need a lot more cash on hand. And >> well that was why you know everyone was hoping that he had sold >> to have raised that cash to like >> well turns out he did raise cash runway he did raise cash but the way he raised the cash was he sold Micro Strategy shares and people are now saying well he himself >> he's going to keep diluting this the shareholders >> he himself said that he wasn't going to sell Micro Strategy shares when the MNAV was under 1.2 >> and turns out it was pretty much at 1.2 too when he sold these shares. He raised the cash that reassured stretch, but >> he diluted uh Bitcoin per share. And so he's really playing with fire right

here. He needs Bitcoin to go back up so that the MNAV gets fixed and so that he can sell more shares and raise his cash position >> to buy more Bitcoin and to pay the dividends. If Bitcoin goes I mean if if Bitcoin goes down or Stretch doesn't really get repegged >> there's going to be a very very sticky situation where he either needs to sell Bitcoin in a down Bitcoin market or he needs to sell more Micro Strategy shares under the 1.2 MNAV which is going to dilute >> don't want to do >> the stockholders even more. So he's in a very precarious situation. Sailor needs Bitcoin to go up. if it doesn't there we're gonna get you know you kind of you kind of mentioned right he's

either gonna sell Bitcoin and Stretch is going to get repagged and everything's going to be fine or he's going to buy Bitcoin and he's going to buy Bitcoin and everything's going to be fine that works right now but if the MNAV gets too low or if Stretch gets too low he ends up in a sticky situation where he either buys Bitcoin but it's not good or he sells Bitcoin and it's not good and so >> we're really in a sticky situation for for Sailor right now. Yeah, I Yeah, let's actually get into the next one, >> right? So, this is the counter argument. >> This is the counter argument, guys, because if you're bullish, flood here. I think he bought a ton of Bitcoin at around the 60K level. Uh, I think he bought a ton of stretch as well. And so, he says STRC rep BTC bottom shorters

trapped rush [snorts] of liquidity from equities into Bitcoin summer 26. >> And so, part of Flood's thesis, I don't know if he bought Stretch, but he did buy. >> He did. He did. >> Okay, so there you go. So he bought at least he said he did. >> He bought Stretch. He bought Bitcoin. Again, at least he what? That's what he said he did. >> And then part of the Bitcoin thesis is that you have early anthropic open AI and SpaceX investors that are set for a massive liquidity event over the summer as these IPOs go live. Uh these guys are going to get unlocks of billions and billions of dollars. They're going to dump their SpaceX anthropic and OpenAI shares on the market. Maybe there's going to be retail investors and not post IPO investors that are going to

pick up those shares. And but regardless, these early investors that are getting these liquidity events are going to need place in order to put their capital. And part of the thesis is that they're going to go into Bitcoin because they're technology investors. Uh they're not going to go into this, you know, really over, you know, overheavy uh stock market. They're going to look to get into something that has relatively underperformed. >> Yeah. which is Bitcoin >> and can still like it hasn't pumped yet >> and can still express this alternative technology futuristic view.

>> Yeah. You know, like when you're in crypto and and and it's a bull and you're just kind of like, wow, like what hasn't pumped yet? What is left to buy? I feel like feel like that's the situation going to be happening at macro scale is just like, all right, what's left to what are we what's left to buy in this market? Okay, it's doing it's it's Bitcoin as a as a large I mean >> copper pumped, commodities pumped, oil pumped, stocks and equities are going live. Equities are, you know, basically flying, but the IPOs are shaking things up. They had a rough day on Friday, but you know, Trump said that Netanyahu is going to have to listen to him.

War shenanigans are are happening, but um equities are doing well. They erased all those losses and so Yeah. Yeah. What else hasn't hasn't outperformed? It's been it's been these tokens. >> Yeah. How about the South Korean index? >> Yeah. Circuit breakers. >> Yeah. >> Before we get to that. Um, this is another developing story. >> Oh gosh. Oh gosh. >> Let's get it up on the show. We're not going to spend too much time on this, but you have to call it out. I mean, you have Eric Vorhees and V and and [laughter] Venet just doing an incredible job on the entire AI front.

It's almost like Eric Vorhees like won the game, moved on playing another level, whereas SBF lost and had to restart >> restarts the game. He rage quit, got thrown in jail, and now he's trying to get back to a new game. >> I Trump has said that he's not going to pardon SBF. I don't know. I don't I mean you could probably check the poly market on this one but I don't what what do you >> Josh says he was short STRC at 99.97 looking to long like low 90s had a long at 92 closed at 95 looking to relocate next Bitcoin dip crazy >> guys SPF released from custody in 2026 has a 7% chance on poly market

>> no way >> 7% and it has it's hardly moved it it moved from 5% >> to uh uh from 5% to 7% today. So people, >> dude, we're going to pull up Poly Market and we're going to pull up the Hyperlquid ecosystem page and we're going to do some fun screen sharing and we're going to show you guys what we're looking at from from the Clarity Act to the the markets to the NBA Finals to Hyperlquid stats, uh what we're buying. Before we do, we're going to get into our daily equity segment. Again, this is our equities focused, our stock market focused [cheering] segment of the show powered by our friends at Dinari. So, we're going to pull that up here in just a moment and go through the the dumping South Korean stock index because it is

down bad. I don't know if any of you guys have been, you know, playing around in the Korean equities market. I know I've seen people get excited, but I actually had the the guy from Salana um in here. What's his name? >> While you think of his name, let's play the animation. We're going to open up the next segment. Daily Equity powered by going to get into >> Yeah. All righty, guys. The Cosby shock is a warning about crowded AI trades. South Korea's Cosby index reportedly fell 8.4% at the open on June 8th, triggering a

circuit breaker halt, sharp unwind of crowded AI and semiconductor trades. Guys, I must tell you, I was at the bar on Friday watching the Knicks game, and I was talking to a dude that played lacrosse at Dartmouth and now works at Blackstone, and he said the majority of his equities portfolio is in 3x levered semiconductor ETFs. [laughter] And I looked at him and I said, "It's time to get the hell out of there, buddy." Um, so this is happening. SKH Highix Samsung just sound >> um South Korea's is not trading like a broad neutral equity market right now.

It's trading like it's heavily tied to memory chips. Let's give some sadness to South Korea. Alex, hit something on there. Anything works. There you go. >> There it is. >> So, yeah, they triggered the circuit breaker. Um people were very excited got massacred. >> You know, there's still a lot of attention. Um I was reading the Catrini article today. They're talking about uh AI at the edge. There's still a massive demand for memory. Um but you know, we saw the equity unwind in the US on Friday. Uh that got reversed due to the war, but the Korean stock market is kind of playing a little bit into some of the fears that we had uh seen on Friday.

>> Oh god. >> So this is what >> not me buying more hype. [laughter] >> What's going on? >> Not me. Not me buying more hype on the daily equity segment, guys. I mean, look, just to kind of close this one out, when these crowded trades unwind, concentrated markets tend to break. South Korea's selloff is kind of like a warning, I think, to the global macro about the AI enthusiasm has been one of the most important macro positioning trades. But, of course, you know, as with anything, these things can uh unwind quickly. That's our daily equity segment powered by our friends at Dinari. Let's give them some love, Alex. Great, [applause] great, great, great team there at dinari. Thank you for being a part of the daily equity segment today, guys. Let's get into screen share. I got the hyperlquid dashboard up for you guys and Poly Market Rob. We got

quite a few things to go over. So >> T-waps, we're on, ladies and gentlemen. If you've been following the T- Wops, we are on. I mean, we are absolutely on. It is a beautiful day to be watching the hyperlquid trade happen. Um, it's up only. It's been looking good. It is 5 mil of the next 24 hours. Um, ETF flows have definitely declined, but it looks like we got about 25 mil today so far. Um, man, but we got outflows on Friday, 3 mil, first day of outflows for the Hyperlid ETFs, but net flows obviously very bullish, right?

>> Very bullish indeed. >> So, I think part of our thesis, Rob, is just this HIPP3, >> of course. And it had quite the pullback. >> Yeah. So what happened here? >> I don't know. I think this was just on the leveraging >> like imagine people >> this is open interest. So I think people imagine you know you have these long crypto trades on and then the market dumps and so you probably just take some of your uh AI or your stock trades and move them. Um but overall still looks good. Arban Jensen's pumping Korea stocks. It'll be fine. Cororude is mad, man. I'm up nicely though. I'm in at 340, so I am good. Nice kill. I don't even know what Cororu is, man. Um, and I

also don't even know how you can trade these Korean things. I I don't think they're available on Hyperlid. >> We don't have Korean stocks on Hyperlid. >> I don't believe so. >> How's the space? >> I'm trying to look right now. >> Um, good question. Good question. How is that looking? Okay, so what's our hyperlquid thesis here? Because yeah, SpaceX looks rough. Um, you know, obviously we're going to have more IPOs. SpaceX is just the first in IPO season. We're going to get Open AI. We're going to get Enthropic, right?

These are going to come shortly after SpaceX. So, we're going to get more markets that are going to list on Hyperlid and we're going to see more happen as a result of these preIPO markets. >> Um, however, we saw Bitcoin crash. These things are kind of starting to pick back up a little bit, but it feels like it could be a hyp a bare market rally. Our quant is nibbling >> on Zcash. >> On Zcash, these things are correlated. Even though there is some relative strength, it feels like these aren't negatively correlated.

>> Yeah. Uh Edith Edwards says, "Lit is better, Rob." Um I honestly, man, do you hold any lighter, Rob? tiny bit maybe 2% of my portfolio. >> Okay, dude. It actually looks great. Like it looks stronger than hype probably. H I don't know. It's hard to say. The problem with lighter right now, guys, is like yes, I think it's a great product. It's a great thing. It it's like we have Vlad in the studio on Wednesday. Actually, we're doing a full podcast with him, but like um it's still in like like it doesn't take much to fully put it right back into like a sideways or a downward movement where not that hype's pumped more and so it can pump more, but it's like yeah, it's kind of just like it doesn't take much

to put it back down into the low ones and then it's kind of like you're in a tough spot. Whereas even hype at 45, you're kind of like, well, this is fine because it was at 20, you know, a while ago. And so, I guess you can make the same argument for hype, but or for lit, but let's try to let's try to look at the the fundamentals here. >> Um, so I read the Catrini article. Hyperlid is the non-custodial antidote of FTX's failure. Founded after the collapse of FTX, Hyperlid delivered the first competitive decentralized perpetual exchange that could compete against centralized platforms. In doing so, Hyperlid dug into the roots of blockchain technology, launching their own layer 1 protocol to optimize for speed and low slippage. They've now gained material market share. And they

have a chart here that shows as of May 31st, Hyperlid is number four in if you combine centralized and decentralized perpetuals exchanges, Binance owns about 53% market share in this. >> Are you a CRI sub uh subscriber? I am. >> Is this a paid post? >> It is. >> Damn. Is it messed up to like screen share as paid post or is that cool? >> I don't want to get copyrighted, but >> yeah, I feel you. >> Should we do it anyway? >> I think we should at least like pull it up for our audience. Like, no one's going to pay $1,000 a year for Catrini.

I mean, you are. So, I mean, not like the whole thing, but like just give us like show us something, you know? >> Okay. All right. All right. >> Show the guys, right? Like, come on. Come on. You You guys want to see post? We got DeFi dad in the house. He's gonna come on in a few. Le let's have a look at Catrini. I mean, >> let's do it. Let's do it. >> I think it's fine. So, just at least just the Hyperlid section. Yeah. >> Yeah, of course. So, are we up? Let's Let's switch it over. >> Yeah. I still got I I still got Hyperlid dashboard. Just real quick, guys. Looking at uh PER and Hyperlid strategies. They still look very strong.

Um they're outperforming Hyperlid by a good fair margin as you guys can see uh very consistently. And um are you still in? They still got the 141 million. >> Still all in after the the uranium rotation, >> dude. Oh my gosh. I checked uranium. Oh my gosh. Smashed. Like it's up two and a half% today, but it completely got wrecked. Like if I had held and stayed in, >> I'd basically have a differential of 25 to 30% on where I'm currently at with PER or 35% even compared to where I sold uranium. So, not only is uranium down, but PER is also up a ton. All right,

guys. We're going to get Catrini's article up and Rob, you were saying that he had a bullish hyperlquid piece here. Let's let's walk through it. Let's not piss him off and promise we're not going to do this a lot, Satrini, but wanted to show the audience what you put. Um, and you know, Catrini has an incredible substack. It is paid. Go subscribe. He does a great job. Obviously, he sent someone to the straight of moose. He gained a lot of popularity here and obviously he's underwriting Hyperlid as part of this. Now, the initial piece of Hyperlid's portion in this article and this general article is his themes that are happening in 2026. He did the same thing in 2025. He talks a lot about AI and how that is progressing through the market. uh and he has great I mean he he makes calls on indices he does an

incredible job in this and so he is underwriting hyperlquid as one of his new ideas a potential new theme under on underway in 2026 the first part of this hyperlid uh piece is mostly an educational piece about per um he kind of walks through you know the difficulty of underwriting crypto as a whole is because it really lacks fundamentals um he says sometimes we've wondered maybe That's the point of crypto. [laughter] >> He's one of us. He's one of us. He's one of us.

>> He's also saying AI is going to magnify this lack of fundamentals. Uh and that's evidenced by Zcash getting cut in half as [laughter] a result of that bug. >> Uh and so one of the main value propositions of crypto as a whole has been permissionless transactions. Instead of a centralized entity like the DTCC unilaterally controlling who owns what and clearing every trade, a distributed ledger would transparently record who traded what when and at what price. The blockchain is governed by everyone owned by no one, which is great. And he also describes kind of the the that Hyperlid is the antidote to FDX's uh you know D.

>> I like that. I like that framing a lot. um there's no centralized uh you know uh point of control like there was at FTX. Um and he goes on to describe how um you know with settlement being permissionless virtually any claim asset or meme could be wrapped in a token and traded. Uh he talks about per as a whole. He describes per uh kind of from their origination by Robert Schiller which is an incredible name in this industry. He originally pioneered PERPS, describing them uh pretty much as a regular futures contract, but they don't have an expiration date. Talks through how funding uh helps keep PERPS um helps keep perpetual futures uh tied to their underlying uh despite not taking

custody, not having an expiration date, and not having an underlying spot price. This is how you have things like uh the preipo market still functioning. uh and he talks through these funding rates and then he talks about how centralized crypto exchanges have dominated perp trading to date. Uh ironically enough, PERPS were a big draw for traders to transact on FTX. Uh but obviously FTX was centralized. Uh and how uh FTX had one central uh you know control uh Hyperlid does not. And so here's here's really the chart that I think is most relevant here. Uh, and it talks about how Binance is currently dominating per's volume. Even though all we hear about is Hyperlid, Binance has still got the line amount of market

share at 53% as of the end of last month. Hyperlid comes in at just under 10% of Per's market share. Um, but the trend is shifting, right? More market share is going from Binance to Hyperlquid than the other way around. So, Binance is losing market share, Hyperlquid is gaining market share. uh encroaching on territory occupied by centralized rivals like Binance, Bybit, OKX, and Coinbase. They clear roughly 40 to 50 billion dollars a week in volume. Uh it's notably lower than some of their sex competitors, although the growth trajectory is inherent. Uh decentralized exchange val captured nearly a quarter of perpetual futures volume in December 25 occupies roughly twothirds of all

onchain per volume. Hyperlid is on the rise. also occupies sort of this backend for front ends like trade XYZ. Uh unlike FTX or other uh centralized exchanges, there is no centralized point of failure. Hyperlquid self-custody their own assets trade on fully onchain order books are subject to the liquidity provided by HLP. He walks through how HLP works, how it's essentially this communitydriven uh liquidity provider uh that takes the other side of the the trades on hyperlquid runs automated market maker strategies. The success of HLP vault is notable given the lack of institutional capital reinforcing the raise. Uh competing centralized

exchanges like Coinbase and Binance have raised over 500 million to2 billion respectively. Hyperlid has raised nothing. They've been entirely able to bootstrap HLP on their own. As a reward to these liquidity provid liquidity providers, Hyperliquid air dropped almost uh 310 million Hype tokens in November of 2024 in that Genesis airdrop. Uh so it's really incentivizing the community. Uh and then here, Hype is the native token to Hyperlquid's layer 1 blockchain. Uh functioning as both an exchange and a network token. One can think of hype as an equity interest in the hyperlquid decks which the fees thrown off to the HLP being treated as cash flow of the business. So it

positions cash flow to HLP. Hyperlid is the network token of the hyperlquid blockchain. This is what makes hype compelling. Unlike the mimemetic majority of crypto, Bitcoin included where they have these fugazi sort of value accreative mechanisms right you have more value on the network the network is going to be worth something and so you know the network token has to be worth something right hyperlquid doesn't you know have this uh this mimetic property it has you know real cash flows real interest real activity generates real legitimate cash flow on top of that there's a buyback mechanism which is orchestrated by the assistance assistance fund. Over 90% of the fees generated by the platform are redirected

into the assistance fund which are then systematically used to purchase hype on the open market and repurchases are built into the fabric of the hyperlquid protocol. Um since its launch in January 25, cumulative pro purchases have surpassed $2 billion. By some measures, Hyperlquid repurches have accounted for nearly half of all token buyback activity across the crypto market in 2025. They literally sparked this entire buyback meta in the digital asset industry. If you're measuring against total market cap, the hype buyback clocks in at roughly 7% annually of its tokens market cap, which is an incredible ratio. Um, this is the really really po important part that I think

people tend to miss when they're thinking about the buyback mechanism. The Hyperlquid Foundation brought forth a validator vote that would officially burn $1 billion in hype tokens held in the assistance fund. If you project that going forward, the assumption is that looking forward all hype tokens held in the assistance fund will be viewed as burned. That's huge because it means that you know all of the tokens in the assistance fund which is I think upwards of$2 billion worth of tokens almost 7% of the tokens would be burned. that is a meaningful amount of tokens. Uh and if you decrease that from the supply, obviously that is going to have an impact on the price. Talks about the hyperlquid ETFs as of late and RWA

tokenization endorsed by Hyperlid uh HIP 3. We're seeing more and more of the volume on Hyperlid be part of these HIP 3 markets. This is also the liquidity backend for things like trade XYZ ono. I mean, we're going to see a lot more of adoption for HIP 3 markets. uh Andy and I believe on this show we've talked about it. The thesis is that hit three markets are going to end up gaining more market share uh and and ultimately overtake uh the crypto native tokens and we're going to see that we're seeing that in the preo markets and then uh you know it says aggregate hip 3 open interest has soared past $3 billion. Um second hyperlquent improvement protocol hit 4 introduced in May is going to add prediction markets. uh and this has some

unique advantages over um over traditional prediction markets. So guys that is what we have here uh as part of our hyperlquid thesis. Uh Citrini again shout out Catrini does an incredible job uh very very thoughtful research ties together several disruptive innovative uh categories uh and talked about the trends that are important to watch in 2026. Uh guys, if you have the means, go give them a subscription on Substack. Uh very, very quality, thoughtful research.

Don't go anywhere. We've got Ethereum Bull, DeFi Dad, uh one of the guys that I looked up to when we started uh DeFi Slate way back in the day and the rollup uh in the studio in the tokenization tower. Guys, don't go anywhere. Keep watching. We've got an incredible show. We're going to keep things rolling and we're going to get into Defi Dad, the host of the Edge podcast right after this. Let's hit a quick standby. Guys, don't go anywhere. We're going to be bringing you exactly what you like right here, right now.

[music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> Funny power.

[music] big [music] money. [music] We get deep [music] know we get deep know we get deep we get deep [music] know we get deep we get we get deep we get deep we get [music] we get you know we get deep

[music] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Wheel [music]

of Kentucky. [music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep.

[music] We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep know [music] we get deep we get deep know we get deep [music] know we get deep we get deep know we get deep know we get [music] deep we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get deep we get [music] we get You know we get [music] [music]

We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] Going 70 7th floor.

All righty, guys. We are here with Defi Dad in the studio, guys. Robbie just texted me. I know you guys, if you guys are watching there. Uh, he just texted me to be bullish for the sake of his ETH bags. So, Robbie, if you're watching this or other ETH bulls, we got the right guy. Defi dad's in the house. Great to have you, sir. >> Thanks for having me, Andy. Great to see you. >> Welcome to New York again. I know you've been very busy doing dad things as you are a lot of little leagues. So, it was good to have you in the city. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was I think I was joking with you guys yesterday, but I was like running between three different little league games and like gymnastics and lacrosse with the kids. So, but I came into New York for at least a day.

So, it's it's been great. I went to uh the ETH conference and I've been just trying to catch some talks and obviously get the pleasure of getting to hang out with you for a bit. I'm stoked, man. >> So, yeah, >> I'm stoked. So, I was just telling you before we hopped on, Edward from the chat, what's up Rocky? Good to see you here. He says, "Would like would love for you to compare lighter and hyperl a bit more. Uh, you know, feel like there's some alpha in lighter with its regulatory setup. It has stronger buybacks in terms of its total uh buybacks per on like a market cap uh kind of weighted basis way smaller valuation but Hyperliquid's kind of hit this point of no return in terms of global macro in terms of uh mainstream awareness. Lighter has not quite got

there seemingly kind of like this one two punch right now. Yeah. How do you think about the like Hyperlid and Lighter as products and as investments in in the current space? >> Yeah. So, so the advantage for me with with lighter and keep in mind I'm I'm a positive sum bull here. I'm I'm very bullish on hyperlquid. I'm very bullish on on lighter. Uh as much as I think everyone wants to get excited about a smaller market cap, you have to remember that uh the best part about lighter is that you have an escape hatch to Ethereum. So you know we have in my opinion I think you have this you know this greater security guarantee whereas there's the argument that hyperlquid if you listen to the hyperlquid bulls that

it's decentralized enough. Um I I think again if you were to compare the two I I think like one again provides for that guarantee to get back to Ethereum L1 which is lighter which to me is huge like most important thing is that I can retrieve my assets. Um whereas with Hyperliquid what you know you're uh there's some give and take there. Um in terms of the market caps though I mean it's as simple as this. Like I know everybody wants to bet on the smaller market caps and they want to say that uh they want to look at the two and say if this one can one day be valued the same way this one is, it'll be worth that.

And so then they they look at the market caps and they do the multiple. The the one thing you want to pay attention to is uh if you use something like DeFi Lama AI, you know, you can ask it to spit out like what's the last 30 days in terms of fees on both platforms. >> Nomadic and I were just looking at this recently. We were kind of hoping that there would be >> a more like obvious difference. Yeah. That it was like, oh my gosh, like lighter is clearly undervalued. And and I I do want to just point out I I think it was like Hyperlid is just doing that much more in terms of fees. it was like 20 or 30x the day we were looking at it.

So, you know, again, like huge opportunity in something that is probably sitting at 1.5 billion, I think, as a fully diluted valuation. Um, I think there's probably some mispricing there though to like that having that guarantee to get back to >> Ethereum. I think that's an unknown thing about [clears throat] um lighter >> like I think I I I don't think people are really that aware of the security trade-off between the two. And by the way, I don't mean that as like a knock on Hyperlquid. >> No, but it's not real. You know, you've been in the space for a while, right?

Like >> Yeah. It's like it's you know like for example uh most of us probably never worried about the shared pool model with with uh you know a money market like a >> right >> many folks didn't consider like what risk was there but then when you have an incident like what happened suddenly you go oh boy now I understand what worst case scenario can happen. So again, I'm like fingers crossed. I hope Hyperlid just continues to grow and doesn't experience any sort of setback, but my concern is always like what if just what if something bad goes wrong?

>> Yeah. And I mean I mean we've seen it in DeFi, you know, we've seen these um exploits or these events and you don't like you know there's a saying you don't care or decentralization doesn't matter until it does. >> Yes. >> Right. And like that is very real. Um, does the market seem to care at this point? Like we kind of had this whole market structure shift o away from kind of this DAO governance decentralization theater almost you could say a veil of decentralization. I think Kane from synthetics has notably said that on our show a few times and you know it upsets a lot of people but the market is clearly like valuing you know these types of things on product on quality on revenues on buybacks more than like oh how many nodes do you have? Hyper is 24 nodes. You know

>> that's like that's is that a blockchain or is that like a database? You know, Canton is trading six bill. No one really knows, right? Um >> they all they all have their their pros and cons. So like I think we all we we want uh >> more rigid valuation frameworks and like that's just clearly not how the world works. you know, the the the ultimate scoreboard is price. And so any token that sees its its token go up over time is is doing pretty damn well. And you know, as much as you know, I still am uh I'm probably like 60 70% ETH on any given day and maybe like >> 20% to 25% Bitcoin and then another like 10% of a mashup. I I am finally holding

some hype, too. I mean, I like that. >> And is that just your crypto portfolio? >> Just my crypto portfolio. Yes. Yeah. >> So, what does the DeFi Dad portfolio look like? Is it like you got some real estate, some stocks, crypto? What kind of investments? >> I'm a pretty simple person. I mean, I we have a family and and uh we we own a home thankfully. And then I I am still I think Nomadic was posting about this recently just I am still very uh long crypto irresponsibly long crypto. Um I actually am very comfortable too in this setting. Like this is a to me this is your your normal four-year uh cycle to uh get beyond this this again this whole

thing playing out where we have to draw down you know not just 50% but like I think on average like 70 to 90% across different assets. Uh but I think the main the big difference is today so like maybe going to like more of like my ETH bull thesis. Um and I I remain extremely bullish on Bitcoin as well and mentioned Hyperlquid and so forth. But in terms of uh Ethereum, Ethereum continues to be the most reliable and secure network for DeFi. Uh there's other networks that clearly host their own DeFi ecosystems. I think that'll continue to play out, but Ethereum has clearly had, you know, real network effects play out in its favor.

the thing that's happening right now and we we just did an interview with Robert Leshner which I'm I'm hoping we get out in the next day or two out of editing. Uh we were talking about all they're doing with Superstate and obviously his focus is on uh tokenizing real world assets and then bringing them on chain and and I actually I think you know Robert is uh very dependent on Ethereum. I think like more than threequarters of all their liquidity is on Ethereum, but they are on other chains as well.

The asset issuers need to be confident that nothing will ever happen to the assets they are issuing on these networks and the track record is a 10-year track record for Ethereum. And so anyways, as all this is playing out, the more important story to me is that you, me, Robbie, Nomadic, all of us have lived through this era where it's always Bitcoin is number one, Ethereum has been number two, Salon has had a hell of a last few years, Hyperlquid is now, I mean, Hyperlquid is clearly top 10. I think what's changing is we don't need to see all of the liquidity in like tokenized Bitcoin and and uh just ETH

and just like soul and and hype. We're going to see real real world assets finally eclipse all of this. >> Yeah. Onchain, right? >> And I think it's hard top 10, >> right? It's it's hard for us to accept because to be fair like we're we're we're long these assets so we want them to go up but no one ever said that >> we needed to bring trillions on chain and that >> you know my my ETH doesn't need to be worth trillions to host trillions on day one right >> that said I do believe that if we can bring on you know trillions tens of trillions u clearly over time that network becomes more and more valuable.

The the underpinning of all of its security is uh ETH staking. And so, yeah, ultimately I I just don't see a world where uh I think as Tom Lee put it, can you imagine a world where you try to explain that the US dollar does not benefit from all of these uh stock exchanges that exist here, right? you know, oh, Google trades here and Nvidia trades here and and the argument being made, well, the US dollar doesn't benefit from this at all. And again, different that's a medium of exchange versus more of a >> store of value that I think ETH is. And so, I I think it's silly and and you have to get outside the crypto Twitter sphere to understand this. I I still I love our community. I love being able to

like see all that you guys are posting and sharing and and you know all of our other peers. >> But that's not really what moving >> that's not the only conversation out there. Like there's a lot of folks with enormous amounts of capital who are they have very simple thesis about this space. You know, they're like, "Hey, Bitcoin looks like it's working to me. It looks like digital gold. Oh, there's a quantum threat. Okay. I mean, like, is it like something that's gonna bring down the network tomorrow? Um, I'm worried about that, you know, like like long term, but >> again, Wall Street is not looking at it with the same sort of skepticism that our our community is. So,

>> uh, actually, I have a question from Edward. He's a big ETH bull. He said, "Defi Dad, when you say security is Ethereum's main main selling point, ETH's main selling point, normies will point to Kelta, exploit, as lot of risk in DeFi. How can ETH bulls respond to this? >> Okay. Yeah, we've been talking a lot about this. I I agree. It's it's been kind of a dark year for DeFi and and a lot of that has to do with the fact that uh there are exploits that are clearly happening because uh AI tools are being used to uncover vulnerabilities. I mean, this this whole Zcash thing to me was really really scary because they're they're an enormous network and like I get worried like what if this happens to other blockchains, any of them, right?

So what I think we're missing is that uh things tend to uh normalize over time. What what I expect is that all of the like dismal sentiment around uh what's the next exploit and of course like uh by the way like what happened with like Kelpdow is I believe it's a failure in my opinion it's a failure of layer zero architecture. there was a true hack there. But like Zcash being to me, I think we will eventually get to a place sooner than later where uh those same tools are going to ultimately shore up all of this security like we're going to ultimately be able to ensure that we don't have these sorts of exploits.

Great example is uh uh Nomadic and I are are um you know uh very close with the fluid team. We try to stay on top of, you know, everything they're working on because we are power users above all else. I I am most concerned about the security of these protocols, you know, because I'm storing uh, you know, a lot of capital in in these protocols. And so >> every time a new model comes out with Claude, they're running that model with I I believe like they're running some sort of agent and they're looking for vulnerabilities >> just like honeypotss across the entire DeFi landscape. So this sort of thing I think is going to like you know continue to play out and you know I >> I have uh heard a rumor that the Ethereum Foundation got access to Mythos

and has run that. Um I I cannot verify it like you know because I the the source that told me it >> basically it was like one of those things like I'm telling you this but like >> I can't like I can't tell you more. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know that I believe Salana also got access to this or at least they either they either had like they either were public about it or again it's something else that I've heard through the grapevine through the rumor mill. Um and I have no no doubt there's others out there. So you know again it I know it's been dark this year. I' I've seen a lot of like, oh, you know, you're like leading these folks to be slaughtered by these exploits. And I'm I'm like, >> I'll just, you know, say that

>> I am as invested as I've ever been in DeFi. Uh there's lots of landmines. I think it's important that we really uh think about what has been stress tested over the years. But then again, don't assume that that's a >> that don't assume that something cannot be exploited. You know, I think what happened with a they didn't get exploited, >> but ultimately they the markets were, you know, taken advantage of because of a failing of layer zero and and of kelp and and of a too. What am I saying? I I don't >> A's risk management >> to their risk management. So, you know, anyways, >> I had a um one of our uh true true listeners, NCOCSM says, "Can we hit on

the rumor of Zeer talking about launching a new A token?" I don't know if you saw that tweet. Um >> like like a like a new protocol or just like a whole new token for >> there was a tweet that he tweeted that was like um you know, somebody was like a like could be a good value buy here or something and then he was like yeah but in a in a different token. So, I I truthfully don't know anything about this, but I know that uh I we all know Mark was instrumental. Oh, yeah. To A's success, and I I like >> I I know he's been very public about like the fact that he's like, "Okay, well, like clearly I've made some mistakes here." Like I I think he has

stated some like public regrets about like getting Kelp on board cuz in retrospect, duh. Uh but >> I think it's a new protocol by the way new protocol. >> So I yes I expect him to eventually launch a new protocol. Zero doubt the like he's too valuable of a builder and actually the this is another reason I just I love Ethereum is that it is the most radical capitalist experiment. He will go out he will I I I would imagine that Mark has the sort of backing he doesn't need to raise as much money as as other founders. He's gonna go out with his own killer team then and I hope they launch a fierce competitor to A. I think it makes the whole ecosystem

richer and I think honestly I think a will probably >> like maybe there's some uh you know liquidity that leaves them and goes over to some new protocol if this all plays out. But uh >> yeah, I I'm not by the way I can I will hand on the Bible. I don't know if they're launching it for sure. I don't uh also know anything about it, but I'm I'm a big fan of like all the work Mark's done over the years. So, appreciate you, Mark. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, he's been instrumental. He was like one of our first podcast guests. He was like our fourth ever podcast guest. >> Yeah. He's he's >> you know, he is again one of the best representations of someone who I I he always believed in what he was building.

Yeah. And like that to this day, like that's that's why, you know, not only is my my largest investment in ETH, but like I remain loyal to Ethereum because I think it's still >> not only a a pioneer in the space, but it is one of the best cults to be in. Bitcoin's a great cult. Ethereum's a great cult. Hyperlid's a great new cult. >> Say whatever. I I'm a who's willing to say I I have a lot of respect for uh um what has been built over the long term through Salana. I disagree at times with >> you know certain design choices they've made but I uh again I think the disagreements make our whole space

richer and it's more enjoyable. It's you get to learn from each other. So >> what's your take on um the upcoming or the news of Tom Lee and Bitmine launching a preferred equidend product a preferred shares offering 9 and a half% I believe is the rate. >> Obviously Ethereum unlike Bitcoin has that native staking ability to get 2% 3% depends kind of on the year on the time or on the issuance. Um, you know, we're trying to create an environment where Tom Lee and Joseph Shalom and Joe Luben can kind of step in into like this like institutional sales arm, if you will, almost. Um, >> let's start let's start with the preferred equity launch. Um, do you think that's, you know, meaningful given

what we've seen with Stretch right now and Sailor? How do you differ the two? How do you think this plays out? >> Yeah. So, okay, I if you dumb down Stretch. Yeah, Stretch is uh Sailor's way of ultimately raising investor capital to buy more Bitcoin. And he's saying, "I'm going to pay you guys 11.5%. By the way, it's not guaranteed. I'm going to pay you that, but he doesn't have to." Right? >> And so, uh, ultimately investors will they will sell their stretch at a discount if they lose confidence in in him paying the dividend. the game that he's been playing is that there is no native yield to Bitcoin. So, he has to ultimately buy low, sell high. Uh, and

obviously like his track record is, you know he's >> you know, the ultimate diamondhanded Bitcoin bull. So, he doesn't sell, you know, he sold sold like 32 Bitcoin or something. Everybody lost their minds over it. So the main difference between stretch then and uh what Tom Lee and Bitmine Bitmine will offer is uh >> he doesn't have to sell ET. He can fund the whole dividend just off of staking yield. And so this is this is again like you don't need I don't need uh stretch and micro strategy ultimately to lose for Tom Lee and Bitmine to to do well and be right here. Like I think it's it's brilliant and and like Tom Lee is, you know, he's doing what he's supposed

to do right now. He's accumulating as much as he can. Yeah. Yeah. It's what you want to see. So So that's Anyways, main difference for me is um >> it's still it's it's a it's a difficult balancing act and and I don't take for granted that things can go, you know, wrong in in either scenario here. But >> Tom Lee has that native yield. So they're just they're printing money that they can use to pay it out >> and they're staking a ton of that Ether that they have like already like billions of dollars worth. I don't know the exact numbers but it's a significant portion of their holdings are staking. Yes.

>> And so as long as the preferred product doesn't you know get to a substantially large amount. Yeah. You can just pay that yield. Yeah. Just with the estaking rewards. >> Yeah. remember when when someone starts to talk about like it's a preferred equity offering with variable like they go through all these buzzwords and like most people glaze over. I'm like >> these guys are literally just >> they're borrowing money and they're saying I will pay you 11.5% with Stretch. I will pay you is it nine and a half with this new offering through Bitine. All they're trying to do is buy low and and and accumulate that so that ultimately their balance sheet should grow over time and then they should

ultimately see their their actual like market cap become like a multiple of that. We've seen uh Micro Strategy trade at you know pretty unbelievable premium. >> Yeah. Almost like two times. >> It's just the opposite right now. Again, this is a bare market, so everyone's like, "Oh, it turns out I I've heard so many people say this recently. Sailor sunk the market." >> Everyone's going to blame him. >> You got to be kidding me. We're going through the same thing we always go through. We look for someone to blame. It's like everything everything uh doesn't matter, but it also does matter.

Of course, he has an impact on the market, but like I'm convinced if if there was no narrative around Sailor, we would be finding something else to kind of like connect the dots back to. And um I agree. >> Yeah. So, I I actually really liked uh is it Yan Lieberman, if I'm saying his name correctly, from Deli? He had like a a really nice sort of breakdown about like, hey, if it turns out uh Sailor sold more Bitcoin, that extends their runway. Because remember, he needs this like big pile of cash to pay the dividend for borrowing all of that money. And if he sold a bunch and the market was tanking, it's actually he his argument was it's a good thing because

people are going to realize he now has 12 to 24 months of runway. But if if he didn't if he didn't sell anything and they still have this like sixmonth runway at current Bitcoin prices, again, this is all based on like the current price of Bitcoin, then just what if what if things get uglier and then what if investors start to lose confidence and stretch? Um, you know, so like I think the key takeaway on all of this is Bitcoin will be fine with or without Michael Sailor, but it has clearly benefited from his buying Bitcoin over the years. Immense amounts of uh buying pressure from from him. Just like Tom Lee, if someone said,

>> "Would would Ethereum have uh >> recovered last year and had like the sort of end of bull cycle it did?" I don't know. I'd like to think it it probably was due for, you know, a bounce. It was pretty bad in April 2025, but did he have an impact? Of course he did. Is he having an impact now? Absolutely. So, yeah. >> Um, so one of the things that Rob and I asked Joseph Shalom is about this kind of like ETH burn thesis. Is this thing still a part of the equation here? Um, you know, we're we're trying to, you know, get a lot of transaction activity on Ethereum, burn ETH, this kind of ultrasound money concept. Um, and Edward here is asking a similar question that I think is like very apparent in all of the L1 founder conversations that we've

been having. Yeah. The business model is tr transaction fees on the blockchain generate fees no matter if it's like stellar lumens and it's like a tenth of a penny or ethereum and it's like you know 50 cents or 10 cents whatever it is and those go to the token or buyback or a burn or something right. It's like a very basic model. Yeah. But at the same time, you have like interesting conflicting forces where one of them is a lot of these chains including Ethereum, including Salana in including Near, including Stellar. They're all trying to decrease their transaction costs because block is kind of a commodity. Everyone realizes this. They want a better experience, better, you know, higher TPS, more scale, right?

>> And also in in Ethereum's case, they're think about lowering the issuance. Near cut their issuance down by 50%. Salana's trying to do it as well. everyone's trying to cut their issuance down and so um you kind of have these weird forces where the business model of these chains is like we're going to scale the transaction fees and then we're going to burn the token or buy back the token and of course economies of scale here is how these things work out but the question here is and I think this is like is pretty apparent do you have any thoughts on decreasing ETH staking rewards so ETH can return to ultrasound money total ETH staking is approaching about 40% largely lg due to bit miner so the question here is like yeah >> you know Tom Lee's being an advocate for we want to decrease the uh issuance. We

want to, you know, or or perhaps I'm not right on this. You know, there's been a lot of talk about it. Uh what do you think about this? How do like is decreasing the ETH issuance and staking? >> I think I have a good simple answer on this. Uh so there's two camps that I know of. Uh one of the camps is there's a camp that I've heard say uh if we decrease the issuance we we are ultimately going to uh you know lower that inflation of ETH and again maybe we get back to this ultrasound money narrative. Um I personally don't think it's necessary but I understand some of this is coming supposedly some of this is coming from uh Wall Street. there's there's like

some sort of influence there. And again, I I it could be just [ __ ] and rumors, but okay, let's let's assume that that's true. So, there's a camp that says, "Hey, can we just lower the inflation even more?" >> There's another camp. This is probably the camp I'm in. I I'm like, uh, until more arguments are presented to me that like convince me otherwise. I believe that the ETH staking yield is like the, you know, the native tea bill rate of of Ethereum, right? And when you think about like what makes the world go round, our whole economy really like ultimately is so reliant on these T bill rates like and so if someone said, uh, hey, we're going to just cut it in half

and this is going to make the American dollar that much stronger. You're like, "Listen, I can like rationalize and try to understand what you're saying there, but like you're just you're just like glossing over this like like we'll just make the change." So, the thing I'm most sensitive about with this is that there there's been a lot of criticism over the years, and this might just be a crypto Twitter criticism. maybe this doesn't exist outside of our little bubble, but there was a criticism that hey uh we need Ethereum to basically like stop making changes. The truth was was Ethereum was scaling the L1 and you know working to obviously enable a world where L2s can can work even better on

top of it. And so, yeah, we we've got this we've got this all playing out. And I think that the best thing that ever happened was Ethereum hitting its 10-year anniversary. I think it was like a wakeup call. Holy [ __ ] this thing's never gone down over 10 years. It's resilient. >> By the way, what does that remind you of? All the arguments we make about Bitcoin being unchanging and predictable and just being simple to understand that this thing continuing to produce blocks is actually its greatest value. Ethereum being a much more like complex and nuanced machine that all the all of DeFi is built on top of. People sometimes lose sight of that and forget that hey the fact that it just keeps producing

blocks and it has all this client uh diversity and the fact that everyone builds on it with the understanding that they will continue to be able to predictably build on it like this is its real value. So my fear going back to the uh changing the the staking issuance is I I just I don't want to give fodder to our most fierce critics. But believe me, if someone can make the argument, if the community can come to an agreement that this is ultimately going to benefit Ethereum's ability to continue to host the most vibrant DeFi ecosystem, continue to be the most secure L1 >> and continue to ultimately have that priced into the token over the long

term. If that if that will all play out, then sure, I I could get on board with it. But I'm I'm still I'm pretty I'm I'm in a in the camp of like can we just please talk more about this and debate more have a like I just I hope that I I hope that you know someone like a Tom Lee >> he could be a great person to translate this and like let us know like okay well like what do the biggest capital allocators in the world who have exposure to ETH what do they think about this because we need to know now just those of us who are like the long-term weirdos who are in the So yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean um Yeah. It's interesting. I mean people want capital gains and they want the income, right? It's the same thing with with with the >> I would hate to use that. I'm sorry. I would hate to lose that uh uh that yield. I think that 2% roughly a little over 2%. I think that it underpins the whole economy. And I think like >> yeah when I think about my own DeFi portfolio I mean just reminder I was not in the ICO. Yeah. >> I started looking at ETH when it was around 300 bucks but >> I had no money to buy much more than a few ETH and then I lived through that bare market trying to find ways to like scrape together whatever money I could

to buy. But like I I was by the time I had uh really like I would say like >> some savings. I went from like $50,000 of credit card debt at one point to being able to like we we bought our home. We we saved money and we bought a home. And that's when I was like, "Okay, now I can really start to like focus on allocating more here and finding ways to store wealth over time and that." So I get it. I know. Like I I I understand when someone says, "I feel like I was late to ETH." I'm like, >> "Join the club. I was too, you know, like it's it's fine." Like it's like I still believe like the uh the market cap

of Ethereum right now should be in the trillions based on just all the economic activity that it hosts and the fact that if you destroy the Ethereum network tomorrow you take down what something like conservatively 60% of all DeFi activity probably more though because of all of the dependencies on L1 you know everyone ultimately L1 almost Ethereum L1 almost acts as a hub between all these chains whether Salana likes it or not. folks love to go in between these chains and uh somebody did a map of all of that and like it's it's crazy to see like the volume that's flowing back to you know the L1 even if you're a hyperlquid bull >> you're just hugely reliant on

>> Ethereum or Ethereum it all is um just kind of closing out here DeFi Dad great to great to have you just >> give us your give us your ETH ETH bull predictions here what's your bull bair case for not even this year it's too short term like give us I think we're probably gonna, you know, we're in this this closing period of the bare market here. >> I think it's it's pretty obvious. Uh if you've been through, you know, what two of these now, you kind of see these, you're like, "Okay, like this is we're getting to the end here." >> So, you know, not this year, but next year, what what do you think is possible for ETH?

>> Okay. So, as long as you are avoiding leverage and you're spot buying like what I do over time and as long as you have like a a multi-year time horizon, I mean there's no doubt uh this bare market could be over very soon. I'm not like I I don't care about make, you know, making that public call and saying, "Hey, we just bottomed." But guys, that was the lowest RSI in the in history. I think it was the daily RSI for ETH. It could be. Uh, and I'm like, "Wow, that is remarkable." If you go back and you look at the daily RSI and you bought, every time it went to basically like a local low over the course of a few years, holy cow, you'd be doing really well. So, for me, it's a

great time to be buying ETH. I think that uh the best thing that I'm seeing right now is I feel like there's a return to quality. It seems like uh whatever went on with the memecoin mania like it really like it really like washed out a lot of folks. And I think maybe everyone's finally learning their lesson. I think also just really important to you know whether it's me or Arthur Hayes telling you that the price is going to go 20x for near and then he's selling it the next day. um you you have to you know own your own decisions and that's part of the reason like I've missed so many great opportunities like

I've like >> Nomadic has hilarious stories to tell about me saying if hype just goes to that price I'm going to really ape it this time you know it went down to it was down at $10 in April 2025 or like May and I was already like I invested in in a way in the hyperlquid ecosystem. Uh and I just I just kept thinking, okay, what else do I need this capital for? What if 2025 is the start of the bare market? And so for me, it wasn't the right time.

>> Does that mean that I need to top blast it right now? No. And so I think again like make sure I I I I am from the school of thought that I always feel like tomorrow's another day. I don't have to buy today. I'm happy to buy something after it proves that it's back in an >> uptrend. >> This um so I will say I I think that again ETH >> ETH has been uh playing a game of the fundamentals were catching up with the crazy parabolic moves it made. I mean it is wild that uh Ether went up to almost $5,000 in 2021. I don't believe the price deserved to be there in retrospect, but I'm not going to like

chant for the price to have gone down then. >> I think it's been so healthy for the fundamentals to catch up. And this for me, this has been the most excited I've been in years to be able to actually buy ETH again. Um, and that goes by, by the way, that goes for uh, you know, another like OG, which is Bitcoin. You I'm as excited as ever to be able to buy it, but for totally different reasons. And so the founders that we are meeting with uh whether it's through like an interview like this or whether it's like to invest you know and it could be like my own like it's the audience that maybe I attract for the founders that we attract but

>> you know Ethereum is is the one thing that's predictable for them in an unpredictable world of building startups. Everything else is a moving part that could absolutely blow up at a moment's notice. But when they build on Ethereum, that at least is the thing that they know that isn't going to, you know, screw them in the end. So anyways, uh I but I I think uh my my next like major price target like just going up is >> everybody wants to see that $10,000 mark. I think once we hit there, the uh uh we're going to see a lot of folks talking about the price action of Bitcoin and what it did because you can't unsee what it did, right? So, they're going to start to say, "Well,

where can it go next?" And um you know, I love Tom Lee's bull thesis. We did >> Yeah. He's he Yeah. At at the end of the day, I think >> there's uh what is there? There's like 800 trillion in assets. If we capture a small fraction of that, I think we're talking, you know, what tens of trillions at >> ETH would be 1.2 trillion market cap. >> There you go. Yeah. So, so anyways, um I would love to see uh ETH violently repric though here. I think that uh again that RSI was just the most bullish like thing to see. Depressing depressing to see it, but uh you know, harvest your tax losses if you can. Like that's one

of the silver linings. and then just sit tight and yeah it's we we've got if there was ever a fundamental failing of the of the network itself I would have already like abandoned this thesis but >> the fact it continues to produce blocks like it does it it's it's the most valuable thing it can do and just a reminder we don't need for everyone that's like building other ecosystems you don't need Ethereum to ultimately lose in order for you to win. You know, like I I think there's a uh there's been a mistake in the past few years where new L1s were so fixated on eating into its market share when I'm like there's an enormous like world for

us to grow into. We're still like I think we're 2 and a half trillion or something >> today. >> We we can get to be so much bigger. I mean I I think it's I think it is again it's going to look silly looking back and realizing holy cow like I was in this space and it was a few trillion. >> Yeah. Exactly. And now it's 100red trillion. What What was I thinking? So yeah, >> defa Thank you for joining us for the ETH bull. I think Robbie needed it. We all needed it. I mean uh that that that that sell off that RSI was insane. Just the pullback, but but the fundamentals keep growing. Um we're excited about it.

I mean, we're called the roll up. The show's name is kind of gone from like >> ET. You guys have been at the forefront of that. I appreciate it. You're very technical. So >> yeah, dude. Thanks for having me. It was fun. Guys, we will be right back with our next guest, Sam Kasmanian from Fracks. [cheering] Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back in just a second. Give him a >> That's so fun. I was see [music] [music] [music] >> [music]

[music] >> money power. [music] Big [music] money. [music] We get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. [music] Know we get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. [music] We get We get deep. We get deep. We get [music]

we get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. N.

[music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

>> We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get [music] deep. We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep [music] know we get deep we get deep know we get deep know we get [music] deep we get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep [music] we get we get deep we get deep we get [music] we get You know we get [music]

[music] we get deep. We get [music] deep, you know. We get deep. We get deep. [music] We get deep, you know. We get deep. We get deep. We get deep know. We get deep. [music] [music] [music] [music] >> [music]

[music] [music] [music] >> We get deeper. We get deep, you know. [music] We get deep. We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep. You know, we [music] get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. You know, we get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep.

You know, [music] we get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. [music] We get we get deep. We get deep. We get we get deep, [music] you know. We get deep. [music] [music] Welcome back to another episode of Stabled Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital dollars, stable coins, and the future of decentralized finance. Show is made possible by FRA and FRA is powering the financial engine of the internet,

powering FRXUSD and genius compliant stable [music] coins. This is the stablecoin super cycle made possible by FRA. Now enjoy stabled up, our weekly stable coin show. All righty, guys. Welcome back to the tokenization tower. You're watching the roll. This is episode number 36 of Stable Up, our weekly premier stablecoin show. None other than Sam in the tower. Good to have you, Sam. >> How's New York treating you? >> Excellent, man. This is so cool. This is like uh I feel like New York and SF are like the two pillars of tech, AI and crypto and finance. So, this is awesome.

>> Yeah, man. It's um all the ads in the subway are are AI ads now. So, the the the SF uh culture is infiltrated here for sure. >> Yeah, I saw a bunch of crypto, though. I saw some Ripple and other stuff. >> Yeah. >> Well, one of the notable things, Sam, uh today and this week is is is action on the Genius Act. Uh kind of getting that into law. You know, we were just talking about prior to this going live just about there's a couple more things. Could you just uh catch us up on on what's happening there with the Genius Act? Uh what is left to get this thing into into law?

>> Yeah, I I mean I I think legally speaking, it's it's technically law. It's just that the OC and the federal agencies that have been tasked with actually giving guidance and and the process to apply for like a genius license or I guess technically a payment stable coin issuance uh you know uh license uh need to go through with all of the comments rulem uh final releases of the actual procedures and everything. I think for short uh TLDDR, I think by Q1 uh 2027, I think it should be open for business, which obviously we're hoping with FRA uh we'll have FRAUSD be uh licensed Genius Stablecoin. Now, one thing that I will say is that since it's

uh on default acceptant, right, the way that it's going to work is that you apply and if unless there's a very specific response of no for a specific reason, uh I believe it's 120 days of auto uh default in compliance. >> Okay. Um, and so I think that's what's going to be really great for innovation because unless you're doing something extraordinarily wrong, >> uh, and you get a no. Uh, it's a default yes. Whereas the FMA and Fed master account and all that stuff, right? It's a default is no. So then the Fed used to always be able to just leave it for years, right? And and just, you know, say, well, we don't know how risky this new bank or whatever is. And that's just a political way of saying f you, right?

Right. So, so this is the exact opposite of that, which is bullish. >> Yeah, that's great. Well, great. Great. Just wanted a quick update there really today. I wanted to just kind of have a a frack specific conversation about the business of fracks and kind of a as we're in this very institutional era of this industry. Uh I coined this term revenue meta a year and a half ago. It's a very silly term. Got a lot of flack for it. We're very firmly in this era of I'm an investor. I'm looking at fracks. I want to understand business model, revenues, token flows, emissions, net value flows, how these things are coming together, what the stable coin business is doing, how it makes sense from like why FRA is an investable company, investable asset uh with with a token

that is obviously separate from a stable coin. So fable coins are obviously one of the pillars of this era, right? Per tokenization, stable coins I think are like the big three. So you guys are in a really uh strong spot here. just kind of let's just get a high level of the FRA business model. How how how does FRAX uh generate uh fees, generate cash flows? What is the business model of FRA as it is now? And then looking forward, let's start here high level and kind of just get into the weeds about what uh the investability of of FRA is. >> Yeah, for sure. So, obviously the flagship product is F FRXUSD. It's a genius compliant stable coin, right? And we like to say it's a FRA is a stablecoin operating system means it's a

verticalized stable coin stack right that that we have. And one of the most interesting things actually brought up the Genius Act and also the Clarity Act is is coming out and maybe it'll pass and I maybe it won't I think there's a high chance it will. Um what we actually do with FRAUSD is we get it integrated in the most uh DeFi important hubs. Right. So A's new uh V4 actually the FRAUSD is currently like the largest stable coin there. um we're working directly with them. There's a lot of curve pools and so what we do is we actually stream the risk-free rate to these important DeFi uh hubs and we make it so that this is the default digital dollar that's compliant that is fully redeemable that can be used as as payments and is one to one right at all

times. The entire supply can be redeemed in T+1 right for cash if you want to or one to one in other uh major stable coins. And the idea here is like all of these places like a if you lend Frax USD you'll get streamed the risk-free yield as a baseline y >> instead of other stable coins. And it's not like a campaign that's like done in a month or something. It's actually a mechanism. And so we've built this out. Um and that's actually one thing that's very powerful for for fracks when uh if the current wording of the clarity act actually passes where only activity based uh streaming of yield or rewards that are not interest rate for idle holdings but interest rate or rewards for activity right uh is is allowed clearly um this model is actually going

to become the standardized model where you participate in DeFi you participate in a uh payment system like a a FRA card, an EtherFI card or like a uh a Visa payments card, right? These programmable cards. Um or you participate in these DeFi hubs, right? You create a curve pool where you're pegging to FRA USD instead of other stable coins, right? And when you LP it, you get streamed the underlying for the amount of FRAUSD you hold in that pool, for example. And this is actually a really important composability tool because if you think about how to build a fiat coin in in 2026, if you were going to build it from the ground up, it would work something like this, right?

It would be aligned in all major places in in DeFi, in hubs and spokes of where economic activity is happening. And then you would monetize it as it gets more monetary premium, which very few stable coins have been able to do outside of Tether and Circle obviously. Um, then those can be monetized, right? like we we don't share 100% of the the actual yield on 100% of the supply. Um when people hold it, they use it as payments. Uh we actually can capture that monetary premium. And then also we have other products around it, right? We have the Sfra USD savings vault. You stake it in there and then those strategies you can kind of think of it like an official vault, right? Those go higher than obviously the baseline T bill yield.

It's always guaranteed as as the T bill yields for for staking in there but then we actually deploy it into important places like a like carry trade like uh RWA strategies and so those always uh yield pretty much industry benchmarks right and so you have this full stack financial ecosystem there's many places to capture value that uh is not commoditized right one of the things that u we kind of talk about in internally both at FRA and I think a lot of places in in crypto and tech are talking about is when AI commoditizes the actual software, right? What is actually durable in terms of revenue?

Like I think your revenue meta is right on the money, right? No, no pun intended, but that there's a caveat to that which is >> the revenue has to be durable, right? And so like one example is like that that is the market potentially saying is not durable is if you look at Salesforce equity the over the past year, they've actually beaten forecasts, right, on on revenue, but the price has gone down. Why? Why has the price gone down is is that the market is essentially saying >> we don't know if SAS the way that SAS worked before that Salesforce is dominant in right will exist in 5 years or 10 years. So we don't know even though today your revenue is amazing, it's durable and all this stuff, we don't know if it'll be durable in 5

years. And so one thing that I think FRA is very very good at is this monetary premium and this verticalized ecosystem that is growing >> very similar to uh things like tether um things that are sticky that have have a mo you can't vibe code liquidity or integrations right and so that's why I think it's very valuable. Okay. So, think thinking on that line of durability as it pertains to FRA's business lines, what is the what does the expansion look like for FRA then markets are forward looking? You talk about durability of revenue um you know into this year in into next year. H how do you think about FRA's financial state as it as it pertains to expanding the revenue um thinking about things like uh

token value acrruel etc. talk to us about kind of like this the the bigger picture. Okay, we have these business lines, we have these products. How do we how do we um how do you kind of round this out into uh making FRA the asset something that uh people are super super bullish on buying etc because they see the business lines, they see the the growth. Just talk to us a bit about like that forecast and what's how you're thinking about Fracks the asset as well. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, and that's a good question actually because I think there's going to be a few tokens that are uh heavily investable. Obviously, Hyperliquid being one. Um, I I'm still bullish Zcash, but I I think you guys

probably have talked enough about the the Zcash situation. >> You had a fun couple days there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, and and I think there will be a few really important DeFi tokens that that are in this sticky moat that's durable light like FRA. I think a is is another token. Uh CRV, CVX, right? The these have have staying power. They're not going anywhere, right? Um I think one one thing we've institutionalized and are going to formalize is that as as we were saying together too, starting Q3, we're going to have a uh token holder uh investor week, right? We're going to actually have financials that are pushed out. Um, there's going to be, you know, analysts, people that can actually see and they can see exactly the breakdown, what the

growth has been, what product lines the the team and and the entire organization is working on. Um, what things are coming rather than only being able to hear about them in like, you know, these these podcast episodes or these appearances. >> Um, there's going to be a formalization of that. And I think um you know it's it's interesting because it's either tokens becoming more like equity >> or the other way to think about it is equity has has become more like crypto because of how volatile stocks and all these other things are. So they've kind of met in the middle rather than one has gone to the other direction. Um so I think you'll see FRA as more like a an asset that has fundamentals quarterly you know uh investor updates um

formalized with the team in sync with governance and all those things and we're actually compiling all of those with data rooms and everything in uh in the organization and then we're going to publish it in a formal way um in in the next uh couple months in in Q3. Um and I think the other thing is a lot of these tokens will have to start doing that. Um Hyperlquid for example obviously has tons of revenue. It's business is really easy to understand but as it diversifies a little bit more in in different like fee structures or even has different kinds of you know um flagship products right they'll have to also formalize this kind of reporting too right and I

think everything is going towards that direction. Uh we we also have some payment platforms and deals that that we've signed that are actually really really big and we we'll announce that during Q3, but those for example, you can't see that onchain. You can't see the actual chain revenues basically. >> Exactly. And then go to burning the FRA token. Um some goes to reinvesting in the business, right? And so those schedules, the the proposed burns and all these things, we're going to make it very clear what what those are. Um where the actual cash lies, obviously we're going to hold it in for USUSD, etc. >> Yeah. Uh I got a question here from someone watching. Uh what is the advantage of F FRXUSD stable coin versus Sky or Athena? Um just generally how do you think about this growing kind of uh

market of stable coins in that you know separate from Tether and Circle Sky Athena Fracks kind of like this trifecta of the three outside of those two. Uh what what is the how do you think about the the landscape there? >> Yeah. Well, well, I think there's there's a big difference between FRAUSD and USDE or USDS, right? The closer thing is the savings vault that we're talking about, S FRXUSD, which is yield bearing and has risk on on the balance sheet will deploy the underlying. Um, I'm actually a pretty big proponent of uh there's just two types of stable coins essentially. There are stable coins that are essentially digital dollars that are redeemable that will be widely accepted. Um there's going to be

you know a few of them as money obviously tether circle hopefully fraudd um you know there's others like Agora um PYUSD and and um USDG and and things like that um those are different those are very different um even though FRAUSD is built with DeFi first principles economically risk-free uh in terms of it's just T bill's genius compliant assets USDE is not like that right USDS is not like that >> uh for taking the actual balance sheet risk, right? Whatever it is, right? They're they're all blue chip, very competent teams, but you >> should at least want the yield underlying, right? And so, there's a very big difference. And in fact, we know this from those off-chain payment deals that I was talking about. One of

the things is a lot of these uh public traded companies want to actually hold stable coins on their treasury for payouts, not just accepting payins. Um, and obviously the first thing they want to make sure is is the stable coin they hold on their treasury, on their balance sheet for payouts, is it genius compliant? Is it is it essentially risk- free minus like smart contracts or something, right? Is it economically risk- free? I don't think that uh well, not think I know for a fact from from talking to them and and their management that they just want to hold digital dollars. Yeah. Right. The the savings products are totally different. they might allocate some to, you know, yield bearing stable coins or or savings vault

or Athena or Sky. Uh, very different. And in fact, I think the teams that uh operate in the yieldbearing area, >> very different GTM than the teams that actually have the underlying like M1 money essentially. >> Yeah. Yeah. That that actually brings me exactly where I wanted you to go, which is how do you think about Okay, so stable coins are at couple hundred billion right now. 300ish, a little over that, 320 maybe. um you know we're going a couple trillion but there's different GCMs right there's different types of like that growth will be in different areas how does FRA capture a significant part of that growth the next three to three three years like you're right in the sweet spot here right like you've got the the tides of the game that you're playing if you will are on your

side how do you maximize the the growth of X FRXUSD specifically with your GTM what does that look like you know give us a bit of an insight into behind the scenes how you're thinking about and what you're doing to scale the outstanding supply of FRX USD and really just permeate it to help your, you know, just the broad FX business pie grow. >> Yeah, for sure. I I think the way that we we think about it is there's a new generation of assets coming on chain and a new generation of uh protocols either new versions like a v4 which were currently the the the biggest stable coin on we have over 20 uh curve pools that are pegging to frack us with their new uh any project that's like a new um yield bearing stable coin or uh

synthetic dollar or rwa things like royo um and and things like uh metal USD and MSUSD and there there's a lot there's a there's a big list and our idea here is that these assets are going to be the big assets of tomorrow RWAS uh equities even right stocks we want to make sure that we're at the forefront of that and first mover in terms of liquidity in terms of uh rates in terms of uh pairs and partnerships we're not going to do the things that people did yesterday right we're not going to go to a centralized exchange and be like oh please add like a BTC the F FRXUSD pair.

Uh Tether's doing a great job with that. They they've they've done that. They they've they're crushing it, right? They're fantastic and they've they've actually captured that market, especially when it needed to be done, right? Um and so we want to work with anyone um that wants to create liquidity, right? That wants to actually make new pairs, that wants to launch lending pools, that wants to have a more efficient uh digital dollar that's issued in the US. Um and so in two years, three years, like you said, if you close your eyes and and you think, okay, what does success look like for FRA and and FRAUSD and thus the token, uh it would be hundreds over 100 or something of curve pools or AMMs like we work with aerrrome as well and we

starting to work with unis swap and unis swap x with with intent liquidity and all these places. >> Um we're just talking to the 1 in team earlier today as well. All of these places have deep fraud liquidity for assets that are new. >> So, so for example, for yield bearing stable coins, RWAS that are under 18 months old, their predominant liquidity would be against FRA USD. That doesn't mean they can't have other liquidity, right? But the way that >> Weath, WBTC, all of these things, their predominant liquidity is against USDC, right? Uh those assets totally fine. USDC, all great, right? The new ones should be FRXUSD, >> right? And then same thing with payments, right? These these payment platforms and and companies that want payins and payouts, the ones already

using them uh and and currently are in in crypto use USDC. That's totally fine. You know, that's all good. But the new ones that we're talking to, they are starting from scratch, right? We can give them a better, more efficient, fully integrated product, fully integrated platform. So in like 3 years, if you look around, it should be billions in FRAUSD with the same definition of sticky liquidity. Yep. >> Lending uh right like a v4 in 2 years hopefully is is like twice as big or three times as big as a v3 right hope has 90 billion 100 billion uh supply hopefully half of the stable coins in there are frau right now literally half is frau but it's tiny because it just launched right so you could kind of see

where we're going with all of these things and so as we also roll out our other uh defi products things like that um we want to make sure that going forward from here we are seeing all of those dominant KPIs which we we are currently >> and so one of the things that I think uh people would like to understand a bit more about is you know in in in for example in in the sky model the the as the outstanding supply of something like a USDS grows um they generate more revenue and then they they can uh do more buybacks they have uh this yield product right they can create basically the business is like grow the stable coin supply with FRXUSD growing How does that how does that uh lead to a stronger

business and healthier business for Fracks? What does that exact correlation look like? >> Yeah. So, for example, if there's uh billions and billions in supply, um let's say just for simplicity, half of it uh the risk-free rate is being streamed in these DeFi hubs, right? Y >> the other half obviously is is is gravy, right? The revenue goes into the organization um pays the cost, licenses, etc., sellers and then the rest goes to burning FRA tokens. >> Yeah. >> Um and then the other things like the savings vault, right? If it's everywhere, right, and and being used, people will probably save using the FRA savings vault. Same idea as as Sky.

There's a spread, right? Like if it it pays out 6% in the SFRA USD savings vault, but the actual earnings is like 6.57, right? There's that spread that goes entirely into the actual DAO, right? And that gets to FRA tokens and it gets burned. There's also other protocols and products that we're uh revamping like FRA lend um with with curation features and and we're talking with uh a lot of um other partners in in this area and so that speaks for itself. lending uh FRAUSD earning the floor but then also creating this debt and and creating high TVL right then being able to capture that through FRA lend >> etc goes to the Dow goes to burning fra tokens this multimodel where a lot of economic activity is captured uh

throughout the financial stack right it's it's not just a going back to that commodity software uh durability uh example >> we don't just sell software right so like we don't just like sell you know accounting software or like crypto software where if you just automate this part out or use something else we're you know frais right we are part of the entire monetary stack where one part of our product growing makes the other part better makes the other part more useful um and so that I think is the ultimate staying power right so like we already see uh revenue coming in that regardless of the current token price across everything both RAX tokens but all these other tokens at all-time lows right uh

we don't we're not dependent on the token price, right? This is a real uh economic business and so that that's really valuable. >> Yeah. And just curious on on there's this concept of like pre-commitments to the uh to the token holders or to the like there's a programmatic function here. Is that the case with uh the uh SF FRXUSD vault revenue that spread the stable coin uh spread revenue? Is that is there a you you know you mentioned uh salaries, licensing fees, expenses and then the rest goes you know to to this kind of like fax burn. Is this like a programmatic um happening that is on a monthly basis, bi-weekly, daily,

quarterly? How how are you thinking about like the like the rigid or f like flexible structure of of the financial uh aspect of bringing revenue back into the protocol? >> Yeah, right now it's not programmatically like onchain with like sfra USD revenue or or other kinds of revenue like like FRA lend and things like that. It's just accumulated. Uh there's two things I actually think either quarterly with the reports right and and actually saying the exact uh target of of burns um or um during those quarterly reports saying um at certain prices we will buy to put uh essentially a more active less kind of I guess

gameable uh like kind of uh floor to them. I I forget who it was. Was it Ether Fi or was it was someone that were was like um we will buy it at at these prices. >> Um I need to check it. I need to ask DCF Goddard who it was. But that that I think is a really great idea. >> Um >> more than just kind of like just >> Yeah. You know, back in the day it was called Merlin candles with MIM for anyone that like they had a single block every day that they would use the like MIM profit and it would just the token would shoot up and then it would shoot back down. And I I think it it makes a really good spectacle, but I'm not sure if it's like the best use of uh revenue.

>> Yeah. And on that note, like when you think about uh acrewing revenue and and then revenue that FRA generates into the protocol, into the business, there's kind of like this like dichotomy of opinions of people saying that people should invest revenue back into the team, the growth, R&D, scaling, etc. And you've got people over here like, "No, just buy back the tokens, you know, pump my bags." There's kind of like a a divergent view here. H how do you personally think about this at the current state where FRA is at? Do you believe that um what your current like the current structure is the ideal and and adequate structure?

Um how do you think about that going forward as you guys grow as as well? >> I think it's a really uh unique question per each organization, right? Um I think we're almost there. maybe like one or two quarters more of like reinvesting into the the business entirely um until parts or large amount of the revenue can be used for buyback and burns. But there's also the other the other aspect of it. One is um right now I think a lot of like tokens are and obviously not financial advice but are are at like all-time lows or something where like I I saw a tweet that was like the A token is like at the ICO price that it was there's sales everywhere. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Same with like like almost every DeFi token, right? And so it's like that's kind of funny if it's at the ICO price when it was like zero TVL, but now the TVL is like 15 billion or something and it's clearly like the dominant lending. Same thing goes with like FRA. Like everyone knows what we're doing and and and the company is sustainable and and sufficient, right? But doesn't really matter. I think right now actually is ideally a good time for the organization to to buy back and and burn the tokens but then yeah but then like reinvest it depending on what is going on down the line. So actually like counterintuitively maybe these two quarters are the right time to buy back and and and burn and then maybe reinvest it actually in three four quarters when

the the price is actually a reasonable um speculative market cap that we reinvest into the business. >> Yeah. And I don't mean to make this so much about buybacks because I think it's kind of like a you know it's it's a tricky one in terms and it's been kind of talked a lot about but do you think like like do you want to just buy back and burn or why not just buy back and hold the asset on your balance sheet? Why burn it? >> Yeah. I mean economically they're they're they're the same, right? >> The value. >> Yeah. I mean you could you could then use it again like assuming like you it's like a commodity token, right? That that you can't mint again. So you could put it back into circulation later. Um I think that's it's a good idea.

Economically they're the same. >> Yeah, they are. >> Um but one thing is that I think >> when you buy back a token and then you burn it, you actually have an easier way to show that the supply goes down over time. Um, and a lot of these tokens unlike Bitcoin or Ethereum like they they can they can be minted through governance or like a contract upgrade or something, right? Um, FRA is a little bit more difficult because now it's the gas token on our on our chain. >> So we maybe we depending on governance we buy back and hold, right? But a lot of the governance tokens you could just mint with an MSI.

>> Yeah. >> Um, so we're in like this institutional era, right? And just kind of zooming out from FRA a bit as we as we come to a bit of a wrap. There's there's just quite a a change of pace of how things are happening, right? Like the players that are coming in the space, they're just moving a lot slower than I think what we're used to. Um larger balance sheets, larger investments, longer time horizons, less risk tolerance, right? When you think about FRA's unique position in in this point, how valuable is the lindy of you know no exploits of no of very few like dpggings if any reliability genius compliance like or compatibility. Um how how how unique or how much edge and kind of like

value prop do you believe that fracks what you guys how you guys have built your company lends itself into this next era? do believe that you're uniquely positioned because of this. Um, I'm kind of, you know, giving you a layup here, but you know, just like that like very resilient, unsexy. We do things well, we do them right. It's it works in this era. How do you think about that for your company, your positioning, your brand? >> Yeah, I I think when we started with the new asset issuance like FRXUSD and all this stuff, the most valuable asset we had was is the brand and Lindy, right?

Everyone knows that we we do really good job, secure job. We are here to stay. We're long-term oriented team. Everyone in DeFi knows us. And onchain. One thing I I will say actually is that we've been very impressed that a lot of the payins and payouts and these uh public company and web two company deals that we've signed that we'll we'll announce soon is like uh they've they've already heard of Fracks and they have a good opinion of them of us. And so that actually does help really get our foot in the door than if it was just like totally something that no one's heard of or like just this new startup.

>> Yeah. >> Um I think on the time horizon stuff that that you mentioned too, >> um my contrarian take is that there's going to be like a step function growth in in like uh stable coins. And what I mean by that is like it's stable coin supply has been between like a 100red billion and 200 billion since like DeFi summer, right? Like if you if you think of it's just it's it's gone like this and then it's like just a bit. >> I think that it will keep going like this until in like a 6-month period the the supply will double. >> It'll just go go to like 600 700 billion.

>> And then it'll like stay there for I I don't know however long, but it'll go between like 600 billion and like 750 billion or something. Um, and what we're building at FRA is making sure that we uh benefit one of the most in in that step function because the way that it'll happen, right, is like >> banks for example move like 10% of their deposits into Yeah. out of nowhere like 15 billion minted, right? Or like a public company that uh everyone's probably heard of, right? They'll be like, "Now we have a stable coin treasury as part of our corporate account balance sheet that we'll do payouts in." Oh, cool. How much are you minted? Five billion, right? 5 billion minted will basically be a top five

stable coin, right? When whoever signs that deal, right? So, I think that's what's going to happen. We might be 6 to 8 months away from those that phase, right? But I don't think it's going to be this really like, you know, smooth line or like linear line. I think it'll be like a step function and we've we're building for that day where that step function is is going on. >> Yeah. Well, Sam, I hope you have a great rest of your week in in New York. I know it's going to be slammed for you and and super hectic. I appreciate you spending some time with us. Um ladies and gentlemen, this has been Stabled Up episode number 36 from the tokenization tower. Sam, great to have you, buddy.

Great to see you again, guys. We'll be right back. Continue the show on. I've got a bunch of things that I want to cover with you guys before we end today's show. Uh stay right here. I'll be right back by myself. Rob's busy, but I'm going to close this out. So, see you guys in just a second. [music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat.

>> [music] >> Money power [music] big [music] money. We get deep. We get deep. know we get deep [music] know we get deep we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get [music] deep we get

we get deep [music] know we get Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat.

[music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep.

We get deep. [music] We get deep. You know, we get deep. You know, we get deep. [music] We get deep. You know, we get deep. You know, we get [music] deep. We get deep. We know we get deep. You know, we get deep. [music] We get deep. You know, we get deep. We get We get deep. We get deep. We get [music] we get deep, you know. We get deep.

[music] [music] We get deep. [music] We get deep, you know. We get deep. We get deep. [music] We get deep, you know. We get deep. >> Yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo. What's going on, guys? Um, all right. So, Nick's in four. 80% chance, huh? I think that's pretty bullish. Guys, what what did you think of Frack Defi Dad? Um, let me know in the chat what you guys

thought. try to talk to Sam about just like getting him uh or like just understanding the token philosophy, the design, how they're thinking about the the whole operation. And then DeFi Dad is just a long time ETH bowl. So you mean you you you got to love that one. Um wow, they have upper down five minute. Uh wow, this is degenerate, dude. That's crazy. Um all right, what do we got here guys? 83% chance. These are also shortterm. Will base launch a token by 2026 December 33rd and end of the year. Damn.

Interesting. Clarity Act is sitting at 52% chance. Whoa. Okay. Not bad. Not bad. Could be better for sure. Could be better for sure. Could be better. What's going on in the markets? Um, looks like near hype, Zcash all got a nice bounce. Zcash especially. Cool. Bitcoin is holding up a bit. We'll see how long [snorts] she can hold for.

Um, man, I just keep coming back to this page, guys. Like, fees definitely pulled back a little bit from the highs. First time I've seen a red t-wop in a while. Um, so it is uh it is ETH comp week here guys. So this week uh we have a whole slew of people in person. Um, we have uh different guests from various areas. Uh we've got ne tomorrow we've got Jake from uh coin fund. We've got Peter from Relay. We got the chain link folks on.

We got Ke. We got David Sheamus, um the rain team. So, pretty busy busy uh day and and week. It's June 8th. Hype looks good. Market's bouncing. Um it seems like that war thing that happened over the weekend has kind of been resolved, at least in some sense. Um PER is just not not pushing like it should, man. It's only up 2.8% 8% given hypes given hype's bullishness. It's not great. Um we're going to have Sheamus on this week, guys. So, I know you guys are probably bullish on Purr after watching our previous um shows with David. Should be good. Um should be good. I'm going to

pop over to the timeline and just [sighs] see what's going on here. Um [snorts] this is pretty cool. Um, Canton is just literally like a 16 cent stable coin. Like, if you look at it, it's literally just been sideways this entire time. Uh, very, very, very sideways. So, I haven't really been paying attention to the feed um at all. So, intern betting his career in robotics. Super bullish. How money changed me. It's probably a crazy read, dude. There are so many cops outside.

just right outside. Like it's insane. So many cups for the Knicks game. Hope you guys are betting on the Knicks. Why the Bitcoin bottom is not in SpaceX. Space isn't a great business model in the first place. This is a good tweet. Guys, are we bullish on hype here? Are we going to get some movement back up to the upside to the higher high in the 60s or is that it? What do you guys think?

This is so This is what you want to see, guys. I mean, across all of the dexes, across everything, you just want to see this number keep going up. Not even just for Hyperlid. if you're a bull, just if you care about about DeFi in general, you just want to see this number go up consistently. Like that is all that matters. Like I if you're just bullish for any reason at all, this is what matters. This number going higher. And Bybit took a bit of a a bounce, but yeah, it's like 13 and a half% against Binance, 43 for Bybit, 28 on uh OKX, 5.8% of the global share. You you you you want to see that go up consistently.

As far as volume breakdown and derivatives, I mean like again, you want to see this in the top. You want to see this flip. I mean, that's what you're betting on. Like, if you're betting on Hyperliquid, if you're betting on per, you're betting on lighter, on any of these things, you're betting on that flip. That's your take. Hype is going to flip Salana. Only takes about 2.3x to do that. Yeah, I agree. Great content. Thank you, Shine. Yeah, I agree. It's going to flip Salana. Um, I don't know if it's going to do it that fast. Um, but I I I think it I think it has a strong chance of doing so. Um, yeah, man. We're kind of getting a nice little look on on BTC here as well. Uh, it's at

least holding up. Hype, too. So, good day for the coins there in that sense. Um, yeah. I don't know. Rob bought more Venice today on the show. Let's bet 200 USD India. I'll send you an address. versus all in fun. Spurs tonight. It's do or die for them. Guards were slow first two games. Oh, dude. Oh, come on. Come on. Come on. Oh, man. You really want to do that, man? I I just feel like you're probably right. That's the problem. Like, I feel like I feel like um if like if the if the Spurs don't win tonight, they're it's over for them. So, >> I don't know. [laughter] I'm not a big betting guy, but I think I'm going to I

I I have some stuff on Khi. I'm gonna I'm gonna do a little do a little KI. I'm going to see what the odds are. Let me tell you what Koshi's telling me here. Um so Koshi has the Knicks as the favorite. Uh but pulling back. I agree though. The Spurs need to win tonight. If they don't, if they go down 3 0, it's so beyond over. Honestly, if there was a game that they were going to win, it's probably going to be this one. So, I'm with you on that. I'm I'm I'm gonna pass on the betting opportunity. Thank you, though. Um, but I, you know, I hope I hope our uh our our lovely Knicks pull it off. I think I just got added to a

group chat called WMBB time. It's not the right name. I'll send you 200 USD. I trust you. No, no, no. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I think you're going to win. Um, let's see here. Yeah, you want to see this come back up as well. And this to get back on the full bull thesis. You You want to see this come back up. Did you guys see the Coinbase news today? We didn't cover that, but um they

are now actively deploying the USD Treasury wallet and um this should bring about $150 million a year in revenue to Hyperlquid on top of what currently is going on when Yeah. Um, so this is we we were kind of waiting for this. Like part of the thesis was like when is this money going to flow in? So I assume that it's going to start and that that'll be added to the assistance fund for buybacks every single day. Um, and I I assume that means that it's going to start like now um as of today. So that's bullish. You know, I I would have a hard time seeing this thing pull back under

that $50 level where this news came out. But again, you want to see this go higher. Like you don't you don't want us to top at three bill. You want oi of non-crypto pairs to get to at least five to 10 bill for this thing to be able to really kind of like truly separate. Um so that's what I'm looking for there. >> Wow. >> Wow. Guys, we're going to have Robbie back in the studio. Uh, not tomorrow, but Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Rahab's going to be in the studio. It'll be a lot of fun. You know where to find us.

We start a little bit late today, but guys, we're going to be live again 12:30 p.m. Eastern tomorrow. I am going to be tracking what this Coinbase news slash uh, you know, buybacks are going to look like in the assistance fund. I haven't seen actual public commentary on that yet, but I I I would assume that if this thing keeps kind of uh turning back upwards, then we will see more commentary on that side. But for now, we're not seeing much. I expect that to come, though. Guys, you're watching the rollup. It has been a pleasure. It is June 8th. You know where to find us tomorrow, uh 12:30 p.m.

Eastern time here, nowhere else, in the Empire State Building in New York City. It's been an amazing show to all you guys in the chat on YouTube. Thank you. Throw us a like. Turn your notifications on. Subscribe. You're watching the rollup live from the tokenization tower, the nest, the financial capital of the world every day. We'll be back tomorrow at 12:30 Eastern. Guys, thanks for rocking with us. I see you in the chat. Can I get a W in the chat, guys? WW Let's get some W's for the Knicks. Come on. Come on. Let's get some W's for the Knicks in the chat. All right. Let's Come on. Let's get some W's in the chat from the YouTube side. Everyone watching NOCSM Shine New Type was not here today.

Ed, Edward, Kings Clips, everyone else, W's in the chat. Thank you guys for being here. Thanks for being a part of the show. We will see you guys in the studio tomorrow after the Knicks win. W's for Knicks. See you guys then. Peace. [cheering] >> [music]