🚨LIVE: Bull Market Continues! ZEC ETF Today?! Grayscale's Zach Pandl, Alex Cutler & Haonan Li Join

Transcript

[music] [music] [music] [music] 17 floor. >> [music] [music] >> We'll see you around the timeline.

Feels good to be back. >> I think The Rollup is one of the [music] most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts [music] at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library as we speak. >> Potentially multi-chain deployments. We are [music] at the connect day one here. I'm guessing from base. [music] [music] [music] [music]

Heat. Heat. N. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity,

the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. >> I'm so bullish. And he's bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

>> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. [music] [music] Heat. [music] >> [music] [music]

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>> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. GM GMG GM. Our manaton is dialed on the sounds. We got the whole team cranking. We're here. We are here. We've been here every single day through the bear, the pre-bull. We're going to be here every single day going forward. We get after it for you guys. Welcome August 25th.

It's Tuesday. We're rocking out with you guys. I'm here in Rollup headquarters south in sunny South Florida. And the bull market continues today. Today, today is the day of the Zcash ETF. And we got the man, the myth himself, Grayscale. Zack Pandle going to be talking to us about the Zcash ETF from Gayscale. Also, big announcement from Aerrrome yesterday on tokenized stocks out of Coinbase. These guys are the primary venue to trade tokenized stocks from Coinbase. We're going to be talking to Alex Cutler of Aerodrome about this as well. Fantastic show as always for you guys as always. Uh, also shout out to Plume. These guys sponsor rollup

headquarters north up in New York City. We got a couple members of the team out there in uh, the Empire State Building today. So, we are absolutely rocking and rolling with you guys. Uh, hit us up in the chat. Are you a Zver? I like this. I'm seeing all kinds of bull market abbreviations and and lingo here. Uh, we got some new names in the chat, too. NFT Art World, good to see you. TP Sauce is a big Zcash bull. We appreciate you guys rocking with us. We are Zelvers in Z Hyper Liquid, Z Hyper, and uh >> a couple others uh part of that as well.

So, we are absolutely absolutely moving and grooving today. Uh couldn't do it without you guys. Absolute pleasure to be with you and uh we're going to be with you guys every day. The bull market continues. So, uh, we're going to get into today's show. Absolute tremendous show as always. Here's the today's topics. You guys can see as always, markets and weather. Uh, brought to you from Florida today. And then, uh, we're going to get into it. Dro Labs, you guys know him as Alex Cutler from Aerodrome. Gayscale's head of research. That's Zack Pandle. And then we've got Codex's CEO going to talk to us about stable coins.

And that is Han Lee. So, can't uh can't can't talk about it enough. I mean, I'm excited. Should be a great show. Uh we are fresh off a monster rip. Uh plenty happening in the macro world and uh as always, plenty happening in the digital assets world as well. You guys know that we've got uh we've got a portfolio construction thesis that we're going to be talking about uh today and always on today's show. Uh we're going to be sharing that with you guys so that you have uh the right thesis for outperformance. That's where we're at these days and that is what we're going to stick to. And so let's get into it.

We have a tremendous show for you guys as always. Let's go ahead and kick it off. Uh first let me tell you guys about dinari. Dinari is our tokenized [screaming and cheering] equities partner and we know that tokenized equities are coming in force. Hundred trillion dollar asset class. Uh so many uh providers are now entering this market. uh which is exciting to see because ultimately this is going to be competition at the highest level for the highest asset classes and uh we're going to see what all of these guys are made of. So big shout out to dinari uh helping out the tokenized equities world.

Bit cloudy, 88 degrees and uh we're going to see a little bit more uh sun as we round out the summer. They're calling it the bull market summer, the golden summer and the golden cycle. Uh, and we're going to continue to see as this rages on, we know that there's a confluence of factors here, the macro liquidity environment, the legitimization of the crypto industry, among other factors, and we're going to continue and provide you guys with everything that you need to know to outperform in this market. Let's keep it chugging along uh as well with FRA. FRA is our stablecoin partner for the show and uh these guys are open, stable and borderless helping you guys

uh with lines of credit on chain. And so if you're a provider, if you're a partner and uh you're looking for some access to stable coins, maybe you're a payments business or a neo bank business and you hold a lot of deposits, you have a lot of cash, I'm sure you're thinking about stable coins, forex is one of the few stable coins that the industry treats as money. Don't need to swap out. Can sit in them. It's Genius compatible and uh they are front running the Genius Act and all the rules that are coming out of it. They're ahead of the curve there. We've got our stable coin stabled up segment a little bit later this week.

Markets powered by Zama. Uh little pullback. You know, this is attributable to a couple different factors. I mean, Stanley Drunken Miller, which was the boss of both Treasury Secretary Bessett and Fed Chairman Wars, came out and was kind of against uh Bessant's policies of these Treasury buybacks. I think that could be why we're seeing this. H we'll see. Tell me what you guys think in the uh in the chat. Do you think we're going to continue and uh you know, we're gonna we're gonna see this thing rage on? It feels like the train has left the station. Honestly, this might be the pullback that everyone's been waiting for. I think a

lot of people were sidelined and now uh you know, they're coming in and they're looking at these opportunities here and uh they're realizing that dips are for buying. So, there's a couple different factors that we're going to be tracking. Obviously, you guys know our portfolio construction thesis is that of the barbell. We've got hard assets on one side and we've got the revenue meta on the other side. Hard assets being uh those assets with monetary premium scarce assets uh Bitcoin, Zcash, gold uh which you can now trade on these purpose exchanges on chain as well as maybe a little bit of Ethereum in there. I was chatting with my clinker this morning about the correct portfolio construction thesis and distribution

and I came up with something like uh 40% Bitcoin, 40% Zcash, 10% gold, 10% ETH. I think that's maybe a little bit underweight ETH, but that's kind of what I'm looking at on the monetary premium side of things. And then on the other side, the revenue assets, the revenue meta bucket. We've got, I mean, several assets that fit the bill and increasingly more assets that are trying to join that party. Uh, several on this list here. Near and chain link obviously uh Hyperlid Lighter and VVV, Venice are all leading the charge on the revenue bucket as well. Aer Drrome fits into that thesis. Um, Etherfi, Athena, Sky, Sky and Athena being part of the stablecoin buildout

also fit the revenue meta and uh, Akos on the AI side I was looking into because they have a program that basically turns compute into value acrruel. Uh, and then you've got a couple others uh, fake world assets also a little bit smaller of a market cap but also fits that revenue thesis. And so there's several several coins that you can put into this revenue meta. you know, the exact dispersement of tokens across the revenue bucket is, you know, definitely up uh to interpretation, but this is the way that we're seeing these things play out. This bifurcation, you've got an institutional bid on hard assets as a result of accommodative monetary policy and the liquidity buybacks that Bessant is signaling in

the bond market. ultimately that will find its way into digital assets specifically digital assets with monetary premium. Bitcoin, Zcash, gold, ETH. On the other side, uh the revenue meta we do believe is in a position where you know these companies onchain businesses will start to compete with equities and some of the fastest growing companies are available uh and acrewing value to their tokens. So this is what we're watching. This is the barbell. This is a monetary premium and the revenue meta. And you know, there's plenty to uh discuss within each of these segments. As always, markets powered by Zama. These guys leading on the privacy side of things, which we're

going to be talking a little bit more about today with Zack Pandle as we get into the conversation around Zcash and how the AI surveillance is continuing. Zcash is the answer to the AI surveillance buildout. Uh before we get into our news and our headlines guys, I want to tell you about our AI partner. You see them on this chart. You guys know them well. It's Near. Okay, Near is part of the revenue meta as well as the AI and priv privacy narratives. We believe that within this broad revenue meta, this broad legitimization of the industry, we're going to continue to see segmentation and a maturity of this market as it develops. uh we think that

is going to acrue in a variety of segments. AI and privacy being a primary benefactor of them. Stable coins another segment. Uh perpetual another segment from there. Uh and so we're going to continue to discuss this, but Near is at the heart of this buildout that we're continuing to see. Guys, we've got some headlines. Uh we're going to see some uh some funny ones and then we're going to get get into some more serious ones before we bring up our first guest. And so we're going to we're going to get into it. Let's go ahead. Michael Sailor is now up about$4 billion dollars. This guy is now just trolling. He's This guy is like the biggest troll. So, we're going to go ahead watch this video, have a little laugh, and see what's going on.

>> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Yeah, Wow is right. I mean, what is going on here? I mean, I'll tell you exactly what's going on. It's Michael Sailor up $4 billion after everyone called him out for crushing the industry. We weren't going to go higher until Michael Sailor got liquidated.

Well, he didn't get liquidated, but he did capitulate a little bit. He sold a bit of his Bitcoin position at the lows. Shred up the market a little bit. I mean, that's for sure. I think everyone sort of overcoming the Michael Sailor FUD was an important bottom formation. Obviously, it wasn't what, you know, sent us exploding off the lows, but it did help solidify that, you know, this is not a systemic risk to the industry. This guy's got enough cash. His stretch product is pretty much allowed to exist in the eyes of the market and it's not going to take things down with it. And so, Michael Sailor is now celebrating that he's got an unrealized profit here.

Uh he's rebounding and uh man this is just uh I think we're gonna see a lot more of this and then we're gonna see a lot more Michael Sailor troll bull bullposting uh AI generated videos. So that's my take on that. Let's keep going. Uh we want to cover some more of these headlines. Uh obviously you guys know about this Zcash ETF that went live. Uh tell me what you guys think about this headline, this tweet. Barry Silbert uh launched this Zcash uh trust quite a while ago.

Now he's launching this ETF. And so this was a very similar construction of some of his other trusts. This was before there was broad SEC uh approval in order for um you know this uh ETF uh structure to go live. the the construction of these asset uh the these assets that someone could get exposure to on the public markets was in the form of a trust and it had very very uh strict redemption rules. It was much more difficult to redeem and sell versus an ETF. And so now what's going on because there is much friendlier ETF rules out of the SEC uh Barry has converted a lot of these trust products into ETFs. He

did this with Bitcoin and now he's doing it with Zcash. And so this is kind of what we're seeing. Um and and and the question that we have is how will the Zcash ETF react? Uh is this something that we think is going to, you know, react similarly to the Bitcoin one where, you know, people were locked into this trust. They ended up being up so much because they couldn't redeem. Now they have a liquidity venue. you know, if they have so much that they can liquidate and still be kind of playing with house money, then we could see an initial, you know, shock to the Zcash market as a result of, you know, people exiting those positions that they've been locked into for a long time now with this ETF venue. Um, or do we think

the demand is going to be so high from outside buyers that this is going to absorb all of that latent capital and ultimately send the market higher? I don't know, but I want to hear from you guys. Uh, I want to hear about whether or not you guys think the ETF is going to be a bullish event. And so, tell me in the chat what you guys think. And then we're going to hear from Grayscale, uh, Zack Pandle, uh, on what his expectations for the Zcash ETF are. And so, this is, you know, a pending thesis. We're going to see how it plays out. Uh, I think the Zcash ETF is live as of our show right now. Um, and so Zcash did retrace a little bit. Uh it is holding that 800 level which is good to see and

uh you know the market broadly retraced a little bit. Hyperlid looks good pushing all-time highs. Fake world assets also looks good. So we're keeping track. We're keeping track. Uh Buzzards Bay says ETF is bullish but you know the saying sell the news event. So we're going to see uh it all depends on the flows and I think we're going to keep close eye on the flows over the next couple of days. Um so let's keep going. Uh, Hyperlquid Strategies is t-wapping again for the first time since June 21st. Um, Andy, I see you in the chat. Thank you for using the full name. Dubious Rational, you guys rock.

Great show every time. Wow. Cheers to you, Dubious. Cheersing you with a little coffee here. And Bob Diamond is so back. And so we are finally getting hyperlquid strategies, smashing the ATM, using it to t-wop hype, and then ultimately uh have that hype. Hype goes up, they slam the ATM again. And so this is what we're we're doing. Uh the digital asset treasuries are back. There's very very few that executed this perfectly. got to say strategy and Michael Sailor actually did relatively well given the broad market conditions but you got to give it up for Joseph Shalom uh Joe Luben Tom Lee uh on the ETH side and then uh Bob Diamond and David Sheamus on the

hyperlquid side could not have done a better job buying all the way through the lows buying all the way to the bottom averaging down average cost entry you know just sweeping the lows and now Hyperlid goes up ETH goes up these guys are able to smash the ATM, right? Sell some shares, use that cash from selling those shares to go and buy the asset back, take more uh ownership of the network. And that's exactly what we're seeing hyperlquid strategies and the Ethereum treasury companies doing. And so uh this is uh this is the reality. Hyperlid strategies and ETH treasury companies are back in profit.

Their MNAVs are back above one. and they are doing the same strategy that we always knew that they would be doing, which is slamming the ATM and recycling those profits back into the underlying asset uh that we all know and love. So, big shout out Hyperlquid Strategies. I've still got my position. Got a screenshot from Andy just a little while ago. I think he is still in his position as well. Big shout out to Andy for sticking with it through the lows. I mean, hell of a draw down there. Uh but uh you know we are so back. Okay, let's keep going. Uh got a couple more tweets before we uh before we move into our first guest, which is going to be Alex Cutler from Aer Drrome. Uh he's getting

ready in the back. We're going to bring him up in just a moment or two. But I wanted to show you guys this is exactly what the portfolio construction needs. Okay, it needs analytics and it needs metrics around which tokens are acrewing value to their token. Okay, Alex Cutler, who's going to join us in a moment, is an expert on this. And we know that there's a hard asset scarce money thesis on the one side of the barbell, right? And this is specifically benefiting from the accommodative monetary policy as the Treasury Secretary uh and the Fed turn on the money printer. We know that Bitcoin, Zcash, Gold are going to do extremely well, but we don't want to just stop there. There are onchain

businesses that are poised to do extraordinarily well on the other side of the barbell according to the fundamentals, okay? And it's the companies that show up in this chart. This one's from DeFi Llama. Great data from DeFi Lama as always. And this is measuring holders revenue, okay? And this is dominated by Hyperlid, which you can see on the left side of this, right, which is the big blue square there. And then you've got some more here, right? You've got pump, you've got aerod drrome that round out the top three, and then you've got some smaller squares, but this is the revenue meta. This is the market map of the other side of the barbell. Okay, these are companies, onchain businesses with product market fit, generating revenue, and driving that value into the token. Okay, what is

the the the thesis here? What is the valuation heristic? Okay, well, got to have revenue. got to be driving that revenue to the token and then got to have more value to the token than emissions unlocks or incentives that are flowing out of the token. We've got to offset any of the expense side and we've got to overcome that with value and revenue flowing into the token. And what I love about this is, you know, typically and traditionally that the this has been done the value acrruel has been done with buybacks and that's okay.

And the reason for that is because there just hasn't really been a regulatory framework that gives us clearance for value acrruel that isn't buybacks. Uh there was securities laws that implicated direct dividends. We know Gendler is now out but a lot of companies adopted the buyback model model in his place right according to the rules that we had at the time. Now the regime is shifting. Now we're in a friendlier regulatory environment that is okay with a little bit more experimentation. And so we're seeing some new models and I I'm seeing Sky. If we flip back to the chart here, Skye's on here. I know EtherFi is on here. I know there are more mechanisms that are being experimented with that we haven't

seen and are not just pure vanilla buybacks. And that's what I think is very exciting is that we're getting financial experimentation. These are the onchain businesses that are generating revenue and passing it back to the token. And we know this because this is not just revenue. This is holders revenue, okay? And this is value acred to the token. I' I'd actually like to dive into the mechanism or the metric of holders revenue a little bit deeper because I don't know exactly how it's calculated, but we will dive in and we will get a better understanding of how these things are calculated. Uh and ultimately this is the other side of the barbell. And the reason being is that if we do get this bull steepening of the bond curve, this

liquidity environment becomes extremely accommodative. They're going to run the economy hot. That's what they're attempting to do. We don't know if it's going to work just yet, but if we do get cooperation from Wars and the Fed, they're going to run the economy hot. And that means high inflation. That means equities do well. And it means hard money does well as people try to curb that inflation. but also benefit from owning assets, okay, equities and hard money alike. And so it makes sense, right, to, you know, have exposure, at least in my mind, I'm going to have exposure to both sides of this barbell because I know both of these are going to do well. We don't know exactly which one is going to outperform. And so we can put together this basket of assets that are in a position to do extraordinarily well. No matter what is

happening, no matter what is outperforming, these things will ultimately leapfrog and go handinand together as the bull market continues. And so this is what I'm extremely excited about from a portfolio construction thesis perspective. These are the assets that I'm looking at on the revenue meta side of the barbell. On the other side, we know it's hard money, scarce assets, Bitcoin, Zcash, gold, and ETH. Let's keep going. Uh we've got a couple more. Why don't we do a quick uh daily equity and then we'll get into uh that'll set us up nicely for Alex Cutler of Aerad Drrome. First, let me tell you guys about 1 in. These guys are in a position to uh do extraordinarily well as a result of the RWA buildout as a

liquidity aggregator in a shared liquidity protocol. 1-inch Aqua is their new product and uh this is technology that's compatible with essentially essentially all kinds of assets, right? And so typically what we've seen is that you know these liquidity protocols have primarily been used for cryptonative assets, but that's no more. I mean there could be a a time and a point in time in which the trading volume on chain across both centralized exchanges, decentralized exchanges, per spot, AMMs, everything is actually overshadowed by RWAS, including tokenized equities. We saw it happen on hyperlquid. We could see it happen on chain as well.

So, let's keep going. Uh, we've got daily equity coming up next. Let's go ahead play. All right, this is the context for daily equity today and what I think is going to set the stage for the tokenized equities build out going forward. Right, this is a hundred trillion dollar asset class. We know that this has the potential to overshadow crypto trading. This is sort of what, you know, blockchain protocols have been waiting for for years because this is an asset class that is tried and true. It's proven. It's got real fundamentals, but

now we're upgrading the technology, the fintech financial technology that this thing is traded on and it's happening now with tokenization on blockchain rails. And so with the Coinbase announcement of tokenized equities, obviously this is daily equity powered by dinari, Coinbase is entering the game and they're doing so with tokenized equities. And this is something I find extremely compelling because those who are trading this asset class, as long as we get the security principles and the trust principles correct, and that means shareholder rights, governance rights, owning a tokenized share of a company is ex equivalent to owning a a typical traditional equity in a brokerage

account. As long as we can get those material principles right, the trader is going to go where they can get the best price, they can get the best bang for their buck, and you get 247, so it's faster. If it's more affordable to do this trading onchain, we're going to see a mass migration of trading volume from brokerage accounts to onchain AMMs and liquidity protocols. And that's exactly what Eric is talking about in his tweet here. He says, "Bass serves about 32 cents of a fee versus Interactive Brokers. Bass serves about 97 cents versus Interactive Brokers fixed, which means that Bass is serving extremely competitive rates, extremely competitive rates, okay, on tokenized equities onchain. This is going to be flowing

through AMMs like Aerodrome, which we're going to be speaking to in a moment. But the point is that if we can get into a position where we get price discovery for a hundred trillion dollar asset classes uh like equities and this price discovery starts to happen onchain, the entire industry flips on its head because then you end up with the the you know the dog wagging the tail. Right now the dog is you know happening offchain. and it's happening brokerage accounts and it's wagging the tail of the tokenized equities because off-chain brokerages are just so much larger and how that's where price discovery happens. But if that flips, then we're going to get the bulk of trading activity in the largest asset class in the world, the US

equities market, is going to happen onchain on blockchain rails. And that is a massive addressable market for all of these D5 protocols. And we've seen extremely creative use cases that are now just starting to come out and just starting to develop uh onchain as a result of this asset class getting tokenized. So extremely extremely exciting to see. uh we're now seeing price discovery become competitive between base and uh offchain brokerage and uh this is just the beginning. This is still extremely early. So I'm I'm excited to speak with our first guest uh Alex Cutler of Aerodrome on exactly this. Let's go ahead and uh get him ready in the back because I think he's

uh I think he's ready and uh we're going to be talking about this. We can go solo for a moment. We're going to end our daily equity segment with that. and we're gonna get into it. Guys, tell me what you want to hear from our friend Alex Cutler because we're going to bring him in and we're going to bring him up on stage. Let's get into it. Let's get into it because uh guys, Alex Cutler, he's the CEO of Dromos Labs. Okay? And Dromos Labs is the uh the lab uh labs corporation behind Arrow.

Remember Arrow is the combination of Aerodrome and Veladrome. These guys have market dominance on base. Okay. Uh they are the base uh top decentralized exchange. Uh Velum also happens to be the top decentralized exchange at Optimism. Okay. Uh, Bass is one of the leading chains when it comes to trading volume and now they're getting the influx of tokenized equities, right? And so, just remember the thesis as we get Alex ready in the back. Remember the thesis is that the tokenization super cycle continues, right? We're now approaching this hundred trillion dollar asset class of tokenized equities, right? The idea is that that that doesn't just stop there,

right? Once these things are tokenized, they move on chain and the idea is they become productive assets. They become programmable in smart contracts. These assets, the hundred trillion dollars of new value onchain ends up flowing into the DeFi primitives. And these things are totally compatible because these are ERC20 tokens, right? We already have the infrastructure built for cryptonative assets. And we've seen what can happen once we get an a robust RWA and and equity ecosystem available on chain. And we've seen it happen specifically on Hyperlid, right? We've seen how the RWA assets, the trading activities actually flipped cryptonnative assets. And so it's a question now of will that happen

not just on Hyperlquid but broadly across the entire onchain ecosystem. I think it it's certainly possible. Uh I think we see we got Alex ready in the back. So, let's go ahead and bring him up because I want to get his take on this. Uh, and I want to start by congratulating him on, uh, the partnership with Coinbase. Obviously, uh, Aerodrome is, uh, you know, the go-to exchange, the decentralized exchange for Bass, uh, the the leading one in volume there. And so, it just makes sense that now with Coinbase's announcement around tokenized equities, a lot of that trading activity will flow into Aerodrome. Alex, you're on stage now. Welcome back and congratulations, man.

>> Thank you. No, these are uh I mean unbelievably exciting times. I think the last time uh I was on I was up there in the tokenization tower and we were talking about exactly this that we've been building infrastructure for years to build the you know most robust, most robust, most accessible, most um dynamic market that has ever existed in history. And we're going to do that onchain, right? not just with this amazing like assortment of digital assets um that we've seen to date, but by bringing on as you were saying trillion dollar markets in global FX in tokenized stocks um in real world assets and uh making these things fully programmable,

permissionless composable and capturing the network effects. And so we're so excited, right, to be serving as the primary liquidity layer um for Coinbase tokenized stocks. We've been working with them on this for most of this year. So, it's I think really incredible to finally see it uh real and in the market. And I mean, I can just tell you that yeah, I think we're just about at the 24-hour mark right now since these things went live. And the early results here are overwhelming, right? It's it's blown past all expectations that I think we had uh for day one, all the expectations that uh Coinbase had uh for day one. Uh but this really is just the start. I mean, we've

got four assets live today. >> Um we know that already in these first 24 hours, we're delivering uh some of the best execution you can possibly get on these assets uh uh across any spot exchange or any issuer anywhere on chain. And the crazy thing is that we've even seen indications that we are beating the execution that you can get on something like uh IB today right which is the main like resource for um uh many folks trying to access these types of assets and traditional systems all over the world. So that's what we came here to do, right? We came here to build systems, better systems that uh are free of these intermediaries that make the very act of market making uh

totally open and permissionless. And uh I think we're seeing the beginning of of a whole new era here. >> Yeah. And and one of the things that I think we'll get to is how many people are now building on top. And I think that's something that's very exciting because, you know, when you have an equity in a brokerage account, sure, that's great. You get exposure to the asset, you know, the company's got good fundamentals, sure. But making that asset that has strong fundamentals, you know, like a Google or, you know, an Nvidia or one of the assets that Coinbase has tokenized, making that available onchain makes it programmable and it makes it productive. And I think there's all kinds of exciting use cases that people are now starting to think

about, starting to get creative with about, you know, swapping and earning and lending and building on top. What is there anything that you're you're seeing like what give could you give us a sense of what you've seen over the last 24 hours? What did you expect? And and you mentioned, you know, your expectations have been exceeded. What have you seen over the last 24 hours? Yeah, I mean uh I think the first thing is like you know you're right to identify that the future is going to be you know these are basically programmable stocks right and they are composable and we will see play out over the coming months um new and novel things have buil uh people are building on top of it but you can just be excited I think alone in thinking

about the fact that in having these types of assets in permissionless uh AMMs and spot markets you know, you give everybody the opportunity to be Citadel, right? Um, you get every give everyone the opportunity to interact with assets um at 24/7 365, you know, almost anywhere in the world at any given time. And this is like the vision of these onchain systems is to create access to remove these intermediaries to redistribute all the value it creates to all of the participants. And so we're incredibly like excited about that. But I'll give you just one example of something >> y >> uh we saw that uh we're very excited

about and because it was actually happening on Sunday prior to the announcement, right? Um and on Sunday, you know, across AMMs, Airdrome was quietly doing more volume on these top assets, right, than um some of these uh other exchanges and other issuers were doing despite the fact we hadn't even announced it's live, right? And that is because of course Airdum's very great at bootstrapping liquidity and of course that these assets don't look like the versions that we've seen to date. You know, these aren't synthetic, they aren't rappers, they aren't derivatives.

These are one to one, you know, very much the underlying thing with all the beneficial ownership. But the crazy thing is over the weekend we saw millions of volume being traded on tokenized uh Nvidia. Um and we saw a price divergence right between uh the close of the market on Friday and you know where the onchain markets which were basically engaging in the act of price discovery for Nvidia over the weekend and it diverged you know I think somewhere between 1 or 2% u between the market closed price and uh what was happening onchain. Now, why do you think that is? Um, the other assets were basically, you know, Apple, Meta, and

otherwise were pretty close to the market close. But why was Nvidia diverging? Well, Nvidia has earnings coming up this week. >> Yeah. >> So, if you spent your weekend researching, thinking about your own personal thesis on uh those earnings or where the market was going to open Monday, maybe you're willing to go out and buy Nvidia at the the price that is currently trading on chain. Um, and this is the promise of these onchain markets, right? Is that traditional markets, they run at banker's hours, right? They're only open for about a third of the week.

And these onchain markets, they will trade 24/7, 365, and they will give participants the uh ability to basically uh engage in those acts of market making, of price discovery. And we think as the volume continues to grow grow, as the liquidity continues to deepen, this is like something people will be following very closely. Like I would be interested when the markets close on Wednesday and Nvidia um you know goes out and has their earnings call. You should just pull up the chart on a drrome of Nvidia to see how it's trading because that is going to be the venue in which people are going to be speculating on uh those earnings and and things like

that. So that's the future we see and it's incredible that it's already happening and it's also incredible that on day one Airdrome is delivering the best execution you can get on chain for many of these assets and uh some of the highest volumes on them and you know we haven't really even turned on the gas yet so uh it's going to be pretty exciting in the next few weeks. Yeah, it it certainly is. And and I think it's some of the best execution onchain and offchain. Um, which I think honestly caught me by surprise a little bit. I I fully understand the 247 nature of these things, right? The market closes, it's maybe 215 or or less, right? And and so on the weekends after hours onchain

makes complete sense that you're going to, you know, sort of lead price discovery during those hours. But for the execution, the pricing of these assets to actually be more liquid and at more competitive prices even during market hours, I think is was, you know, maybe we would get there one day, but for to do that on day one, I think is extraordinary. And so, you know, given that this is the case, I think a lot of people might be, you know, looking at their brokerage and learning about this and now now realizing, wait, I can go get better execution on chain at this venue. What do you say to those people, the people that are just now discovering Aerodrome? How have you been able to coordinate liquidity such that it is

more liquid and at more competitive prices onchain than some off-chain brokerage venues? >> Yeah. So I mean I think this is the the secret sauce of of airrum and you know [clears throat] has been core to us becoming you know one of the top decentralized exchanges in the world and and taking the sort of dominant position. Um you know AMMs to date right have primarily been self-organizing marketplaces. You're basically connecting together folks who will bring the liquidity. Liquidity is king, right, for any exchange, traditional or otherwise, to people who want to trade those assets. And you are facilitating the exchange of value between those two parties. Um, Aerodrome introduced the idea of a coordinated marketplace. And a coordinated marketplace allows

participants right by adding this group of the token holders who can allocate capital to markets to help bootstrap them even ahead of that demand uh being created. So the great like uh case study we have here which I think is a great teaser for what I think is coming here with Coinbase tokenized stocks is that you know for most of the history of DeFi the top traded um asset has of course been Bitcoin. Um and the venue for that was mainet Ethereum and the asset was WBTC wrap bitcoin and when coinbase came to us uh a few years back and they said hey we are going to launch this uh new version of wrap bitcoin called BTC and

what we need to do right is we need to facilitate uh the growth of a lot of liquidity around this and we think if we build enough liquidity we will give the best execution on bitcoin anywhere on chain and that'll create of course more volume that'll create more fees that will create a growth flywheel. It took us in working with Coinbase here just about one week before Aerodrome and Bass were now the top venue for trading the top digital asset. And that level of dominance has only expanded, right? Aeradrome most weeks now does more volume on Bitcoin than any other um decentralized exchange combined on any network. And that is a claim to fame that we also have around another very

important growth vertical which is tokenized uh uh FX exchange right between EURC USDC we host the single biggest FX market anywhere on chain and most weeks this year right we have done more volume there than than all the other exchanges combined. So I think when people think about what's the advantage here, right, we can attract um liquidity into these new markets, right, around um uh tokenized stocks or any RWA asset. If we've got the best depth on those, that's going to be the venue in which people trade them, right?

Um that's going to be the place uh where if you want to exchange between these things, you participate. um you know you're certainly not going to go somewhere where you're going to lose as much on you know slippage or execution as you might on a traditional brokerage right that's not what we came here on chain to do and so I think what people should be like very excited about is that we've got four of these live today and my expectation would be very very soon we will have a lot more of these and that whether or not you are coming on chain to trade you know amazing new digital assets core DeFi blue chip uh onchain FX or these tokenized stocks, we will be the venue that will give you

the best execution on these assets and that will be 24/7 365. And by the way, the one big difference here, right, between a Perfs market is it's not just trading that's available to you. You can um engage in the very act of market making. And like one way to think about um concentrated liquidity, right, which is something that I think if you're not deep in the weeds of onchain market making might be confusing, but it is in many ways like an onchain order book. You can position your liquidity, right? Either on the buy side or sell side of any given moment and you can help make those markets and then you know as the price moves it maybe comes into either side of your bid just like an order

book. Now, you can't do that on a centralized exchange unless you, you know, are basically a a institution or a marketmaking firm. You certainly can't do that in the Trady world unless you're accredited. This gives that same access, you know, that gives you the ability to uh play the role of Citadel. Um, you know, no matter who you are, no matter where you're from, no matter what you're bringing to bear, and I think that's the full stat, right? And that's why you open this question of like, well, yeah, Hyperlid has done a lot of this, right? in perpetual markets. Um, but spot markets will do the same thing and that is why we have been laser focused on becoming, you know, basically the hyperlquid of spot markets and

dominating EVM. >> Alex, I think uh I I think I know what you're going to be for you're going to be Ken Griffin for Halloween this year because uh you're bringing the [laughter] the uh the barrier to entry for anyone to be Citadel, anyone to be Ken Griffin much much lower opening access which is which is fantastic. the ethos of this this industry. You know, be before you you you hopped on, we were just talking about one of the the thesis that we have that we're kind of moving forward with for this cycle, which is the revenue meta. And and you're familiar with this. Um part of that is the legitimization of this industry. It is the tokenization super cycle. It's the fact that we're tokenizing these equities. These equities come on chain and they flow into the DeFi protocols

such as aerodrome and everything gets rerated because this is a much larger TAM than we've been projecting for this industry for a long time. Some people have had it in mind and that's what keeps them around and not pivot to AI and other people lose sight of that. And so given that now we have you know not just four but we expect several like lots more tokenized equities coming on. This is a hundred trillion dollar asset class. What do you anticipate this is going to do for Aerodrome and the industry at large as we increase the available assets that are available on chain? And obviously tying in, you know, more assets means more activity means more volume means more revenue means more uh

revenue meta and value acrruel to the tokens in this bucket. Can you just help walk us through the mental model of how we should be thinking about this progression going forward? Yeah, I mean this comes back to a core thesis that we've held, you know, basically since day one. And you know, if you're not familiar with us, you know, we started as five guys, you know, in a discord, mainly an and we never raised any money. Uh we never sold any tokens, right? And we we sort of scrappy uh approached our scaling up right to now being one of the largest decentralized exchanges in the world on the verge of launching our allnew Arrow or latest DEX operating system and going

for the number one most dominant spot in our expansion to uh chains like uh Ethereum and Circles Arc. But our thesis has been that the biggest prize out there on chain is onchain spot markets. And you don't need to take our word for it, right? You can just look at uh last year in 2025 um outside of stable coins, more fees were created um via onchain dexes, onchain spot markets about 5 billion than almost any other chain in the on or any other vertical in the onchain economy, right? I think uh derivatives did about three billion. You know, chains did, you know, two or three or something like that. Lending did uh even less than that. So this for us has

always looked like the biggest prize and so far we've been servicing you know about 5 to 10% of the the total total addressable market of these onchain spot markets. So we thought that there the biggest prize was capturing that Pam even if you didn't think about tokenization right even if it was just the pie that we had available to us today. If you add on top that that's not only the biggest prize onchain plus onchain FX is going to grow significantly and we're very excited about um what circle will be doing with ARC and us growing our uh already existing dominance of onchain FX markets. If you think about uh the

growth of onchain uh stocks like we are seeing with uh tokenized uh stocks on base that it's not just going to be that we're going to be able to capture and redistribute more of the value of this $5 billion pie but this $5 billion pie is going to look tiny compared to uh what it will look like in a few years. And like I I like to say uh or call back to something Brian Armstrong said during an earnings call last year. You know, Coinbase has been very very focused, right, on being sure that they were going to win in the onchain economy.

They created this beautiful, this elegant vertically integrated stack from Coinbase down through base through to the base ecosystem. Why have they remained so laser focused on that? Well, their thesis is that in the next 5 years, 10% of global GDP will come on chain. I remember when I started saying this, you know, um, you know, maybe six or eight months ago in the depths of the bear, you know, I would see some eyes roll, right? And I would see some, uh, well, that's, uh, you know, that's very bullish of you, Alex, but it's kind of hard to see right now. But um you know if in one day uh and in one weekend um before we even go out and announce the

product we can have a shot across the bow of uh you know one of the biggest international brokerages and the execution we can provide to customers and we're seeing folks like Bitwise begin to introduce like products built on top of these. Um, I think it's going to happen so much faster than people expect because fundamentally all we are talking about here is the same thing that's driven every technological revolution uh to date. Computers were just better than the analog components.

The internet created larger network effects than uh you know traditional ways of distributing and collaborating and all that sort of stuff. the onchain world and all the infrastructure we've built from the chains to the exchanges. It's just a better product. It's just better technology. It's better for all the users because there's it's free of all these intermediaries and you can redistribute all the value. It's 24/7. It's 365. It's globally accessible. And you know, if you had any doubt about this, just look at all the folks who were so critical of our industry for so long. um the major banks, the major institutions who are now rushing to play catch-up here. And you know, I think on

the last one I said this, you know, when you think about an exchange like a drone, you know, certainly we've got a competitive dynamic with with other exchanges on chain um with different models and things like that. But the ultimate goal, right, is for us to compete with the exchanges of the world, the NASDAQs, the um New York Stock Exchanges and things like that because how can you compete with distilling institutional level scale into code and redistributing all the value of that to the participants? I don't think you can.

And that's how I think like we win as a drone. But I also think that's how we as an industry win against some of the biggest most well- entrenched incumbents that history has ever seen. >> Yeah. Yeah. very I I mean that's extremely well said and 10% of GDP I think is uh becoming a little bit more rational in uh you know people's eyes as this uh as this industry develops and it gets recognized and legitimized you know by the the powers that be and uh I got to say those institutions I mean we saw you know the the president of inter international uh continental exchange um you know the the president of NASDAQ these guys look like they're kind of on

their heels they're kind reacting to what's out there and what they now sense is coming to them. Do you anticipate, you know, these guys are are going to kind of go go quietly into the into the good night or, you know, are they're going to I I think they're going to put up a fight and I'm just curious how you anticipate going toe-to-toe with the likes of NASDAQ and New York Stock Exchange. It's a great question and and yeah, I saw um something last week right as we were preparing for the uh big launch where you know NASDAQ was talking about uh you know putting a proposal forward to get trading 247. I don't think there's much of a coincidence here that that they're suddenly on their back foot

trying to react and to to um bring something that at least on one dimension might be comparable. Um I think it will absolutely be a fight. Um I think of course uh there are very entrenched interests very interested in maintaining uh the the status quo but uh you know I spent a number of years about six years working at at Apple and uh the thing that I always think about um with this sort of disruption coming down the chain is when um you know Steve Jobs announced the iPhone which turned out to be one of the single most disruptive uh you know technology innovation certainly of of uh my lifetime. You know, Steve Balmer, the

CEO at that time of Microsoft, has this classic clip where he's just laughing it laughing it off, saying, you know, who would ever want this thing? There's no keyboard. It's too expensive. It's all all of that. And the rest is basically history, right? The iPhone took over the world. Uh smartphones took over the world. And they largely look and act, you know, just like iPhones. And so these institutions will absolutely try to play catch-up, but unless they can remove all of the friction that we can do right now just by shipping some immutable code, unless they can remove all the intermediaries, which by the way in many cases they are the intermediaries. So they'd have to remove themselves unless they can make it

globally accessible 24/7 fast and cheap. Unless they can give, you know, permissionless access to a network of of uh, you know, onchain market makers from all over the world, they aren't going to be able to compete. It's it's like, you know, the horse and buggy was never going to compete with the automobile. Um, and you know, what we've got here is, I think, uh, not just an automobile, but you know, like a supercar, man. Um, so it's going to be a fight. Uh, but I think a lot of these folks might pivot, right? They might pivot to things and come participate in the onchain economy, but it'll just be in a different way.

you know, Blockbust Blockbuster reinvented itself a few times, you know, I think before completely uh disappearing behind, you know, folks like Netflix, but uh yeah, we've distilled institutional level scale into code and we reward everybody with 100% of the value uh platform creates and that's difficult to compete with. If you are on chain and building something that looks more like a traditional business, it's going to be near impossible for these institutions to compete with. >> Yeah. and and I do want to cover which we've covered before on the show, but uh the you know the the revenue model and value acrruel thesis that you guys have.

Um but but before we we do I'm just curious one of the things that I've seen on the tokenized equities world because it seems like everyone's sort of waking up to this at the same time. Everyone's kind of got their derivative and I I'm seeing some fragmentation in the tokenized equity space and you know we've seen this before with stable coins. Uh we've seen this with ETH when the rollup ccentric roadmap was announced and how you know uh ETH on optimism is not the same as ETH on uh you know arbitrum and you know wrapped versions of tokens and these sorts of things. We see you know B stocks and Dto stocks and tokenized equity here and there. I I I think we're going to run into very similar user experience issues

if we don't solve this early, if we end up with different varieties of tokenized equities spread across all of these different chains. Given that one of, you know, your your your primary things that you're thinking about here is coordinating liquidity across these different equities. You know, we're primarily on base right now and Coinbase, you know, and and and and Bass is kind of the primary launch partner chain there. But as these tokenized equities start to propagate across all of the chains, how do you think we should reconcile the fragmentation that we're seeing in tokenized equities these days?

>> Yeah, I mean, look, there there is going to be an expansion moment here, right? Because everyone is going to want to win the race to be the definitive tokenized version of these real world assets um on chain. And you know, today we've seen an explosion, right? And I think some of these do have, you know, various degrees of pros and cons, but, you know, we've seen wrap derivatives, we've seen uh debt securities, we've seen um uh a bunch of different versions of these things, but these were like kind of the things that I think were largely like the the betas, right? Um the the early versions of these things. And I think uh what we've seen from Coinbase here is

like a leapfrog moment where you know uh they actually represent and hold these things, custody them and issue them from a a trust that conveys beneficial ownership, right? Uh to people who use them. They have um splits built into them. They've got dividends built into them. And I'm sure that Coinbase wants to continue to like bring even more of that full experience. So, um I think the market will probably consolidate faster than what we've seen from other types of expansions of different versions of of different assets. But I would expect kind of like the iPhone analogy. There was a lot of different versions of

phones, smart or otherwise, and slowly it all started to consolidate around something that looked like the iPhone. And I think you'll see all of these versions forced to consolidate around something that looks more like what um you know Coinbase has brought in these tokenized stocks because if in 24 hours you know they can grab you know this much market share um other folks are going to have to react very quickly. But from our platform standpoint you know um we'll be going live uh with the allnew Arrow built on Metadex03 very very soon.

And our intention right is to be the dominant exchange layer across all of uh EVM. One of the aspects of that right whether it was the uh fragmentation of the chain experience or whether it's the fragmentation of the token experience we want to abstract that all away from you. So, if you are on uh mainet Ethereum, maybe you've never even used Bakes, right? Uh how do we make it very easy for you to to find the best token or asset? Well, you just go to Arrow, you look for tokenized Apple, you find it, and we take care of everything on the back side. You know, bridge over to base. You don't have to worry about gas.

We're going to give you the best execution on that asset, whether it's on base, whether it's on another chain or things like that. So we will make discovery of these things very easy. I think that also helps to consolidate the market because it won't be fragmented about which version is on what chain and where are you. It's just going to be hey I've got a point of view. I want to buy this asset as fast as I can. I want the best execution. You only need to go to one place and we'll be sure to give it to you uh on the back side. >> Incredible. Um and and I I think you know this is uh a protocol that's in position to subsume so much uh uh volume as a result of just the the onslaught of

tokenized equities that we anticipate coming on chain. Can you walk us through the value acrruel mechanism the value flow? You know let's say aerodrome adds a couple billion in trading volume on the heels of tokenized equities. I think that's probably a conser rather conservative actually. How does that increase in volume translate into increased arrow meaning meaning you know this uh volume you know creates fees and earnings for you know liquidity providers these sorts of things. Can you walk us through how the the trading volume eventually transforms into you know value acrruel into the token? Yeah.

So, um, to explain this, I would think like most people are familiar with the platform model, right? This is the classic sort of web two model and you could think about something like the Apple App Store, right? The Apple App Store says, "Hey, come launch a product on us. We are going to give you distribution to all of our users and in exchange we're going to ask for about a 25% cut of what you make." And Apple gets to do that, of course, right? because their platform is one of the most valuable. And so whatever you gain in that distribution or access to those customers is likely going to be far uh in excess of the the tax that uh they put on you. Now, we do see some folks on chain trying to move to this platform

model where they are basically going to say, well, you can use our software, but we're going to take some degree of a of a fee on top of that, right? and we're going to use that to redistribute value to a different stakeholder or something like that. We believe that reintroducing that sort of platform economy like model which is like if you go back and read like read write own this is one of the big cases for web 3 and the things that we're going to create is that we weren't going to reintroduce these intermediaries or extraction layers. So we believe 100% of the platform's value should be redistributed to users of it and we have encoded that since day one uh in immutable you know unchanging

code. So more fees on aeromer more revenue streams on aerrrome 100% of that value gets redistributed right back to users of our token. You know folks who take their arrow stake it and participate each week. But let me tell you about one of the really exciting things because we've talked a lot about this and you know folks say it's complicated but it shouldn't be too complicated. Arrow is a claim on 100% of our exchanges you know revenue. That's how it can be used. Uh but one of the most exciting aspects of V3 that we're going to introduce is this idea of predictive allocation. So you as a staker of Arrow, you don't just have access right to claim the value that the platform uh creates uh but you have the

ability to allocate capital and to allocate capital to markets that you believe will be productive. And the intersection here between tokenized real world assets trading 24/7 and this entirely new onchain primitive of predictive allocation is really powerful. And we'll go right to that example of Nvidia um doing millions uh in volume generating a ton of fees in uh weekend trading ahead of an earnings call. You could for instance as an S arrow allocator direct um arrow rewards to that pool. You are essentially helping to build that market. Liquidity will flow into it. And if you are right

that there's going to be a lot of volume, a lot of speculation, and a lot of activity, you can then earn back an asymmetric reward uh by having basically bet not on an outcome, but being bet on that that market will be used, right? It'll be productive, there will be volatility. And so we see this as like a really cool new aspect of the combination of Coinbase tokenized stocks and predictive allocation is that you know you as Robbie if you think hey market's about to close and I think there needs to be a ton of liquidity on Nvidia uh USDC because people are going to trade it like crazy. I don't have a point of view necessarily on if they're

going to beat or miss earnings. I just think there's going to be a lot happening there. You can make that bet just like a prediction market. If you are right, you get an asymmetric reward. So you can see the way in which more activity will certainly lead to more value, but it also leads to this entirely new primitive and your ability to earn like outsized rewards in proportion to how right you are about where markets need to exist and the value they produce. >> Incredible. And so you'd suggest that this is probably one of the best ways to utilize the Aeradrome platform is look at the markets out there. We know Nvidia earnings are coming up. Some more of these tokenized equities are coming

online. Be one of the early providers of the liquidity to make that market and reap the rewards in the form of the Arrow token. >> Yeah. I mean, I like to say, you know, when I came on chain in in 2021, 2022, I certainly tried my hand at uh trading, right? Um, but I think I learned pretty early on I'm not a particularly good trader. U, that's uh that's not where my uh edge comes in. But I >> You're a builder, Alex. >> Well, I'm I'm a builder, right? And I think the kind of bets I can make, right, are will people trade these things? Will people trade a lot of them?

Is the pie going to shrink or is the pie going to grow? And the thing that I've loved right about, you know, just myself being um a locker of Arrow and having used this now for years is I just get to be, you know, more or less directionally bullish on the idea that more assets are going to come on chain, more people are going to trade them. I'm going to use that token to allocate, you know, capital and rewards to those markets, and I'm going to earn back what those markets make. And for me at least, that's a bit more of a cozy position than will this token go up? Will that project rug? You know, and all that sort of stuff. I can just be long exchange onchain.

Incredible. Alex, thank you so much, man. I mean, incredible work. Uh, you guys are leading the charge. Tokenized equities, hundred trillion dollar asset class. Uh, Aerodrome, one of the primary venues to trade tokenized equities now, uh, as a result of the partnership with Coinbase. crushing on base and crushing on all chains including mainet soon. See you soon. >> Yeah. >> Awesome. Alex, thanks so much, man. I'm sure uh I'm sure it's busy times, hectic over there at Aer Drrome. So, uh keep cooking and uh we appreciate you coming on.

>> Thanks. Adios. >> Absolutely. We'll see you again soon. Thanks Alex. Very cool. Very cool. We're going to keep this show rocking and rolling. Big shout out to Alex. I mean, absolutely crushing. uh you guys know how important tokenized equities are to the thesis and uh we anticipate that this is only going to continue uh and yeah I mean look aerodrome is uh one of the primary benefactors here uh we know that tokenized equities are benefiting uh as of they're benefiting from the legitimization of the industry and so when you see the president of the United States you know on stage giving press conferences with leaders of an industry when you see the regulatory regimes, the

financial regulators of the United States holding innovation advisory committees with industry leaders. You know that this is what we're calling the legitimization of the industry. You know that you know the powers that be the president, the regulators, they're basically putting their stamp of approval on this industry and on this technology and on the companies that are making up this industry and they're basically saying, "Okay, this is fair game. You know, you guys uh everyone else who already has that stamp of approval, these guys are part of the part of the team." You know, like these guys are now in the game. And so that's what we're seeing. And now that you have all these new entrance into the

industry, all of these guys are now starting to work together, right? And that's where you start to get, you know, the tokenized equities that end up on chain. It's not just this brokerage game anymore. There's new entrance in this game. Um, Coinbase, Robin Hood, Dinari, these guys are tokenizing these things, but ultimately these things are going to just pro propagate. We know that you can't keep these things chained up. Capital wants to be free. It wants to be liquid and it wants to move across all of these chains and it will and it will make its way into the applications and the protocols that ultimately leverage those assets to the highest utility and I think aerodrome does that. I think there's other very creative financial

experiments that we're seeing in the equ tokenized equities world. I think Bitwise they had a great announcement in which they're creating these automatic trading portfolios almost basically like a vault right and we know that Bitwise is bullish on the vault complex and now they came out with that product and I think we're going to see equities tokenized equities in that in those automated trading portfolios and I think we're going to get yield strategies swap earn build was the slogan that Coinbase put into that launch announcement of these tokens equities. And I think we're going to see, you know, these these equities make their way into a we're going to see them make their way into Morpho. We're going to see people borrow against these equities. People are going

to generate yield from loaning out these equities, maintain exposure to them, right? All of these things are going to take place. And it's very cool because we ended up creating generalized infrastructure, general fintech that is applicable, not just the cryptonative tokens that we used to kind of bootstrap and experiment the technology. The technology and the infrastructure is actually compatible with the largest asset classes in the world being the equities market. So very very cool to see. I'm extremely pleased uh to have these guys in our corner. We're going to keep tracking uh all of uh the developments here in the fintech world,

in the digital finance world as finance moves onchain and is tokenized. And we're going to keep telling you guys who we believe is going to be the primary benefactor of all of these the confluence of factors here, right? the macro liquidity environment, the legitimization of the industry, uh the buildout of strategic verticals, per stable coins, vaults, prediction markets. Okay, we're going to continue to talk about who we believe are the leaders in each of these categories and how you can allocate to these leaders in order to outperform the baseline. uh as we enter the pre-bull market phase, investable token era is coming and uh

stick around because uh we have uh we're going to we're going to talk about it here on the show. We're going to make sure that you guys know uh everything you need to know. Got a couple more things that we're going to cover before we bring up our next guest who I know you guys want to hear from. Uh Zack Pandle from Gayscale. He's going to tell us about the Zcash ETF and uh we're very very excited to hear about it. But first, got a couple more things that we want to cover. Let's go ahead. Hase had an interesting tweet here. Uh you guys know that we've been covering this liquidity environment. Secretary Bessant had a uh liquidity supply announcement that he made around the Treasury buyback programs that were typically done

quarterly. They were very well forecast, off the run, normal buybacks. But now Bessant announced that they're going to double the size of these buybacks and they're going to become a lot more instrumental to the bond market. And so this caught people off guard. Uh this was ultimately what skyrocketed uh Bitcoin and some of the other hard money assets off the lows. Crypto in general responded. Uh overall I think we're I mean pretty much every asset is up double digit percent between 15 and 50% this week. Um across Hyperlid Zcash and the and the like. Uh Pump Fund up 60% Sky 20%, Athena 80%, Lighter 47%,

Aerodrome 33%, Bitcoin 22%. And so this liquidity announcement from the treasur is obviously a big deal. Bessant is the one who made that announcement. But here's his former boss, Stanley Drunken Miller, who together, Bessant and Drunken Miller broke the Bank of England. Drunken Miller put together this thesis. I read it in the Wall Street Journal. I mean, it made sense overall, but it didn't really have too much of substance. Here's the image that we want to take a look at. 100% AI generated.

And so now there's some debate on whether or not it matters. Who cares whether it's AI generated as long as it's confirmed to be his words, right? Whether an AI helped him write it or not doesn't really matter. I mean, I guess, you know, if it has your stamp of approval, you know, it still kind of holds weight if your name holds weight. And so Stanley Drunken Miller certainly does, especially as you know, he has had a former relationship with both Secretary Bessant and uh the Fed's Kevin Worsh. And so part of the thesis of this liquidity announcement from Bessant was that he is kind of putting pressure on Worsh uh to do a quantitative easing process on the short end of the bond curve. We'll see if that ends up happening. I'd imagine that

Bessant and Worsh are actually a little bit tighter and work together a little bit more closely than people might think. So I don't really think that Bessant would try to pull a fast one on Kevin Worsh and catch him off guard into, you know, adapting the Fed strategy. I think he probably telegraphed this uh and maybe even ran it by Kevin Worsh first. Not don't know that for sure, but that's speculation. Whether or not this article is AI generated, I don't think is a question. Comes up as 100% AI generated. So, it seems like Stanley drunken Miller certainly does. I also read it has a lot of that uh kind of it's not this, it's that tone of voice. So, I think it's definitely AI generated, but it definitely still holds weight. Why would Stanley Drunken Miller come out against

his former coworker in Scott Bessant? Uh why would he do that? Well, he might have some, you know, interesting opinions. I I would also think, you know, this is this would have been material non-public information before it was announced, so you can't share inside information, you know, with people that don't have access to it really easily like that. But I also would have thought that, you know, maybe Scott Bessant is still in contact in in good graces with his former boss, Stanley Drunken Miller. Maybe he even ran this idea by Drunken Miller. I just think, you know, just the surface level, you know, oh, drunken Miller is against Scott Besson's plan

feels like there's a little bit more than meets the eye, right? And obviously we would have liked for there to be like this very, you know, seamless coordination process, right? the smartest financial minds on earth proven throughout history to have a successful track record managing just you know vast sums of money would figure out what to do about the American economy right Kevin Worsh in charge of the Fed Besson in charge of the Treasury they both worked for Drunken Miller like they probably had a plan in which they were able to work their way through this it just seems like maybe they didn't have as much of a plan or at least Drunken Miller is not really on board with their plan so it's very odd Obviously, the AI generated language is an extra wrinkle

here, but how do we think this is going to play out in the coming days and weeks? We're going to see uh more sanctions on Iran. I think that certainly has an angle to this. You know, we're going to see this Treasury buyback happen September 9th. It could be even bigger than what they announced. Uh and then they also came out and they said they might tap the Treasury general account uh and drain that and put put that liquidity into the open market. So there's a lot that the Treasury has signaled in terms of adding liquidity and rearranging the debt in recent times. Drunken Miller has come out against this. He said, "Look, that's not the way you should be doing this." Worsh in order for this to really work and for them to run the economy hot, Worsh would

have to comply. and he hasn't really shown that he's interested in doing that in in in effect he's actually said the opposite that he doesn't want to add anything to the Federal Reserve's balance sheet in the short end. So we'll see we'll see. We also know that the Fed conference in Jackson Hole is typically when uh the Fed chairman kind of comes out and indicates forward guidance one way or the other and kind of you know lays out uh a strategy for the Federal Reserve, but Kevin Washington's been against that too. So I kind of think that you know the overall you know money printers about to fly thesis you know

that is sort of shifting but we'll see how exactly it plays out. we might be at a local uh top as it pertains to the the accommodative uh liquidity environment. And so the hard asset thesis, right, I think certainly still in effect, but we might see the revenue meta heat up again, right? It just kind of feels like all right, things are cooling off, settling down a little bit. We're going to get through kind of the tariff nonsense on the heels of, you know, Bessant sanctions against Iran. China's retaliating. Canada's retaliating. So, we're kind of working our way through these, you know, short-term effects and we're ultimately going to land ourselves in a place where um, you know, the the anticipation is that

we're going to get a lot more liquidity in this market. Uh, we're going to see how that plays out over the next couple of months, uh, especially through midterms. So, we're we're watching this closely, but, you know, certainly an interesting wrinkle that uh, Drunken Miller's article came back as 100% AI generated. Let's keep going. Uh we've got our next headline which is a new entrance into the HIT 3 deployer game. Entropy IO is releasing the first liquid way to trade Anthropic. Anthropic obviously private company. Um I was surprised that there wasn't an existing preipo market. Uh Anthropic is slated to do their IPO a little bit later this year, maybe in November. And uh we've seen preIPO

markets on Hyperlquid already. And so I found it a little bit curious as to why there isn't already one for Anthropic um or at least not a liquid one. For far too long, Frontier assets have only been accessible to a select few. We're going to bring them to the masses. Entropy.io raised 14 million uh and 40 million hype stake uh in order to get that ticker for Anthropic. and they're coming out announcing the raise and announcing that they have this anthropic market going live preo market. So that's what that's what we're seeing here. So we'll see uh we'll see if Entropy.io ends up uh doing what they say that they're going to do. Uh I think

they're also designing this with a new oracle in mind and uh you know this is something that we are we are watching pretty intently because trade XYZ has had a monopoly on the hip 3 deployer market up until now and so it's very cool to see this become more competitive. Uh we had a good chat with the Paragon founder yesterday. Uh Paragon also a player in the HIP 3 deployer space. Those guys just announced the 30-year uh and I believe the the two and the 10-year uh bond markets on Hyperlid. So, House of All Finance getting built out and uh Hip 3 deployers are entering. So, this is becoming a more competitive space.

Everyone is coming for TradeX's Monopoly. So, very cool to see Entropy.io and Paragon uh coming for that Trade XYZ spot. Let's keep going. We've got a couple more that we want to get through, I believe. And so, we're gonna bring our uh next guest on in just a moment. Zack Pandle is going to tell us about he's going to tell us about the Zcash ETF. We're going to bring him up in a minute. Uh before we do, let's give a quick shout out to our privacy partner. Uh we're going to give a shout out to Zo.

These guys are absolutely crushing. Remember that the legitimization of the industry is at the confluence of several facets. uh you know we know stable coins, we know uh tokenized equities, we know these are building out more assets on chain. We're also building out the AI and privacy narratives. AI is becoming the surveillance state. I mean we know that data is becoming increasingly valuable. These companies are going after it and we have you know these flock cameras all over the country probably all over the world very soon.

Surveillance state is starting to encroach on our privacy. uh we can respond in a variety of ways. Zama is programmable privacy and Zcash is the hard asset. Uh if you're looking for a uh barbell approach uh to uh a barbell approach to uh this narrative, I mean, look no further than Zcash on the monetary premium side and Zama uh ticker is Zama on the revenue side. All right, let's hit our last tweet. This is going to lead us into our segment with Zack Pandle. Uh because we've actually got a Pandle tweet that we're going to cover today.

Low beta is the handle. And here's Zach talking about Zcash. Uh Zcash can challenge Bitcoin's network effects. Zach always keeps these things very data driven. I'm excited to talk to him. We're getting him ready in the back. Bitcoin is the dominant digital currency, greater than 90% market share, but financial privacy may be a musthave in the future age of AI. If correct, price of Zcash may still have significant upside. Read our research perspective below. Obviously, you guys have seen the rise of Zcash lately. Um, it's hovering around $500 for a while, upwards of $800 today, hovering around that $800 mark.

Um, and so what he says here is that there is still significant upside remaining. Let's go ahead scroll down a little bit so we can see this chart. The share of Bitcoin's market capitalization. Okay. Price implied by potential share. So obviously and we've seen calls for 0.1 Zcash to Bitcoin. Okay. Uh the current is a N.9%. Okay, 0.1 Zcash to Bitcoin would be 10%. All right, and this chart was obviously done when Bitcoin was around that 81k mark, right? And so what we have here is not only right a value proposition in

terms of hard money assets liquid you know accommodative liquidity policy but it's also the ratio between uh programmability and utility of an asset that is poised for the generation of privacy and AI surveillance that we believe we're headed into and couple that with the accommodative macro liquidity policy. Right? So we know that in general, right, with the announcements from the Treasury, with the money printer getting turned on, the deficit, all of these things, the only option is to grow our way out of it and print our way out of it.

This is spurring a value proposition for hard money, scarce assets, right? Gold obviously fits into that, but also digital assets like Bitcoin and Zcash, right? And so this thesis, this theory of hard money benefits Bitcoin and Zcash kind of very similarly, right? Bitcoin and Zcash are both in a pos both in a position to benefit as a result of accommodative monetary policy. But when you look within hard assets and you're comparing Bitcoin and Zcash, the powers that be Grayscale and others are taking the position that there is still lots of room to run in the Zcash to Bitcoin ratio, right? And this is on the heels of maybe Bitcoin moving a little bit too slow in the uh quantum

area, right? Zcash obviously taking a little bit more uh more of a uh preemptive approach uh to making the protocol quantum resistant and quantum secure, right? Zcash has the lead on Bitcoin in that sense. Uh and and also uh Zcash has confidential transactions where Bitcoin doesn't. And so that is also creating this aspect where uh we could see a rerating of Zcash to Bitcoin in terms of that ratio. And so with that being said, not only do you have this accommodative monetary and liquidity rate uh situation that benefits Bitcoin and Zcash equally, you also have the scales then tipped in favor of Zcash

because it's got the confidential nature and it's got the quantum resistance. And I think those are two aspects that those who are believers, those are believers in Zcash uh that favor it over Bitcoin. And I think we're going to hear more from Zach in just a moment. But ultimately this is what we are anticipating especially as we see more and more research coming out from Gayscale and others that is saying hey you know this is the way in which we expect this market to move this ratio of Zcash to Bitcoin to move and um this is what we're watching. There's also, you know, several um uh you know, kind of famous, you know, asset supporters that have kind of been

around the block a couple of times that have supported Zcash. Uh and you know, these guys have been in from the beginning as well. And uh you know, that adds another interesting wrinkle to the entire Zcash story. And so we're going to bring in uh we're going to bring in Zach uh in just a moment and we're going to bring him up uh on the stage. We're still getting him ready in the back, but uh it's very exciting. We've had Zach on the show several times. Not always talking about Zcash, but oftentimes talking about the market broadly, uh talking about Bitcoin, ETH, the ratio between those two. Today talking a little bit more between the ratio between Zcash and Bitcoin. Uh Zach is head of research at Grayscale Investments. You guys know they just

converted. uh their Zcash trust into an ETF. So, we're going to be talking about that. Uh and so, uh you know, he's got plenty of great takes on REGG crypto, SEC, regulation, clarity, all of these things. Today, the focus is on Zcash as they launch their ETF. So, this is going to be our AI super cycle segment uh because we believe that a a important piece of the Zcash thesis is the response to the AI surveillance state. So, let's go ahead play the little intro animation here. Uh, AI super cycle sponsored by Near and we'll get in uh Zack uh Pandle of Grayscale.

[music] >> Welcome back to AI Supercycle, [music] our premier AI show airing every single week presented by Near. We cover the ins and outs of decentralized AI, privacy, [music] and the future of this massive technology. Near is the blockchain for AI and the execution of AI native apps. Can check out Near's latest AI product at near.ai. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. All right, we're live. We're here with Zack on Big Day AI super cycle. The AI surveillance state uh continues and Zcash is a response to that. We're going

to get into the entire thesis with Zcash uh but also the ETF that you guys converted uh from the trust. Uh Zach, it's a pleasure to see you again. You've been on the show a couple of times. Welcome back. >> Great to see you, Robbie. Awesome to be back. Huge day for for Zcash. Delighted to to share views on it. >> Absolutely. And congratulations. So maybe let let's start there, right? We'll get into all of the thesis around Zcash, why uh you know there's uh you know several market participants that are rallying around this. It does feel like it's a return to the original ethos that you know a lot of us came into this space with. But first, let's talk about the trust that is now an ETF. Uh Grayscale has done this with previous products. Bitcoin was a trust converted

into an ETF, a couple others as well. Can you walk us through the mechanism and what transpired today to ultimately bring this Zcash ETF to market? >> Absolutely. very similar story uh to the Grayscale Bitcoin uh trust, one of the uh first vehicles for getting uh regulated access to to Bitcoin here here in the United States. Look, Zcash itself is around 10 years old. The Grayscale uh trust is around 9 years old. I think speaking to uh how closely this business has followed the ecosystem, the conviction uh in Zcash as a network, as an asset. Uh so these uh products they start out as basically closedend

vehicles, private placements uh for accredited investors and uplifting them uh to ETFs makes them open-ended uh vehicles and greatly broadens the accessibility uh to many more uh investor types. And so we're delighted to be able to do that here uh with Zcash as we have with these other uh products. But the conviction, the thesis around uh the asset doesn't really uh change. This is about uh the value of decentralized digital currency which Bitcoin uh demonstrated but building on that vision with uh the critical element of of financial privacy. I know we'll get into all that today. Uh but we're delighted to be able to tell that story and share access to the Zcash ecosystem with many

more investors in the form of the Zcash ETF. AB: >> Absolutely. And we, you know, we've been following Zcash for quite a while. Near has been a partner of this show for quite a while as well and Near Intense helped uh expand the ecosystem and Zcash ultimately became uh an asset with utility and I think that is what a lot of Bitcoiners might be a little bit disillusioned and and uh you know fallen out of uh favor with uh as we've sort of started to notice this rotation from Bitcoin into Zcash because of two reasons primarily and I'm curious if these resonate with you and kind of the institutional investor network that you've seen. speaking to, you know, this quantum resistance. Bitcoin tried, there

was a a a movement to try to make Bitcoin a little bit more quantum secure. It it has not transpired quite yet. Zcash has been a lot more fast-paced, a lot more proactive in making its protocol more quantum resistant and ultimately quantum secure. Um and the other being that you know uh Zcash does have confidential transactions and the ability to shield its transactions and it gives that element of financial privacy. So quantum resistance and privacy how important are those to the investment thesis for Zcash.

>> Look I I agree with uh with all of that Robbie um you know Bitcoin has many strengths uh of course and and how I might frame it is that Bitcoin has first mover advantages in this space. the first decentralized digital currency, the first blockchain, and has tremendous network effects from that first mover advantage. But we would argue that Zcash has second mover advantages. It has particular strengths in areas that were not possible or less relevant when Bitcoin uh first took off. And that's what's required in order to uh challenge something with deep network effects like uh Bitcoin. And I think you articulated uh the case well. how I would put is

number one financial privacy. Uh number two is more active development uh for quantum readiness to harden the blockchain uh against AI uh powered attackers. And third is something that you touched on as well which is crosschain reach. We don't really need uh to have every merchant in the world uh except Zcash for this asset to serve as a private hub uh with kind of universal uh access. The magic of intense technology means that we can keep our assets in a shielded pool and have them reach anywhere potentially with say stable coin payments on Salana or on Ethereum. So financial privacy,

the active development culture and the crosschain reach to me are really unique advantages that give Zcash a real shot uh of taking market share in really competing against Bitcoin in this use case. >> Yep. Absolutely. And I I want to highlight and double click on uh the second mover advantage that you pointed to. Um there was actually a friend of the show uh Lorenzo who uh kind of outlined that this is a a um phenomenon that we see across sectors. It's not just in kind of the hard money assets like you're pointing to with Bitcoin and Zcash, but also uh in several onchain

businesses. I would even say that we've seen this in the AI world as you see AI frontier model companies leapfrog one another. there is a a second mover effect where once someone is out live in production, we can learn, stress test and dis uh uh distill those models and then you have the next best model ultimately leapfrog uh the one that was ahead. And so I'm curious how the second mover advantage ultimately transpires when it comes to the hard money assets, the scarce assets, the ones that we believe have monetary premium. you know, Zcash is in a position where you said it has more proactive development. We also saw that they went to, you know, uh, I believe it was anthropic and was able to

get, you know, one of the more advanced models, I believe it was Mythos, to stress test the system, something that I believe, uh, one of the Winklvoss twins was suggesting that we should push for more in the CFTC advisory committee. And so, Zcash has been on the frontier uh, you know, of the industry for quite a long time. What what do you see in this second mover advantage? We're already seeing quantum resistance and privacy at the forefront. What else do you anticipate coming out of the Ezek ecosystem in which it can further advance beyond Bitcoin in you know some of these more technical uh development areas?

>> Yeah, a lot of elements that we can touch on how I would characterize it. You know, Grayscale looks at the crypto asset class as a whole. There's so many different tokens, so many different types of blockchains with different use cases. And this is we're focused on the currencies category here. And in that category today, Bitcoin is king. Bitcoin has more than 90% market share in the currencies uh category. The blockchains that are designed for the use case of sound money or or a hard money. Uh just like in other categories in there can be competition. In smart contracts, Ethereum was the first mover and has a lot of uh strengths and and of course a lot of attributes that we love about

Ethereum. But there's room for some competition, room for other blockchains that are making different design choices and servicing users that have a different set of needs. I think Salana is a great example of that. You know, Salana showed that there's a different set of choices that you can make and create a lot of value uh for uh users and ultimately value for uh the token. Uh in the currencies category, we have lacked that competition. There really hasn't been uh as much dynamism and and anything competing with uh Bitcoin in in a head-to-head way. In that same type of sense, I I think the you know, Zcash has is an idea whose time has come. It is 10 years old and these these assets these

ideas have been uh I would say being nurtured uh for a long time but the time the time is now uh the category is ripe for more competition and we think Zcash is placed to to take some market share now just like in the smart contracts uh category you know Ethereum is not going to go away and Bitcoin is not going to go away and the competition probably will make Bitcoin stronger uh just like the competition from Salana made Ethereum stronger. But today, we we see Zcash's market share as just too small for the value that it's bring. Just less than 1% 0.9% of uh Bitcoin's market cap.

It still seems to undervalue uh the properties of financial privacy and the other unique attributes that uh Zcash is is bringing. So, more competition uh to this category, more value placed on the unique proposition of of financial privacy. That's how we think about uh the investment thesis. >> Yeah. And you recognize the investment thesis very early on. What was the the the light bulb moment for the market? Was it you know the frontier model companies just advancing, you know, at such a rate or was it something else that ultimately was the catalyst for, you know, after really eight years, nine years of dormcancy for Zcash to really start to take off and resonate with the

market? What what do you think was the the real catalyst here? >> It's a onetwo punch of the risk of AI surveillance and I think uh an awareness of the power of these tools and what it's going to mean for our uh lives. You know, we're seeing that in the physical world with AI powered cameras and we're going to see that in the financial world with uh monitoring of transaction and labeling of address and all of those uh types of things. I think the other element is just the growing up uh of crypto uh the maturing of public blockchain uh tech and as uh we have started uh to enter traditional finance as traditional institutional investors have explored uh blockchain technology

they immediately recognize that privacy is a missing element. uh you know it is obvious uh that public blockchain technology requires a privacy layer and a very natural uh way to start investing in that thesis is at the most important use case of this technology and of these assets today which is decentralized uh scarce uh digital money. Uh and so bit Bitcoin is the the first uh element in a way of of the the crypto ecosystem uh that is getting its privacy layer uh that category is getting the privacy layer. But we're going to see that privacy layer added to uh smart contract uh platforms uh to stable coins and and to tokenized assets and to dexes. All of that's going to require privacy uh as

well. So I I think many eyes being opened uh from uh the power of AI technology from the missing pieces of public blockchain technology as it grows up and it starts to enter big boy uh finance uh privacy becomes obvious uh I think and and something that is clear to so many people and that explains why we've had such an explosive move in in the price of uh of Zcash at 19x uh or so uh since uh last year. Um I think that this is um only the beginning for for Zcash and only the beginning uh for privacy across our ecosystem.

>> Yeah. In incredible and you know this is kind of had two major run-ups in Zcash. Obviously the first was spurred by what you're talking about the convergence of factors the legitimization of the industry quantum resistance and privacy as a response to this. Uh there was uh the ironwood upgrade uh which was an upgrade from the orchard pool in which you know there was uh the anthropics mythos models that ultimately looked at Zcash. It said hey we should make this upgrade and they implemented this turnstyle accounting that made sure that the upgrade went out uh without a hitch.

Uh and and so now that seems to be behind us going forward. You know, I I'm curious because, you know, you've put out research that talks about the ratio of Zcash to Bitcoin. What do you think the ratio of Zcash to Bitcoin to get to and what do you think the catalysts for the increase are? >> The the question is what is the value of uh financial uh privacy? Um today uh the market is valuing that at less than 1% and that seems a surprisingly low uh number uh to me. I think it's very difficult to uh estimate exactly uh where we will land uh in in terms of the the value of this alternative uh

technology and I'm not going to give a a price prediction uh uh here. Um but less than 1% seems an awfully uh low number uh from our viewpoint and if investors are you know thinking about how to do this uh scaling you know just one one benchmark uh that I would give not a price prediction uh is if Zcash were say 5% of Bitcoin's current uh market cap that would put the price at the 4 to 4 a half thousand uh level uh roughly uh speaking depending how long it takes to get there and accounting for supply changes in in the price of Zcash. So that's not a price prediction, but I think it does go to say that, you know,

we're we're we've had a large move, a 19x uh move since uh last year. Um you know, it has appreciated in value uh of course, but at the kind of $800, $900 level in to my eye, we are still putting a surprisingly low price uh on the value of uh financial uh privacy. >> Yeah, absolutely. I I think 5% uh is probably conservative in that regard and we're believers in the in the importance of uh privacy when it comes to uh fi finance and money and uh in addition to scarce assets right uh because that is also part of the thesis here and this is one thing that we've seen the macro liquidity environment has become accommodative at least signaled by

Treasury Besson and these buybacks we saw we saw this explosion off the lows and that drove Zcash uh higher in this latest move but again the ratio between these hard assets is still ripe for changing. Um maybe you can walk us through a little bit more of the mechanics here because Grayscale had the foresight to create these products. It was a closed end trust early on. There was significant demand there. Now it's converted into an ETF. Um there was and and I'd like to maybe dispel some misconceptions here. There was one floating around that, you know, these guys have been locked up for a long time in this trust. They're up a lot because of that foresight that Gayscale had. Now

with this open-ended ETF, uh they have the options of getting liquidity. Do you have any idea of how much uh of the assets in the trust are looking to exit via the ETF? Do you anticipate the demand for the ETF offsetting uh the the potential exit in liquidity from the trust? >> Yeah, it's a great question. Let me let me say a couple things about this uh topic. You know, first off, this is a good reminder that this is not a brand new ETF. It's a 9-year-old uh investment access uh product, and investors that uh have been involved in the product from from the g beginning and and throughout uh its history have uh experienced strong returns already uh in this

product. Uh as a result, there there can be profit taking um certainly uh after big appreciations and around a certain level. Um that being said, you know, we had very similar uh stories around the launch of the Bitcoin ETFs that this was a kind of uh buy the rumor, sell the fact type of event uh in markets and that proved to be dead wrong. Uh of course, you know, the ETFs uh were uh a moment for investors to get new liquidity. Uh but they were the starting point of the rally in the price of Bitcoin in uh in 2024. Um so I I would be careful with this uh logic. We're very grateful uh to have provided value to many different types of investors for

a long period of time almost as long as the network has been around and I can't predict the behavior of all of those uh investors. Um but I I think that this is the beginning of something uh not the end of something for uh for Zcash and the Grayscale uh Zcash uh product uh the Zcash ETF. And of course the open-end structure does mean there can be inflows and outflows. That's a great advantage of this product. That means there's investor liquidity. That means it will very accurately try track the price of the underlying uh token and work exactly as the other very successful crypto ETFs now available in the market.

>> Yeah, absolutely. And uh you mentioned this is a more flexible product. Uh, and actually I I I mean I when I saw you were coming on the show, I wanted to ask you this because as far as Trady guys go, uh, you're extremely wellversed in the likes of DeFi. And so I think, uh, it's helpful to understand someone's perspective when they can kind of see both worlds as these worlds collide. And so I understand the ETF is going to provide access to get exposure to the Zcash asset, you know, that from those who may not have another venue in which they can get access. But a lot of the value of Zcash is its utility, a its confidential nature in transactions, its quantum resistance, um these sorts of things. We've we've spoken to leaders of

the Zcash ecosystem in Mert who's told us about the Tachion uh upgrade that is coming to Zcash and this is another primary upgrade uh in addition to Ironwood that went live a couple of weeks ago. And so when you're speaking to investors or prospective investors, how do you you know describe the ETF to them versus you know buying this and and utilizing the asset in its confidential nature? Is there a balance balance that you know we can strike between these products? How do you reconcile this in your own you know personal mind uh given that a lot of the features of Zcash are available when it's on the blockchain?

AB: Absolutely. And a very important uh question. How how I would answer this is that the the ETF is an excellent way to get investment exposure uh to the Zcash ecosystem and the Ze token in the context of a broader portfolio in the context of your uh brokerage account or tax advantaged account. Uh that that's what this product is is designed for. But of course with the the ETF, you're not getting the full experience uh if you will. And so I I would not hesitate to encourage investors to look at the value of shielded uh technology and I think that anyone that does this uh is is certainly going to have their eyes opened uh to how important uh this

technology is. We are not uh at Grayscale uh in the business of offering uh you know wallets or or access to shielded uh Zcash. Uh the trust holds um transparent uh and auditable uh Zcash in Coinbase custody like our other uh ETF products and really designed for investment exposure. But I would absolutely encourage uh listeners to look at uh shielded uh Zcash. That that is really where the the value is uh coming from. And I I think for for people that haven't uh done that um uh they will be uh have an eyeopening experience of how easy and effective uh the ZK technology uh is in providing uh fully decentralized

uh scarce open-source private money. It's a really remarkable uh technological uh feat. So uh you're right, it's it's about striking a balance. one vehicle for investment exposure, one vehicle to give you uh really that uh fully private uh set of assets and transactions uh without a centralized intermediary. >> Yeah, absolutely. And um there's a couple more uh just mechanical things around this ETF. I think I saw it was a 2 and a half% fee associated with it. Maybe you can just round out some of the details around the ETF. anything else that you think investors should know as they're looking at this product and how you think the market is going to react to this launch?

>> Yeah, that's right. The the fee the product has been around for nine years and the fee has been constant since the launch of the uh the product. Uh investors have had a a good experience and strong returns throughout uh that period of time. I would like to add that we have also committed uh to for the first year of this uh ETF uh taking 100% of the fee revenue and plowing it back uh into the Zcash ecosystem through education and other elements uh of support to support this product and to support uh Zcash. you know, this is a real long-term commitment, a long-term conviction uh in the value of this network, the importance uh of these

tools uh in our uh world today. Uh and I think that that context is important when you think about the product. Uh beyond that, I you know, I think about kind of broadening uh the access and broadening uh the toolkit uh like we have with uh other uh ETF products. I think you should expect the development of derivative markets uh around that particularly options uh structures uh for for hedging uh for adding yield oriented strategies around Zcash and because it is a high volatility asset. I think that some of those ideas will be uh quite compelling uh for certain types of uh investors. The most important thing that I'd like to uh emphasize uh here though is that it's sort of a

privacy imperative uh that you know gets us to this uh point. U you know this this is important technology in in blockchains. It's important technology uh we we think for uh uh for for people around the world to have uh the choice about what financial information uh they are disclosing uh out into the world and Zcash is a very special piece of technology that gives uh people that that autonomy uh that uh that choice to decide uh are we going to disclose the value of our assets and and the value of our transactions or not. Uh it's a very powerful idea. I think an idea that's going to be increasingly important as AI uh reshapes our our world. Our part uh is just to give uh straightforward

efficient investment access to this uh theme uh through Grayscale's products uh and to help support the ecosystem over time. Uh we fully expect to do that. >> Yeah. I mean well well said and I think you guys are pros when it comes to launching these products. like you said, this one has been around a long time. Now, the conversion to the ETF, uh the the, you know, 100% fees back into the ecosystem, I think, is, you know, just incredibly incentive aligned. Uh we here at the rollup, I we pride ourselves on educational uh commentary on the on the space and we're big fans of Zcash, so would love to to, you know, put something together on that front. Um, you know, there's one thing, Zack, that that occurred to me as as you were kind of describing this broad thesis here and

how Grayscale is interacting with the space, and that's, you know, this AI side of the thesis for Zcash. You know, we've been talking about kind of the AI surveillance state as it is and, you know, how Zcash is a response to this with financial privacy and taking that ownership into one's own hands. You know, the the thing that occurs to me is that, you know, the Aentic commerce and Agentic economy is getting built out at the same time. And I can't help but think this is maybe a little bit far out, but you know, these agents are going to need some form of money. And I have a feeling they are smart enough to also recognize the inflationary effects of the fiat system and stable coins that a lot of us have also recognized.

Agents also may value their privacy on behalf of their humans or or not. And so do you think there's a a a thesis here or a vector in which Zcash could become the predominant form of money for agents and AI AI agents? Do you think that this is potentially realistic, a lot of uh a lot of layers um but you know I bring it back uh to uh to near intense and how that's powering things today. Um, you know, we're also big believers in in Near and we're uh thrilled to see these two ecosystems come together to give such a convenient uh user experience uh with some of the Zcash wallet infrastructure uh today. Um to me intense is what I expect an agent

experience uh to feel like. Uh I just want something to happen uh happens behind the scenes to how being uh powered. Um I think uh near near intense uh working with Zcash uh is along the lines of where the agentic finance uh uh element is going to go. Um you know agents are going to need privacy uh on working on our behalf in the same way that we are going to need uh privacy. I think Zcash can absolutely uh play that role uh powered uh by additional tools like intents.

>> Absolutely. Well, Zach, uh we really appreciate all of your hard work and pioneering uh this space and bringing it to investors at large. Uh and we realize that it's exciting times and busy times. And so really really appreciate you you spending some of your time here today. We're big believers uh in this asset as a response uh to the surveillance state uh with all of the progression that AI is is uh moving and uh big believers in financial privacy as a whole. So, thank you so much for uh spending some time with us here today and helping educate our audience around Zcash. >> Thanks, Robbie. We'll see you soon.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely. See you soon, Zach. Um guys, that's been AI Supercycle powered by Near and uh big shout out to Zack. We're going to keep this uh this show moving along and uh yeah, Zack as always, rock solid. Uh big big fan of his and big fan of Gayscale. Very cool to see this launch live and uh we are continuing to uh spread spread the good word here on Zcash. Uh Bitcoin Zcash ratio is uh poised for some movement. Uh so Zcash holding right around that 800 level. Very cool to see. Uh and that's been AI super cycle. So we're going to bring up our next guest here in just a moment. Our next guest is going to be Han from Codeex. These guys are doing uh

very cool things when it comes to forex uh onchain uh movements between uh stable coins and fiat uh and generally uh you know greasing the wheels here on the onchain economy. And so let's go ahead uh move off of AI super cycle here and get into our regularly scheduled programming. Uh but I hope you guys enjoyed that uh that segment with Zach from Grayscale. And so we're going to get into our regularly scheduled program with how non in just a moment. Uh we can go ahead and take uh the top right little tag off.

We'll keep things moving, guys. Don't little little little you know, we got a whole team effort here behind the scenes. There we go. Now we're now we're making some moves. I hope you guys enjoy the uh the green tinge that's coming from the right side of uh the office here. That is the bullish forces. The red forces over here. uh has been overtaken by the green plant. So, we're actually green on both sides. I'm wearing a green watch. Uh there's all kinds of things uh that are green happening in this office. And I hope you guys are rocking and rolling with us as always here today. Do a quick little check-in on the market.

Quick little check-in on the market. Bitcoin 79 holding up nicely. Zcash under the 800 mark. I think we will probably get some very short-term selling on that ETF product as uh it was converted from that closed end fund into the open-ended ETF. Uh I think we might see some reactions as a result of that. But we're going to bring up how Nan in just a moment. You guys know him well. He's been on the show multiple times. He's following Zack Pandle from Gayscale with the ETF, the Zcash ETF conversion from the Closent Trust. And so we're going to get into a little bit more on the stable coin forex conversation. Like

I said, you guys know how none Well, he's been on the show multiple times. CEO of Codeex, an Ethereum layer 2 built exclusively for stable coins. Went live in June 2025 with native USDC raised 15 mil from Dragonfly and uh Coinbase and Circle also in there. uh his bet is contrarian in a crowded field rather than chase transaction speed like tempo arc plasma stable codeex is targeting the fiat to stablecoin FX boundary as the real bottleneck and pointedly refuses a retail token or airdrop. Uh we know those opinions well. So it's uh always fun how Nan's always got some contrarian beliefs. I'm excited to get into it. I see he's ready in the back.

Let's go ahead bring him up. Howan, you're on the show live now. Welcome back man. It's good to see you. Hey man, good to see you. How have you been? >> I've been good, man. I mean, tides have uh turned a little bit since uh you know, we uh we last saw you in the Empire State. >> Yeah, I think everybody feels 50 IQ smarter. Uh I don't know if that's true or not, but people feel it that way. >> Great tweet last week from CMS was that we could feel the technology improving in real time. [laughter] And like you're saying, we're we're getting smarter and better capital allocators in real time as [laughter] well.

Well, how how have things been going on your end? What's the build been like? How's Kodak's doing? >> We're we're doing great. We uh just passed about a billion monthly uh dollars of transaction volume. Um you know, we're opening up new geographies to to serve customers in. There we go. >> And things are firing on all cylinders. >> Beautiful. Absolutely. Um and so take us through the the story a little bit. I mean, you know, what what we're seeing is that uh look, there's, you know, a few verticals in which there's, you know, primarily there the these few verticals are primarily benefiting from the legitimization of the industry. I'm sure you saw, you know, industry leaders up there with President Trump shaking hands. Next day, the CFTC is up there,

innovation advisory committee. So the industry is getting legitimized and it feels like stable coins is one of those verticals where it's the primary benefactor of the legitimization of the industry. You're seeing this firsthand. What has it been like? You know, just to see the the you know build out from the highest levels of finance. How have you guys been receiving this? >> Yeah. So I I think what you're seeing is that um people are regarding stable coins more and more as cash equivalents. Uh you know, you have cash in a bank account, you got stable coin in an address. people are increasingly think of these as equivalent things and as they think about them as equivalent things uh more and more people are choosing to transact in them and save in them and so on and so forth and so I think you're starting to see that our

corner uh of this sort of uh edge case of global finance is becoming more and more uh part of the mainstream and you know obviously at Codex we want to dominate this particular niche of uh making sure that we're the best place for people to do FX transactions between you know fiat and stables and uh you know we want to dominate this niche and we think this niche will end up eating all of traditional commerce as well and so uh that will produce one of the most important financial primitives of the 21st century. >> Absolutely. And and you know another thing we tend to say here on the show is that uh a dollar onchain tends to stay on chain and so you guys are helping bring dollars as well as other you know foreign exchange currencies onchain uh and then they they stay on chain from

there and they ultimately flow into the rest of the onchain economy. For anyone who's unfamiliar, maybe you could just remind everyone where Codeex sits in the stable coin flow, right? I I'd imagine you're, you know, towards the beginning, you know, as you help facilitate uh fiat into stable coins, but you know, please remind our audience on where exactly Codex uh fits and and you know, who are some of the customers that you help uh you know, with stable coins here? >> Yeah, so we typically face uh payment service providers through fintex. We're sort of a wholesale supplier of stable coins to them. to think if you're somebody who needs call half a million dollars of stable coins at a time, you know, we are the best people for you to call, uh, we'll get that to you as cheaply and as quickly as possible, um,

regardless of what kind of beginning currency you start in. Um, and so that's kind of where we sit in the stack. Obviously, this is one step kind of removed from uh the end business that is using the stable coins. Uh but given all the sort of demand of this uh that's sort of what's driving the kind of uh explosive growth we've been experiencing about 55% month. >> Yeah. And you know we saw uh you know Treasury Bessant Treasury Secretary Besson talked about $3 trillion of stable coins was a target that he had for this administration. How have you seen this build out? Do you think we're on pace? Do you think we're underpacing this? And where do you think are the next asset classes and business segments that are ripe for stable coin adoption?

>> Yeah, so uh I think Secretary Besson is extremely precient about what uh stable coins are about to do uh to kind of global commerce. Um and I think it's kind of in American interests and I guess as he runs Treasury and his interest um for stable coins to continue to proliferate. Why is that? Well, um, stable coins are backed, dollar stable coins are backed by US Treasury notes. And so the more stable coins there are, the more people are buying treasury notes. Said in finance jargon, it's you know, uh, stable coin issuance is a structural buyer of US treasuries that never goes away, right? And so, uh, this is great. You know, it's it means that we can compress the borrowing cost of the United States while simultaneously offering financial services to people that are underserved in in, uh, parts of

the world by the traditional financial system. Everybody gets to win, I think, which is why you're seeing these numbers go up and to the right. I think um out stable coins outstanding are actually flat this year so far, but um all the volume data we've seen is that it continues to inflct. And I think what's driving that is that um people are just using these instruments more, right? Not just as kind of um not just kind of as holding them in addresses. >> Yeah. You know, there was a big announcement from the Treasury that they're going to double the buybacks of the long end of the curve. And you know, the theory is that then they're going to sell a lot more shorterdated bills. And one of the ideas was that this would put pressure on Kevin Worsh and the Fed to absorb a lot of those bills. But do you

think stable coin issuing companies could be the ones to absorb a lot of those shortdated bills and the Fed, Kevin Worsh doesn't really need to do any sort of quantitative easing uh in order to facilitate Bessant strategy? >> Yeah, I think that that um the sort of deliberations of Kevin Worsh are maybe a bit above my pay grade. uh but you know I can uh comment a bit about stable coins uh being very hungry to buy more treasuries right so in so far as uh you know the United States government and uh you know uh the kind of relevant regulatory bodies continue to allow stable coins to proliferate they will get more and more of a structural bid for treasuries um it's just mechanical uh we saw oped in the Wall Street

Journal today saying something along the lines of um stable coin issuance may you know, be a driver of purchasing in treasuries. I mean, this is just too soft, right? It it absolutely will drive the purchase of more treasuries. It's uh it's just mechanical. Anybody who works in industry knows that one leads to the other. >> Yeah. Um you know, we've seen some pretty explosive moves off the lows as it pertains to uh you know, some of these tokens. you guys don't have a token out there live, but you know, there have been stable coin companies, Athena and Sky that have gotten pretty pretty, you know, really solid bids here off the lows. Do you think part of the reason why they've outperformed go on this recent move is because, you

know, this is primarily a macro liquidity story. the macro environment is becoming more accommodative and within the you know broad scope of onchain businesses that are driving revenue and acrewing value the stable coin segment of onchain businesses are specifically well positioned to benefit from this liquidity story >> I think you know um liquidity flows can drive valuations and market prices and certainly they've dominated sort of what is determining uh the marginal bidder of securities and tokens and so forth for the past decade or so. But I think it sure helps if there's a fundamental story. Um so I think the assets that we'll appreciate

the most are ones that both combine a fundamental story as well as one that can kind of absorb the uh the kind of flows based uh benefit of of uh these macro headwinds uh tailwinds. >> And so I think stable coins is like a narrative that's very easy to understand, right? It's look, it's a dollar on chain. It's clearly working. Um and so I think that's why you're seeing many of these instruments catch a bit. >> Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. I mean, and it's not just the onchain businesses. The revenue meta, as we call it, is one side of the barbell. Uh you know, there's obviously the hard money scarce assets on the other side of the barbell.

Bitcoin, Zcash, gold that that are doing extremely well. Anything that you you like here that is a little bit contrarian? You I know you love bringing the contrarian takes here, Hunan. I'm just curious there's anything that you know you think the the market is a little bit uh a little bit wrong about these days. >> Um I well I think I think some of the euphoria around the AI boom is starting to die down a little bit and I think that's a correct adjustment. I think um possibly one of my more controversial takes is it's not clear that anthropic and AI are particularly good businesses.

you know, these are incredibly capital intensive businesses that have, you know, marginal costs per serving each customer. And in a sense, it's not clear that they are just not some commodity layer wrapped around electricity. Um, and as you see these kind of Chinese models continue to still the frontier models very quickly and catch up. It's a bit like, you know, it takes you about six months to build a plane, but the other guy can build the plane in one month and for onetenth the price. Is it good to be in the plane business? um bit simplistic but I think uh we'll look back on this period of time and and uh it will remind us I think of the crypto L1 boom that I think is a very a very good comparison because uh you know we

obviously saw had the commoditization of blockspace and how that worked out and there's there's been some winners um but uh by and large the uh the the wide aperture and broad swath of these projects has uh has kind of come back to earth a little bit. Um, and so as uh Codex is building out more of this, you know, uh, stable coin ecosystem, stable coin stack, um, you know, you guys have, uh, some recent partnerships with GSR and KRWQ. Uh, actually spoke with the KRWQ guys recently. Uh, big fans of FRA here as well. And we had, uh, Sam from FRA and KRWQ on the show at the same time. Just curious, what is the nature of the partnership between KRWQ and Codeex? How

are you guys working together to ultimately expand the the footprint here for both Fracks and Codeex? >> So, we're we're always looking to work with uh you know, more stable coin partners. You know, you can think of us as sort of um every issuers's best friend and that we help them um get folks into using their new stable coin, converting between their stable coin and other types of stable coin. [snorts] Um, and so, you know, that's kind of generally the way we we work with many folks in the in the ecosystem. We're um we're stable coin agnostic, right? We're uh willing to work with anybody and uh the main job of us we see is kind of eliminating the fragmentation.

So, uh it's in the interest of many issuers to issue stable coins. Um but you know, users don't want to deal with so many of these different balances and we want [snorts] to delete the difference between all these different denominations. So, you still think it's the it still makes sense for there to be a multi-stable coin world? We're not just going to consolidate around a couple, but it requires protocols like Codex to help kind of make sense of this multi-stable coin world, >> I think. So, um maybe another maybe a more provocative way of saying this is uh the person that wants another dollar stable coin to exist the most is the issuer. Uh the new issuer wants fervently for another stable coin to

exist. It's not clear that customers necessarily want more stable coin dollar stable coins to exist. Uh there are already a couple scaled alternatives that work reasonably well and um it creates a lot of these UX problems that you know we're able to come and help mitigate. >> Yeah, very cool. Um all right, Han, I mean this is kind of what we're seeing. Uh there's you know a rise of stable chains as well. We've talked Tempo, Arc, Plasma, Stable. You guys have chosen to go against this route. Maybe you can just talk about what you expect to see of these protocols. Do you think they'll do well or do you think they're going to fall to the same block space commoditization alternative L1 trade that we're seeing play out?

>> I think there's smart folks working at that layer. I think um our approach to this is listen to what the customer wants. And when a customer lists the sort of top three things that they're most worried about or that are most painful for them, we don't think those are addressable at the chain level and we think those are actually liquidity or forex issues. And so that's why we chose to build where we're choosing to build in the stack. Um, and I think you're seeing the fruits of that approach so far. Uh, you know, sort of the volumes processed through codeex are significantly larger than even some of the most prominent uh, stablecoin chains. And um, I think time will tell.

Yeah, I mean you guys are doing hundreds of millions of dollars which is very very cool in volume. Um you know another another uh area that I've heard more conversation around in recent times has been the forex market. Um I and you know I think some of these guys are doing this around the stable coin forex market where you know it's kind of maybe one layer deeper into the ecosystem where they've already tokenized it and they're kind of providing liquidity competitive rates uh between euro stable coins and US dollar stable coins for example. When you talk about Forex, I think you're talking about it one layer removed where it's even before these things are into stable coins and it's more like the

foreign exchange in the fiat world because once it lands on chain, it predominantly ends up landing in the US dollar denominated stable coins. Maybe you can just help us understand what the progression has been of the forex industry as stable coins have gotten bu you know built out, tokenization has gotten built out. How is the forex industry starting to enter this market? >> Yeah, so u the way we think about it is we don't care if it's an onchain swap or an offchain swap. If involves fiat or stables, we we don't really care. All we care about is how do we provide the cheapest and fastest experience to the customer. And so if the cheapest and fastest path is through another stable coin, absolutely we'll do it. If it's

through some other means, we'll do those means. Whatever is creates the best experience for customer is what we'll do. And so we're totally agnostic. So um there are some stable coins today where actually the cheapest way to access that liquidity is on chain via DAX or a DEX aggregator. These are mostly um more fringe stable coins. I think for mainstream stable coins that's not the case. And uh for those for in those cases where it does make more sense, we will go through the onchain version of it. Absolutely. >> Do you have a couple examples? Just curious like when you say fringe stable coins they take it. These are not US dollar denominated. What are a couple of routes that make sense where it's actually better execution to do it onchain than offchain?

>> Some of these are actually dollar denominated. Uh and I since I've uh applied the adjective fringe to them, maybe I won't name a specific specific coin. I don't want to offend anybody. But um yeah, like for some of these uh stable coin routes, it actually makes more sense to go on chain already. But uh for for bulk actually it it doesn't today, right? And so what we think how we think about constructing a business is we need to prepare for a world where the onchain routes are the most efficient routes uh but not kind of blindly stumble into it before the conditions are ready. Uh I think you know people talk about directional arrow progress. It's very clear in the in the medium to long term that uh onchain venues will be the deepest and cheapest most liquid form of place to do FX. It

is not the case today uh for most pairs and so we got to be pragmatic about that. I think crypto has learned its lesson on being too biological. >> Yeah. And so one of the conversations we were having earlier in the show today was around tokenized equities and this announcement from Coinbase and there was a tweet that the execution of I believe it was Google on aerodrome in this case was beating execution price of Google on interactive brokers. And now this was during offmarket hours, but it was actually I mean, you know, we all like to speculate that this would happen one day, but to see it one day after the launch of tokenized equities was it was pretty interesting to see. And so I'm

just curious if you think that is going to start to be reflected in the forex market as well, where you know the the best price, the best execution of doing a forex swap is it's actually going to be better to do that swap on chain via stable coins than it is in the forex market. I mean, it took one day to do that, you know, after this tokenized equities announcement. How long and how how far away do you think we are from doing this in the forex market on chain? >> We think um we think that word will come and we think that's a really beautiful business to actually be in, right?

Because you don't have to deal with any of the fiat gunk. You just kind of sit there and be the most liquid venue of these stable coin swaps. It's it's fantastic. It's I can't think of more elegant or profitable business than that. Um, I think some of the blockers that are facing us before we get there are quality issuers of non-dollar stable coins. Um, again, no names, but in in many places the issuers of these non-dollar stable coins are are not all that reliable. They don't have particularly good banking rails. Uh, they're not really viable partners to work with. Uh, I think we're starting to see the rise of a a new set of issuers for these non-doll stable coins that are quality partners. these are um you know banks and uh other uh viable financial institutions that want to get in on this

game and so uh I think once you see those blockers unlock and they're form there's enough liquidity formation I think you will see all this stuff shift over to onchain rails >> makes sense is there any particular currencies that you know you're just you're just hungry for you see the demand is there um you know but but you just don't see a a viable issuer what what are the currencies that come to Uh maybe I won't name specific countries given you given my remarks before but like I think uh I think there there's maybe I'll focus on the good stuff right like I think there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in Asia uh in Hong Kong Korea I think there's some new issues coming out that are really interesting >> very cool awesome well Hanan didn't mean

to put you on the spot there but appreciate your takes as always uh you're doing great work there in the stable coin space and it it's like I said it's a segment that we believe is uh well positioned to be a primary benefactor of the legitimization of the entire industry. So, uh, kudos to you for recognizing that and, uh, yeah, thanks so much for, uh, for spending the time today, man. >> Thanks, Robbie. Good to see you. See you in New York. >> Yeah, likewise. See you in New York, man. Catch you soon. All right, that's it, guys. Hanom was our, uh, uh, last, but certainly not least, guest for the today's show. And so, uh, I mean, you guys heard from Han on the stable coin world, Zack Pandle on the Grayscale Zcash ETF side, uh, Alex on the Aer Drrome tokenized equity side. Like, I

mean, guys, this is, you know, th this this show today is an indication of where the industry is headed, right? It's stable coins. It's traditional finance getting into hard assets via ETFs, right? And then ultimately it is the buildout of those assets on chain and the propagation of those funds on chain. It is tokenized equities and it is shared liquidity protocols right and coordinated liquidity that is ultimately providing best execution of those equities onchain better than some of those off-chain brokerages that have been servicing this industry the equities industry for decades. Onchain in its first day is starting to beat price execution of those asset classes.

So, incredible things happening. You guys see it, we see it, we all see it together. It is the legitimization of the industry and it is the tokenization super cycle that all of these sectors are benefiting from and we are going to make sure that you are a primary benefactor of this adoption as well. Continue to tune in day in day out. We're going to be here. We want you guys to be here along with us and we're going to tell you guys everything that you need to know for out performance. So, we'll be here same time tomorrow. We've got another great lineup and uh we will see you guys there. Don't go anywhere.

We'll be right back tomorrow on the rollup. Peace, guys. [music]