🚨LIVE: CLARITY Imminent?! Summer Bounce Continues! WisdomTree In The Tower, Alpaca & Strive Call In

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[music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> Thank you.

Lord [music] [music] we'll see you around the timeline. Feels good to be back. >> I think The Rollup is one of the [music] most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite [music] podcast. >> Adding it to my library every >> potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Dev Connect [music] day one here. You guys see the face?

[music] [music] Heat. [music] [music] Heat.

[music] >> [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say.

I'm bullish. >> HE SAID IT. HE FINALLY SAID IT. So bullish. Andy's bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat.

>> [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Hey. Hey. Hey.

>> [music] >> Roll up is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the rollup. [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

[music] [music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. >> That's a bleep, but it also it >> Yes, sir. Clarity act imminent. Will we get it? Who knows? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the rollup. You're watching here at Tuesday, the

tokenization tower. As always, guys, live from the financial capital of the world. >> Robbie, another great show ahead. How you doing? >> Yes, doing great. Doing great. Uh, good morning to everyone out there. >> Good afternoon. Feeling good. The market is bouncing. All I see is this is just a little bounce before we get another leg lower and then everyone's going to buy the bottom at exactly 50K exactly on October one year from the top and we're going to do it the same time that we always do and to me that sounds like this rally will fail like all the others that sounds like pure disbelief on the timeline and I am watching intently as how this plays out. How are you?

>> I would have to agree. I feel like it is this rally will fail like the others vibes which is a dangerous mindset to be in but a conservative one. Uh the more dangerous mindset would be lever up to the tits and this the bottoms in no stop loss you know like being aggressive you know you don't need to you don't need to do either. We've just keep preaching the way that we've made money in these markets over the last six years is the same way. I mean, we've lost money on pers. We've lost money on um trying to uh you know, buy in size or trade short time frames. What you do is you buy spot. You buy spot in good trends. You hold for multiple months, multiple years. I'm currently looking at having a

long conversation with Claude last night. Fable five. I paid an extra couple bucks on the company card to really get some premium intelligence, Rob. Um, and I was just thinking about like, you know, maximizing tax planning for this cycle, right? Such that like, all right, we're in the end of 2026 almost. What positions can we put on in size that we're bullish on and hold them for over a year over, you know, >> because obviously you want long-term cap gains rather than the short term. >> And then any bare market losses, >> only a few coins that fall into that category >> and and any bare market losses from this year, right? So, short-term capital gains, you know, I have a couple bad trades. They those will become carry forward losses, but they only will take

away they they will be carried over at the um long-term rate. So, let's say you lost 100K this year on short-term trading, but then you make 300K on a trade that's a long-term capital gain. You would think that that 100K would just take out 100K straight off the top of that 30% or sorry, of that 300. It's not how it works. takes about 60% of it. Uh because it is it is a carry forward loss at the long-term rate, not the short-term rate. Anyway, nuances, but I was just doing a bit of planning. Um and yeah, I agree, Rob. Probably a couple coins there that are like uh that are there. How's the chat looking?

>> I mean, it's the same coins preaching. It's fundamentals, it's AI, and it's privacy. Uh and then you've got a couple coins that actually fit into multiple buckets, and we're especially excited about those, guys. Great show for you guys today as always. Let's get into it. Today's topics are presented by Treasure, >> the hardware wallet uh doing tremendous things. Uh I'm excited these guys have rolled out um natural signing so you can actually understand what you're signing uh just before AI tells us what we're signing. So I feel like we're going to get this on multiple fronts. Uh markets and weather as always that tokenization tower that LCROY that Andy's drinking is powered by Plume as is the tokenization

tower >> and we're going to get the head of BD at Wisdom Tree into the tower today. >> Yes, very institutional. We have a very institutional professional state of the industry daytoday. Alpaca, billion-dollar valuation, Strive, massive Bitcoin company doing, you know, huge treasury things and a accumulation. And then you've got, yeah, Wisdom Tree, which is obviously a large asset manager, uh, one of the largest of the up and cominging ones of the last century. AB Khan, good morning. Good to see you. Have a great day. Good morning.

One arm bandit, good morning. Uh, new type got out of Tao at 180. Got in at 188. Just closed my 10x long on tow. Again, that is not the strategy that we preach here on the rollup, but congrats, buddy. Hope you buy your girlfriend something nice. Virtuals is bouncing hella nice on the weekly. What's up? Uh, the USA would be the crypto capital of the world. All right, people are fired up, Rob. Um, let's keep it rolling into the weather, the markets, and get into the news. I know this is what you guys want to hear about. Before we do, let me tell you about Fracks, our stable coin partner. Building infrastructure for the future of digital money, open, stable, borderless. Start using the future digital money atfra.com today, guys.

It's 78. It's overcast. It's a nice summer day in New York. Honestly, I was expecting it to be a lot hotter in New York in July. I'm not going to be spending that much time here in the coming weeks to months. Well, in the at least in the coming weeks. Um, as always, weather powered by our friends at Relay. Visit relay.link. Some of the best crosschain swaps in the market. Let's get into the markets. Let's hear Rob's take on the markets. Before we do, let me tell you about dinari. Building infrastructure for tokenized US equities and bringing real world stocks on chain. Visit dinari.com to trade more. Dubious rationale regulated crypto rails. Yes, sir. That is where the industry is going. It's going institutional. Rob, what do you say? I mean, Bitcoin is above 66 almost 665 here. It breached

the 665 mark, but everything else is just sort of flat to down. I find this a fascinating development. You know, we sort of were thinking about, okay, everything moving in unison up versus down. Do we get a leg lower or is this the disbelief rally that turns into the new trend? And we didn't really carve out part of that thesis for what relative strength looks like and where that might come from. It seems to be coming from Bitcoin or you can also just say this is coming from majors. If you're looking at, you know, ETH and some of the other Salana is also doing quite well, but obviously this is being led by Bitcoin. Uh there's fractures in the equities markets. I think um it's something to think through. We can have

a deeper conversation maybe later in the show about why Bitcoin might be separating from the pack and alts the alt complex may not be uh following suit. What do you think? >> Yeah, I think it's aligned with your uh this rally will fail like all others thesis, but I just think as soon as we get a little bit of consolidation, we get a little bit of because like once you get these levels broken, people start to their minds flip to like being a bit more risky. And once that happens, you know, it doesn't take but four hours for alts to outperform Bitcoin on a day.

So, uh, Bitcoin 66, ETH 1920, Soul 78, Chainlink 8.66, NASDAQ up about a percent and a half. Good to see, uh, I think people were a bit worried about the the stock market. And I think there is still a cause for concern for the typical late August September slump in stocks, which would coincide with the this rally will fail like all others on crypto. I continue to think that our tokens are going to set higher lows in the worst case, best case, we get new all-time highs across our hype, lit Zcash, Venice, Ne of the world. So, right, um, yeah, rates and things.

There's still some weird stuff happening with Japan FX and all that, but I don't really think we need to get into that. Frankly, I think it's really annoying when you have to pay attention to macro and crypto. As always, our market's powered by our friends at Zama. Visit zama.org, learn more about their private confidential computing and more. Anything else? >> One thing just to mention on the macro front is that you know the rate the rates are higher like uh treasury yields are elevated. The 10-year is like pumping and uh so is the 2-year. So that does have knock-on effects for all markets, equities and crypto included.

Um nothing like super concerning right now, but I think again it's you know there's there's new conversations that will continue to emerge, right? It feels like we've sort of beaten the the conversation around leg lower or new trend and gonna start to evolve. I think there's a lot of uh room to explore outperformance and relative strength as well as what happens if >> rates get a little out of hand. >> Yeah, man. So, we'll see what happens there. Uh guys, I'm going to pull it on to me on my screen right here for a second. Um, and I'm going to just talk to you guys about what's happening in the market right now. Um, which is what I consider to be a growing growing tide in terms of

the way that allocators are looking at the market. It's kind of interesting because um, you know, Edward in the chat here is like, "Jack Malers tried to use his debt to buy his crap company just like Bailey and Pomp, but failed." I I don't exactly know what happened to Jack Mers, but apparently there's some drama unfolding with the Bitcoin. He's stepping down as the CEO of 21. Um, so not ideal, I don't think, for Bitcoin. But I think Bitcoin just has this weird issue right now, which is why I'm bullish on Zcash that is like Bitcoin's got these overlords. Black Rockck, Sailor, Jack Mers, David Bailey, all these kind of like people that are just

so uh influential to the price and have accumulated so much with these interesting structures and these vehicles. It's kind of taken away the promise of Bitcoin. In my opinion, there's a reason why some of the whales that I've spoken to, and I'm talking like 2013 whales here, you know, I'm talking eight to nine figures in the markets ex profitably invested and withdrawn are have shifted some of their Bitcoin stack into Zcash. Maybe just a couple percentage points, five, 10, 15%. But meaningful sums of dollars. And so, Edward, what I would say is, yeah, there's all this DAT crap company stuff happening in Bitcoin, new overlords. I

personally have, not to get too deep into what I'm doing and, you know, docks and OBSC, but the Bitcoin that I have in the vault, let's say, I really want to get back to the vault sooner than later. Maybe maybe I need to reset how I'm doing it to make it a bit more accessible, but there's a reason why it's not accessible. Um, and I want to swap some of that to Zcash. So clip that because I'm telling you, Bitcoin has overlords. Zcash doesn't. I think we see a bigger move. Perfect. Left curve, right curve, left curve. Private Bitcoin. Herrer 2016 fractal. Herder right curve. Thermodynamic encrypted money for the future of the AI overlord Futarchy.

Like I mean, you could be a PhD or an absolute and you're going to be bullish on this thing. That's how you know it's a good investment. It's the only token that I'm really looking at right now that I'm not like what's the revenue, what's the [snorts] users, what's the fees, what's the economics. There's none of that. It's a store of value. Macro is important to crypto but noted Andy. This next crash will be an upwards crash. Zack Hodler here paving a road, boys. Sorry, I can't join. Monero-ZAMA 2. Yes, I think is obviously Zama's friend of the show. Um, they've done well. Um, so now Lynn Alden joined the frey with her Bitcoin company Knoxum. Really? I didn't see that. I

wonder if today's SP rally for Coinbase reflect anticipated revenue from exchange volume. I just think Coinbase and Circle have been decimated. Uh, I don't think you guys can see it. It's a bit cloudy and it's kind of like right behind the Nest here. But, uh, the the the One World Trade Centers where Circle has their office. I'm going to go down there today uh, and meet with the Circle folks. I I just think they're super undervalued and um I don't see them I like I just think Circle and Coinbase are going to have are going to rise as like a crypto beta investment vehicle. Monero baby. All right guys, let's get into the news. Uh let's get into clarity. Let's get into what's happening in the uh Clarity Act and more. Uh flipping over to that now. Before we do, let me tell you about Near, our our uh

onchain partner near.com. Discovering using Near Intense, one account, no financial, no borders, your financial life on chain. Visit near.com. All right, guys. So uh we had um the interview with Salman yesterday which he is the GC of Plume Network and Plume uh obviously we're here in the office and he basically spent three days in DC last week getting everything that you needed to know about clarity. So if you haven't watched that video go to our YouTube it's the most recent video. It's 30 minutes. Put it on one and a halfx speed. It's a good video. But basically, Patrick Wit here was supposed to go to

military training. Um, but somehow, uh, David Saxs and the government allowed him to just stay. So, he was, uh, supposed to be in mandatory training for the Georgia Army National Guard and he's staying. And so, um, Deputy Director Harry Jung is leaving the administration, which is kind of weird news as well. So, I'm not really sure how to react to that, but um, this is crunch time, guys. We've got an August 10th deadline. We've got a core ethics issue that is causing serious serious division in the House and the Senate between the Dems and the

Republicans. Trump has amassed over a billion dollars of wealth from World Liberty Finance and from his memecoin. And there are new rules of the road coming that will prohibit federal officials from being able to promote ICOs and token launches as a means to acquire wealth. We need the Democrats to get over the Trump thing and to set rules of the road that the Republicans agree with to move this bill forward. Truly, this should be a bi bipartisan thing. And frankly, if you think about the ideologies of Democrats and Republicans, we didn't get too deep into it, but Democrats should be all about crypto assets. They should be all about the ethos. It's about this enabling of

um you know, anyone to be a participant in markets. It's this uh banking the unbanked. It's equal opportunity. It's this kind of decentralized take down the middlemen, take down the rich old bankers who just get all this money from being [snorts] these intermediaries and rent seekers, you should really think about it like these guys should be should be excited for crypto. So while it's Trump is staining the reputation for the Democrats or sorry for the Republicans, this should be a bipartisan issue and both parties should be on board.

I think we got Rob back. Let's bring them back up and let's get into the next uh news piece here. Yep. All right. So, Robin Hood chains firing. I put out a tweet, Rob. I was like um maybe memes and RWAs are an elite onboarding strategy for new chains. Um, and that's kind of what they've done. That's kind of what they've done. They've just they've just basically uh launched a chain that has memes and RWAs and it's growing significantly in volume. So this is a Nvidia USDG pool here. I mean guys, I mean it's pretty exciting to see tokenized equities on

chain. That was a great interview, sir. Ethics agreed too, sir. It's coming out today. What's up, friends? If clarity does not pass, I'm voting mom Donnie for pus, Edward says. My god, I don't think actually I don't even think that's possible. That's messed up. I wonder if today's Oh, wait. Reflects anticipated token exchange volume. I think what Coinbase rallying on is probably around the any of this like tokenized equity dynamic and their growth in that space.

I unironically think that Robin Hood's growth here is actually bullish for Coinbase. Like it's weird like I like this all of Robin Hood's growth is bullish for Coinbase because they start to be compared. Like hear me out. So Robin Hood is much bigger than Coinbase and has a way bigger product, but Coinbase is significantly uh like smaller but more niche in crypto. Robin Hood coming into crypto elevates Coinbase's positioning to like not equal but like a a real threat and competitor and I think it's bullish. So that's how I'd think about it. Um yeah, guys, tell me about your positions in the market if you guys have any. If you

guys are doing anything, let me know in the chat. I'm going to take a super quick break, get Rob back up, and then we'll we'll we'll be fully back in. So, give me a sec here. Tell me about your position in the chat, guys. [music] >> [music] [music] >> If you're serious about crypto, this is where you need to be. The rollup will be broadcasting live from the Rare Evo Expo floor on day one. It's July 29th [music] and 30th at the Arya Resort and Casino

in Las Vegas. General admission is free, so don't miss out. Hear from US Senator Bernie [music] Moreno, Steven Gregory from Binance US, Brian [music] Quintens from Cali, and Maggie Parsons from Lighter. Connect with industry leaders from Bitwise, Wintermute, Privy, and dozens more. Claim your free ticket today [music] at rare evo.io. We'll see you in Las Vegas. We get we get deep. We get deep. [music] We get we get we get deep,

you know. We get deep. [music] We get [music] deep know. [music] >> All righty, guys. I don't know if I buy this. Um, if in the case something does happen to me, there's only one one thing the world needs to know. The US has teleportation technology. It seems impossible, but it's true. Guys, what the hell do we think about this?

>> Wow. >> Um, imagine if Robin Hood acquires FOMO. Yeah, I hear you. FOMO is having a incredible run right now. Like an absolutely incredible run. NOCSM said he's DeFi heavy. Sky Pendle, Uni, A Arrow. They should sell the set as an index. They're not as correlated as one would think. Yeah, I hear you. I think you should add your PERS in there. I think if you're not um allocating to per as part of the DeFi trade, you're missing the biggest opportunity clearly, but I think you are probably allocated to hype and lighter as well. Um um get all your friends stocks to get all your favorite stocks tokenized. Add an X to the end on a deck.

So, this guy here is a um he's an interesting character who is connecting his claims to Harold Puth's work on space-time metric engineering and quantum vacuum manipulation. Um, I don't really know what's going on here. This is giving like Edward Snowden vibes. Like it's really confusing how like if this guy disappears then I'm convinced we have aliens. I'm convinced we have teleportation and I'm convinced I'm going to live forever. So yeah, FOMO is good. I agree. FOMO is a great a a great

product. A great product. All right, guys. We're going to move to the next post. Before we do, I'm going to tell you about 1 in uh building DeFi infrastructure for efficient token swaps on any RWAS, any assets across 13 chains without bridging. Optimized routing, deeper onchain liquidity for tokenized stocks. All right, guys, let's get into Bitcoin here. Bitcoin could still go down and range from here, and I'd still be confident in some crypto bottom. Equities got hammered, but crypto held up well. Onchain feels like it's slowly coming back. pump, Robin Hood chain, and some FOMO as you guys just said in the chat.

>> Um, >> check >> strong alts are holding up lighter hype VVV. I got long VVV yesterday. I did kind of buy after the pump, so now I'm just kind of waiting. I'm starting to farm variational now, so I'm trading the my per on variational, of course, only when I'm out of the USA. Um, and I got more long lighter at about 2.2. Yeah, quick portfolio update. Clip this. Um, I added lighter at 2.25. Um, I think that's going to do well. I added near at $2 or so. Um, this is all on variational. I added, um, Venice at about 12, I don't know, high 12. So, I'm

a little bit under underwater on on Venice. Um, and these were all positions that I had had spot in, either sold some or the majority, but didn't sell uh all and then wanted to wait for a dip to get back in. Obviously, core positions, hype, lighter, Zcash, Bitcoin, some ETH, but I added those positions uh within the last 24 hours. And so, that's a bit of the portfolio update. And I just generally think that this is right. We might not get crazy flows, but I don't think we need much to push our favorite coins up. feels comfortable buying spot.

I agree. Very low leverage. Uh purpose is similar to spot in in my case. Gets me a bit more capital efficiency, a little bit less of a headache. Don't have to use centralized exchanges, etc. [snorts] VVV bullish. I agree. 1 in is what my ex called me. All righty, Edward. Let's keep it PG, buddy. [laughter] We're here testing you, Rob. Yeah, Rob, just hopefully you can figure it out, man. Man, I uh I wanted to chat about the teleportation technology and the uh Jacobian uh determinant that uh AI solve. >> Okay. Well, uh I do not know what any of that means, but I would like to keep this show rolling. So, we're going to go ahead and go over to pump fund revenue volumes and we'll pass that back to you when I have the next guest. Uh let's go ahead and get get into this next tweet

here from uh before we do, let me tell you about Lei or not. Sorry about that, gentlemen. All right, Rob's back. We're good. Everyone take a breath. Everyone just audio issues, tech issues, got the guest coming up here. We're good. So, basically, if you scroll down here, just to give you guys some context, um this guy tweeted that the pump fund revenue is very like weird. Uh like it doesn't make sense. It seems sus. It seems like it might be like um bought or like bought it or like inorganic. So this guy Victor Defi Villain, if you scroll down and see his tweet, you can see that he claims that the pump fund revenue is inorganic and why? Because it's so consistent. There isn't really any drop

offs. And so what's interesting, if you go to Hib's tweet, he looks at it and compares it to centralized exchange volumes and it looks pretty much the same. Some people are just addicted to memecoin trading. They're not just getting attention on crypto Twitter. He has zero exposure. He compares pump fund volumes and revenues to centralized exchanges. Then last thing is if you scroll down, you'll see that there was a chart of Hyperlid and you can see in Hyperlquid's volume right here in revenue, if you scroll down to this chart, you see that um there Yeah. So, keep going down a bit more. Yeah. You see that that there's these weekend drop offs, Rob. See how like the pump chart was so steady, but then hype revenue you

you see how there's these constant little dips. So those are the weekends. And the reason hase is stating is because professional traders only trade Monday to Friday on hyperlquid versus pump people with 10k slamming 100k market cap They'll do that on a Sunday if they want. And so I don't really have a take here, but I just thought this was an interesting dynamic between the revenue structures of Hype and Pump. Is there a cabal of of people on Twitter or some other place where they are they're doing that like there are like enough people that are slamming a 100k that they're generating millions of dollars every week in

revenue? I >> think so. We don't hear I mean maybe it's just a different circle. We don't hear about that. >> Yeah. >> Like the trenches from the outside looking in have been cooked. >> Yeah, they have. They have. I agree. >> I just don't I mean this is gambling, but it feels like and based on all the data that we've seen, the data suggests that you actually have a better chance at winning money sports gambling or going to the casino rather than memecoin trading. just the concentration of winners is greater even if you have no house edge. So I think pump fun is a casino. I think people can choose to play the game if

they want to play that game, but if I'm a player, I would want to play the game that gives me the best edge and it feels as if there's better games to play. Um so I just I don't know. I would want it. I if you guys trade, are you guys trading on pump? Like do you guys know people that are just going in there? Like do they have daily active users that are checking back day over day and like you know going into these coins because it seems like there's other games to play that might give you a higher chance to win.

Um I think you guys can hear me just fine now. Not sure what happened earlier with the tech issues, but let's keep rolling. Uh what do we have coming up next? Uh, I think this is our daily equity segment of the day. So, why don't we get that all prepped up? Daily Equities powered by Dinari, one of the leaders in tokenized equities, and we'll be bringing it right up. So, the NASDAQ is improving. Uh NASDAQ is of course part of the the technology index uh in the US and we talked yesterday about how US equities the

entire US stock market is just blowing the roof off of the the you know global markets everywhere. You know Korea's had a really really difficult stretch. A lot of that money is now flowing into the US, but the US stock market is also showing cracks. Um, a little bit higher up today, but in general over the last few weeks, it's been a little bit topsyturvy. Today, we're talking about how Nvidia is actively acquiring longhaul dark fiber across the United States with fiber counts reaching up to 100 pairs. The exact purpose remains unconfirmed, yet industry experts believe that they are aiming to resolve bottlenecks within a GPU ecosystem. Another possibility is that Nvidia may be looking to compete in

the GPU as a service market. So Nvidia uh recently lost its top spot as the most valuable company in the world. Apple superseded them in terms of market cap. Uh the initiative is believed to be focused on support is Nvidia's Neocloud customers who have generally been slower than major hyperscalers to secure their own dark fiber network capacity. And so Neo cloud is obviously a new cohort. Uh very similar to our Neo finance cohort. This is the next generation of cloud. Uh and so they have mentioned Sienna to be their favorite play related to the deployment. Uh and here is the release on Nvidia dark fiber buildout. This is obviously a adjacent but supporting

ecosystem uh that Nvidia is now focusing on. They're building out the rest of their GPU ecosystem, expanding the possible use cases of their GPUs into Neo Cloud, which has typically been somewhere they haven't really focused. Uh, competing in the GPU as a service market has been raised uh in order to supplement the rest of Nvidia's GPU market. I feel like Nvidia is almost like the the the hyperlquid of the equities market. It feels as if it's like really rised up through the ranks in recent time. Uh the thesis is a little bit played out, right? All of the gains seem to be focused on uh further down the stack of

the AI market. What are the hyperscalers spending money on? And I think that is the right way to frame an equities thesis right now is look all of these hyperscalers raised money in bond sales. Corporate bond sales. Meta, Microsoft, these guys raised hundreds of billions of dollars. Uh both those are the public hyperscalers that raise money in the corporate bond market. And then you have the frontier model companies that raise ton of capital in the private markets because they have not yet IPOed. These are the massive massive players that now are in a position to deploy all of that capital. So if you're looking right obviously they have now sold a lot of you know bonds and equity but they are

now looking at deploying that capital. So where does the next next dollar go towards it go toward uh the resources the infrastructure the picks and shovels that these frontier model companies are going to be and hyperscalers are spending money on. In this case, dark fiber is one that Nvidia seems to be spending money on. We had the entire semiconductor and memory um just uptrend. Uh this was again as a result of these large large large pools of capital uh in these frontier model companies and hyperscalers that is now getting deployed and we expect this to just continue to move further down the line as demand ramps up for the materials that are required to

manufacture intelligence. This moves further down the supply chain. So what comes after memory and semiconductors? That is the next question and that is what investors are looking. So if you look at you know the micron uh the the you know these these sorts of companies what do they spend their money on uh what is their raw materials to manufacture memory because now that has been the bottleneck as of the most recent days and weeks. So this is sort of the the thought process as this capital moves through the supply chain.

Uh it ends up going deeper and deeper into the stack. Uh we also anticipate that energy just raw energy um is going to be a major resource as this continues to expand in terms of the buildout. Uh guys, that has been the daily equity segment for today powered by dinari. our friends at dinari are helping tokenize all of these equities and bring uh broader market access to this asset class. And so in here we're talking about a couple of the uh a couple of these dark fiber plays. Uh we will see dinari tokenized uh not only these but more tokenized equities going forward.

Let's keep moving along. I think we've got maybe one or two tweets that we can uh we can kick into before we bring uh Meredith of Wisdom Tree into the tower. And uh we're going to go live to Andy and Meredith in just a minute. So, let's get them ready in the back and we're going to get and we're going to get uh we're going to get them up in just a moment, guys. And so, we're gonna go uh we're going to get ready for a tremendous show. so I can give you guys a little bit of an intro into what uh Andy and Meredith are going to be talking about in the tower.

So, let's see. We've got uh Meredith, who's head of business development for digital assets at Wisdom Tree. Uh let's go ahead flip the title. We've got Meredith coming up next in the title in the uh in the tower. Um Meredith is head of business development for digital assets at Wisdom Tree. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. We're going to bring this up here in just a moment. A lot of moving parts here. Let's go ahead and flip the title. We're going to get that going.

Head of BD at Wisdomree for digital assets at Wisdom Tree. This is obviously a big big focus at Wisdom Tree as of late. The Meredith joined the firm in May of 2022. deep bare market. Joining Wisdom Tree for Digital Assets uh is an extremely extremely professional move. She served as the executive director at Morgan Stanley where she led business development and strategy for the outsourced chief investment officer. Uh in her current role, she drives partnerships and growth for Wisdom Tree's tokenized fund. Uh the the the whole tokenized fund strategy, which I spoke to a team yesterday. This is becoming a greater focus in DeFi. As we tokenize more of these funds, we're

going to be integrating them into the onchain economy. Uh the flagship Wisdom Tree Treasury Money Market Digital Fund, tickers WTGXX, and the broader suite of SEC registered uh 1940 act tokenized products available via Wisdom Tree Prime, Wisdomree Connect. Her work focused on bridging the traditional finance uh ecosystem with onchain infrastructure enable stable coin integrations, 24 settlement, and institutional adoption. So guys, this is uh a asset class of billions and uh Meredith is going to tell us all about it and how the institutional enterprise world is approaching tokenized money markets and beyond and how these are getting integrated into

the onchain economy. So very fascinating. Uh we're going to bring her up right away. Let's get into it. Meredith, the head of BD at Wisdomree live from the tokenization tower. >> [music] [music] [music] >> If you're serious about crypto, this is where you need to be. The rollup will be broadcasting live from the Rare Evo Expo floor on day one. It's July [music] 29th

and 30th at the Arya Resort and Casino in Las Vegas. General admission is free, so don't miss out. Hear from US Senator Bernie [music] Moreno, Steven Gregory from Binance US, Brian Quintens from Cali, and Maggie Parsons [music] from Lighter. Connect with industry leaders from Bitwise, Wintermute, Privy, and dozens more. Claim your free ticket today at rare [music] evo.io. [music] >> Welcome back to another episode of

Stabled Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital dollars, stable coins, and the future of decentralized finance. Show is made possible by FRA and FRA is powering the financial engine of the internet powering FRXUSD and genius compliant stable coins. This is the stablecoin super cycle made possible by FRA. Now enjoy stabled up [music] our weekly stable coin show. >> [bell] >> Going

70. All righty, guys. Welcome back to Stabled Up episode number 42, our premier weekly stablecoin show powered by our friends at FRA. Visit FR or fra.com to learn more about their FRXUSD product and more. We've got Meredith Hannon, the head of BD at Wisdom Tree Digital Assets. Meredith, great to have you. >> I know you are uh familiar with this area. It's bit of a cloudy day, but still a great view. It's good to have you.

>> Thank you so much for having me. And yes, always a nice view in New York, even on a cloudy day. >> You're a New Yorker. >> I am a New Yorker at heart. So, >> absolutely at heart. Yeah, we were talking about this before. 15 years. Unbelievable. But the skyline's still pretty amazing. So, thanks for having me. >> Well, Meredith, uh, Wisdom Tree has been, some could say, early to the punch on digital assets, recognizing the power of what's possible here and really just understanding what's happening. And I think the way that we're currently framing it within our, you know, show and community is that there's these mega trends that are forming and they're all they're basically the exports of the industry that are the most successful and very clearly stable coins are are one of these and tokenization has become I mean now kind of like the you know the

the more loved child in the room. Stable coins a little less exciting to you know you can tokenize anything right and so these two mega trends stable coins about five years or so in tokenization still in you know in the earlier years and it feels like these two exports of the industry um they are kind of powering this convergence between finance and defi so you know given that context given what you're doing at wisdom tree would love to just understand what your perview on this kind of mega trend is and how you guys think about uh you know allocating, investing, building and how you guys see this kind of convergence.

>> Absolutely. And and thanks so much. And I think what's a bit different about Wisdom Tree is that we've been doing this for over five or six years now. So while to many this is um a new mega trend for us this is something that we've had conviction in for many many years. And the reason for that is Wisdom Tree as a publicly traded ETF and ETP sponsor with over $170 billion globally. We've been thinking about what is the future of asset management and what that really means is investing but also how do you use your money and what's the utility behind that and how do you create the best investor experience and from that that's where we found tokenization because we see this as an opportunity the way that ETFs were that gateway to access for all investors

through a brokerage account tokenization is that access for global investors all through your phone or all through the internet. So we find that to be really powerful to go to our ethos of the democratization of finance. So what we've done is stable coins is definitely here to stay. I know we'll talk about the genius act and I'm sure clarity later but really what our focus has been is around the tokenization of real world assets. We also have crypto ETPs and ETFs a healthy part of our business in the traditional space. But really the tokenization of real world assets is where you where we think you're going to get that newfound utility. you're going to be able to do things with your money that you couldn't do before in a really powerful way for both retail and institutional investors. So, what we've

done is we've built a platform. So, we own our own technology. We run our own full tech stack. So, very different than some of our competitors. And what that enables us to do is to not only issue products, but also issue really experiences and user journeys that make use cases very clear for our clients. So, if you're a CFO and you're managing money across the world and you want to be able to move between a stable coin or a money market fund seamlessly 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year, you don't have to go through a bank. You're able to use our platform to do that. If you're a retail investor and you want to buy Bitcoin or a US 500 large cap product or um gold, tokenized gold, you

can do that through our retail app. So really creating defined user journeys that are enabling the access of money um in a really differentiated way is what we're focused on. So it's not only products but it's also platforms. And right now like a lot of us but really where we've technically excelled is through our money market fund to provide access to yield that you're not getting through a stable coin. Um but it can move and it can trade like a stable coin which I think is really powerful. Yeah, I'm a very very onchain native investor and DeFi native investor and not a big brokerage guy. And I re I I I learned this year that the the T+1 settlement time on money market funds is real and

is quite annoying when you're used to everything being very instant. >> Absolutely. And that's why we have T plus0 and 247 trading because we completely agree. And how can these traditional assets, our goal is to make the traditional assets move and trade like crypto assets and how do we create that convergence and it doesn't mean just necessarily like you said you can tokenize anything but that doesn't mean that the underlying utility is better than what you'd get through a traditional investing experience. So we're really really focused on not just issuing these products that are tokenized but actually really improving the utility and the user experience.

>> Yep. Love it. And so one of the kind of core constructs and mental models that we keep asking folks about and trying to understand is if this kind of tokenization thesis is correct and we get this massive onboarding of assets on chain, equities, money market funds, stable coins already tokenized deposits. Then we get into, you know, further down the risk curve, real estate, private credit, etc., etc. Who are the largest um winners in this scenario? Right? So there's, you know, a couple trillion dollars of total crypto market cap right now in terms of assets, about $150 billion or so in TVL and DeFi.

>> We're expecting, you know, 5 10 20 trillion of assets coming on chain in the next, let's call it a decade or so. >> Who wins in this scenario? Who who is the outright winner, whether it be protocols, primitives, issuers? How do you think about this kind of like unfolding landscape of this tokenization stablecoin mega trend as it pertains to kind of the competitive landscape uh as it stands? >> Absolutely. And and it's a good question because I think the market as it stands today is going to be very different than the market that it is in five or 10 years and a big reason of that is going to be for mainstream adoption. And this is something that's been talked about.

I've been at Wisdom Tree for over four years. It's something that's been talked about for a long time. Not only the instit in institutions are coming but retail investors are coming and I think we're finally at that crux and at that point because it's when you start to replplatform existing businesses like the work with DTCC or many of the large banks a lot of what we're doing to provide that access in a really easy seamless way where four years ago you were talking about managing your own wallet you're talking about managing your own keys that's pretty cumbersome for a traditional investor now we're talking about it's one click it is through your Stripe account. It is through your Robin Hood account. It's through whatever other types of accounts you might have, your wisdom tree account. That is, I think, what's really

powerful is that all of that technology is creating those efficiencies and that new utility without being cumbersome to the end investor. So, I think who wins is who makes that the easiest. And that's what we're focused on is that we are meeting our clients where they are. we are integrating into existing platforms and also building our own platforms so that wherever you are in your investing experience you can get access to it. So I don't know if it's going to be one specific protocol. I think like the existing financial service industry there's going to be a few big winners. But I think what's going to be very different is who those winners are going to be because you can get customers and you can get assets from around the world in many different ways versus the more localized um constraints of today.

>> Yeah. And so then specifically on some of the kind of decision-making processes for like in a firm like Wisdom Tree, you know, there's tons there's so many blockchains out there. There's so many uh different types of DeFi protocols, primitives, uh infrastructure, >> and you know, there's obviously a couple big stable coins, tethers, uh and circle obviously. when it comes to like deciding how you are creating your strategy within these kind of two vectors. How do you think about you know allocating resources, time, capital, building specific products for different user types or like what is that that kind of process look like for Wisdom Tree and kind of what you know who do you talk to? What what is like the

insights that go into the Wisdom Tree digital asset strategy for you know stable coins and tokenization? >> Absolutely. and well so we have a great team and again most of us have been doing it for quite some time so we we like to say we know almost everybody but want to get to know everyone um I think a big part of our strategy though is being commercially forward so it's saying what are clients looking for what are end investors looking for and how can we bring added value and how can our partners bring that added value so as we start to think about different chains and we do have a multi-chain strategy it's really focusing on where are people building how are they using these chains how can we be additive to that ecosystem and how can we really partner same thing on the platform side we've done a lot

with uh B2B and B2B TTOC distribution this year really focused on how can we scale ourselves how can we connect with the right partners and how can we get to that mainstream adoption I was talking about before while also at the same time it's about building the best products that we can so we have 247 trading we have a secondary market we're the first and still only tokenized money market fund that has a a 247 secondary market. Um, we have on and off ramps for stable coins. We have $1 minimums. Um, and we have equal access to retail and institutional investors while all still being a regulated US business. That's where our power comes from. And I do

think that that's a differentiator for us. So, when we think about partners, we want to think about partners who are differentiated um, and how we see this see the world. So, whether it's on the DeFi side, we're doing a lot of work there. Of course, I think that's if you went to to the second level of mega trends, it's definitely on the DeFi front. Um, but also on stable coins. We work with many stable coin issuers, um, focus on reserve and treasury management. And now we're even expanding our, um, really our remitt out to think about corporates and think about other institutions and how we can better serve them than how they're served today. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. And and the numbers don't lie. the WTGXX product has grown from, you know, you know, a couple tens of millions of AUM to nearly a

billion. Um, clearly a lot of demand coming from different users, whether they be onchain, allocators, offchain that are coming and kind of using the app or the tokenized product. And so, you know, when we think about this kind of so you just kind of explained how you think about uh, you know, choosing partners and your strategy and then obviously something's working right because it's growing significantly. you guys are kind of at the right place, right time with with the right product, licenses etc. >> How do we get to like 10 billion, like 50 billion? What is that like? What is the step function change? Is it a distribution game? Is it a um products game? Like what is it that you guys think is um going to like when you're speaking to large firms, allocators, high net worths, and they, you know,

they may talk to your advising side or whatever it is. Is there things in specific that you've noticed that they are or that are in more demand than others? Um, and then how do you take that information and and kind of, you know, 10x this thing? >> Absolutely. And and that's the literally the billion dollar question. Um, so and I think the main point though is >> it is products, it is platform, it is distribution and it's having ones that are built that reflect what the client need is. So I'll give a great example about the money market fund. Uh our tokenized money market fund is the first money market fund wisdom trees ever had.

We don't have a traditional money market fund. The only money market fund that we have is tokenized and we believed so strongly that the market needed a tokenized money market fund because of the stable NAV because of the rigor that we could bring from a bankruptcy remoteness and lack of a counterparty real issue which we saw a few years ago as you all know. um and really bring that rigor but also bring the access points so that with this product you can send us USDC or PYUSD and we will send you back onchain natively so just to a wallet address and we will send you back money market fund tokens. That ease of access has really driven a lot of that growth and that came from client feedback that we received of why do I

have to use a web portal? Can I do this on chain? we're all on chain and we said absolutely why not make this easier and better and so I think that's really the focus of us is that it's not just building products because we think it's a good idea it's building products that the part that the market is asking us for and that's a lot of my role is to go out and say this is what we're thinking this is interesting does this work for you and the feedback is great and this is what I love about this community is they'll say yes but and the yes but is where we've been able to really grow because we've been able to build for clients, not just in the abstract um hoping that it works.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean that that era that you speak of which is this kind of client first, product first, customer first. Uh you guys have been living in that world for a long time. But I must say that the crypto industry has has slowly matured to being like there's products and product market fit and revenue and businesses and this is how the world works. It's not just a token game. Um, but there's a lot there's tons to be optimistic about when when you're looking at kind of thinking about the uh growth of this kind of market. One of the largest like blockers has been regulation. And so we're two weeks out of the Clarity Act deadline on August 10th, but we're past the Genius Act signing and into the kind of

implementation phase. I'm just curious from your perspective as far as and it kind of goes back to that kind of 10x question is how much do you think that the onchain world is being inhibited by the lack of regulatory clarity? No pun intended. And um you know is this something that you're hearing from other allocators, firms, high net worths? Oh, I'm waiting to get some clarity. I I I don't know if I can do this or other banks. Like what's kind of happening behind the scenes with regards to the rhetoric on on the regulatory side? >> Absolutely. And um I know and they really got us with these Genius Act and Clarity Act because there's so many puns intended. I know for what they choose.

Um but I I agree. I think that many investors um especially in the on the larger side and also for banks are waiting for this clarity again lack of um pun intended that it really has been a focus point to say we just need to wait for this. We need to wait for this. we need to wait for the for the next iteration of it and to really understand what's going to the be the bounds that we can operate in because there is an area of gray right now and I think what we how our response is though is that we have 15 tokenized products today we have our own stable coin we have our own gold token all of those launched in 2023 so in the prior administration under a completely different regime so it is

possible you can do it you do have to go through the regulatory front door of working with the local regulators, but I also mentioned before we have 24/7 trading that was made of effective through the SEC and through our existing US-based money market fund. So, it is possible. Um, but I do think that there's many, many people in the industry who are waiting to understand what the rules of the road are. Um, but I think that we're getting there slowly but surely. And I think Genius Act was a great example of what we can expect to see for traction because if you look at stable coins before the Genius Act and after I mean now the engagement on of the US market is exponentially higher than where where we were before. Um

obviously circles IPO as well. So I do think that with regulation will become a title wave of positive growth. It's just getting there. And I do think um for us though, it hasn't stopped us um because we've been able to still operate within whatever regime it may be to put out compliant products that are still innovative and are still tech forward. >> Yeah. And I mean it's funny they there was such an offshoring in this industry. Like we have a like a small little fund that my partner and I invest through and we had to do it you know in some islands that I've never heard of that was like the you know the right structure and you you know you you don't market to US citizens.

And now it's just like the complete opposite. It's like really floodgates and then all of a sudden [snorts] people are like oh well of course the US has the most amount of capital in the world and the largest investor base. We needed to talk to them. So it's almost like this industry is going through like this >> insane transitionary phase back to the US and kind of onshoring >> which is great. Uh crypto is obviously and blockchain is a global technology. It's not bound by any single uh you know state or anything but it it it is great to kind of see that you know come back to the US.

>> Absolutely. And I do think though it still is important to note that the people ask me oh can I tokenize X Y and Z and there's still a legal structure underlying all of these products though right and those legal structures are going to be within a certain jurisdiction or a certain state. So there is a bit still I think that's one of the bottlenecks is that there still is um you still need to register a fund or a product out of a certain jurisdiction. They have different rules. They have different regulations. So navigating that in a global um a truly global economy has been really interesting um and definitely something that we've spent a lot of time working towards to ensure that we can onboard as many customers as we possibly can but also being thoughtful about what that

looks like and the experience for them as well. >> Yeah. Like on that note, specifically composability is a beautiful benefit of blockchain and DeFi. You get all these interesting um concepts and vaults have become a very prominent uh topic as well. You could put a >> a wisdom tree tokenized T-build product or money market fund. You could put in tokenized S&P in there. Put in some Bitcoin and all of a sudden you've got this product that is like a you know risk managed portfolio. Yeah. an actively managed vault portfolio that has three different asset types all onchain 24/7 liquidity with very low fees and you look at the typical ETF space right now in brokerages and you're like this is just simply not possible and so like the whole vault complex is really really growing

>> and it's because of this composability of multiple chains different types of assets on chain etc. So the question is how do you guys think about that as a unfair advantage or as an edge for wizry and how do you navigate the let's call it regul regulated assets tokenized money markets stable coins if you will and you know defy token a um you know digital commodity collectible like is there a world where you could have more composability with uh kind of uh different types of products? How do you kind of think about the composability as a benefit for what you guys are doing?

>> Absolutely. And um we're we're not a vault curator today. Um but I I'll at least speak broadly about what we think about this for the asset management industry and also for um for model portfolios and also frankly for customized portfolios. Before I came to Wisdomree, I did a lot of work on custom multi-asset class portfolios um as well as the models portfolio business. And we did a a proof of concept. This was years ago with JP Morgan and Apollo to prove out that you could rebalance a thousand custom portfolios within three clicks and that is still very very possible today. It just has not been brought to market in the way that I think um it can be now with this new vault structure

which I think is really interesting. There is still a regulation question around the vault infrastructure and how it's built [clears throat] um and who is doing that action. >> What are they >> right? And I think there's a lot of work being done in in that front. But from our perspective as an asset issuer, um we love this as an option because for us it's a it's a different type of distribution model for us. Um but obviously have to be thoughtful about how we're integrating, who we're integrating with. To your question around partners before, um obviously looking at this very very intently um and and deciding how it makes sense for us to fit within this. But if you think broadly about what this means for financial services or again back to my earlier point about what this means for

investors, I mean imagine that you could have a via smart contracts a completely customized portfolio to your specific needs, wants, types of um equities you want to invest in, what you want to be out on the risk curve, and all of that would be managed for you. And then you add on an AI agent on top of that. But seriously, now what do you think about the future of the wealth management business too enable to really customize what you could invest in and then also do a bit of your homework for you. So I think there's >> a lot of work to being done and I probably there's a a regulatory team that has a million questions. But I think the fact that the technology is

there, this is another example where the technology is there. How are we from a business and a legal and compliance perspective going to meet that and get to a place that again focused on the end client are going to provide the best investing experience? And I think vaults for a lot of reasons even just being able to bring together um crypto assets and real world assets to make it easier to manage um or even to be able to do leverage types of trades. I mean, there's just a lot of benefits that you can see that it takes the onus off of the end investor and puts it onto a professional who can manage this. Um, I think that that is really powerful. A lot of work to still be done on it. It's something that we're looking into pretty

heavily. Um, but it'll be interesting to see how how it builds out over time. >> Yeah, a bit of a nuanced uh question here is there's a a partner of the show, Zama. They have a uh they have confidential technology basically that enables you to do transfers on Ethereum and other EM chains. Um and they recently launched a vault product with Morpho that allows you to deposit USDC privately on Ethereum mainet into the product and have your you know generate yield onchain completely privately with no exposure publicly of your wallet or of the quantity of you know >> it's incredible >> fully private. Just curious like do you see do you see that as like >> a non-negotiable? I I think privacy is absolutely something that needs to be

solved and there's a lot of different ways that's that's interesting. I haven't heard of them, but I there's a lot of different ways and a lot of different protocols that are attacking this. Yeah. From different angles, but privacy is absolutely key, I think, especially to your question before about what's going to take to get to 10 billion. um serious investors are not going to although except for um an example early this year where someone's you know placing a $50 million trade on their phone most people would not do that and don't want that to be um don't want that to be seen so I do think the privacy element is important I also think the identity element is also very important so that you don't have to onboard to every single protocol to every single app to every single insert what vault whatever it may be um I do

think those are two that we do need to solve. And I think privacy in particular is one that's going to be important. And I think if you look at a lot of the major um banks with um with Bitcoin ETFs, and many people have asked me, you know, there's so many in the market, why would they launch this? And you look and it's it's because they take in. So meaning that you can send your Bitcoin to that ETF and not be exposed. Correct. Um and then that takes a bit of the risk off of you, right? I do think that that is a powerful tool um that is going to need to be also figured out.

>> So I can't help but think through this that Wisdom Tree is almost becoming like a verticalized you know DeFi stack or verticalized crypto stack in our own tech platform. >> Yeah, exactly. So you've got this platform this front end. You've got uh the the tokenized money market fund that's grown significantly. You mentioned you have your own stable coin. There's obviously an easy entrance into vault curation just based on the prowess of the of the asset management business. Um there's the ETF the the ETFs and ETPs. So it's like the the whole kind of verticalization of the stack is you know you come to Wizantry and you effectively have your entire portfolio if you want to do anything to to do with crypto in a regulated fashion on chain. You you have it there. You know when it comes to this kind of verticalization just curious how

you think about it. I know it comes down to customer product users feedback but just give us a bit more into like um maybe what the vision is. >> Absolutely. So uh and I can't talk too too much about specifics but something that we are really focused on is now 247 liquidity course and how do we think about what I was mentioning before of having our assets trade like crypto assets but still have the rigor and the regulation of um being US regulated. So a huge focus of ours is that 247. Um, and what that means is that um, and and people have asked me, you know, well, I don't want to trade at two o'clock in the morning. That is not necessarily why we're doing this. We're doing this

because we have launched partnerships with broker dealers in Singapore. So, how do you think about a world that is global, that is always on 24/7. How do you actually create economies of scale across different markets, which today they're everyone is siloed, right? The wisdom tree products that would trade in Europe are not necessarily the same that trade in the US. you don't get that combined liquidity which is where power can come from and a lot of scale can come from. How do you think about making this 247? So that's where our road map is really focused on and today our products are mutual funds technically that's how they're regulated. So they're striking a nav once a day. We recently filed for a tokenized ETF. So also how do you think about intraday trading? So

how do if you think about these stepping stones we started with the money market fund then we have 14 other products of equities fixed income. We've got a liquid private credit product, gold. Those are accessible between uh Wisdomree Prime, our retail platform, and Wisdom Tree Connect, our institutional platform. >> And now, how do you make the utility of those actual assets even better? That's through ETFs. So, tokenized ETFs, and that's through 247 trading. So, that's really what our focus is on improving that um utility. And then also thinking about um how to going back to the question around conversion. I mentioned before we do our own stable coin conversion. Right now it's for USDC and PYUSD. How do you expand that to more stable coins, more opportunities, and

really focused on making it again as seamless as possible and as easy of an experience for as many investors as possible to interact with us in a really thoughtful way. So that's our our roadmap and a lot more. We will come back later this year to talk about the 247 trading because I think that's a game changer. >> Yeah, growing up as a you know late teenager early 20s in the crypto first world feels like I'm living in the future when [laughter] the entire traditional finance world is going 24/7. >> It's just it's when things are more efficient and they create >> less friction, humans just tend to just they >> actually gravitate. Yes.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> So it's just a snowball. >> Yes. And that's to to your earlier question too. That is what we continuously go to of well why would someone do this? I get this asked this question all the time. Why would someone invest in a tokenized money market fund instead of a traditional one? Because it's easier. Because it's faster. Because it enables them to do essentially crossber payments without having to get out of a brokerage account or a bank account and wire money to another bank. That's why you would do this because it's just a better investing experience. And the more that we can make those touch points easier for regular mainstream investors, that's where we're going to get the exponential growth.

>> Beautiful. Ladies and gentlemen, Meredith Hannon from Wisdom Tree Digital Assets, head of BD on today's Stable Up episode number 42. Thanks for watching, Meredith. Great episode. Thank you for being here. Thanks for being part of the tower today. And uh guys, we'll be right back with some markets, charts, news, our next guest, and more. Don't go anywhere. Thanks for rocking with us. See you in a sec. >> [music] [music] [music] >> If you're serious about crypto, this is where you need to be. The rollup will be

broadcasting live from the Rare Evo Expo floor on day one. It's July 29th [music] and 30th at the Arya Resort and Casino in Las Vegas. General [music] admission is free, so don't miss out. Hear from US Senator Bernie Moreno, Steven Gregory from Binance US, Brian Quintens from Cali, and Maggie Parsons from Lighter. Connect with industry leaders from Bitwise, Wintermute, Privy, and dozens more. Claim your free ticket today at rare [music] evo.io.

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We get deep. [music] We get deep, you know. We get deep. We get deep. We get deep, [music] you know. We get deep. >> Yo yo yo. >> Um, great interview with Wisdom Tree. Mayor quite smart. They're doing interesting work in the space. Obviously growing significantly. What's going on in the market, Rob? What did I miss? Um, I mean it's it's two things. One of which, you know, both of which we were talking about earlier. One of them is that uh Bitcoin looks great upwards of 66 yet everything else is didn't get the memo. And so I think it's worthwhile

talking about like what happens if this continues to play out? Uh what happens if Bitcoin uh rips 70 plus? What where does that leave alts? Uh, does it mean that we want to be positioned at Bitcoin or are alts trying to I I get the sense, right? You always got to think like what is the dog and what is the tail? Which one is wagging which? And I kind of think that Bitcoin is now telling us something and alts just haven't quite gotten the message yet. I think that is more likely than alts telling us something and Bitcoin not getting the message. You know what I mean? So, I think it might just be >> Go ahead.

>> Yeah. like uh like you're basically saying like Bitcoin's suggesting that maybe we get a little bit risk on for a bit but als super super solid. Um we I mean this was kind of like I mean I'm not going to get into it all but yeah I agree. I mean this is showing this is showing potential for at least some more consolidation off the back of today. I mean, we'll see kind of what happens. Um, you know, so, and this is also showing potential for at least at the very least consolidation, >> if not new highs, S&P.

>> So, these are both showing desire to not go down. >> So, I would agree with you. I would say Bitcoin is sniffing that out um and telling us something and alts are just kind of lagging a bit. I would s I would say >> the other thing that I think um and look I've made it pretty clear that I think we're we're in disbelief right and so that there's two uh playbooks rules of thumb that I think are are helpful like cycle over cycle one of them is that Wall Street uh psychology playbook and you know it has the heat map and then it has the blue with the disbelief and then you can sort of have like the internal psychological dialogue as you go through the cycle. Yeah, >> I tend to think every all of the

rhetoric that we're seeing is saying we're going to get a nice pop. Uh it's going to be a bear trap and then we're going to get one flush and another leg down. Now people are starting to come around with maybe this is the bottom because people are going to frontr run that leg down and try to just just beat it out. But it really feels like disbelief. That is the uh the rhetoric that we're hearing out there. The other um the other playbook uh that I think is helpful um is it's from Secrets of Crypto who has so many great charts.

>> Yeah, he does. >> Uh I'm going to send you the uh the link here because you got your screen up, but it's this one here. >> Uh it's coming over in your Telegram now, Andy. Um >> okay, >> there it is in the live chat. Um, and so if we can get this up on the screen, I think this is going to be helpful to walk through as well. And I'm curious to just kind of talk out the thesis here on whether we think this is going to happen again, right? Because >> we know, you know, there's this four-year cycle. It seems like it's playing out again. Maybe we, you know, accelerate that timeline a little bit because that seems to be happening. We front run the bottom a little bit.

>> Yeah. But phase one according to secrets of crypto is that first you get Bitcoin moving and this typically is a result of you know the having cycle and Bitcoin is the largest market cap and so it has these knock-on effects with the rest of the the altcoin complex. Um so Bitcoin moves flows of money into Bitcoin causing price surges >> and secrets of crypto up top here says that alt season is a function of the market due to new participants flooding into crypto around the same time. This is usually triggered by the Bitcoin mining supply having every four years which causes a surge in price or a sudden loss of faith in centralized fiat currencies. I think there's a couple things to mention here. One is that the Bitcoin mining supply part of this

thesis is probably going to have a diminishing effect because this um new Bitcoin that is added and halfed every four years is a less uh it's a smaller percent of the total supply of Bitcoin as we go on. And so this is fundamentally going to have a smaller impact on the market because the having the cut in half is only going to represent like 1.75 bitcoin now versus uh before I think it was you know it it was 5 10 15 25 and so it's a smaller percent of the overall supply. The other part here is the sudden loss of faith in centralized fiat currencies as bitcoin has gotten institutionalized. I think there is also something to say around

not only the loss of faith in centralized fiat currencies. That is why the bond conversation that we had earlier is relevant. High bond prices, low bonds equals less faith in the US government to make good on its debts. I think that is a significant part of this. The other part of this is the stock market uh and just more people are just concentrating wealth in the stock market. If there are struggles or fragments in the stock market, we would have a very similar thesis to the loss of faith in the centralized fiat currencies or just that typical investor complex. I'll just finish reading the rest of this.

>> The duration of these phases are parabolic in nature, meaning phase one takes the longest, phase four goes the fastest, and phase overlap and can temporarily reverse before continuing. But we always end up at the mania of alt season. It's likely there are multiple alt seasons per crypto bull cycle of varying degrees. The biggest one being after the end of Bitcoin's bull run when the largest number of participants enter the markets. I think this is fundamentally something really really important to understand and and and I'm sure you've seen this as well is that we have had participants leave the market.

They have gone into equities. They've gone into AI and participants have left the market. That has caused a low volatility environment. And so first we need these participants to enter re-enter the market. They probably do this towards the end through Bitcoin and then they make their way further into down the risk curve. >> Yeah. The only thing that's wrong about this right now is that we just didn't have like we got Zcash hyperlid pretty much only. I would say maybe >> there was a near Venice. No, no, not chartwise. Not chart wise. It was just it if you look at TA and just pure chart it's bearish retest. alltime highs are way way high, right? Venice all-time highs, hype, all-time highs, Zcash all-time highs in the bear. So, there's

no phase one Bitcoin this time. It's it's it's completely decoupled from like those three pretty much. I mean, a couple others have completely decoupled. But I do think >> I think you could apply that thinking to like the equities market. Like it was people that left but they re-entered as a result of the thesis that they were seeing in the AI bottleneck privacy, you know, doomer zoomer trade was happening in the equities market and now they re-entered >> the crypto market because it aligned with that thesis. >> Yep. Okay. Well, we shall see, Rob. Um, we shall see. I think I mean if we're saying that we need Bitcoin to lead here, I mean I agree. Um >> I think that's what we're I mean that's

what Secrets of Crypto is alluding to here with this chart is that first phase is Bitcoin. And so I think you know looking at this >> is going to give us a little bit of confirmation bias in the sense that it's confirming what the market's doing right now. Not to say that that is our bias, but it's confirming what the market is doing right now. It's all sort of going according to plan, according to the way that it's always gone. And I'm I think I'm I mean, every time we say this time is different, it's not different. And so I think it is helpful to just realize that this play playbook has been carried out almost every single time. Somebody says, "How's the crypto fear and greed index looking?"

>> Um, let's look at that. 40 neutral. We were in max fear about three weeks ago. Now we're at neutral. >> So >> yeah. >> So I, you know, initially I was a bit confused. I said to myself, you know, why is Bitcoin, why is the altcoin complex not just tracking Bitcoin up in lock step? >> Yeah, it's just one day though, you know. So, do you expect this uh this trend to continue where Bitcoin moves and the rest of the things don't or you think they're going to move in unison?

>> Um I don't know, but it's just one day. Like, uh a lot of the alts moved last night before Bitcoin really moved and then they've had just a bit of a slower day today. But I I I think that the more important trend to pay attention to is just the ones that are completely have already removed themselves from the cycle and have just done extremely well uh without even needing Bitcoin to really move. Just needs to to not go down. So guys, we've got Yoshi from Alpaca. uh the CEO uh he they just raised they announced a raise of $435 million partial equity raise debt funding as

well. Uh Alpaca is powering I think 85% of all tokenized equity providers volume onchain. So doing pretty incredible dominance of the market and it's really just going to probably expand like 10 to 25x the end of the decade this market I think next year and by the end of the year we get a pretty large growth as well. So they got they raised from peak venture or peak uh XV partners uh uh returning uh investors from BMP and more 300 million in debt from Payword Kraken

uh and some and a new equity raise and yeah we're going to talk to Yoshi about the raise about the state of tokenized equities and the growth at large. Last we had Yoshi on I believe was um in a conference somewhere. It might have been DC or in Miami. >> It was DC. >> So, let's get Yoshi up and let's get him up and let's talk tokenized equities and this mega trend that just continues to rise. Yoshi, congrats on the raise. Huge number number go up. Good to have you, man.

>> Yeah, always good to be here. Thank you for having me. >> Of course, man. Of course. >> Um Yoshi, man, I think you know you guys have raised a ton of capital. You're underpinning a huge portion of this tokenized equities market. Um, but I think, you know, from just the broad sentiment perspective, you guys are still somewhat flying under the radar. Like, what why do you think that is? I think you're very familiar and very connected to all these institutions, but from people that are on the outside looking in, why do you think uh why do you think they haven't really embraced uh Alpaca quite yet? And and how do you I mean, how do you ultimately unlock this in everyone's minds?

>> I I think it's it's good and bad. Um because like think about it, right? like you know we are not really directly in you know involved you know getting involved with the end customers or end user holding the assets uh if you think about like you know the BNY pers or state street I don't think not very many people really get excited uh about hearing their names instead of like hearing about I don't know Robin Hood or like you know knowing about charge and all those things I think it's similar thing where the business of uh securities uh uh you know clearing and custody it's a very uh boring boring business and we're happy to be in the boring business. [laughter] >> Yeah. I mean, boring pays, right? An investor friend of mine once said, uh, I

don't invest in anything sexy. I learned my lesson trying to do crypto gaming investments. I only do boring stuff. Now, um, talk to us about this raise, man. So, $435 million equity and debt, uh, combination there. Uh, obviously a large amount of capital. Um, you know, you guys previously reached unicorn status earlier this year, I believe, or late last year when you announced that raise. What was the thinking here around this capital raise and um and around the structure? Why did this structure make sense? I I mean like you know as uh you know just a trend of like what's happening in the financial services um you know like one is definitely like you know as we've been talking about a lot uh tokenization it just continue to

expand right like you know as we saw you know how the DTCC uh did the demo uh of the whole DTCC token you know we're a big part of it uh you know the whole industry is continued to accelerate uh moving uh towards this tokenization and onchain finance and the second thing is uh uh you know AI and agents I I feel like you know probably most of us are kind of getting tired of you know talking about it and like you know hearing about the word but [clears throat] but it's real like you know the the changes are real you know uh you know a lot of people are now interacting with the financial markets in a different way because of the Asians and you know like us being the API first uh infrastructure uh a lot of uh uh new participants are coming in so so I think

those big two two trends have been pushing our business exponentially and then of course like you know we see a lot of uh uh uh you know the fortunate to have like lot of amazing partners who want to be a part of our journey. So, uh you know we wanted to make this make this deal happen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you know you you guys me you mentioned that you know you are facilitating a lot of the clearing and custody for you know much of the tokenization market both >> that was that was that was my mistake. 95% not 85.

>> Mute it. Uh I think so. Um and so um as as I was saying, you know, you guys are are underpinning a lot of that market. Could you just walk us through like I maybe it is the the boring side of the business, quote unquote, but could you just help us understand like what role exactly Alpaca plays in this journey of an equity on chain, right? From origination to ultimately landing in a user's wallet. Where does Alpaca help facilitate that process? I think like you when we're talking about tokenization or assets on chain uh I think we talk about like you know what are the difference what are the changes that we're seeing through this whole you know paradigm shift and you know change of the uh industry I think we should be

also asking about what will not change and then like know what will not change in the financial services and capital markets is that how investor needs to be protected and that you know how uh you know capital markets is protected which means that there's always like segregation of accountability in terms of like you who are actually holding the assets uh in the right uh custody with the right guarantee and protection and then like who's actually uh u making sure the uh assets and uh cash or like whatever the stable coin is exchanged in the right way at the right timing. So all those things are happening behind the scene after the trades are made. So that's really like where alpaka comes in. That's what it means as the like you know clearing uh of the securities

meaning that we make sure that those uh uh uh you know the cash and the securities are exchanged in the right way and then you know we are also DTCC member uh custody as well. So we make sure that like you know all those things are correctly led and then in a very safe location. So again, it's not really something that um people get excited about because like people think this happens as a common sense, but in reality there are a lot of uh things happening behind the scene that uh to make sure that all those things are protected. >> Yeah. And there's a lot of technical design choices that go into this especially when we're dealing with institutional size capital and enterprise customers like this is the foundation that the entire world runs on. This is the world economy at stake here. And so we need to make sure that

we do a good job and these things are technically sound. And so, you know, as you're designing this and especially with the DTCC, I think it's, you know, I'm I'm very curious to learn more about that because DTCC is, you know, the depository and trust clearing house, right? It does and it has a lot of the custody and clearing house elements for the the traditional equities markets. And so when you're helping them establish best practices and helping to organize and clear and custody a lot of the equities that end up tokenized and onchain, what exactly does that relationship look like? How do you balance, right? Like, you know, I I take it that the DCCC

probably doesn't want to give up too much of their custody. Like they still want a part of this market. what you know as we're sort of rounding out this market, what is the DTCC doing and what is Alpaca doing and what are you guys doing together? What is the division of labor as we build out the uh the tokenized equities market? I think like when we're talking about this like tokenized equity market um we kind of have to think that what is a long-term where it will be uh which is it's pretty easy to think about where it will be which is going to be like everything will be issued on natively on chain and then like know transactions happening everything and recorded on uh on chain as well. So that's ideal and that's the

end state. uh I I don't think anyone disagrees. However, in reality is that we always have to think about what's in front of us immediately. What is a real problem that we are seeing that we can solve. So I think like you know those are the two things I don't think we should be mixing up while like you know we agree on the end state. there are multiple paths to get to the end state and I think like you know that is what DTC has been uh extremely proactive to make sure that how they can uh uh you know lead uh uh to solve the problem of what's happening right now which is like you know slowly but like steadily making sure that like actions are happening on chain so that it creates more flexibility more programmatic way of doing things and then also the you know

fastest pace of like money movements so um I think like you know that is what DTCC is definitely taking a lead of doing that and a lot of financial institutions are part of this project. Uh and especially for us as Alpaka um you know we have we're fortunate to be uh uh behind the scene for multiple tokenized equities uh efforts uh you know publicly uh talked about like you know Kraken and Onondo and like you know Binance and all those guys. So we have a lot of uh uh uh experience now uh dealing with the multi types of uh uh chains and then uh you know dealing with some of the uh uh uh you know the the uh like you know wallets and all those things. So uh being able to offer that kind of experience and then how things should work uh with the team at DTCC uh

has been extremely fruitful conversation discussions in last uh six months. >> Yeah. And obviously Coinbase and now Robin Hood are are really pushing forward their tokenized equities playbooks. Um, another another question I have here is, you know, maybe just help us, you know, help educate us, right? Because, you know, we we came from the cryptonative world, right? Learned about digital assets before we learned about brokerage accounts and equities, right? So, this is very very native and familiar to us. Is it the same in the sense that, you know, these tokenized equities are just they're ERC20 tokens or, you know, they're NF?

Are they NFTts because you need to program in KYC? like help us understand some of the technical design choices. What is the right way to do custody for tokenized equities and what is the wrong way? Help us understand some of the the the variables here. Of course like right now when people talk about tokenized equities uh there is not it's not like only one format of the tokenized equity that makes this whole conversation is extremely complicated because when we're talking about tokenized equity some people say that oh this has to be a natively onchain issued token and some people say no no no no this is always underlying securities that's backing one to one of the tokenized equities. So there are multiple formats and these are

all different even though we're using the same word of tokenization and the same wording of the tokenized equities. >> With that said uh uh formats of that's being issued uh you know it can be a token which means because like it's on the on chain and then how you custody of course is going to be uh it can be uh scattered around the you know D5 as well D5 wallets. So which means that uh you will be able to get the right benefits of uh holding them into the uh uh defy wallets. So those are the things that you can get the very similar way of holding other uh uh tokens as well.

However, um you know obviously I think like you know this clarity act as well like I think SEC has been very clear about in terms of the legal and then uh uh perspective of things uh even though it's maybe format is token uh it's legally considered as security. So like you know how it's being treated will be like a security instead of a token right. So it's going to be uh uh not like exactly same as like know our traditional way of thinking that oh this is a crypto token >> but but uh uh the formats and structure uh is going to be similar and the risk profile is going to be of course very different because of the formalities of it and then there there are multiple so

I don't think we should say because this uh uh ono token is this hence what the security is doing is that you know it will not be the same it will be always different and we have to look into it one by one and each of them has pros and cons. >> Yeah, I and I appreciate you unpacking that because there is nuance. I mean, we've learned and went through this process when it comes to blockchain archite architecture. We know like different L1s have different trade-offs and different L2s have different trade-offs and so there's plenty of ways of doing things and and like you mentioned, these are all different. There's pros and cons of each with with respect to the DTCC. And I think we have Andy back now, so I I know he's got some things to ask you as well, but but before you pass it over, the the DTCC is

like one of the things that people are watching so intently, like very very curious because people realize they handle billions if not trillions of dollars of assets and I think they do something like quadrillions in terms of volume every single year. So this is just massive, massive scale. There's a lot at stake here. And so given that you guys are a very close partner with the DTCC, I have a feeling you guys, you know, you have some insight into the way in which we can expect this uh this transition into a tokenized world to come online. I'll just read, you know, a little bit of an excerpt here because uh the pilot is currently happening with over 30 financial firms. I think the

likes of Microsoft and QQQ were some of the first uh tokenized assets. Uh these are currently securities that are trading on public exchanges. They've since been tokenized. Now they can move freely across 247 approved blockchain ecosystems. Uh these tokens retain and this is I think is the key part which is not the same for every single tokenization model. But these tokens retain the same ownership, dividend and governance rights as legacy assets. Plus, they get all the benefits of tokenization like 247 uh settlement and access. And this is planned to uh to launch officially in October of 2026.

>> You know, people have say are saying October is going to be the bottom four cycle. All these kinds of things. Maybe it could line up. This is a potential catalyst that is on the horizon. Could you just fill in all is all of this true? Right. They get all of the same properties as typical equities plus they get the benefits of tokenization and is this thing still expected to launch in October of this year? Can you give us any more information that we might have missed? >> Yeah, I I think like you know the the on the surface what you're saying is all correct. However, there's a lot of nuances and details that we actually may not want to talk about uh because of the uh certain things uh very detailed but it creates a lot of differences. For

example, uh if you think about liquidity uh of the tokenized assets even though like it does carry the you know same beneficial owner and then same same entitlement same uh credibility uh on the counterparty risk and everything because of the it's DTCC sponsored um uh reality of the uh uh uh trading and settlement and clearing of that uh uh token is very different from the traditional finance uh uh uh you know stock right and then uh you know How it's different is that for right now like all the stock tokens, you have to preund the money to actually trade.

>> Yeah. >> And which is basically how the token works in the crypto world. Uh in the traditional finance equity world, it's T+1. So you don't have to preund it. You can do post trade settlement which creates extremely difference in terms of the capital usage by the uh uh people who's making markets and the uh you know the liquidity in the secondary trading. So this is a humongous difference that I don't think we have a really clear or right answer uh to solve this uh uh specific problem and point. However, uh uh Rob what you just said about like all those benefits. It is true. However, it doesn't mean that it's going to uh create the same benefits that we are expecting from those features. So I think like you know that is a still the

uh pro like you know specific problem and point that we are discussing how to address it and how to make it better because at the end of the day like equities US equities is not something that you buy and hold and that's it. This is this is the assets that people trade and have a liquidity as you were saying like a quarter trillion dollars of the uh trading volume that's happening every year and and we have to figure out how to move the transactions and the activity uh on chain somehow and right now uh how it's settled cleared uh is not really supporting the uh uh you know the potential right so >> yeah and I I spoke to um I spoke to >> I think we still got you muted >> dude what do you mean you got me muted

so Um, okay. I mean, uh, Yoshi, I think that's a very like thoughtful point of view because there's a lot of nuance here. Yeah. Um, and there's a lot of different ways of going about this. And so, as we're thinking through, are you saying that, you know, bringing these things onchain actually make them less capital efficient or this is just a problem that we have to solve? And now, uh, once we do solve it, then we get to make all of the idle capital that is there for settlement, we get to make that a lot more productive. So I think like you know just like uh declaring that bringing assets on chain uh is uh uh less capital efficient that that's also not uh you know not the right statement like I was just talking about uh currently tokens are uh you know

preunded to actually trade and I think like it's the same for like any crypto or you know the crypto assets right you have to preund and that's why uh counterparties uh have to provide huge uh balance sheet or credit line so that like you know people can uh market makers can trade with hugely liquidity. So that that is the I think the point that I was trying to make. Of course like you know having the assets on chain is much like in a broader sense much more capital efficient because like you know it moves faster it's programmable and then because it's going to be the same layer of the wallet uh which means that you can cross collateralize and and you can borrow money against it. So it's going to be so much more capital efficiency. But we're talking about very specific uh uh point of this uh uh

secondary trading uh of the tokenized stock that we are talking about and it's going to be solved and it's going to be a structure uh that you know we are already discussing uh that should be addressing this point but as of today uh we definitely have to figure this out to make sure that that gets solved. >> Yeah. Very cool. I appreciate you walking through the nuance here. I think we got Andy back. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think I was always it was Anyway, um I was talking to Arouch here in the tokenization tower. I don't know, a couple weeks ago about the the post trade settlement and preunding work that you guys are doing. And you know, weirdly, we we did a workout in Ken one morning in in ECC in like April, and he was kind of alluding to more of like the

business lines that you guys have. And I'm just really curious from your perspective about when you were pitching these um investment firms on this race. Obviously, you know, you guys are already were at this billion dollar valuation. Uh I coined this term revenue meta like a year and a half ago. The whole space is like obsessed with revenue and people are like thinking about businesses and you know PMF and you guys are clearly um you know doing a lot of uh work within the tokenized equity market to kind of create new efficiencies and then also charge for these features and fees. Could you just give us like a sense of your revenue lines like what they look like from the business perspective? Obviously, you know, not exact numbers, but I would be curious like what is driving the most amount of revenue like per uh

percentage- wise and what those lines are. >> So, I think like you know, in in the uh uh beginning of the year, uh like we did disclose that uh it's a triple digits uh million dollars of the revenue that we have. Uh and then since then uh the beginning of this year, we're growing uh exponentially from that as well. So uh like you know you can kind of guesstimate uh you know how much of the scale that we we've been achieving. Uh and then uh in terms of the uh you know business revenue uh um I think like you know our business continue to anchor uh in the uh of course like you know the financial services and traditional finance and our ethos and then uh uh how we see the world is the crypto or digital assets or onchain or

tokenization or traditional finance is just becoming into one financial services. So we don't really don't want to separate things into okay this vertical uh or or digital assets or this vertical is traditional finance or crypto because that will slow down the innovation and we are not doing that intentionally uh even inside the company as well. So it's all mixed up and it it should be mixed up otherwise I don't think we can uh uh uh deal with the uh things that's happening like even this DTCC demo run or like you know working with a lot of tokenization projects.

>> Yeah. And that that ultimately, you know, speaks to the effect of these things integrating and converging into just finance, right? And and we understand how that works. Just to double click on on, you know, the the question by Andy, you mentioned, you know, tripledigit millions is is, you know, tremendous. Who are your customers? Like are they mostly coming from the issuance side? What just speaking a little bit more to these revenue lines? You know, who are the ones that you guys consider customers and you're working for? >> Of course. Of course. So like you know we our our business is really again building the brokerage infrastructure and and it's a very kind of word that's very vague but but what we do is really we're building uh what's so called mid office back office operations as a

service. So when you anyone any companies any business is interacting with the financial markets capital markets someone has to take on this uh again boring work of the middle office back office operations and that's what we're doing and then like you know the interface to that uh uh uh outsource mid office back office uh license compliant operations uh happened to be uh API for last uh you know seven years and now of course there's a you know MCP uh it's a humongous uh usage coming from that so whoever uses that and connect to our brokerage infrastructure uh is our clients. So those are like you know businesses like you know trading apps, banks, uh wealth advisors you know who have to deal with some securities right

USA equities or fixed income or uh you know whatever that they're using for their end customers and then there are also a lot of institutions or even individuals who want to programmatically access those asset classes like you know algorithmic trading uh or you know market making uh they're also our customers as well. >> Yeah. And Yoshi, obviously there's a lot of financial services companies out there. What is the competitive advantage of using uh Alpaca's financial services API brokerage infrastructure? Is it the ability to cross into both of these worlds? You guys have these things integrated, right? And so someone who is now, you know, maybe there was a crypto native, now they're going into equities or vice versa, there was an equities company, they're going into crypto because alpaca spans both, that is a

competitive advantage beyond some of the existing financial services technology companies that are available. >> Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And then I think like financial services uh in a way very simple uh compared to like you know tech and software to create the uh mode uh because like financial services is extremely licensed heavy business. So one uh big uh like not innovation but like you know differentiation is how how deep you own your license license stack. So that's actually very very important thing and it takes money it takes capital it takes time. However, that is really important and then we happen to have like you know so many licenses approved uh uh from multiple uh regulators including memberships from like DTCC and everyone and we have that uh uh expanded all over

the world as well not only in the US but also Japan, UK, Europe, uh India and now we are working on uh several countries as well. So those things do matter as a differentiation. And then another thing is that a lot of financial institutions traditionally uh tend to outsource uh lot of systems and ledger management to the uh third party companies because this is extremely mission critical components. So usually financial institutions used to not to build those things inhouse. So that's creates like uh inefficiencies because if you're coming from tech it's pretty common sense that you build your stuff by yourself right?

>> So you know we are a tech company. So we built it ourselves all proprietary system. So those are the kind of two verticals that uh we are making huge differentiation that's allowing us to be very flexible so that we can handle you know stable coins to cash and multiple money movements uh dealing with multiple chains and then also like our offering of the pricing becomes very low because we have internalization so our running cost is very low. So those are the probably the very simple differentiation that we have. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then kind of applying that differentiated framework to kind of a tactical or practical example here.

Robin Hood change kind of launched their mainet a couple weeks back. You know, people are excited. They're all these vampire base attacks thing. There's all this rhetoric of course you know every time. So um there's this interesting dynamic there where you've got a distribution uh you know channel like Robin Hood with their own direct connection to the DTCC to brokerages. They have all the licenses that you know exist on this entire earth and they're basically like hey we have this blockchain and we have a very seamless way to tokenize these assets because we have such a a grip on this market with our current product stack. bringing them onchain is is quite simple because we have um you know this entire setup

offchain already and we obviously we have all the customers and so I'm just curious like your take on that evolution like we haven't seen anything like this yet right where it would be like if you know Charles Schwab was like we're going to launch a blockchain right and it's like whoa okay uh obviously that's a you know a brokerage and not a Robin Hood but you know effectively it's like a kind of a zero to one moment for tokenization what's your take on this what's reaction to it. What are some of the things that people may misunderstand about how the tokenization of equities with Robin Hood may work? Um, just kind of fill us in here on uh your your take or if you're working with them. Yeah, >> I think like you know tokenization is just uh one one of the uh uh uh very uh

uh like kind of gravity that you know things are moving towards. So I think like including Robin Hood and there will be multiple institutions who's going to uh do the same thing uh just as we've been seeing and and I think at the end of the day everyone has to do that. So uh it's not like you know the one company is specifically unique or not. Uh so that's how I think about the tokenization in general and I think like you know why you touched on the distribution. So distribution is another different thing right because like distribution in the Robin Hood case they're uh you know US headquartered amazing company I'm a big fan uh and then they have like multiple licenses globally however uh you know on the planet earth there are 8.5 billion people and then there are like 195

different countries and so many different languages and so many different cultures. So uh it is always becomes difficult uh to have the uh every single distribution to every single uh person on the planet by one way of the approaching things and I think that is a reason why we continue to have so many different community banks, commercial banks uh even like you know crypto companies like who you know who have a fan of a lot of like cryptonnative people who just you know uses the uh crypto apps instead of local brokerage apps or banks and there are so many ways to approach money and financial services and I think that's so much fun that is like amazing part of this financial services and fintech because it will be always some new way and then this like you know the weird

way to offer the accessibility and distribution >> and then we can continue to find a new one so we can always have something to talk about. Uh so so that that's how I feel about distribution and what Robin Hood is doing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just feels like it was a bit of a breakthrough there in terms of tokeniz equities. And then you know the question ask Yoshi is like all right tokazization then what or why and I think uh for the first time we're seeing now on Salana uh you know liquidity pools be built up on Jupiter for um tokenized equities and same thing on Robin Hood chain with different iterations of actual depth for tokenized

spot equities on chain uh on on on Hyperlid on unis swap and on Jupiter we're seeing that and so definitely just an exciting time and yeah man thanks for the thanks for the insights congrats on the raise yos