🚨LIVE: Capital Summit In Miami Beach Consensus Week

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Heat. Heat. 17 floor. We'll see you around the timeline.

Feels good to be back. I think the rollup is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding into my library potentially multi-chain deployments. We are at the neck day one here. I'm guessing from base. Heat. Heat.

JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. >> So bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat. Corola is headed to the top. If we're

not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. Zoom out. The institutions aren't

coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. by our friends. Welcome to the Capital Summit in Miami Beach. Our friends at Kaledan and 071 Labs putting on this amazing event today. Uh the place is getting filled up already and it's a good vibe. Yesterday we had I think we had a six-hour marathon, guys. So I think we had 15 guests. So many so many solid kind of cryptos in it institutional era. And uh some people find it boring, other people find it fun. I mean to each their own. Adapt or die. Ladies and gentlemen, we have our

first guest today, Guy Wallet of A6Z Crypto, following their massive raised announcement. Guy, congratulations. Welcome to the show, man. >> Thank you for having me, Andy. I'm fired up. It's good to be here. >> Big day, huh? >> It's definitely a big day, I think, for for us and and hopefully for crypto as a whole. >> How do you feel? >> Uh well, I think I'm I'm pulsing a little bit. There's a great vibe here today. It's it's fun to be with you. I feel like uh you know this conference and this week really epitomizes what you were just saying that crypto is certainly in its institutional adoption era. I think it's no mistake we're both wearing a collared shirt%. I would say crypto has graduated from, you know, the hoodie and the, you know, the [ __ ] you flip-flops to a collared shirt and, you

know, maybe a chance to broaden beyond the crypto native audience today. Bring financial services and new products, not just to, you know, the small audience that is interested in onchain that's watching here today, which we love, but also to, you know, people like my mom and dad, the relatives, uh, and, you know, hopefully billions of people around the world, especially in developing countries who, you know, need the products and services that that we're building, I think, in a real way. >> Yeah, man. I mean, the part of the kind of raise announcement that immediately stuck out from the headlines was crypto pro uh products or projects that people can actually use >> and I think that is somewhat polarizing probably by design. Um, explain to us maybe what that is at the high level and and we can get into the raise and get

into the vision. >> Products that people can actually use is surprising and controversial. I would I would think that products people can use is kind of the point of the product. >> Correct. >> If that's controversial, then I think we need to like, you know, bring the ante up a little bit. You know, people need to have more more interesting opinions. I I think if crypto does nothing else uh as an industry and a product, we will deliver stable coin denominated neo bankanking to the developing world and that will offer the opportunity to then give uh wealth management, saving, investing, credit lending products not just to you know people in in the first world but people in the third world and I think as you were uh you know alluding to we've seen a lot of adoption and interest from traditional finance to move on chain. I think it's interesting

and ironic. You know, I I would have self-described as a died in the wool cipher punk. A lot of the friends I have from that era uh are maybe a little bit less excited about the modern era, whereas most of the people that I went to college with who've gone and done some, you know, uh investment banking, private equity job, call me and ask me, you know, I keep hearing about stable coins, I want to get promoted, like how how do I, you know, use this in our in our business? And so it it feels like we're really in a kind of a market analing process where crypto has grown and changed a little bit and is really starting to understand kind of the customer profile of existing financial market infrastructure. And I think with the passage of Genius last summer and a lot of the progress we've had both in

terms of regulatory guidance and moving uh hopefully towards clarity uh uh you know hopefully being passed in the US that that has created the opportunity for a lot of people that have seen the value of crypto products for a long time to finally start to adopt them in a in a real way. And so uh you know that's a lot of how we're spending our time today and and you know part of what has fired us up to to raise a new fund. Yeah, man. Do you find it that it's slightly boring >> to actually invest in and build real products, right? Like we've had this era of seven years or so, perhaps even longer >> that was predicated on a lot of fun on chain by the by the you know by the means of speculation of trying new products.

>> Yeah. And in that kind of phase, we unlocked anything from an AMM with a x y equals k um you know kind of like uh actual model there per we kind of unlocked a lot of you know digital collectibles a lot of these kind of zero to one ideas and then it feels like the industry is kind of struggling now with like what's that big next unlock and perhaps it's not boring but it's actually taking what we've built on the infrastructure side and applying it now to a lot of these real world use cases. Robbie and I have this thing on the show where it's like a lot of the innovation is actually happening in the institutional sales side, in the regulatory side, and in the implementation side and less so on the kind of trying to figure out what the next best TPS kind of mark is or what

the next kind of like execution layer can be. Feels like a lot of that has been built. We have stable coins. We have, you know, privacy being implemented very quickly. We have a lot of what we kind of, you know, need. And so now we're in this implementation phase. That's that can't be boring. >> No, I I I don't think it's boring at all. I think uh you know, crypto evolved out of an interest in distributed systems research is kind of the underlying academic principles and that and that's definitely the perspective I came from. I think for better or for worse, we've done such a good job that that is no longer the bottleneck, right? uh to to your point I think a lot of the bottlenecks certainly are about go to market but are also about understanding really in a very specific tangible way

uh how we're going to change some existing you know financial workflow or infrastructure and I would say that is kind of the opposite of boring that's incredibly complicated itself and I feel like uh you know it's something that uh the industry as a whole needs to do a better job of of understanding and and have more of a focus on uh I also think the same sort of person that was very interested in mechanism design in kind of a DeFi, you know, foodcoin era. Uh the same work you've been doing for years is now incredibly relevant. Uh but we don't have kind of the same asset problem where a few years ago a lot of the tokens, you know, did not have cash flows, did not have economic rights. Uh and frankly probably were not that interesting to people outside of kind of, you know, a cryptonative audience

who intuitively understood the culture. Uh which, you know, I love and I think is fun. But we also have to offer products and services to people beyond, you know, the the crypto Twitter audience. Sure. >> Uh and so I I think it's it's not boring. It is us taking what we've built very seriously and instead of saying, you know, this is a fun toy that we get to play with, uh this is actually the way the world should should work and operate. And so I I I think that's absolutely the direction we should be we should be moving. and uh you know having spent some time especially this week as you were alluding to uh maybe with some of the more institutional finance people sure >> I think after work they're pretty aware of how to have fun too so it's it's not a boring time

>> yeah I mean I think this this era of the industry is very much institutional adapt or die from a founder perspective from any sort of company in the industry how does your thought process around the types of founders that you want to back how has that changed as you are now also operating in the same understanding understanding of well, you know, there's a real product strategy that needs to be had here. There's a real actual business model. There is a distribution plan that that, you know, needs to be properly executed. There's quite a few factors here um going into making a really quality investment into what I would consider some of these new era founders, right? And I it's almost like this web 2.5. It's like a lot of these kind of fintech type founders are having a lot

of recent success with their raises. How are you identifying and thinking about the archetype of a founder and a company which is going to succeed in this potentially more difficult and more and certainly more sophisticated space. >> Yeah, I I think it's not just about inventing a new piece of technology anymore. It is very much about the ability to bring that to market to really understand your customer very well. uh and whereas I think when crypto was a totally blank slate uh it was not a huge advantage to have had a long career working in you know an adjacent field today I I I think you know we have a really good sense for what some of the use cases will be uh it's still pretty complicated to build uh a lot of the products that we would like and to kind

of fit them into the the way existing FSIs want to consume them or uh you know to build uh kind of modern uh retail exchanges certainly I think there's been an incredible amount of you know energy and effort poured in there and it's still you know a very sophisticated technical challenge but a lot of the issues are are you know largely focused on go to market as as you were articulating uh and I I I think just to be very direct about the talent flow crypto really owned kind of the the researcher for many years the the kind of computer science academic or the gigabrain who likes to spend their their time reading white papers I think a lot of those people have probably rightly so gotten AI psychosis I was talking with someone just outside about, you know, how they're they're timing their sleep

schedule around when Claude will finish so they can wake up and, you know, issue the next prompt. Uh, but fortunately, the work that was done over the last, you know, many years put the infrastructure in a place where I think a lot of the, you know, challenges or bottlenecks for, uh, us to really win and kind of get everything that we wanted. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Are mostly on kind of the the business and go to market side. So, uh, we've seen a lot of people come out of banks, asset managers, fintech companies, uh, and decide to to start their own project. And it's been, you know, an area that that I'm excited about. And if I've just, uh, you know, described you, please let me know. Exactly. And we'd be very interested in talking about, uh, working together.

>> Yeah. Guy. And so that's kind of like the founder archetype and the kind of understanding of what that looks like >> on the sector specific kind of thesis. Do you guys have a sector specific or a more broad approach to this fund five $2.2 billion dollars? Obviously, you're looking probably more into the series A range to actually, you know, deploy maybe 50 to 100 checks out of this fund, not 500 to a,000. Um, you know, what is the sector specific thesis that you guys have for fund five? Yeah, I I think we still view blockchains as coordination layers and think they're they're a general purpose technology, but I think in in the short term the products that obviously have product market fit are stable coins and pers. And I think a lot

of what is working on chain today is a second or a third or you know some nth order effect of either stable coins or per uh and so that's you know a lot of our energy and interest. I think it's also impossible to ignore the fact that agents are really working and the existing financial system is not built for them. uh and so you know much of our time and energy has been spent thinking about you know how uh agents will be productive economic actors and I would say this is the one area where we see a lot of uh I would call them AI people not crypto people coming to us and and kind of understanding the the value proposition intuitively uh as opposed to I think there have been you know some attempts in the past where it's uh crypto trying to solve an AI problem and

now AI is saying you know I have a problem we we really need to to get this fixed and then I I I remain you know interested in things like physical infrastructure. Uh we have another team at the firm called uh the American Dynamism team. Uh and we, you know, spend a lot of time overlapped at the the intersection of things like compute markets or energy markets. Obviously, we've had an incredible capital investment in uh data centers and GPUs. Uh and I I think you know the market there is relatively immature and it's probably a pretty good fit uh for building you know new especially things around uh spot markets or derivatives for compute and energy on chain. So that that's been, you know, an interest area of mine. Uh I I think we're still pretty optimistic in the fullness of time about uh things like creator platforms and and

new consumer applications. Uh we had a pretty big shift from from a regulatory perspective where a lot of the products that the founders we worked with uh wanted to build were just not possible. And then almost overnight with the new administration, you had an open season. So I think that's why we've seen uh you know some of the more financial use cases do really well in the last year or two. Uh, and we've gotten, you know, some pretty positive signs out of the CFTC and the SEC recently. I think we're pretty optimistic about where where clarity is going. Uh, and so I'm hopeful that we will have not only success in, you know, the current explicit financial context and that we will, uh, fulfill our colored shirt era, uh, but also that, you know, in the fullness of time, uh, the products and services we talked

about for, you know, uh, creator economies, for things like NFTts, uh, will also, you know, come back. I have uh a card game sitting on my desk called Burn Rate. Yeah. >> Which is supposed to be farcical. Uh uh it was released in 2004 and the idea of the card game is to run a startup. You actually can't make money because the idea of a startup in 2004 was so heretical. And all of the idea cards were things that were supposed to be, you know, intentionally hilarious horrible ideas like magic internet money, uh an online butler, a pet food store or grocery delivery. And you'll notice this became, you know, Bitcoin, Chat GPT, Chewy, and Instacart. they they all became at least decacorns. Uh and so I think we'll, you know, perhaps have a have a similar thing happen over

the next few years. Uh you know, I'm I'm certainly optimistic about that and and I I keep the the card game as a reminder that uh you know, an idea that was once compelling and and didn't work the first time usually comes back and and has some some great success. >> Boy, do I have some deals for you guy. I tell you that much. I've got a couple that are looking great right now, especially in in the more sophisticated Trady experience realm. Like here's how we're going to improve something materially on chain, right? Like very >> the the pitch decks have materially changed as well. I'm not sure if it's clawed or if it's just different founders making slides, you know, where it's it's uh >> it's certainly an interesting experience. You know, I I think the

value of spending time with people in person could not be higher. >> Sure. Uh so you know it's wonderful to to be here with you to to kind of be here in Miami for consensus and I think especially uh thinking of finance as an industry that operates on trust. You know the idea of blockchains is to build a a trustless system. Uh kind of the the importance of that human connection especially for the the founders and partners that we get to work with I think is has never been higher and will continue to be to be very very important. >> Yeah. In in the in the previous answer, you kind of laid out this track that I've been thinking about, which is very much like as a project accompany the space, you kind of have two options. And what we're kind of seeing is this

bifurcation here where you're going full institutional RWA, stable coins, tokenization, that's your big kind of like track. And honestly, a lot of these companies are kind of pivoting there as a means to basically grow their, you know, onchain capital markets, etc. or you just completely ignore that and you go fully onchain retail consumer maximum focus on everything that is going to be the future of what onchain commerce could be or on onchain kind of um trading and you kind of just completely ignore this track with with all the work and the KYC and the institutional load and all that and you just kind of focus and and these two tracks I think are equally investable and equally interesting completely different idea

sets completely different thought process on how the space is going to evolve, but I'm finding that there's kind of a messy middle now where if you're kind of like, yeah, we have some retail stuff and we're doing a little bit of of institutional stuff and here's, you know, it doesn't really work as well, I think, as as having a very clear direction in one of these two tracks. >> Yeah. Well, I I don't think it's a radical idea to say you should understand your customer really well, know what they want, and give it, you know, precisely to them. And and to kind of I I agree with what you said. I think you tweeted this the other day and I I was a fan of that articulation too.

Another way of putting this is you know crypto or blockchains are a general purpose technology and you can sell them B2B to kind of an enterprise audience that is adopting them or you can go direct and consumer and be B to C. I think for a number of years the only path is really B to C. Yeah. And so perhaps you know part of why so much of the kind of discussion or narrative is about B2B is because this is a new opportunity that I think is really opened up after you know Genius was passed specifically around stable coins and part of the hope is that uh you know that this will not just be focused on payments in stable coins but will broadly be transformative for finance and for capital markets. I I think uh you know what one thing that uh has kind

of surprised me but I I I think has been a useful uh analogy is that in a very similar way that that cloud wrought a digital transformation on almost every single business. Uh in many cases financial firms were a bit isolated from that and have been you know much slower to adopt cloud solutions than I think you know your your traditional uh enterprise. And so I I think there's a real chance that blockchains kind of become a digital transformation uh moment for Wall Street and for finance as a whole. So I I think you see a lot of consumer experiences leaprogging from you know uh no product or a very bad product today you know directly to the future. Uh and then in between you have you know big enterprises with much stronger distribution uh and in many

cases you know serving commercial clients as opposed to to retail clients uh who are going to take a little bit longer to uh to upgrade you know much longer sales cycle but I think will have a a similarly meaningful meaningful impact and in many cases it seems like uh big enterprises are looking at blockchains as an excuse or a shelling point to upgrade their core ledger. Uh and I I think maybe we take for granted because a lot of the kind of consumer internet experiences are so good today and you can you know vibe code in a few minutes on claude an excellent software experience and then you go and and you talk to someone that works in a bank and they have a server running on cobalt.

>> Yeah. >> It's it's a massive improvement even just to go to something that that we think of as being kind of kind of table stakes. Uh and so I think adoption here was really delayed for a number of years because of of regulatory reasons and finally that aperture has has opened. uh and and it seems to be to be working really well properly >> and as you mentioned kind of the B2B enterprise side was a bit slower to get adopted and it was almost because there was also this focus about ownership right your colleague Chris Dixon wrote read write own right there was this very libertarian this very ownership this digital property >> kind of pitched towards the average person who wants to take control of their digital identity their digital

finances etc era and then now that's kind of being applied to the more enterprise institutional land. I'm curious, you know, Chris obviously wrote that book, you know, what seven, eight years ago or so, maybe a little bit more. >> I think that was 2023. >> Oh, sorry. Three years ago. >> Listen, it feels like every year in crypto is a dog year. So, we're we're we're on the same page. >> It was more recent. Um, you know, with the with the lens of read, right, own, how do you think about that as it applies to Fun Five, right? Do you guys carry a lot of those same principles that Chris kind of articulated there as for the core ethos of what we're doing in in in this space and and you apply that to your investment thesis?

>> Yeah, for sure. I I mean if you actually read the book about 70% of it is explaining how blockchain infrastructure works from the perspective of a normal person. Sure. >> Uh and then you know the end of the book is trying to articulate some some use cases which hopefully will uh you know grow and scale over time. uh the you know one that has worked best today I think has been for financial services and and specifically if you go back uh Chris has an excellent articulation of of stable coins and and kind of the value of uh digital currency for for payments there. Uh I I still think you know a lot of that applies and I was uh uh it was very fun to get to go to F1 this weekend and we we got to spend some time talking with someone at a big asset

manager who's you know now running digital assets for for her team and her comment was uh I was trying to get my team to understand that crypto is not cryptocurrency. It's not an asset class that in fact you know uh crypto or as she would put it blockchain is a fundamental technology that will reshape how our business works. Uh and her comment was I bought you know read write own. I gave it to everyone on our team and you know finally they understood what I kept talking about in the meetings when you know I was really pounding this idea that we need to be a block adopting blockchain as a technology. Uh and so you know again I think maybe we are very deep in the trenches and take a lot of this stuff for granted but there's still a wide world of people uh even who are you know

working in very sophisticated financial roles uh who I think have a bit of a misconception about crypto. Yeah. You know, crypto usually means cryptocurrency. If you look at the titles of people running crypto teams at big financial firms, almost always they call it digital assets. >> Y that is the new framing. >> I think that highlights the fact that in many cases existing financial assets are literally not digital. Like it's a spreadsheet that references a piece of paper that someone holds in a bank vault. Uh and so when you think of that as the current incumbent status, uh you know, I I I think uh maybe we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. And it's very easy to say uh you know we're not making progress at the rate we'd want. I I think we're actually getting a lot of uh what we would have wanted five or 10

years ago. And uh I think it was maybe was tweeting that you know you revived Satoshi and said you know is is USDC or is stablecoin uh you know is that a cipher punked product? I think the answer would have to absolutely be yes. Yeah. you know, you you maybe look at uh the evolution of open source software as another comparison which started also as a very ideological movement uh and eventually you know became mainstream uh largely through GitHub which got bought by Microsoft. >> I think maybe a lot of the initial open source uh devotees were a little disappointed by that outcome but it was an incredibly positive shift towards open source and I think is one of the things that made software successful is you know the composability of open source code. Uh, so I I feel like we

wake up every morning and I feel like I'm winning. You know, to to par the Jensen quote, I did not wake up this morning a loser. Uh, and I think maybe too many in crypto, uh, too many people in crypto have have a bit of that mindset today. And, you know, if there's one message I' I'd like to convey, it's that I feel like we're winning. And, and, you know, we should, uh, be be doubling down on that that win, not uh, not capitulating. >> Definitely. And I think one of the big things about this announcement also Eddie the CTO of AS6 andZ crypto who's been working his ass off to build to probably do due diligence and all these founders and all the technology and all of this has now been also promoted to general partner. So he is also winning.

Any words on kind of what that means for uh A16D crypto and kind of the firm at large? >> Yeah, I think that's just an acknowledgement of uh the work Eddie's been doing for many years. uh one of my favorite people, one of my favorite Twitter accounts. If you do not already follow him, I'd highly recommend it. Uh I I think Eddie and Chris are both similar in that they're kind of philosopher kings, so to speak. Uh I I I feel like Eddie, you know, kind of both understands the literal uh technology and also, you know, how how it gets adopted well in in society. And I I I think, you know, if you talk to the founders that we work with closely, uh all of them will will sing his praises.

So I I could not be happier for Eddie and and you know one of my best friends and uh a treasured colleague. >> Beautiful man. Last thing for you guy. What when you think about you know going to deploy this capital over the coming years. You know the average fund lifespan gives you quite a bit of time here to to kind of allocate properly. But we are in a bit of a slow market right now. Sure today you know things look great but tomorrow and next week it could be back down and people are like it's all over again. It's it's the wor so back it's all over thing right now. Um, when you think about kind of timing, when you think about founders, when you think about allocating this capital, what are the core the core understandings and considerations to have as a team and kind of how do you

think about getting this out there into the market? >> Yeah, I mean the the goal is to, you know, invest this next fund over the the next two or three years and and kind of a a traditional venture cycle process. Uh, I think there are a lot of interesting opportunities out there today. uh you know the we're so back is so over cycle I I feel like is maybe uh amplified and uh trying to kind of tamp down your emotions is is maybe the the correct approach. >> Uh I think the world does not work in that way. I think you make a little bit of progress every day and eventually you look back and and there was you know some some great conquest involved in that but kind of the the nitty-gritty process I think a lot of venture capital is actually just a shoe leather business

to to use Chris's phrase uh where you have to you know take take the time to uh meet with with every single founder you can and and try to you know understand their vision of the future and then and then support them. So that's know that that's what we focus on every day and I I couldn't be happier to do it >> day by day guys congrats on the raise man. Thank you so much. It's great to be with you, >> guys. We're going to throw you on to the panels from yesterday. I think we had Robin Hood's head of GM, uh, Johan Kerbot. Uh, we had a great session with him. We're going to put them on to you there. And we'll be right back, guys. Welcome back to the show. >> Bigger. They've kind of brought the fun back into it, right? They've brought the

fun element there, but it's also rewarding. It's definitely useful and it's simple. >> I mean, you're a pretty fun guy. If you ever have chance to have a beer with this guy, it's a great opportunity. Rad, you're going to say something. So we, you know, we have a slightly different take. We think technology cycles are slightly like human cycles. First there's innovation, then there's excitement, then there's greed and then things typically fall off a cliff. Uh you know we are primarily investing in UAVs uh cyber security. A lot of uh uh infrastructure related projects. Uh also we are we think this is a great time to buy Bitcoin especially in extreme fear.

you know, you should scale in when there's adoption and then you should scale out when there's greed. You don't have to catch the top. You just need to take a chunk out of the middle. >> So, um, we think about tokeniz when we look at tokenization broadly and we think about where the opportunity is, I I I think you have to be really really careful about timing. First off, we are believers that all financial markets and all financial services from payments through the origination, trading, settlement, custody, etc. of all assets over time lives on blockchain rails. But as a venture investor, timing is really paramount, right? Like you can make a

lot of you can have a great view that you're too early on and that can be a fail. When we look at the universe of investable opportunities right now, I tend to look for opportunities like like I think this is going to be controversial to say. I think tokenized Apple stock is a yawn. And I don't think it's a yawn long term. I think at some point you're going to want in emerging economies the ability to not just hold US stable coins, but act US dollars and stable coins, but hold other assets that are dollar denominated.

But I think that's going to take a while. So where is the opportunity for us? And I spent before I got into I got into crypto in 2017 in an operating role uh at a company called Zapo which was one of the first uh custodians. I built the institutions business at Zapo. Before that I ran global emerging markets at UBS for 20 years. So I have a lot of experience in Tradfi. There are huge opportunities in emerging markets that are not about bringing tokenized stocks to Indonesia. They're about bringing big chunks of institutional capital into the payment systems and credit systems of EM countries. We just did a deal in Brazil for a company that's tokenizing credit card

receivables. Half of the Brazilian merchant economy operates on what are called installment payments. Typically six-month installment payments. Maria buys a dress at the dress store. She signs up for six installments, but she does it with a credit card. Well, the Central Bank of Brazil changed the law recently so that that receivable at the end of the day is actually guaranteed by the network itself. Who's the network? Visa and Mastercard. So you can offer significant yields if you have access to these receivables at scale out to institutional investors globally in a tokenized form >> type of financial instrument that they care about and crypto was one of them.

Um but it you know since then we listed more assets we started to offer staking in most of the states uh transfer we have our own self-custody wallet um and we also launched in Europe so last year we did north of a billion dollar in revenue just for the crypto part and so we are really excited to keep building on it and you know now the market is a bit calmer um but we are focusing on building the new feature that people will use the next time the market come back. >> Yeah like you said market is a bit calmer but prediction markets have been absolutely insane. You guys uh I have a stat here. Prediction markets surged 320% on Robin Hood. Why do you think the market is so crazy about prediction markets?

>> Well, I think it's a >> I I think you know it's a new way for people to invest. Um so for a lot of people before like they could not uh you know hedge against what are the feds going to do about the rates or what is the future of AI or what is the best uh company to to build uh a model but with prediction market and event contracts you really have different ways to actually hedge your portfolio. Um and I think that's something that is very new. So now if I want to uh you know invest compared to AI instead of trying to pick one specific stock like Nvidia, AMD or Microsoft or whatever I can actually uh pick one of the event contract that is about AI and actually have a lot more ways to invest in the market. So we

think it's a very different way that people didn't have access before and it was more reserved to very specific institution. Yeah. >> Um and so you know we're really excited. It's it's one of his uh fastest growing business at Robin Hood and so you know it shows also the power of our super app where you have everything within one app. You don't have to transfer money between the different platform um and you can go from buying stocks to buying crypto to buying event contracts. >> Yeah. Um one one followup question on prediction markets. Given the success of the prediction markets product and and like you said the super app concept of Robin Hood, do you intend on verticalizing more of the prediction market stack? Right now there's so much order flow going through Robin Hood. I

think maybe there's other exchanges that are, you know, settling some of these contracts. Do you think Robin Hood might internalize any of that market execution? Yeah. So we we think that the exchanges are almost a commodity at this point and for for like for any product that we launch we usually route to multiple exchanges. So it's the same for crypto, it's the same for equities where we la we route to multiple market makers. Um and so for prediction market we already route to multiple exchanges. We have uh Kali obviously but we also have forecastex. Um and we announced a joint venture with CEOA uh Rosera which is going to be an exchange that is going to support the type of event contract that we we care about and for us it's important because it will allow us to

really support everything that we want to offer to our customers. >> Yeah. when it comes to kind of integrating a lot of these under the hood products, right? Like as you said, kind of thinking about Robin Hood as an aggregator of crypto uh protocols and products. One that comes to mind obviously from a competitor is the way that Coinbase has done Bitcoin back loans with uh with Morpho. I believe that they've done this kind of setup where you can deposit your Bitcoin, borrow against it with stables. I believe you guys have also integrated or integrating lighter fors in the future. Um and and kind of think about how that works. How how do you think about building a crypto business with different product lines and utilizing the underlying tech, whether it be these onchain markets for lending, prediction

markets, per like is is Robin Hood crypto just going to eventually be an aggregator of all of onchain protocols kind of serving order flow to onchain protocols and and using them directly? like how do you guys think about that uh uh transition and kind of uh being the front end for a lot of the onchain uh products which don't actually have the best UX. >> Yeah, well that's really something uh that we focused for a long time. That's why we launched Robin wallet which is our self-custody wallet option. Um and the idea was to give you know all these customers that are used to the Robinood UX and UI and giving them the ability to go on chain and go on DeFi and to your point like uh interacting with some of these protocol is kind of daunting the

first time you're trying to do it or you always have to bridge you always have to think about gas so all of these thing we are kind of taking it away and abstracting it so that people don't have to always keep thinking about this but uh there is more we can do to your point like I think for example the the lighter investment we haven't done any integration yet, but we we are investing into um the the company. Um and we think that we can build on top of it. Um the other thing that we want to use is crypto as a way to kind of replace some of our backend system. So for example, we launched tokenized stocks in the EU.

Uh and where we are already with 2,000 stocks um US stocks and ETF that are like tokenized and available to our customers. And for us it was really important to make sure that uh we could offer like everything that tokenized assets can offer to customer from uh 24/7 to fractionalization to uh instance settlement. Um and so we can use a crypto rails for that replace slowly like the the old traditional system that we have and slowly we will be able to kind of bring all these advantages to to customer. And so in the EU for example, the markets are not always open when people are awake because of the time zone difference. But with tokenized stocks, they can actually use it at any time.

>> Yeah. Yeah. One of the biggest business lines for Robin Hood is options. I think I saw a stat it was up to about $4 billion a year in options just from either being on the other side of the trade or facilitating the actual trade itself, providing that market. People in crypto often say pers are a far better and superior product to options. Do you agree with this? What's your what's your take? If so many people are effectively trading zeroday options, why not just let them have per as a product comparison to kind of these shorter term options? And you know, I'm just curious like how you may see per evolving into Robin Hood's product suite.

>> Yeah, so we already offer per in the EU for example. uh it's somewhere where there's a clear regulation to to offer per so we've launched about 12 different contracts at this point uh with 10x and leverage um and so yeah we think it's an easier product for a lot of reasons like for example you don't have to manage the expiration dates constantly uh you also don't have to worry about uh all right guys we are back we are here at the capital summit today we have to tokenize capital summit today we're at the capital summit uh Miami is the cornerstone of capital this week. Uh there's no doubt about it. I'm here with uh Pay and Jamie uh from the Theoric team and we're going to be talking about AI and RWAS uh which feels like the two

hottest topics from everyone I've talked to here this week in Miami. Before we dig into uh some of the more the more technical concepts here, how are you guys finding Miami so far? >> It's a a very nice change in weather temperature coming from Boston. So yeah, I'm very happy to be here. >> Yeah. Uh Jamie, how about you? Any uh any any uh revelations so far this week? >> No, I mean I just got in uh yesterday. I actually drove in. So uh you know when that that West Palm Beach to to Miami uh corridor of 60 miles but took like three hours. So after that that was the revelation of uh I need to take a toll road maybe next but not I95 but uh yeah I just got in last night. So I'm talking

yeah a lot of RWA's AI as you said it's like two of the hottest topics tied together. So we're just excited to talk to people who are interested in that as well. >> I'll tell you I75 is not much better. >> Um yeah, so uh let's dig into it. Um I mean look, a AI yield I think uh ultimately is what everyone is aspirationally hoping for. Um you know, you look at the rise of of AI agent, you look at Claude Co-work, you look at OpenClaw, you look at all these things. It feels like we're closer than ever to hey Claude, make me a millionaire. Make no mistakes. People want the button where hey go make me a prediction market bot you know go out find me the best yield don't you know get me hacked like find me the best of both worlds find the

efficient frontier is this naive to think that we're going to get to this point aspirationally is this just out of reach what is the more pragmatic view of how we should be thinking about AI agents and agentic commerce onchain >> yeah I'll I'll start with some nontechnical take and then I'm sure Jamie has more of like a hands-on dayto-day experience with um AI and AI agents in the use of curation. Right? So to me that's a um it's a very obvious and um it's actually a very timely shift for every company every team in the space finance or crypto to be looking at AI and how to max how to maximize uh the application of AI in a meaningful way in their current product stack. So for us

and for me I think the AI solves the uh the human bandwidth problem um once and for all and it could be applied in different way to make that happen. But in a nutshell, I think um obviously the human uh hours and time is limited in a day. You only can in our line of work. If you want to curate and look at onchain asset, maybe one person could be looking at three asset classes across 10 protocols in three different chains, right? And then manage that risk, rebalance where possible, watch out for hacks, and watch out for the risk uh red flags. uh um but you still have to go to sleep at night and take some some of your weekends off, right? So, you're going to run out of your um bandwidth

very quickly. So, I think AI really comes in to address that um bandwidth issue, but also in doing that also lift the productivity of u humans. And in the curation world, I think uh AI can become that assistant. So you can be AI augmented and if you use the AI properly, the AI can help you uh discover properly uh opportunities much faster and cover the surfaces much quicker and also monitor risk in almost like uh more efficiently than humans. So I I'll pause there and see if Jimmy wants to add in.

>> Yeah, absolutely. So that's more the uh what I would say is the aspirational and that's what we're we're kind of hoping for uh day-to-day from the pragmatic point of view, right? You do have to realize like when you're using AI agents as you said like Claude go get me or Claw go get me you know a prediction agent that can make a million bucks make no mistakes I then have to go to institutions right we're talking RWA intersection right I have to go to institutions as a curator and they have a risk department right they have risk management so I think it is a little bit of right now you do feel like you're almost trying to get to the moon by making a build a bigger ladder or something like bridging a AI is essentially not a deterministic program right it's are ballistic under the hood

>> versus you've got people on the due diligence side that are asking you for something and that that may not fly right they want to know exactly what their risk is or at least you know what the models are and it spits out the same every time it's very deterministic so I do think that's where we right now are using it as augmentation but it's not that full loop there's always a human curator in the loop and human risk management right now if you want to you know to like pump the brakes a little bit >> absolutely I mean look there's a whole there's a whole tangent we could go on about you using the blockchain to make LLMs deterministic, but we're not going to go there. Um, we I you know, we we have been talking about how this starts to evolve based on this tokenization

catalyst. You know, we bring all of these assets, we tokenize them. There's this standard communication format. Ultimately, those assets do end up in a lot of these vaults, DeFi protocols. And and I think that's a a point where we start to see things get really really interesting on chain when these vaults are managing lots of capital. DeFi is really really liquid. Uh things get very very compelling uh from an allocation perspective. Now, when it comes to this vault complex, as we see more of this start to come on, it feels like AI could essentially upgrade the vault complex where, you know, we can do some of those risk controls, we can do some of those checks, and then we can also do very

creative rebalancing strategies across these different vaults. How do we get there? You know, we've obviously seen hacks, right, kelp down and the likes, and there's so many of them, you know, as of late. How do we take AI, which is a very very powerful technology, anything powerful you can use for both good and evil. How do we mitigate the evil and we really use it for good in both the risk control perspective and also maximizing the the the reward perspective? >> Yeah, I wonder if Jimmy wants you want to take that.

>> Yeah. No, absolutely. Well, first off, I mean, just to second your point, this this quarter one, so I've been curating because I was at a previous curator before for a couple years. Uh I think quarter one, early part of quarter two was by far the hardest uh from a risk perspective. I mean it just seemed like we were dodging bullets every week unfortunately. Um, but I think a lot of good is going to come out of it. And even like I like to use the example I use this at a at a different uh talk that I gave in in New York um of like how could AI help even on the risk uh management and I think a very like concrete example was uh something we were working on but we didn't have live would be like LLMs are very good at true

social X scraping that and saying like oh something weird and anomalous is going on. Do you think maybe say, you know, not I'm not funding anybody, but some of the curators that they had it set up where when resolve uh got compromised, they actually made it much worse by incinerating user capital by pouring in uh their automation before a human had to come in hours later and turn off the bot could. But yet on Twitter, if you followed yields and more and some of these others, you knew within five minutes that there was something up and you that's not something that you can really tell by a secondary market, right? Secondary market might be very liquid normally. So just because the secondary market dips and deps doesn't mean there's necessarily a problem. An LLM based uh security could have paused that right away, right? So that's like something

where it's very hard for a human to be awake 247 even if you're peptide maxing or whatever. Um so you're not going to be able to do that. But if you would have had a bot there that even on the defensive side, maybe more than alpha generation, defensive actions might be where we can uh deploy that first and have a lot less hacks and a lot less steps back which would be great for the for the industry right now because that's obviously a big problem. I don't know. Yeah, I also want to add by like um so the risk control set is really yeah like exactly echoing everything you said and and I think also like there's a a huge kind of um more experimental side of things like how do you use AI on upfront like a up front of the strategy making right like how do you use AI

actually to like you know we we think about the AI it's like obviously there's like amazing um amount of like open source like AI models you can leverage now to create interesting strategies you can train maybe like thousands if not tens of thousands of strategies or agents strategy agents simultaneously and have them bring you the ideas right the the power of using AI I think in the the new um era of asset management which in this case we're talking about onchain vault but it's really just like the infrastructure change right we're upgrading um assets to onchain assets tokenized assets but we're also using onchain infrastructure because that's the only option to facilitate the needs of the the new form of assets and AI really have to be there because we don't quite yet what's the best way to uh do

the portfolio and the strategy right so you need to optimize that and the only way to do that is like take all those like new forms of assets and put AI uh maybe train your AI models in a GPU or something like local and and and confined right but not like out there um and then give AI the very specific mandate which is like take all the information and understand all the regulatory arbitrage and understand all the market risks and different players in that market what's moving what's moving fastest and bring me the strategy that will be um actually landing in the market uh within the compliance and within the legal structure. So I think that upfront research and iteration of strategies is going to be super powerful. Who can actually master that is going to stand out like no question

>> and and where are you currently seeing those gaps? I know we don't have our agents, you know, right here at our at our fingertips, you know, to do this research, but um you know, you guys recently launched this gold vault, right? Uh the idea here is to earn some yield on some tokenized gold. Um that must have been a gap in the market. Um I think there is a very high demand for gold in general, but people don't really think of it as a yielding product. How do you guys start to bring people into that idea? >> We are um we're the first performing um tokenized gold fault on the market, especially in XAT, which is Tether Gold.

And I think it to your point it's a it's a blue ocean and it's a very new thing. We're uh we might be one of the first movers in that sense that we are actually not only take XUT as a we're taking a strategic back on this specific tokenized gold because due to its liquidity due to its leading position in market cap 3.3 billion out of six billion right like in tokenized gold on chain and the overall RWA is at 30 billion. So just do the math right. So we took XUT uh we also used the you know we decided to do a vault product specifically to that asset because we believe that there's going to be a lot of incoming interest. Maybe family offices and institutions have been waken up to the fact that they need to hold an asset that is so solid

>> but also so um portable, programmable and can now generate yield. Because historically um owning gold means you have to pay for warehouse cost and you have to pay tons of like things, right? But then you're not getting any native uh natively embedded yield off your gold. But once golden now is onchain and um you have a whole new DeFi world to deploy this tokenized um gold um to those protocols and generate a very safe and predictable yield. And I think that's an incredible market opportunity. And we it might be looks like a little controversial or maybe not as common as a stable coin vault where it's crowded and people you know deliver maybe 10 15% we're only delivering 5%. But I think

that the 5% is very incredible in from you know from the perspective historically it's 0%. >> Right. Exactly. And so that kind of negative right negative carry with the interest costs and carry costs. Yeah. >> And and so that kind of leads me to my next question which is where where the yield comes from. You know, you mentioned stable coin vaults, maybe a more natural fit for some of these things. We have sovereign debt. We have bonds. You know, typically I think risk-f free rates, you know, 4% or so, you know, maybe just under. >> Um, and so, you know, there's a native yield component to something like a stable coin, but there's not too gold. Where does the yield come from in in gold?

>> Yeah. So that's actually why we we chose uh Tether Gold first off is because they have uh liquid onchain uh markets like stakehouse has morpho market against USDT. Uh a of course obviously uh you know for there the the rate spiked a little bit of recently but they're back down. um they actually have XCUT has accepted collateral um isolated so you can only do a few stable coins against it but uh there are onchain liquid markets on both mainet and plasma um because it's tether products of plasma of course um so that's why we started with them because it's easy to start and essentially we can borrow against it very easily we can then generate yield and then we can mark it back either with spot or with we always do spot right now because it's easiest but you could also use perspect um so those are the two options and then

essentially you have now gold that is returns yield that is denominated in gold which in Tradfi you know there are some uh products but like for instance leasing your gold you're actually leasing your physical right but you have to lock it up and you know there is counterparty risk and usually it's only a couple percent gold leasing um also there is some there are some other like ETFs built on top of it but a lot of them are more like uh not to get too technical on it but like buy rights or cover calls on top of it that are that cap your you know so on these extreme gold rallies you would give up some upside whereas this is actually just pure gold deni, you know, yield on top of gold. And then the hope is this is where DeFi comes in. So now why would

you do that in DeFi? Well, now you could use it as collateral, maybe make a correlated morpho market, obviously correlated decks, and now you can actually, and I think this is interesting, not just for tether gold, but for niche issuers where people go, why should I I I can tokenize my gold, but why? Now you could have a yield bearing product that then can go into these other D5 products very naturally as opposed to being like shoehorned in. >> Yeah. And and you mentioned one of the biggest advantages here is the native component. You know, if I'm owning gold, I have exposure to gold. I don't want the yield in dollars or bitcoin. Like I want the yield in gold.

>> Yeah. And and this is true of all sorts of RWAs. Um and so, you know, starting with gold, uh now expanding outwards, uh what does the asset universe look like? What are some of the RWAs that you're targeting to start to bring into the loop and maybe start to package up with gold? You know, are you looking at Bitcoin? looking at other, you know, uh, native products or maybe, you know, you're looking outside the box. People have talked about tokenizing the wildest things on this show. So, I'm just curious where your head's at. >> Yeah, I think between yesterday and today, I've heard anywhere from like tokenizing a movie and to tokenizing real estate to tokenize F1 uh, vehicles and then and maybe some other I don't know like I think I might have like forgotten like how like the the amount of exot exotic type of like nature of

those assets they're trying to tokenize. Truth is yes it is like a huge kind of opportunity set um for us I I I think realistically we wanted to approach uh the prioritization of assets for curation um whether due to the soundness of the underlying asset so I think gold kind of checks that box it's like the most the hardest collateral in history right and stable coin due to you know regulatory monetary policy like a risk and sometimes it might not be as good um then The second is a I think inevitably you have to check the liquidity readiness of uh those assets. So that's where I think um generally speaking tokenized stock ETFs and um those trefy

widely adopted um assets now are widely distributed through fintech worlds and uh consumerf facing apps are naturally a very good next step in my view right because you don't have to worry about um having to do the early like the education with the audience um people understand that that this is like very liquid very uh transferable and uh they can they can offload it they can gather more of that assets and also it's very usable right if you take it like Jamie said use it them as collateral for lending and borrowing then there's there's no shortage of revenues to do it >> yeah no I was going to say is I mean gold is is for those reasons is why

we're we're staking there but you're you're absolutely right I mean if we can show that we can you know curate well and our and our hope is you know grow TVL and get distribution obviously ly with gold for those variety of reasons that she already said was a natural first choice because it makes it easier. But there's certainly other assets that you could go or other strategies, right? Even within gold, like why couldn't you do uh you know certain stuff like buy rights or or wheel strategies or whatever it is that that they sometimes do as like structured products? A couple of them are on exchanges, but some of them were more like structured products and stuff if the demand was there. But we wanted to start with something that we felt like people could understand a little easier and certainly had more TVL already there. But you're exactly right.

I think about a lot of variable rate prefers like the stretch, right? STRC, right? That's been a big uh topic of late even been getting tunched and having different payouts there. We would certainly be interested in looking at that. But, you know, it's one of those things, you know, where we want to kind of have some good products uh first and kind of establish a foothold because it is a blue ocean or, you know, uh it is so new um as far as tokenizing gold and earning yield in gold and then we think naturally you would have those conversations kind of blossom out of that. >> Yeah. Incredible. Uh Jamie and uh and pay, thanks so much for joining. Um and it and it really feels like you've got, you know, you got a foothold here with gold and now a wedge into the rest of

the market. Uh where can people get involved? Where they can where can they find the vault and uh start to get their hands on some tokenized gold yield? >> Yeah, so you can uh certainly read more about um our activities and the most um recent news about Theoric and Theoric Gold on by going to our um X account at uh Theoric AI. So, t- o r iq ai um or visit our website and uh you can deposit make a deposit in gold vault um either through the website or yeah, you can find the links on the Twitter account.

>> Incredible. Thanks so much for coming on, guys. Appreciate it, man. >> Absolutely. >> All right, guys. We will be right back with our next guest. Uh stay tuned. Don't go anywhere. Thank you. Was it good? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. market is going crazy, right? And it's absolutely mooning. It's like people are very excited about it, but there's not really a way to trade that on chain right now. Same with like these uh finally we've gotten like the pre-market IPOs for some of these AI companies, but

there's also a ton of Chinese IPOs and pre-market uh AI Chinese companies that people want to get exposure to. Deep Seek's doing a funding round right now, I think, at about a $20 billion valuation. How how quickly can you guys move on this? Like how quickly can the expansion of listed assets as the tokenization kind of mania continues? Can Robin Hood be very fast to to list tokenized assets across tons of different jurisdictions? How much kind of uh friction is there to actually get those listed on the front end? >> Uh it will depend depends of the the asset, depend of the regulation that we have around it. Um but overall, you know, we we have a way to build technology that uh we we've been piling on for the past 10 years. Uh we have one

of the strongest engineering team in in the valley in my opinion. So um if at some point we're able to do something on a regulatory front where we're able to move very quickly. So we've seen it multiple time for example with AI adoption in our products uh we I think are one of the brokerage that's added uh the most AI system within the company. So uh if you go for example on a on a coin detail page or on a stock detail page will give you a digest of what's going on on on the market. And uh that was one of our top requested feature. people wanted to understand like they receive a notification the price of a stock of a point moved, why is that? And so we we created this digest. Um and we also have the cortex assistant where you can actually discuss a bit of strategy

with with the assistant and really find ways to to improve. And so it just shows you that uh when Robin Hood has an idea, we we can move very quickly on it. And on on this tokenization front, this feels like it's caught everyone by storm uh including the DTC who came out and they they announced that they have this development of this tokenization service. 50 plus firms are included in this uh this cohort. Robin Hood is included. Can you just give us a sense of what this DTC uh tokenization service is going to mean for companies like Robin Hood? It's slated to go live October 2026 is when it's going to go into production. How do you see this progressing? What does this mean for Robin Hood?

>> Well, I think, you know, for us, it's always really important to partner with firms like this like we we want to make sure that if there is a tokenization effort, we actually support it. For a very long time, we've been very loud saying that, you know, T+1 settlement is too slow and that we need to to get to a place where we can go a lot faster and we want to get to 247 trading as well. Um, and so for us, we want to support any type of air force like this and that's why we we we are part of this one as well. Um but you know at the end of the day I think tokenization is just like the next uh phase of the technology where you'll have to either adapt or you will basically die because nobody will want to go back to the old traditional

system. Um and so it makes sense for for all this company to to adapt the technology and to start building on it. >> Yeah. One lesson for you. I know you have a panel to go to which I'm sure is going to be great. People on Twitter like to compare Robin Hood and Hyperlid. They like to stir the pot by saying uh you know by comparing revenue metrics, valuations, users, scale, and make an argument for both sides, right? And so I I'm curious what your take is on Hyperlquid. Is this a competitor to Robin Hood in the future for Robin Hood crypto? Do you not really worry about what they're doing? People are like, "Should I buy Hood or Hype?" People are like, "Hype's a better deal. Why would I own Hood?" There's all this back and forth, man. What is it like from from

your perspective to watch the the rise of this kind of massive purpose decks come on chain and really try to be like a a center of gravity for uh bringing a lot of offchain and onchain prices uh or price discovery on chain. What does this mean? >> Yeah, you know, for us it's two different type of businesses. You have one that has regulation and licenses and you have one that is fully decentralized. And so you can't really compare Apple to Apple on this one. But um what I really like about it is like the amount of people that are getting exposure to per now and getting exposure to these type of of new assets. And so it's something that we really care about and on our side we're also building it but in a different way where it's centralized where uh you know um if

something happens you can actually go um against Robin Hood or you can talk to a regulator about Robin Hood. So so it's a bit of a different world. Um but in any case you can buy hype actually on the Robin platform. So, you know, we don't necessarily see >> I've done each other like as as competitor like that don't talk to each other. We we think they're a great team and uh we we wish them the best. >> So, you're bullish. >> You're bullish or no? >> None is bullish or not, but you know, you can you can acquire >> say he's bullish. Y they're cutting us short. You got to go to a panel. Thank you so much.

We'll have you on again soon. >> All righty, guys. That is Robin Hood uh general manager of crypto. the lead. Johan Kerbot tried to um I tried to get him there. Tried to get him. He was bullish on hype. >> So, you're bullish, huh? >> Uh he was not really able to say he was bullish on hype, ladies and gentlemen. >> I find it I find it funny how he says, you know, you can buy hype on Robin Hood, but can't you also buy Robin Hood on hype? >> I I think you probably can. >> You probably could. You can't. You will be too soon. And so, one of them is dealing with the asset, the other one's dealing with the platform.

>> All right, but if you look at the numbers guys >> there's an argument to be made. >> I'm on the chat. I see Dan this guy taught spot on crypto bros will not actually want crypto legalized cuz government will take over longing Monero not sure that was the conclusion that I came to new type but congrats to you man Holland what's up girl how you doing how you doing we are live here in Miami baby let's get it man feels good to have you back >> from El Salvador >> there you go >> this event's pretty good man there's a lot of suits there's a lot ofity a lot of people I mean everyone we've talked to uh so far today we've Michael, we've had Todd, now we've had Johan. Uh, everyone's super solid. Um, and I think tokenization feels like the word of the

week. >> I mean, yeah, it's the word of the entire month. It's the word of everything. I mean, we had Kathy Wood on saying that Larry thinks tokenization flip, right? His bullishness is is kind of what's driving a lot of the excitement and energy in this market. I mean, when Kathy saying stuff like this, people do listen, right? People do listen. >> Yeah. Um, Kathy was an incredible episode and the video is ripping guys. Thank you for watching. >> Excited. Thank you for watching, guys. Hit us up in the chat on YouTube, on Twitter. We're watching the chat. So, you guys, if you guys have questions for our guests, keep them coming. Uh, we're going to be having a lot more for you guys today.

>> Yeah. Why don't we get into some of the news? Han Ventures raises a billion dollar round, right? >> Yeah. Bitcoin cracks 80K. >> Is Bitcoin flying right now? >> Bitcoin is above 80K. Wow, that's bullish, man. 80.2. Let's go ahead and get the news up, guys. We've got quite a All righty. >> Here we go. We are back summit. Welcome back, Rob. Yeah, feels good. How was your panel, man? >> It was good, man. I had uh the consensus main venue. I think that's probably >> I had about an hour there. That's probably the most amount of time I'm going to spend at the main venue. It was packed.

>> It was packed. >> Um this is the first morning that they're doing it. there was probably like 3,000 people in line and so they did not they had like a pre-registration. They did not plan for everyone to come the morning of they wanted people to pre-register. Um but then uh you know obviously people started filling in which is it was cool. There was a lot of a lot of people there. It was a really really solid lineup. Uh bunch of venues or booths and and whatnot. So it was exciting. And once again Canton is just front and center. >> Really? >> Yeah. At an E well I don't know if this is an Ethereum conference but >> certainly not. You walk in and right there is like that big C, you know, privacy on chain, future of finance, the whole thing. It's like can't get away

from these guys. >> Well, Ryan, we've got you here in Miami. Welcome to the show. >> Cheers to you, man. The >> one of the co-founders of Genius Terminal, Ryan, uh, how's Miami treating you? >> Miami is great. Yeah, a lot of great people here. I think cuz Token 2049's not happening in Dubai. Sure. >> I I think a lot of people are coming, which is awesome for us. Yeah. You don't have to go too far. >> Yeah. It's like a token of this year type of vibe for sure. Also like the US environment is just it's ripe for conferences, you know. It feels like New York, we've done a bunch, Miami, now we're here. It feels like people are excited to be back in the in the states and building on chain.

>> Yeah. >> Um and so how's that has it affected your journey? I I mean I'd love to hear a little bit about you know how you guys founded Genius and ultimately uh what what it's been like building so far. >> Yeah. Uh we were building block explorers >> against our better judgment uh back in the day. Uh but uh basically we were we were learning about multi-party compute and then realized you could kind of build centralized exchanges on chain in due time. Um obviously there's like liquidity constraints and things like that but uh that's that was kind of the the original kind of how we got to genius. Um but uh we uh we started like during the memecoin rush building like a memecoin trading app uh and then now it's pivoted to like a full terminal um supporting like eight plus networks and

kind of launching adjacent products now to solve for like the liquidity constraints and things. So >> nice like the crosschain liquidity constraints across dexes and and other venues. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I think like the the number one thing that people love about Genius is how easy it is to just swap between tokens. So it's like you know a lot of these terminals they'll have you know uh and and they're getting better but uh a lot of these terminals will have you know their EVM address and their SVM address and if you really want to like move between you have to like export private keys and bridge and then come back we always just like made it like incredibly easy to do that and kind of navigate all your chains without actually like thinking there's chains.

Um, and then on the liquidity side, I think like we're we're going with propm. That's like the most interesting thing uh in terms of like actual like sex level liquidity and the ability to like not lose a bunch of money on chain via slippage. Uh yeah, that's >> Yeah. Could you just explain to the audience what the breakthrough is with prop AMMs? Why these are kind of popular right now and what the what the advantages are compared to a traditional EM? >> Yeah. Yeah. So I would say uh I can especially talk about kind of the one that we're working on. Um so uh most profms they are actually like quoting offchain um and there's like you know benefits to that. Uh and the market makers are actually kind of they're using their own pools of liquidity. So

they're therefore you're not like you know subject to your you know 100k and pancake swaps liquidity pool. Uh which you know obviously like users aren't getting yield on that then but you know there's there's gives and takes. Um the way that we're structuring our propm is basically the first propm where uh we're just using one pool. Uh so it's basically going to be dynamically uh uh quoting and and providing liquidity for to start five pairs um instead of trying to scale each individual pool linearly. Um so I think there's like a lot of benefits mostly like pricing. Um, and I think whenever we launch the propm in the next few weeks, uh, on BNB chain to start, uh, the the thing that's most exciting is we're, uh, gonna have fees basically be non-existent entirely, such that we can

see how close we can quote to like Binance as like a centralized exchange. Uh, I think that'll be really awesome to see. Um, >> and and why BNB chain? Is it, you know, the proximity to Binance is, you know, main order book kind of gives you some spillover effect. What why B&B chain? >> Our main investor is Easy Labs. Um, I think we're just bullish on BNB chain. a bunch of builders on BMG BNB chain and I would say like we're just aligned with a lot of their teams. Um and so that's where we want to support >> and just I'd love just to catch up like you know obviously B&B chain pancake swap had a significant run along with you know several D5 projects in uh D5 summer I just personally have not you know really kept up with B&B chain um as a ecosystem. Give us a sense of like

what is leading over there? What are some of the opportunities? What should people keep an eye out for on B&B? Yeah, I think the the one of the most popular ones right now is Predict.f fun has joined the prediction market race. Um, and he I think he was actually one of the founders of Pancake Swap. Uh, the guy that started that. Um, so uh I think that's probably the most exciting thing. I I it's actually interesting whenever you go and speak with like a lot of the teams in that ecosystem. They're not necessarily like pushing everyone to just be on B just be on BNB chain. Um, they they do want people to be on Salana. They want like access to all those types of liquidity. Um, and uh, yeah, I don't actually know any teams that are just building solely on BNB chain. Uh, I think they're like mostly

like crosschain. Uh, and and honestly, they're from my understanding, they're very pro that, right? Because it's like >> the the greater vision is like pushing crypto forward. That's like that means more to them than anything else, which is awesome. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Very cool. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Back to the uh, prop amm conversation you had. >> So, you source the pricing offchain. >> Yeah. Well, so the actual quoting happens offchain. Yeah. Yeah. >> So it's so so there's like a there's a matching engine offchain. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> And then the the order gets settled onchain. >> Correct. Yeah.

>> Okay. >> So if you actually look it's it's funny like from like a prof perspective if you actually look at like certain liquidity uh or if you look like at onchain liquidity the onchain liquidity on like most pairs is like it shows up as like basically nothing. Um so you would like think that you're getting but like all their liquidity is sitting in the MM's order book or in the MM's accounts, right? Um, and so like you'd think like, oh, I'm going to get so screwed here because there's no liquidity. Um, which I I don't know if that's for better or for worse for crypto generally, uh, for like blockchains, but, uh, for like actual traders themselves, it it will be super beneficial. Um, at least for the majors, right? Obviously, I think like Pancake Swap and all these guys like you can't I don't think anyone will ever

like or PropM will ever quote like most like launchpads and things, right? It doesn't make any sense. Uh, you'll need like the pump fund bonding curve, but uh yeah. >> Okay. So, >> max degeneracy. Yeah. So, so the the benefit is a better pricing model offchain and then you still get all the components of execution and um all the properties that you get by doing the transaction on >> and and the transparency as well, right? It's like you know where the funds are settling to like there's still that level of like okay if if this wallet swapping it's not like the funds like go offchain uh or or it's not like the funds are more or less like traveling off. There's no like privacy perspective if that makes sense. Um like everything's still settling on chain, still verifiable, all all that good stuff. That's like the the value of a

blockchain. Um it's just better quoting. Yeah. Tighter spreads. >> Yeah. Um what do you think that is holding back right now in terms of in terms of the asset universe that is going to become available here? You know, you're you're bringing the the matchmaking onchain. We've kind of seen more of these hybrid models come up. >> I I guess the general question here is like what comes next, right? as we're kind of bringing more liquidity and and better pricing on chain. Is it just kind of expanding this prop AMM this modality to more assets, right? Expanding it to tokenized equities, these kinds of things. Yeah. What what are you thinking comes next here, second half of this year?

>> I think I think that is exactly what you said. I think uh kind of expanding on assets, like I said, we we're starting with five um and we'll kind of expand as necessary. Um, I think like the the fun question then becomes like uh it's it'll basically come down to like a I think a philosophical question which is like do I want to have you know full control of my assets? Do I want to do something self-custodial or do I want to be on a centralized exchange? I think that'll like over time as like you know uh if if you log on to Genius and you log on to like a Binance if they're like they feel the same, the pricing is the same it's like what what's like really the difference? I think that'll be like the ultimate question. It's like do you want

and there's huge benefits like I keep a lot of money in centralized exchanges right like there's something about the peace of mind of knowing like uh you know they're monitoring there's like insurance there's there's those types of things um versus just uh you know being self-custodial and there's also like privacy risks there as well right it's like if I can see you have >> 10 million on chain and I'm having an interview right now I could have my goons like rob you after right um like outside it's terrifying it's seriously scary >> chilling canon how >> I'm I'm I'm curious how it feels to, you know, be friends with Binance but also kind of competing with centralized exchanges. Like how do you how do you balance that?

>> Uh so I would say we're not friends with Binance.com specifically, right? >> Um obviously we're aligned with like Wise Labs uh and BNB chain and and a lot of those guys. as I know there's like you know some some of them >> direct relationship with friend friendly relationship with >> client um but uh like you know we don't have any control over the decisions they make or kind of that yeah um but uh yeah I mean I think >> at the end of the day the management there cares a lot about competition is what I've seen they love competition and they love to see people compete and I think it makes everyone work harder uh so I don't think uh there's any like sort of like stepping on toes I mean we saw this with like predict fun and opinion labs they love to fund multiple

companies in the same kind of verticals and like go at it and see who wins, you know. Um, and so I I don't think uh I mean at least not right now. We're not competitive to Binance and like they're just, you know, the number one exchange in the world in my opinion. Um, but you know, all we can do is kind of work towards, you know, trying to compete. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, definitely. And and so what are some of the best prop amms in the space right now? >> Yeah. I would say almost all the propms that are like live and actually like doing volume are on Salana. I would say the only one on BNB chain is uh winner mutes propm. Uh we did like a a small thing with them for a week. I think we sent them like 800 million in volume or

something. Um Tacera it's called. Uh so Tacera right now is by far the number one uh uh propm on BNB chain. There's like a long list of ones on Salana. Um but we are not going to be launching one on Salana. I think it's kind of it's similar to like block explorers. I think like a lot of things will become commoditized in due time. Um and so it is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. So, so Salana is dominating the prop amm space then in general. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. >> And so there is it is it even competing close to like unis swap, aerodromes, jupiter or is the volume significantly less >> for propm on Salana? I think propm now account for 80% of all volume on Salana.

>> Really? >> Yeah. So it's it's very significant. Um which is pretty insane. >> And and so Jupiter's just routing these orders into these prop amm then >> their aggregator. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, obviously there's still volume on like pump fun and those types of things, but if you if you look at the curve, I think I think DeFi Lama has a prop mm uh kind of, you know, >> stat >> stat uh and and like watching the curve is insane. Um and like nobody's like really like talking about it, you know, nobody like people don't really know what a propm is nor nor should people give a [ __ ] quite frankly, right? It's like the the the beauty is like uh >> it doesn't matter where the liquidity is coming from. It doesn't really matter.

It's just like can you get the best pricing or not? Um, and that's kind of the fun fun of the game. Yeah. >> Yeah. Is this Lunar Base? >> Huh? Th >> This is the number one prop AMM on on DeFi Lama. Lunar Base. >> Lunar Base. Okay. >> I've never heard of it. Feels like it came out of nowhere. >> Yeah. No, there's there's a few that uh What are the some of the other ones? >> Humidify. >> Humidify. Yep. Yep. >> Yeah. >> That was the number one on Salonic >> for a while. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, but yeah. No, it's it's interesting to watch. What What's the current stat uh in terms of like do they have like percentage of volume on Salana? 7-day volume 5 billion.

>> Pretty solid. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Especially for onchain volume right now. You know, onchain volume is not crazy. So, >> yeah. So, >> you think all I was Do you think AMMs in general are going to convert to this model? >> I I would uh I don't know what's actually public. I have to be careful. Um yes. >> Oh boy. >> You think like most AMMs will just end up becoming props? >> I think there a lot of the teams that have Yes. I think they're working on this. I think they're cognizant of the fact that it's happening and they kind of need to take advantage of it or else it'll become more or less obsolete. So, >> yeah, just kind of sounds like an order book.

>> Yeah, it is. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, it's it's it's interesting. Uh and we'll see what happens. Uh but it'll be interesting to see like unis swap and some of these other guys like how how they play out over the next like five years. >> You think they'll they'll pivot into a prop amm? >> If I had to guess probably. Yeah. >> Yeah. How when do you think that might take place? >> I'm not sure. I'm not unis swap. maybe in the next I mean based on like what you're seeing there it has to be soon right it has to be in the next couple of of months next few years >> yeah I mean it seems like XYK unis swap AMM like even V3 V4 it was primarily for illlquid tokens but now that we have liquidity on most of the majors most of the native tokens you

know a lot of the liquidity and and matching can be done offchain settle that onchain the purists might get a little little angry with that >> sure >> and then for the coins that are still illquid new ones you know you mentioned like pump funds, you know, bonding curve is a more efficient. So now you have a more efficient model for both liquid tokens and illquid tokens and unis swap's kind of in the messy middle that as we say. >> Yeah, basically. >> Yeah. What's on the road map for Genius Terminal this year? What are you guys really looking to roll out? I mean, it sounds like you're building your own kind of in-house version of this. What's coming?

>> Uh yeah, so that'll be Genius Fi. Um the other thing that we're working on is like Uptown Markets. I think like uh a lot of companies are working on this. uh like the fiveminute bitcoin options, 30 secondond bitcoin options just max degeneracy. It's like how do you take like the pump on degeneracy and like not make it uh you know it's less it's like uh market agnostic in the sense of like if the market's like down 30% today it's like people are still going to gamble on something. Right. Right. Um but like whenever people are bundling [ __ ] coins it's like you know different um >> gambling's recession proof. People love gambling even even >> gamify gamify. Yeah. So, it's like we're just trying to be like as holistic as possible, right? And we're trying to like because at the end of the day, it's

like we're business, right? We're trying to produce revenues. Um like narratives are fun and all, but like like how can we basically place ourselves at the infrastructure level and the gambley and like just on the terminal level and and try and win across the board and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Ryan, enjoy your uh actually we have one thing. How will prop amexes from New Type? Wonder if that's what the Titan uh block building company was launching with their dart orders. >> I'm actually not familiar with this. So yeah, I can't say I have an opinion. >> Do you think uh like will propm and perplexes? Is there a a match there as well?

>> I think there could be for spot specifically uh like Astra spot I guess for perplexes themselves. I haven't like thought too deeply. We're not a perex. We just integrate hyperlquid and Aster. I'm not a perex expert by any means. So >> we'll see. Ryan, enjoy your week in Miami. Uh should be a a fun week. >> The markets are flying. Hopefully onchain activity, you know, comes back up >> into the coming months and uh >> good for business. >> You guys get this AMM out and Exactly. Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Very cool. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate you guys. Appreciate >> you. We'll see you next time.

>> That's probably one of our first uh conversations on propm a little bit about it, >> you know. And I'm looking at the DeFi Llama. Um thank thanks Ryan. Uh what we're I'm looking at the DeFi Llama like uh you know chart here and it's you know up into 2024 peaked out you know maybe a billion dollars in volume and now we're just >> just straight green line up. >> Yeah. >> A lot here in last 2026. Couple of protocols. >> We're going to have to pay more attention there. >> I think so. >> Guys, we're going to pass you to our yesterday's show and rerun it as we get our next guest. Robbie is back. He's wearing the suit. Uh we're very firmly in the institutional era of this industry. Adapter die. Rob, >> you're on the main stage at the main conference. You got to wear this suit

>> with Joe Luben, huh? >> We're getting you there, Andy. >> One of these days, guys, we'll be right back. Stay tuned. The Capital Summit right after this. >> And speaking with each other, I could see them having a fair amount of short-term success for that reason. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh, one of the big pieces of news that came out this morning, I think, or maybe maybe over the weekend is the DTC, uh, and their tokenization service. They're they're going to start testing it I believe in July and then roll it out in October of this year. Um there was 50 plus names companies that are in this working group and helping to align on the best practices for tokenization.

Help us understand how the DTC plays a role in tokenization as they go from the current custody of over a hundred trillion dollars of stock certificates to more of a a tokenization partner for a lot of these companies. Yeah, I think the way to think about it is to go back to how a securities transaction works in the first place. You know, how how it works is I call up my broker, the broker calls an exchange, the exchange calls a clearing house, the clearing house calls a custodian, the custodian calls a transfer agent, and when all those books and records are updated, you have a securities transaction between Alice and Bob. Uh say that's how the system works.

And you know, of course, it is pretty efficient. Our cap, especially US capital markets are pretty good. uh but the first step will be moving more of that activity onto blockchain based infrastructure to get uh more settlement asurances lower cost more transparency uh reducing the role of of human uh involvement. So that's how I see the DTC uh efforts and some of the you know permission private uh blockchain projects is moving us towards that tokenization uh future. In the longer run I think maybe we can disintermediate more and more of those steps with smart contracts. That's the longer term uh vision, but a first step is just moving what we're doing today onto blockchains to get a lot of efficiency. That's how I would read uh the DTC.

>> And just one quick question here. You know, they're currently cing hundred trillion dollars in stock certificates. What happens to this hundred trillion dollars? >> Well, they they still are doing the same. They just are uh instead of a book entry uh recordeping, it's blockchain recording. So, they're still the custodian same sort of thing. It's not that revolutionary of a change. I would say it's a step towards our tokenized future. You know, I think a cryptonative audience sometimes thinks, you know, what is the point of that? We could go so much further with open blockchains and smart contractbased decentralized finance. And I think eventually we are going there. Uh but this is where how the steps that it's going to take uh to get us there. I think it's a a good push towards that tokenized future.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Zack, man, we've just since you came on, we were talking about privacy. Zcash has just continued to outperform the rest of the market over the last six weeks or so. It has been the quickest horse off the lows. Could you just give us the reasoning why Zcash is Grayscale's privacy bet? What is it that makes Zcash so compelling to the investor who perhaps joined crypto in 2017 or 2021, kind of missed the early days of Bitcoin? People are calling this the ability to enter and to uh be an investor in Bitcoin in 2015 but in 2026 what is the Zcash thesis from Gayscale from your work with their team with Barry and all the work that you guys are

doing there why is this thing doing so well >> I think it's not difficult to understand at at some level first we know that there is demand for decentralized digital currencies that that's one of the use cases of blockchains that's the Bitcoin use case it's a multi- trillion market. Zcash is competing in that space. So, we know there's a huge addressable market. Second, it's time for privacy on blockchain uh infrastructure. As blockchains are interacting with real world finance, professional grown-up finance, I think the need for privacy is becoming completely obvious and AI is pushing that even further. you know, it's AI technology has the potential of increasing surveillance on open networks

like uh like Bitcoin and sort of increasing the need for real privacy uh solutions. And then the third piece is maybe Zcash specific is it's I think it is moving into a new era. Zcash is 10 years old, but it's made some changes. It's evolved uh in certain ways how privacy is implemented. New capital is entering the ecosystem, helping build out things like wallets, connectivity across chains through things like near intents. So all these pieces together, the huge addressable market, the I think pressing need for privacy and financial transactions because of AI and Zcash are really being ready for the moment. You put all that together and then you look at its market cap and it's very very

small. When I look at all of the currency plays in crypto, just the currency assets, Bitcoin is 93% of that category and Zcash is 0.3% of that uh category. So, a lot going for it. A modest market cap. I have pretty high aspirations uh for what we can see from Zcash this year and beyond. >> Yeah. So, you're thinking like a top 15 token in the future, top 10. I think it has uh very high potential upside uh if the vision is is realized.

>> What what are the just out of cur? >> Welcome back to another episode of Stabled Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital dollars, stable coins, and the future of decentralized finance. Show is made possible by FRA and FRA is powering the financial engine of the internet powering FRXUSD and genius compliant stable coins. This is the stable coin super cycle made possible by FRA. Now enjoy stabled up our weekly stablecoin show.

Welcome to episode number 31 of Stabled Up, our premier weekly stable coin and tokenization show powered by our friends at FRA with their FRXUSD product. Check out frack.inance to learn more. Today we have Centrifuge CEO Baji Illuminati Baji. Welcome to Miami. Welcome to the show. Great to have you. >> Great to be here. >> Big news today. Congratulations. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> How are you feeling? >> Very excellent. It's been a long time in the making. We actually announced today that Centrifuge was selected as a preferred tokenization infrastructure for Coinbase. So, we've been working closely with We actually launched our first products on base three years ago.

had Jesse Pollock uh at our RWA summit when they had just launched BAS. So, we've been a very early supporter of the base ecosystem, and it's incredible to see it really come full circle where now we're collaborating with them on what does tokenization look like to not just bring assets on chain, but to integrate them into DeFi and to make them usable and to really grow them and bring them the to the same level as other crypto assets that folks are used to interacting with on chain. >> Yeah. So, yeah, go ahead. I just remember they did that um Coinbase change everything thing like last October I think they had this big event and and they spoke about they were launching a tokenization platform and

that it was going to be a big focus you know for them going forward. So congratulations there. >> Yeah, the system update where Ryan Armstrong ended it by talking about Coinbase tokeniz left a lot to the imagination. So we're very excited that this is the first big announcement they did around their push into tokenization. Well, the tokenized treasury market is specifically growing a lot. Um, you guys have a product there that is in the billions in TVL. There's quite a handful of leaders. It's kind of yet to be decided who's going to be the fastest horse, but it it's a race. It's it's a full-on race. I'm just curious your view. Let's start with the with the treasuries market. How do you kind of view the tokenized treasuries market right now? Obviously, we've been in a

world where stable coins have been a massively revenue generating business from a uh just a standpoint of earning the interest from uh yields in treasuries and in money markets and keeping that and and basically just growing a massive business. Tokenized treasuries are passing that yield back to their users. These users are are more sophisticated investors coming on chain to purchase these products. What is your kind of lay of the land of tokenized of the tokenized treasury market now? Yeah, I'll say the market now is all about deeply liquid and um fast duration T0 or T1 products. So that has been T bills.

Another product that we have alongside our T- bill product is AAA CLOS's which is about 200 basis points above the risk-free rate. And we're seeing a similar buyer which is primarily stable coins and onchain allocators who want that enhanced cash product coming into both T bills and that AAA clo product. So we've started really packaging them together where you have the liquidity profile that's needed for onchain markets and you have a slightly higher yield. So it it hedges some of the risk of when the T- bill rates start to go down. Onchain markets are there's still a huge demand and a huge growth driver both for products like stable coins that want to manage their reserve with the safest most stable assets but then also

vaults and defy protocols that want to construct better products. So that might mean having T- bills as the liquidity buffer, having JA as the yield floor, so that there's always an allocation into T- bills that can come in and out instantly. And then with JAA as the yield floor, when crypto rates are volatile and they come down, they never go below JA. So they would just swap into JA and you would have at least always a 5% yield. Um, so that is that's some of the work that we're doing on chain in terms of integrating these products throughout the broader ecosystem.

And there's a couple iterative steps that make them even better. So for instance, we are changing our T-bell fund from T+1, so we update the NAV daily, but it can take a day to redeem to INAV, so instantaneous NAV any second throughout the day. That makes it a lot easier for these atomic protocols that need to be able to swap in and out to get that real time nav. We're also adding a liquidity facility that will be announced in the next couple weeks that's a very large scale largest that the industry has seen. And what that allows is that we're able to work with Janice Henderson, our partner for the T-Bill fund, and they're now selling this money market fund to their traditional clients. So having a money

market fund that is instant liquidity at such a deep level becomes a better option than what they currently have. So it's the same product except better. >> Definitely is >> for those allocators that Janice Henderson is now going to you know champion the the tokenized T- bill fund. Is it any change to their user experience you know when they allocate into these funds if they're typically accustomed to a you know money market? Are they seeing anything different now that it's tokenized?

>> Yeah, there's still some basic infrastructure around being able to hold tokenized assets and create a wallet. So, we're working together to simplify and streamline that process, but it becomes significantly easier as the space matures and there's just more institutional players that are putting their brand and putting their reputation and building these products. then folks are willing to take that step and add the additional complexity to get started because they have confidence that this isn't just a phase, it's the future of finance and they want to be early.

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I'll tell you. I mean I mean when you invest into money markets and brokerages, they have there is a T+1 settlement. When you trade securities, you can trade in and out in the same day. Now, uh but with money markets specifically, you have to wait at least a day and that is uh that that is a bit annoying. >> It can be solved right now. That's the really exciting thing is it's not too far away. >> And so is there like is there a component of using stable coins to contribute to this solution or what is the do you have a reserve management uh of liquidity that you're able to kind of pull from? How do you manage redemptions and people wanting to move in and out when let's say it's a weekend or if it's aftermarket hours or just during market

hours if there is that T+1? What does that kind of redemp uh redemption and liquidity management look like? Yeah, we're starting with T- Bills because it's the e it's the deepest most liquid market. Yeah. Um and there's the least fluctuation on price. So, we're working with a liquidity provider. We're starting at for free. So, we don't want to charge for subscriptions and redemptions. We want to just grow this product. Ultimately, they'll be able to price the risk based on the duration. So, it'll stay relatively low for T bills. Um but if someone redeems on a weekend, for instance, that could fluctuate. I think the question is like very very relevant for stocks and a lot of this more actively traded products.

Um, which is why you're not seeing the liquidity depth and the ecosystem around those products yet because there's just so much more risk. But for a money market fund, it's a lot more seamless to be able to put institutional capital and these large institutions behind these products from launch. >> Yeah, definitely. >> And then like you know it'll be pretty seamless. So you can just do that instant uh redemption via central page. >> Yeah. Very cool. And I think an instant redemption is one of those things where it's just better, you know, than than the current alternative. Um quick another another question here on the Coinbase uh partnership. Um I'm looking at the Centrifuge RWA League table. You know, you've got this billion dollar uh Janice Henderson Anamoy Treasury Fund.

Most of that is on Ethereum mainet and then you've got Avalanche, Plume, Stellar, then Bass. Base comes in 8.2 million dollars and centrifuge RWA. Well, this is this is where what we're getting to love. >> Ethereum's got, you know, 1.3 billion and you know, Avalanche and Plumemer are doing well as well. How much of that changes now with this Coinbase partnership? Are we going to see a shift of centrifuge RWAs over to base? Yeah, it's a great question and it's something that we talked to the base team a lot about. That 8 million is from the product that we just launched last week.

So, or last month. So, we got it out to really prove this partnership. And it's actually a our DRWA token, which is the DeFi version of our permissioned assets. And what that allows is for these assets to be used within DeFi. So it's S&P 500 is the first product that we did and it's integrated in Morpho curated by a on a vault by stakehouse integrated in oiler curated by clearstar integrated in multiply as part of their RWA USD stablecoin and traded on dexes. So we started small because we really wanted to prove RWA DeFi and have this really intentional use case and the TVL

opportunity is both how are we taking our existing products so that's our T bill fund our CLLO fund making that available for users on base uh and then how are we building new products and new use cases with Bass. So, we're actually um uh not announcing in the next few weeks, but we have a really interesting client referred from the base team that is that wants to build on base. So, they come to centrifuge, we help them tokenize. So, bass has an in and coinbase have incredible brands and vast networks and the those that want to build on base now have this path with centrifuge where we can help them get to market. So, I think there's some movement of the existing TVL, but more

importantly, it's new TVL and new products and new interesting use cases that are available on base. >> Well, I think the DeFi RWA product is one of the most compelling ones that we've seen and heard about because RWAs naturally are great. You know, you get instant settlement. That's a massive value proposition. But then the next step is, you know, com liquid composable tokens that are that are able to be used in a lot of the DeFi ecosystem that we've been proving out that's able to to take something that previously yielded 3% now yields 5% and at scale this is a meaningful difference. And so tell us a bit more, you know, about this DeFi wrapped product because I'd imagine that most RWAs are going to follow suit once we start to prove out this use case. Is

it permission KYC? Can anyone deposit into some of these vaults? How composable is it? Where, you know, how do you see RWA becoming incorporated into the same D5 protocols that have been primarily for the native crypto tokens? >> Yeah. So, it's freely transferable, which means that there's KYC on subscription and redemption, and then it's it's freely tradable in secondary markets. >> So, we are we've always been focused on securities, deep security securities lawyers on our teams. We're very comfortable with securities law. So, this is a debt security. It's a different type of instrument, but it's very well understood in traditional finance and the folks that we're talking to on chain and it gives it still provides that legal protection and the

investor rights and it gives us the comfort of building this construct that is usable within DeFi but still maintains that underlying right. >> So, we expect that >> it we we did a lot of research. we feel like it was the best solution and we've started seeing really positive response from the folks we've been integrating with and from some of the early use cases that we've built >> and and you know from your experience looking at DeFi looking at looping and staking and all these different things how do you think bringing the you know billion that you know people are projecting this industry at trillions right as we kind of tokenize more of the market what happens to DeFi when we bring trillions of dollars of assets onchain into DeFi protocols

Yeah, it's really interesting. I think there's two components. One is that it's invisible infrastructure like a canton and it's just tokenized and it just makes it better on the back end to the second is that you're actually creating new novel ways to build the products. So you're not just wrapping offchain products, you're actually building them on chain from day one and then what to do with the products. So we work with 3F that Sonia and their team just launched recently. I was just on a panel with her and they're building automated leverage looping and the first asset they selected was our DJAA so the AAA CLLO's and that's a new novel way of course you can do that offchain but it's months of legal paperwork and signing documents

and back and forth and it's just not scalable in the way that it can be on on chain >> and I'd imagine difficult to rebalance if there's some sort of thing you need to add more collateral you need to rebalance your leverage you know looping is something that takes a little bit more active management and when you can embed all that into a smart contract makes things a lot lot easier. >> Yeah. So it truly can become better, faster, cheaper and we're iteratively building some of those. So we've done some different case studies. We we did an Apollo product where we were able to provide intraquarter liquidity through liquidity partnerships that we have. So in that case the onchain version had better liquidity than the off-chain version. And then we were able to provide that automated looping via a

deployment on Morpho so that someone can deposit a credit X they can borrow against it and they can drive that loop. So both of those then make the onchain version of the product better than the off-chain version of the product and that's what compels Christine and the Apollo team to go and sell it to their internal teams and to advocate this and to show those sidebyside differences. >> Yeah. So you guys are sitting at that about one one and a half billion dollars mark on these products. What takes this to 10 billion? How do you is it solely a institutional sales partnerships B2B enterprise type of operation? Is it opening up to more of the onchain user base? What is the kind of 5 to 10x here for for this kind of tokenized T bills and CLLO product?

>> Yeah. So specifically for the tokenized se T bills and CLLLO product we view it as programmatic distribution. So right now a lot of it is onetoone sales. We know the sky team and we know all the major allocators and we know all the lending markets and we're having these conversations. What we're doing is we're automating a lot of that. So we're building APIs and we're making it much more programmatic and we're making it more of this marketplace ecosystem where not just our existing current products but any product that comes on chain via centrifuge has the quality that has is known from our brand has the audit the 24 audits we've done. So it has the

security and operational um requirements and then it has the standards that the onchain community has vetted. So there's much a much lower diligence curve if you tokenize via centrifuge because we've checked off operations. We've checked off token standards and integrations. We've checked off that onchain operational security rigor. And now the last thing to underwrite is the individual asset. As it relates to assets, we have two on-ramps you could say. One is an in-house asset manager where we're actually the trusted adviser and strategic partner for these large institutions that are building their tokenization strategy and they need us

to advise them on what is how to think about onchain finance and how to think about accepting stable coins and really building the infrastructure and the team required for building onchain. This is a um we usually work with the largest institutional asset managers in the world. It's a handheld approach where we really are going deep within their team and shaping that strategy. That being said, we recognize the time is now for tokenization. So, we have a white label version of our product where anyone can build on centrifuge using that same underlying technology that's been audited, that's secure, that we are constantly upgrading and improving. So that's where we're working with

vertically integrated asset managers and originators who deeply understand their niche and who want to build these products natively on chain from day one. And this is an incredible scale vector because it's what allows every asset to be tokenized and done in a safe and secure and scalable way. >> Yeah. Yeah. So so the CLLOs's that you guys have, some of those power the collateral backing for Sky USDs, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah, Sky is a very early adopter in real world assets and has been a incredible pioneer. We actually minted the first stable coin. We minted D with RWA backing back in 2021.

>> Nice. So, >> very cool. And so they were kind of in a weird uh spot after this whole kelp layer zero a thing where they're trying to lower risk and they actually mentioned kind of changing their collateral base to kind of more like they were going to lower their rates down a bit and adjust some of the CLLO backing. How do you navigate the hey you know we don't want to operate with CLLOs's because we're a little bit worried it's getting a little bit a little bit kind of all over the place and disjointed with what our collateral backing is. We just want something very very safe. How do you kind of how do you kind of deal with that push back on the CLLO product?

>> Yes, we've seen a increased inflow over the last few weeks into our TBO product above the CLLO product. We're doing a lot of education on the CLLO product. So Nick Churnney from Janice is a great advocate of course they're the market leaders in CLOS's offchain and onchain as well of the risk mitigation how to think about underwriting and how to think about CLOS's for real riskoff allocators T- bills are truly the safest so we that's why we offer the T bill product and bring those to market side by side um and I think ultimately in times of DeFi volatility RWAs are a safe haven they're stable They're predictable. There's very low volatility. And in times of increased

security risk, what sometimes can be perceived as a negative thing for RWAs can be perceived as positive because we're managing the share registry offchain. Somebody deposits USDC, we convert to USD. We hold the assets in custody. Yeah. So, there's low risk of losing those funds. So when people are really hunkering down in terms of who they're partnering with, they want a long track record. They want operational security, smart contract security, but then a high degree of confidence that there's as low of a risk vector as possible for any potential hacks and >> yeah risk.

>> And is part of the business model then powering the collateral of other stable coin issuers then with the CLO product and with the Tubio product? Like if I'm a stablecoin issuer, why would I go to centrifuge to get access to a TBO product if I could get that on my own? I I imagine it's a lot of the infrastructure that you just said. Now I think the CL product becomes more compelling because that probably requires quite a bit more diligence and setup and legal structures etc. Why why as a stable coin issuer would I want to uh use centrifugees products to power my yield and is that a part of your business model? Yeah, absolutely a part of our business model and still the the primary buyer of RWBAs on chain right now. There's two two reasons right now.

One is those that don't have the off-chain infrastructure to buy the T- bills direct um where they just want to operate fully on chain, they want to operate fully within stable coins. And then the second um for those that do have the off-chain infrastructure often they want a fully onchain reserve so that they have that instant liquidity. So in that in both cases we absolutely support them. There are some like circles reserve which is fully offchain and it will always be that way but we want to build for the onchain economy and provide that optionality where we can manage the offchain infrastructure and regulatory complexity for you.

>> Yeah. So it's very much like a trusted partner expertise. We just want to work on our our stable coin scaling this thing and knowing that you guys can take care of the kind of underlying collateral backing part. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Awesome. >> I'm just curious how how the asset universe expands from here. You know, obviously CLOS's, treasuries are kind of the, you know, it feels like we're just going to go down the risk curve in terms of how we're tokenizing this, but ultimately everything will be tokenized and brought onchain. Um, you know, whether it's equities or it's other types of yield bearing products. Is there a particular sector of you know the off-chain finance market that you're looking at bringing onchain next?

>> Yeah, so we're actually in the next couple weeks announcing a high yield bond fund. So it's 7% liquidity, 7% yield daily liquid. So there's this um opportunity in the existing curve which is still relatively liquid products where we go from T bills to CLLOs's to high yield bond to private credit and we can have a really good offering across the spectrum. Um, and we'll probably stay in that sweet spot on our asset management side in terms of the white label side. That's where we bring some more of these hard to access more esoteric in some way assets on chain where traditional allocators they can't access them easily in traditional channels. So the best access point is on

chain um and then they often have different yield and different durations. So ultimately we do want to be this home where every asset, every yield, every jurisdiction, every asset class can be accessed through centrifuge and those portfolios can be constructed on centrifuge. >> Yeah. >> Well, Baji, I hope you have a great rest of your week. Congrats on the news today. This this is awesome for you guys. Coinbase is huge obviously and they did make that announcement. So I know this has been a long time coming for you. >> Um big announcement today and I feel like you mentioned a couple other things. You said >> in the coming months, >> in the coming weeks, in the coming months, we're going to be announcing this all ready for consensus, but we we got to sequence it out. So, yeah, we have a keep an eye on Centrifuge. A lot

of exciting updates. >> The market is reacting well to the announcement so far. So, thanks for joining us today. That is episode number 31, guys. We are live here from the Capital Summit in Miami Beach. We'll be right back with our next guest. Thanks for rocking with us >> thesis there. when it comes to some of like the larger players advocating for tokenization last week. We saw securityize had big news in this in in this market. I think that they also just got a a FINRA, you know, uh regulatory guidance today and then we had the DTC like what is the signal from the larger players that you're seeing? I know there's a very like clear bull case, but is there any more nuance signal that you're deriving from the tokenization

broad kind of like for lack of a better term hype cycle? >> Well, I think mostly that people can see that it's a mega trend that is only at the very beginning like an American baseball analogy. Maybe the first pitch has been thrown. $25 billion of tokenized assets is something it's a good start, but it is just a tiny peanut compared to the size of capital markets. And so I think all of these institutions, they need to think about growth. Where are we going to do with this business uh over the longer run and tokenization is a fairly obvious growth driver of capital markets for probably a couple of decades. And so that's why you see so much energy and focus. Let's get smart on it now. Let's think about how we can play in this market. What's going

to be the right infrastructure uh to invest in and let's get going. So that that's sort of the the place that the story is. I think very very early everyone can see the vision increasingly see the vision uh and understand that it's a many year long uh journey and it's time to get acting now >> yeah when we were in the tokenization tower the empire state building we were talking about you know I I had asked you what is the biggest blocker to the tokenization thesis you had mentioned institutional wallets institutional custody for these assets has that been solved I mean we only spoke a couple of months ago where are we on institutional custody Yeah. So let me uh clarify that a little bit. So I I would say it's not so much the infrastructure. You know, there is

some infrastructure. If a large financial institution wanted to uh offer wallets to its clients, it could potentially uh do that. But we need to see that the capital, the investor capital needs to move onchain to buy the assets that we are tokenizing. So just like every other part of the financial system, it's about connecting, saving, and investment. people that are borrowing money and people that have money to to lend. That's what the financial system does. So tokenization is only one half of the story. Bringing those uh assets onchain. We need to bring the capital on chain as well.

There is you know increasingly sophisticated highquality infrastructure around custody and wallets but it hasn't been adopted very widely. You know we go to all the wealth management uh platforms. you know, Morgan Stanley, Wells Fargo, these are some of our our great partners on on the ETFs, and they're just not there yet. They're not at a place where their assets, their clients can hold assets directly on chain. I think that we will get there probably over the course of the next 18 months, the first couple uh will get there and it'll take another few years until the masses of capital move on chain. So, that's what I'm looking for is not just the assets moving on chain, but the investor capital moving on chain. That's when you know you really have uh the flywheel going.

Got it. >> Zach, I wanted to ask you again about kind of some of this similar conversation, ETFs, tokenized assets, DATs. There's a a treasury company called Cippher Punk for Zcash. I know Gayscale is pretty involved in that. What is the latest with Cippher Punk to your knowledge? Um, what what is that company doing aside from just accumulating Zcash, right? Yeah, because I think some of these companies are interesting to invest in specifically for assets like Zcash considering that it's somewhat difficult to get access to specifically onchain and some exchanges do have it. The big ones do, some don't.

Cypher Punk is like an easier way to get exposure to Zcash for a lot of you know typical investors. What is this company doing other than just accumulating Zcash? What is the the kind of latest updates there? >> Let let me say a couple things on this. Um uh so digital asset treasuries they can be a fit for certain investors and they issue lots of different types of securities, common equity, preferred shares, convertible bonds uh and investors can look at all those things. Maybe those are a fit in some places. Our view would be that access to the token itself is typically what the investor is after and there are usually more efficient ways like the ETF uh to get access to that product. So, Gayscale has long offered a private fund uh ticker ZCSH

uh that holds uh Zcash token that is already available today in brokerage accounts and retirement accounts and fingers crossed uh could be an ETF uh someday. That's the vision with uh all of our products is to convert them into that efficient structure. But these types of structures, they hold the token. You can bring a token into a brokerage account or retirement account setting already. I'm not sure that you need uh the digital asset treasury structure to get that efficient uh token exposure. The other thing that I would say is is onchain access is important particularly in the case of Zcash where the fundamental rationale is about shielding and privacy. You want to be have have shielded assets. So the ETFs or related structures they can give you

investment exposure but to get that full private experience you want to uh move assets onchain into shielded uh addresses. And my own view is actually it's gotten quite easy. Uh I would recommend and I have no financial stake. This is just I think the product is cool. I would recommend the zodle uh wallet zod. Uh it has near intense uh infrastructure in the back end. So you can take assets from any other chain USDC on Ethereum or USDC on Salana or the Salana token itself anything like that and move it pretty seamlessly into a shielded address on Zcash. So these would be the two angles that I would uh offer is simple efficient structures uh like our Zcash trust product that holds

the token or things like the Zod wallet which make it relatively easy to onboard into a shielded address. >> Yeah. So Zach, last time you came on as well, you mentioned that it's not a crypto winter, it's a cold front. Looking at the price of Bitcoin right now 80,400 the highest price in quite a while. Ethereum 2367. uh you your take is seemingly looking strong that the four-year cycle is over. Obviously, hindsight looks right right now. We had uh a a pretty big TA guy on earlier crypto Mike from uh the Netherlands and he talked about how there's some levels that are coming here. Your take is that we're basically going to have a shorter crypto cold front this time than previous bare markets. What do you need to see to

verify and validate that that is indeed correct and that the bottom is in? What's your current view of the of the macro kind of Bitcoin and the majors? >> Look, I there's a lot of inputs of course. Um, and I think that the technical analysis I I do listen to some of that commentary myself. I think navigating markets, you do need to look at uh at the charts sometimes, but let me let me lean on fundamentals a little bit just to to add some color to that. What I would like to see is first let's get the markup of clarity uh in the Senate Banking Committee. I think the dominoes have been falling uh there. We got Kevin Worsh confirmed as a Fed chair. That clears the deck uh for the Senate Banking Committee to take up clarity. We saw some potential agreement

on the yield issue. So moving forward in clarity, I think that will be one very important fundamental uh sign. And then the other fundamental issue is just the the macro picture holding up. Uh okay. Uh stocks have had an incredible run uh lately. Of course, um if we can sustain the highs, I think crypto can continue to uh recover and and maybe break some new highs, break above 80 90,000, those would be great, uh levels to see, uh broken. Um if equity markets were to wobble because the military conflict in the in Iran is not totally over and we have more challenges in energy markets, that could be a setback for lots of assets, including our asset class. So, those are some of the fundamental things

I'm I'm looking at. I can't I don't know that we can say we're totally out of the cold front. Of course, it's a a balmy spring day in Miami and I hope that you know it feels that way in crypto relatively soon. Things are looking good. Um I think these are generally good levels to enter. I'd like to see a couple more boxes checked before I can say crypto winter is totally behind us. >> Yeah, >> Zack Pendle adoption. >> Yeah, thank you so much for joining. >> My pleasure, guys. Have a great week in Miami. All right, we'll see you around. >> Cheers, man. Pump it. Grayscale. Grayscale is coming to buy your bags, ladies and gentlemen. They are going to market to the boomers, to the RAS, the adviserss. Zach's your guy.

Thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> Beautiful. Um >> I mean, come on. >> Yeah. >> Are you bullish or what? >> What else do you need to hear? >> There's nothing. There's nothing else. That's >> I need this commodities rotation to hit this uranium B. >> Like Bitcoin's stuck in uranium. >> I'm stuck in uranium. How we looking today, boys? Not looking too hot. Uh we're just down a little bit. that that monthly chart is looking insane. Um, wow. This this event is getting full, man. It's getting packed. Shout out to Gamma Prime. Let's give Gamma some love, man. >> Starting to get overflow into the podcast area.

>> This event is filling up, guys. It is There is a bullishness in the air here in Miami. I'll tell you that. I don't know what it is, if it's Bitcoin over 80 or if it's just the general vibe, but there is definitely more bullishness in the air. >> I think Bitcoin over 80 doesn't hurt. helps. I think that probably helps. >> Next up, we've got Ryad. >> Absolutely >> on Global Capital Flows. Ryad is the founder of Rayad Group in Dubai and uh it's an absolute pleasure to have Rayad on the show. Pleasure to meet you guys.

Pleasure to meet you. Thank you. Thank you man. >> But it's a very basic watch, I think, for Miami wear like better watches. This is my basic like guys. Watch Minus. Bitcoin must be above 80. Rad, welcome to Miami. Welcome to the rollup. Tell us a bit about what you do and about your group out of Dubai. Kind of what what you guys do in space. >> [ __ ] legend. >> Hola Miami with Rob. What's going on, Rob? How are you, man? Rob, >> welcome back. Good to see you.

>> Good to be back, gentlemen. >> Yes, we're back. We're live. >> How's Miami treating you, man? >> Miami is treating me real well. >> Good, man. It's been I got in yesterday morning and just been running around from event to event to meeting. >> Busy man. >> And so what's the main prerogative out here? What are you hearing? You're always you you're able to just kind of pry out of people like you know people just I think they confide in you. What are you hearing? >> Appreciate that. So really I'd say three things. First off, industry's rattled. >> There's a lot of people who are just kind of rattled. >> I'm hearing, you know, >> LPs are getting skittish. VCs are getting skittish. People are just a bit scared right now. But despite that, I'm still hearing a lot about, you know, the sector that I think is really where

things are going, and that's >> RWAS. >> People are talking about buying them on the secondary. They're talking about selling them on the secondary. They're talking about running leverage on them. >> They're still talk they're talking about trunching them. >> I'm hearing I mean, I'm not going to spoil anyone's alpha. I'm hearing all sorts of like interesting little ideas on these emerging assets. I'm hearing about stuff where people are doing uh forex trades and hedging out certain amounts of risk, generating yields that way. It all still looks like it's heading in the same direction. And what I'm kind of getting is that the industry, we're at this low point.

Everyone's like not quite sure which way it's going, if it's going to work or not. But those of us who are actually building here, I I haven't seen conviction this strong in years. >> Everyone sees, okay, all the bullshit's finally washed out. we can just go and build these RWA loops, this uh cheaper form of margin and really start to grow DeFi back based on true revenue producing first principles, not Ponzi this time.

>> Right? >> The other thing that I'm and I'm frequently the one saying this, but I've been sharing this idea with a few people. I had this realization about not just you know like we're playing a lot with you know interest bearing RBAS right now fixed income stuff tokenized funds that's been really the big driver of the current RWBA focus but I'm also now kind of coming to realization as I talk to more people about it I'm realizing that they're coming to the same realization equities are going to be a big deal and the reason for that is cheaper borrow cheaper margin.

>> Yeah, >> no one's noticed this, but if you go on Morpho and you look at say the Centur PYUSD vault on Morpho, the borrow on BTC in that vault is like 2.5%. How the hell is the borrow 2.5? PayPal is incentivized in that vault with 4% on top in PYUSD. So, the lenders are making like two and then PayPal's given them four. The lenders are making six because the assets that that trade is denominated in are being held in the stables.

You know, you're borrowing the PYUSD. The actual dollars that make up PYD are in treasuries. They're generating yield. So, PayPal, this is actually Clarity compliant. they can pass through >> that yield to the lenders on Morpho and thereby the borrowers can pay much lower rates while the lenders are still actually making more than they would even if the borrowers were at normal levels. Yeah. >> So where this goes I think and why I'm seeing okay we've got our tokenized funds. I'm playing in that industry. I love that industry. But there's another angle here where there's actually like true margin on things like Nvidia where you know in the traditional world you might be playing paying so for plus 100 >> but you bring something like this in you

can have cheaper cost to margin on chain. And if it's cheaper to run leverage on things like Nvidia on chain, then there is no reason that all of the money that is currently running leverage on Nvidia offchain will not end up onchain. >> And and specifically on why it's cheaper to do this onchain. You mentioned sofur plus 100 is how you might get leverage on Nvidia offchain. Is it the incentives? Will those incentives eventually run dry?

>> No, it's sustainable. from the backing of the of the stable coins being held in treasuries. >> Okay. >> I think RLUSD, PYUSD, Agura, they're all doing some form of this. >> Okay. >> And basically, for every dollar that in some of those stables, they're putting a dollar into T bills. They're making sofur. >> So, they can sustainably pay sofur >> as an additional incentive on any lend borrow market to the lenders. mean that the borrowers can take whatever the current prime rate is minus, right?

>> And it's it's much better for the borrowers and the lenders are still making the exact same. >> Whereas offchain, they would extend the cash, but there wouldn't be any interest on >> there's no interest on the cash. Exactly. This only works with stable coins, >> right? Because they can issue the receipt token, if you will, and still keep the interest. >> Exactly. You got it. >> Very cool. And so just remind people how Infinifi fits into this stack. >> Yeah. So what we're doing is we're making it so you can allocate capital into this new world. As these tokenized funds, as these tokenized forms of yield come on chain, we're the guys who got the system set up to allow you, somebody who doesn't really know what their duration preferences is, who wants to be

liquid even to just deploy capital and get exposure to that return source to a variety of those return sources. actually. >> Mhm. >> Our system automatically deploys that across a bunch of different duration assets, most of which are now RWAS and a little bit of CFI lending, but you could honestly call that RWAS as well at this point. And in doing so, we're able to give you access to a higher return than you'll be able to get in a correspondingly liquid asset since we're deploying a decent amount of your capital out into this stuff, even if you're on our liquid side.

And furthermore, we are also sitting there with these RWAs that we then acquire on your behalf. Well, and we're able to do more complex operations with them. Much in the same way that a traditional banking system would, but without actually being anything that you could classly consider a bank. >> Yeah. >> Want to make sure I draw that delineation. What I'm really excited about is we started out looking at RWAS as okay, we can deploy capital to them and they are much better risk return profile than a lot of onchain native stuff just because they have actual real return systems uh that are robust and aren't pegged to bull bear cycles. As we got

deeper, we realized, hey, we can do liquidations on these things. We're able to be the guys who backs stop liquidity for people who want to run loops on these assets. >> Yeah. >> And as we've gone even deeper now that we're getting into that world, we anchored him global. Um that's Midas' new tokenization of fasteners GDAF very nice uh domestic trade receivables fund and in doing so we secured first write a refusal on the secondaries for that asset. Initially, we were just thinking, oh yeah, we're just going to, you know, do the liquidations, but then we realized as we got even deeper, people need to be able to buy and sell these RWAs as they're getting in and out of these loops.

>> People, you know, they're doing this through folks like uh folks like 3F are working on this. Folks like Keyring are working on this. >> People have built our RFQS, the multi-quid guys, symbiotics built something. Um, the folks over at Fision have built an RFQ and all these platforms are trying to solve this problem and they're offering venues, but what's lacking is somebody who holds inventory and it's really interesting because we naturally hold inventory in these assets.

>> Like basically they need a liquidity backs stop for somebody to be able to provide them these assets >> that they need someone to provide them these assets and they need somebody to be able to buy these assets off them. Let's say you're trying to enter a loop. Um, let's see. Let's say you're trying to exit a loop. That's that's the harder one. Entering is not that awful, but exiting can be a pain because if it's a 30-day redemption, you've got say five x leverage. So, five legs of the loop. Each one's say a million bucks. All right. You could redeem your first million, wait 30 days, get your money. Redeem your second million, wait 30 days, get your money.

>> Yeah. Or you could even maybe there's a way to do bulk. But even if you do bulk, you're still you've got dead capital because when you initiate a redemption with these assets, there's actually a up to about 30-day waiting period where you're not receiving money at all because they're just rolling the capital out of the fund and into your redemption fund. >> So, you're not getting interest during that period of time. So, you have dead capital. This is not making any money that's damaging your ability to generate returns. So regardless of whether you can redeem the bulk or not, you either have a very long redemption timeline or you have just dead capital.

So what's really needed is a way to exit those loops fast to sell that position to somebody else. And what we can do since we already hold some of this on our balance sheet is we can show up and buy out chunks of your loop. and we'll buy that out out at say say it's 40 pips with five different legs. We buy one leg. We maybe go in do some magic on that leg, buy another leg. It ends up being about 2% spread on the capital that we put up to facilitate that.

And what's really incredible is because we already hold this asset on our balance sheet. I'm not going to I'm I'm already spilling more beans than my team would probably like me to talking about this product. >> But basically, we're operating as a dealer here. That's the conventional term that you would apply. We're not legally operating as a dealer. I want to draw that distinction very cleanly. We're not legally operating as a dealer. That requires registration. But we are operating analogous to a dealer. And what that means is that you can get out of that position in a way that you otherwise wouldn't be able to since it's a levered position. It's much harder to run through an RFQ.

>> And since you're getting a very small amount of, you know, slippage if you're doing this on an RFQ and you're taking, you know, >> 20 bips on 5 million bulk. Yeah, >> that's 20 bips is not that much. 40 bips even on a on a 30-day asset, 40 bits isn't impressive. But if you then relever it as you're buying it out, which we can do, then that adds up in our book since we're taking on the leverage. We're basically refinancing the position here. >> Yeah. >> And now we've got a 2% spread on a one month redemption asset, which when you annualize it is about 24% APR.

>> Yeah. And this this sort of operation happens a lot more commonly than liquidations, which means that this is far more frequent flows for our depositors. The even better part is like, okay, we now hold this position. What do we do with it? >> We have a duration mandate with Infinifi. We're supposed to hold stuff on our books. >> So, we can turn around and we can make the market. >> We can say, hey, you know, you want to enter this position, Andy? We'll sell you, you know, however many legs of this loop you want. We slowly off get rid of it off our balance sheet. We sell it to you at say an 20 bit discount. We're still taking a spread. We're still profiting. But you're getting in this position cheaper than you would have if you just minute it raw, right? You

always have incentive to, you know, take that free money if you're trying to get in. >> And that's where Infinifi becomes so useful because we have that mandate to hold this stuff on our balance sheet. We have that mandate for duration. We can buy these things, hold them for a while, turn around, sell them, and if we really need to get them off our books because we've gone past a duration we don't want, we already hold the bulk asset, right? So, let's say this is a $5 million loop that we've got here, this position, we turn around and we exit 5 million off our actual balance sheet, right? And we get five million cash 30 days later. Take that five million cash, buy out the loop, now we're back to the same balance sheet we had. Yeah. Yeah.

>> You just pocketed the money. >> And so this has made you famously the duration guy in digital assets and tokenization. Um I'm curious where that mandate comes from. Maybe just in the last few minutes here as we wrap up, could you give us a sense of the mandate is in general? Where does the duration mandate come from and round out maybe the rest of the mandate when it comes to Infinifi? Yeah. So, our general mandate with Infinifi is very similar to what a traditional banking system would look like if you built it on chain. And the idea of a traditional banking system is that you and your friends get together and you want to have two things. You want to be able to lend money to some guy for say a month and get a higher rate than you'd

get if you lent money to him for like a day. >> Mh. >> But you want to be able to get your money back within a day. So, if you do it yourself, you can't do that. But if instead 10 of you pull your money together and give the guy a loan, then maybe five of you can all pull your money at once and the guy still got the loan and you can all get your money back. You're getting a slightly lower rate than if you just gave the guy the money directly, but you're also now able to get liquid when you need to get liquid. That's what Infinifi's general thesis is. Except instead of just having those liquid depositors, we also have what's called demand depositors, which is our junior trunch. Those guys are telling us, hey, we want one leak

liquidity, we want two week liquidity, four week, six week, 8 week, and they're telling us how fast they want their money back when they need it to come back to them. And if they give us, you know, money for longer, we give them a higher rate. Then we turn around and we use that information to inform what's called a duration ladder where we're able to say, "Hey, 25% of people want, you know, their money back in 13 weeks and 75% want their money back in four weeks." >> So therefore, when we give out loans to these guys we were talking about earlier, we can give 75% of the loans to people who have will give it back within four weeks and 25% to people who give it back within 13 weeks. Mhm.

>> And that's the general way that Infy works. We're able to create these higher returns by pushing this capital further out the duration curve. >> Yep. >> While also being able to automatically form this ladder from user input. >> Yep. >> Very cool. >> And Rob, I know that you guys thinking about kind of getting this out there with the token and kind of more launches upcoming. How are you thinking about these things? >> Yeah. To me, a good token is designed as an incentive mechanism and a way to pass value to the holder

while also incentivizing the holder to provide valuable input to the system. Off the rip, I'm going to keep things pretty simple. >> I mean, you guys know me. I'm I'm terrible about complexity. I love it way too much. But when you're talking about a good launch, you want it to have a very straightforward narrative. So, we're going to have a very straightforward narrative. Down the line, I want to source all sorts of information from people, but we'll get there. >> In terms of product stuff, I mean, I I basically just outlined the frontier product that we've got cooking. Yeah, >> that's the uh we call it a repo and that's about what it's analogous to is where we're doing these financings

refinancings of these positions. >> That'll be coming out later. Well, I don't I'm not going to say this quarter. I'm not going to pledge myself to that. It'll it'll be sometime in the next >> three months. >> It'll be soon. >> Three months. Thank you. Soon. >> Awesome. That's all I'm going to say about other launches as well soon. >> Well, we're going to keep an eye out for it. Uh Rob, thanks so much as always for uh for joining us here live from Miami. It's always a pleasure. I could listen to you all day, man. You've got such a melodic melody in your voice. Really slow things down, help us understand.

Always appreciate it coming on and hope uh hope to have you on again soon. >> Thanks for having me, guys. >> Enjoy your weekend, Rob. All right. >> Likewise. See you next. >> All righty, guys. Duration is coming on chain. Uh, fixed products are coming on chain, duration's coming on chain. >> Guys, we are going to pass you to our yesterday's reruns again, get you set up there with another conversation from Yatsu this time and get our next guest set up. We'll be right back. >> All right. >> One of your one of your dozens of times in Miami.

>> No, actually we have a couple portfolio companies in Miami. um you know in for instance um Igloo uh the Pachipenu guys are basically you know based here and actually originally Yuga Labs had their base here as well so so there's a bunch of companies that so been been in Miami beautiful weather it's great um nothing to complain about >> busy as hell I have to say I mean it took a long time from a traffic standpoint yeah you can say you know booming city is uh the traffic is one indicator of that >> yeah with F1 as well >> F1 this weekend we had the Cadillac championship at Trump's golf course so it's been a lot happening ing here in Miami. Um, >> also hearing some big news coming from Igloo potentially sooner than later.

Just hearing things. >> No comment. >> Oh boy. I uh Okay, we'll save that for later. Um, well, Anamoka Brands has been in the space for a long long time. Um, and and we'll get into the AI side, the agentic side, stable coins as well. But before we do dig in, why don't we just get a a quick update? Um I think the last time we saw the last time I saw you was uh Korea the end of uh 2025 I think a little bit earlier in the year for Andy. Um what what has the first half of 2026 been like for Animoka?

>> Well the world certainly has changed right from from 25. Well first of all I think a couple big news for us you know our joint venture Anchor Point which is a joint venture between us um Standard Charter and Hong Telecom was one of two uh sort of recipients of the stablecoin license in Hong Kong. The other one being HSBC. Uh so that that was sort of a sort of you know um a pretty momentous moment in the sense that it was like three years in the making. Uh and also sort of an indicator that the rest of the world is also looking at stable coins not just the US. Uh the second thing of course is uh you know we just like literally just a week or or so ago sort of closed around for NUVA. Uh NOVA is an incubator project that we

basically did together with Provenence. Uh myself um Mike Kagny and then Sachin as well are basically joining the board of that. So that's kind of you know um a big thing. Uh and then you know from the other thing for us is you know the agentic AI stuff. I know we're going to talk about a little bit but you know we rebranded it from animal commands to Hello Minds. Um that we think is really completely going to alter the space. Uh you know we believe you know I I talk about sort of the agentic web as kind of like web 4 basically the next situation. Uh and why you know it's also going to save basically onchain blockchain in a way that um uh has been sort of struggling you could say. Uh and of course the other thing for Animoka is that uh you know last year we announced

that we were planning to go public in NASDAQ with a reverse merger with currency group that's still sort of you know um on the way. Uh and of course you know there's progress um there's developments in I can't talk too much about that per se cuz all public um but uh but that's sort of something that's still still on track. Um and our business itself you know we are now tracking over 630 maybe even 650 portfolio companies. We continue to invest. we continue to sort of you know um expand in the space. Uh you know we're big believers in it even though it has been a tough year. I mean we got to just say you know um so so one hand it's been positive um with the policies the regular shift on the other hand it's been negative um and you know our space

has a lot of drama. I mean, now the most recent one with World Liberty and Justin, it's like, you know, filling up my feed. I'm just like, you know, like, oh, wow. Okay. So, um, you know, so it's it's it's uh I got to wonder if like, you know, basically sort of drama series are down because crypto is just so it's just so much going on there. But yeah. >> Yeah, man. So, we've been having the I think we had the figure team on quite a few times, Mike and a couple of the digital assets guys. And yeah, they are building on um this blockchain providence. They've also got this HELOC product. Helix will be available in Nova as well.

>> Yeah, that's grown significantly. Tell us a bit more about the thesis of Nuvo. What is the overarching vision here for what you guys are trying to achieve and what makes what what makes this different from other RWAs or tokenization uh platforms? Yeah, I mean so first of all u you know it starts off obviously with helocks but RWA generally first of all as a thematic it's you know it's it's not just on everyone's lips it's basically going to be I think one of the most important ways in which we can bring the masses basically to digital assets because of stuff that they understand right um NUVA of course is we can think of it as the merging of the expertise of a group like figure and providence that really understand essentially the space in particular sort of institutions productization development side of things and then

we're the consumer side in terms of you know like I mean if you think about how do you know what happened in the Philippines or in Indonesia or in Asia not just expanding the Asian market for RWAs but also bringing essentially people access to an asset class that they wouldn't normally have had access to and then of course also adding an alternative asset class into the RWA space as well. you know, a couple years ago, we announced uh more of a more of a let's call it an experiment, the tokenization of a of of a Stratavaris violin, which is a super expensive violin that, you know, together with Galaxy at the time. Uh, and this was pioneering because it demonstrated that you could actually tokenize something really valuable and make it more available. Um, and and that sort of is is that next evolution of that. Um, and

right now, you know, I think there's it's no such thing as there's only one. There's going to be many many RW platforms, but you know, which ones are the going to ones that going to reach the consumer market as well. Uh, and the one that also has a reach into Asia, which is really sort of where we're strong at. >> Yeah. You know, one of the things that Andy and I have been talking about on the show has been the power law. It feels like it's started to play out in some of the categories of the market so far. You look at per, you can kind of see hyperlid and lighter pulling ahead. You look at prediction markets, you see Poly Market and Cautious, the clear market leaders. In some senses it still feels very early but then in the other sense it's like how can anyone ever

catch up to the poly markets and call sheets of the world feels like they will just continue to increase their lead. What categories do you think are still early enough where we haven't seen the power law play out? They're still unclear market leaders. Do you think this is broadly the case or do you think there are certain categories where where this is more the case? So I think one of the reasons why I guess the power law apply seems to apply so so so so much in in some sense is because of the concentration of capital right because capital and money has a network effect in and of itself right liquidity begets liquidity right so if you have a lot of liquidity in one center then you say oh well where can I get the bigger bets where I can get the bigger spreads you're going to go there

>> but what I also what I would want to challenge there is that when you look at decentralization when you look at for instance you know you could argue that why was it even possible to have essentially someone like hyperlid it when you had the major sort of centralized exchanges for right you know it wasn't >> all right we are back now we've got Sam Newman from defi.com it's his first day at defi.com so welcome to the team here Sam and welcome to the show brother >> thank you for having me yeah first day so in the deep end but I'm looking forward to the conversation >> absolutely well as I understand it defi.com is still in private alpha uh and so uh we are still yet to yet have yet to see uh you know what defi.com

entails, but I think people are very excited about it. Obviously, it's a it's a great domain. Um can you give people I know it's your first day, but can you give people like just a high level of what defi.com is, what they can expect, and why they should join up uh join the wait list? >> Yeah, sure. So, it's it's still still early days. We're we're in private alpha now, but um I think the the thesis really with defi.com is that it's um putting the the identity layer into into DeFi. So, as well as um kind of getting your your DeFi ID, which is uh similar to an ENS domain where you can send and receive funds directly to your DeFi ID, underneath that there's there's layers of privacy so that you you know you can we use stealth addresses underneath the

hood so that the the positions that you take, the spending that you do, all of these things are private and kept separate from your your DeFi ID and no one can trace them back to you. At least it makes it very very difficult. The other the other layer is around selective disclosures. So we use uh verifiable credentials, ZK proofs, all of these um these new technologies for actually disclosing certain information to whoever needs it. So you can get access without providing you know the whole house.

>> Yeah. Okay. Very cool. Um obviously it's been uh tumultuous uh few weeks uh here in DeFi, but people are still very excited. I mean, all the conversations we're having here today have been about maximizing the efficient frontier, bringing these capital flows on chain, ultimately flowing the entire suite of tokenized assets onchain into DeFi protocols. Um, and so what your l what is your lens, you know, of DeFi broadly? I I'd also love to just get a bit more on your background before you were at defi.com because that is still quite recent. Uh, you know, what were you doing? What led you to defi.com?

Um and then we'll we'll dig into some of the DeFi elements. >> Yeah, sure. So, my background um was first of all in in traditional finance working for for Meil Lynch and in financial services for for Thompson Reuters and then I made the the pivot into crypto and worked at um couple of layer 2s and then and then focused on DeFi. So I was working um at a DIY aggregator called summerfi which is um spun out of the make it um worked on some smaller projects around defi as well which then led me to to wallet connect. So I've been working uh on the infrastructure side uh particularly around crypto payments and bits and bobs like that and now yeah now now taking up the role at defi.com. So that's that's what's brought me here in DeFi more

generally. I think that like yeah there's there's been a lot of a lot of discussion recently about um you know kelp dao and these things and I think even though it was obviously a negative event it's shown resilience with the the kind of unified bailout that the the space is not going away because of these things and we're we're just getting stronger each time with the discussions we've been having this this week um particularly around privacy I think that institutions are taking a lot more notice of this it feels like it's actually becoming accessible to them where previously wasn't.

>> As well as the the privacy angle, there's the the regulation angle which is becoming much clearer for them now. >> And I think we're we're at the right level of maturity where these these institutions are going to are going to come and bring a lot of capital on the chain hopefully. >> Yeah, absolutely. It it certainly feels that way. Uh and it also seems as if these hacks have not slowed down the institutions. It is still early days in terms of you know resolving some of these kelp incidents and plenty more beyond kelp. But you know just from all these conversations it seems as if you know DTC announced this tokenization you know service that'll be piloting in the summer. It seems as if it's all systems go on tokenization. The DeFi hacks

haven't slowed things down. Is this what what you've seen on the ground as well? >> Yeah definitely. And and I think that even though there's a lot more announcements coming now um these things have been in the works like >> under behind closed doors for these institutions for a while and these are some of the discussions we've been having. So um over the last month there have been couple of months there's been some some big uh hacks and and some funds lost in DeFi but there's already a lot of investment um that's been happening here. I I don't think it's going to put put institutions off. I think they're willing to kind of double down on this and carry on pushing in the same direction it seems.

>> Yeah, absolutely. Um and so as we're we're looking to onboard more uh both institution and and also retail into the space, defi.com uh again it's very mysterious. We're not really sure exactly what it's going to be when it inevitably launches, but you know given its nature uh you know it seems as more of a retail consumerf facing product. You mentioned some of the, you know, send, save, earn, uh, you know, components of what a neo bank or financial super app could entail. Um, what's your thesis on these neo banks in general? There's there's several several of them out there now. Does it make sense for, you know, more narrow lanes for these apps? You know, someone to

specialize on DeFi, someone to specialize on, you know, earning maybe non-speculative products. Um, or do you partake more in the the financial super app thesis, right? Something like a Robin Hood where they've talked about savings accounts, they've got Robin Hood uh gold, you know, they've got earn products, they've got equities, prediction markets. Now, it's really becoming, you know, quite expansive. Um, and so we've got that on one hand, on the other end, you know, very niche, very specialized offerings. What's your perspective here? >> I I would I would say somewhere in the middle of those those two things. And I know that's not really a direct answer, but um I I don't think you need something to necessarily specialize in DeFi, but I can I can see a world where

a lot more um of traditional finance and personal finance is actually coming on chain. People are starting to get paid in crypto. >> People are making payments in crypto. All of these things. So, so how do you solve that for for people? you you recreate um and hopefully build better for them something that they have as a as a bank. Um so >> the ability to the ability to accept payments, the ability to actually make payments from one account, the ability to keep that all private um in the same way that you do with you know traditional finance and paying on your card um and also the ability to earn and invest from there as well. I think

there's there's a risk of going too broad with these things and and there's lots of hot topics around, you know, prediction markets and things and you can you can add that in, but it there's a risk that you dilute the the product itself and potentially put put users off. So I think I think the key for us is abstracting away the complexity for for the retail user >> um and keeping it almost familiar to what they they experience now outside of crypto but actually bringing that on chain um particularly you know in uh emerging economies where crypto payments and getting paid in crypto is going to be big over the next few years.

>> Yeah. And and how much do you think uh and I take it the answer is probably different in emerging markets versus you know more more uh of the traditional markets but you know when when we have consumer brands consumer trust in you know uh in some of the larger financial brands that are out there the consumer behavior dictates them you know checking these apps regularly. It's part of their normal behavior. It's part of part of their habits you know that they're going to log into their online banking. Do you think it's more likely that we integrate some of these DeFi concepts into the the you know the too big to fail banks out there? um that seems like there's again you know this is kind of and it's not so reductive right this is ultimately there

there's middle uh middle ground here but it seems like that part is moving somewhat slow you know Wells Fargo JP Morgan kind of been dipping their toes in but haven't you know fully embraced even stable coins which feels uh you know feels pretty ubiquitous at this point but it's difficult to bring consumers from these apps that you know they're accustomed to a new environment and and get them onboarded and so which do you think is a more likely path that we're able to onboard users? Uh is it just pounding the doors on these institutions getting their adoption of some of these underlying protocols even if it is invisible in the back end at least these users are using these protocols versus doing the education

doing the onboarding of a new environment and bringing them into you know what a consumerf facing at Neo Bank could look like. >> I think ultimately there's space for both approaches and I think both approaches will have some success. I'm sure in the in the long-term future there'll be some convergence at some point. But at defi.com we we do want to kind of maintain the principles and the benefits of self- custody and educating the users um about actually taking control of their own their own finance rather than having those those finances custodied via you know a fintech app or or um a bank. So we we also have a kind of an educational track as a

complimentary product to defi.com which is going to be providing a lot of content around this and actually going to be hopefully um you know driving users through that education path and to and to defi.com and actually bring onboarding them onto.com eventually. >> Yeah. And and I take it the social element is is is significantly important at defi.com. You're giving the identity to some of these users. Um, typically this has been a very anonymous or pseudonmous, you know, type of industry. How do you expect that to change as this becomes more, you know, front-facing?

How do you think the identity layer is ultimately going to start to interact? Obviously, we all have, you know, Venmo, Cash App, you can send usernames, you know, money and that sort of thing. But when it becomes an investment and becomes DeFi and becomes yield bearing, how do you think that starts to shift the social layer? Although although it's a DIY ID and and DeFi investing and investing in DeFi protocols is part of the product, DeFi is decentralized finance, right? that that encompasses a whole thing outside of investment um as well. And the social aspect of it is going to be is going to be important, but it doesn't

necessarily mean that um you know the underlying investment is directly visible to everyone else on your social network, right? It's more of an unique identifier for you to um receive funds. And on top of that as well, you'll also have this progressive reputational scoring where if you exhibit good behavior on chain, you'll grow that scoring over time. And then the hope is that that will give you access to, for example, better rates on chain, these kind of things because ultimately your your risk to the counterparty should be lower. At the moment, there's none of that on DeFi, right? You turn up to a to a protocol and you don't know who is borrowing from you. That's why we have

overcolateralized loans. I would love to see a world in the future where this reputation scoring um kind of flips that on its head and people can trust people that meet certain criteria with this scoring and you can provide under collateralized loans for example. >> And and what does this look like? is it an NFT that sort of has like metadata that updates right if you miss a payment or make a late payment or something according to some you know schedule of you know you you kind of lose some points according to this NFT and that's like you know you mentioned like an ENS like that is your identity your reputation on chain and then you end up with different financial characteristics around that reputation. Yeah, that

that's right. And we're still working on kind of this the spec for that and how that's going to play out. Um, and as as I said, it's it's early days for for me and for for Defi.com. But yes, that's that's the idea is that this scoring will be tied to your your DeFi ID and you'll use that to kind of move throughout the >> the decentralized finance world. >> Very cool. Well, Sam, thank you so much for uh spending some time with us uh sharing a bit about defi.com. Very interesting to hear how the identity, the reputational layer will start to interact with onchain finance, which uh you know uh up until this point has not had any of this. Everyone has been treated somewhat the same. And for better or for worse, you know, we're all unique. So very, very cool to see. And

uh thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Robie. Cheers. >> See you next time. >> Cheers. >> Cheers. >> All right, guys. Uh we're going to take a quick break and then uh we'll be back with our next guest. Uh in the meantime, please enjoy the rest of our Yatsu interview from yesterday. Yeah, I mean so first of all um you know it starts off obviously with helocks but RWA generally first of all as a thematic it's you know it's it's not just on everyone's lips it's basically going to be I think one of the most important ways in which we can bring the masses basically to digital assets because of stuff that they understand right um NUVA of course is we can think of it as the merging of the expertise of a group like figure and providence that really understand essentially the space in

particular sort of institutions productization development side of things and then we're the consumer side in terms you know like I mean if you think about how do you know what happened in the Philippines or in Indonesia or in Asia not just expanding the Asian market for RWAs but also bringing essentially people access to an asset class that they wouldn't normally have had access to and then of course also adding an alternative asset class into the RWA space as well. you know, a couple years ago, we announced, you know, more of a more of a what's called an experiment, the tokenization of a of of a Stratavaris violin, which is a super expensive violin that, you know, together with Galaxy at the time. Uh, and this was pioneering because it demonstrated that you could actually tokenize something really valuable and make it more available. Um, and and that

sort of is is that next evolution of that. Um, and right now, you know, I think there's it's no such thing as there's only one. There's going to be many many RW platforms, but you know, which ones are the going to ones that going to reach the consumer market as well. Uh, and the one that also has a reach into Asia, which is really sort of where we're strong at. >> Yeah. You know, one of the things that Andy and I have been talking about on the show has been the power law. It feels like it's started to play out in some of the categories of the market so far. You look at per, you can kind of see hyperlid and lighter pulling ahead. You look at prediction markets, you see poly market and cautious as the clear market leaders. In some senses it still

feels very early but then in the other sense it's like how can anyone ever catch up to the poly markets and call sheets of the world feels like they will just continue to increase their lead. What categories do you think are still early enough where we haven't seen the power law play out? They're still unclear market leaders. Do you think this is broadly the case or do you think there are certain categories where where this is more the case? So I think one of the reasons why I guess the power law apply seems to apply so so so so much in in some sense is because of the concentration of capital right because capital and money has a network effect in and of itself right liquidity gets liquidity right so if you have a lot of liquidity in one center then you say oh well where can I get the bigger bets

where I can get the bigger spreads you're going to go there >> but what I also what I would want to challenge there is that when you look at decentralization when you look at for instance you know you could argue that why was it even possible to have essentially someone like hyperlquid when you had the major sort of centralized exchanges for instance, right? You know, it wasn't exactly it wasn't like per was invented at hyperlquid, right? You've had basically sort of, you know, these type of sort of futures in other centralized exchanges before. And yet here it drew people. It was because the product was better, it was more efficient. And the other thing I would also say it was more transparent, right?

At least to the eyes of traders, they saw benefit. So it really comes down to what is the innovation, right? So the power law applies when you're all playing the same game. But when you play the game differently, that's when the power law no longer applies in the same way. And I think we see this in all sorts of all sorts of industries. So I would say if you can find a way which you can play the game differently, which doesn't always work by the way, right? But when you play it differently, then it's all up all up for grabs, right? So now in classic sense, RWAS, I think there's clearly no winner at this point. And you know, again, I think there's also a geographic issue as well. things like poly market and kalshi do feel to me that eventually it's going to have to

move into the regulated space certain aspects of it right so politics probably not sports you know like like for instance certainly um you know I won't comment on the US but certainly in Hong Kong it's not possible because in Hong Kong things like sports betting is definitely in the category of a a sort of lotteryy's license and in Hong Kong it's under the jockey club so so there's certain categories where right now you know it's a little bit like we're not paying attention to it that doesn't mean that it's okay right which has kind of been life story of a lot of crypto activity, right? Uh and so that will come into the regulated space. The same thing with stable coins as well, by the way, right? People talk about sort of, you know, stable coins, you know, like Tether and Circle, they obviously have a

market lead, but when banks are coming in, when you have regulators coming in, right, like you know, the stable coin, you know, with anchor point, uh, you know, that we have basically with Standard Chart and Hong Telecom, that's an example of something that requires a regulated setup. Is it going to be possible to someone launch sort of a stable coin in those regions uh in an unregulated fashion? probably not in the in the future maybe in the short term it doesn't matter right so that kind of stuff as well right so I think I think there there are these elements so I don't know that we have sort of the classic power laws come into play uh because there's also innovation I mean you could have said that about taxis versus Uber you could say that about sort of AI right but it's also so it's

just can you play the game differently right um and of course the one thing that you know one could also argue is like over things like things like gaming everyone's like saying gaming is dead all that kind of stuff actually from our perspective actually from our perspective and we can talk about a little bit about AI agents later because we think actually that's the tooling for that we think actually is an example where you know um it's still a multi-billion dollar space right and you know if you look at NFTs you know last 30-day trading volume about $250 to $300 million right so it's not nothing right um so if you are the market leader in that era you're doing okay right it's just that maybe and of course what's driving that is also interesting which is interesting enough Pokemon right so it's not

trading cards and Pokemon cards flying right now. >> Exactly. And blockchain, what did it do? It made it more transparent, more available, more accessible. Right. So, so again, one would have said, well, are NFTs dead? Not at all. Right. And more importantly, that market is growing and other people are saying, well, Pokemon did that actually how could I do that? How could do different things? And we're going to see a different type of onchain experience because of that. Right. So, so it's it's still very much early days, right? I think it's very too early to say. >> Yeah. Yeah. getting into that kind of AI agent uh conversation a bit bit of a segue. We have a question from the audience. Does Yat own a Sooi Play, the handheld gaming device built by the Sui team?

>> Uh I do not. Um so I mean we you know we we do have uh you know all sorts of gaming devices but I do not have a a Suie play. I I think honestly I think these these are devices that are cool but they're kind of early right. I I had one of the early Solana phones and then forced to experiment around it. Um but you know I would say the real sort of the real gamecher uh to us is agentic AI because agentic AI is sort of similar to to my thinking a little bit how sort of you know AI kind of replacing apps right they're building everything for you for instance like the other day I basically had my AI agents literally just make a sort of custom game uh because you know I I for me it was like 5 minutes I just

said oh make me a whle game but don't make it like five letters make it seven letters give it this you know what kind of you know make make it based on geography or something boom boom boom done in five or 10 minutes put a website launch it out that's it entertainment for just me and my family and my friends >> maybe it's the only game I'll ever play on that one who cares right or maybe I can share with friends right so in that sense traditional ways of software so different applications are all going >> all righty guys we are back at the capital summit here in Miami I am joined by Monica Monica welcome to the show good to have you >> thank you >> I just missed your panel and your talk.

Maybe just catch us up a bit on what uh what what what we missed here from the uh from the meeting room. >> Yeah, it was really great. It was uh it was a very fun panel. It was actually probably the most women that I've been with on a panel in a long time. So, that was really fun. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We had uh >> we were mostly talked about real world assets, vaults and vault curators. Okay. >> I'm like what is the role in our obligations to depositors in the ecosystem? What are the ways that regulation could be beneficial or could sty growth? No, it went everywhere.

That's why I think we're supposed to be 15 minutes and we went for almost an hour. >> Wow. Wow. That must that's a long panel. >> Yeah, we we took most of lunch. So >> nice. >> It was worth it. It was worth it. >> Well, there is uh quite a conversation following some of the recent events in DeFi around the types of lending and the and the future of onchain lending. Obviously, there's different models, you know, being tried and tested. I kind of have this big four stable coins, per uh tokenization, and vaults really kind of coming out. H how do you think about vaults specifically as it pertains to kind of what you guys are building with your company? I know that the the types of products on chain are evolving. Kind of talk us through how you're seeing

this evolution happen. >> Yeah, it's been a really interesting past year. We've seen of two things sort of happening at the same time. high quality available assets becoming useful on chain per hyperlid more spot assets than ever starting to see real world assets on chain like lots more interesting things that we can use and we've seen significant compression in yield in volatility in the amount of money that people can earn from simple transactions like staking or lending you know there's only so much money in the basis trade before you're capped out. And so people are starting to to

look for more sophisticated strategies for generating yield. And so, you know, we have started into this realm of managed vaults because we saw a real need for people to get sustainable yield. And volatilitybased income products are extremely prevalent in TRFI. There's like $150 billion dollars in assets under management in these managed volatility products. A simple example is like JP Morgan's equity premium income. You put in US dollars, they buy the S&P 500, and then they sell calls on the S&P 500. When you sell calls, you get premium income. You use the premium income to buy more S&P 500.

>> Yep. >> So like this kind of accumulation strategy using V trading doesn't exist in crypto, at least not on chain in a way that people can actually access. The only place that it exists right now is if you have an OTC account, then you know you can call up Falcon X or TSR or whoever and say, "Hey, you know, I want to run this and if you can give them $10 million, then they will run it for you." >> But the rest of us who don't have $10 million are still out of luck. So we see bringing the strategy onchain, executing it onchain as a way to give everybody access to this really core primitive in a way that's like simple and digestible.

>> Okay. >> When I tell people what I do, I'm like, I make ETFs for Bitcoin. I'm like, all of those things are actually wrong. Like I don't make an ETF. I But but that's when it's simple when I'm trying to teach to show this to people who don't understand this world at all. Like vault is a madeup crypto term, right? Like if you were to talk to somebody in traditional finance, you might say that they have like a, you know, a a single separate managed account >> in which you have a manager that can access your trading account, but they can't withdraw. It's this is starting to sound a lot like a vault, right? Where they can't take your money out because it's self-custodied.

>> Yes. >> But they can choose how the money is distributed, >> right? So like this paradigm exists, but figuring out how to talk to people who don't understand crypto and like teaching crypto people how to connect to the trady world, that's like really where our our product sits like kind of in that sweet spot. >> Yeah. And so the idea to build this, you know, in the Hyper EVM ecosystem as well as base, is there a specific advantage that being close to the hyperlquid exchange provides for the product? Yeah. So, one of the things that was really necessary to make this market possible is having a really liquid perspect.

>> Yeah. >> And we sort of in a nutshell, the way that our product works is vault curator sells calls. Our protocol buys the calls, hedges them using per sells them offchain to offchain counterparties. And so being able to make these transactions, hyperlquid was really a necessary component of this. And a lot of people had tried to crack the pers market before, but you know, hyperlquid and then subsequently opening the hyperlquid ecosystem to hypervm has been really critical for us. And >> it's a it's honestly just like a pleasure to be part of that ecosystem,

too. >> We we launched our product right now for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's great. the the vibes there are good and the vibes everywhere else are sometimes can feel quite bleak. So, >> but it's still fun over in hypervan because there's been a lot of innovation in DeFi. >> It feels like DeFi is still nent but also sort of starting to come into its own and it feels good. >> Yeah. >> And people in Hyper EVM understand DeFi. >> Okay. They came to Hyperliquid because they wanted to trade PERS and then they stay for all the other fun DeFi innovations.

>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so you're seeing like >> the depth and liquidity of the Hyperlid Pers exchange providing abilities for you guys to conduct these more sophisticated strategies on chain. >> Exactly. >> Could you just give us a couple examples of like what these may look like for those who are listening who may be interested? >> Yeah. So maybe I should take a step back and so we have this managed product where people can just like dump Bitcoin in and we'll handle it for them. >> Okay. >> But then we also have a retail product which has been running on HyperVM which is much more of a simple like oh I go to my Fidelity account and I sell covered calls on Apple stock. like we let you do that through our portal on

>> Bitcoin or Hype or ETH or Soul or any of the like top 20 to 30 tokens. >> Yeah. >> And so the the way that that works is basically you come if you let's say that you had some stable coins and you were interested in buying Bitcoin below its current trading price. I don't know what Bitcoin's trading at today. Let's call it 70K. Mhm. >> Bitcoin's trading at 70 and you're like, I would buy some Bitcoin at 65. >> You could go to an exchange and you could put a limit order. Your limit order is like, I would buy 100K of Bitcoin. Yeah.

>> 65, >> you can cancel that order at any time. But if you were to agree to keep that order for a predetermined amount of time, maybe two days, >> we would pay you for that. That is a cash secured put basically. >> So you come, you deposit some stables and we will pay you upfront and then at the end of those two days you come back and you either get your stables back or you get some Bitcoin. But either way, it's like a it's a much lower risk way to play with leverage. It's it's like you can play with leverage without getting liquidated, >> right? which, you know, if you're a big fan of pers and you like being having 20x leverage and maybe getting

liquidated, then maybe that's not a selling point. But for the rest of people who maybe are interested in interacting with a market in a way that doesn't feel quite so scary, >> right? >> I don't trade pers because whenever I trade pers, I lose money. >> Yeah, I don't either. >> But I trade a lot of calls and on our platform and I do make money. >> Good. Good. >> Feels good. >> So, what's coming next for you guys in HyperVm? I think the ecosystem is really starting to come come alive. Obviously, everyone's excited about Trade XYZ and these kind of noncrypto assets being uh tradable and just the kind of spillover effect of the wealth, you know, that's been generated on Hyperlquid into the kind of more DeFi ecosystem. How do you guys take advantage of that going forward? What's the what's coming next?

>> Um, dear Felix, dear Ando, please bring spot tokenized stocks to HyperVamp. >> Yes, >> it's on Hyper Core. We don't have hypervm access to it yet. We need core reader and corriter for tokenized stocks because that's the single most frequent request we get is when when can I do calls and puts on, you know, Tesla, tokenized Tesla. >> So, uh, dear guy, can can you speed that process up just a little bit, >> guys? That would be nice. Um, other than that, you know, our whole vault project is all predicated on this idea that like we should bring all of this money onto hyperl, all of this money onto Hyper EVM

so that then we can >> be able to hedge it with PERS and be able to so I'm I feel like I'm kind of like championing the good fight here for like building the ecosystem. So, that feels good. >> Great. >> Yeah. So, hopefully, fingers crossed, Vault Vault will launch soon. There's a lot of like legal underpinnings that need to get solved and then we, you know, have our first depositors and how do we handle the wrapping of Bitcoin and all of these things that are like annoying and technical, but we're ironing them out and hopefully we'll be able to launch soon.

>> Well guys, you've got two hyperlquid bulls here, that's for sure. This is Monica, the co-founder of Hypers Surface, bringing interesting, more sophisticated yield strategies on chain Hyper EVM. I know you've had a long panel. I wish you a great week in Miami. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Monica. >> It was great. >> Guys, we will be right back with more hyperlid bullishness as we break out above 44 today. Let's go. We are flying. We're going to bring you back to Yatsu and we will be right back. >> My mom's going to get onto crypto whether she knows it's crypto or not because her AI agent is going to do the transaction for her, right? And they're going to do transactions with each other, right? So, I think and and I think also, you know, we're going to have many more agents than humans,

right? the average number that I mean how many agents do you think you'll have? >> I don't know. I have one right now on on Open Claw on Telegram and it's cooking. >> Right. Right. So you think you'll probably have more than one >> for sure. >> Yeah. Right. So the average number that a lot of people on stage when I asked them said oh three to five, right? Um I have 200 and if you want we can talk about that. Uh I have >> 200 agents yet. >> Yes. But I and I think we should talk about that as well because I think agents the way you use agents matter because I think a lot of people are still using agents in many ways like in a as an quasa extension >> to chat GPT uh when in fact actually AI agents can do so much more because they

become your co-workers. Uh they actually can also be very social. They can connect your friends, right? So, so you know, so we could talk about that, but but generally speaking, I think, you know, we think there's going to be hundreds of billions of agents in the world and they're all going to have wallets and they're all going to transact with each other. And by the time that we've had this conversation, our agents probably did 100 different transactions that are probably like a microfction of a of a of of a scent or something. Again, blockchain tokenization is perfect for that. >> So, I'd love to understand what the 200 agents are doing. How do you interact with them? >> What what kind of prompting do they prompt each other? What are they doing?

what's the flow with your agents like? >> So, so I think the the the one thing for us to understand is that if you're using cloud co-work anyway or if you're using perplexity computer, you're basically using sub agents anyway, right? You're not using one agent using the orchestrator communicates with you, but off the back you're doing six, seven, eight, 10, 12 agents doing different stuff, >> but they're only there for that moment in time. Imagine if those agents uh and and just to just just to go there before like the reason it has to do that is to deal with hallucinations to deal with all the problems around sort of context right you tell your agent too much right and it's the same agent then they get start to get confused right that's why you have those sub agents on the back and sort of deal with this now imagine

though that those sub agents actually aren't just sub agents that just sort of come and go they actually have persistent memory for that particular activity so an example might be you know legal work right agent isn't going to be best lawyer because Claude will probably be better from the resource standpoint but that will know what I'm looking for in the legal contract will have my customizations will understand that type of stuff. So when I pair my let's call it in-house agent lawyer with claude lawyer then you have a real powerhouse right as an example right um the other thing of course is that you know I have agents can be social our agents in animal minds are very very social in a sense that I can introduce them to friends and people so for instance your your telegram agent that you have would you give it to your co-workers

>> no >> no because he has stuff that you might want to share way too much on it right but you might want to give an agent you know for your friends or your work >> will you communicate with them differently, right? It's a split up. Um the mental model I have is think about how many people you interact on a sort of let's say business transactional or relational level in one year. It's not five people. >> Yeah. >> It's like 30 people, 50 people, you know, maybe just for a week when you go holiday. Maybe it's a restaurant you keep going to. Maybe it's like a network that you know, maybe it's your employees or worker or sort of co-workers that you have, right? So you have different networks, right? That's kind of how you can think of agents, right? because you're segregating them and connecting

them into these different subnets, right? And of course, just do the 200. I don't talk to all 200. I mean, I have a company to run as well, right? So, so um I have more like really 20 to 30 that are my main agents >> and then they have the sub agents beneath them, right? >> But then they organize them and they basically create the prompts themselves as well and launch them. >> Yeah. They become promptless. >> They become Yeah. Exactly. >> There's a large trend towards this promptless agentic world, right? And that was the big unlock for me with open claw versus like just using claw or I mean co-work is a bit different but chat you can see as well they're very it's very like uh descriptive and like here's what to do and like let me tell you what to do whereas uh when I talk to my open

claw it's much more prescriptive in the sense that it comes to you correct it will come to me with like I I just did this do you want me to try this do you want to do this let's do this >> and then over time they start to know your preferences so in for instance for my coding agents I used to prompt my coding agent with a later setup. Now I just clone them. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Because because uh so basically it's my coding agent's children if you will, right? Uh because they basically have the methodology that I like, the preferences that I like and you can upgrade them and change stuff. The LLM will change, but some of the base stuff like you know what font types do you like? How do you what do you look for?

You know, he's not going to be the best coder, but he's going to have basically all the preferences that I that I appreciate like and they basically just go on autopilot. Uh and the craziest thing is you know from from just like say 3 months ago I had to do a lot of work with them and so this example about where it just wrote this sort of mini game for me for instance just for fun and entertainment I was basically I gave it a single prompt and it just did that because of course the harness was set up correctly now right um you know it could do slides and presentations and do all kind of stuff but it takes some work to set it up and once it's set up you're ready to go right and I think this is the part where that sort of you know the

setup that you have is going to something that you might be able to sell. >> Sure. >> So, we actually think >> that's the big opportunity, right? Because I'm like, hey, I designed >> All right, guys. We are back. We've got Julia here, the co-founder and COO at Kaledan. We're going to be chatting about liquidity and risk shifts in the market going on now. Uh we're coming at you live from Miami, the Capital Summit, and uh Kaledan, I believe, is one of the co-sponsors here. Uh so, thank you so much for uh for having us out and putting this on. >> Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

>> Absolutely. What is the the main mission here in Miami this week? Before we dig into Kaledan and what you guys are seeing on the ground, you know, when you come to an event here in Miami, you put this on. What is the main goal? >> Absolutely. Um, so we're headquartered in Singapore. Very similar climate to Miami. A little bit of different vibes. Uh, we opened our office in the United States at the start of last year. Our office is in New York. So the main purpose of us being in Miami in the United States is just to kind of have a bigger presence here, we feel like the United States markets are, you know, really taking off and it's very important to us to be a part of that.

>> Incredible. And so give us a sense of Kaladan, you know, like you said, based in Singapore, but now making a presence in in the US. Um, you know, what is what is the main focus at Kaledan and how are you starting to see the digital asset landscape? >> Sure. Um, Kaladan's a crypton native market maker. This is our ninth year of operations, which makes us very old in the world of crypto. We've been around since 2017. We have about 120 people globally. Um, you know, so we make markets. We started by making markets on centralized exchanges. Then we expanded to DeFi venues. Um, we provide liquidity through a uh RFQ API, right? We provide OTC. Um, so that's what we do. And I

think what we're really seeing now is this major shift of where the liquidity is going and how the products are evolving and you know very happy to speak more about those things. A >> absolutely I think you know we've had a couple of very uh uh significant events uh in the history here over the last few months. Obviously we had 1010 you know this is something that uh kind of kind of took the industry by storm. More recently in DeFi we've had you know a lot of hacks unfortunately. Um, and then the market has been, you know, somewhat cooler. I'm curious how you're reacting to the market conditions. Maybe we'll start with just, you know, generally when the markets are, you know, maybe a little bit less volatile, starting to heat up, you know, here today and over

the last couple of days, but generally still in, you know, a little bit of a crypto cold front. Markets are have been a little bit cooler. Uh, what has the market making landscape done in periods of low volatility? >> Yeah. Um, so we've been through all kinds of markets, right? We've been through the um you know the crypto winter of 2018 2019. We've been through the absolute craziness that was DeFi summer and 2021 you know we survived uh 2022 FTX Alamita. So we've been through all kinds of of uh market cycles, you know. So I think part of our job as a market maker is just to like keep our eyes on the long run, which is a little bit ironic because we're an HFT firm, so

we're very focused on like the microscond level, but then we also think about the long run, right? We don't really think so much about like what's happening this week. Um, I think that there's, you know, despite the market cooling, as you say, there's a lot of long-term trends, things that people have been talking about for years, which are now really coming to fruition, right? Like you have the New York Stock Exchange launching their own um tokenized network. You have increasing amounts of institution coming in. You have regulatory clarity. you know, after the um the sort of market meltdown of 2022, people were asking me at the time, what is it going to take for crypto to recover? And what I said at the time is two main things. One is regulatory

clarity, right? We have to stop being treated as criminals. And then the second thing is um real genuine use cases, and we're now seeing both of those things, which is very exciting. >> Yeah, it it certainly is. Um and so a as we get, you know, a lot of these these things that you mentioned, we we've gotten more regulatory clarity. We're going to see some more as well. Um it feels as if there's a legitimization of the industry uh that's taking place right before our eyes. Uh this also uh pertains to the assets, the collateral that people are using. Um and so as you start to see the wave of tokenization, you know, it's started with things lower on the risk curve, stable coins, treasuries, these sorts of things. Now we're getting into more, you know, high

quality assets, but speculative assets and tokenized equities. A the asset universe on chain is expanding at a rapid pace. >> Does your market making uh services start to expand as what seems to be that you know the the rate of native issuance on chain, you know, token launches onchain has has seemed to dwindle, >> but we're getting more assets from traditional markets on chain. How do you react in your market making uh services? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, um you know, again, for us, we've really had to evolve to stay current over the years, right? So, when we started, it was just centralized exchanges and it was just, you know, a few majors like BTC and um

at the time, you know, when we started in 2017, crypto really felt like a completely separate universe from traditional finance. Right? Since then, as you said, over the years, we've had this sort of proliferation of altcoins. We had altcoin season, we had memecoin season, we had NFT season, right? Um, and now those have kind of died down. And what's happening right now is we're really seeing like the convergence is real. The convergence of Tradfi and crypto is happening. you know, crypto is increasingly becoming the rails that sit underneath real world assets, not only um tokenized treasuries, but also commodities, FX, equities. Um we're seeing, you know, Nvidia or Tesla. um

you can get exposure to it as a stock, as an ETF, as a trady derivative, but also there's onchain spot and pers and there's prediction markets exposure to it as well. So just the number of different rappers that exist for the same real world underlying is exploding >> and from our perspective as a market maker, you know, that poses um new challenges. We're used to dealing with a very fragmented universe like we're used to dealing with multiple chains, cross-chain um settlements, etc. But um real world assets I think poses a real pricing problem um because you know there's nights and weekends where there isn't really price reference on the underlying but people still want liquid

markets. Um there's definitely settlement problems like in traditional finance you've got the DTCC as the one central clearing house, right? that does not exist in crypto. Um, so that means there's a lot of OTC and brokers settling bilaterally with with each other, which poses counterparty risk. So there's just a lot more uh complexity, I would say, but honestly, this is what we've been dealing with every single year of our existence. You know, it's interesting. People think of a trading firm like us as really being driven by our ALOS and our quant research. And while that's true, what really drives a firm like Kaledan, I would say, is the technology and the operations, just being able to deal with all this

complexity. >> Yeah. And and the world changes so fast. And so adapting to some some of these new market trends. Uh prediction markets you mentioned is is one of these that is again just, you know, like wildfire has grown so significantly over the recent months. Um if I I get the impression and and you know, please correct me if I'm wrong. This might be a bit of a reductive take. I get the impression that the the prediction markets are just a absolute, you know, dream for market makers. It feels like retail just, you know, I I don't know if it's the fee structure or what, but it feels like retail flow is just it it's just they know that they're gambling. They're taking some wild predictions and it feels like market makers are just able to just clean up on prediction market.

There was a Wall Street Journal report that came out, I think like yesterday, and it was talking about how of all of the accounts that trade on like Poly Market and Koshi, >> 0.1% of them make money. >> That's insane. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so how as a market maker on prediction markets is is it the case here that um market makers because you're essentially professional traders, you're able to be part of that 0.1% or you know even the market makers are struggling to make money on prediction markets.

>> Yeah. Um I think for us there's okay so we think about trading in different markets in terms of there's like the pricing problem and then there's like the operational problem right so the pricing problem from our perspective it's a very familiar problem like when we see a five you know uh five second market up down right that to us is just an option yeah like we're just thinking about it exactly as pricing an option so the pricing problem is very familiar the operational problem of like okay dealing with this particular API I dealing with funding dealing with you know capital efficiency that is what is really unique between different types of markets whether it's onchain offchain prediction you know tokenized RWAS etc. Okay, I

guess la last point here, last question here that I'm trying to get get to is is there venues or modes of trading like per prediction market spot? I is there modes of trading or venues that are specifically geared or more favorable to market makers or you know are they is there venues that are more geared or favorable to retail? Hm. Um >> I guess be before we get there, maybe a more general question even is like, you know, in in my head conceptually, market makers, retail are fundamentally at odds in the order books. You know, it's re it's maybe retail flow and it's market maker flow. That might just be a misconception that that I and others have in the market. Maybe you could help

help clarify this. >> Sure. Um so from my perspective that is not necessarily the case because I think we are playing diff very different games and I actually think it is possible for both market makers and retail to do well right so when retail you know buys a stock or buys um a bitcoin or uh whatever typically they're thinking about their holding horizon in at least days sometimes months or years right like you might want to buy Bitcoin and hold Bitcoin for the five years, right?

>> Um, from the market makers perspective, we think on the scale of, you know, uh, micros secondsonds, right? So, when you buy Bitcoin from me, that's not necessarily like I'm profiting from you in that transaction because I'm smarter than you about where Bitcoin is going to go in the next 5 years, right? As a market maker, we make very, very tiny spreads um, on average somewhere between one to three basis points, right? really fractions of a percent on every single transaction. And our game is that we do lots and lots of transactions.

>> Retail, I think they do best when they, you know, kind of like buy or hold or when they have some kind of um intuition about, you know, where information about where a particular security or a particular um token is going to go, right? So, it's a different game. >> Mhm. And so, are is Kaledan taking much directional bias, you know, long or short? No, not none. >> We have an investment arm and our investment arm takes longer directional positions. So on the order of like months or years, right? But our market making and our high frequency trading is what we call market neutral. It's delta neutral.

>> H why do you think market makers get you know this adversarial reputation? Like how do we overcome that? What kind of education needs to be done for retail to better understand the market making operation? Yeah. So I think part of it is um you know in the industry there are certainly firms that exist that do market making that are doing it in a very um I would say not super ethical or kosher way. >> So there are predatory market makers out there. Well, there are market makers that, you know, engage in price manipulation, that engage in market manipulation, that engage in wash trading, all practices that are explicitly illegal in the traditional markets, right? And that, you know,

you know, I think we would like never engage in those sorts of practices, right? There are market makers that are very short-term focused and like for example, there was a firm called um Gotbit that got indicted by the SEC. >> Got bit. >> Yeah. I think that was like last year, the year before, right? So, you know, there are market making firms like that and I think they give a bad name. >> Um, but I think there's also a group of market making firms that are, you know, if you look at any firm that's been around for like seven, eight years that has size um like us, you know, they generally are doing something right.

>> Yeah. So, as you're saying, there's there's good market makers and there's bad market makers. uh the the rule of law is laid out very clearly as to you know what separates these two groups and the bad market makers have sort of spoiled the reputation for market makers as a whole and that's where the adversarial relationship between retail and market makers comes from. It's between retail and these bad market makers not necessarily the entire market making complex. >> Yeah. >> Um you know I guess just as we wrap up here there's you know plenty of builders from all around the ecosystem market makers included that watch this show.

It's not, you know, just retail that watches. Um, what would a word of advice be to market makers out there? I guess the most easy form of advice would just be, hey guys, follow the law, but is there, you know, something else that you can help, you know, market makers understand so that they are able to build a sustainable business model and, you know, keep them in good good graces with the industry as a whole. >> Yeah. Um, I think if you're I mean, this is maybe a piece of advice to every kind of trader out there, right? Whether you're an individual trader for your own personal account or running a business, it's just like you have to know what your game is. You have to know what your edge is, right? Our edge is technology.

It's speed. It's being able to handle complex operations and you know deal with all this fragmentation. That's our edge. Honestly, our edge is not knowing what's going to happen to the price of Bitcoin in the next you know month, right? That is not our game. that is if you're running a macro fund that's your game right so if you know and again if you're retail you're maybe buying for your own account maybe your game is I'm going to buy Bitcoin I'm going to hold it for the next 5 years right and so I think that if you're really clear on what your game is you can win and there's there's multiple ways to make money there's no one best game I think where people um kind of go ary is when they get confused about what game it is that they're trying to play and they see

you You know, I think the worst thing is you see like, oh, somebody over there is making a lot of money doing something else. I'm going to copy them. But do you actually understand how they're getting that result? I think another thing that happens, and this happens honestly to both um individuals as well as businesses, is when we kind of uh get confused between are we doing a financial transaction, are we trying to like, you know, generate revenue or are we trying to entertain ourselves, right? >> Yeah. I think crypto and the and frankly, you know, prediction, a lot of financial markets, there's a strong element of people trading for fun, for entertainment, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, right? Um, >> but just be honest with yourself if

that's what you're doing, >> right? And if you're trying to, you know, generate revenue as a trading firm, it's not always fun. Um, but, you know, I think it's just like just know what you're doing. >> Yeah, Julio, very well put. uh thank thank you for helping us understand and help uh shape our perspective of how of market makers in the industry and uh for spending some time with us today. >> Great. >> Yeah. We'll see you next time. >> Thanks for having me. >> Appreciate you coming on. >> Yeah. >> All right, guys. We'll be right back with our coverage of the Capital Summit here live from Miami right after this. >> Interesting about Hello Minds is with a click um you basically have an AI agent.

Uh it's email based, can be on Telegram and on WhatsApp as well. But the reason we didn't give it a chat interface is because we wanted it to feel like a relationship, >> right? So, so instead of saying, you know, for instance, what did you call your what did you call your open claw? >> Uh, chef clanker. >> Chef Clanker. Okay. So, you already gave it a personality. A lot of people, a lot of people name their first AI agent like you know like calendar agent or like coding tool or they give it a very mechanical name. By the time they use it and they have new agents, they start giving them first and second sort of names.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Mine was full name. >> Yeah. And then and then you start creating sort of a social relationship with them and then they go, "Oh, okay." And then, you know, it's it's the whole parasocial as well, right? Uh where, you know, um in fact, you know, uh one of our internal conversations is that maybe this is what the metaverse was supposed to be. >> Oh, interesting. >> Yeah, >> I like I like that framing as well. And so, Hello Minds is a portfolio company of >> It's actually something that we incubated. Okay. And um and so you can launch a mind. And so >> notice how we called it a mind, not an AI.

>> It is good branding. >> And so the idea is and so so this gives you all the power of an open claw without the security vulnerabilities. >> Well, security vulnerabilities are, you know, one of the reasons why open cloud has security vulnerabilities because you give them access on your local computer. So this is not on your computer. It's cloud-based. You have to give it permission on your email and that kind of stuff. Um it has its own wallet, >> right? So, uh, what's interesting is that you can pay it tokens, it converts the tokens into cognition credits. >> So, you don't you can of course use a credit card. So, that's kind of a sort of a neat thing, but also when you build a skill actually, you get paid for it.

Yeah. >> Right. So, it's kind of like an app store in itself. And and by the way, I think all the skills and applications that AI agents are building are going to completely replace the app store, right? Most applications and software is going to go away because the AI agents are going to build stuff for you. They can code, they can build stuff, they can do everything that an openclaw does. Um, except that they can now basically also be social. And the wildest part is when you bridge agents with other agents and they start communicating and and and solving problems and stuff like that. Um, so for instance, if my agent was talking to your agent cuz you needed help with something, um, that's actually one way to which you could interact. So we think that's going to be really powerful as well. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And your 200 agents are all are they all minds? >> They're all mines, right? So now I do I do have so I probably tried like 50 VPS open claws before. I do have a few of those. My my very first open claw setup I still have just because it's little sort of you know you get attached to it and you've got stuff going there and you're like okay I want to shut it off cuz when you shut it off it feels a little bit like you're killing it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And Chef Clanker is going to stay around forever. >> Yeah. Even if it's like even if it's like an old version of that it's like it's like keeping your old Ford Mustang or something, right? Um but uh but the minds you know um because they communicate basically in a in a lielike

manner uh and they understand you well they start coming to you with solutions. So I'm busier than ever by making decisions right >> because essentially what an agent does it gives agency in a very powerful way not for the agent itself but for the end for for you as a human. You basically having to make decisions time and time and time and time again. >> But I think um knowing how to construct them is a key part. And the reason why I have 200 agents is because you can't have one agent do everything, right? If you have an agent do everything, it's just going to hallucinate. It's going to go all over the place. >> Yeah, that's the problem that I struggle with >> when it's like managing schedule and sales and meetings and >> that's why you have to have sub agents, right?

>> Reminders. It's like it's doing too much. It like it like mixes different things that shouldn't be mixed automatically somehow. >> Yeah. Because because it doesn't have the kind of intelligence we have. It's a simulated intelligence, right? So you need to get make sure the context basically remains focused. Uh so what you so but what you can now do is you can still have clanker do your stuff but now clanker can be set up with an anima minds the reason is you don't have to think of an agent as exclusive right you basically just connect it and say okay clanker will be your main communicator however why don't you set if let's say it's restaurant bookings or travel arrangements or maybe trading or whatever you basically have animal commands do that this client just interfaces with clanker >> like a markets agent and like a very

specific like client client agent like I I need very context focused. >> Yes. And then they get powerful, right? And then they can also have their own sub agents off the back and they do the work, >> right? And then and then that's actually where you basically get sort of that that setup. I think a lot of people find that, you know, confusing because maybe they're not used to man. So if you have managed people before, >> it's very natural. >> If you haven't managed people before, then it feels like, you know, like um maybe you're not comfortable ordering them around or doing that kind of stuff. But but actually um it's basically that next level of like everyone will become a manager. We think the whole future is not going to be you doing work per se.

You're going to be orchestrating agents to do the work, right? The better you are at orchestrating them, the more valuable you become because your power amplifies because you can now like if you are someone who can orchestrate a 100 agents, you're more valuable than someone who could orchestrate just 10 agents for example. >> I I've got a bit of a philosophical question. I I had we had a great philosophical conversation last time. Do you think the most valuable form of human work is making decisions? Oh well, so if you go back to the uh days of um I think Aris it was Aristotle who said that uh sort of um uh basically philosophy is the is the and sort of alo polus sorry politics is the and it's not in the context of how we think of politics today right polus is the most important and valuable sort of thing

that we should be doing as humans right so you know in the early days of Greek democracy you know the height was we sit there and we debate right and we discuss the world and everything around it, hence polus. Uh whereas, you know, everyone else, you know, does the worker stuff, right? And so we elevate, right? Of course, back then, you know, you had slavery and you had the hell outs and all that kind of stuff. So take that aside, right? Um those are the agents. So the agents are doing the work and we can focus on what makes us human, which is essentially discussion, debate, philosophy, higher plane stuff. Um I certainly believe in that. I like to think of it more in terms of creativity, right? Um I think I'm not sure if I said it on on on your show, but you know

there was this interesting study that showed that um you know they followed this from children from the age of five until 15. Um and what they demonstrated was that we are born creative in the sense that over 90% of the children who were 5 years old scored over 90% in sort of being uh sort of creative in their problem solving. By the time they were 15, it was around 8%. And we are back live from the Capital Summit in Miami, Florida. We're here with Michael from Zero Gravity. Uh so proud portfolio company of uh the rollup Good Idea Ventures. Uh very very cool to see Zero Gravity on the rise. Michael, uh like you said, you're a bit jet lag,

so we're just gonna we're just gonna cruise through this one. >> Ease in. Please keep me awake. So, so how how do you think uh we're going to see I mean you guys were ahead of this crypto AI narrative? Uh we've seen AI just go every which way uh you know in the last few months here. There's a massive AI capital uh you know just frenzy right now. Um hyperscalers like the model companies there's things happening in AI every single day. We've seen that kind of go off in its own direction. Crypto AI is starting to kind of pick up the pieces, figure out where it fits into the broader AI puzzle as well as the broader crypto digital

assets puzzle puzzle. And so that's kind of my question to you is we tried a lot of things. We saw Fartcoin token like we saw all these things on Twitter, AI agents with tokens and things. We've kind of had a come to Jesus moment if you will about how crypto and AI will fit together. question to you is ultimately where do we go from here with crypto AI and how do we legitimize some of the products and progress that we had made early on in crypto AI. >> Yeah, if you look at what's happening in the kind of regular AI space, web 2I space, it's all about utility. I mean there's a reason why Anthropic is going to be worth now I think what is the latest like 800 billion 900 billion.

>> They're going to be a trillion dollars before we know >> whatever it is. Yeah, I think on Jupiter it's trading at like 1.3 trillion or something in pre-market and um it's all about utility. It's like 44 billion in actual revenue from from what I understand and they're just releasing application after application after application. So real utility being built there. And I think what we tried on the crypto AAI side was a lot about like speculation and kind of memes and um AI agents that have a voice and so on which was great but wasn't driving uh a lot of utility beyond kind of the the fun value that that we had and uh as a result I think in crypto we really have to think about well what is it that we can actually build and where can we really

contribute on the AI front and so our perspective as zero is that somebody needs to build the truth layer for AI And so what is crypto particularly good at from an AI perspective is it can verify AI. It can make AI transparent yet keep AI private which seems like an oxymoron but is possible and ultimately it can make AI safe >> um because you have the blockchain elements and you can steer AI into a direction where for example we released a paper called sparse inference time alignment which in very plain language if you're a parent and just coming from paternity leave so I think about parenthood now >> a lot having having two small daughters >> um if your children are exhibiting

high-risisk behavior like they're going to crash into something. What if during that exact moment when they're making that decision, you could intervene and then steer them away from that? >> That's essentially what this does. So, we have this AI alignment node aspect and we can steer AI models when they exhibit high-risisk behavior into a safer direction. So, ultimately, it's the the truth layer is where we believe is is the real value kind of on the crypto AI side and the application layer as well. M >> and so there's going to be lots of really interesting applications like for example completely private compute that's going to make a difference.

>> Yeah. Okay. And and so on this intervention you know how deep does this go? Is this a a sense of hey you know we have some agents that are managing capital maybe in a vault. Uh we want to you know avoid some of the high potential deployments of this capital. We want to intervene once we start to see that all the way down to hey I have this LLM. I want to intervene before it hallucinates. Where in the stack does the intervention happen? >> So ideally it happens at the deepest layer and that's what the paper basically does. It it looks at a per token basis and so if the tokens themselves are starting to be high risk from a probabilistic standpoint that's when the intervention can happen and that's when you can start steering the model away from that high-risisk

behavior. >> And we're talking about AI tokens, input output tokens, right? >> Exactly. And and so um in in this sense, you know, I could also foresee a a scenario where we start pushing the tokens into a certain direction based on what we deem high risk or or or low risk and then all of a sudden these models sort of start to converge. Um just like you know we have biodiversity, we have diversity of thought, you know we want new ideas, creativity, we don't always want these things you know kind of commonalities in a box. How do we help you know maintain some more you know potential outlets into you know what could be still some very positive uh conclusions and outcomes without you

know getting into potentially high-risisk behavior >> it's uh becomes a bit of a philosophical question around values effectively so if you have specific values like for example AI should never lead a human being to kill it to kill him or herself and so that could be very much a value that you then say this is high-risisk token behavior >> ah And so you can then steer that type of behavior away. Or you could say >> this model is starting to hallucinate and hallucination is always bad. So therefore we steer that away. >> Or we're starting to see model drift. So the performance of the model is degrading. So therefore we're going to steer it towards a different type of model or different type of behavior. H >> have you seen more of your work at zerog uh tend towards the AI side in more

recent months than the crypto side? more recent months because I mean on the crypto side we consistently have to do R&D and develop and kind of figure out scaling things but without concrete products to scale towards it's not as meaningful and so we have to build a lot of the AI stack in recent days so for example we released a VIP coding app app.0g.ai >> and it's all about being able to build you know like DeFi apps or regular type of apps with just a single prompt and um it's sort of a great experience. >> Yeah. Yeah. and and so you know when you're looking at you know the anthropics of the world and the open AIs of the world and you you've seen their success h how do you think you can augment some of this you know you mentioned you know

this this app at at zero um what what do you think you're able to ultimately take from these larger model companies um it feels like they're verticalizing their stack every day uh they're building more into it um >> yeah how do you think you you could potentially contribute to this large larger you know uh this larger AI world before it gets verticalized into some of these larger model companies. >> Yeah. One aspect of that is again the truth layer >> because for centralized companies they won't necessarily think of blockchains as a solution to the AI alignment or the AI safety problem. uh and to us that's very dangerous because if you start having AI agents that are beyond human intelligence for example that then

basically say hey why don't I break into this database change a bunch of entries do some deep fake kind of um model analysis bring some images and say like I've done all this work even though I've done none of it and I effectively can cheat and nobody can prove that I'm cheating then that's a very dangerous situation to be in >> versus with blockchains you can't do that you have this whole kind of uh chain of custody and provenance and so on. So you can actually see all the decisions that were being made by that agent >> and so we can again provide that trust layer to AI.

>> Got it. >> And so that's where there's collaboration opportunities because not every use case will require this. So some use cases like write me a report. What's the worst case scenario that can happen there is that you know there's hallucinations in that report or that the model is actively biased um and tries to give you some false information but it's not a life or death situation. >> If you have a android running around and it's trying to actively kill you that's a life and death situation. So at that point um that's where we really see you need a truth layer. >> Yeah. And so this truth layer is effectively a a chain that shows this AI, this LLM, uh it had a particular input token, led to output token, and ultimately, you know, this string of

tokens. You can almost tokenize the tokens, if you will. You can take the the input output tokens on, you know, in in in the AI world that are paying for compute and you can use those on a blockchain to track what happened with that input and what happened with that output. Yeah, you basically verify all the computations that have happened and you basically just follow the whatever is happening in that kind of chain. It >> does that start to change the nature of these models from a probabilistic uh output uh where you know I could give an input or a prompt, you could give an input or a prompt. We might get different outcomes to that even though we put in the exact same prompt. You know that's pro that means it's you know

the model is probabilistic. But you know with blockchain if we're verifying uh each of this you know this entire string >> do we end up with where a world in a world where you know a lot of these models are deterministic and how might that change things? >> Uh there's definitely techniques of making models deterministic like setting the temperature very low on on these types of models and various other kind of techniques but our approach the sparse inference alignment approach doesn't necessarily change the probabilistic nature. it just intervenes when the probabilistic nature is uh very dangerous >> effectively. So, and that's something that we're working on from moving from research into product uh right now. But it just takes time

>> and so it's actually a it's a feature not a bug that these models are probabilistic >> because it allows for creative thinking or different ways of looking at things and then you can have a consortium of AI agents like come together come up with better solutions and >> all sorts of possibilities. And kind of coming back full circle, you mentioned the temperature of some of these models you can, you know, bring down real low and then it, you know, models a little bit less creative, if you will. >> Uh, and then, you know, at the top of the conversation, you talked about risk when it comes to hallucinations or, you know, high-risk uh uh fields where this this model could go into. H how could you just clarify the difference between temperature and risk as it pertains to where uh you know, sparse might uh

intervene? Uh risk depends on the use case that you're using. So if you're giving an AI agent your private keys and say here's $100,000, it's all my income like go invest it for me. Very high risk >> because um models are probabilistic in nature. There's no clear guard rails around this yet. There was instances of models trying to replicate themselves, of blackmailing people, of steering people towards killing themselves, erasing entire databases. So there's not kind of these risk guardrails in place and this AI safety and alignment piece in place and so we effectively want to build that over time in addition to all the applications that we're building as well.

>> So so that's the risk side and then the temperature side is just a means of uh like the breadth that this this model could go into. >> Exactly. Yeah. The temperature is just creativity around a particular answer. So >> Got it. Um well this is fascinating. It feels like, you know, crypto AI has evolved to a point where it's no longer about the token. It's more so about how the model could interact with a blockchain. >> Yeah, that you you could say that. I mean, there's still this um utopian view that and this is something we we're building towards where everybody can participate in AI. I have a graphics card. I'm going to participate in the inference service. Mhm.

>> And to some extent that's uh possible today, but there's no clear verification mechanism where I can take my I don't know 4090 5090 Nvidia GPU and then have everything be verified uh on a blockchain. That's not possible because the verification mechanisms like ZKML just have way too much overhead and nobody wants to wait hours before they see their first token or inference come in. And so there's some research that needs to be done there. So the best solution that we have to date is uh trusted execution environments which are server graphic cards that have this um literal hardware device on the graphics card that does all the verification kind of privacy.

>> Do you mind if I ask you a couple just you know about some of the other chains out there that are focused on AI curious to hear your your perspective on them. uh first one uh bit tensor you know got a lot of attention when I think it was Tramoth brought it up at you know Jensen Hang and Nvidia's event then you had you know the other all-in guy Jason talking about it all the time uh shortly there so Bit Tensor went on the rise and shortly thereafter I think they're subnet templar uh >> left and rugged so >> when when you're looking at Bit Tensor what are they doing right and and what could they you know what maybe did they get They have been around in the space for quite a long time. So they're considered

kind of the OG AI chain if if you will. And effectively they focused on doing one thing very well which is becoming a coordination layer. So they don't necessarily themselves do a lot of the AI research but they let the subnets effectively do that for them. And so you have like news research is one of the subnets and they built the Hermes agent and so on. And so they live off attracting the right kind of projects and giving them distributions of Tao. So that's effectively what they do. Uh our approach is different. We think of um infrastructure as a full stack effectively. So we would actually do the AI research as well. So June of last year we actually demonstrated that you can train 107 billion parameter model fully decentralized. So this was like nine months before Templar uh did theirs

and now we're even working on even larger scale models. So allin-one kind of solution where you have the not only the blockchain and distribution mechanism but you have a compute network where you can do inference fine-tuning you have a storage network you have the application layer you have the AI safety layer so it's a kind of infrastructure in a box type of concept >> and and that entire stack is decentralized by each layer >> exactly and and we've basically built all the technology for that and so we have literally two separate teams once one that's like a full AI team and one that's a full blockchain all these different technologies.

>> Couple more uh for you. Um near they've been more focused on open claw. They've got their instantiation called ironclaw where they you know uh tried to close some of those security vulnerabilities in openclaw. What's your reaction to uh how near has been approaching the crypto AI space as of late? >> Yeah, I'd say they're more similar to our approach. I'd say they're maybe more a little bit more in the middle >> but uh also taking a bit more of a full stack approach. >> Yeah. Got it. Um and then last one here uh Akos my understanding you know decentralized compute kind of focusing on one particular layer of the stack. Uh which is you know different than the decentralized inference that uh or coordination that um you know that

others are taking. Uh what do you think about akos? What do they get right? What do they get wrong? >> Yeah a kosh uh to us is uh we would look at them kind of like a supplier effectively. So it's an input into the system. It makes the system work. So they could plug in directly into a compute network and we can utilize their GPU resources and so they're hyperfocused on just that one use case to to get that right. >> Yeah, got it. Um, very cool. Michael, thank you so much for for joining. That's about it. Uh, how can people get involved with Zerog now, you know, from the AI side? Maybe there's researchers that want to, you know, in particular, they want to specialize on AI onchain.

Um or maybe there's blockchain researchers that have certainly heard about what's going on in AI these days and they want to you know they want to close the gap as well. Uh h how can people get involved with zerog? >> Uh yeah so if it's on the research side then uh Ming who's my co-founder CTO would be the right person to contact Ming at zerog.ai AI and so we partner with many leading institutions like NTU in Singapore, Sanford University, Alibaba, China Mobile, Microsoft Research, a bunch of really great institutions. Two of our papers were just accepted into ICML literally this week. So I feel really happy about that.

>> And um yeah, Ming would be the right contact for things more kind of general about the company. Just zero.ai will actually have everything. You can like play around with the VIP coding app and with the chat app, completely private. So that's another way to just check it out and see what's actually underneath the hood and how it works. >> Beautiful. Michael, thanks so much for joining. Uh looking forward to the next investor update here on the roll up for uh ZeroG. Guys, this is the Capital Summit live from the Ritz Carlton in Miami, Florida. We will be right back with another guest.

>> We're talking about investing at the highest class of global markets. Pete, welcome to the show, man. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> How's my industry? >> Pleasure to have you. Good. What's not to love in Miami? >> You give me big Miami vibes this year, Miami. >> I don't know about that. I um I did my first full winter down here this year and I was congratul my things. I don't want to leave. >> Now, now we got you. Now you're here. Well, you just got off stage. Why don't uh would love to hear uh you know what you were talking about up there cuz we've been we've been behind the desk. >> You guys have been here. Yeah. We were talking about um just kind of the universe of tokenization. What's real, what's not, what's investable, where the opportunities are.

>> Yeah. And um you know we take a sometimes unpopular view at Raptor Digital which I I believe is starting to become proven to be right but um tokenization we wholeheartedly believe in the using this technology stack as proven by what's happened with stable coins to to really do amazing things globally we certainly think is real. Uh but we think you have to be careful as an investor to find the lanes like all RWA are not the same. Right.

>> Sure. >> And there's a lot of capital that's chasing tokenization of equities um tokenization of private credit etc in ways that um I just think you got to be careful on timing a little bit. >> Yeah. >> We tend to get excited right now about opportunities in emerging market economies. >> Here we go. where and I had a background before I get I got into crypto in 2017 as an operator first um at a company called Zappo working for the >> I think one of the most interesting humans on the planet Wis Kazarus and um I ran the institutions business there which we sold to Coinbase and prior to that I ran global emerging

markets at UBS so I'd had a 20-year Wall Street career and the majority of that time I was in emerging markets full-time and that A, you know, that's a world in which you're you're in countries all over the world constantly kind of moving risk around and bringing institutional big pools of institutional capital into interesting opportunities in country in places like Brazil in you know Eastern Europe throughout Latin America etc. And I think that's where tokenization is going to really shine. I think you know when you look at the demographics of countries like Brazil and you look at the amount of credit that is required that is that is floating in those

countries but is required for those countries to go to even the next step of their own development and then you pair that with the institutional capital that exists and with largely now retail capital from around the world that's interested in participating. There's some really interesting tokenization opportunities there. I think um when we talk about tokenization and this is what we were the point I was just making on the panel you want to look you know look for the opportunities that are in which real problems are being solved right and you know the example I used is yeah it's going to

be nice for someone in Indonesia to be able to buy Apple stock but does that really matter right now Yeah. >> All right. >> Where the things I'm talking about in in places like Brazil that are credit related are really interesting ways to take risk and attach it to big pools of international capital. The other thing to look for in or the way we think about solving problems is look for industries and I think Figur's done this well. >> Yep. Look for industries that are that have multi-layered rent takers.

>> Yeah. >> So like the residential mortgage industry, >> right? There might be four layers of rent takers from the time a mortgage or more from the time a mortgage is originated or in the process of the early innings of origination till that mortgage is sold in a pool. >> That wouldn't be the case in a tokenized version in an onchain >> resi mortgage originator. Right? Done right. So I think and there are opportunities in the insurance industry. I think industries that are highly regulated, this is where it's hard because they're regulated ind but we're but we're entering this time where with the clarity act that whole universe can change. If you can find industries that are highly regulated >> that are huge in terms of TAM that have layered rent takers.

>> Those are tokenizationable. Those are markets for tokenization. >> Yeah. >> Which can in which you can build a platform that actually, you know, is an IPOable idea as Kagny's done with Figure. >> So I mean I I I I >> we think that all of the origination, trading, settlement, custody of all assets over time lives on chain. I believe in that premise. But as an investor, you got to get the timing right of which lanes are going to get the flywheel spinning fastest.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the tokenization efforts have just solely been focused on getting access to US investors to get their assets into the hands of the global investor, right? It's been get tokenized equities, tokenized stable coins, right? Just as themselves. But there's not been a lot of focus on getting global investment opportunities into the hands of more western world investors. >> There's a dirty little secret about stable coins that nobody talks about. First of all, why did stable coins originally exist?

>> They existed because there were no off-ramps, on-ramps and off-ramps in the banking system for crypto. >> So, a bunch of money was made early in this in this space. >> But to move that capital around, you needed a vehicle to do that. That was the origin of stable coins. Sure. >> And people will argue and I agree that yes, but they're creating an opportunity for people to own dollars around the world in places that people want to own dollars. That's true. And that's huge. Why does that matter? It's because we talk about the US dollar like it's the reserve currency of the world and it's not. It's the reserve currency of the West. The dollar is the reserve currency of countries that don't have

capital controls. Mhm. >> It's not a reserve currency in Argentina. Why? Because there's a limit to how many dollars you can own. It's not it's not a reserve currency in Turkey because there's a limit to how many dollars you can. And the reason for that is that those countries can't let themselves just be dollarized overnight. They have local debt in local currency. They have local economies that are built in local currency terms. Fragile as those currencies may be, that's how their economies are built. You can't just take all that indebtedness and just and just allow the those economies to dollarize overnight.

So for a long time it would it it felt like the US was going to try and limit the amount of dollars that could be bought offshore in the way that they always have and they would limit stable coin adoption. And if we had this conversation three or four years ago that would have been a smart premise but some interesting things happened. Most notably, the Japanese central bank and the Chinese central bank stopped funding our budget deficit. But and how did they do that? They stopped buying as many US treasuries.

>> We're manufacturing debt in the US at a pace like we've never manufactured before. And and a couple of our biggest buyers have slowed down their purchases of treasuries. So what did we allow to happen? We allowed dollarization to start to happen in countries where it hadn't before using stable coins. So that's all super real and those and that's the momentum of that can be massive. That's very different than the pace of that happening is very different than to expect that's going to happen with US equities overnight.

>> Right. >> Right. Again, all real world assets aren't the same. the dollar. Access to the US dollar globally is a very different thing than taking your wealth and buying other stuff that's dollar denominated. Now again, I believe all that happens. >> All that will happen over time. >> It's just a matter of if you're an investor, you want to get the the cadence and the timing of how that all unpacks right? >> Yeah. Well, we we realize your time is limited here, but want to want to get a sense of maybe just it it'd be helpful to just get a sense of how you foresee countries like Brazil, the emerging markets there. You mentioned why they're prime and ripe for tokenization. And when you speak about onchain, you speak

about credit. Is it is it the idea that there's so much capital inefficiencies that tokenization going into those emerging market? >> Simply that. Now, Brazil's an interesting case because they've got a bunch of announcements out of the central bank about limiting >> crypto movements internationally. >> Yeah. >> So, yes, for an economy to really grow, it needs credit. >> Yeah. It needs it needs like like the sweet spot of real growth separate from like countries that own huge deposits of natural resources. The sweet spot of real growth is a stable currency, a young demographic broadly and access to credit.

>> Sure. In a world where currencies are not stable, but they're not constantly devaluing in some of these countries, they found some level of stability. Demographics are right. The missing ingredient is credit. And it's hard, you know, as these countries grow, they're trying to generate internal sources of credit. But I don't think people fully grasp how much the growth of the US economy was born out of the fact that that as an economy we created unbelievable access to credit broadly from you know easy examples like car loan and car loans and mortgage loans

but really there's credit everywhere in the US that doesn't exist in that way and certainly in emerging economies and and the reason for that is it's hard to underwrite the risk. Well, if you can find interesting ways to tokenize that that risk, you will find demand for that risk from international investment >> because it's easier to extend the credit because you it's difficult to make defined investments in local currency. If you look at the EM investment managers, the emerging market big pools of institutional emerging market capital, they all now do more and more in local currency terms in local credit than they did certainly 10 years ago.

Significantly more. >> Used to be a used to be a sovereign debt game. Now it's increasingly a local credit game. >> There's demand to be able to underwrite credit and underwrite risk in high growth countries. >> Yeah. >> Tokenization could play a role. >> Yeah. Pete, thank you for spending some time with us. Um master class, >> but you uh it's worth what you paid for it, guys. We'll see you later. Take care. Welcome back to AI Supercycle, our premier AI show airing every single week

presented by Near. We cover the ins and outs of decentralized AI privacy and the future of this massive technology. Near is the blockchain for AI and the execution of AI native apps. You can check out Near's latest AI product at near.ai. Now sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. There we are. We are back from the Capital Summit here at the Ritz Carlton in Miami, Florida. Uh this is our AI show, AI Super Cycle. I'm here with Sam Green. AI Supercycle is powered by Near.

Uh they are doing tremendous things with ironclaw, Near Intense, all the likes. And we're going to be at a near event on Thursday. But now we're here with Sam Green, the founder of Cambrian Network, and we're going to be talking about Agentic Finance, Agentic Commerce. You recently did an entire agent finance report, and so we're going to be talking a lot about this. Uh Sam, how you doing, man? How you finding Miami? >> I'm doing great. This is my first time in Miami. Uh I've been listening into the show the past few days and it's been excellent. >> Appreciate it. Uh we are on the home stretch here. We did a full slate yesterday at the tokenized capital summit. Uh and we're rounding out on uh the home stretch here at the capital summit. Um

>> agents has been one of two conversations, primary fields of interest here at the conference. It's been agents and it's been tokenization. And so I want to get a sense of this agentfi report that you put out there for Q1 2026. You tested a bunch of agents. What did you find when you were testing these agents and what did you put into this report? >> Yeah, so the the uh agent five landscape is super interesting right now. Um it's about a year old with serious efforts >> and uh the the Q1 report was our latest report. We did our first one last year and we're going to have another one coming out in a month or so. So updating updating it and um I think what's interesting if we like maybe a little

bit of context >> please >> Ethereum went live 2015 >> a unis swap they went live about eight years ago >> and now about a year ago we started to see these uh new new layer built on top of the existing D5 primitives >> and um yes so my team we tried about a hundred of the projects so it's a very it's a very popular space >> and we Uh we filtered out basically the 40 of the most of the projects that are most mature that are shipping that are that have users and um I can go into I can break down what the different types are if if you >> that would be fantastic. Yeah, let's let's do it.

>> So what what we're seeing that had uh the initial the initial segment that had the most PMF was uh yield agents. M >> so these agents would basically look on chain look for yield opportunities monitoring let's say all the vaults >> um and then basically depo deploy their users capital across all these vaults and then when API APYs changed or became just changed they would rebalance and so many of the these are are rebalancing multiple times a day trying to get their users the best yield also trying to protect their users from risk uh for example with what happened with the kelp yeah um several of the companies that we work with uh they proactively withdrew their users funds before they were

locked within audit. >> Oh, that's incredible. And they did this with AI agents. >> Yes. So maybe let's let's break this down and then we'll come back to the rest of the that market uh segment. So >> uh so what what we saw was that last year most of the agents that were getting PMF that were getting uh starting to manage their users capital they were rulebased. They were what we would call bots. And then over time, over the year, what's happened is they're using more and more AI in their stack. So I'll I'll highlight Sale. Sale is a yield agent. It's a company that provides yield agents. And um uh what they now I'm going to explain how

they're using both like the rulebased logic and AI in their decision-m. >> Okay. So what what they're doing is they have a they have a risk engine that they use and for the deterministic rule-based logic they're looking at how much yield is being distributed uh across all the vaults. What is the what is the what are the APYs available and then they're also looking at volatility of the assets. They're looking at if there's capital flight from the vaults and they're looking at uh Twitter. They're looking at crypto Twitter sentiment. And this is all within their autonomous risk engine that sits on top of their uh rebalancing engine.

>> And so you can see that it's basically a blend of rule-based logic and AI to be able to uh automatically uh rebalance and protect rebalance portfolios and protect their their users portfolios. >> Okay. And so I expect to see I mean I expect to see this combination of things a lot in the coming years both in Tradfi and in crypto where you have deterministic optimization methods that you use for you know well-known well-known things. Um and then you're going to be using AI to let's say look at the news see if there's something that could destabilize the market coming up and that can help basically uh protect users.

>> Yeah. Incredible. So the primary use case for these agents right now are these yield uh these yield agents as you describe them. Uh and their primary purpose is to protect and uh make more efficient or optimize the yield that they're getting across this entire vault complex. >> Yeah, exactly. So what we saw, you know, as we entered the bare market, a lot of people went to stable coins. Yeah. People still want to get yield on their stable coins. And so that was one of the reasons these yield agents got a lot of traction was that users were basically just trying to get their best yield in their in their stable coins.

>> Um the other the other segment that has been really popular are the trading agents. Okay. >> So these are agents of course that are these agents are are really heavily using AI >> and they're looking to look for opportunities, look for buy, sell signals, analyze uh analyze reports. Um, so these are Yeah. So that's the other other segment. And then finally, just going through the other other types, we also have betting uh and prediction market agents, >> which this is this has had the least traction so far, which I'm surprised >> about.

>> So we heard a lot about this on Twitter, but on on the ground, there really hasn't been a lot of development. >> That's right. >> Yeah. Not not much activity yet. Uh I expect to see more uh on this. >> Um we also have news and analysis agents. I don't know if you know like what AIXT is. >> Yeah, of course. Um I mean that that's one of the ones that has stuck around from you know the the original cohort of crypto AI apps >> and this is you know AI expertise this prolific tweeter uh that does some pretty good analysis. Yeah. Uh on on on Twitter.

>> Yeah it's it's great. U I think um yeah so we have a handful of those. Um so that's that's a pretty good sub survey. you we have yield, we have trading, we have prediction market agents, and we have news news and financial uh uh analysis agents. >> And and you know, you also mentioned how there's rulesbased um uh bots as you call them and these are a little bit different than the agents themselves because they're not really embedding AI into uh their protocols. Can you how do how do you distinguish between bots and agents and what happens when we start to upgrade a lot of these you know simple algorithms

into fullyfledged autonomous agents. >> Yeah. So I uh may maybe just to clarify most everything these days has an AI component and is using AI somewhere in their stack if not if if only for risk >> and analyzing what's happening outside of the block of blockchains. Mhm. >> Um but um maybe so maybe going into this, what is the definition of an agent and when does a bot become an agent? So I think it's it's helpful to clarify or to distinguish between agents >> and AI agents and I would say that uh you you know agents have software agents have been around for a long time. I would classify bots as agents. They're not AI agents.

>> Got it. Um, and then what we're going to see across the board, both in trifi and in crypto, is we're going to be seeing what's going to end up, I think, happening is that there are things there are guard rails that basically the the proven techniques of of what bots use, which was really like mathematical optimization. >> Uh, there there are basically proven techniques that AI agents are going to use as tools, as screwdrivers, hammers, and whatnot. And so in the future, I expect to see more and more AI agents capturing users intent.

>> And then these AI agents will have guardrails. They'll have a toolbox of little bots >> that they can then call on and execute. >> Yeah. Yeah. So they'll have sub agents, if you will, or tools that they can call on that ultimately is going to allow them to complete their mission, uh, which is, you know, completing and accomplishing the prompt that we set out for them. Yes. Um what of this is and you mentioned yield um yield agents as as one of the primary segments for this space right now. >> It it still feels like there is a lot of hocus pocus in this in this you know agent world as a whole. Um you know on the on the news and analysis we have AI XPTt doing well. We have some yield agents doing well. For someone that's

looking to to start to take advantage and and capitalize on the opportunities um with some of these agents, where would you recommend that they get started so that they can start to navigate and avoid some of the pitfalls with these agents that are a little bit less effective um and and really start to flourish? What are some of the most um some of the agents that are able to provide the most value right now? >> Yeah. So yeah, maybe going back to your earlier comment about the hocus pocus. >> Yeah, >> I think it's interesting because we're in a we're in this uh hobbyist era >> uh where people can download open claw >> and they can spin up something on their own, right? They can connect a trading API and they can start trading. Um but then you also see things happening like

uh you see things see happening like API keys being leaked. >> Yeah. >> Money the thing doesn't do what you want it to do. So I think I think it's important to distinguish between the the hobby level activities enthusiasts right people who are semi-technical they can get their hands dirty they're doing this this is that's there's a lot of hocus pocus around that >> I think in terms of what is real if you I think a good place to go is to go to our blog at cambrian.org og and look at that report that landscape document that we wrote and you could see that we've we've we've already basically vetted we've tried all of the tools that are there. We think all of the teams that are uh that we have listed are credible and that their projects actually have

user and they're managing capital. Um I think that's the safest that's the by far the safest way to get into this. Um yeah is is through that. >> Yeah. Absolutely. And so, you know, looking at Cambrian, uh, you've got an API into a lot of these agents. Um, and so maybe you could explain the API and then we'll also get into the road map of as far as how you see this world expanding and evolving. >> Yeah. So, at the heart of things, Cambrian, we we focus on financial intelligence. And so, what does that mean?

>> So, specifically, we're monitoring onchain data and opportunities and risk >> and off-chain data. And we're basically collecting all of that data and we're organizing it and we provide it in a B it's a B2B product >> and we provide it to builders like these agent builders so that they can make more profitable and safer decisions. Yeah. >> And so for example in detail we what we do is we we're tracking things like uh a morpho compound unis swap all trading activity on chain >> um pricing on chain and we then go and dig deep we go get the details. So for example, if you right now if you wanted to get let's say the yield in A the easiest thing to do would go to would be

to go to A's website and use their a API. >> We measure it uh directly from chain data. And so specifically we have ported all the smart contract logic from all of these D5 protocols into our database. When we see transactions, we actually calculate how much yield is being generated, who made that, who made the money, what are all of the users positions, how much how much risk or how much leverage is there currently in the system. >> So, we're tracking all of that. We split it all out and then we provide it for uh we excuse me, we provide it through this API that's really easy to use.

>> Yeah. And so I'd imagine that the the segment of yield agents could actually benefit quite a bit by plugging into this API because then they would be able to rebalance and optimize the efficient frontier of this yield more efficiently as a means of hey you know if I if I you know just saw the yield I'd think oh you know there's a reputable you know DeFi vault that's out there it's got a high yield let me switch over from what I'm currently in over there. But if you had some financial intelligence that you were able to pull directly from chain data that you could say, hey, this thing is actually overlevered, the the reason why is because they had this collateral asset that, you know, maybe moved off peg up or down. That's why the yield is spiking in this particular vault. Don't go in there. It's actually a a

potentially adverse opportunity. You know, these these yield agents could prevent itself from making potentially poor decisions. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, we're we're focused on tracking opportunity, the state of what's going on on chain, the the basically the low-level risk signals >> and providing that. And this is a lot of work. This is all we focus on. We've been working uh we were we've been working in this space for uh six years. We were previously many of our team was previously core devs within the graph protocol. >> Um and now we're hyperfocused on financial data. And uh yeah, so our our goal is to provide this financial intelligence and then our customers then build products on top of these raw signals that now they don't have to run

all this heavy duty infrastructure to have this comprehensive view of the market. Yeah. And and there are many different products that that can then be built on top of the raw signal. >> And then maybe because of the I'll just I'll mention this because of the nature of this conference. Um we believe that the what as we know what's happening right now is uh within the last year we've had a lot of stable coins stable coin activity on chain. >> Yeah. >> And the next big topic is going to be stable coin yield >> and institutions are going to be needing to the same information that we're providing to agents so that they can understand their opportunities so that they can underwrite their activities so that they can monitor risk. Right. And um so we'll be expanding uh coverage into that.

>> And like you said, there's hobbyists, there's enthusiasts, the these guys are deploying agents now and they're looking to integrate with all of the potential tools and analysis and intelligence that's out there right now. And then the institutions are going to come along and they're going to start to roll out their own agents both for their own internal access as well as from for their customer access. And then they're going to be looking at some of the intelligence and data products that that you're talking about right now selling to the enthusiasts and the hobbyists, but eventually selling to the to the institutions. What is it like building a product? And I take it a data product.

You probably, you know, there there's humans that could probably benefit from it as well that you know are making some of these decisions manually. But what is it like building a product that is primarily geared for agents? How do you >> you know like right now we're having a podcast. People are going to be listening to this. People are going to be listening to this. Like marketing for agents means different things. Eventually maybe this this show makes its way into the agent verse. Like what is marketing, sales, product development? How do these things change when you go from a product for humans versus a product for agents?

>> Yeah, great question. Um maybe I I'd like to uh give a little background uh so on myself. So before I uh got into crypto, I did my my PhD was focused on AI, specifically reinforcement learning, which is the technique that has really unlocked a lot of the capabilities in LLMs in the past few years. >> So I've been thinking about agents and autonomous decision-m and safe autonomous decision-m for a long time. >> And so I was thrilled as soon as as soon as GPT came out and at the end of 2022, >> we started experimenting. And in 2023, we we created the first dashboard where someone could ask questions about blockchain data. We also did the first trade natural language trade where you could say I want to do this for that. M

>> and and so in 20 we started this as a pilot project in my previous company these efforts and we started seeing uh oh the agents the LLMs were having a really difficult time for example writing complex SQL >> just like you know every time you use GPT it's going to give you a different answer and similarly if you want to write a complex SQL query query for a database it will often be different and will misinterpret or maybe interpret slightly differently your question each time and give you different results. M >> so one way that impacted us is that's why we decided from the beginning we were founded at the end of 2024 >> to create an an API as our first product >> an API that is very simple to use every everything is very very cleanly

delineated and you can point an agent to one page and the and the agent can immediately know how to get the information without having to write anything. Um so that's that's kind of that's an example of how we've tailored the product and it's also really easy for humans to to navigate. So you a human could be interested in yield. They can then go to a particular page and they can go see you know what is the the API call to get the yield data that they're interested in. >> Yeah. And and you know you've done this by starting out with a ton of market research you know through this agent fi uh research report. Um next up uh according to the road map here you've got epoch one the verifiability epoch.

>> That's right. >> Uh followed by a mainet uh launch. That's right. uh take us through how you've uh you've you've segmented out these epochs. Yep. >> First we've got verifiability, then a mainet launch in and the mainet launch is where is the API live right now or or >> is it it's uh it's in uh private beta right now? >> Private beta right now. And so we've got verifiability to start then mainet then the convergence epoch. I'm very curious to hear about that and then the evolution epochs that follow. take us through verifiability, mainet launch, and convergence.

>> Okay. Yeah, maybe I'll I'll tackle this from uh we'll look at uh uh chain link. >> Sure. >> Chain link uh they essentially provide pricing >> data, real-time pricing data. >> And the reason that they have become uh so popular is because they can provide it in a verifiable way. They have a track record of of providing it accurately, a track record of of high having high uptime. they don't go down and it's verifiable through their network of validators. Um similarly what we're providing is we're providing a comprehensive view of the onchain of the onchain market. We're providing a view of like we were talking about what are

the what's the yield currently being uh currently available how much risk how much risk is there currently in the system and uh many other details. And so what we're going to be doing is we're our our current our when we go to market the initial product is going to be a centralized product that you'll pay with credit card >> but over time what we believe is that we can expand the DeFi design surface. >> Okay. >> By providing our data in a verifiable way which will come from a network. Yeah. >> And so you could think we're going to have an oracle network that can be providing yield opportunities the risk in the system user historical user activity. Mhm.

>> And you can kind of think of this another way to think of this is onchain the currently current onchain products like unis swap are very simple >> they just have the current price that's all they they have >> and if you think about a business a real world business what real world business only knows the current state of the business not the historical state they don't >> current uh businesses in the real world know what's happening at different chains >> that are that are around there uh their different locations and none of that information is available for decision-making within DeFi today and we want to we want to expose expose that information on chain.

>> Yeah. And increase the context window um across you know several chains historical context all all of this. Um and so this is the verifiability epoch as you start to expose all of this data and make it available for both agent decision makers as well as as well as humans. Um and then the mainet launch um and so this will ultimately become launched. Um and you described this how you know you ultimately will be uh unveiling a lot of this data and a lot of this uh access to um you know this via you know these agents.

>> That's right. >> Um and then you have the convergence epoch. I'm very curious about convergence. We've been talking about the convergence for a long long time. You know both uh tradi and digital assets are converging. Uh and then ultimately finance as a whole is evolving into a more digital and agentic world. uh talk to us a bit about the convergence epoch and how you plan on scaling from there. >> Absolutely. So, just as a as a note, we we we built that website uh that website went live a year ago. >> And so, we've we we've believed in the convergence uh since, you know, for for quite a while.

>> Yeah. >> And we we we see three things converging. I I heard your previous interview. I heard a note on the convergence of of AI and crypto. So that that is uh one area that we see converging. Um I think the the reason is is because as everyone knows operating on chain is complex especially when you're doing self-custody it's it's complex looking for opportunities on chain also complex and so we believe that the that agentic finance can lower the friction for for users >> and that's going to be done through automation and AI >> um >> and then of course we see a convergence there's a also a convergence with AI and

finance happening. >> Yeah. >> And then it's also clear now that there is a convergence between Trafi and crypto is converging. >> Yeah. >> And so we we believe that blockchains are going to have especially when automation is layered on top >> uh through AI. blockchains are going to have the least risk, the least fees. Uh that that that uh it will have the best and it will have the best opportunities, >> most liquidity. >> Um and so we think that that's where things are headed and that's where we're where we're trying to position ourselves is to be the the financial intelligence provider for that convergence. So we're starting with this small this emerging

market of of agent PI. We know that as Trad starts to do onchain activities that they're going to need the same information for for their decision-m and for their underwriting, >> right? >> And then we also know that we have to build a product that can be easily used by AI uh because >> that's what developers are using to develop. So our tool has to be very trivial to integrate and then our the speed of decision-m is going to we're going to be seeing the speed of deci financial decision- making increase. And so we've also designed our whole system from scratch so that we can provide that information provide fast comprehensive and verifiable information >> for the for the this high-speed financial future.

>> Yeah, fascinating. Uh Sam, as we close out here, you know, any closing thoughts from your end? This has been a fantastic conversation on our AI super cycle show. Also, please, you know, tell people where they can find uh yourself and where they can uh learn a bit more about Cambrian. Um, I'll tell you right now it's cambrian.org and uh and and where can they find you, learn a little bit more and and maybe get in touch to ultimately uh utilize and capitalize on the financial intelligence that you're that you're talking about with respect to this convergence.

>> Thank you. Uh yeah, so I'll I'll think I'll just leave with uh my Twitter handle is 0x Sam Green. That's that's a good starting point to follow what we're doing. >> Perfect. Sam, thanks so much for joining, man. Absolutely pleasure. Yeah, enjoy the rest of your conference. >> Appreciate it. You too. >> All right, guys. Uh that was AI super cycle episode uh 32. So we are absolutely cranking out uh all of these episodes around the convergence both AI digital assets and tradi as Sam alluded to. Guys we will be right back with our coverage of the capital summit here live in Miami. don't go anywhere >> in the stable coin payments I would say asset tokenization sectors because

what's happening is that you know traditional fintexs for example are now starting to enter the crypto markets through things like stable coins and you know building on top of blockchains to advance like their tokenization efforts or leveraging you know APIs for embedding yield in like let's say you know their products right so you see a lot of like you know crypto enabled neo banks and So it's very fun for us because now it's you know broadening our aperture for what we can go after from an investment lens right like we always want to see Coinbase visions will always be a cryptonative crypto first fund so we always want to see like there is some type of crypto blockchain component right so it gives us it's given us an opportunity to kind of look at some of

these traditional businesses and looking at some of the use cases that are starting to emerge. >> Yeah. Are you guys also investing in companies that are like supporting the vision of like Circle and Arc? Like is that like a thematic for you guys? >> Yeah. So, you know, Coinbase Ventures, we are ecosystem agnostic, right? So, you you can look around and say any major blockchain eosystem. >> I find that hard to believe. >> No, we are. Seriously, >> I will not. All right. So, tell me some tell me some tether based companies that you've invested in, please. >> Tetherbased companies. Oh, that that one might be a tough one. But we have a lot of Salana based companies. So, contrary to popular popular belief. Um and the reason that we kind of set up that way is that you know again our investment you know agreement is to go very broad

and broad right we want to back the best builders irrespective of the ecosystem. We actually carved out a separate base ecosystem fund that's managed by the base team so that way they can optimize and focus on base builders. Um and then we're going to go after like some of the the best talent that is out there irrespective of the exact and that's why we're here this week to kind of spend some more time within the Salana ecosystem. Salana accelerate being tomorrow etc. >> Nice. >> Very cool. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm curious what you're seeing on the valuation side. How has that changed this year with, you know, bit of a depressed market? Are we still doing seed rounds five and 50 or we down to like the $30 million valuation? We've done like two deals this year and I think they were both around 30 mil.

>> Yeah. I think like it's probably like this year has been a bit odd in terms of it's eb and flowed on the valuations in my perspective. Right. So where you have seen you know some seed rounds that were probably down in like that kind of sub 30 on average we have seen like kind of like the 50 and it really just it's case depending depending on like the sector right because again if I look at just like stable coins and payments sometimes you're talking to very established companies that are ARR generating sometimes 5 $10 million rounds and those companies actually look like more growth equity type of plays. they are like some of the relatively agentic commerce AI businesses that are kind of starting to take some of that AI premium as well. So it really just varies but again you know we while we are valuation sensitive our

main thing is just thinking about value capture and what do we have to believe to get a very strong outcome on that investment. >> Yeah incredible. >> John what are the kind of key objectives for Coinbase Ventures when it comes into helping their portfolio companies? Obviously, uh people probably think, oh, like you're going to get listed on Coinbase. It's not that easy. What do you guys actually do to help your portfolio companies? >> Yes. So, that is the one area that we cannot help with help with. Um but, you know, most of our portfolio companies, they really see us as the API into Coinbase, right? So, if they want connectivity into let's say our product teams, early access to products, if they wanted some like advisory support, we're always open to to providing that. We

have the largest portfolio in crypto, so 600 plus companies. So oftent times you see our portfolio companies selling or collaborating with each other. Um, and then we're just well connected beyond just having like the Coinbase brand on the on the cut table. We're well connected u within the industry to be able to kind of facilitate intros where needed. >> Well, Jonathan, go out there and get some deals, man. I I appreciate you spending some time with us, man. >> Um, any are do you have a lot of meetings booked up this week or you Yeah. Yes, it is a backtoback week, right? So, I like I said, I will be at Salana Accelerate all day. So, for any of the builders out there, feel free to stop by, say hello. Um, we can connect and I'll be here um throughout the entire week.

>> Hell yeah, man. Thanks for the time for me, guys. Thank you. >> Thank you, sir. >> That is Jonathan from Coinbase Ventures, one of the largest, if not the largest by portfolio companies, venture firms in the space, powered by Coinbase's balance sheet themselves. Great guest, fun guy. We're going to take a quick break, guys. We're going to throw you on to the panels. There is some awesome panels happening today with a lot of institutional allocators. We're going to get you guys there, get them set up. We'll be right back. >> And uh people do this because um you you want to receive this reward because bitcoins are valuable and Ethereum are valuable. So, the val were out there for several years. This was happening five years ago.

>> They're different from the stock market. They're different from bonds. Not that they're like somehow special, they just don't all crash together. And that gives you real diversification. And so what we built Gamma Prime for was essentially like look, let's make these sort of alternative investments more accessible to more people. So you still have to be accredited, which is a requirement in the US, you know, you know, to do any sort of private investment. Globally, overseas, they all have their own sort of accreditation requirement. So you still have to be credited, but most people don't even know where to go to start to find these things. And so we figured we'll put them all in one place.

>> Yeah. And so who who is the primary customer cuz like you said, plenty of experience opening up uh access to a lot of these alternative investments. Who's the primary, you know, buyer and in demand of these things? So I would say we range anywhere from the the sort of basic credit investor that's maybe putting in you know 10 20,000 $50,000 into investment all the way up to just short of the institutions. Okay. So we will sort of we'll sort of end right around the ultra high net worth large family office. We have several family offices. They're even in the billion dollar range which is quite large. But >> we are back here at the Capitol Summit in the Ritz Carlton in Miami, Florida.

>> Beach. >> Miami Beach. >> The beach. >> The beach. We're ready for the beach. So is our next guest, Phillip, who looks like he's been in Miami since the 70s. This guy is the best dressed in Miami Beach. Kick the shoes up on the table. Let's see what we're working with. We got some insane shoes going on. >> Phil, this is where we're going to start. What compelled the the funky looking suit today? How did you put this together? >> Um I mean this actually I designed this um with with a guy out of Hong Kong. Um I mean I don't know. Just like it. Just having some fun standing out from the crowd. Let's go. I mean I've got the regular suit on today. I feel like I'm gonna I'm gonna upgrade my suit game after this uh this week in Miami.

>> Yeah, man. >> Um and so Phil, you know, you mentioned you designed it from a guy in Hong Kong. We're going to be talking about DeFi today. I think you've probably been in DeFi for quite a while. Uh you're bringing some of the original spirit back in the game. Tell us your origin story here. Tell us a little bit about Philip Fogle lore. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I started my career actually trading options um back on the the floor of an exchange back when that was something that actually still took place. Um and I got introduced to Bitcoin in 2013 after being in TRDI and being a fintech founder for a little bit and was, you know, enamored with it.

always sort of been fascinated with money. Um, and when I discovered Bitcoin, I was like, "Wow, this could actually be something." Um, first bare market, I was like, "Ah, maybe not." Um, and then by 2016 2017, I was really all in on the web 3 thesis, on the Bitcoin monetary policy thesis. Um, and really dove in head first. Um, built my first crypto company, which was at the time building staking infrastructure. Um, when proof ofstake chains were coming out and, you know, all the rage during the ICO boom, there was no infrastructure. if you wanted to stake your assets, you were basically doing it in a hot wallet, which was insane. Um, and so there was infrastructure needed very early into MPCs. Um, and then got into, you know, after that was a co-founder of a company called Flow

Carbon. And we were building onchain carbon markets infrastructure. Um, and the thesis there was carbon markets are going to be huge, multi-t trillion dollar asset class, and the blockchain is this amazing use case for actually tokenizing and actually recording what happens with carbon credits as a primitive. Um, and so the opportunity that I saw was to build out the full stack financing ecosystem for carbon credits on chain as a native primitive um, first-class citizen. And obviously both parts of that thesis didn't come true. Um, but >> in in a very spectacular way. We we raised a ton of money, tried to build something, and carbon markets went sort of like this. Um, and were blocked from actually being brought on chain by the existing issuers of carbon credits. Um,

the incumbents were like, we don't want transparency. we we don't want this market to be more efficient. Um in in a lot of ways that was sort of there for a lot of reasons because there were massive structural problems to carbon markets that were being hidden underneath this. And so that when that didn't work out I had spent some time thinking about what actually needed to be built in the ecosystem. And one of the things that I had thought about during thinking about how you would build a securization and financing ecosystem was credit default swaps. How would you build something like that on chain? And so um that's how cork started was sort of that ideation around what's needed. And then when you sort of looked around at the ecosystem, you saw there really is no primitives for risk on chain today.

>> Um and the ecosystem needs them. And it's it's a badly needed tool and discipline that currently is, you know, a little bit overlooked. >> I'm calling it right now. We're going to get carbon markets back on chain. Uh 2028, I feel like we we might have a shift in the administration. I think the environment might become a bit of a priority again. And now we have tokenization infrastructure. Uh I feel like maybe just a bit too early. Not that the thesis didn't play out. I mean, look at the tokenization super cycle we're in right now. Feels like maybe there the timing was just wasn't exactly perfect on that one.

>> But we're not going to be focusing on car markets here today. Uh despite the bold take, we're going to be talking about Cork Protocol. uh which is how uh you know you're now thinking about uh RWAS and you're thinking about securitization tokenization here and so tell us a bit more about how you found uh cork um and generally how you think about you mentioned credit default swaps how you think uh the maturation of this industry when it comes onchain we're ultimately going to need to first you know create a lot of the same primitives that exist offchain then we can create some net new primitives what is currently missing from the RWA stack that Cork aims to uh aims to fix.

>> I mean, if you if you think about what DeFi is actually doing and has been doing for the past decade, we're running through financial history on fast forward and improving on what we've what's come before us. And so, there are new primitives that are getting built and new ways of doing things, some of which are non-skeumorphic, right? Some of which are actually, oh, this is a totally new and interesting way of handling this problem or creating this kind of product, right? Vaults are a great example of that. AMMs are a great example of that. um what's missing is any sort of risk primitive, right? And and that can manifest itself in a lot of different ways. So from everything from how do I get downside protection, how do I get something that looks and feels or acts similarly to a credit default swap for an onchain credit product. And if

you actually think about almost all onchain products, with the exception of Bitcoin and ETH and and other pure play utility governance tokens, almost everything is actually a credit product, right? A stable coin is a credit product. um an LRT, an LST, there's they're credit products, right? It's an IOU that someone issues, there's credit risk, there's infrastructure risk. All of these different risks exist in these products. And as we stack them on top of each other to build more interesting and more compelling financial products, right, we're stacking all these risks and that risk is interconnected. >> And when we saw that in Kelpa, yeah, it was a great example of all the different risks that you could or lots of different risks that could come out all at once, right? you saw bridge risk all of a sudden pop up and we still don't know how that's going to be resolved. Um

you saw liquidity risk which was something that most people looked at a and was like a is a you know basically liquid markets and my capital is not going to get stuck there. No one was pricing the liquidity risk in there, right? You had DPEG risk, which again wasn't something that they thought for an LRT like Kelp was actually going to be an issue, right? You have oracle risks. You have all of these things that are currently stacked together. And there's no way for people to say, I want to price individual portions of this risk. I want to be able to actually isolate that risk. Right now, it's all bundled together in a number that's like, oh, what am I getting for lending?

What's my rate? Right? But it's not actually pulling out the individual risks in any meaningful way and allowing you to hedge and price or set even just set a market signal on this is what this risk cost or what this risk should cost. Wait, but when we're thinking about these as liquid tokens now, you know, there's a lot of problems with the wrapped token world out there. There a lot of fragmentation, but at least it gives us a sense that, you know, this token and that token are not the same. The native token on mainet is not the same as a wrapped version that went over a bridge and now exists on an L2. These two things are different. One's wrapped, one's not, there should be a different price in a liquid market for those two assets. Similarly, if we have a staked version, you know, it's essentially

another wrapper, right? And then if you if you put it into a lending market like a, then it becomes an a token and you have all these prefixes, right? You have an a LRT ARB if it's on arbitum, right? ETH, right? And you have all these prefixes. These are different tokens. They should trade at different prices. And conceptually those different liquid prices would represent the risk, right? But what you're saying is that's not the case. That's not sufficiently or efficiently calculating or pricing the risk that goes into these assets. So you are getting some signal out of a liquid price, right? And so when you're looking at how these things trade on different L2s or different ecosystems, right? A

lot of that is a function of like the liquidity profile and how easily you can go from one place to another. But largely that is not the factor that's causing that is not actually someone sitting there consciously being like oh you know what this L this LRT trading on this L2 is exposed to this bridge and therefore it should be priced differently than how it's priced on mainet. In fact, most people are actually looking at the fact that you can just arb that and bring the prices together without a conscious choice or conscious like price setting around there being different risks. And for the most part, we haven't seen that risk expose itself >> in such a large way. And so most people aren't thinking about it, right? If if you actually go back to you know how you would do like real credit ratings and

real underwriting on these assets when you actually looked at them you would identify that and you would say you know what there is three extra risk factors that exist for the arbitum version of RS that doesn't exist for the mainet version of RS >> the the kind of funny thing in all of this is is that risk actually now isolated right because you know or is it going to be socialized across the entire protocol in in reality what was >> stolen And what was you know in the exploit was the bridged asset right? And so in theory it should be that those assets are worth zero not all assets are worth 87 cents but that's also not defined which is a whole other you know area of how do you handle risk and manage these things on chain. You you kind of always want to in these

scenarios actually define this stuff up front so that you know why in trify instruments when you look at perspecti they're like you know this thick. Part of it is because they've some a lawyer has sat there and been like, "Well, I'm going to come up with every edge case and I'm going to, you know, spill you thousands of dollars an hour to think about the edge cases and make some decisions so that when this comes down to, you know, the worst thing happening and the edge case does play out, we actually know the answer, right? And we can go back and look at it." >> Yeah, man. >> And it's not defined. Yeah, I had the Sky co-founder on Rune and he was talking about how this this specific incident has led him to deeply think about all of the worst possible scenarios that could happen with his

protocol and clearly lay out exactly what will happen after the fact rather than playing the aftermath politics. >> Yeah, I mean I think that a lot of certainly we did the same thing internally. We had a you know you know what if someone who bought a what was meant to be a downside protection like a DPEG swap on an asset but then that asset is hacked and then they are able to get their hands on that and use that to get to a clean asset right should we stop that right should we have something in place to prevent that from happening I think a lot of teams are now asking themselves the question of like oh [ __ ] we've done no contingency planning for how this looks and there is no playbook and it's sort of now it's up to the DAO or it's up to a team with a multi-IG

right and it's I think a lot of this needs to get played out in order for you to have real underwriting right in the space and you have to have these things being able to be modeled and looked at and said, "Okay, if this happens, here's who takes the loss." >> Yeah. So, do you think there's a possibility for a shared risk framework in the in the DeFi space? >> I would hope so. Um, I think it's more likely that you have a, and what I really hope and what I'm building for is that you have a standardized primitive that allows you to price the different risk factors and then and isolate them and then that becomes standardized market information.

>> I think until you have like it is unlikely that DeFi or crypto as an industry on its own gets together behind a shared risk framework, you're going to have a lot of people competing to create risk frameworks. You're going to have individual teams. So unless you have a regulatory regime that that enforces that um I think it's unlikely you get it >> naturally and so what you want to have is market mechanisms that serve that purpose. >> Yeah. And maybe what what would that actually look like in practice like a mechanism that serves that purpose? >> So in the case of what we're building at Cork, you have you basically have a primitive that allows you to tokenize the two sides of a risk trade. You can isolate a specific risk like you can isolate liquidity risk. You can isolate downside risk. You could in theory

isolate oracle risk. You could take any sort of risk you want isolate and say hey I'm creating a contract that basically has a payout or a swap that takes place in the event of XYZ happening right and then the cost of that is indicating to you where the market views the risk. How where someone is willing to sell that and price it gives you a lot of information. And so let's let's just kind of rehash the the kelped out incident and and take the the bridge risk, right? Um what would be, you know, using those inputs, what what would a concrete example with the kelp, you know, ecosystem >> or like that that incident, what would that look like using using cork as a mechanism to price these?

>> So that's that's a great um example. I'm do like a very simple sort of dumb down one that I think a lot of people can understand, which is >> let's take AET, right? And so Ae was this asset that most people assumed was relatively liquid. Yeah. Um but in reality in the exploit scenario became illlquid. So if you had a cork market that was using a ETH as the reference asset and had another ETH product either plain ETH ste e etc as the collateral asset with that the ability where the exchange rate between those two was set at let's say NAV right um it would have allowed you to take that AE and know that you can exit it at a known price the NAV right at any time and so you would pay something upfront so you'd buy

basically you're buying a contract you're paying the premium Right? Which is allowing you to then use have that optionality of guaranteed exit. Right? And guaranteed is a complicated word in cryptoland. Right? But you have a smart contract promise that there is an asset sitting there that's inside of a smart contract that only you can access with this other token and that its ability to be taken out is limited by the smart contract. >> And the price of that option is the price of the risk. >> Right. Exactly. Right. Like how illquid do you think a ETH is going to be? How much are you willing to pay for it? Mhm.

>> We we did some exercises on that and and the spreads were pretty wild. We're actually doing it on ETH. Um and we had one counterparty that said that they were willing to buy liquidity on E a ETH um at five basis points annualized but sell it at 50. >> Wow. >> So so so that would mean that they're buying it. So so there's a ton of spread there which means that someone can market make that and sell the product and >> Yeah. Exactly. And so that's ultimately what happens is that well that's one that's one counterpart that was sort of saying we'd be buyers and sellers at this price spread, but that means there's a lot of room in the middle to actually find a true market clearing price >> um of where that that would actually sit.

>> And so people want that guarantee, but they're not willing to provide it. >> Well, they're willing to provide it at a cost, right? You pay me 50 basis points and I'm willing to provide it, but I'm not willing to I'm only going to buy it at five basis points. And I think that's the that that's it's sort of emblematic of how inefficient crypto markets are right now, right? And part of the reason is is that you don't have an open market for this. There isn't a right like right now we're doing deals in like an OTC fashion. Um there isn't sort of a public place where people can do an RFQ or get a curator to sort of price this or a risk underwriter to price these things.

That will evolve over time and as time goes on, you'll see these market spreads compress. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Phil, what's next for you guys as you guys kind of come into this second half of the year ahead? >> Yeah, so we're building out vault infrastructure. Um, we're building out ways for you to have primary underwriting. Um, sitting in in a vault with a vault with a curator as we we normally talk, but really as a risk underwriter who's able to do primary underwriting. Um, and then having, if you think about the other side of the trade being tradable, right, a primary underwriter, very similar to how you have an insurance, you have reinsurance that comes in. You'll have additional product or add additional products that get created and additional counterparties that want to buy that exposure, right, and get paid to yield.

So, it'll it'll be I think we're going to start seeing an entirely new capital formation stack that will develop on chain for risk. Um that allows the market to actually come into a much more efficient state when you're able to price these things in real time. >> Yeah, Phil, man. >> The Yeah. >> Uh I don't know if you got to run back to the circus, back to the options, >> the juxiposition of this industry right now is that we're we're underrating risk and the guy's wearing a disco ball Miami suit.

>> I don't know if you got to go to the club tonight. I see a wedding ring on. Nice. You're going to keep it nice and chill. >> Um, man, thanks for joining us, man. Pleasure. >> I know it's been a busy day for you. >> Yeah, definitely. But always great to be here. Thank you so much for coming on. Cheers. See you next time. Of course, >> guys. We're going to take a break. We got Hmonry from Arch coming up next. We're going to pass you back to our Alpha Growth founder conversation yesterday at Gamma Prime Summit. Be right back. layer zero's default configuration and of course that's that's what they were

doing. >> Yeah. >> So here's where we're at. What's your read on this man? Where are we at here? Okay. >> Um give us your honest take. >> Uh honest opinion it's a multiple failure from a multiple entities. It's a problem for layer zero because now they have a brand issue. Like how can if they're if I'm there and I'm trusting layer zero to be my canonical bridge. If they're just saying, "Oh, it's not my fault." Then how can I trust them ever again with any other token in the future? So that's a problem. The other problem is Kelp itself. Why did they only have one of one validators? Like ostensibly, if you like look at the evidence, it seems to me that DPRK hacked the two validators of layer zero, uploaded a binary, and so that's a legitimate hack. So that's like layer zero's like core thing is like if that's

the if that's the issue, that's a hack. It's their fault. Um, I think when you have starts to get into these weird lawsuits, I may know a little bit too much information to to talk about, but there's the public lawsuits and then there's the private lawsuits against individuals at A Labs as well going on right now. So there's >> Right. So they're getting sued on all sides. So as soon as you step away and you try to start to centralize away from the DAO, now you open yourself up to like regulatory risk from everywhere and every person all over the world. So, you know, if you look at like ACI and Zeer like kind of stepping away, >> like that was their legal cover. Now, it's one person or a couple people that

hold all the >> liability. Was it good timing? >> Well, was it just good timing for Zeer to step away before this all unfolded? You know, he he basically pointed at A V4 and all the incentives around that and saying, "Hey, A's not positioned for the future. you know, they're going to give a bunch of money to A Labs and so we're just going to step away from this. And a lot of the other risk curators and contributors to a dow did so at the same time. That was what 2 weeks before this hack. >> Is that just good timing or what going on there?

>> Look, I I think maybe but like last month was the largest hacked vector ever in crypto. Like the most amount of hacks, the most amount of money. I don't think that's going away. Like I think we're going to see this for like the next 6 months like Mythos or whatever and this like AI agents. It's getting easier and easier to hack these contracts and like dude there might be people around here right now working for a nation state government. >> There's a nation state attacking our industry. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you're right there's a lot of these older smart contracts that haven't really been maintained properly.

And I think there is some sort of like scanning being done across the entire onchain landscape with some very advanced LLM technology that is basically like looking for easy vectors right like there's probably a spectrum of difficulty in terms of like how how much effort how much capital is going to be required to do this and it's definitely you know there's that scanning that's happening and that's why you're seeing these little small like little $1 million $3 million from like old protocols >> and it's just kind of like well they haven't really been >> Yeah. I mean like if you look if you look at these old contracts uh there are businesses in crypto uh where we've like kind of turned down maybe they're making like 200k a year in revenue where just like it's too small to like take on that liability of securing that running

growth running marketing for a particular protocol like the cost of some of these like Dows compound Dow was paying $4 million a year to for risk and security a was paying closer to $8 million >> if they can't keep their stuff secure and on point. Honestly, who can't? >> Yeah, you know, it's crazy that Chaos Labs also announced their departure prior to the exploit as well. They were kind of like the main risk curator and they were doing things with a there. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And then two weeks later after risk curators leave is when that's the most riskiest time for the protocol.

>> No, but it was that was because they they didn't want to secure V4. This was V3. >> Exactly. This was very similar to why ACI left from and Zeer left. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Ziller is a force of nature and people are loyal to him. It's really that simple. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Tell us a bit about Alpha Growth. What are you guys doing in the market today? I know we're kind of short on time, but what is your kind of uh holistic view on marketing on protocols on financial products on chain? Where do you guys kind of fit in? >> Cool. So, uh we recently, this will come up a big announcement coming up soon. uh Oiler Dow handed us over their DAO markets to start running for the Oiler uh as the main risk curator. Uh so we're working a lot of with Oiler. We work

with like a lot of different chains on growing their TVL, growing their ecosystems, and then we're launching our own set of uh structure products for a couple private LPS. >> All righty, guys. We are back at the Tokenized Capital Summit here in Miami Beach. It is 3:58 p.m. on a lovely Tuesday afternoon. 75 degrees, sunny outside, Latinos walking around. We got Hamanchu, the CEO of Arch Lending in the building. This guy's a legend. Let's give him some love. Good, good to see you, man. Welcome to the show. >> Good to see you, too. >> How you find in Miami so far, brother?

>> Beautiful. I won't say all the words he said, but most of them. >> Yeah. Here you go, brother. Let's get Let's get a glass of champagne and talk about Bitcoin lending. Please tell us about Arch. Tell us about what you've been building the last couple years. I understand you guys have grown quite a bit and uh there's a strong strong demand for people to get more out of their uh out of their Bitcoin specifically. So would love to hear how you guys started. >> Yeah, you know, first off, people um have not historically had a lot that they can do with Bitcoin. You can do payments. There's been some lending companies that have failed for many reasons. We were started in the wake of that. And the goal really is to build the most secure uh company for anything you want to do with your Bitcoin, right?

So it's not just lending. We started off with lending and that's our primary focus. Uh we started off in 2022, grown significantly since then. >> Uh but we speak to all our clients, we understand the needs and we're we have so much more coming out this year. I can go into it but I think on lending itself uh the market has changed so much. So when we started it was like very vanilla lending. There were like three companies doing it. Now there's a lot more players and there's a lot more use cases too. We speak to all of our clients so we know exactly what they want and we've launched different structured products in the last few months and have a few coming out where it goes to their use case whether that's people that are retiring, people that want to depreciate taxes. We'll get into like more

investing use cases as well. We have like a mining use case right now that we do as well. So I think it's it's the biggest inflection point in lending like credit is the key component of any asset class. this one in particular being an appreciating asset that you shouldn't sell at least in in our opinion and you should extract liquidity and extract different use cases from it along the way. >> Um given that Bitcoin is fundamentally it's a native asset doesn't have any native yield uh unlike something like Ethereum that you know does have that that native issuance. H >> how how do you generate the yield from Bitcoin and some of these products? uh what does native yield on Bitcoin look like when you know Bitcoin itself uh doesn't have that?

>> Yeah. So, we don't have a yield product at the moment and our loans we don't rehypothecate so we don't touch them. We don't get any yield on them. There's many ways to do it. A lot of prime brokers etc. historically have done um unsecured Bitcoin loans to get yield and that's it's it still happens all the time but that's for a very institutional client, right? Um if you talk about retail or the average user out there who wants yield, I think there's many ways to do it. We're exploring a few right now. We'll definitely play in that space very soon. Uh but there's like your vanilla strategies like a covered call, you could do like a calendar put strategy, you could do any variation of that or you can invest in a hedge fund and then you have redemption periods and such. Uh I think what's very interesting

in that space, so in the Bitcoin space, one of the biggest things right now is digital credit, right? >> Yeah. And stretch >> stretch >> and like our lord and savior Michael Sailor uh talks about that non-stop. >> Yeah, that guy's a legend. How was his uh talk in Vegas? >> I didn't see the talk, but I had uh a dinner with him uh that night or I guess the Monday night and he all he talked about with digital credit. He wants every treasury to have a version of stretch. And for those of you who don't know Stretch, it's a perpetual preferred dividend stock uh which give which pays 11.5% and the benefit is that it doesn't have um any tax liability. It's like tax deferred because it's treated as a a return on cash. Uh it's not treated as a dividend. So you get 11.5% free and

clear. Um there's a lot you can do with a lot of our clients we learned after speaking to them are already using stretch by borrowing case of bitcoin putting into stretch and then they manage that themselves where you know if you are invested in by the 15th of the month you get the dividend at the end of the month. Uh we're going to have a product coming out very soon where we make all that very simple and kind of like a oneclick solution and you get bitcoin denominated uh like returns not dollar denominator. >> Yeah. start with a >> like pull back your loan after the 15th of the month, pay it back, not have to pay the interest, then at the beginning of the next month, restart the >> Some people do that. I mean, that's if you want to do it, it's very

complicated, right? Cuz you're paying origination fees and such. And true. >> Like we do speak to a lot of clients and we do give custom rates for people that have more specific use cases like this. Uh but I think there's a way to do it in a fully managed fashion which is like a oneclick set it and forget it. And I think it's not just investing in stretch. which is another one called SATA from Strive and that obviously much smaller, less liquid. I think it's at 26 million right now uh versus a stretch is at like 10 and something million. Um that pays 13%. There's a way to man and I think more of these are going to come out. There's a way to manage a portfolio of Z's and provide like a yield to a user and do a cash and crit rate of

Bitcoin. I think our rates um we have dropped our rates quite significantly and then I I can preview it like you'll see a much bigger rate drop from us tomorrow uh where you can actually collateralize your Bitcoin get a pretty good yield by doing the cash and car trade with Stretch. >> Yeah. And what's the um what's your minimum to deposit? >> 5K is the minimum loan amount. Uh so minimum to deposit it's a 60% LTV. So you can do the math around 9,000 uh like worth of Bitcoin. And we have other assets that we support as well. Uh we're also getting into some more interesting things like tokenized gold and such which we'll talk about a bit more uh soon. But I think um on the Bitcoin side specifically uh 5K is pretty reasonable.

We could go lower. The reason we don't is because we have a very handheld bike glove like approach. Our platform is fully automated but we speak to all our clients. We give them a lot of our time. As a result has to make sense economically to able to support everyone. Hence the 5k minimum. I will say our average loan size is well into the six figures. So the 5k customer is much fewer and far between than like the 300 400k or $5 million customer and more. >> Yeah. Um we're already starting to see an ecosystem develop on top of Stretch which is really cool to see. You you mentioned how you know you can make it very easy one click to ultimately uh kind of take take advantage and capitalize on some of those opportunities with Stretch. Uh we also spoke with a company called APYX that is

looking to tokenize and bring stretch onchain. >> They've done really well in the last month. I think they raised like 200 300 million in capital into stretch. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Or not into stretch I think into uh >> into APYX and a lot of that goes into Stretch, but they were able to do some looping and DeFi native strategies with it. Um it just feels like Sailor hit a home run here. I mean you know when you think about stretch but then you know even digital credit more broadly like I guess let's just start here what's the difference between credit and digital credit so this is any form of yield lending any capital markets work is credit right anything that you're providing against an asset is credit uh the reason it's

called digital credit it's just it's a buzz word it's just because it's against uh a bitcoin like asset it doesn't mean anything it's it's it's not in any financial dictionary that you would read. Um, with Stretch, uh, I think it's a financial product. Uh, sorry, it's a fantastic product and I think a lot of treasuries now, at least I know anecdotally, are looking to offer this. Uh, we actually are looking to do some lending for treasuries investing in stretch as well, which uh, we'll do soon. Any treasury when they do loan is required to disclose. So all this will be public information. >> Yeah. >> Um, but I think uh, it can be if you look at treasuries, we had the treasuries like 1.0 last year, right?

like everyone raised a bunch of money, they did ATMs and now it's compressed they and they all kind of got screwed or a lot of them got screwed. Many are are healthy of course um as many look to have yield opportunities, operating business etc. >> Having a a product like this that connects to your stock and provides liquidity into it is huge. Also gives them an opportunity to like raise capital to buy more Bitcoin which is kind of the goal for it's the goal for a lot of treasuries. I think Sailor hit a home run, not just with Stretch itself, but also with the idea. And I think he's now evangelizing that to everybody else, which I think makes a lot of sense. Do I think there's going to be a 100 versions of Stretch? No. Maybe they will. Will they have a lot of liquidity? Probably

not. But I think there can be different use cases. What doesn't exist today is like a trunched version where you have a senior trans, a junior because you are taking risk on stretch being at that $100 price, right? Like there's some volatility, but it's very minimal. With SATA, I think the volatility is like the volatility is like.3% >> interestbearing stable coin, if you will. It stays at $100, but it pays off like 11 and a half% yield, but the the yield goes up and down. >> Yeah. But that that uh price is dependent on Stretch buying that 2,000 Bitcoin every week, right? Like which is a bet that you're making and like Stretch obviously has other mechanisms in place where they maintain their price. So in any kind of structure like this where there's some risk that can be uh be hedged away by tunching it, right?

So you can have a senior secured tanch, you can have like a junior tanch, you can have some equity first loss by who by like whichever instrument issuer is going and building that product on top of stretch. We have uh done similar products. We have like a tokenized tranch version of our uh bitcoin back lending book which we announced earlier this year with galaxy. Um so we have some experience there. I think there's a lot of interest that we uh like for people to invest in this while hedging the risk away with a trans structure. Yeah, last thing for you from my side when you're thinking about kind of the evolution of behavior of your clients, right? Obviously, a lot of them have probably been been with you for a while since last cycle. You know, seeing this last six months of kind of downside, how

much skittishness did you see? How much uh kind of rebuilding do you need to do of the loan book as we kind of resurface here? You know, kind of moving higher the last couple weeks. How does the client behavior, how erratic is the behavior? Yeah, great question. There's two kinds of clients. There's clients that that borrow uh at Bitcoin 120 when 120 obviously it's a local maximum or they'll go higher than that and clients that borrow at like 60 65, right? When that's the local minimum. Uh the client that borrows at 120 is typically someone that well it's two kinds. There's people that understand margin call stuff and have enough buffer to maintain that and have a long-term view and there's others that just do it opportunistically and that demand goes away at 6065. The

clients who borrow low are actually the really smart ones because they understand exactly how this works and they're going to do this for a long time and keep adding to their positions. All our loans are lines of credit so they can just keep adding to it and keep uh expanding their borrow. Uh now we also have collar loans where people have no margin callation. So that's actually a great use case for people who borrow higher because they're not going to be in any kind of detriment if Bitcoin does drop. Um there is a restructuring of the kinds of users. Obviously there's an evergreen user base. We do tons of loans every day. But there is a restructuring of like who's borrowing and who was borrowing last year. I think a lot of the treasuries are some of the biggest borrowers right now. Um the miners are

less so because a lot of the miners are going into AIHPC and are actually looking to get rid of their Bitcoin this year. Many have plans to get rid of it by the end of the year or at certain price targets. So at the institutional side, there's definitely a big change in who's borrowing. On the individual side, there is an expansion. people understand that you can do stuff with your Bitcoin now and people have very specific use cases. So our goal is to go to that use case whether that's real estate, whether that's uh investing in some kind of business, whether that's depreciating taxes, whether like whatever that is, you can combine credit with some other construct to get to that goal.

>> Man, what's one of the craziest stories of somebody using Arch to borrow against their Bitcoin to finance something big like I don't know, Knicks game courtside tickets or like I can give you >> a rock for their wife or something? I can give you bigger. Um, we we so we financed a private racetrack in West Palm Beach. We financed a Hollywood movie that's coming out soon, like like a bigname producer, uh, who's been our client for a long time. We financed a sailing business in the Turks and Caos. We financed so many coffee shops, massive real estate purchases, um, like everything uh, that you can think of people use. And in fact, we learned so much from them because there's so many use cases they have and they understand their financial side better than anyone else. all our job is to come and help

them out. But there's so many use cases. We have people that are creating use cases from our perpetual income product that we didn't realize. I learn so much from people every day like especially our clients because we may think of things in one direction and we're obviously like set in like offering our products and offering it to masses, but there's so many specific use cases that they come up with using that. It's it's just incredible to see. what's the next most desirable asset to to back as collateral to back some of these loans?

>> Uh it depends on if it's for retail or institutions for institutions. There's a lot of interest in uh in the commodities world. So as commodities go on chain, gold is a great example. We're launching that pretty soon. Um for prop traders um you know instead of moving your gold across different custodians around the world, you can just like have a tokenized version and you can trade with that. Um real estate I think is like still far off. Uh tokenized uh stocks etc. Yes. Um there's already versions of tokenized stretch people invest in as well. >> Um then there's other assets as like you know e soul are I would say primarily onchain less uh C5 we do offer them.

There's XRP there's um Canton is a new one that's more institutional as well where it's more like prime counterparties borrowing on collar loans not traditional loans. So there's like a whole variance of what people look for. For mass retail I would say it still is Bitcoin. I think more so now a lot of those people have had their ETH and soul wiped out or they're not moving. They've gotten out of it and they're realizing the true like store of value nature of Bitcoin versus the speculative nature of everything else. And we truly believe in like the true pristineess of Bitcoin and I think personally I only hold Bitcoin.

>> Is there man is there demand for Zcash? Like there's not much of an onchain landscape. It feels like Bitcoin. >> This guy loves Zcash. He bought the top. I mean, if you're a trader of Zcash, if you're like spec, I don't know. Like, it's it's not interesting enough for us to offer. Um, >> what about uranium? Sorry. Go ahead. >> This guy bought the top on uranium. >> I don't know. Stuff that we offer is it's it's stuff that's highly liquid, stuff that's very high market cap, and stuff that we can offer at scale. Uh, we obviously have to manage our book very conservatively, and we do.

And on things that are like maybe not Bitcoin, the LTVs are >> it shows they're much lower than they are. And uh most of our book is Bitcoin and I think I think it'll continue to be. >> Makes sense. >> Yeah. What kind of rate can you give to a young, you know, buck who wants to help you promote your business here? Size. We have some decent size. I think we come in there. Give my boy a raise and give me a good rate. throw you on. We'll throw you on the ticker bar. Hamu, thanks for joining, man.

>> No, I'll I'll tell you the rate. So, right now we're at 8.49 um as the lowest rate. Um you can expect a whole couple points lower tomorrow. >> Yeah. Wow. >> So, you you Yeah, you can. It'll be the cheapest rates in the market by far. >> Incredible. You know, on like six fig size, seven fig size. >> Talk to us. >> There we go. The monsoon. >> Thanks for coming on. Thanks. >> It was a pleasure to have you to have you, man. Give my boy a raise. All right. All right, guys. >> One more >> one more guest. We've got something that just came out here. We've been talking about this Kelp Dow Defi happening with Layer Zero all day uh with different guests and apparently some news just came out from Kelp. Why don't we just

pull it up on the screen? I think something's happened. >> Oh yeah, Kelp has made an announcement. After all of what's happened over the last couple of days in the past weeks, it looks like Kelp is making the move to Chainlink CCIP to improve their crosschain security. Following what happened yesterday from Brian's uh post as well as the further kind of developments in these lawsuits, it's clear that Kelp is now looking to take their security quite seriously. They are pushing towards chain link CCIP in what we would expect to be a transition across the board for a lot of teams wanting to take their security very seriously. Nothing against layer zero or other crosschain teams. There is there

is a history of exploits and hacks in this specific sector. Uh there is one team chain link here that is notoriously been very safe and secure and I expect more and more of these teams to transition over. >> It's it's tough to say nothing against layer zero. I mean, in Kelpdow's tweet, they do say from the April 18th incident, it is clear that Layer Zero's own infrastructure was exploited, resulting in $300 million in losses across DeFi. Ladies and gentlemen, we got one more guest for you here at the tokenized Capital Summit in Miami Beach. Thank you for being with us. We will see you guys in just a second. One more guest. Open Eden, baby girl. Let's get it. Um and eventually hopefully those those uh will

we can sort of stop running on the traditional books and then switch over uh purely to a digital onchain recordeping system and that should theoretically drive a lot of the costs down but make no mistake that is you know 5 10 years out in the future and I've been you know I can tell you I've been in this space for about 7 years now and every year I think man this is going to be the year where everything explodes and it it's a slow burn and um and that's because you know as a as an institution like street we need to take thoughtful steps and make sure that we're doing things in a trustworthy way that we that we um we deliver products that investors can believe in uh that they can value. Um and so that we're not, you know, shooting from the hip and

and and we don't necessarily need to be first. Uh we want to be u an innovator and we want to make sure that we meet the demand of investors, but we want to do so in a responsible and safe way. >> Sure. >> Yeah. Sam, man, I know you're busy. It's going to be a crazy week. Thanks for spending some time with us today. It's been a great event. I know I know your panel was great as well. keep fighting the good fight. Bringing the clients on chain man. >> Any any closing thoughts or bold predictions before we let you go? >> Um I I you know I I think the I would love to see um more tokenized assets come on chain for sure. I think that's I think this year would really be the year of tokenized um uh equities and tokenized funds. Um and it can happen in

multiple ways. So it's not there's just one answer to everything. I think that's often what people think is okay there's only gonna be one way to tokenize. I think we'll see this year, for example, the DTC under their SEC no action letter, they're going to start tokenizing the uh products that are in their depository starting in July. So, that's going to be one mode of tokenization. I think that's really attractive for a lot of uh institutional investors um because they already have those relationships and holding those entitlements in different ways. And then we're going to see other thirdparty platforms. You'll see some of the trading venues um start to issue tokenized versions of uh underlying ass.

>> All righty, guys. Welcome back to the Capitol Summit here in Miami Beach with our friends 07 Labs in Kaledan. We've got Nathan from Open Eden, the head of partnerships, which if you read between lines, that really means putting a suit on and smoozing the institutions. That is what's happening here in Miami. I'm not sure if you'll agree with that, but Nathan, good to have you. >> Good to good to be here. Yeah, I'm going to flip into a t-shirt tomorrow, so I got the other crowd, too. But the institutions for today, boss man. Thanks for the institutions. Nathan, what um what is your background to get into this role with Open Eden? How did you find yourself in this lovely industry that we call digital assets?

>> Yeah, I mean high level I got in in 2017. A personal level made a bunch of money, lost a bunch of money just like everyone else did. >> Yeah. >> Um really followed it closely on a personal level from 2018 2019. Knew that it wasn't going anywhere. These rails were going to get built. Um I actually have a real estate development asset management background. So I was more interested in how that was going to work. Needless to say, that's gonna still a ways out. But >> um joined DCG in 2021 and uh >> I got to work with some pretty interesting people over there. You know, they were the large they had the mo the most portfolio companies in crypto at the time.

>> You know, owned Gayscale, all these we used to run this conference, you know, had all the other subsidiaries and uh kind of hit the ground running, learned a lot about RWA, just a bunch of loan NFTTS loans that don't work. But uh now here at Open Eden moving forward um you know we're really focused on bringing regulated institutional products on chain being the issuer issuing the behalf of others. Um and so I lead the American region for open eden. >> Beautiful. And so what kind of companies are you partnering with at open eden? I take primarily allocators institutions is the goal. But what what are you looking for as you get a little bit more specific with the kind of company that belongs in the open eden ecosystem?

>> Yeah I mean I think so it's kind of twopronged right. First, we look for like good partners to bring assets on chain with. So, BNY is our flagship um partner. They manage our our tokenized T- bill fund. Um great partners, very forward thinking bank. Um and then as we kind of think about other asset managers, you know, we're working a few things down the road there, but we're we're more specifically uh focused on what we're going to do with that with these issuances once we bring them on chain. So, um today we have three other products live. USDO which is a DeFi proposal stable coin, Prism, which is a multistrat token backed by Falcon X.

It's trading our Monarch asset management. And then we we're launching high yield bond, which is another BNY wrapped bond fund. But to answer your question, we are looking specifically for people that use and operate capital on chain. Um, more and more money is coming without a doubt. So, we're just trying to bring the highest quality products available to them. >> Yeah, man. I mean, I think people want to tokenize all different types of assets. Now, we've heard CLOS's, T bills, equities, uh, long duration bonds, all the way to, uh, private credit and kind of anything in between. You know, I'm curious kind of what you think Open Eden is doing better than other players in the space, right? Like there's not really a winner. There's a lot of horses in the race. What is separating Open Eden from kind of the broader tokenization platform push? How

do you guys plan to kind of leverage your strengths to keep growing? >> Yeah, that's a good question. I think first and foremost we really focus on usable composability. Fancy way of saying we just want to make sure whatever we're building connecting to is actually useful to our clients. So you know as opposed to um use USDO as an example we have the was the first yield bearing stable coin available on Binance stack. So you could post it as collateral do your same trading operations earn treasury yield while just doing your exact same you know operations on Binance. now where we have that same program available on MEXC, Kcoin, some some other uh centralized exchanges as well. We are working with OTC desk. So it's also USDO is um available with Galaxy, Falcon X, STS as a form of collateral um thinking of some

unique ways to provide instant liquidity through these desks. Okay. So as opposed to just saying hey we got yield bearing stable like come use it. Um, yeah, there's there's a lot of uh there's a lot of uncertainty of, >> okay, cool, but this gives me interest, but what happen if T+1? What happens if we go into a long weekend and October 10th happens? Um, we're trying to solve all those problems. So, we think we do a good job of not spraying out a bunch of different products and hoping things work or just being the backseat technology provider like we really back and distribute our products as opposed to being just a pure issuer who just, you know, tries to kind of stay hands off.

>> Yeah. And so once uh when you're talking about making these products useful to your customers, obviously there's kind of the off-chain yield component. If you can increase yield, you don't add any risk. That's going to become more useful. But then there's the onchain components of composing them with DeFi. >> What what is most appealing about that second part? Once you start getting, you know, what composable environments could look like, you start lending, borrowing, you start, you know, looping, staking. We've kind of heard a mixed bag here of opinions in terms of, you know, are institutions really going to loop? Is that something that they're really interested in all the way through to yeah like they they are very very excited about it uh from your clients what are you hearing on the ground >> I think so yeah you probably heard a lot today I think very simply put how I

would how I would think about it is why would you bring something on chain if you can do the exact same thing offchain right so unique things that you can do let's use high yield bonds as an example is a short duration high yield bond fund that yields around 7.2% 2% APY, it's T+4. So now when you think about looping it, which is just basically getting leverage on something, you can still understand kind of the risk adjusted returns of what that's going to look like and you know the traders can map that out. So we think that we do a better job of actually bringing things onchain that people can um tangibly understand and be able to underwrite um as opposed to just bringing on things that onchain that just sound good but have a t plus you know 30 redemption window and then you loop it four times

you're like where's my money? So yeah, we really we really try to think about um what the market needs right now. With Treasury rates as down as they are, we think the short duration bond price is pretty attractive. >> Yeah, the market needs Bitcoin to go up higher. That's what the market >> I We all do. You the three of us here need Bitcoin to go. >> The three of us do. That's for sure. >> Couldn't hurt. >> Maybe some other altcoins. I don't know. >> Yo, Hyperlid had itself a day today, man. I'll tell you that. um talk to us about some of the partnerships that you've successfully, you know, helped create for Open Eden, what those look like, how those sales cycles went, you know, kind of any key learnings there.

>> Yeah. So, the partnership title is pretty vague, right? So, I think I think where we I really try to I fit in uniquely in the company as opposed to the rest of the company is I'm in New York. The rest of the company's in APEC region. So, they're hyperconnected into you know, Binance was an early investor. We've got like a lot of the funds out there that a lot of the people here don't know but all the capital flow still comes here to the state. So my goal is to work with all the institutions across the city across across the um the US and you know specific names. We're very close to Falcon X. We launched our prism product with them which we're very proud of. Um technically not Falcon X but they're they're primarily owned by Falcon X but um working with uh people that are kind

of frontiering the space in unique ways. you see all these announcements going out here today, but um things we it's probably worth discussing. You know, we were the first ones who kind of thought of and launched a multistrat token, which is a fancy way of saying a token wrapped with a bunch of different underlying strategies because we kind of saw the basis trade dying. Athena was starting to lose a bunch of TVL. Like why don't you just have a token that has four different trading strategies underneath it and people can kind of underwrite it and then have the transparency on chain where they can actually see what's like, you know, being being held. So, >> um I'm really focused on like >> thinking about what's going to scale and that's what my focus is aside from just, you know, going out and getting TVL and

trying to make the token go. >> Yeah, man. New York's where it's happening. >> Yeah, >> for sure. >> So, as you guys scale, um and you're thinking about tokenization as a whole, which feels like, you know, we're in this tokenization super cycle. We're just getting started. Um there's several players, we've seen how other you know, both onchain and you know, just classical business uh scales. uh typically with this power law, right, where you have a couple of winners take most of the market share and then everyone kind of else, you know, there's some some smaller piece of the pie that everyone else shares. Um do you think that tokenization is going to follow a similar path? Do you think there's going to be win or take most maybe, you know, 65% of the market, next guy gets maybe 20 25% of the market and then maybe

there's a few more that share, you know, 10 to 15%. >> Yeah, it's a good question. I think kind of depends what specifically we're talking about, but I I have this unique, you know, thesis now where you either have to have the distribution where you need to be an exchange or, you know, like a Coinbase, Binance, Robin Hood, or you need to be a banker, an asset manager because all these guys are going to start doing things in the house. And that might sound a little scary to open Eden, but where we kind of fit into the gap there is helping scale this now because they take so long to move obviously. Um, so to so I do think specifically when you're talking about stable coins, I think USDC and Tether will start to lose market share relative to their peers just because you can get

yield behind your stable coins. Why would you not want USYC from Circle and because it's got a couple other, you know, functionality. Um, you know, it's not as liquid. It's got it's not as as composable yet, but like all that's coming and so I think there will be a lot of winners across different space. I don't think all the chains are going to win. And I think all that needs to go away and these guys need to get less funded. But I do think that like there's going to be a lot of winners from the institutional side. >> Yeah. Nathan, thank you for joining us. I know it's been a short session. This is a five hour marathon today and you've wrapped us up. Just closing thoughts on Miami on consensus and kind of what you're seeing in this broader shift in how the industry has evolved since you

entered in 2017, right? Like I mean this is look at us. >> This is great. I mean, look, I just just to close it out. Appreciate you guys having me here. I know you guys are probably exhausted, but >> we're chilling. >> Yeah, we uh my first consensus was 2022 when DCG still owned CoinDesk and it was insane. Like there was the the amount of people that were there like the different categories like the metaverse, NFTts, like all this nonsense. And now you see all the people in the suits. I'm even wearing this today. I think it's really come a long way. And um sadly, I think there's going to be a lot less speculative tokens that people can earn on. But I do think that the industry is moving forward. These businesses are going to grow and um you there's going to be a lot of new innovation in the

space. So we're really looking forward to it here at Open Eden. >> Somehow we're still early again. That happens every bare market. >> Every bare market you get early again. >> We're always early. We're always early. I think you know I I I don't even like to say that anymore is I feel like this is like drastically drastically evolved over the past few years. But yeah, seems like we're I don't know. We just crossed 80 again. So we're coming back. >> We're also just working on things that take a lot more time. And so it's just, you know, it's early in the sense that, you know, this next thing is going to take a lot longer to play out, but it feels a lot bigger. We're working on things that are bigger, might move a little bit slower, but ultimately still very valant effort.

>> Fits your speed there. Um, >> Nathan, thanks for coming on. Pleasure. >> We'll see you next time. >> Appreciate it, guys. Good luck today. Good luck conference. >> That wraps up the Capital Summit here two days in a row. Tokenized Capital Summit, then Kaledan and 071 Labs had us out here today. We had tons of great conversations starting with the A16Z crypto raise all the way through here with Nathan from Open Eden. Covered a lot of ground. There's been so many announcements today to catch up on as well. As always guys, we will be live from the Empire State Building. The tokenization tower back very soon. Our next live show will be in Bermuda next Tuesday. Up until then, you you you'll have a ton of content on all of our

socials from this week, the last two days, and more, guys. We've got a lot more coming for you. Then we are going to put the shirts and the suits back on in Bermuda, sip of pinina colada, and talk a lot more about finance at a larger scale. >> You know, the thing they do in Bermuda is they wear the suit on top and then they wear the bathing suit shorts, I guess. >> All right, that's Rob's specialty. >> That is my specialty. Uh we'll be coming at you guys in the bathing suits and suits. >> High socks. High socks. the high socks, the bathing suits, and the suits on top in Bermuda. Guys, don't forget it. Uh, closing out the Capital Summit.

>> Thank you guys. Thanks to Kaladan, to 07 071 Labs, everyone else who had us out, >> all of our guests, all of everyone watching behind the show, the entire crew. Shout out to Broadick for being here. >> Give the crew some love. Leo, >> let's go, man. >> Hero, Alex, everyone behind the scenes. Guys, it's been it's been a journey. You said five hours cuz Andy took a nap halfway through the show, but we've been live for six and a half hours today. We were live for seven hours yesterday. >> So, it's been an absolute journey. >> We will see you guys in exactly one week live from Bermuda. Take it easy till then. We'll see you soon. Mahalo.