Liquid Restaking Tokens: Crypto's Next Timebomb? | Analyst Round Table

Transcript

if we're going to start seeing like high value nfts migrating to bitcoin over ethereum like how ethereum had crypto punks like I could see something like node monkeys or maybe it's the frogs being the actual like the blue chip nft of this cycle and um my cat just screamed in the background but uh what's up everyone welcome back to another episode of zerx research March is just around the corner and I want to make sure to give you a quick reminder to not top tick your prices of your D London tickets if you use codes 0x10 at checkout you can lock in a 10% discount on your ticket don't miss out on your chance to get ahead of the curve I'll see you in London what's up everyone

welcome back to another episode of zerox research the blockworks research team is back to bring you another episode of an analyst Round Table this week we are joined by Ren and zerox pibbles and today is January 8th Dan why don't you kick us off with a little bit of uh what's going on in the market with a News segment yeah for sure it's uh you we're recording this on Monday the 8th and we haven't heard any approval ETF news yet but of course the last week I mean the last few months but really in the last week it's been non-stop ETF news um so shout out to the Bloomberg fellas Eric and uh James they they keep me up to date with what's actually going on uh there's another guy Scott I I need to tag all three of them in the show notes for this episode just because I

found them super super helpful obviously I spend no time in the infrastructure level of the ETF market so it's been useful to know what these filing means what these filings mean as they come in and kind of where we are at the market so you know they've been calling 90% for a while uh I think recently that's probably been bumped up to like 95% and now we're somewhere hovering around 99% the seems like all of the filing level work is done at this point we just got updated fee metrics for I think all 11 of the issuers um and that's really what the the latest round of news that came through today was was exactly about the fees so we see we saw pretty good price war going on here which is very interesting that we'll get into but quickly on the

numbers um you know it seems that fees are ranging somewhere between like 20 bips and 50 bips uh on AUM and that uh this uh don't quote me on this but I looked I did I literally Googled this so again don't quote me on this but it seems that uh the way they charge fees on ETFs is by decreasing the AUM by the daily fee rate uh so obviously the headline numbers are annualized but taking the daily fee rate and decreasing the a so the the or excuse me the uh the net net asset value which is the redeemable value of the share uh so that kind of is interesting to see that gets acred on a daily basis um but nonetheless you know we're ranging between 20 0.2 and 0.5% with bitwise coming in at the low end of

0.24% um a lot of these guys are waving fees for the first six months or until they hit a AUM Milestone which is pretty interesting and that's really the question right now is now that we've seen that they're all low priced fees this means everyone has to sell the out of these things to make any money on them and that's kind of why I think bitwise probably went with the the lowest end of the spectrum you know we'll have to get those guys back on here some point down the line and and talk to them but my reading the Tea Leaves of their actions being the lowest uh priced ETF is this could be a huge marketing thing for them they could use this fund uh you know if they do win out in the market then they can use their fund uh to kind of win the marketing war

in some sense and this helps them sell other business whereas maybe somebody like Black Rock I think their fees were around 0 three I want to say I'm not looking at the table right now so if anyone has that up please chime in but somewhere around the neighborhood of 0.3% and they you know they want to make money off this that's their goal they don't need this to be a marketing tool this is just another uh weapon in the belt if you will for them to make M for them to make money but with fees this this low as a whole again they're gonna have everyone's going to be selling the hell out of this this ETF um which is you know there's long crypto Twitter has long wanted trafi to come and shield their bags and it really does seem like we are in that era

now yeah I think all right it's loading um but black Rox fee is down to sorry I'm doing this live it's 0.2% after the uh before the waiver but 0.3% normally so so pretty low um I think out of all of these probably the Shocker is gray scale uh they're choosing to have a fee of 1.5% which is like basically an order of magnitude larger than everyone else but you have to remember that gray skill has 27 billion in AUM in their gbtc product and they're basically making a bet that not a lot of people are gonna switch their ETF issuer I'm not sure how true that is

especially if it's like I just go to my brokerage account I click Like redeem and then I click Like I want to ape into this other ETF uh but I think they'll probably milk it for a while given that black Rock's probably going to win this competition I mean like if you're tradire institution black rock is like the like big tradire institution like they might as well be the forarm of the government at this point and so you can't really compete with them on like sort of the brand name there and so you you just milk your existing holders for a while I know Gary Gensler tweeted this morning about the risk of investing in crypto assets and to me that really makes it seem like a done deal um the deadline this morning was 8: a.m.

eastern for any last minute fouling so they probably need some time to go through all of the fings to make sure there's nothing wrong but you know there's only really two more days left for the SEC to come out and make a decision for all of this I think another interesting tweet that I saw from maybe Mike was that like everyone's going to lower the fees on the Bitcoin ETF but then they're going to use that as a Gateway for higher fees on other ETFs whether that's like a DM ETF or say like a salana or like a Avalanche or like a madic ETF and those would be higher fees whereas like sort of the Bitcoin ETF is kind of like your $5 R three Chicken N Costco you know um so yeah just a few points yeah it's interesting too

everyone's already jumping to the eth ETF narrative kind of sealing the deal on the Bitcoin one I think it would be kind of ironic if uh you know that that ends up not actually getting approved um I think that could just be like a really bearish headwind that people are really calculating is like a bullish Tailwind um but I I really don't think an eth ETF is like solidified at all at this point not saying anyone is saying that it is I just know a lot of people are banking on that becoming a narrative don't kill our hopes and dreams like that not only will it be an e eth ETF but it will be a staked eth ETF generating yield which is true trafy cream of the crop so that's what we're

going to get but get the bitwise guys back on yeah I know I'd love to get their take because last time we had them on we asked something to the effect of like all right you know last year was We only care about Bitcoin now it's expanded to okay this e thing sounds cool and so like the next logical expansion of that is oh this yield on this e thing sounds cool but last time we chatted with them they're like no like we're not there yet right now if you're allocating to crypto it's like sub five% of your portfolio and like only a portion of that would be eth and you're buying you know say that eth is a half percent of your portfolio that's being bought to go to 1% or 0er percent right you're trying to drop

double your your your value and if you don't do that like whatever and so you're not if you're going for a 100% gain you don't really care to get 3% yield on that so that was kind of their take on it which I do get with uh I can get behind that but over the long run I think you know that'll slowly transition into to people becoming more and more degenerate as we've seen in this market very closely moving on we have ether scan acquired Soul scan so Soul scan is one of the more popular block explorers on salana and of course ether scan is the block Explorer for ethereum uh and most of ethereum or evm related uh chains and so everyone's super comfortable with using ether scan Soul scan isn't great

but it does sort of have a bit of the network effects and so a lot of people are saying all right well I know I know and love ether scan now they bought Soul scan so maybe I can actually for once in my life read a salon of block Explorer uh you know that's kind of interesting because I've spent a lot of time in the salon of data and I've touched every single block Explorer out there I will say uh salana FM recent recently released their latest block Explorer which is a revamp from the first thing they had uh it's called Quantum and it is 10 out of 10 that's my personal favorite block Explorer I do recommend you check it out if you're trying to understand Sal transactions or something that happened on chain but I will say on the whole Sal is just a completely

different constructure right it's it really is the E evm versus the svm it's just totally different and so when you're going and using these block explorers you can't just like even though ether scan acquired Soul scan you maybe the UI looks a little friendlier or something you're familiar with but understanding the how the value moved through that transaction is truly just totally different um so it does kind of take a new skill that just requires repetition in the same way everybody learned how to use ether scan I didn't realize that ether skan was so well funded that they could actually do like an acquisition of sorts like I I kind of thought like I know this is like not really the case anymore but Wikipedia back in the day was like maybe going to shut down because they didn't have enough money but now they

just keep that like donate or this is going to get shut down button there into perpetuity and they really are well funded but uh yeah I guess I just thought The Ether scan was like more of a public good but looking back in hindsight I'd be curious to see the amount of Grants they've gotten from like the optimism foundation and the retroactive public goods funding and like other sorts of Revenue that they've been able to bring in because aside from the API that's paid that they had I just didn't know they had like a sustainable long-term business model so that's pretty cool to see actually yeah I've uh I've personally used the API and it works great but again I I didn't really know I know they charg like chains like uh not too long ago Avalanche was the one that pivoted off of The Ether scan for in favor of

the route scan deployment built by oh gosh I feel terrible blinking on their name but it is rout scan uh Jack is I think the the CEO over there he's he's the man um so I think that was driven by the high cost to have an ether scan deployment um and rout scan is honestly a great deployment as well I'm a fan of what that team has built uh with the new Avalanche Explorer uh so would recommend checking that out so be interesting to see how that kind of goes forward but nonetheless moving on we have Stark net Community has voted yes to activate Stark Net v version 0.13 which makes the STK the Stark token eligible as a gas token um surely this is like the first step in the path to

launching the token uh and it'll be interesting to see if that actually goes live but I personally have never used Stark net I'm maybe outing myself a bit but uh now there's so many damn l2s it takes a dedicated effort to go explore a new chain um and that's true for every chain so I've personally spent my time going to other new chains over in the cosmos using salana and the different applications over there that I've actually never made it over to Stark net and also part of that is it's along with ZK sync it is so heavily farmed that it's like all right like it's not even worth the personal time to try to go farm this myself I'd actually be going to use an interesting application over there uh which is another problem for Sark Stark net so I'm curious if anyone

has any counter counter Arguments for that one I almost went over there and bought that Al token when it was like 300K but I saw you had to set up a new wallet I said maybe this weekend and then it ran so that's my Stark net experience of not going over there I'm curious if any other chains especially like major L2 stash rups are going to start allowing use of like their own like native token whether that's like AR for AR or op for Optimus um my gut feeling is no because that complicates things especially in terms of like gas management you know you need to have enough uh e on like the contract

on the L1 to pay for whatever fees you pay as a roll up and then you need to like manage the Aro like op it just seems intuitively a lot easier to receive your Revenue in E and also pay it out in e but on the other hand you could also make this argument that you know for example if you turn the gas token into your native token like op then people may view May view it as like better value of crew because there's more like buying pressure even though you would basically need to sell that for e in order to pay off the cost on the L1 so I think don't have a strong strong opinion on this I think it helps give the token a form of money and all s

incentivization to provide like deep liquidity on the L2 for that native token so I think there's a lot of benefits even though underneath the hood it's literally the exact same thing as using eth it's just like a ux and I guess like narrative thing yeah I I think we're going to see a lot more of this too right because you know if you play out the RO the rash driven you know role up as a service driven uh launches that are coming on a long enough time Horizon not even that long even next two quarters we're going to have hundreds if not thousands of more rollups and each of those will likely have their own token um and so now what like if you're launching your own rollup you have to make this ux

decision and this utility decision around your token is it just some pure pseudo Equity token or is it some like utility driven form of money or is it somewhere in the middle uh and we haven't really seen l2s on the whole figure out what model is going to work so I I think it's a net positive if it's just an option to execute uh transactions which it seems like this is the case but if I was launching a new rollup today I would absolutely not make the sole gas token my own token that sounds like an absolute nightmare now if you have thousands of rollups you have thousands of tokens that you have to own and can't interact with and everybody's been stuck in that position where you send assets

to a new chain because you're quickly trying to buy something or just trying to honestly you're not even in a rush and then you send your usdc there first or whatever and now you don't have the gas token now you're like I got to run another transaction just to be able to use this thing um so I think it's a net positive if you're doing some sort of account abstraction model and it's just an additional gas token um but I I'm pretty against it if it's just going to be the sole token uh but I guess the real point there is l2s are GNA have to figure out a rups on the whole are going to have to figure out what their token is trying to do in my personal view I think we're going to see a very small number of tokens get this like money

like valuation uh where it's a bit of a heads scratcher as to how it gets that valuation it's more of like a commodity it's very driven by demand and Supply you know thinking Bitcoin eth and then maybe either Solana or Tia like that that's kind of the direction I see that going and then you're going to get like these l2s like say arbitrum optimism or even some of the more modular ones like Eclipse uh or anything launching on a Ras provider like you're probably going to see a more like pseudo Equity token where maybe you're collecting profits from user transactions and redistributing those to users or something like that's kind of the direction I think about it but curious if you guys have any thoughts on what L2 tokens or rollup tokens more generally

should be how how people should think about like what those tokens do personally speaking I think they make a lot of sense to decentralize a sequencer set I also would like to see more collaboration between the l2s native token and like core developers and actual dap developers like I think it would be cool if there's some pers protocol at and you stake the native token to get some yield but then if you also have that l2's native token stake then you get a boost I just think that'd be a good way to align the two together and like considering you're going to be getting grants as a project in the native token it makes sense to give value to that native token so that way your incentives are worth more um but I think we're like very much in like

Innings one and two in like the design space for L2 tokens and bringing them utility I think tokens overall I feel like this is that like explored yet but tokens should be seen sometimes as like membership tokens so to say so I know like we keep on H having this running joke that like if you have like x amount of shares of like apple you should be able to buy like a iPhone and like a y% discount or if you own like I don't know like one share of Tesla you should be able to put on you should be put on like the newest Tesla Model like weight list and I kind of think that model makes a lot of sense whether you are like a L2 or a dab so some way I see this potentially playing out I'm not sure how

possible it is actually um but you stick like a certain number of like op tokens or op tokens and if you hit a certain threshold you get like a 10% fee discount if you hit the next threshold you get like a 20% fee discount and if you hit like the crazy VIP Mega whe threshold you get like a 50% discount and obviously like someone will have to run the numbers and make sure that the L2 itself remains like net profitable but I do think like people should start thinking about that and I agree with Sam that just like decentralizing a sequencer set is probably like the next large utility of like a L2 token Beyond governance yeah ran I think those are great points as well and speaking of tokens we have two more airdrops that

have been announced first was the Manta airdrop uh so Manta is a rollup built through Caldera is a rollup as a service uh provider or a Ras provider uh and they are using the op stack as well and so they just announced their token air drop and that will be going to Tia stakers Tia stakers are consistently winning here uh I don't know if this is this is almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy of TS stakers getting these air drops like crypto Twitter really spoke this one into existence uh which is pretty funny to see and the other one we heard was the zai or xai airdrop which is an arbitrum orbit train and this one will be claimable on Tuesday so this is a pretty hyped gaming specific chain Sam I know you were pretty excited about

this one so can you shed some extra light on Zai yeah for sure it's just a uh arbitrum orbit L3 and I think they're actually dabbling in some parallel processing now I know it's like a really early stage product and um they basically did like a Sentry node sale because they're really trying to lean into like the decentralized validator set type deal and those keys are going for you know 10x what they were uh initially on the Node sale so very hyped project I know a lot of people on our team have been looking at it a lot closer than I have I think arbitrum makes a lot of sense especially as an L3 for a gaming ecosystem considering the amount of liquidity and users there but uh yeah you know how gaming is it takes a lot of time to build out a good game and I know

all of us are still waiting for that that first killer game that we all want to play every day and get super lost in yeah I think there's there's a lot to be excited about on the gaming front um we're we're still so early would give a self-plug to our episode with Scott sardo the co-founder of Argus that is a phenomenal episode uh really gives a good overview of what they're building and why it's relevant for people building crypto games but maybe we move on to a segment of Hot Seat cool Throne uh let's go Ren I'll throw things over to you first man what you got sure I have a hot seat this week um it's LRT Mania I feel like every day I log on on Twitter I see like a new reaking

protocol with some new version of points programs and I I wouldn't say like I have any like gripes it's just like the market doing Market and people giving what people want especially in terms of point but it seems like no one really has a clear idea of like the risk around like lrts and sort of free staking as a whole and no one really has figured out like composability right like just looking off this list there's like Renzo protocol there's kelow there's .5 there's restake Finance there's per Finance There's real Network and there's probably like a few more that I'm missing you know it's just a lot of l l protocols each of them have their own

liquid reaking token and each one of these liquid reaking tokens has a different node operator set or like is helping to validate different abss you know and so you reach this point where each LRT represents different level of risk and thus theoretically like each LRT should be priced differently and then you need to start thinking about like liquidity for these lrts decentralized exchanges whereas if you compare that to like liquid staking tokens right like those are pretty easy to compare because they're only really doing one thing they're helping to secure like the core ethereum protocols to like the proof of State chain whereas for these lrts you know right now

they're technically not even doing anything like no e whether that's like natively restak in n l or like any LST that's staked in N they're not like securing anything because abss aren't live I da isn't live so they're just like sitting there but they're points still so um but it just feels like a really messy situation I feel like at some point we're going to need like an L2 beat for lrts just to disclose like every single risk whether that's like slashing risk or like no operator risk around the specific RT token you're holding and I think at some point I don't want to say this is going to implode but it's going to reach like a serious Tipping Point right something's

going to happen there's going to be a lot of drama on the timeline the slashing company's gonna have to make like probably the largest like social consensus decision that ethereum has ever seen whether that's I don't know like a bridge blowing up or like a orac or doing like something wacky um to be honest I don't have a good solution launching like an LT protocol is just like something that was very very obvious and you know would be coming and it's kind of like the early AUM Wars of like the BTC ETF like before like the ETF is launched everyone wants to line up like the AUM to be like the go-to player and there's obvious Network ref Flex that come into play once you have a larger LRT especially in terms of like whether that's incentives or like

Dex liquidity um but yeah people should probably start thinking about like Risk trenching what exposure you have to while holding it LRT but don't just a do it for the points yeah it was uh will shean had the he's the founder of parseek finances a great uh data driven platform for onchain data and he had a great tweet the other day that was uh like something to the effect of permissionless markets are going to be permissionless and people are going to build things whether you want them to or not uh the point being that blockchain's their superpower of the superpower of blockchains is quite simple it's transparency you can now see where the risk is building up in the in

the system and have that be a factor in your decision-making process uh on on on whether or not you participate in this ecosystem right so if we this is probably a really silly comparison but just bear with me for a second so housing crisis of 2008 there weren't that many people that knew this was becoming a problem until after the problem had exploded uh but if you kind of map that same logic onto you know uh just adding leverage into the system uh for igen layer and this reaking narrative then at least you can see and measure the risk in real time of course we don't really know what those risk boundaries are like at what point are we

in the extreme danger zone right like that's kind of a a touch and feel thing rather than like being able to yeah because we haven't experienced something like this before um for me I'm still honestly a little bit confused on like what risks I can layer poses right like okay so the mass mass slashing events seem you know surface level very dangerous but I don't get how that like let's say there's a mass slashing event on igen layer how does that end up impacting ethereum because to me that would be where the issues lie so Ry I hope you can you provide any unpacking on this question because to me it' be like the other way around so these lsts have eth secured by validators on chain

if there was a mass slashing event on the ethereum base layer then I see how like the the risk would flow Upstream because now all of these tokens that are securing things are all of a sudden less valuable and so you have less security and like that I could see the issue flowing Upstream but I don't really get how it flow back Downstream to ethereum um I never admittedly read vitalics like don't uh over leverage ethereum consensus post but I would guess the answer is awaiting for me in there ren do you have any Clarity on that I would say that I don't have a huge amount of clarity to and whatever I say next please double check my answer um but for example if like a slashing event occurs on I layer realistically

for the next one or two year um the first thing that will happen is whether the slashing committee decides that they want to sort of go ahead with the slashing I think the slashing commity is formed of 12 individuals and they have the power to vetto any sashing and basically say okay this sashing isn't happening just we go back to normal but for example if a stashing did occur right and say it was specific for one ABS then theoretically I do like the native e that's been restak into ion layer or the lsts like those of draw Keys like it's not actually stashed in the sense of like etherum stashing where

it's like burned and just disappears off the face of the Earth it's more so that someone is basically holds like access to that underlying e and they're able to like if they want to burn it but if not like for example they could take it redeem the LSD and use it as compensation for an attack that occurred on their middleware protocol for example right so technically it's not like the amount of e occurring the base like layer of ethereum disappears it's not burned um but theoretically it should be taken away from the amount of e that's basically like securing ethereum as a

there if that makes sense um so either way if a sashing event happens I do think it quote unquote decreases like the amount of Economic Security of ethereum oh a slashing event on on yeah it does theoretically decrease the economic security of Eve that's like securing ethereum but I also think you see a world where it's possible that like there's a lot of people that have exposure to LRT and that's not securing ethereum but you are just securing like I abss I'm not sure what that like breakdown looks like it's all a bit messy to be honest

but if you ask anybody today that's like a normal crypto participant like how do you define risk or how do you define the amount of Leverage in the system from Ian layer right I don't think anyone has a good answer and I think someone should probably start working on like a transparent way to track that I'm sure there's like researchers like working on that question right now um but just like a transparent way for like normies to understand that question would also be really really good because like no one has any clue what's going on realistically right now I definitely agree with you that transparency is only valuable if we know how to interpret the data that we're looking at uh and that's a bit of an unanswered question so who

knows maybe we'll spend our time doing that but I've I'm going to throw another curveball at you so if I'm a solo Staker and I solo stake and restake through igen layer I know I like give I have to like essentially deposit my withdrawal key to Igan layer where do those keys go and what happens if I get fully slashed like do they just burn the withdrawal keys if you get footy stash on I get yeah if you get footy slashed on I if you get slashed on ION as like a solo stier so you're basically giving like the withdrawal credentials and pointing that to the

Igan contract I don't think you have to because there's like partal withdrawals and there's full withdrawals so I'm not sure how it works if you get like slash say like 10 e like would you just have to like withdraw that okay say say you're a solo Saker you have 30 32 e um which is like the sort of like the minimum balance for an ethereum validator today you restake that into ion by pointing your withdrawing credentials to the ion contract and some slashing event happens for 10 e right I don't think you can withdraw 10 e as like e inv validator today it's either like All or

Nothing um and either way like if we withd draw 10 e your balance goes from 32 e to 22 e right and you wouldn't be if you invited do it anymore cuz there's a 30 to e minimum right but I think what would happen is when I let's say I got slash for 10 eth as the validator then when I go to withdraw uh the the 32 eth would move from the beacon chain to the igen layer smart contract on ethereum and then I would only get 22 back yeah I think that's what would happen and ion would keep the 10 do do whatever they want with it whether that's like compensating a AVS for like something that went wrong or anything else but in the example of the full slash right then I am running a box in my basement that

is validating the chain that is still an active validator even though I've been slashed and is now like worthless to me so doesn't that create like I don't know if they instantly withdraw like kick you from the queue if you get or from the active set if you get slashed like because they do own the withdrawal keys so theoretically you get full slashed and then immediately get ejected got I don't I don't know what that looks like but that seems like a problem I'm sure they've definitely thought about this uh we just don't know the answer yeah I I've definitely like read something about this before like how does the core ethereum protocol know that a slashing event occurred on ire and there's definitely an answer for this I just cannot remember it off the top of my

head and on top of all that stuff that you guys just talked about which is much more technical I'm honestly concerned about just pegs I mean even during uh May of 2022 if I'm remembering my dates correctly when like FTX and everything and uh Ste egged like that thing went down to like 88 cents like if you're taking a derivative on top of a restak LST like that could get ugly pretty quickly and I think that's the most probable outcome for like just in terms of like poor ux and something people are more likely to run into I think that these pegs are going to be pretty tough to maintain I'll double down on what Sam mentioned there I think the looped leverage like stake def trade where you

just like Loop stake def on a or some other like Ling Market infinitely didn't really exist last cycle and I guarantee you that like if a LT has significant Network effects or like significant amount of liquidity then a money market will list it and at some point right we're going to tough uh for this Market cycle and everyone's going to want to like sell back their e for usdc and all of those like Stak thief or like Leverage like RS whatever like all of that's going to need to be unwinded or Unwound and there's just not going to be enough liquidity on chain and I think we're going to see like this like Black Swan event at some point where like pegs

go like pretty disgustingly low I think they recover like pretty fast but I do think at some point they will there'll be like a pretty big de pegging event probably towards the later stage of the market cycle near the top also I think another thing with ien layer is that like fees right you know like you have maybe your node operated charging fees and maybe like ioner is going to charge fees and then your LRT protocol is going to charge fees like at some point it's probably going to add up to like 15% on all of the rewards and I I feel like there's probably not going to be a lot of transparency around those fees too so there there's a lot of open questions like node operators are going to need to

choose what abs is to run stakers going to have to choose like how to measure their yield do they want it in like US dollar basis or like do they want to compare everything to Eve ion is going to support dual token staking so you know like maybe some node operators going to have to restake e and also like the native token and operators for example are going to run into their own challenges where they may need to charge higher fees depending on the complexity of the abss that they choose to participate right so say like one ABS has like a crazy high validator Hardware requirement that requires like 10x the opx right whereas another ABS has like a normal amount of opxs how do you like

select like a gen generic fee for your LRT there's just like a lot of questions that remain to be answered I'm sure the answers are out there but not a lot of people have a good idea yeah and that could honestly be an interesting top signal for the for the upcoming cycle I uh it'll probably a late one and one you wish you knew before it happened but an IG layer like ABS blowup or huge slashing event or reaking drama is probably something we see at the top of the cycle what's up everyone March is approaching fast and I want to give you another reminder not to miss out on Das London it is coming it's right around the corner and it's in March from the 18th to the 20th we have three full days of content this is your chance to bump shoulders with some of

the world's top Executives and have open dialogue with both attendees and speakers we're going to be f focusing on a range of topics that I'll let Ren discuss for you first on the list we have Bitcoin Catalyst the Haring and spot ETF next we have a view from the buy side from investors on things like strategy portfolio allocation and more we also have a topic on Ras tokenization and stable points which I think we can all agree are going to pay a large root in crypto future we'll also talk about global regulatory Frameworks like compliance best practices and the evolution of global standards that is shaping the global investment landscape we'll also have someone from the institutional front to talk talk about infrastructure such as Banking and payments with financial giants like visa and JP Morgan and last on the list the macro case for digital assets so don't

miss out on this Monumental event seats are limited so be sure to register today by hitting the link in the description and using the promo code 0x10 to save 10% on tickets see you in London but xerx pibbles who you got in the hot seeder cool Throne this week yeah so far away from the tech that's been in the hot seat uh I'm talking about node monkeys as the cool throne and it very simple dep pixelated monkey picture um they they did Super well over the past two weeks it was a super nice uh minting experience but they've done about 45 mil in volume in two weeks and floor Peak around like 12K per monkey

they're saying like 10K per monkey now but um I think it's like a it's a really cool experiment on bitcoin to see like like if we're going to start seeing like high value nfts migrating to bitcoin over ethereum like how ethereum had crypto punks like I could see something like node monkeys or maybe it's the frogs being the actual like the blue chip nft of the cycle and um my cat just screamed in the background but uh so we have like the one of the co-founders of Yuga Labs bought a monkey and posted it like right after he tweeted about it like they just started ripping some more and it's funny

because like the history of node monkeys was not great so they they inscribed the monkeys between like the 80k 100K 110k sat range in February of 20123 they didn't launch till December because they wanted the infrastructure to get built out a lot better because it was freaking awful to do anything on bitcoin back then um so there's like it was was originally supposed to be a free mint and then they claimed that someone offered them 5 million seed funding and they denied it they're like no it's a free mint and they're like wait we're going to do a paid Min and we're going to donate everything to charity and then they went back on that too and then they

did a paid Min that's a Dutch auction and they gave like a percentage to charity I think I'm not really sure um but overall like no monkeys being the most successful profile picture sure on bitcoin is a super interesting way to start off the year especially with the ETF coming in and I'm really excited to see like how the Bitcoin nft ecosystem or orinal ecosystem continues to grow throughout the year you mentioned it was a super smooth uh like I think it was a Dutch auction can you talk just a bit about what that looked like and like how does that work on bitcoin considering there's no smart contracts yeah so it was like a highly

centralized Dutch auction um but it started with at like maybe like 08 Bitcoin or one Bitcoin was like the starting price and it would decline like every few blocks and once you paid whatever the like the closing price of the monkeys when they sold out was that's the price that you got anything over was it was refunded to your wallet so it was all done by like the node monkey team so like if you bid at the very beginning they cleared at a price of like .003 Bitcoin then they would just like they would give you like whatever you got Worth or like whatever Bitcoin you put in you'd get that many mfts and if there was like an odd number out they would just refund it to you but

this was super good for Bitcoin because the transactions are so slow and it let it kept it from being like a spammed or gamed mint where just a bunch of bots set up and like spiked the ordinal fee really high and just like ruined the minting experience in the distribution so because of the Dutch auction method that they used I think it really helped the like the overall mechanics of node monkeys on secondary markets I do think that there's something to be said at least like from a perception perspective of like nfts on bitcoin just cuz like Bitcoin is seen as like a limited Supply

token and you think about like s on bitcoin uh then you like perceive them as like even more like limited you know like it's really hard to inscribe nft on bitcoin especially one with like a earlier set and I think that that kind of shows in like the minor Revenue right um if you take a look at our Bitcoin dashboard on our fantastic analytics product minor revenue from Total transaction fees has hit a monthly all-time high it's hit a high of 336.00 million in fees compared to the previous alltime high of 21.4% and most importantly if you look at the percentage breakdown in minor

Revenue right um in the month of December transaction fees made up roughly 21.5% of minor Revenue whereas in the previous all-time high that was only 14.7% of total minor revenue and now ordinal make up 5.7% of minor revenue and just like at least on WeChat it seems like China's pretty heavily invested in the Bitcoin and ordino ecosystem you're seeing a lot of like VCS investing in ordino infrastructure whether that's amms or sort of like lending protocols or just like projects it it really seems like this is a personal thesis but I feel

like it's like a Bitcoin minor super cycle whereas for a sustained period of time you are going to see a very significant amount of transaction fees generated on bitcoin right for example in December I think Bitcoin generated more transaction fees than ethereum by like quite a large amount and I would not be surprised if there were a few months where that also happened again in 2024 and I don't think a lot of people are pricing that in if you look at one of those like ecosystem maps of like Bitcoin l2s ordinals inscriptions whatever like that has exploded in like the past few months yeah and an interesting data point there is like the the price to

inscribe inscriptions is just going to keep going up and to inscribe 10,000 profile pictures now I saw a stat and it was like it it would cost like upwards of like5 million to create a collection that big so there's like historical significance of being you know the first part of the 100 or the first 100K inscription back when it was affordable and like it's going to place a limit on you know is it worthwhile for me to try to launch an inscription collection yeah I think that that takeaway right there is super super bullish something that I actually mentioned that like a month ago or something when I was thinking they were talking about like ocean mining like I guess uh censoring out some ordinal

transactions and I was like well then I guess maybe it's bullish because you won't be able to inscribe anymore but this is like the same effect so I totally agree with you pibbles um and I think that's a maybe a reason why uh udy and a couple of the others who are behind tap r Wizards actually raised some money I think maybe they had to inscribe in a more high- fee environment than some of these earlier collections that Reserve their inscription spots before the craze actually hit so that's I think that's something we'll see more of like nft projects and communities raising to to launch project and inscribe on bitcoin two more bullish things while we're at it ETF is just net positive for all of Bitcoin as a whole and the happening is about in about 96 days I

mean it's really really hard not to be very excited about about this year as a whole um R I love the stats you brought there I was trying to share screen and walk the uh the viewers through uh but if you're listening to this podcast that was another another great way to kind of get that information it's really insane to see the the growth and uh what these transaction fees are actually doing to benefit uh the the miners and honestly the long-term sustainability of this chain I am really excited to see this new era spur further Innovation for Bitcoin I personally don't think that ordinals are the Beall end all but I think what it's the most exciting thing that it's doing uh is actually bringing the idea of innovation back to crypto

and I think you're going to see the the era of l2s kind of come back and I guess that kind of Segways pretty nicely Sam into your hot seat cool Throne yeah I'm still feeling a little bit of effort capitals uh Thunder here he tweeted the other day about Stacks but I've got STX in the cool Throne it's up 100% over the past 30 days I have been publicly skeptical of stacks at a technical level but ignoring all of that I think it's a very very good trade I mean L2 tokens on eth have done very very well and uh if you get that L2 narrative exposure plus the rise of ordinals and and BRC 20s and then you've got you know just Bitcoin and the ETF at at large as a huge narrative and then at the same time if it's like an altcoin

season I think STX kind of classifies as an ALT as well so I think you kind of get the best of both worlds there yeah and back to what I was saying about what effort pointed out on Twitter you've got three and a half billion fdv for uh STX versus 15 billion plus for for arban op so does seem like a little bit of a narrative violation in my opinion and if you download any ordinals wallet like you've got xers and leather which was formerly hero like a lot of them have native stack support for stdx stacking and you know certain daps within that ecosystem that you can access so I think that could be a Tailwind just if people download nal's wallet and are dabbling there and then cstx price going up and then they're like yeah maybe I'll throw 500 bucks here see how stacking works

and see that yield and then start using different apps I think that's pretty promising and then obviously we have the Nakamoto upgrade coming up which is going to introduce faster block times for stacks and hopefully less reorgs as well as an S Bitcoin derivative um I guess if I would say like another bold take for 2024 I think that Bitcoin related l2s will be the most value hacked in all of crypto to be honest like it's simply just not secure and there's inherent trust assumptions that comes along with it so definitely be careful with some of them but that's not to say there's not going to be a ton of money made on bitcoin l2s this cycle I'm very very sure about that uh but yeah I think sdx is really just the the only way to get Bitcoin L2 exposure if you

will so I think it's a solid trade I think it would feel terrible to like watch your your Bitcoin app get exploited on the Bitcoin block Explorer cuz you're sitting there watching like in this 20 minute eternity long transaction like damn all my money is disappearing in here there's nothing I can do to stop it Counterpoint as a developer you get you get 10 minute gaps to try to stop the next exploit so but then again I guess on like an L2 uh you could still get like rugged on something native to an L2 at a much quicker rate but it'll be interesting to see what comes with this because I'm a admittedly not as caught up as I'd like

to be on the Bitcoin L2 side of things um but it like my understanding is you can't really get the type uh you you need an OP code change to to really bring true l2s to bitcoin uh and the OG Maxis are are just going to stand in the way of that so I think we're probably going to get a a Block siiz Wars V2 based around like can we support l2s unless somebody comes in and figures out a new way of getting a real trustworthy L2 or trustless L2 um onto Bitcoin and that I don't know I need to get more cultured into the the Bitcoin L2 side of things I've personally wrote it off because I came to crypto because I

thought smart contracts were just super super interesting uh and like not having that functionality was what just made me spend attention otherwhere uh elsewhere but yeah I don't know it'll be interesting to see if this can turn from a narrative to reality I do think Bitcoin ux still has an insane amount of work to do I think that threat between udy and someone else like trying to pay his invoice was the funniest thing I've read in quite some time just like the amount of pain that he had to go through to get like one simple invoice uh paid but I do think it gets better over the go and like I don't think Bitcoin is going to have like a thriving like def

ecosystem in the long run and if anything you could say like how much of a pain Bitcoin is today if anything it could be like quite bullish especially for like nfts because it means like people are lazy it's hard to get um so yeah I agree with you ran that is lightning specific like that Eric wal thread that you're talking about so like I think he's like super bullish on the idea scaling Bitcoin like you know eventually and he's kind of behind the Tapo Wizards movement but I think he was just pointing out like yeah lightning is like simply a failed project like we need to stop spending development resources around Bitcoin on like supporting this movement because it simply doesn't work uh but I definitely

agree with you R and then I guess a Counterpoint to my hacks thesis would be I don't really know where you would go with just native Bitcoin had you hacked like a bridge to an L2 or something like that like there's like most of the time in ethereum you know you've got tornado cash or like some other app that like just a bunch of different idio like syncrasy and things you can do with it to make it harder to track like with Bitcoin you're literally just stuck in a utxo and like you're just yeah I don't know what you would do with that so maybe that's bullish uh dormant Bitcoin Supply well recent Trends would indicate that you'd take it through thorchain back to ethereum and then go do something with it but in that case we see the opposite where exploit on ethereum use Thor train to get to

bitcoin you can wash it through mixers and presumably you take those mixers onto the the now mixed Bitcoin into a sex uh and then either I don't I have no idea if we tend to see those outflows to go into like dollars or if once you're in a sex then you you know flip into bitco or like from Bitcoin back into eth and then you take your eth back on on chain I have no idea what that looks like um but unfortunately thorchain is has historically played a fairly key role in moving between those two ecosystems that makes sense actually I did not think about that I'd be surprised if like a Bitcoin mixer like specifically like a a peer-to-peer mixer

would be like able to handle the capacity of like a large hack but but yeah I mean Thor chain obviously has the liquidity and the volume to to support quite a bit so yeah I don't know about the the Bitcoin mixers I presume they're pretty good because for whatever reason we tend to see hacks move to bitcoin and through those mixers um I would assume that they're like a centralized uh entity that kind of plays that role so you're taking that risk if you're the exploiter but then again like you know if you lose half your stolen funds you still have half the stolen funds so I don't know I I don't know enough about security to make smart opinions here um so maybe that's a good

point to get off of this conversation and I'll jump to my hot seat cool Throne which I spent a lot of time in this sele Lea data over the past couple of weeks I built out a dashboard for blocks research users we go ahead and show it here I'll share screen and and add it to this uh stream for the viewers rather than the listeners but I'll of course talk through this as we go through it as well um I really don't know if it's a hot seat or cool Throne I'm still like out on it everything in my body wants it to be a cool throne but I'm struggling so I'll walk through it so Celestia is a purpose built blockchain specifically to be a data availability later or essentially to allow other chains to post their data

onto Celestia for very very cheap um so whereas ethereum is very expensive but the largest da layer Celestia is trying to like basically undercut the market and make a significantly cheaper place for rollups to uh post data to which ultimately allows them to scale so in the L2 or the rollup fee model the user pays the amount it cost to settle that tra transa or to post that transaction for da plus some additional like execution based fee and so the the cost it actually cost the the cost it it uh that comes back to the role to actually post that gets passed directly to the user so that really is like a variable cost uh and what ultimately increases the transaction fees to users the

execution side of things you can have you know a little more customization around um and there's different implementations you could use to get that lower so Celestia is really focused on cutting down the first half of that uh cost structure for users and Celestia is able to do this through what's called like data availability sampling I am not going to give an attempt to explain that in depth it's really honestly something that should be used for a whole podcast and we've actually had Nick white on our show before and he's done a phenomenal job explaining that Vision um and that's probably the two of the biggest PowerPoints for uh Celestia is the strength of the team and the pursuit of a single Vision you know they've really created the modular thesis as a whole and now that's all anybody will talk about so I really am excited about the

team and the direction that they're pushing uh so if we get into a little bit of the data ethereum sees about 700 megabytes of data get posted to it per day by somewhere between 15 or so rollups uh some of those are much larger than the other ones with the the most data Rich rollups being Linea surprisingly and ZK sync arbitrum and op mainnet in no particular order those are just I believe the top four um and so for context like a single rollup like arbitrum per se it posts about 120 megabytes of data per day and so right now on Celestia we're seeing three active name spaces which are effectively the location uh where you

would post your data so you get like your own dedicated namespace I could call my role posting to Daniel's namespace right or whatever I want and so you'll see the name spaces here you know some are just text encoded strings While others are plain text like asog is an in inscriptions protocol um asog actually for the longest time was the most posted to data in terms of megabytes and I'm just realizing that Manta Network in actual rup has now flipped that so that's kind of good to see and so we've only seen meaningful activity from about four r or four name spaces we don't know what this 2410 is or this 8088 z z um because they elected to not use a plain text name space so this is a lead to all developers to not

hate data and allow us to know what you're doing um you know I've I've confirmed this with the Mana team that this is indeed their namespace that's the only reason I know it's Manta um but you know Manta Network would have sufficed as a namespace I'm just saying um but nonetheless we've only really seen adoption from about four rollups or protocols in general and you'll notice that they've paid pretty varying fees so for 400 megabytes of data mantis paid 101 Tia whereas Astro posted not not much less at 340 megabytes but only six Tia which is a massive discrepancy um it turns out that because of Celestia's fee model it's a first price auction so think ethereum before EIP 1559 was

implemented and the base fee gave you this one number to pay to get in the block uh Tia is very much so you know you take every transaction in the M poool you rank sort them on fees and whoever fits in the block gets in the block um and so that what that does is it creates the inefficiency of for a bidding war if the block is to be full uh and even in the case of no bidding war you can overpay and that's like perfectly possible uh and Manta is unfortunately appears to be doing that they're paying about 12 11 or 12 times too high of a fee um and so I don't know if that kind of comes out in Caldera which is their the role as a service provider who they like kind of built through I don't know if it's a issue on

caldera's end I don't know if that's an issue on manta's end or somewhere in the in between but it is interesting to see how that's kind of played out and so right now we're seeing about 30 to 50 megabytes of data get posted per day and again for context ethereum is about 700 and it's kind of when EIP uh what is it 4844 which is like the Proto dang sharting uh EIP when that goes live ethereum will then support a Max of 5,400 5,400 megabytes per day and to compare that to celesia who's again kind of built around this idea of abundance rather than scarcity uh celesia offers today 46,000 80 megabytes per day so again

it's about even after EIP 4844 goes live uh celesio has about 10 times more available or has more data availability service or space or bandwidth uh than ethereum does so that ultimately allows Celestia to be Dirt Cheap even though Manta is paying like 10x 11x too much uh for their fees it is still insanely cheaper like I'm talking 99% cheaper to post to celesia than it is to post to ethereum mainnet today and so when EAP 4844 goes live you know there's going to be a meaningful transaction cost reduction but it is not 99% 99% gets you to a point where you can get subs Cent transactions for

rollups uh and that is ultimately going to be a massive driver for adoption uh when rups do come live you know this is where I kind of start to become skeptical of like how like how sustainable is this demand going to be because what selesia has absolutely nailed and just done so so right is integrate with rup as a service providers or places that you allow to like oneclick deploy a new chain so they're integrated with Astria Dimension conduit and Caldera that I can name off the top of my head uh they're also have the ability to you like if you launch through an arbitrum orbit train the op stack or a polygon SDK chain or sorry cdk chain you can launch on Celestia if

you want a sovereign rollup uh I think these are still pretty actively in development but roll kit and The Sovereign SDK can both be built using Celestia uh and then even more custom rups can still also build their own implementation for uh Celestia so something like Argus or Eclipse that is a lot of different ways to build something that ends up posting data onto Celestia and I've poked around with some of the rollups that these rollup as a service providers are enabling and I'm going to be completely honest they look like terrible there's like nothing net new it is just like building an app for the sake of building an app and now this time instead of it being a set of smart contracts it's a rollup because it's really easy to do and that's great but I don't necessarily consider that like

really really sustainable demand and Celestia needs a ton of demand so for them to max out their current uh bandwidth of about 46,000 megabytes per day you know they need about 65 times the amount of data getting posted to it than ethereum sees today and I'm not saying that's impossible but I am questioning like where that demand's going to come from you know is it high TPS general purpose chains is it like an army of app specific rollups that we're kind of seeing through these Ras providers you know does some of those actually get users in adoption and continued use you know is it going to be gaming Focus chains that's kind of where my head's at is it'll probably be the the combination of high throughput chains um that can just be the best rollups today and some of a lot of that

rollup activity shifts to the chains because it's cheaper and more things can be done there um and then gaming I think it makes a lot of sense because gaming seems to be a good fit for roll apps right like if I'm building a a decentralized exchange a roll app doesn't do me any good because I need to be where my liquidity is and that's not a problem you have with something like gaming where you know what I want my own environment I don't want the Noisy Neighbor problem and I don't need composability so gaming kind of seems like it's a potential fit here um but it is interesting to see so even if you play this out on a long enough time Horizon say that it does get that 65x ethereum's current data activity all right well now we're maxing out our current block size which can be

scaled but let's just take that out of the equation for now at 46,000 megabytes per day uh the fees are still quite small I would say you know they're around $5 million per day or annualized excuse me if you hit 46,000 megabytes per day the chain generates about five million in fees 5 million is just simply not enough to justify the current valuation of you know 13 14 15 billion uh so that's where you know you start to kind of struggle like okay that the fees kind of starts to break down over the long enough time Horizon but will there be external demand for this token they're really trying to push the idea of using Tia to bootstrap your rollups and getting this token into the ecosystem and into the hands of users

and like that is something that materially could uh play out and I wouldn't necessarily bet against uh that the idea of modular money I think is super valuable for the Cosmos ecosystem as a whole that's something they've been trying to do with adom hasn't really panned out so Tia is kind of like round two at that you know you're already seeing material demand for the token through this airdrop narrative that is playing out in real time as we mentioned at the beginning of this episode so I am definitely intrigued and excited about Celestia there's just nothing that I can point to right now that is like oh this will be the definitive source of demand for da going forward now that's not to say that like just because I can't point to it right now now I think it's a failed project or something crazy

like that like that is not what I'm saying at all um I'm just really I'm really glad that you know we have this dashboard available to watch the growth in real time and see what drives it because you know if we do see gaming coming in and just posting a ton of data like it might and then that' be great to to have that data point and then be like okay no gaming you know I I do believe in gaming as a whole long term and I do think it makes sense of bring some of that on chain so that would be like a very strong indicator to to me that this actually might work out so I know I've rambled a lot but I'm curious if you guys have any thoughts on celesio or its viability I think just a few random thoughts I've never really

thought about this question but like how much Economic Security does a data availability layer need I mean like it's hard to quantify uh I'm not sure if I have like any framework for it at all but say if you had to put a number to it it would be less than the of Economic Security that ethereum the base protocol has right and and you could make an argument for given amount of Economic Security that Celestia provides which of course is highly highly dependent on the price of Celestia then maybe celesa isn't charging enough for people to post their data to celesa even though they have

this like abundant amount of room for people to post data right but then on the other other hand you sort of like have this this like techno Optimist view right a future with technology should be a future with abundance everything should be abundant everything should be cheap humans shouldn't have to work because the cost of producing everything so cheap and we just get everything for free there's like infinite amount of energy from like 10 billion nuclear reactors out there and I think that's kind of like the other side of the argument that you're seeing right like da should be cheap because that and Ables like this Cambrian explosion of like Innovation and new use cases to be built on a blockchain and I do think

it's like fairly hard to balance those two right on one hand you do want a chain that's like generating profit because at some point like you're not gonna hold Tia unless you have a reason to and your reason to is probably because like Tia or celes as a chain is making money unless we just get air jobs for the next like 50 years which I don't think is happening and so trying to balance like the revenue generated by the network but also like sort of like the constraints that you would sort of like uh face as a developer building on salesia like I'm I'm not sure what the best answer is to

be honest you know like it's kind of a similar argument kind of kind of to like salana you know like salana generates like no Revenue today but then like if you like 10x or like 100x fees like there are certain like applications that just don't work on um salana like mostly on chain Central Dem order books so I don't know maybe there's a future where Celestia is able to sort of like price discriminate more between like people paying uh people posting data on a celesia I have no clue what that looks like but definitely like the valuation is hard to justify today even if you like do some

like hand wavy magic extrapolate some crazy growth rate it's still like pretty hard but I do have to agree with you then that I think like Celesta has nailed the narrative right like the whole like modular money thing and like some influences starting the whole like if s Tia like you're G to get like infinite amount of air drops over the next cyle they've nailed that whereas a lot of other sort of like infrastructure protocols they struggle with like people try to like standard technology and try to compare it to it and like they try to like dive deep into like certain like security or like architecture decisions where celesa like no one's thinking about like oh my God is like data availability sampling as good as like data availability scaling how good is

like 2D eraser coding and like the read Solomon algorithm they're just like yo I'm going to Long modular the money so I think they've know that part I very much agree with like the super strong brand Duren and like it just takes me back to 2020 I fumbled like a massive bag of salana and the only investment thesis I had I didn't know even 1% of what I knew today it was just I used the chain and it was good and I did the same thing with Argus I was like Wow and granted Dan you pointed out that's on test net but I'm really really excited to try one of these Celestia da based chains that is like actually on mainnet and feel like how smooth it actually is because at the end of the day I do think a lot of it comes down to just is this product good and I

think that Tia and celes are directly competing with ethereum they try and come off as like more ethereum aligned uh by you know integrating with like the op stack by having the option to plug that in and then you know having these nice diagrams that have ethereum in them all the time and like how ethereum still has a role in in the settlement part of things but I do think that you're basically buying a ethereum competitor at you know one 100th of the valuation of in terms of circulating market cap so throwing the air drops is candy on top and I really like the trade for this cycle I think it's going to perform extremely well I would just say that the biggest threat will probably be Igan da obviously whenever that's actually live um but I do think there's going to be a

fair amount of projects that don't necessarily want to be aligned with you know ethereum alignment like I think some people do want to be more aligned with just Celestia modularity and that brand as a whole so I think there's room for both for sure but it's going to be interesting to see play out no I have no opinion Dan on the longevity of the business model I think fundamentals in a bull market are kind of bearish because it ties price down to realizations yeah yeah and honestly to add one point to Ren salana comparison salana is iterating on their fee model right now and that will probably the result will probably be low fees are maintained but the mil the ability to

upcharge when necessary is is uh improved upon because right now that exists but it's a it's a little bit unreliable if you will uh and so because of that it's like okay yeah no like you know they've built they built a chain with low fees got a ton of users people are actually building useful things on there uh and now they're thinking about the the economics behind it not a bad way to do it and I don't think that's something Celestia can't do right everybody uses you for da figure out a new pricing model where you could maintain the fact that you know you pitched everybody on a low fee chain a DA service you still need to keep that but up charge when it's where possible and when possible um I don't I think Celestia can vertically integrate and do a couple more things I think that'd be

an improved offering and I think there's no harm in starting where they are today to get to that point um and I also think there's a huge conversation around to be had around the value of settlement and versus the value of Da and kind of where the value acru in general to these different chains but maybe I'll leave that as a teaser for next week's episode as as something we can we can jam on because I I do think we need probably a whole segment to talk about that so thank you guys for listening another banger episode appreciate you guys coming on uh and to the listeners we will be with you again next week hey everyone thanks for watching today's zero X research episode I wanted to take a second and remind you about an upcoming 2024 digital assets Summit in London this March seats are limited so

hit the link in the description and use the promo code 0x10 to save 10% on tickets see you in [Music] London