🚨LIVE: CLARITY News Today? Summer Bounce Lulls. Alpaca Raises $135M! H. Atkinson & Andre Cronje Join

Transcript

[music] [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] 17.

We'll see you around the timeline. Feels good to be back. I think the rollup [music] is one of the most premier media brands [singing] in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts [music] at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding to my library every day >> potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Dev Connect day [music] one here. I'm suggesting phase [music] >> [music] [music]

>> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity,

the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. >> [music] >> He said it. He finally said it. So bullish is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] >> [music] [music]

>> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. >> [music] >> for rollup [music] is headed to the top.

If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the rollup. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't

coming. They're simply here. It's [music] the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. Welcome to the next. See you on the show. It's Friday. Let's go. It is time to revive the bull market, guys. I appreciate you rocking with us. We have a great show for you guys here today, July 17th, Friday, headed into the weekend. Trump basically said that China's meddling in American elections last night at 9:00 p.m. He also mentioned that we were coming off a super super friendly inflation number in the CPI that was much lower than

expected. Inflation's coming down. So what does that mean? It means that we can go after another country and heat geopolitical tensions up because prices are coming down. And so this has been the back and forth and back and forth and back and forth that we've been doing in the macro markets, guys. Incredible show for you guys here today. Only a couple of guests. We got a dog barking in the background. We've got Holly from 1 in going to join us first. And then we've got Andre Cronier, the DeFi mastermind behind so many projects, most notably and most recently Flying Tulip. uh he left Sonic and now he is part of Flying Tulip. Uh as always,

shout out to our friends over at Plume. These guys are doing incredible work. Uh they are recently partnering with the likes of Tradfi all across the docket clarity act and Salman from Plume is doing incredible work uh in DC. Uh I am not in the tokenization tower. I am here in sunny South Florida getting some sun, staying warm. But as always, shout out to our friends over at Plume. Uh, we've got another great show for you guys here today. Like I said, Holly of 1-in Andre from Flying Tulip. Guys, hit us up in the chat. New type as always has been Rockmanthus. He's still bearish ETH.

That Lorenzo tweet, Lorenzo's a friend of the show. He hasn't been on in a while, but uh Lorenzo is a good good friend. Lorenzo tweeted about how ETH has only made $1,500 from fees while Robin Hood equity is making $100,000 from Robin Hood chain. ETH is so fundamentally screwed. Um, New Type man, you got some good analysis out there in the chat, buddy. I New Type man, we're going to get you one of these days. We're going to get you on the show, but for now, we're going to be rocking with you in the chat. 100% agree. Look, I do think there is a path for ETH the asset to do quite well. I actually think the disintegration of ETH foundation is a bullish development but still remains to

be seen. Are they going to be a revenue producing chain? Are they a software company or are they fundamentally different? This remains to be seen but I agree. And then and the other part to take away from Lorenzo was look Robin Hood chain pro they probably wouldn't have gone anywhere else. Robin Hood that you know even if ETH was charging an order of magnitude higher say $150,000 not just 1,500 right or 15,000 could be two orders of magnitude higher Robin Hood still probably would have launched on Ethereum at a certain point I agree the pricing mechanics don't make sense they would leave they would go elsewhere or build their own thing but ETH has a lot of room to increase prices and still

retain their customers so the ETH uh the ETH pricing model will get fixed. I have faith. I do think uh look, I think ETH is bullish uh in the long run. We'll see. Yeah, that would be legendary to meet you guys in person someday. Maybe at a conference for sure. New type. I would love to. We're going to make it happen one of these days, buddy. Uh like I said, Holly from 1 in uh Anton from 1 in just recently left 1 in. We're going to hear about that. Also, Holly and 1-in team uh put together a nice research piece from Dune uh talking around the total addressable market of uh idle capital in DeFi. So, we're going to be talking about that. And of course, Andre Cronier, guy's a character. We're going

to be uh there's plenty to talk about there. Our topics today are sponsored by Treasure. We're going to get into it. We got plenty to cover uh before we hit up our guests. So, let's get into it. First, uh, we're going to give a quick shout out to our friends at Relay or excuse me, at FRA. FRA is our stable coin, uh, future of digital money. Uh, this is open stable borderless money. Frack is leading the stablecoin race and we've got our stabled up episode powered by FRA today with Andre Cron. You guys are going to want to tune in for that.

Um, it is sunny. It [clears throat] is sunny in South Florida and um that is what we are facing here. This is powered by Relay and Relay will take you everywhere you guys need to go. Relay is doing incredibly well. I mean I was just looking at some of the crosschain interop stats the other day just thinking through like okay where are we at when it comes to bridges? What is the crosschain landscape look like today? You know we're thinking about the agentic economy. We were thinking about how these things are moving and relay is just crushing it on all angles. uh I mean daily active users, daily transactions, uh monthly volume. I think they're doing something somewhere in the billions of

dollars in monthly volume. And then you look at like how many users like they have got a large swath of uh activity that's going through their platform which is very very cool to see. So shout out to Relay. Uh appreciate them sponsoring our weather segment for today. Not much to talk about, guys. Give me What do you guys think? This piece is called the collector. Our collector friend here. He's looking at a uh a coin right here. Right. He's analyzing. Tell me what you guys think.

We're going to get some art pieces in here. You know, we're going to we're going to spruce the studio up even more and we're going to keep on keeping on here at the rollup. Guys, let's keep things rolling. We're going to get into our markets segment for today. And of course, before we do, we're going to tell you about dinari. Dinari is our tokenized equities partner at the rollup. Tokenized equities um are recently taking the world by storm. Uh the consensus view now is that there is a larger addressable market for tokenized equities than there are for stable coins. I don't know exactly how people

are making this comparison. The point is that both of these are tremendous markets. The equities market is on the scale I think of $29 trillion. That is of course a massive market. And then obviously tokenized cash in the form of stable coins. There's a lot of cash and cashlike instruments out there as well. Stable coins also massive opportunity. Dinari is sponsoring our daily equity segment which we are going to get into in a little bit. Our markets for today are a little bit down. Yeah, near is down under that $2 mark. We wanted to see that hang on. Uh chain link under that, you know, they they were hovering around 850, but they're hanging on to that $8 mark. Salana right around 75. Saw a post

yesterday that was getting circulated that said Salana was never going to hit another all-time high. uh painted a similar fractal around Ethereum and what they were doing. Uh Ethereum of course, you know, kind of double topped around that 4K mark. People were expecting the world calling for 12K. Tom Lee is still calling for 12K. We will see if we get there. Um but I think Salana is in a very precarious position. Uh the markets in general are looking a little bit rough today. uh after that macro speech from President Trump last night calling out China you know I was explaining the geopolitical dynamics that are at you know present in the world today to very

good friend of mine and explaining how right now you've obviously got the capitalistic western powers these are at odds with the eastern powers you know you've got this cohort of China Iran Venezuela and then you've got you know America which has essentially abandoned all of you know our partners Europe is kind of going in its own way and we're kind of going in this multi-polar world with not just US and not just China but you know the US, China uh uh Europe, Southeast Asia, Taiwan, you know these guys are all sort of moving in very disperate directions. So we're going to see what happens.

But it feels as if Trump is approaching the world as if it's a video game and he said level one is Venezuela. We're going to go in. We're going to snatch Maduro. He's going to walk out in a tracksuit and what do you get for beating level one? You get a little bit of gold. You get a little bit of oil, right? So, you get a little reward. Then you go, you play level two. Level two is Iran. We're having a little bit more trouble with level two, right? But then eventually you get to the boss level. And it seems as if Trump is ready to take focus away from Iran and put it onto China. Maybe for the election season in in November or maybe for some other reason. We don't know. But this was the topic of Trump's big press conference last night. And

this is sort of why markets are down despite having the impressive inflation numbers come in and uh uh you know the market bounce up over the last couple of days. So let's keep moving. Of course uh markets today are sponsored by Zama. Zama is leading on the privacy front. We're going to do do another privacy day in a couple of weeks. We're also got going to get uh the Zama team up here with a couple of their partners. I think we're going to get Panta in a couple of weeks as well. and we're going to talk to all of these guys are doing incredible work. So, uh, Zama and Zcat, I gotta say just while we're on the markets conversation, uh, Chamoth, and I think we're going to cover this tweet in a little bit, Chimamoth Palapatia, uh,

the venture capitalist, he's extremely disliked out there, but you know, these guys, you know, they make a lot of money. They tend to have some pull and, uh, whether you like them or not, you know, people take what they say seriously. uh Chimath put out an article describing how the large swath of the crypto asset class is down and he he gave this breakdown of uh how much each category was down. Unfortunately, all the way on the left for our Celestia modular friends uh data availability was down like 77% overall as a category. Uh then you just kind of you saw smart contracts, DeFi, DPIN, everything down uh typically like 50% plus. Bitcoin was down 41% according to this chart. ETH

down something like 40%. Uh the one category that was up was privacy coins. This was obviously led by Zcash. Zcash uh is holding up quite well. I mean I see here it's up around 550. Last time Zcash was at 550. It was pre-orchid exploit. Uh near was at like 250. uh the three-headed dragon VVV was upwards of 20 bucks. Ethereum or excuse me not Ethereum but Hyperlid was you know in the $70 range. So Zcash has tremendous relative strength and that is what Chimoth was depicting in his article. Uh and all that to say that Zama also falls

into this category of privacy coins as well. If we're checking in on Zama today, it's holding its own. It's flat. It's pretty much hovering around that 30 that three and a half cent mark which is where it sort of uh essentially where it launched. Frankly, it's after it found a low at around 1.8 cents. It's been up only. So, take that what you will, but it looks pretty good. It looks pretty good.

Um, let's keep moving, guys. We're going to get into some of our tweets that we have for today. Uh, shout out to Bit 5050 in the chat. Hey yo, uh, Optomism, appreciate the two silver stars. Not sure exactly what we get for that, but we appreciate you guys rocking with us here in the chat. Uh, before we get into our tweets, who do we have for you guys here? Near. Near is our exclusive AI partner. Our exclusive AI partner, one account, no borders. You guys heard about the virtual near day yesterday. Tremendous success. Had a bunch of panelists. Uh very very good show and appreciate uh all of them joining. It was a really great show and uh encourage everyone to uh check it out from

yesterday. Guys, we're going to get into this with our uh first guest Holly from 1 in. But this is what we're going to be talking about. So if you're interested in the amount of idle liquidity that we have on chain today, then you want to stay tuned for our first guest. Dune research finds 85% of concentrated DeFi liquidity is underutilized. remember UNIS swap AMM's you know all all of the entire AMM landscape transitioned from this V2 model where you just put your money in this pool and it was going to use this XY equals K formula to rebalance when swaps were made. This led to impermanent loss. It's led to a lot of things, but this was the the necessity that was required in order to facilitate automatic exchanges and

decentralized exchanges in a low liquidity environment, which was the case when D5 first started. But now we've got more liquidity. We move to this concentrated liquidity model with Uniswap V3, more recently unis swap v4 with hooks. And so now 85% of concentrated liquidity across decentralized exchanges is not doing the work it was deposited to do. The thing about concentrated liquidity is that it needs to be actively managed. According to research by Dune commissioned by 1 in uh this study rebuilds every liquidity position in roughly the top 200 pools by activity on unis swap v3 v4 pancake swap and aerodrome slipstream taking 26 weekly snapshots across seven chains

between Jan 6th and June 30th. All right, that data set feels uh pretty pretty expansive. Covered 1.84 84 billion in liquidity on average per week. Approximately 1.6 billion of which was underutilized at any given time. Yeah, that sounds like about 85%. Uh pretty pretty insane. Um let's see what we've got. 1.6 billion 85% of the liquidity there I think is just saying that it can be because the concentrated liquidity model needs to be actively pushed into the direction of where the price is. It seems like that could just be a more optimized process.

Let's keep reading. Concentrated liquidity introduced with unis swap v3 lets liquidity provider set the price band their capital covers rather than spreading it across every possible price. Remember that was the unis swap v2 model. It was says designed to offer an improvement on the constant product venues. It replaced constant product was unisop v2. Concentrated liquidity is unisop v3 and beyond. But again it you need to move the liquidity so that it is encompassing where the current price is. If the price moves you need to move your liquidity. Um as a comparison Dune found roughly 98.7% of liquidity on constant product AMM sits outside the days traded band.

Yeah. Which means like if you spread across the entire price spectrum you know most of that liquidity is never getting utilized. Out of range is only the floor. The strictest measure is out of the range since the market price sits outside of positions band. So the capital earns no fees and adds no depth. Averaged over the 26 weeks which is you know half of the year 29 and a half% of track capital was in that state or roughly $500 million in an average week. According to Dune the figure barely moved apart from an early February spike that touched 41%. the out of range share held inside a 25 to 35% band for the entire period. I mean these are pretty consistent results.

This is like a large data set. This is a large sample size and so it does signal to me that these are pretty reliable results. Being in range is not the same as efficiently working. So even just being in the range of the price that you know is taking place that day doesn't necessarily mean that liquidity is working as efficiently as it could be. A position counts as in range the moment the price falls anywhere inside its band. However wide that band is drawn. All right. So just because you're inside the band doesn't mean that your liquidity is being used and put to work. Let's keep scrolling.

So why did one inch commission this piece? This is what I'm I'm curious to know. Uh, and so being in that range, uh, yeah, we want to scroll down a little bit more. Rebuilding the broader calculation from 1 in's Aqua white paper. Dunefound V3 family capital splits into 13.7 actively used. All right, here's the quote. Due to structural inefficiencies in DeFi, liquidity providers are leaving billions of dollars in underutilized capital and millions of dollars in fees on the table. That was by Sergey uh, the 1- in co-founder. Coons out of the one inch is preparing to launch Aqua, a shared liquidity product aimed at the same problem. All right, so we are going to get Holly up in a little bit to talk about exactly this. But let's keep moving.

A third of the idle money has not moved in 90 days. Out of range capital is not automatically abandoned. Okay, this is incredible. I think these are good research studies. Ultimately, uh, you know, we've seen a lot of these studies across the board, but what the conclusion to draw here is that we need to do something about this to make sure that we are more properly utilizing uh all of this capital. Uh, and therefore, we're making the the onchain economy more efficient. So, we're going to bring Holly up in a few minutes. Let's move into some more tweets and we're going to get back to uh talking about this with Holly, getting an update on the 1-in side of things. Let's kick it over.

Killer XBT. I mentioned this uh in the beginning, but guys, unfortunately, I have this is I share this opinion until I'm proven wrong. Uh Killer XBTs says on Solana, they refuse to accept that their favorite altcoin will never hit all-time highs again. I think people are probably initially triggered by calling Solana Solana an altcoin. Uh that is the case. This was the perfect exit pump FTX needed to offload. Don't really know where he's getting that information. Do the homework on token inflation. Imagine buying an asset when the Salana Foundation can print new tokens out of thin air. It's a classic VC driven coin with massive supply concentration in the

hands of a few insiders and funds. You think Soul organically went from $7 to 300 because of demand? Demand? No, did not go. And let's show the chart. Um it's pretty pretty rough to see this but uh yeah that is the suspected uh the suspected path here. So pretty rough. I mean, I've gone on the record and said that um you know, right now the Salana memecoin trenchers, you know, just sort of left a stain on the Salana ecosystem. Uh

unfortunately, I think Salana is going to need to overcome this. It's pretty incredible because, you know, Pump Fund is still doing quite well, making a ton of revenue, but their token is just not doing well. So, you know, Pump Fund needs to figure it out. Salana needs to figure it out. you know, Cash Cat is down today. Robin Hood is transitioning from memecoins to uh, you know, from memecoins to RWAS. I don't know what what is the thesis here for Salana. They're really going gung-ho on tokenized equities. I think they need that to work in order to figure out it is a massive opportunity.

And so, I do think you could see this sort of bounce. Tokenized equities could get quite big. I think this is a one-way train. I think we're only going to see equities move in the onchain direction until they reach some sort of significant market share and there's a lot of room to grow in that regard. Whether Salana reaches another all-time high or not remains to be seen, but I do think there are companies and coins out there that have supply models that are much more beneficial and healthy and sustainable than something like Salana.

You heard Killer XPTt say Salana's supply model is unconstrained. Uh people can basically print the tokens via inflation. You also have VCs that are just waiting and continuing to wait on unlocks in theory going to dump those on the market. There are coins out there and I would point to Hyperlquid. I would point to Near especially where these are essentially fully diluted. Maybe there is some small amount of inflation. uh for instance on near we heard yesterday there's about 2 and a.5% of inflation they are working on taking that out as there's more revenue they don't need to inflate their token they can actually just use the revenue to pay for economic security or security in general to pay

those validators in cash so they don't need that sell pressure on the token they can do that and there are more examples of revenue producing uh supply limited companies out there that don't have VCs or have already washed out all of their VCs Hyperlid near fall into this camp. I just, you know, this even if Solana gets the tokenized equity thesis right, I just don't want to be in something that has the supply overhang at risk. It is a systemic risk from a financial point of view. Solonics can still do great. They can have great technology. Maybe 15 years from now, the unlocks are going to take place. The, you know, paperhand VCs are going to get washed out and the people that are still

in are in and the token is going to be fully diluted. and then you could really see some movement. Things are still extremely early. I'm not going to say they're they're never going to hit another all-time high, but in the near term, I think there are alternatives out there with better supply mechanics. That is where I would be focusing my attention. Guys, we're going to get Holly up in just a moment. Uh and then we're going to have some more time before our stabled up guest at 2:00 p.m. in an hour. So, uh, let's go ahead and bring in our first guest, Holly. Uh, Holly is, uh, in 1 in. 1 in is obviously, you know, been

around a long, long time. Uh, these guys are doing incredible work, uh, on the DeFi aggregation side. Uh, Holly is a, uh, general tinkerer. uh she is uh hands-on engineering product leadership regularly sharing technical deep dives on EVM mechanics risk five and web 3 smart contract upgrades. So, I'd be happy to get into a little bit more of a technical conversation here as we think through what the crosschain landscape looks like and what the liquidity landscape looks like in a paradigm where we've essentially moved entirely off of the uh the the typical AMM world and we're in this concentrated liquidity world uh which requires just different

sorts of liquidity management on chain. Uh so, it's an exciting paradigm. Let's go ahead. I see Holly's ready in the back. Let's go ahead and bring her up on stage and kick off our first segment for today. Holly, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you. >> Hi, thanks for having me. >> Absolutely. I was just talking up one inch a little bit. Uh you guys have been in the game for a long long time as one of the main DeFi aggregators. Uh DeFi has evolved quite a bit. Before we get into all the technical innovations that you guys have and this research piece commissioned uh with Dune, uh it is your first time on the show. I just love to, you know, hear a little bit about yourself, your background, and how you ended up finding one.

>> Yeah, very happy to be here. Thank you. Um, so I've joined 1 in as chief product and technology officer. Um, obviously that means I'll be bridging product with technology. This is coming from a a kind of mixed background spanning commercial roles on the one hand and then tech on the other with a career in blockchain based roles. Very cool. Very cool. And and before 1 inch, what what were you what were you doing? >> So earlier on in my career, I was in commercial roles um in project finance, renewable energy. After pivoting to tech in 2018, I've been in blockchain based roles as a developer, fullback

developer, blockchain developer, and lastly, blockchain archite. >> Very cool. Awesome. And so let's get into um what this piece around, you know, DeFi liquidity says with Dune. You guys commissioned this piece and essentially says 85% of the amount of liquidity that is currently out there in the AMM landscape is not being utilized to the fullest extent. Uh earlier in the show, we walked through what the liquidity landscape looks like today because we moved off of the XY equals K model where liquidity was spread across the entire you know price spectrum. Now we're in this concentrated liquidity

model. You know we define these bands of prices that is where we're concentrating our liquidity but it requires more active management. At least that is my understanding. We need to move our liquidity and manage it so that it is constantly encompassing where the current price is at any given time. And it seems like liquidity providers are just not managing their liquidity positions as effectively as possible. I'd love to hear from you, you know, what what did you learn as a result of this research piece from Dune? And then we'll get into all the exciting things that you guys are doing to help correct this massive problem.

So yeah, this the headline is what we've learned is that liquidity providers are losing money on the to so to the extent that they're not automating their their management. There is around 85% of D5 liquidity underutilized meaning the liquidity providers are not earning as much as possible not earning to the full potential of what of what they're uh providing to protocols. Um and from my perspective this there is a gap here right so capital efficiency is the next frontier for DeFi if the industry wants to run

>> cool and so this you know we walked through some of the statistics here but you know this was a pretty comprehensive report I think it was almost $2 billion $1.8 8 billion uh over 26 weeks, seven different chains. You looked at unis swap v3, you looked at aerodrome, you looked at unis swap v4, pancake swap, you know, very very expansive in this research and it it found that you know these positions weren't being managed as effectively as possible when it comes to you know what we can do and and and I think maybe there is still more to say around like the the scale of this problem. you know this is 85% it it's on the scale of billions of dollars

but I think really what what c catches people's attention is you know these are liquidity providers that are leaving fees on the table and it's I think something it was mentioned in the report hundreds of millions of dollars that were being left on the table by these liquidity providers so when it comes to doing something about this what are liquidity providers currently doing Now that is obviously falling short of expectations and what can we do as liquidity providers to correct this course.

>> You're right. So out of range positions are missing out on roughly 100 million in fees every year based on this study. Um what is typically happening is that liquidity providers a typical AMM approach is using the is using pools, right? So the liquidity providers are sending their tokens to pools and losing control over what they can then do with those tokens and What one inch is doing is now bringing a

new one in. >> Very cool. Give us a quick chronology about, you know, where 1 in has found itself in the DeFi landscape up until now and then obviously going forward, you know, there's there's uh this new shared liquidity protocol that was announced. Uh Aqua, our our community wants to hear a little bit more about that. Um, and so before we get into Aqua, maybe you could just give us a little bit of a pre-context about one where 1 in has been and uh the previous role that it's found itself in in the DeFi landscape.

>> Absolutely. So 1 in begun its life as a as a an aggregated protocol finding the best route for for people who want to carry out swaps. Um now 1 in has evolved itself into an aggregator ecosystem. We are focused on building a complete ecosystem around that. We are providing the infrastructure rails for routing across across chains across across the whole system.

>> Great. Okay. And so, um, you know, I think the the thing that people are are curious about is obviously Aqua. Uh, you know, this is something that was mentioned in this Dune research report, and I have a feeling this is sort of, uh, you know, you you do some research, you find a problem. Uh, obviously, you do some thinking around what the solution is. And so I take it Aquaway is most likely the solution to this idle capital problem, helping people retrieve the hundreds of million dollars of fees that they're leaving on the table. Just generally what is Aqua? What can we expect? You know, as much as you can share, we'd love to we'd love to hear about.

>> Very happy to talk about Aqua. So Aqua is a shared liquidity layer. So what does that mean? It means that it works somewhat like a registry. So users connect a wallet and then approve a token balance to back as many liquidity positions as they like without actually depositing their tokens anywhere. So the users tokens stay in their wallet. Obviously, 1 in is all about self- custody and real. Aqua then manages order flow and calls on the user's wallet to fill orders as per the instructions on the user's wallet to fill orders as per the instructions that have been positioned

for any >> allows them to calls for it. But is it the fact that you know in in the current regard it seems like these the uh these tokens are maybe way out of uh the price band and the concentrated liquidity position is 1 in managing this liquidity on our behalf. It's pulling the liquidity in when it needs it and is it doing that and it's just able to you know algorithmically uh optimize where the liquidity is concentrated at any given time. If so just how do this how does this work?

maybe you could just unpack a little bit more uh around the mechanism here. >> So the AC Aqua system provides a virtual balance as a pitch if you like. So the liquidity provider can allocate their funds to as many positions as they like tracked by the virtual system and as you say um those funds are then pulled when required. um the user has full control over their funds and it's made super clear in the system how um how the how the allocations are are laid out and

the user can see that in the UI and can track accordingly. So there is there is some management there on the on the user side. >> Got it. And is this primarily geared for um you know cryptonnative assets? there's such a big push into tokenized equities, tokenized RWAS, right? Th this is making, you know, kind of the headwinds, the the headlines. You know, there's calls right now around um you know, tokenized equities being a bigger potential market than stable coins, right? So, so everyone is very very excited about these stock tokens. I think Robin Hood which you know uh you know 1 in is helping people connect to

Robin Hood uh and help them go crosschain you know Robin Hood is helping expand this narrative but this is this stock token idea is catching a lot of uh a lot of wind is the is the liquidity management system around Aqua is that geared for a particular asset class or because these are tokens everyone is on chain this is effectively applicable to all asset classes is or is it primarily cryptonative or or or RWAS? Where does the liquidity management system fit in?

>> Well, the beauty of Ara is any number of strategies can be deployed, right? So, if you're asking will Aqua go live on Robin Hood chain, for example, the answer is yes. We we cater for for all tokens CRC20, we cater for RWA's token and stocks. >> Very cool. And what have you given that you know I always find this fascinating when we're >> in chain we've seen rapid expansion in the RWA category huge volumes taking place there um which is which is great right it's a major step towards tokeniz real world assets and and bringing that onchain so I'm I'm proud to say 1 in has

been a partner there since day one um our focus really is to provide the just routing and intentbased swaps for everybody um to be able to connect in their assets. So, so for us we are very aware of the trends obviously of course it's important but really our view is about what what needs to happen in the future to connect D5 with trady. So from from my perspective, from one inch's perspective, DeFi is for everybody.

>> Very cool. Um, you know, given that you you've got some history in the DeFi space and so does 1 in as you look forward DeFi as a whole. Um, you know, there's been calls around W RWAS, there's, you know, these principles of, you know, we're going to let our agent kind of interact with everything onchain. people have some varying ideas about, you know, where where they expect DeFi to expand and evolve. Do I'm just curious, do you have any any hot takes as far as what you expect on the DeFi landscape? Anything that you're continuously focusing that gets you excited that says, you know, I think this path, this part of DeFi is going to grow. Just curious if you have any any bold takes here.

>> Well, I think to pick up on on what I've I've just mentioned, DeFi is at a pivotal moment. So it's really evolving from a a niche industry if you like into a key part of the global financial system. So the next 12 months there will be transformational um particularly as tokenized assets institutional adoption and AI also accelerate. DeFi will become more efficient and accessible than ever. So 1 in is is there for that. For us it's about building the infrastructure for that future. So, not following any particular trend right now, but building for that future.

>> Yeah. And and Holly, you're hitting on a tremendous point, and this is something that we've talked about a lot on this show is that we're building for the future where, you know, the the asset classes in the at the scale of trillions ultimately are being tokenized now. And so previously thought you know there was billions of dollars of assets maybe in stable coins or DeFi cryptonnative assets and that was the scale at which DeFi was operating. You know, now I think as an industry we have our eyes set on, you know, the tokenized equities asset class, for instance, $29 trillion.

Stable coins, for instance, has its eyes set on, you know, 400, 500, if not, you know, $3 billion of stable coins. And and this is all the way upwards of, you know, uh, the the at least in the US, the the secretary of the treasury that has called for $3 trillion of stable coins. And I think what we're seeing play out now with this tokenization super cycle is, you know, first we tokenize these assets, they end up on chain. Once they end up on chain, people are going to want to do things with these assets. You know, there is this sort of mass awakening around the programmability and the productiveness that these assets can provide. And so once these things are tokenized, the

next step is that they end up landing into DeFi protocols. And I think 1 in sits at a very unique position in which it can facilitate the movement of a lot of these uh a lot of these protocols and these assets around these protocols. And all this is just to say that you know we we suddenly have moved from this collective industry total addressable market in you know maybe billions to that of 29 you know if not more trillions of dollars. And so suddenly I think we're seeing these D5 protocols get rerated with the new potential market size uh and and the size of the opportunity here. And so I I can understand how you know you guys are

taking an RWA you know oriented approach also a shared liquidity approach to prepare the infrastructure for the onslaught of new tokenized assets. >> That's exactly right. So from Aqua to crosschain innovation and best-in-class aggregation, we're focused on making onchain finance seamless for everybody. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And so um you know given given that this is the case and this industry is getting rerated higher in terms of the amount of assets that are taking place here, what what kind of you know advice would you give to let I'm going to make it a two-part question. What kind of advice would you give to liquidity providers, right?

Because there's sort of a fundamentally different audience in in you know obviously they I think in a in maybe a few weeks or months, right? The answer is just going to be use Aqua, right? But that's not available right now. What can users and liquidity providers do right now to improve their um their liquidity provisioning ultimately take back some of the fees that they're leaving on the table? Let's start with liquidity providers. Then maybe we'll get into, you know, users and and maybe institutions as well. So I think I think until Apple is officially launched, which by the way is a matter of weeks, not months, >> um liquidity providers need to have awareness of of what what their capital is doing, right? I I think this is not

necessarily the case as we've seen from from the data. >> Yeah. Yeah. They need to stay aware. Absolutely. And I think, you know, this was previously something that the industry itself was unaware of until this research piece came out. And so kudos to you guys to partnering with Dune and and, you know, providing some of the the impetus to uh do this research. And so that's on the liquidity provider side. Now, let's flip, you know, over to the the let's say the institutional side. You know, obviously you guys have interfaced with institutions and we're seeing the tokenization super cycle play out at the scale of Black Rockck, Robin Hood, you know, all of these guys are just, you know, the the kingmakers of financial institutions these days. The incumbents

are coming on chain. What advice do you have for institutions that are maybe even more so unaware, right? They're less educated, they're less cryptonative, they're now doing the due diligence and and kind of, you know, sticking their toes in and testing the waters. What advice do you have to institutions that are now taking their foray into the onchain landscape? >> Well, obviously we've seen the onchain landscape explode over the past few years. Um, obviously our focus and and I don't wish to give advice to institutions. Um, from my perspective, this is what 1 in is focused on. about building the infrastructure for the future to prov provide the best inclass

process for all parties no matter what chain they're using no matter what kind of tokens they are interested in. >> Great. Fantastic. And um you know it's a it's uh it's a tough market out there but I I I you know I take it this is this is not your first bare market. This is not one inch's first bare market. you. Thank you so much for joining. Really really appreciate it. Um I think it's time to party with all the people that that that are in there and they're excited about Aqua. They're excited about 1 in. So thank you so much for joining, sharing some insights from this research piece with Dune and uh we're we're looking forward to Aqua launch and joining you uh again.

>> Thank you so much, Robbie. >> We'll see you next time. Thanks. >> All right. All right. All right, guys. That was Holly from 1 in. pretty exciting about Aqua. Um and uh man leaving a ton of fees on the table. Um and so yeah, I mean obviously you guys heard from Holly, she's doing uh she's doing all the product work over there um uh at uh at 1 in. And so um we are seeing developments. I mean that was a pretty comprehensive study. I think the research piece in and of itself is going to benefit a lot of uh people, a lot of

protocols can learn from this research. Obviously, you know, 1 in and Dune sort of had this uh had this first. Um and so now, uh you know, they can do something about it and then we're going to I think see a lot more of these infrastructure providers do a lot more of it. Guys, we're going to get into more news. We got plenty more tweets to cover. Uh we're going to do some more tweets. We're going to bring you guys our daily equity segment. Um, let's see. Uh, hope you guys enjoyed that segment with 1 inch. They're a new friend to the show and so I think we're going to bring them on again soon. Continue to hear on the DeFi aggregation side everything that is happening. Um, new type in the chat fading killer XBT tweet. How can he say

there was no demand for Salana? We literally had the president of the United States launch a memecoin on Salana with no hiccups. Yeah. All right. I mean, that did mark the top. That was the literal top new type. I love you, man. I just I don't want to see you get left behind. Um I remember there was a tweet that ETH was the new Bitcoin. Salana was the new ETH. I just I look I think there is a lot of good building good infrastructure happening on Salana.

I just I think in order for it to ex to to really like legitimize itself and get some real revenue and see some real demand for the token, it needs to have an institutional strategy. And I just the number one application there is still pump fund. You know, we're still talking about launch the president launching the memecoin on there. Maybe I'm wrong. maybe you know and I do think Salana is generating like more like chain revenue reval economic value uh than most other chains and so it is generating revenue I think a lot of that is from like actual apps backpack is doing great there are real um there are real like sources of activity

on Salana I just don't know if what we see there unless it really capitalizes on the tokenized equities market and and But even that I I even if even if that's the case and I don't know if it will be the case because you have Robin Hood and you have stock tokens on Robin Hood. I mean they're just in an incredible position with you know Gen Z and like new era financial people coming into new found wealth. Robin Hood is an incredible position to benefit from stock tokens and tokenized equities. I think more so than Salana. So I think Salana's got to like catch up then overtake in order for it to capitalize on tokenized equities. And even if it

does that and I think it's unlikely but even if it does that I think uh the asset itself you know has this supply overhang that it needs to overcome. So that that is where I think a lot of this comes from. I definitely understand the take that Solana will not make a new high. A lot needs to change. Soul needs to change inflation rate. Salana needs more private layers for enterprises. Yeah, man. I I think you got it. And I think, you know, the most important thing that you just said there is that it needs to change its inflation rate. I mean, look, if this thing has real revenue, why does it need to inflate its token? Like, it can just pay if it if it needs to like pay validators and that's

why you have inflation on these things, just pay the validators in cash. just use the the the revenue from the chain to pay the the expenses for the chain in cash so you don't have the sell pressure on the token. There's already going to be enough sell pressure from the VCs. That is where I think you need to like control the supply, control the selling pressure so that you can actually overcome that with the amount of demand that you do have and obviously you need to increase the demand so that you can e more easily overcome that. FOMO app is killing it, but I want to find out what chain is contributing to most of the FOMO growth.

Is it mainly hyper pers or the salon of memes? Yeah, I saw a lot um I saw FOMO was crushing it. I don't know what that was uh for. Um so yeah, I would check out FOMO. I think they uh I've seen that they're crushing it as well. Um New Type as always, man. Appreciate you rocking with us. We appreciate your uh your perspectives here because not going to say that we got everything right, but you know, we want to have all the smartest people on the show and your questions, your perspectives help us frame what we ask these guests. So, keep them coming. We've got another fun one that we're going to we're going to check out now. We're going to cover some more tweets and we've got Stabled Up with Andre Cronier in a few minutes. Uh so, let's bring it up.

[snorts] We're gonna we're gonna bring up uh we just had one inch on the show, so we're going to bring up our first humanoid robot uh kickboxing match. Um we don't want any more commercials, guys. We want to get right into it. Uh first humanoid robot kickboxing match officially happened today. I saw this I was like, I need to show this on the stream tomorrow because I mean I saw people commenting and just saying that this was like the next biggest sport. Um I agree. I think this is going to be huge. Just watching this for a little while. This is in the most crude state that it will ever be in. It's only going to get more entertaining from here. Let's go ahead and play the clip.

[screaming] Oh. Oh my god. Oh my neck is wobble. [screaming] [laughter] Oh my god. How do they keep score?

Oh my god, the white robots dancing. Do you guys like this? I find this. [laughter] They said once the head comes off, the headkick no longer counts. [screaming] Oh my god. Roundhouse to the face. Yeah.

Uh, but you already know they're going to be doing these underground robot fights in the basement somewhere. Just good oldfashioned fight club. And um, I've been saying it. Uh, I think you guys saw I had a 20 minute. So, so you guys asked me what my uh, thesis is on a 20-year time horizon. The only thing when I look at like the industries that are so extremely early, I I think robotics. I look at this and I think there is so much potential here because not only we're going to use these things for entertainment, they're going to be in factories. They're going to be displacing labor. We already have like the reason that these things are able to do this and actually reason that these things are able to do this and

actually stand up and throw these kicks. The one is dancing the ring. I don't know if someone's controlling it, but you could just probabilistically put an LLM into the brain of these robots and use that to control all the different facets and components and limbs and hands and arms. All of that can just be delegated to Chachi PT LLM specially purpose-built for robotics, you know, boxing. And so given that, it almost feels as if you've solved the hard part. Now it's the hardware that is just going to be pumped out and it's just going to the the the dimensions now the bottlenecks and we've heard Elon talk about this

with respect to robots. You just got to increase the degrees of freedom and so like you know our hands have like whatever it is like 29 degrees of freedom or something like that. You know, it's difficult to to build that in hardware, but that's the 20-y year time horizon is that we're just going to get really smart designers, engineers, and architects that are going to spend their time working on increasing the number of degrees of the increasing the degrees of freedom that robots have at their disposal. And frontier models are going to get better. And then you're going to train these models specifically for uh robots and robotic tasks. And so as these two converge, they accelerate and

they compound. Robots are going to get exponentially better over the coming years. And I think this is going to be a trend that accelerates and it doesn't slow down. And so again, this is very crude. like this is basically a joke right now. But I think as these things accelerate and they do get better and improve, this is become going to become a serious industry and you're going to end up with several large companies and markets that are built on the backs of robots. Um, now it's just about pumping out the amount of robots and improving improving the degrees of freedom that's going to make the robot hardware better.

And then improving the frontier models is going to make uh the robotics choices, decisions, mechanics, all of that is going to improve as well. On the show the other day, we did cover like, okay, if you wanted to bet on this asset class growing, how would you go about expressing that view? uh there's probably prediction markets that would allow you and just betting on, you know, the sheer growth of the robotics industry. You can probably express a pretty clean view in that regard. Uh there was also a an index that tracked um uh bearings. Bearings are effectively like this piece of metal that robots need in order for them to function. And so it it's you know this very important material this piece uh that all the

robots are going to need implemented in order for them to you know work. And so if you wanted to express a bullish view on robotics you could invest in bearings and you know obviously that would uh give you exposure to the growth of the robotics asset class. So different ways to express this view but and and there are other indexes indices there's companies that are doing uh investments into the robotics uh you know category as well like robo strategy we saw a lot of you know crypto people leave and go into that. So there's different ways to express this but I would um I would take this seriously. I know it looks pretty funny now, but I would take this seriously as this uh as this uh category continues to expand and more investment

starts to pour in here. All right, let's keep moving along. Next up, we've got Chimoth. Uh Chimoth uh put out this article um and I think it's pretty fascinating. Obviously, there's one outlier in this chart. Uh we talked about this at the beginning of the show, but what we have here is effectively saying all the crypto categories, right? Okay. And he walked through data availability on the left is down the most. Deepin down the second most. In here you got smart contract, oracles, I think bridges, you got NFTts, you got meme coins, Bitcoin, uh, RAW, like all of the categories are down except for privacy coins he says are up 127%. Obviously, uh, this is led by

Zcash. Um, if we take a look at Zcash, uh, my Coin Gecko is still on Zama, which is obviously in that privacy coin category as well. If we're looking at Zcash, I mean, it's got incredible strength. It's sitting right around that 550 mark. Um, over the last year, I mean, it was at 35. Even if you just put easy numbers, you say it was at 55 before it really took off, it did a 10x. And so, it did a 10x and the market cap was significant. And so that really dragged up the entire privacy coin uh category as a whole. Uh Monero also did well during the same time frame. Uh you had other privacy coins. I saw Dash. I saw other things. Near also you could

argue fits into this category as well as the crypto AI category. And so what uh Chimoth says here is he lays this out. Well, we're just going to quickly go through this article is that we have to look at why privacy coins are doing so well. And so, uh, the privacy tokens climbed 127% while every other crypto category traded lower. Uh, the reason Chimoth attributes uh, this growth uh, and this gap in growth to Bitcoin's uh, transparency. So, Bitcoin's public ledger makes transactions, wallets, and coin history traceable, which can weaken fungeability. There's another uh chart in here. Let's scroll down to the next

chart because it shows uh basically obviously, you know, there's 21 million Bitcoin, but when you really look into it, there's good Bitcoin and bad Bitcoin. That is what the the point that Chimath is getting at here is um there's one Bitcoin clean mined in 2020, you know, fresh off the block reward came right from the Bitcoin block address in cold storage, sent to exchange maybe right from a minor into cold storage. That's an example of a clean Bitcoin. But then you have a tainted Bitcoin mined in 2018. Maybe it went through a mixer. It hit a sanctioned address. it was on the dark market, you know, maybe it got traced into the Silk Road, you

know, wallet addresses. So, pretty, you know, different life cycle or journey that this clean Bitcoin went on versus this tainted Bitcoin. And so, if I'm an investor, you know, and these institutional investors like Black Rockck, right, I think had I the last I saw, Black Rockck had something like 47 billion of Bitcoin in its wallets. Um, and this was because it needs this Bitcoin in order to uh facilitate redemptions in its ETF. If I'm BlackRock, I don't want to touch the same Bitcoin that was potentially in the Silk Road or hit a mixer or hit any sort of

sanctioned address. that creates a very very murky uh capital profile for the assets that I have under custody that I need under custody in order uh to to back these ETFs. And so um I think this is a problem that we're going to continue to face. BlackRock is going to face this because they're going to continue to uh accumulate more um they're going to accumulate more Bitcoin as their ETF grows. And so you can see where does this uh where does this chart come from? It comes from chain analysis which is the company that's responsible for labeling a lot of these addresses and putting even more visibility into um

you know the the the the visibility of Bitcoin and deanonymizing a lot of this. And so Shamas says at the wallet level Bitcoin's transparency can expose individuals. A Bitcoin address is more like a pen name than a bank account. It remains pseudonominous only until someone links it to a real identity. And that is Chain Alice's uh entire business model. If we scroll down, uh Chimoth talks about, you know, what we can do to address this privacy issue. Uh developers went back to a discovery made decades ago. Talks about the zero knowledge proof. Uh and he says, you know, uh basically gives this analogy to show how zero knowledge proofs work. You guys have been watching this for a long time. you guys already know how zero

knowledge proofs work. Um, and so he says the same logic applies to private digital money. In a private transaction, the hidden information is the payment itself. Who sent it, who received it, which coins moved, and how much was sent. A zero knowledge proof turns that hidden information into a public receipt the network can check. That is important because the network still needs to verify the legitimacy of this transaction. Needs to make sure that there's no double spending. you're not in, you know, printing new Bitcoin or new Zcash out of thin air, right? It needs to verify these things, but it doesn't want to give this information away. And so, he talks about how uh his research team at Social Capital traced financial privacy from first principles.

And he talks about how Bitcoin fails on four fundamental properties of money uh and uh explains why gold and cash can pass this fungeability test, but Bitcoin fails. And so if you're looking for f real fungeible money, private money, uh and he talks through, uh, you know, zero knowledge proofs, obviously this is, you know, the the the cryptographic primitive that Zcash is built on, uh, you know, Zcash is built on zero knowledge proofs. Specifically, it's built on Starks and Snarks. You know, this has been deep, deep research, uh, in the cipher punk community for a long, long time. We've talked to a lot of researchers that have done significant real work on building out these

cryptographic primitives and he talked about how Zcash uh you know solves a lot of these problems. Uh and so this was you know this was like a real piece of research. Um and he talks a lot about how privacy tokens are going to be viewed in the future. Uh in the chat we have new type trader says I don't like this path. What happens when North Korea poison transfers like 50 cents of Bitcoin to every wallet? Will every wallet then be blacklisted? It's tough, man. I mean, if they're uh if they're sending, you know, obviously, right? Like, you know, in the Bitcoin network, you can, you know, the Bitcoin

wallets only accept Bitcoin, right? Um, and so there's things that they can do differently on Ethereum or other chains, you know, that they can't do on Bitcoin. But I think what you're saying is let's say they take Bitcoin and they poison every wallet. I I think there's tracking that could be done at the asset level. So we would know that, you know, that 50 cents has, you know, was sent by North Korea if we labeled their wallet, right? And we could point that out and say, "Hey, this this Bitcoin is blacklisted. Don't, you know, touch this 50 cents, but you can still continue to use, right, like the rest of the Bitcoin that you had in that wallet." Yeah. I it's a very tricky situation. Um it depends how regulators

are going to look at this. We haven't really seen this become too much of a problem yet. I foresee like this won't really become a problem for retail users. But when it comes to institutions, they want to stay as far away from sanctioned addresses and sanctioned uh assets as possible. And so they could be in a tricky situation uh where they don't want to touch these assets whatsoever. But pretty interesting to see Chamash Chimath get into this. Uh you know these guys uh I listen to allin sometimes you know Chimath and Jason and David Saxs uh and these guys you know they hop on the podcast. Uh I hear Jason talking about Tao you know all the time. Uh it's pretty it's pretty you know it's pretty

compelling to hear how Chama thinks about privacy coins and and is taking a particular interest in Zcash. Uh, and I think a lot of people are going to continue to do this. And also, if you just look at the raw outperformance and the flows here, Zcash has tremendous relative strength uh, relative to the rest of the market right now. Guys, let's keep moving. We've got a lot to cover uh before we bring Andre Cron up for stabled up. Um, so we're going to keep moving along. I know we want to get into uh daily equity uh our daily equity show, but before we do, we're going to give a shout out to Lei. Lei is building infrastructure for

crosschain swaps, bridging and routing to across the onchain economy. These guys are doing fantastic. again liquidity infrastructure to support the ecosystem at large. Especially as we get this tokenization super cycle bringing trillions of dollars in assets onchain, they're going to need to find a home. Leafy can help uh bring those assets exactly where they need to go anywhere across the onchain ecosystem. Guys, this was pretty cool. Anim saying that token buybacks are not enough. I find this kind of research compelling. These are great perspectives. You have you might have your opinions about Ansim and his token, but uh I I tend to enjoy when we have these uh pieces of analysis.

Token buybacks cannot rescue weak valuations. Crypto trader Anom said token buybacks do not necessarily provide lasting support for valuations, pointing to the sharp gap between hyperlquid and pump fund. We're talking about this a little bit earlier. You know, Hyperlid uh something like what is it uh fully diluted 65 billion versus 1.4 4 billion in fully diluted valuation for for pump fund. Uh the two platforms uh hyperlquid generates 800 million uh pump fund 440 million. So yeah, here is the gap. I mean they're generating you know hyperlquid's generating about double the amount of uh annualized revenue than pump fund. Yet hyperlquid carries a valuation almost 30 times more

than 30 times that of pump fun. And so um what is this gap? Why does this gap exist? Uh Anom argues that Hyperlquid consistently rewards core users while pump funds still unfulfilled airdrop promise has weakened its trust premium. Trust is a very fickle thing here in crypto. You know, we've been through multiple cycles. We see how mercenary Capital uh moves throughout the space. You know, I was chatting with another DeFi team that prioritizes buybacks and the way that they explained it is that um verifiability is crucial when it comes to these buybacks. The markets

always want to be forwardlooking. So just saying, "Hey, we've done this amount of buybacks in the past is not enough." the community, the investors, right? The investing community as a whole wants asurances going forward that there's going to be uh buybacks in the future. That is what the market is looking for for a continuous bid on a particular asset. And so my understanding is that hyperlquid you basically have this assurance right that 99% of the revenue in the hyperlquid ecosystem is going to flow into the hyperlquid asset as in the form of buybacks. They've made this clear. You can see it on chain. They have these

verifiable asurances that this is going to take place. I might be wrong guys in the chat. Feel free to correct me, but my understanding of pump funds buyback model is it's kind of like, trust me, bro. It's kind of like when we want, if we want, you know, we might take it away in the future. You don't really know when it's happening or how it's happening, but we're going to do buybacks when we feel like it. It's very informal. It's very lacadasical. It's very much like up to pump fund. And you don't really get the verifiable asurances in the pump fund buyback model that you get in hyperlquid, right? And so if I'm an investor and I see, you know, two companies with relatively

similar revenue profiles, but I have this not just this trust, but this verifiable assurance that one of those companies is going to be taking that revenue and acrewing that value into its asset. That's the company that I'm going to go with. And right now, Hyperliquid has that. Pump Fund doesn't have that. And there's very few companies that have that. But that's why we're seeing a concentration in the assets that or an investment concentration in those assets, right? Hyperlid falls into that category of verifiable assurances. I think very few other ones fall into that category, but just to name a few, Aerodrome has this verifiable assurance.

We know day in and day out the revenue that occurs in the in the aerodrome protocol is going to flow verifiably into the arrow uh token. Uh similarly I think near uh I mean I talk a lot about near because I think they're doing great work but they also have this verifiable assurance. I think uh Alex Chevhenko came on the show and he said uh they've got this model where uh you know a certain portion of the revenue flows into the token every single time uh from near intense I think it's almost all of the revenue and then when it comes to the protocol because you know there's different products uh you know some of that revenue flows into

the labs corporation um but there again verifiable assurances that this uh revenue flows into these tokens Uh the other one which I got to give a shout out uh because I was unaware of this but I I've seen their token perform well over the last couple of weeks and I think this is the reason why is Maple. So Maple Finance, we had Joe come on the show. Uh we asked him about the revenue profile. He said that they're doing about 1.25 million a month in revenue and but they have these different buckets, right? and they said, "Okay, uh, anything between a million and two million, I think it's like 25% of," and I don't want to, you know, you guys can go back and and watch the show with Maple, uh, to to verify

these numbers, but I think it was maybe, you know, say 20% of the revenue between 1 and 2 million goes into the token. Uh, between two and three million, maybe it's 25%. And then between 25 and uh, or excuse me, two and, you know, maybe upwards of 5 million, uh, you know, more. So that is when uh you know there's even more uh revenue that flows into the token. So uh that is you know another verifiable model that you can use to determine how much of the revenue that these companies generate is going to end up acrewing into the token. Uh but that's what the market is looking for. I think that is another way of painting this trust premium that Anom is talking about. uh the market is going to

reward verifiable assurances in the tokens that um you know we know that this value is going to be flowing into those into those assets. Uh let's continue. We've got about two minutes before uh our next guest joins us. Um, and so, uh, we are going to chat about Eric Balenunos, the ETF guy here. Tro active ETF. TKNZ is live today. First multi-token active spot ETF. Um, they've been around for a long, long time. Feed 75 business points. Opens with 15 million in assets. And here's the holdings to start uh, which show

underweight Bitcoin and overweight most of the rest, especially hype. Let's sh scroll down a little bit to see what the uh breakdown here in this fund is. Obviously, they've got Bitcoin and Ethereum. Uh let's scroll down a little bit to see the rest of this. Um I believe they've got Hyperlid in this as well. So, Bitcoin and ETH, uh, Binance in here, Salana in here, XRP in there, and then Hyperlid in there as well. And so, I think I mean, is Eric Balentuna saying that this is the first uh indicy ETF that we have that's tracking a basket of

crypto. It's pretty cool if that is the case. Um, and so, uh, yeah, pretty pretty cool to see this. Um, and so, um, man, I do think that we're just going to see more institutional investors, uh, which is pretty, pretty fantastic. I think this is going to open up access. Uh, what else we have in here is, you know, the fact that Salana, XRP, Binance are in here. I just, you know, we're going to get more creative in terms of the um uh the basket of assets that are chosen to represent these indices. You know,

obviously Bitcoin is in here, ETH is in here. Um if anything, I think Hyperlid is a uh you know, pretty underweight uh represented here. Um, but I think again like if I'm creating an indicy and I think you know you guys saw the N7 index, that's our NEO finance index and we've got the likes of Ether Fi and Hyperlid and some of the other revenue producing companies in there. Then we're going to revitalize that a little bit more and uh we're going to we're going to do some uh we're going to do some uh some adjustments in the N7 index because there are real coins out there uh generating real revenues and acrewing that value to the tokens with a

verifiable assurance that the revenue is going to be flowing into the asset. Uh and remember that are those are the assets that we're prioritizing. And so again, like if I think about a Solana, I think about some of these assets like a pump fund, you know, it's not enough to just have revenue and it's not enough to just, you know, have like this large network model with a lot of activity. I want a verifiable assurance that the revenue that, you know, one that they're generating revenue, two that they have this revenue flowing into the token. Those are the two criterias that I have for where I'm allocating because those things exist. We we haven't had those in any other time frame. Now that those exist, uh that is where I'm allocating capital.

All right, next up, we've got our daily equity segment. Let's get into it. Play play the animation uh because we're going to talk about some tokenized equities because they're continuing to rally. [music] All right. Uh, the KOBSC letter. Uh, I feel like this is just our daily equity, uh, every single time. Uh, the current bull run is historic, guys. People were calling for the top last night, uh, when Trump said that China was fiddling around in our elections. People were scared. They were concerned about what this could mean for the equity market.

Uh, things still seem pretty, you know, okay for the moment. Uh but again you know and then we al also had Kimmy K3 that got announced. Uh token consumption is still pretty high on that but uh people were looking at uh you know what this could mean for memory uh and semiconductors. And so we are watching that very uh closely. The S&P 500 is up 95% since the end of 2022 placing the current bull market within the strongest 10% at this stage of the cycle. Uh, by comparison, the top 25% of historical bull markets gained roughly 50% over the same time period. Man, it this

this sounds like we're, you know, what this is trying to suggest is some, you know, entering of euphoria. Um, but again, you know, we've talked about this in the past. We've talked about how, you know, the multiples on these companies, on these equities is still relatively reasonable. I think something like an average of 25x, you know, once you get above 27x is when I think it's a little bit overheated. We're not quite there yet. Uh these companies um aren't really overvalued relative to their revenues. The question of course is how durable are these revenues. Um but again, you look at that and then you also we you know, we talked about earlier in the week how uh households have the largest amount of

cash on hand that they've ever had. So yeah, the market's up a lot, but these households also have a ton of cash. So it it feels like there's a lot more room to run. By comparison, yeah, 25% of the historical bull markets gained roughly five 50% over the same period. Uh meanwhile, the medium bull market deliveres 35% after three and a half years. Current bull run has remained within the strongest 10% of historical bar bull markets for two years. Uh if you exclude the March April 2025 correction, since the April 2025 low alone, the S&P has surged 51%.

Incredible. Um guys, the S&P is on a historic run. Uh the question is how much longer can they keep this up? That is the question. Um you know, I think they can they can keep it up for a little while. I mean, you know, it's it's a little bit concerning to hear, oh, things are so good right now because, you know, it tends to imply that things can't stay this good forever. But when you really look into the nuts and bolts here, you know, there's just this continuous rotation happening. And so, it it's not like we're getting this like, you know, rates are much higher than they were for a long long time during the ZERP era,

right? We were close to zero. we actually have room to cut if necessary. And so it actually feels like the the market has some breathing room. It's not overheated. The labor market's doing okay. Inflation is coming down. Multiples aren't super high and there's a lot of cash on hand and dry powder from a lot of investors. And so, you know, maybe you're due for a correction, but it just doesn't quite seem like we're in this like super overheated market right now. Um, looking at this year 1 2 3 4. Um, I mean, we obviously have seen a correction in the crypto markets. Um, I think, you know, people

have been looking at the correlation between the crypto native assets, digital assets, and equities. You know, they've also said that the time in which you know the, you know, people typically say that digital assets are the most reflexive asset class. And so that would lead us to believe that it will uh recover uh quicker and react quicker to evolving market conditions. What that means is that if there's a correction in the equities market, you would expect digital assets to uh bounce back first before equities do. But again, we haven't seen that correction in the equities market. Little Miss Gun, appreciate you rocking with us in the chat.

We just haven't seen that correction in the equities market. And so, there could be this inverse correlation between the equities market and the crypto market that we're seeing play out right now. I think if equities do correct, initially that's going to be negative for digital assets, but over time digital assets would react first to the friendlier market conditions that would come as a result of that correction. So that's what we're seeing playing out on the equity side of things. Um, we're going to uh continue to monitor this and for now things seem to be okay, but we're watching this closely.

Let's keep moving along. I think we've got one more tweet that we're going to cover before um we get Andre Chromate up. Uh we're getting him ready in the back. Uh and we're going to cover some more news in the tokenization space. So, let's go ahead and bring it up. We're going to be talking about uh Alpaca and the raise that they just had. Uh they just announced a $135 million raise led by Peak Partners. Uh major participation by Ellie Fund VC and additional new and returning investors from Opera Tech Venture Capital Arm at BNP

and Unbound. guys, Alpaca is doing some very, very good work in the tokenization space. For a $135 million raise, it's flying under the radar. These guys underpin a lot of the tokenized equities conversation. Um, and so if you haven't really heard a lot about Alpaca, I'll tell you a little bit more about them now. You know, they have this $135 million equity round. Uh, that brings their total financing up to 400 $435 million. Uh we talked about who their investors are. This capital they said will support Alpaca's expansion of agent first brokerage APIs for tokenized global markets. So they are leading the

charge on tokenization. Uh obviously you know we've seen quite a bit of RWA tokenization up till now. We've heard a lot from the likes of the Robin Hood folks that are you know doing this tokenization ondemand mechanism. So they've raised 135 million. Uh they talk a little bit more about it here. Uh and like I said, 435 million in total financing including the raise and debt financing uh primarily from Payword, the parent company of global uh digital asset platform Kraken and Uh so Kraken is heavily involved here. Uh we expect Alpaca to continue to facilitate the tokenization super cycle. Uh this financing like we said will accelerate

the development of their agent first brokerage infrastructure. So, they're going to get a uh APIs that agents will be able to use to execute transactions. They're going to help financial companies build, launch, and scale investing products um worldwide. Uh the milestone builds on their business growth, highlights the strong execution they've had this year. Uh they acquired the registered broker dealer, and they have finalized the acquisition of the UK and European entities. So a lot of regulatory capital being deployed uh doubling revenue every year over year for the third year in a row surpassing a one and a half billion dollars in assets under custody for the underlying stocks backing tokenized equities. So that is

the primary role that alpaca plays in the tokenization market today. You guys have heard about how massive the tokenized equities market is. Alpaca serves as one of the primary custodians for the underlying equities and so the underlying stocks backing tokenized equities is uh is where Alpaca fits in. Uh they effectively hold these and then they facilitate the tokenization of these equities and so they have several partners in the space monthly active API users increasing nearly 4x as they expand Agentic AI cap capabilities. So, uh, execution via APIs, you know, deep into this tokenized

equity space, uh, serving a role as custody partners for a lot of the tokenized equity players, um, all across the board, you know, in several different chains. Uh, again, we believe that this is a massive, massive opportunity. Uh, we believe we're going to hear and see a lot more from Alpaca. And so we're going to uh we're going to we're going to continue to watch closely at what Alpaca is doing as they pioneer tokenization super cycle and tokenized equities. Really really nice positioning at the cross-section of two accelerating narratives. Guys, our next guest, our next guest, you guys know him well.

Uh Andre Cronier, he's a systems architect. Uh he's one of the earliest builders in DeFi. Uh he created one of the first DeFi yield vaults. Uh he is now working on Flying Tulip. Uh and Flying Tulip uh we're going to get into and talk about more today. They had a very very uh interesting launch model where they initially raised some capital for this. I like Andre because he has a lot of uh cryptonative ethos to him and uh you know he hasn't he hasn't been institutionalized like some of the other guys that are out there. So, uh, things in a very creative, very unique way. I'm excited to have him up on the show.

Guys, this is going to be stabled up. Uh, episode 41. We're going to bring up Andre in just a moment. Let's go ahead play the animation and, uh, let's get him ready in the back. [music] Welcome back to another episode of Stabled Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital dollars, stable coins, and the future of decentralized finance. The >> show is made possible by FRA, and FRA is powering the financial engine of the internet, powering FRXUSD, and genius compliant stable coins. This is the stablecoin super cycle made possible by FRA. Now enjoy stabled up, our weekly stable coin show.

>> [music] >> here. You know, very unique launch strategy here. >> Long ago I was on here. Long ago I was on here or at least it doesn't feel that long ago. >> I think it was just a few months actually. What uh what have you been up to? um roll out mostly, you know, trying to get products online as as quickly as security allows and hopefully as fast as investors want, which is always a a interesting tug and pull game, I think. Um, >> do you

uh do you find yourself wanting to ship faster than investors want you to? >> No, no, no. I mean, investors always want everything live yesterday. Um, security is always the biggest constraint, you know, cuz it's audits is one thing. Um, I I think while audits are very important, they're a little bit overplayed in the space. and not not overplayed. Too much emphasis is put on only audits and then a lack of you know infra security, key security, um secondary order securities, things like circuit breakers or outflow

monitoring. Um and those things take time, you know, like um capped launches, slow approaches. And it it also creates user friction which in itself isn't nice >> because you end up limiting what your users can do at any given point in time and that also you know prevents scaling. >> Yeah. Yeah. I just saw there was a recent uh I think it was a vulnerability on Austium the perex and $18 million left the protocol like that and people are calling Yeah. Yeah. That's why circuit breakers exist. They're a feature not a bug. Um and so uh >> so historically circuit breakers didn't really make sense because >> there were only two interacting parties.

It was the depositor and the smart contract there. There was nothing else there. There was no multi-IG. There was no, you know, offchain counterparty. Um, so old we we've inherited a lot of the design principles of old DeFi into this new category where we are now, which which is closer to onchain companies than it is decentralized finance. Um, so you know, back then if you had a smart contract and someone could not have instantaneous liquidity, you you'd be

dead in the water right off the bat. >> Nowadays that you have, you know, a line of communication, a support channel, people you can reach out to. I I I think the assumptions are very different. And circuit breakers now make sense as well, right? Because circuit breakers are there And and our our system is also multiple layers of circuit breakers. And I've seen the friction it causes for users, you know, cuz a user might be used to or or or the fear it can cause, right? Cuz cuz using our circuit breaker as an example, we when you request the funds out, it goes into a queue and then you can claim it

in 6 hours. But now myself sometimes while using the system I'll I'll claim it and I'll go check on epherscan and I'll see oh it didn't go to my wallet it went to zero xcb which is our service but you know in my mind I'm like holy crap what went wrong meanwhile you know it's just sitting there waiting to be released so that I can claim it in a few hours but but something as simplistic as that you know causes fear and panic from a user's perspective. >> Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully we can solve some of that with UX developments, right? And a lot of this is, you know, going to be obuscated underneath the hood. And you know, the the I think a lot of one of the building principles that I I've heard from developers as of recently has been look, we're building

for the next cohort of users, not necessarily the cryptonative ones that have been here and are the most sophisticated. You know, we're okay with sort of showing something on the UX side, right? And and on underneath, right? We know that, you know, it's in the circuit breaker. it's going to get claimed, but we're going to show the number as if it's, you know, still with the user because ultimately it will be and sort of >> maybe take some shortcuts that, you know, back in, you know, the the more the the DeFi purist days wouldn't wouldn't have really been uh wi within the realm of what people would have been accepting.

>> Yeah. I mean, back then, you know, if again, if your counterparty is just a smart contract, I think it's not it's not too much for the user to expect that they have instant liquidity and instant access. Um, that's a fair ask if the only thing I can talk to is the smart contract, you know, cuz I can't queue a transaction in the smart contract and then ask someone to expedite the queue for me because in some cases, you do need to do that. So I look I I think the the old age fight between security and user experience is as old as time.

You know I mean it comes down to you can have a password of 1 2 3 which from a user experience side is more convenient but much [snorts] less secure. So what did they start doing? They started enforcing more and more complex passwords. Now you need at least eight characters and you know alpha numeric capitalization and some symbols. That's a lot harder to remember but it enhances the security.

So so security and UX will always fight with each other. >> Yeah. I think this is just a part of the space maturing where we're starting to realize look we have to start including these small UX frustrations that ultimately provide a better order of magnitude in security. >> Mhm. Especially as and and and this is again a huge difference between you know sort of 2020 2021 or even earlier as early as 2018 decentralized finance which was the goal was pure immutability and pure decentralization.

>> Right nowadays I I'm I don't even preach that anymore. If if if if I work with a new team and they ask me if they should have their contracts upgradeable or immutable, I always tell them upgradeable. I I think it's non-negotiable nowadays. You have to be able to upgrade your code. But that immediately means you have the biggest threat vector known to your entire protocol. Cuz if if if >> if you have one developer key that's sitting on some guy's PC and he's able to unilaterally do a upgrade call on that contract, that can steal all of the money. So now you already have to make sure there are and and this is why I say, you know, smart contract audits

aren't what they used to be. They're they're still majorly required but the best audits in the world won't capture that vector >> you know so you need >> traditional security in front now as well to make sure hey the the the key is properly offsite and you know probably some HSM signing or ideally the deployer key should be immediately handed over to you know a time lock and a multisig um but even therein is now again a different a different trade-off of consideration that you need to make because if if the contracts are fresh and you just upgraded it, you might you might not want the time lock because you might want you might need to be able to

respond within a fairly short time window. Now, if something goes wrong, you can't wait 72 hours to do an upgrade or a freezer or something. So, >> so your your your contracts can't just be a single admin role and that admin is a time lock and that time lock is in a multi. So using ours as an example, anything that moves money sits behind time lock and sits behind a multic. Anything that can that can momentarily pause or delay, so something that can either drag out the circuit breaker a little slower or pause funds outflow.

that concept behind the time lock you know that we we we need to do in collaboration with and I mean there's some great teams out there that were also trying to still on board um Hyper Native Seal 911 obviously um so you you know now all of a sudden from the base code level you need to start thinking about this role separation and how how these separate roles can sit in their separate areas. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I think you know this is one fantastic observation given that you've been you know in the space you've worked on multiple projects you've you've got the benefit of hindsight and uh and learning through the iterations of some of these things and you know

there there's been several iterations that this space has gone through you know philosophically which calls for different design choices both on the on the security front as well as on the UX front and as you said these things are are constantly at odds with one another as we you We'll we'll get into Flying Tulip and and kind of the nuts and bolts there and and you know, all all the updates, but I'm just curious before we dig in deeper. You know, some general observations that you've had. You mentioned auditability. You mentioned sort of this dichconomy, security, and UX.

You know, some of some of your projects, you know, you you've you've worked on, they're they're continuing to run. Um what have been the lessons like you know what are what are some of the the observations you know the general shifts and evolutions that the space has gone through that you're now putting into pro in in into practice with flying tulip you know in addition to auditability and security what else have you noticed about the space that's changed since you know the the the good good old days if you will >> um I I I think the most important Second one is decentralization is dead. Um we're no longer striving towards decentralization.

If if if nowadays and and and and truth be told, I I I think this shift even started happening around probably towards the end of 2023, maybe even 2024 cuz I something like yearns fair launch which you know the the the so-called immaculate conception like like from the get-go I designed it as a mechanism of decentralization which is why you know I didn't have tokens everything was given away to the protocol users there was no team there was no foundation there was

none of those allocations the goal there was decentralization right it's it's the it it it was trying to as closely copy the Bitcoin playbook where the original founder leaves and a community has to take it over. Um that today that today people are won't be interested in. People won't want that. They they need someone behind it that keeps driving value because the the tokens have become almost too valuable to the point where the the person holding the token. the

and and this is also just an evolution of the of the user base interacting with blockchain and crypto as a whole cuz back then the majority of users were you know technocrats or at least technically educated people and they understood the token's value beyond it as an investment vehicle and I think nowadays everyone sees it first as the investment vehicle and second as a utility based something or anything like that. Um, another example of immutability being dead, you know, is is something like um the decentralized um keeper network that we built

originally for urine and maker and a bunch of the stuff that was using it back then. that was again moving towards a decentralization and b immutability in that it was designed as a marketplace for unknown actors to be able to work jobs and provide facilities on chain. Uh again nowadays, you know, everyone just does their own infra offchain. They run their own they run their own bots, their own keepers, their own liquidation systems. It's it's not about trying to do it onchain anymore. Um it shifted more and more offchain.

And then lastly, you know, immutability used to be a feature. nowadays I think it's a bug um in that it doesn't because because now if if you combine all of this so you combine a new base that are looking at these things as an investment vehicle and no longer as a utility based thing you are looking at teams that have to run more and more of their own infrachain which means you know there's there's there's AWS or Google or Herz or wherever you're hosting but but there's bills to pay right I mean apps Again, back in the original DeFi, you know, you'd throw up a UI on IPFS. People

would access it remotely. You you wouldn't be hosting servers and infront stuff. I mean, the original year ran entirely on chain. The there was no off-chain server. There was nothing. The only thing I paid for was the domain name. >> So, that won't work nowadays because people need that extra usability. They need that access. They need that support channel. And and the second you need to provide all of these second order functions that it's not just smart contracts you the the team needs to be appropriately incentivized. You know you need to be able to pay salaries. People need to be able to stay on board understand the vision and want to see the vision beyond you know a two-year

vesting term. >> Um so I think it's drastically changed. I I I I don't think it's comparable at all. And that's why technically I'm actually a little bit against even still calling it DeFi because I don't think we're anywhere close to DeFi. I I generally when I talk to people I call it onchain finance if I do call it anything >> which is closer you know cuz cuz it's it's normal finance. It's just we we we do things onchain. >> That's the big difference. >> Yeah. We call we call it neo finance which is effectively the same thing because it's not decentralized. You're absolutely right. It takes there are certain functions that take place onchain and then there's a whole amalgamation of functions that take place offchain and users are just okay

with it now because a of a combination of things people have gotten burned right as a result of just code is law and not knowing any better and also the cohort of people coming in you know they rely on some of the functionality that they've become accustomed to and the consumer behavior calls for you know customer support channels and forgot password buttons and and and these sorts of things. And so these are the design principles that they've come to expect. And I think, you know, maybe there has been this, you know, kind of this acceptance rather than, you know, trying to beat the drum and explain decentralization to people and expecting them to come to us and learn and adopt our our principles. We've decided, no,

we're going to meet people where they are for the benefit of the adoption of this technology. We're going to build with their consumer behavior in mind and we're going to, you know, make the design choices that, you know, maybe sacrifice a little bit our on our own principles, but um, you know, as a whole, everyone is somewhat better off because something is better than nothing. >> In principle, agree. Yeah. I I I think the the gap comes in that we still have a lot of actors trying to sell >> it as if it's decentralized finance, you know, as if your counterparty risk is only the smart contract. And I think that

disconnect is where the risk comes in. It's because I I I mean a perfect example is is is this new generation of curated vaults, right? Like like they would have you believe that the trust assumptions is the same as the old 2020 year vaults as an example >> where where there your counterparty was only the smart contract and the downstream you know wherever it was a compound etc. Um, nowadays it's still happening onchain, but your counterparty is a curator. It's offchain. It's potentially a credit facility. It's potentially some non-liquidatable onchain RWA or

some IOU. But if if you go and deposit in that vault, it's still kind of being presented as your counterpart is just a smart contract. Mhm. >> Um, >> yeah. >> So, and and and and the same is true for for tokens, right? So, I mean, if if you were to have a publicly listed token somewhere, there are very specific requirements in terms of disclosures, compliance, public audits, these kinds of things that are required. And we're trying to play in that space, but at the same time, we're still kind of avoiding

that level of reporting and transparency etc. So now and and don't get me wrong I I don't think generally speaking it comes from a place of malice. I think it's a transitionary period that we're currently in where it is the old DeFi engineers that are now building fullyfledged businesses and it's just going to take time. Yeah, >> but I I do think there is a little bit of a disconnect in terms of what is being presented versus what it actually is.

>> Yeah, I I I think that's right. And so I I mean, you mentioned, you know, some of these curated vaults as an example, and you know, I'm sure we can dig into more of those, but I I'd love to dig into Flying Tulip as well. in terms of, you know, how you've been able to, you know, build Flying Tulip in such a way that you've attempted to, you know, make the most of these design choices because, you know, you're right, we're not in this DeFi purist, you know, uh, era anymore. And we're also in this transitionary period where we don't have full, you know, clarity, you know, regulation in the US or just full market structure, regulatory clarity. And so there's sort of this transitionary phase

and it's still trust me it's it's not as bad as you know the Gary Gendler era in the US but you know we we've still got a long way to go as well and so you know when it when it comes to some of these design choices um and let's you know just >> uh for the sake of honing in and and and you know understanding stick to the lending and the vault space maybe you could just first give us a general understanding of flying tulip and then we'll get into the design choices that you've made and maybe how you see the the vault space and how you've been able to, you know, observe and implement some of these learnings in into the product.

the the product itself, the the the suite of protocols that Flying Tulip really is is most simplistically it is the it's it's the composability of a lending market that can directly feed into an order book so that it offers you know trading and leverage that can directly feed into derivatives insurance.

Um, and then we have our settlement layer, which is our native stable coin, the flying tulip USD. Um, it it it almost makes more sense why it exists and why it is the way it is. If you if you go back to again the premise of original DeFi the original contracts one immutable two because there was no direct teams involved there weren't any fee extractions you know again using the original urine vaults it took zero fees so it's it was easy to build on those protocols because you knew the code was

going to stay the way it was and you knew that there weren't fees. Nowadays, you know, you you've got unis swap v2 v3 v4, you've got a v3, [clears throat] v4. There's there's almost always and and they have to because you know they've become proper companies. So they need to a be able to continuously upgrade and deploy new systems and b be able to charge fees because they have to pay the people who are supporting these things. But that essentially killed composability cuz that meant cuz I could build a margin trading system on top of a cuz all

you're actually doing is le let's say I want to I want to 10x leverage long BTC. What I'm what what what you would do is you would take a flash loan out of USDC. You would then on whatever trading venue you could, let's say unis swap, you would trade the USDC to wrapped BTC. I would deposit that wrapped BTC into a I would then borrow that amount of USDC and repay the flash loan. Now I have a 10x margin position in a but there's no incentive for anyone else to build that

because the the fees are all going to a and if a then later on upgrades their system then same problem right I have to now redeploy and rebuild the whole system. So a lot of these features that we've combined in terms of composability is really just because the base layer which is in in the permission world the base layer is the is the lending market. In the in the in the non-permission world it's actually the AMM which is an interesting distinction. Um it needs to be aware of all of the things that's going to be built on top of it. not not necessarily in a it is already built methodology but

at least in a terms of I am building in such a open way that these things could in future integrate into me um and and and that's that's also a design element that's you really don't see nowadays in onchain finance anymore because everyone is kind of building to protect their moat which also makes sense because it's businesses now right >> so you're not really building with other people are going to build on top of me in mind anymore. I I I think those those those days are largely >> done.

>> But that left a massive gap, right? Cuz cuz one thing and and this is actually something I wrote about many many half a decade ago at this point, which was back then called Dairy Swap, derivative swap. It was just one medium article and it was just a concept, but then Gensler came in and kind of ruined all chances of launching new stuff. So, as you say, the space is definitely better off. Um, but the concept was simple. The concept was why can't idle liquidity sitting inside of a lending market at at the user's choice be deployed into a into a um single-sided liquidity position or if it is already in a AMM, why can't the liquidity not being used in the AMM be

deployed to a lending market? You know, and and we've sort of seen people try to do that, right? because you'll have again using AVA and unis swap as the example nothing stops someone from going to unis swap and launching a a USDT a wtc which is ava USDT and our wrapped BTC pair and depositing that into the pool. The general problem there is that if I as a user rock land on unis swap's front end and I want to trade BTC to USDT, the engine doesn't know that a WBT2C and a USDT actually represent the underlying assets because it only sees the

tokenized version. Now aggregators have done a lot of work to be able to integrate those custom roots, but now I'm already talking about so many hops, right? like I first have to go to Ava deposit the stuff then to unis swap then get the stuff then an aggregator then set up this raft and and it it if we were on that original sort of immutable and fearless and composable world you wouldn't need to do it that way right it it should be as easy as a tickbox that says yeah cool I want to opt in my liquidity for this and and that's the opportunity that's always existed that I've always been like yearning to exploit Um, and and that's where we're at now, right? Is is we've we've we've started

with the margin accounts. That's that's and and now I'm probably getting a little bit too much into the weeds of the >> No, no, this is this is great. This is great. >> But but another thing, for example, is is LTV does its job well in old decentralized markets. So, our our lending market, and I'm even hesitant to call it a lending market. I I generally prefer to it as margin accounts. Our margin accounts use an equitybased system similar to a margin account on an exchange would. So, so it compares the equity of your account, you know, that takes into account your P&L,

that takes into account if you have netted assets like staked E versus E, um, staked Salana versus Salana, that that takes all of these extra things into account, which gives you a much more robust position than just LTV cuz just off of LTV and and and this originally actually started because USDE, Athena, um, which is the first time I even started discovering about you know delta neutral yield farming essentially but but [snorts] I I was always frustrated that you can't do what Afina does offchain onchain and the more I tried to kind of discover why it's because you

can't due to the nature of loan to value LTV you can't hedge your delta away because if if my staked E is 90% LTV, there's always that 10% margin I can't get rid of. So, it has to be 100 to 100. And you can't do that with LTV, but you can do that with equity based accounts. So, you know, there's there are also a plethora of these more granular innovations that I think as a whole are also a step forward in the industry. Um, another small thing, you know, is when we do a trade on our own system,

it doesn't just hit our order book. It automatically creates a RFQ order, and that RFQ order goes out and hunts the entire blockchain for liquidity. So, if it can give that user that wants to facilitate that trade a better quote somewhere else, we want to give them that quote. >> Mhm. because it's too often that, you know, if you go onto the specific AMM's website and you do a trade, you're just going to be trading against their pools and and that that's that's not necessarily what the user wants. Now, that does it gets fixed again because the responsibility is kind of shifted onto the aggregator, but but at the same time, it shouldn't need to. Um, there are lots of these little micro

innovations we can go through. Another one I'm really proud of is actually that our liquidation system itself is RFQ based. So, it's not just, you know, you repay the debt, you get to get a chunk of the of the collateral. It's, hey, here's the collateral. You're an RFQ goes out. Give me a bid. And whatever the best bid is is what ends up getting sold. So, I mean, we've had it's unfortunately bad market. So, there's been a lot of liquidations on the system. And almost always our bad debt are well the liquidatable debt, not bad debt, the liquidatable debt is repaid dollar for dollar without a haircut to the user. You know, it's it's small, but these little things add up. Mhm.

>> Umh but look, all all Flying Chulip >> mission statement really is is that there is no reason that every blockchain, whether it's a layer 1 or a layer 2, shouldn't be a fully featured centralized exchange. Right? If you go log into Binance, Coinbase, Kraken, whatever else right now, you can do lending, you can do yield vaults, you can do spot trading, you can do margin trading, you can do hedging. And and and that's the mission statement, right?

It's having the central entry point where you can deposit funds and then offer you all of these features while giving you the best yield, capital efficiency, and composability. Because again, something simple, right? If you can place a limit order on our spot system, that limit order of yours is earning yield because it's in the margin account being lent out on the other side. So there there's never a point where your capital isn't put better to work. But anyway, I'm feeling a little bit too pitchy now and >> this was not the goal.

>> I I understand. And I think well I think you're you're also talking about design choices in general that these chains are making and I think you know you've gone and decided and build in in this direction with flying tulip but you know the most the most recent example of this is mega ETH right they they sunset their mega mafia cohort right of third party applications their incubator that they were doing and now you know they're they're going and building firstparty applications which is you know uh what what you say every chain is going to end up doing whether it's an L1 or and L2 uh with some of these features in mind because ultimately we've learned you know through so many of these chains these are the primitives that people want and it just makes sense that we have a more composable world of each of

these functions on each of these chains I and we uh you know I I want to get into the stable coin element of Flying Tulip. It's something that you didn't talk very much about but it's a core component and this is our stable coin segment on the show. So I want to talk about that. uh be before we do I just want to close the loop on one thing that you mentioned earlier which was an interesting point. You mentioned how the core base of these composable systems in the traditional world was typically the lending market and I think that was mostly because of the margining profile and you were able to run and now you've actually implemented this equity margin like account on flying tulip. Um and that's sort of you know the base account that gives way to most of these features but on chain in the past it had been

these AMMs right and so I'm just curious about the distinction. Why was it the case that it was AMMs and why did you choose to include this equity provisioning account on flying tulip more akin to the traditional world than the onchain native world? >> So well the answer there is that it's still both. So so within flying tulip itself we have two distinct verticals. We have our permissioned set which is the one we launched first because it's easier to control. So the benefit of the permission set is that it's cross collateral. So I can onboard BTC, E, USDC all in the same margin account. The

problem with that is every time you add an asset, you are implicitly exposing the entire existing book to that same asset. Um, and that's true for, you know, any crossc collateral system. Every time A adds a new collateral asset, it's automatically exposed to the entire book. And and we've unfortunately seen the downsides of that um in the in the but but that means it can't work in the permissionless market, right? Cuz I don't want to >> Sorry, >> you're referencing like Kelp Dow and like how you know just the RS state ETH expose like potentially the entire ETH book on a and these sorts of things.

Well unfortunately um, >> now now don't get me wrong. I I I don't think that was a a bad onboarding choice or curation choice or anything of that. I'm I'm just saying that the second you onboard these assets, you are implicitly exposing your entire credit facility to them and and that hurts other depositors. >> Yeah. Um but now let's say someone wants to you know come launch a new token and they of course can't automatically be part of that crossc collateral margin. So our permission so so the permission set the first entry point is the lending market on the permissionless set the first entry point is actually still the AMM

>> because >> Mhm. If it's a new token, you have a few problems. Problem number one, it doesn't have an oracle. So, I can't just pull, you know, something from Chainlink or or Redstone or or even just coin gecko, right? And sign it and post it on chain. So, so I don't have that to work with. Thing number two is I don't know things like liquidatable depth or what kind of trade facility or I should offer or or how I should quote this asset even. Um, so for all of the but you can solve each one of those pain points individually through the AMM itself.

>> Yeah. >> So our our permissionless markets start with you launch your normal AMM which is two pairs, right? That's just your asset and ETH or your asset and USDC or your FSET and whatever else. this as that starts trading it starts building up your oracle data which is your TWAP your time weighted average price >> and then it also starts building up something that I always found lacking in this space and it's something I actually included in the original um V33 designs all of those all of those V33 protocols actually all have this but I haven't seen any of them use them yet um and

it's something I TW, which is time weighted average reserves. Because if if something is priced at $3, but I can only sell >> $1 of it because there's only that much liquidity, then its price being $3 isn't actually its price. Its actual price is how much can I sell this for. >> So more important to me in the DeFi space was time, weighted, average reserve. Now all AMMs have a have a A and a B reserve. So that's the number I actually want to want because that number means that at any snapshot in time I can ask the AMM, hey, how much can I liquidate this position for? Now

normally you'd assume, hey, I can just, you know, ask it in real time. Why do I need to keep this historic metric? But that's unfortunately the world we live in with flash loans and LP manipulation means that you can never ask a question in real time. You always have to have historical snapshot of a question. And even if you do ask in real time, I need to be able to compare to some historical point that I can see is this a good reading, is this a bad reading, is someone manipulating. But the question you need to answer is how much can I sell? And the reason if you work back from that question, the the implicit question to that one is how much can I liquidate? So we actually end up using the the time weighted average reserve output to see what kind

of LTV I can offer the user cuz now the same AMM pair let's say it's it's X and USDT. Now that same pair facilitates lending. So the user can provide their X as collateral and borrow their USDT and their LTV is based on their X position relative to the pool. So it's not a fixed value. It's not you have a 50%. It's if you're if you're a very small bit of the pool, you get a very high LTV because your impact is low. If you're a big part, you get a low one. And inversely, >> um the next thing you need is interest rate models because you don't have that.

So the other thing that these AMM pools track is the the the moving averages and the volatility. Okay, >> the moving averages and the volatility also influence the the curve at which we quote the price. So assets that are are completely flat in terms of volatility are priced on the X3Y curve, which means it's basically a stable coin. um the more higher that volatility is, the more it veers towards the traditional unis swap um XY and then anything in between it allows for and and this curve in itself I also need it because it facilitates forex trades because stable swaps or XY don't really

work for forex trades because it's low volatility but it's not no volatility. So that also sits on this curve. So this curve the the pricing between the reserves is also influenced by the volatility and the moving average. The interest rate is also because in in the lending world you really have two interest rate models. You have volatile, you have three. You have volatile, you have major and then you have stable. Um and that's again answered by volatility and your moving day average. Um so now I can offer lending and I can already offer trading. I have all the data points I need to be able to set up these positions. And then the last thing you can do from that is you use the work

from from GMX and their GLP to to allow that same LP to be the counterparty for derivatives as well. So that you can take a long or a short against that position. And because you already have the the lending market built in, now you can do leveraged positions as well. Um so so when when it comes to pure to pure >> permissionless >> single asset pair permissionless so anyone can launch this on their own you know they don't need to interact with us at any given point in time then your your starting base is still the AM and I don't think that's ever going to change because that's that's all of your data.

Yeah, I mean this is fascinating stuff like h how you essentially you're given you know a single you know primitive and and you know single is maybe a little bit too too far you know you've got a couple of these different interest rate models you've got a couple of different AMM models right but from those base equations you're able to build this entire suite of functionality from the AMM you're able to build the lending market you're able to build the LP market and the per market all from this single AMM and you're able to do it in such a permissionless way.

>> Only qualification I I'll make there, you know, is is it it's not a pure per. It's closer to a pre-market per cuz the pure pers funding is obviously influenced between your external oracle price and your mark price. Here you don't have it. So your funding is actually closer to open interest. You know how much of how much are long versus short and then long space short. So it functions like these pre-market IPO burps. >> That's that's one small qualification I'll need to make. But but other than that it it functions you know. >> I mean that's also been the benchmark for you know these low liquidity early stage perpetualist markets like that is the same way that all these other markets tend to work. It's only just after you know they do go IPO they have

some sort of liquid market price that's external to the to the book. you know, then you bring in that Oracle price as a means of sort of smoothing out what would otherwise be a rather, you know, uh, uh, funky, you know, Oracle price because it's internal. Um, yeah, Andre, that I mean, that's fascinating stuff. I I I really enjoyed just kind of walking through these things, uh, with you and how you were able to illustrate the difference in building the per the their the permissioned stack versus the permissionless stack. So, makes a ton of sense. Um, I want to be conscious of your time, but I also want to get into the stable coin side of this. Um, you know, we talked a little bit around stable swaps and these sorts of things for low volatility pairs. Um, but maybe

you could just talk about the Flying Tulip USD, you know, why it's such an important part of the overall system. Um, and and you know, generally, you know, how you foresee this growing as a core component to the book. Um I I I I think everyone will agree with the statement that we have seen stable coins are the primary settlement layer and liquidity of almost every single big system we have. Um the the original premise as I said came from Athena's USD. It was looking for, hey, how can I >> do this leveraged delta neutral play

onchain with LSTs because I also wanted to broaden it from just if you know I want to I I we we obviously do SD E on Ethereum and SDSS on Sonic, but I want to do Lista, BNB, BNB on BSC, you know, I want to do um Hydrax Ax on Avalanche. Each one obviously has its own and and very often even even if you do these things in a centralized fashion very often you can't because that staking asset doesn't really count as as collateral on most of these exchanges margin accounts. So there there isn't really a way to do

that proper hedge. So that was from the outset kind of where we wanted to start with the stable coin is how can we do this leveraged deltaneutral tokenization of the staking yield. Um and and and we couldn't that's ultimately what it came down to we we needed something that you could properly hedge the position. So LTV was out right from the bat and that started influencing you know sort of we first looked at LTV but with standard netting so that within the config you could say this asset is netted against that asset. So if they are which which it kind of looks similar to to to aves emode um but

you're still not going to hit 100%. You're going to hit 99 or something similar and you need to be able to hit 100% to properly hedge your position. Um so we built the equity market >> which is one of the reasons why we use the equity margin account and so our margin accounts always allow that that play. >> Then the the other rationale of the stable coin was as a mechanism for scaling. So it's normally pretty easy to get any given blockchain's native asset in a large amount because there's a lot of liquidity for the native asset. So it's not hard to get a lot of people wanting to deposit because there's also not a lot of yield opportunities for native assets. So it's generally fairly easy to attract especially when you

start talking to some of these digital asset treasuries and foundations and things you know they have a lot to deploy. >> So we can get that easily enough. Now the other thing you need is in to your lending market a stable coin liquidity. >> Oh so maybe one thing one one this will make a lot more sense. I should have actually started with that. So with something like Athena's USD, you know, they're they're what they are tokenizing is staked ETH as margin collateral and that's earning you 2.4%. >> And then they are taking out the the perpetual so the derivative short and then they collect that funding rate which is for argument sake four to 5%.

It it's currently I don't think it's currently >> oh it is probably still positive. um and and then minus fees and settlement and all of those things. So you end up with a delta around like four to six%. >> Um our lending market is not a per market. It the pers are getting activated later on and then we will still do that standard trade but for now how we do it is we we use the USDC and the USDT that is deposited into flying tulip USD and that becomes collateral. So that becomes what we borrow the ETH against and then we swap the ETH to staked ETH and then the staked ETH becomes collateral as well. So the staked E and the ETH are still hedged but it's grossly overcolateralized due

to the USDT and the USDC and that allows us to to leverage that loop as much as you know there is available deposits but that means we're not we're earning the 2.4% 4% from the the the state E and that can safely be looped up to about eight times with this design. So we don't we're currently at about 1.5 because we don't want to push the system too hard too quick and it also depends on available liquidity but you can um so that already will give you so 2.4 but you're still minus about 2.1ish for every E that you borrow. So you net about.3 which that then at a eight times loop you know you end up it it's not 20 30%

but it's still decent numbers and then you know the the 3.2 to 4% that you're earning on the stable coins and that gives you of your net of around like 11 to 12%. Um so that's how that delta neutral loop looks and that's actually different than you know the standard derivativebased one. Um, so the the flying tulip USD is almost a little bit of a Trojan horse in terms of liquidity as well because people deposit because they want to get the yield. By depositing, they're offering more stable coin liquidity. Now, our margin account has the two most important things it needs. It has stable coin liquidity and it has the native asset. Almost all trades on any blockchain >> happen in either stable coin or its

native asset. So by having a lot of those two, we can start offering very competitive trade rates in the spot or the margin or the RFQ. Um so we start on boarding those assets. More people do the margin trades which means they borrow out more of the money. Interest rates go up that influences the interest rate on flying tulip USD. So its interest rate goes up. It attracts more deposits and then the kind of flywheel starts kicking in together with that. Um and that's even before PERS are activated. Once pers are activated then you know we'll do the standard carry as well as a secondary trade while it's positive.

Um but further you know something like our total return swaps or any of our derivatives is also settled in flying tulip USD and that's because we can do instant settlement with it if we can mint and redeem at any given point to close the trade and then once the underlying is settled you know we can burn again or mint again depending on which way we have to go. So having that sort of mint and redeemability also gives that instantaneous settlement on the derivatives and things like the total return swaps which is important.

But then generally speaking, you know, we also just want to offer the flying tulip USD as a as a ARB layer for once for once it is the base pair of more of our assets cuz if we can if we can increase supply or contract supply based on mint and burn at any given point in time, we can always take that ARB as well and provide that profit to the user since we won't have fees on it. And then lastly, your standard CDP model, you know, allowing people to mint against it. But that's just another interest rate source of people paying so that we can just diversify all of the yield opportunities on the flying jud.

Um, but as you can see, you know, it's a touch point everywhere. It's it's a touch point for lending. It's a touch point for trading. It's a touch point for derivative. It's a touch point for all of your trade settlements. So building building that as an attractive offering is is your liquidity layer for your entire system, you know, and and and that's something that's something you see with with um all all of these per markets, right? Like like they always have these big whether it's HLP or LLP or or or or any of these other derivatives. Um they always have this one big stable coin vault and >> you can do so much more with that. you know, there's so many more opportunities that you can place against that and that

also hedges you against, you know, potentially when you've taken too many bad trades or there's a bad liquidation or a bad oracle feed or something like that. >> So, so [clears throat] it's it's I mean I'm I'm I'm hesitant to use statements like this, but you know, it ends up being sort of the lifeblood of the entire system because you need it running through all of these parts. >> Yeah. And it it's also the, you know, the jet fuel, the initial gasoline to get the thing off the ground initially because you walked through mathematically how it it is possible to develop these components and stack them again permission stack, permissionless stack. It is possible to create the the

functionality from these core components. But of course, if there's no liquidity running through these systems, then what's the good of the system? and and so you walk through how important the liquidity in the system is to the system as a whole and how the stable coin helps to stimulate not only the initial liquidity but it helps to perpetuate the liquidity as well as the system continues to grow. So it it is you know obviously crucial to the system as a whole. Um and it's also I correct me if I'm wrong here but it also seems to be the the value acrruel the destination for a lot of the things a lot of the yield sources these things tend to go towards so because it's a touch point for all these things it also

tends to be like sort of this rewards or yield accumulation layer where a lot of that value tends to occur. 100%. I mean, if if there's if there's settlement fees in the derivatives, it goes there. If there's liquidation fees, it goes there. If there's trade fees, it goes there. If there's lending interest, it goes there. Um, so it and and again, it's kind of like I called it at the start, it's kind of the liquidity Trojan horse for the entire system because it ends up having all of these different touch points. Uh, and and I think we've seen that everywhere, right? like like the lending markets that survives are the ones that attract a lot of stable coin liquidity.

The trade venues that survives are that have a healthy stable coin order book. The biggest derivative platforms have the biggest um stable coin LPS. So it's it's directly correlated to how much depth can I offer, how much volume can I offer, how much how many options can I offer to my user. Um, and at the same time, you know, I think also having it have all of these different touch point also massively diversifies its risk because now you don't just have the single, you know, my my only counterparty isn't just per trades, right? Because I know even if something goes wrong there, there there's a certain amount of just USDC,

USDT sitting in lending that's, you know, has a much safer risk profile. Um, stable coins are so important, man. I mean, I' i'd argue that's probably one of the best innovations of crypto as a whole. >> Yeah. Um, I mean, there's this is the last question I got for you and it's a wild card. The we've got the chat here because we are live and so people are they're they're loving your appearance and so we've got this this uh this question here in the chat that I'm going to ask you. Um, and you're right. I mean, stable coins are extremely important. We've seen that, you know, as a result of their growth now with, you know, Robin Hood chain and these sorts of things. People are saying, "Oh, you know what? Tkenized equities are an even

bigger opportunity than stable coins." Um, so we'll, you know, we'll we'll see how that plays out. Similar question here. And I, this is a wild card question. I just I but I want to I want to, you know, give you give you a chance to sort of address this. Travel Wings in the chat here says, "Will institution institutional capital institutions seriously look at flying tulip? I think retail is done with Andre." Look, I I just I want to give you a chance to just address, you know, the the perception that people may have of sort of like your journey because look, I understand the the depth and breadth that you've had in this space and and obviously, you know, this is an a feat of um incredible

development work that you've done building this system and walking walking through it. I really really do appreciate you walking through it here today. And just to address you know the what some people might be thinking out there. So given this given this sentiment like what how how do you respond to you know this kind of this question right around retail sentiment and institutional sentiment when you know these they're looking at something like flying tulip. >> The only thing that matters is does it offer better riskadjusted yield? Does it offer more features than I get somewhere else? or is it cheaper? Capital doesn't care.

>> Mhm. >> So, I don't think there's much to address there. I'd say the only thing I would address there is that the the the little circle jerk of CT narrative is very very different than what's actually happening out there in the real world. Um interest is big. There's lots of conversations, but what it comes down to is is it cheaper? Is it safer? Does it reward better? And that's all that matters. Travel Wings, I hope you got the answer to your question there. Capital doesn't care. Uh Andre, man, really really appreciate you taking the time today. I know we went a little bit over time. I really do appreciate um you know, just kind of very methodically walking through some of the questions here and explaining the way that you've you've

built this system, you know, the lessons that you've learned from previous projects and how you've implemented this. And uh very excited for the growth story of Flying Tulip um to see how this plays out over time. And uh man, I'd love to have you back on in a in a couple of months again. and uh get a get another, you know, temperature check on how things are going. >> Yeah, always happy to and thanks for having me. Always like talking about this stuff. >> Absolutely. Appreciate learning about it. Uh we'll see you again soon. Thanks, Andre. >> Thanks, boss. >> All right, that has been Andre Cone, uh the man, the myth, the legend, DeFi OG, and uh he is not stopping building. I think that is one thing for sure.

um flying tulip.com. You guys can go there. It's live now. Uh he talked about some of the features that are going to continue to be built. Perpetuals is is going to be activated soon is one thing that he mentioned. Also, uh I have you know doubledigit rates uh that are that are currently in production. So uh stablecoin is the lifeblood of the system and uh all of the value acrruel. I mean you you heard liquidation fees, settlement fees, you heard HL uh uh you know the liquidity provider fees, all of these things, you know, built from the ground up both on the permission side in in the you know the equity lending side as well as the permission list built up from the AMM. Um look, I mean there's

tons of potential here. Andre has done this before. He knows what it takes and so I wouldn't be surprised if he does it again. uh flying.com. You guys can go over there, get playing around with the system, learn how it works, reference this video to really really understand it uh and keep tabs because there are opportunities out there in the DeFi space uh that will continue to be uh available. Um guys, I think that is going to wrap up our show for today. Yeah, new type in the chat said, "What a Chad answer. Love Andre Freedom guy in the chat. People trying to hide the truth in reality.

Freedom guy is always going on about freedom and freedom of speech. Love it. Um, Travel Wings. Hope that answers your question. Beef.HL. Hypermeat. What a username. My question is, how long will he stick with this project before moving on to something else? His history is pretty colorful. I mean, look guys, these things are permissionless. These things are immutable. These things are continuing to live. I mean, you know, we've seen I mean, I can speak from first uh first principles here. My uh you know, we've done some angel investing in the space and uh I think we did something like 50 or 60 projects. Got a handful of zeros out there never to be heard from again.

So, these guys, you know, they uh they just dip, right? Uh something that I can say for Andre is that not only did he actually deliver real tech, but the tech is still real. It's still in development. I was just looking at YFI when uh when he was on the show here and uh let's see, it was still like top 300. I mean, it carried something like a hundred million dollar market cap. So, these things still exist, right? It's not like these things are zeros.

What else we got? I think that's going to wrap us up here, guys. appreciate you rocking with us. Uh we're going to get Andre back in a couple months. He's going to answer some more. I think uh Flying Tulip is uh upwards of 5 million, continuing to expand, add more features as it goes. Wouldn't be surprised if uh if that thing gets some serious TVL. Oh my god. New type in Nisha. Oh my god. Oh boy. Don't get me started.

Oh man. Yeah, we uh the good idea ventures portfolio is uh it's in it's in quite a spot. But uh we did do plasma, we did do etherf. Etherfi is carrying the portfolio right now in terms of the angels. And then obviously the liquid portfolio is cooking. Uh what is what is the liquid market doing right now? Let's take a look. Yeah, you're in Finance. Gotta get that off the screen there. I like uh I like Zcash to flip. Urine Finance.

Zcash at 550. Man, I just I don't own enough Zcash. Uh Bitcoin with a nice little bounce. ETH looking like it's turning around. Guys, I think we're going to rally into the weekend. I mean, market was a bit bearish on Trump's uh press release, press conference last night. Still mad at myself for buying Initia new tight. You and me both, buddy. Oh boy. Yeah, Digi, appreciate you sticking around, man. Thanks for hosting. Much love, guys. We're going to close out. Uh I think the market's going to turn around for us. Uh this has been the last uh last show of the week. This has been Friday. Hope you guys have a

happy Friday. We're going into the weekend. Pray for weekend pumps. The equities market seems like it's holding up. I think we're going to be okay. I think memory is going to come back. I don't see cracks in the in the equities market or the NASDAQ like people are calling for. I'm not a doomer. I think we're going to be okay. Just stay diligent. Stay strong. Uh and survive these market conditions. We are in the transition into the pre-bull. Okay. So, it goes bare, pre-bull, then bull. We are transitioning out of bare into pre-bull. Just stay with us. Build positions. Stay in spot. Build positions in spot. This market is going to rally.

It's just a matter of time, guys. Stay strong. Appreciate you coming and rocking with us. Uh, new type. Yeah, we did indeed. Drink their juice hard. We were sipping the Kool-Aid. Freedom guy, you're the man. Don't get banned again. We want you sticking around, man. We're freedom of speech. We're big libertarians out here as well. Weekend rally would be incredible. Give us a pre-bull. Give us a sign of life. Guys, have a great weekend. We will see you next time Monday early. Much love. It's been the roll up. Peace.

[music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music]

>> Everything. [music] [music] >> [music] >> Everything. [music] [music] Everything.

[music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

[music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

>> Heat. [music] Heat. [music] >> [music] >> Everything. [music] [music]

[music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> Everything. [music] [music]

[music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. [music] [music]

Heat. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Everything. [music]

[music] [music] Everything. [music] [music] [music] >> [music]

[music] [music] [music] >> Everything. [music] [music] >> [music]

>> Hey, [music] hey hey. [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music]

[music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

>> Everything. [music] [music] Heat. [music] [music] Heat. >> [music] >> Everything.

[music] [music] >> [music] >> Everything. [music] [music] [music]

>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

[music] [music] [music] [music] [music]