Kevin Wang: Nervos – Scaling Smart Contact Blockchains With Proof of Work and Generalized UTXO #326

Transcript

this is epicenter episode 326 with guests Kevin Wang today our guest is Kevin Wang and Kevin's the co-founder of the nervous network so nervous is a project that came out of China and 2018 and launched its main net a few months ago what's interesting about nervous is that it has such a unique architecture if you compare it to any other smart contract platform that is coming out today right so whether it's polka dot or cosmos or e

2.0 all these platforms they implement at least one of two things some form of proof of stake and some form of charting to achieve scalability now nervous has a very different approach when you first look at it you notice that it has a two layered architecture there's a base layer for transactions and computations happen on a layer two off chain so let's focus on the base layer for a moment because this is where things are really interesting the space layer is called the common knowledge base or ckb and it acts like a generalized verification network so let's take a Bitcoin transaction for a second when you create

a Bitcoin transaction your client verifies that the inputs correspond to unspent outputs in the UT Exocet before broadcasting it to the network so your client does computations locally and then those computations are verified by the network and added to blocks well nervous have a similar approach but they've generalized utx so in a way that it can also hold smart contract state so actual computations are done off chain on a layer 2 and the ckb does the verification so this is in stark contracts to aetherium where computations are done on chain and users only have the assurance that computations are verified once they've received the valid block so another

similarity the Bitcoin is that nervous leverages proof of work so their team stands firmly behind Nakamoto consensus and they've created an optimized version of proof of work called NC max that greatly improves throughput and Kevin describes these improvements during the interview so according to Kevin one of the advantages to the CKB approach is that apps retain their composability so I think that there's still quite a few unanswered questions about East 2.0 and how apps living on different shards will maintain composability and so the issue here is that perhaps the depend on each other might end up living on the same charge which kind of defeats the purpose of starting in the first place well a nervous there's no sharding there's just

a global unified state and preservation of all assets on the ckb layer I should point out that the nerveless Grants Program is a sponsor of epicenter but not of this particular episode Sonny and I had been planning to do an interview with nerve O's after they launched and it just happens to coincide with the grants program sponsorship of the podcast which began last week a bit of housekeeping France blockchain week is happening here in Paris on my home base on the week of March 2nd this will be the third year of ECC it is on March 3rd 4th and 5th and over the weekend we've got the eath Paris hackathon on the 6th 7th and 8th so ECC is taking entirely

new dimensions this year they have a new event venue which is much bigger and much nicer than the previous year's I don't even know how many speakers there are there are just so many there's several speaker tracks but go to ECC i/o to get all the details ECC is organized by theorem France they're a nonprofit organization so the tickets are actually quite affordable so it's a great opportunity to come to a great conference in a great city and not spend a whole lot of money especially if you're in Europe I mean it's just you know a skip and a hop from just about any European town so you should

definitely come and if you're gonna be here on Wednesday the 4th we're gonna have an epicenter drinks Meetup so you know if you're coming to Paris I'm gonna buy you a drink that's just how it's gonna be so fellas Sonny and I will be having the streets meet up on the 4th and it will be our absolute pleasure to hang out with you so do register at epicenter rocks slash the Harris meetup before we go to the interview I'd like to tell you about our sponsor for today's episode Peppo where the Krypto community comes together with short video updates and tokens of appreciation so whether you're Krypto developer a podcaster and analyst a blogger or just an enthusiast there's never been an easier way to showcase

your work earn appreciation and connect with the community so eath denver's starts in a couple of days and Peppo is going to be there in fact they are the official social app of East Denver so you should download Peppo to follow all the east denver action and if you're going to East Denver you can use Peppo to complete little missions they're gonna be putting up little challenges on Peppo and you can win pebble coins if you complete these missions and what's great about pepper coins is you can use them to share your appreciation for for others but you can also use them to buy actual things you can use them in the Peppo store to buy gift cards for Starbucks Amazon uber Airbnb and many other merchants and if you can't be

there in person like me if you're stuck on the other side of the ocean or something well you can use Peppo to watch updates from your favorite projects you can ask questions and you can share your thoughts so to download Pepa go to pepper calm epicenter that lets them know that we sent you and you can follow me there I'm at sub 2.0 that's SCB to Pio and T zero we'd like to thank Peppo for their support of the podcast and with that here's our conversation with Kevin wing we're here with Kevin Wang Kevin is the co-founder of nervosa nervosa is a multi asset store value blockchain which comes out of China and Kevin is going to walk us

through how nervous works and specifically one of the things that's kind of interesting about nervous is that unlike many of the other block chains that are now coming into the ecosystem nervous use this proof of work which will I'm sure ruffle the feathers of many of our listeners but nonetheless it's a really interesting model thanks for joining us today Kevin good to be here Thank You Sebastian and sang for inviting me so let's start with a bit of your background which is far removed from what you're doing now previously you you were consultant you work for IBM and and then you started one of the biggest tech podcasts in China what is it like running a podcast in China have I heard a lot of things I've heard that running a podcast in China is very different from running a podcast here

one of the reasons why because people in China that run podcasts actually make money but yeah tell us a bit about your background so we didn't really run the full proper one but so specifically the podcast so II was a technology focused one called tea hour and actually this is how I met some of the cofounders of the of nervosa so it was quite interesting it was at a time the largest okay maybe we shouldn't collect artists but the wall of the large is definitely technology podcast sort of focus on programmers and sort of hackers entrepreneurs that talked about Ian's and then it was quite fun we ran some tomorr like over a hundred episodes I'd

be ugly and even got a lot of folks but yeah so for me myself specifically I was a trained as a software engineer and like you said I work for IBM started my career there Silicon Valley lab and did some big data engineering solutions before they were called big data anyway so and then I started talking to the startup world and you know come to open stores and you know the web but this is like between 200 2000 and 2010 where you know you see a lot of you know social apps and one entrepreneur is moving to in that space so I caught you know part of that wave and I work with a good

friend of mine and we started a developer education business or startup I would focus on training people to become self engineer its professional software dinners then you know through the journey you know I discovered Bitcoin like many other folks and they had you know reading the Bitcoin what paper had a really profound was really profound experience for me and so I knew that I always wanted to do something in the space and started nervous with some the other co-founders back in the beginning of 2018 and then that's been working on these things so when I came in a you

know visit you guys actually in your office last year and I came to visit you guys in Hangzhou which it and you know there's really cool experiences just sort of like the startup capital of China so who knows a little bit about what like the scene is like in Hangzhou and you know what kind of other startups are there are there other a lot of other blockchain companies based out of there so Hangzhou is known at the FinTech center of China and you know the the biggest player obviously is Ali pay which is part of the Alibaba Group and and they have also many many products they have run a huge operation there and then you have sort of more traditional FinTech companies you have like that

it's p2p FinTech companies and in the blockchain space there are also many companies and so Teuton university is there which is one of the largest engineering focus universities in China and so a lot of good engineers come out of university and then there is you know we are there and I will say our engineers are mostly in Hangzhou and you also have I'm token which is wallet company and you have spark pool which is a larger see here in mining pool there and then you also have some permission blockchain companies there as well and also a lot of researchers a lot of

researchers and blockchain engineers because we we have events regularly in Hangzhou and then so we kind of we kind of know that crap pretty well it's also very entrepreneurial City so what would you say is the level of interaction between the FinTech community there and i guess more specifically the blockchain community and with so the west and Europe and the US like are you seeing a lot of interaction or is it mostly just sort of encapsulate there yeah it's interesting because it's very sort of the wind shifts a lot right and it's very much regulation driven and in the early days when there wasn't clear regulation or like where the line will

be drawn then there is a lot of people try to you know sort of cross the boundary and do a little bit blockchain but also like traditional fin tag or or fin tech company looking to blockchain and things like that but so the regulators in China I mean that in the self its prolific topic so now I think it's more you know clear where the boundary is so the traditional companies tend to be more you know permission the blockchain you can plug permission the blockchain space and you know the public blockchain which is you know crypto assets and some are contract platforms tend to more like you know grassroots and then we see some you know trend it's only since last year president xi

jinping sort of had this top-down mandates you know for the country to develop blocking technology so there is some trend coming along that this can converge but then that process I think it's starting but you know we're not really there yet okay interesting I think it would be really helpful for us at some point to do a whole episode on the Chinese ecosystem and all of the you know the regulation but also all the initiatives are there coming out of there from this front side of the world it's often hard to dissect yeah it's very different I've been actually following a lot of jams work for your other co-founder for a while

because his company crypt aid they were actually actually built one of the first alternative implementations of tender mint and so they had a version of Penn in rust about like two years ago so I've been following them since then so what's the relationship between the Crypt tape company and nervosa is it sort of like one of the main development companies or is it crypt dangers is sort of turned fully into nervous at this point a good question and it's the first first one that you mentioned is crypt tape is the main developing companies for nervous and so in a way it's very similar to tournament and cosmos right so the nervous is a public plot chain project governed by its own foundation and

tape is tasked with engineering tasks and implementing the protocol and you know develop the ecosystem to chain products and things like that and so cryptic you know originally started off with doing some more private blockchain development and then what drove the vision to decide you know what we're gonna instead start focusing on building a public blockchain so what was that vision there for nervous yeah so really from like you mentioned Jen's yeah right so he was a core Ethier in researcher core developer that he used to work with Vitalik pretty closely in the early days I think 2016 around 2016 and at the time like you said cryptid build a permission

in the blockchain casita so it's a variation of like you said BFT sentiment but you know he was at the time he was still working with a theorem team pretty closely and you know through the almost two years he worked there he really got a front-row view of you know Hoggy theorem has grown and also how he theorem has many of the you know growing pains right and this is I think that experience informed him of a vision that you know maybe we could do a different direction if we start with Bitcoin right and then you get to e theorem which has more kinetic abilities and you know general computation capabilities and

then it nervous ck be your calm knowledgebase the later one blockchain is almost sort of if we go from Bitcoin to get to a that you know turn complete smart country platform you either go to the direction of if you're in or you go to the direction of CKB right select turning left you go to ckp turning right you could eat Syrian I think both ways are valuable but you know he he felt there's the bandages to that going the technical architecture that we chose but obviously we can get into more of that in this podcast I mean can I translate you guys came from you know heavily from the Durham community well you know just by looking at some of the architectural

decisions if I had to guess and I didn't know I would have thought you guys were like bitcoiners like starting to build smart contracting platform with like proof of work and UT exo's and you're right it's very interesting design paradigm that's pretty different than a theory oh man what a lot of the existing smart contracting systems are moving towards yeah just about anybody else so let's talk about the nervous vision then can you describe at a high level what you're trying to build here and why you're building it this way so nerve also network is it's a layered architecture so in the early days we specifically chose the direction of sort of scaling through layer two right so in

other words we keep layer one that's simple and to play a limited role in the whole ecosystem it's possible and then use layer two at the scaling layer so that decision informs a lot of the actual technical trade-offs that we made including you know things like what Sonny mentioned that we use people W and so the rationale here is sorry if we if were to choose you know POS and some novel consensus algorithms we use Nakamoto consensus and c-max a variation of Nakamoto consensus and we could potentially achieve higher scalability but on the other hand if you have chosen to scale with the layer two then you

don't necessarily have to do that right we sort of maximize take a no compromise approach this notarization and you know protecting the phone note the running the the cars running phone note and you know just like a Bitcoin BTC and we don't do sharding and want to make sure to keep all the global stay in one piece obviously turing-complete to support layer two so all this come together right is the devil's Network and also you know I know we'll get into this a little bit earlier too and also on the crypto economic side we feel like we fixed some of the issues that Bitcoin faces and then also have a crippled economic model that specific designed to

be the layer one for layer two as well so both I would say architectural II as well as crypt economically neural networks layer one is designed for layer two so these technologies and together that's in the most network you said that you don't do sharding so basically the the layer one conserves all the different states of the history of the nervous network so explain then why is nervous better 4l4 l2 then any other other scaling approaches that we see currently in the ecosystem you know it's a pretty big topic so I I'll just kind of spread a little bit and not to get into depth of each one and I think first

you have to look at what layer two is best for right so layer two technologies are best - for scaling and you have really cheap potentially really fast finality and really fast confirmation and anchor scale really well so when you're designing a layer one for that purpose to complement later - you want to get things that layer to need and there - there are two solutions don't have which is you want to have some sort of global settlement layer right that is objective and which kind of points to people W you want to have a layer one system that's secure and we can talk about the creep and economic model of nervous layer one

a little bit you want to pick one that doesn't have sharding so that you have global state together so you don't have to get into the sort of synchronization of different state and other issues you want to pick a layer one system that's decentralized right maximum but decentralized again it's difficult to push for that if you want scaling on everyone as well right but if you don't need to scale earlier one we want to push the other direction we want to be no compromise decentralization right which means you gotta be able to protect so like a BTC right you want to protect their cause of running full notes as much as possible and also you know complete touring suitability like a Bitcoin cannot be that layer because the lack of of codes

or turing-complete so one of the main benefits you know as opposed to etherium then here would be the lack of sharding why is that that important for l2 like you know let's say you know as long as all the participants of a particular l2 system are on it single shard then it should be fine right like as long as all the players in this plasma game all are on have an account on that shard why does it affect the fact that there are other insurance in the etherium world that's true and we have seen for example in the in the defy space specific use case right and you have a lot of

applications that kind of depend on each other and then or we talk we call this composite computability when you have applications depend on each other you want to make sure that they can synchronize state very easily right what you will see probably in the Charlotte blockchain you see that interdependent applications tend to then reside on the same chart because that would make the most sense however this kind of defeats the purpose of starting if let's say you know D Phi or some other killer application would evolve and then you have to put all of them the same shard then you go back to the issue of scalability cos how do you scale this chart so you know what we see is you know first of all layer 1 we want to

have a global and unified global state and there's a lot of value from that and like I said right so you can compose there easily you know the way we think about this is layer one is for preservation of assets so that's the most valuable like movie table blockchains the value of public blockchains derives not from the fact that they can do computations or they can do pass messages around right but they can support applications focus on value or assets or finance right then whenever you have assets then sort of defy applications and tend to cope with the assets so you will see that you know defy very naturally would prefer a

blockchain that has this unified global state then all the computability can happen and it is much easier for that purposes so you mean there will need to develop an ecosystem of composability even for l2 so let's say I need to be able to close my payment channel that triggers some event happening on a plasma chain it's good to have those on on shared state so that way they can kind of affect each other easily yeah you could but again that's not the advantage of layer two right so unless your layer one that's absolutely crowded and then you just it's too expensive perform this at you know transactions sure you know I'm not saying they cannot

be perform away or two but these type applications I call you know settlement operations actions these are high-value transactions and then these typically need global consensus so I mean the best place to perform them is on layer one and you have you know a mechanism that's clearly that can you know reach global consensus because that's the most valuable those are the most valuable transactions in a way so let's talk about the consensus mechanism so I mentioned at the beginning of the show that nervosa uses proof of work and it has a variance of Nakamoto consensus which is called NC max or Nakamoto consensus max can you

explain what is NC max and how does it improve on the Bitcoin proof of work that were used to yeah so NEC here stands for Nakamoto consensus which really is bitcoins consensus a mechanism right that's chain based in census mechanism you know prefer to availability and this is again the another sort of layer one what we believe it's properly the layer one should should have so anything max improves on Nakamoto Kansas is in in several ways right so first we believe that bitcoins ten minute per block underutilize bandwidth and in fact it's very wasteful so we want to have a

mechanism that can dynamically adjust difficulty so that instead of you know to keep like ten minutes per block we want to target a specific unco rate let's say I think currently it's targeting up between three to five percent so this way you know within that range of Anchorage we can keep the block time as fast as possible so right now I think our block time is somewhere sub ten seconds I think seven eight seconds per block and still have very reasonable encore age to achieve consensus so I think that's one the other property that you see max prioritize for is to maximize the the bandwidth so Nakamoto consensus has this for every transaction

they will be propagated twice through the network and then for NC max we want to make sure that we only propagate those ones so that again to to best conserve bandwidth so ultimately the goal the design the Vincey max is this right so what we believe again we want to maximize for this validation and and you know preserve the cost running phonos and then you know for any given let's say three you know somewhere like a three to a thousand photos and you know around that range then it really becomes a function for any sort of consensus outwards and really becomes a function of how you can best utilize back with that's what NC max designed for to pass you twice spent with so in

Bitcoin we have a ten-minute block time and the idea here is it within 10 minutes we'll have near-perfect propagation of 1 megabyte size blocks but you know given the evolution of sort of bandwidth globally and how that's improving you know we can probably assume that that's a very high margin of security and so rather than taking this approach nervous is taking the approach where instead of trying to limit the uncle rate by having this very very long block time you're going to optimize for the uncle rate by analyzing it and in real-time and

adjusting the difficulty based on the actual conditions in the network is that a fair yeah exactly yeah you got it so if technology improves and then you know in the future network bandwidth let's say go 10x and it's possible that's been going up since the last you know several decades and with the 5g coming out but there's even more room to improve yeah so again the the transaction per second for our layer 1 protocol in C max will increase automatically and another thing that I forgot to mention like the third property of the improvement is that we for a Bitcoin protocol the reasons of my selfish mining is its profitable it's because they don't count the uncles the

uncle blogs into consideration of the difficulty adjustments and therefore attackers can sort of increase the uncle rate and then have decreased you know difficulty for the next epoch and there or you know difficulty adjustment and then become profitable right so self Manning can be profitable and for us we count the uncles also within consideration of difficulty adjustment and therefore self mining is not profitable on nevelocity ok so here you eliminate selfish mining by adjusting that difficulty rate on you know at on the fly sort of thing and then and then that makes selfish mining unprofitable for anyone who's trying to attempt that

how does the network know what the uncle rate is how does that get incorporated into say a block or you know how does that information get captured and transmitted across to network for that difficulty rate to be adjusted okay I this is where I'm a little bit automatic the t's here because I'm not developer that actually wrote the code the implement V because this is algorithm you know I'll kind of go on the limb and say it's probably a property on the block headers but again for folks I really wanted I think it is I think what from what I read it's a property on the block cutters but I guess what what what I'm asking here and you know it's fine

if you don't know this was like how does the network sort of come to consensus on what orphan blocks are I don't know if you can shed some light on this sunny I mean it'll be like similar to how aetherium already does it dried wherein etherium the minor will include any uncle block up to a depth of seven in the header and they're incentivized to include them because they also get a reward for including more uncle blocks and so I imagine it's probably something very similar and I remember looking through some of the documentation for nerve rose and it's not in the header but it's in another spot in the block and it doesn't count towards the blocks size limit

so that way I has to avoid disincentivizing the inclusion of them so yeah that's kind of how it's very similar to an aetherium in that way what I found really interesting in was in the you know reading through that economic model of the it was very interesting to see that I've never actually seen it presented in such a way that selfish mining is actually an attack on difficulty of readjustment because I don't know I feel like what I learned about selfish mining that that wasn't how it was presented but then I read one of the papers I was actually linked in to in your documentation and that was actually very interesting to see that like you know if you actually solve the selfish how difficulty readjustment

works and make it take into account the orphan blocks and yeah yeah it actually selfish mining becomes much less of a concern that's not really much pack that you can do there yeah it's very interesting because we actually solve this you know first hand experience during our test net so we have something called mining competition basically we encourage people to to mine the test net and they can get some you know test that tokens that can be converted to me net tokens later and then we actually saw somebody launch a selfish mining like this huge we organized a reward right and but that we saw that going on for some time and then just stopped so our hypothesis

is obviously that you know the person who was doing the attack it was test that so that's why they could realize it's not profitable right so the compare the income of just being mining honestly versus doing selfish mine so I was really interesting for us to see yeah so just kind of an end of the story to do what you said so maybe they can step back actually what made you guys decide to use proof of work in the first place because it seems nowadays like you know today all these all the new networks that are launching are all using proof of State in this month alone I mean I run a validator and I've been I think I started I'm just like you know there's four new proof of state test that's that we're launching in January what made you

guys to launch guys decided to launch a proof-of-work network in 2020 or 2019 yeah so we're like you said we're just about the only blogging tour launched amongst the you know other blog change that kind of started them around the same time you know again I think it had a lot to do with the overall vision of Novus Network which is you know we don't try to delay will we believe the later web protocol needs to be rock-solid and then some more conservative in a way not to try to do too many things and not to try to you know do both unity standardization and scaling and then you know rely on novel cryptography and that

you know what we wanted to have under layer one is like I said very rock-solid decentralized and battle battle-proven and then something that has been studied in research for a very long time and then this is you know at a time we look at all the readers it's done with a big coin of consensus algorithms it's just about the only one that fits this only Canada fits this requirement you know ever since we started to look into you sort of more properly to perform and then you know we feel that we were made a good choice because whether you think about you know having this you know global sellable layer and then the the security property you want for that

whether you want to have a sustainable blockchain and then you know what you need for that and then whether it's about this analyzation you know even people talk about you know sure proof of work there's mining polls and then they may not be you know it entirely centralized but it's the same for proof estate as well yeah staking pools or sticking out to service programs even more so like a recent like a finance and some exchanges got into the staking business and then charged zero fees so you start to see this we can say you know the sticking server is becoming very much decentralized force and then it tends to sort of focus on the ecosystem service provider that already have all the power

like again while it exchanges the reason is because they have they have coins they have tokens so it's very easy to see that that these players will consolidate power over a long time and for proof of stake it's very difficult to break out of that monopoly if you will because you know for as long as you know large stickers continue to because this is like the bridge got richer sort of theory right so if they continue to stay they will retain their monopoly in the ecosystem sort of like you know we have seen again for delegate prefer steak like eos and how some of the

issues purchased there I think for regular profits take it's it's not at immediate concern but you know things could move towards similar direction with the sticking providers and certain community we'll proof work the difference is for these monopolies like mining pools to retain their power it has a huge operating cost so they have to invest real resources and then keep innovating and then to stay on the edge of technology to keep their monopoly and you know with technology you know the paradigm technologies shifts every decades or so then it's a lot more difficult for them to retain that monopoly power forever so I'm not saying

for work right there is no like mining pool sanitation issues but it's a lot easier in our opinion so that can change over time this includes the you know the mining machine producers and you know mining pools and even like where the lowest lectricity cost is because again that can change with technical innovation over over an alter what made you decide to use like NC max which is you know very similar to the Bitcoin esque proof of work or Nakamoto consensus as opposed to some of the more you know maybe more newer approaches to

talk about improvement to knock about senses such as Bitcoin ng or more dad-like protocols I feel like a dad like system would actually be really you know one of the cons of dad system is you do need a you TXO system often to make it very efficient which happens to be what you have yeah I mean so whether we use Nakamoto consensus or some variation of it that's half the question right so that for that I think you'll be probably good to have our consensus researcher again to be here and because that's exactly what he focuses on for he's like the entire research and you know he PT program and you know that and so he is actually know that's the person

that broke Bitcoin unlimited so he he will give a very good answer to the question so yeah so he basically you know studied all the variations and then look at the chain quality and look at you know other properties and he said nakamoto consensus actually you know the best of the of all the alternatives so just to give a little bit background so this NC max algorithm was developed well he was he worked for block stream and under the mentorship of Greg and Peter some of the prominent Bitcoin researchers and then so there was definitely a lot of sort of Bitcoin influence into this and it's you know a

lot of thoughts on how to maximize the sort of the protocol efficiency of the bitcoins goodness algorithm and so that would be a great question for him but I know that's what he says right so I know that's his research area there's a really great talk that he gave at this scaling Bitcoin meetup in San Francisco last year about a year ago which was was incredible for my research for the Center for this interview so I'll link to that in the show notes I would recommend anyone who's interested in learning more about that check out that talk was also a series of blog posts on your website which kind of summarizes the contents of that talk that will link

to as well in the show notes yeah I think that would be the best I wanted to ask you about mining so you have your own hashing algorithm so I presume that Bitcoin Asics won't work on nervous can you talk about sort of like what the mining ecosystem looks like yeah so we have our own hash function and then and you know we we thought this you know for for quite a bit and you really reusing any existing hash function put the project at at risk especially what you start because there is this inventory of existing machines that can always point

to your blockchain and then you know double spend or attack the blockchain basically so this is the reason that we develop our own hash function called eco song so in terms of evolution of the my lingo system of nervous CK be it will be very similar to how big you know you started with the CPU in fact I talked about the mining competition that we did the first to face a money competition like everybody to CPU mind some coins and then it will you know shift to GPU miners and then from GPU to FPGAs so right now I think as we speak we have both GPU miners and FPGA miners on the most and then

eventually we'll move to a more ASIC based mining ecosystem so we are supported pretty much just by all the major mining pools you know we're pretty happy with you know the hatchery distribution and also the enthusiasm from the mining community yeah I'm actually in the process of setting up mining rig myself for their verse so I have my grin miner and I'm kind of that often it's just trying to install the neuro software right now unfortunately I didn't have a chance to get it to finish it in time for the episode but so yeah let's move on to the vm 50 KB VM because that's actually one of the most

interesting pieces I really like because you know this is the VM I've always dreamed up you know I wanted to always build I always wanted at some point you could get around to designing a smart contracting system that uses you TX OS and then I found that oh wow this is you know this is what you guys ended up creating so can you tell me a little bit about the cell model and what exactly is it what does it mean to be like separating state generation and state verification why is this the design you've decided to go with yeah so happy to that's the core of the you know the ledger structure and so cell model is a UTI so like in a ledger structure or

data structure if you will so if you start with the pic want you to echoes and be caught you tag so can only express one piece of information which is balanced or amounts right I'm gonna bitcoins and so you generalize that and then you are able to support you know for example any type of information you can you know two talking balances for example and then you add the capability of sort of smart contract or full a turing-complete script ability now execute the virtual machine and that becomes the cell model so a cell it's basically a generalized two piece of each excel and when you just like a Bitcoin when you create a transaction

you have inputs and outputs so in normal ckb when you when I say ckb by the way they I realize I didn't explain it reduce the acronym it constant for common knowledge base which is layer 1 blockchain for neural network ok so just just a little cat as a side note so this the CKB yeah that's an important point so C GB is what you call this common knowledge base which is in fact the layer one that supports everything else yeah so ckb it's just one layer one blockchain and then fully or two you can have many blockchain stand or other like channels and all that so when you create a transaction the year normal ckb you also create inputs and outputs just like

just like we create Bitcoin transactions and then the inputs are basically cells instead of you check cells right so you have multiple cells that can be part of the inputs and then the outputs are getting the that's the results only you create a transaction when it's when it's verified that executed accepted the inputs then will be spent right so these cells go to what we call dead cells or expire cells and then the outputs are the new cells right so the entire of on its own for Bitcoin it's the set of unspent transaction outputs that's the current global state right for nerville's it's the ants because it's unspent cell outputs right so that would be the global state for further moves so smart contracts can be you know the code

can be also part of the cell right so this is where we have two type of scripts right so what we call like for Bitcoin you have this lock script and then for levels there are two types of scripts one is log script just like a Bitcoin so you can still say you know I have my private key I'm gonna unlock this for bikal I'm gonna log these gems so to be able to spend it for four nervous you'll be able to unlock the cell to put in to to make the cell part of the inputs of a transaction right so that's what lakhs rupees he allows you to include a cell as one of the inputs of the transaction and then you have the second type of script we call type script for a cell so every cell has two scripts right so lock and

type so the type script not to confuse it with a programming language but type script is it allows you to put the cells as the outputs of the transaction in other words you can you know the type scripts verifies that a state transition from input to output actually is valid according to a pre specified rules again that's base we're talking about smart contracts right that's how I would say you know the cell model is a journal IET actual model so it takes basically input output style and transaction structure and then but just add this type script to make sure that you can run the

verification rules in a virtual machine effective smart contract - you know impose rules on state transitions would it be fair to kind of classify this is thinking almost a bit of a more like functional programming side roads you got it right where like instead of this data that has these function like TV or smart contracts or calling functions that are mutating the state of this contract instead what I'm doing is sort of defining contracts as these like pure functions which are these lock scripts and pipe scripts and I'm basically burning the old state of a contract and by passing it through this function and

it outputs a new state of contract which is this new cell yeah exactly it's exactly it's a very you know predicate base right so the verification engine or the virtual missed execution the result it's just a bullet it's true or false right so it is a valid or invalid transaction if it's valid then it's accepted by the blockchain if it's invalid you'll be rejected like you said right so it's you actually spend or burn the old states and then you have this new state coming out of thousands and are there rules of what kind of outputs have to be generated from the burning of this input how would I string a series of functions lock

scripts together in order to make one larger you know workflow at that like a user would want to do yeah you got it right so that's what you describe being its equivalent of smart in eutherian smart conscious calling the other smart contract and then what you're describing it's the equivalent paradigm in there also it's a very you know instead of object composability right so you know uh or comma Lori theorem it's kind of it's like oh all programming paradigm where you have you know accounts the happy internal state and then when you're interacting with them you mutate the state and then objects themselves can pass messages and they can you know use

that to to mutate other objects and then in every ckb that's what you just said is the same how you can post transactions together or in accordance more conscious together is that you pass them through a series of transactions so that how outputs can be needed to inputs and so on so forth you construction session the series transaction that way and all the computation for this is done off chain correct so the the blockchain only stores the state but the computation is done on I guess individual nodes the verification happens on the blockchain again let's think about Bitcoin I think

it easier to to use Bitcoin to explain some of the concepts again we're very similar to the you textile model so with the Bitcoin do you construct the transactions you know the code that's to construct the transaction happens off chain so this is in your wallet you search for utx oh right okay I've got this menu tech so to which I'm going to include you know it's part of the transaction so that's not Bitcoin core code right that's just the wallet will search through the transaction search you actually searching but verification which means things like your input enough ah perhaps you balanced that happens on chain so verification always happen on chain for us it's the same so constructing of transactions is off chain and then but

the verification you know whether you can you know verify signatures and whether the type script you know running the virtual machine can return true boolean true value that happens on our chain so you make sure that the these rules are are verified so if I understand that correctly so you know maybe another way to think of it as well is not just as a function of the system but it's also a declarative smart contracting system and so maybe to give an example of like this idea of why state verification Asit should be done on tape but generation could be done off chain is imagine you had a smart contract and the point of this was to

sort a list of numbers right from smallest to biggest the sorting algorithm would take n log n time but the verification that a list is sorted actually only takes linear time and so you could basically require that whoever is generating the smart contract they do the sorting on their wallet but when they put it on the chain everyone is just verifying that the list is sorted not actually doing the sorting algorithm themselves and that actually allows you to basically make you know the work that everyone else has to do what's smaller yeah so yeah I think you got exactly right right so you specify specifically what you care about

to verify you know not this procedure you know the steps to get there and then everybody just by taking the same stacks and cor we arriving at the same state right but you study say I'm just gonna this is what I care about and in the end it has to verify to this right and then yeah like you said write the computation and verification can have a symmetry in terms of complexity and this actually you know the sorting algorithm you mentioned it's very sort of reminiscent to you the zero knowledge proof stuff that we see today right so how do you to reduce generalize computation or special computation into some sort of you know set circuit and a rule that can be more easily verified at least you know reduce

complexity to to perform sir right I just sort of mentioned this this seems like so like you know is you can't roll up in a way as well where it's like you know the computation of the generation of the proof is all done client side but the verification which is simple is the actual lock algorithm and so I guess so is this kind of what you guys are implying whether you're saying that it's well-designed for l2 systems in the way that it kind of can make it easy to do these roll-up silo processes I think it is I mean back then when we first you know started with this direction zero knowledge like roll up roll up with not even the term a so there was definitely early layer to solution that was built but you know when we look at it it's

really it kind of points to that direction is you know I don't care all the every single state transitions that happen on layer 2 or either off chain as long as we can come to a agreement on layer 1 and you know either crypto economically or by some other means that we can say okay this is what we all agree and then that's really it and want to verify that's the final state wanna verify and then so this is sort of part I match Maps very well to that to the way of thinking so what happens now when you actually want to create a smart contract or where you want multiple people to be able to interact with it in the course of a single block right so

let's say you have an IC o---- or something that's happening and you know there's no reason that multiple people can't participate in the IC o---- in a single block but the problem is there's only one cell and whoever hits it first end up killing that cell and the second transaction that tries to buy from that IC o---- that cell is no longer there so how do you construct paradigms like that in this you key EXO cell model yeah so it's a look I think what you're pointing to it's kind of like a parallel processing right that could be allowed by a beauty taxol model and in herbals where construction sections you actually specify the dependencies of the transactions and it's explicitly right so the then the runtime can sort of do this dependency

mapping and see okay B's transaction can actually be executed in a parallel fashion or verified in a parallel way so that it they could as well so they're not conflicting with each other they don't grab the same selves and you know things like that then they can be processed in parallel but what if they are trying to hit the same cells so imagine this cell was a right counter on a tweet right so I tweeted something on this Twitter thing both on c kb and this cell is how many likes it has let's say two people trying to like it and and the current value is five right and the pure the smart contract the lock function is that it will increment by one right so two people both try to send a like and

they send the declarative value of six the first person will increase the wrap the light counter from five to six the second persons like will fail because it'll say oh it's already at six how would I have it so both peoples of likes can no happen in the same block I don't want it so that every time you do it like it's like oh you're like upset in the same block of someone else you have to go redo the like again you know for for those instances you may have to what one of them would be accepted so whichever comes first and then will you know that transaction would be probably the fastest and you don't have global sentences and again it's came based consistence outward from like a and C

max so it's possible you know strictly speaking these two votes will be in different blocks on different chains temporarily but eventually the network get to consensus and if we're talking about like transactions you know in the same block and yes so one of them will be rejected you know the previous one what's included in there then the next won't be rejected isn't this pretty bad you accident this is again you you could I mean this is where you could we have a term actually internally called layer 1.5 right so this is where you can have an aggregator is sort of a greed ADEs all the transactions and then to you know propagates and produce logs and then you know that's kind of similar to

the issues you talked about but so I think when we talk about here there is we do have a concept again this is different from a hearing account model and smart contracts world you have effectively everybody's balance within one single account and then they really try to kind of mutate the same object if you will with the nervous it's different in that oh let's see you can say I see else right so all the ico participants actually operating on their own cell right so if I have a balance of a token let's say 100 tokens it's actually contained in my own cell right and then you token balance you also own the cell that contain your balance so I can

unlock my cell and then you know spend my token and maybe Center Sebastian and you can do the same as well and this is important again this is just like a be computer so let's think about it right so everybody's own asset is we call this a bearable asset right so everybody's like truly owns the assets that you eat that you that you have so this way when I try to mutate my cell let's say I sense a fashion you know a few tokens then that seem to be independent of you trying to mutate you maybe want to send somebody awesome tokens we don't have to like lock the contract to the icon update and then you update for example in ervil's it's called first class asset just means you know the ownership of

asset or tokens are segregated by users if you will so taking a step back and looking at this and comparing it to Bitcoin just so that we get an idea of where it's it's sort of next to Bitcoin in it and how it compares to it the only things that separate different Bitcoin are the cell model which is a generalized version of you TXO or we also have state in addition to public key balances the other thing is this consensus mechanism that improves the throughput by detecting the uncle rate and adjusting difficulty based on the current uncle rate are those are the only two things that separate this from Bitcoin yeah another big difference is

the base file virtual machine so Bitcoin that's not happen for two machine right so it's a fixed amount of opcode and then you can use that to construct like a multi-state by simple smart contract if you will but with their bows it's full Turing complete script ability so means you know you can have like our logs and our type scripts can run the virtual machine so this is I think Sonny cut mention a little bit when we before we get to sell bottle so Rick's five it is a standard for like CPU standard CPU architecture the virtual machine of normalcy KB it's essentially like a risk five computer simulator which means all the programming languages that can compile down to like the LLVM or GCC toolchain can be then used on to script

on the blue c kb you can use these languages to write your equivalent of smart contracts on the rows so that is else they also take a big improvements over Bitcoin and also the ecliptic non-nodal we haven't got to yet but we can get to that later I guess that's an important distinction as well I mean from what I was asking was more sort of protocol and consensus aspect of it yeah let's talk about risk v a little bit so risk v is a framework like a very low-level framework where that gets implemented than things like CPUs and then that's where then very low level languages get built and can interact with like core processing of computer I mean that's kind of a simplified version

of what risk v description of what is v is but why did you want to build such a low-level VM and not keep it at a sort of higher level of exception I think there are several reasons so one of the most important reason is if you look at hardware specifications it's very rare that they change or if they change it's very rigorous process and then they almost always observe backward compatibility so not to because again producing hot work is very very expensive they want to preserve the the priority investments this is perfect for blocking space because long chains have almost have a hardware like property means like new opcode it's very difficult it needs a lot of

justification to add it's very difficult to break the current operating system if you will and then you don't want to upgrade too often and then when you want to update often you want to be able to make sure that existing smart contract and whatnot can still be preserved from that point of view I think it's it's really good it's open protocol and then it has a lot of ecosystem players it's been rising in popularity in the last couple years it's essentially the sort of the anti Intel Alliance right so a lot of big ecosystems a lot of industry players pour a lot of money into this even it evolves and new instructions for example a always well compartmentalised it doesn't break the previous one which

is very different from other set of standards like you know what assembly because you know what assembly is sort of this standard created by this alliance of competitors of browser vendors and they have very specific concerns and then you know they have sort of conflict the interest and then they use you know for example it's a more high level virtual machine and then we can get a little bit like why lower level it's easier also it's not designed to work for like a blockchain or this other space for example for Rick's five virtual machine because of the CPU simulator we can actually use the CPU cycles to precisely measure computation unit like the equivalent pegasion

etherion right so how much the competent costs the CPU computation cycle would have exactly how many cycles that this competition will cost where it's in Wasson it's a lot more difficult because it's a higher level virtual machine that gives garbage collection so when that kind of got thrown into the whole equation it's just really difficult to do that being such a low-level programming language what's the developer experience like as a developer entering the nervous ecosystem I want to build a tap or a dhow or something what do I need to learn in addition to knowing how to code say like go for instance basically whatever language that can be compiled down to run on a Rix five

computer you're able to run on the virtual machine again that's just a computer simulator right so again as I was saying that this industry standard evolving very very fast and then there are like in just put a lot of money into this for example like the C ecosystem you can definitely you wouldn't recommend people like build smart contract with C but theoretically speaking that's the easiest way to start with the C programming and even higher languages if you sort of they can compile down to C then they can be supported as well one of the I would say like a really good property of this is that a lot of the crypto primitives are actually very well supported like in the C ecosystem a lot of the written you see

or can be easily compared down to C and so if you want to use a crypto primitive let's see you know for your zero knowledge proof solutions you'd have to wait for if you're in the heart Fork and then add that you know perk and power or things like that you can just roll your sleeves and then drop that in and then into the week five computer and then add your own library and then you can just use it very very easily we have some key members I go work on this and it's been pretty good and you know supporting some signature algorithms that's you know maybe supported by you know mobile phone chips and you know even browser so like the private key solution would be much more smooth nervous than or much faster

to get there than other solutions other platforms is there a like tutorials that people can follow for like writing smart contracts on this because like you know compiling rough start webassembly to risk drive is one thing but you also need to make sure your contracts follow the lock and typescript like rules and how those are formatted and whatnot do you answer there is I think at this by this stage the best way it's proper to pop into our telegram neural network / dev channel and to get help there so we do have you know documentation and there are developers that have built tutorials and you know show how to do things but it's definitely not as mature that's

some of the other you so I will recommend that developers want to grow their sleeves just come to talk to us we're all hanging out there so we're very friendly yet helpful let's move on to last thing that we met we talked about which was you know the big differentiator I do is the economic model of ckb can you tell us about what CK bytes are and why that economic model was chosen in order to design a multi-asset story assets chain again so this is kind of our tagline for layer 1 protocol and so I just our first question the native token of the nervous CK beats called CK bytes right so one secret byte one coin if you will

represents one byte a claim to one byte of global state so in a way if you own you know let's say 10000 SEK bytes your own 10000 over the global state right you 10,000 bytes of the overall global state in the blockchain the reason we do this so I'll start with a problem then we can talk about like why we arrived at the solution and one of the differentiator I feel that to really become a good layer one is if transactions are moving to layer 2 and that's where you know it's cheaper and faster and everything to do transactions then what's the purpose of layer 1 right so in our view layer 1 is should be for asset preservation or provide security

and sort of this censorship resistance which is on a decent property for the assets so layer 1 should be where assets are and then different from Bitcoin Bitcoin there's only one asset which is BTC itself on the Bitcoin blockchain on any smart contract platform do you have many infinite user-defined assets the goal of the rare one protocol is to make sure it provides the sustainability so that the assets are going to be long-term secure right so this is what we call the concept called store of assets or multi assets storm value right if you can pay Bitcoin to single as a store value what are the properties that when you design the sort of multi asset store value system don't think about

this right so think of when you have multiple assets let's say on etherion miners in aetherium my nerds are paid with fixed amount of ETH per block so in Bitcoin miner to pay what fix amount of BTC per block and this makes sense and this will make their economic work because if the asset value increases a thousand times right if bitcoins value creation thousand times the miners income will also appreciate a thousand times because they get fixed amount of BTC per block so this makes Bitcoin a good store value because yeah it's like when you have a

city right so when you assets are appreciating then the defense automatically depreciating as well the protocol can provision defense you know that's the asset value rights and go down so I you fear him that's not the case because if the assets on etherium goes up and down right they have almost no correlation with the eighth value so in other words if you think about this hypothetically the ideal native token for your theorem blockchain right if you take the store as a so you know mindset the ideal native token should be some sort of the index fund unit of all its assets weight by you know market cap

then a single unit of that index fund can be used to pay miners because then if this whole ecosystem goes up and down you know the whole asset value goes up then this native value also goes up and provide more protection for the security of the protocol but for aetherium use entirely different eth asset to admire composition so as your all the crypto as on the urine goes up like 10 times 100 times you can't guarantee that the defense will go up winter and this provides in our mind this is the issue for economics because attackers can always just attack your sort of you based consensus protocol to be able to

double stand these assets if there's enough incentive if maker token really appreciate that many times then they can attacked the adherence algorithm another flip side of this it greeted the different side of the same coin the flip of this is you can think of aetherium it's really that if holder ETH holder that provides security by volunteering diluting the eath supply to provide a security to the miners but these crypto asset holders are not making similar contribution right so these tokens might not inflate and then pay the miners for their because they're their asset also protected but they're not contributing to this common good and then whenever

you have this chatter of Commons issues when the incentives are not aligned and you're not making people to contribute to the common good then it can be abused in their view issues and you got you know people that free ride the security and then in our mind it's not sustainable so how do you turn to CK bytes into that index fund it's very difficult to truly build an index fund right on the blockchain so the example I gave is to point to a direction that you know where we need to think about this issue and then that the solution in our mind resides in the fact that you need to have a native token that can capture the demand of all the crypto assets running on the blockchain right so in

other words if I'm a maker holder token holder and I need to hold it maker token I need to contribute to the blockchain over our security as well so it needs to be this single asset that can capture the demands of all the assets on the blockchain the other one is that this sort of contribution has to scale over time in other words if I hold my token for longer than then to contribute more to the security of the network right so it has to scale with both space and time so our native tokens got sticky bytes which represent the claim to the global state so the idea is any crypto asset demand will result in occupation of the local state if maker for example grows

and you know their market cap and more users and then they will also occupy more of the global states which put demand on the native token so the native token is basically this value capture of the heart go system if you will so this is we typically like to hear what make the analogy of land right so you can open different shops you can open you know McDonald's and laundry laundromat and all the different shops they are very different in their own way and they have their own ecosystems and you know economic properties but they all occupy land so whatever shop you open they will put demand on land their soul and its then this value capture of this ecosystem so the single property or single assets

that can capture the value of the multiple assets or economic being build on the blockchain so that's I think our insights it seems to capture the number of users that are holding a token but not exactly the value of the tokens right because let's say there's a 1 million users holding mkr if the value of mkr can access suddenly that doesn't actually increase the amount of storage that NPR is using only if it's the number of and care holders Texas does it increase the demand for storage if you add another Prien sumption which is the global state it's scarce it has to be a

if it's an infinite resource then you're right but if it's a scarce resource which means it's actually market priced right so which means that the more demand you put on land you actually drive up the land price so which means if you think about a corporation balance sheet right if the cost of preserving value or you know build a building in the city it's as much if it is very high then I will not build the building here because the relative cost is too high if maker value increases that will decrease the relative cost of every single holders relative cost of coding on a blockchain so if they cost me 10 cents to store a thousand dollars of value for

me that's no-brainer so if it cost $100 to store a thousand dollars that is different calculation so the way we see this is it would be sort of a process because the global state the scarce resource it will become a process of value density on keep increasing and as you keep increasing those lower value sort of application or occupation will be slowly move out up the blockchain and move - later - and then probably use some sort of proof and really simple ones case to utilize the security guarantees but maybe make some sacrifices somewhere else and that the high-value assets are still going to be kept on layer one because again this is the most secure

consensus and everything as value goes up at the value density goes up so encourage people to stay and they encourage you to occupy or not to leave because the relative causes is lower what do we also just start to see people move towards more off change state so instead of actually holding a lot of data on in a Cell they just store hashes in the cell like root state hashes in the cell and then pass in the data when they make the transactions so it'll kind of be like stateless verification on etherium and that way any user would really only ever have constant demand for state because they could take all

their personal state and put it into one 32 by - I think it's all trade-offs right so again we try to make the analogy of let's say Manhattan's land right so in the early days because the land is so cheap and then you can just build fast for restaurants in there and they're not feeling like this is wasteful because almost cost you nothing to acquire the land and build a shop you won't just drop a skyscraper in Manhattan on day one because it's not that it's impossible I mean you you make sacrifices which means you have to ride the elevator up at them every day right so for like what you described it's putting state route and you know sort of proof on layer one does have these consequences as well because you

probably have some to latency trade-off you have to make and then you know if you're running on a platform maybe there's talking economics assumptions or live Lintz assumptions of you know watchtowers you have to make those assumptions so those are not without its cost or trade-offs so what we foresee is when the cost of global state it's low then people will come directly built on layer one sort of you know build your sort of Manhattan in the early days and then as more valuable applications come up and then the ecosystem grows the land price will increase and then will automatically provision higher security and then protect more protection and again what

we believe is this is actually has a positive feedback loop which is just about very very few parted feedbacks I actually gave a talk on flywheel economics and I think last year's crypt economic conference on the specific topic that we can get to that or this is part of feedback loop well it's very important because the most important requirement or demand of assets on blockchain is its security right it's not a storage cost right this is some people feel like oh you know store it's getting cheap and cheaper but why is this getting more expensive the answer is you're not just saving something there right you are saving something of

huge a very very important value so what you're paying for is really the protection of the security as a store of asset blockchain becomes more valuable you know have more protection it will attract more valuable assets to migrate to the blockchain and as you migrate to the blockchain then this is the positive feedback loop it will increase the token because you put more demand on the token and then increase the property and then you attract more valuable assets that is the flywheel that we talked about and I feel you almost have to have this sort of talking an homage to be able to be sustainable and to preserve more and more assets the other chain that I think

does a very similar economic model is AOS right because they also have this sort of similar notion of holding us tokens grant you access to more computational resources and storage resources so the RAM it's you and net that they have their model that gets much more complex because of you know I think they added too much complexity there one thing that does make sense is for them each token represents a percentage share of the capacity rather than an absolute amount given that CK bytes is a you know thick supply the system that means that there is a fixed amount of storage that is ever possible on the system and doesn't that like you know as we see advancements in storage and

storage becomes cheaper over time wouldn't we want to basically maybe have total storage size be a governance parameter and your CK bytes is a percentage of that and as storage gets better over time over the years then we can increase the total network size very good question so I think I'll dissect instant detangle this in a few ways the cost is not just about that hard drive space the really the cost for the entire network is that we limit the globos we kept the clocks with the monetary policy right so you can every year the maximum total global state it's predictable that's governed by the monetary policy how much secure bytes you issue over

time we do this to make the scarce resource the reason is that we want to do this none no compromise the Sanitation approach in other words this the goal of doing this is to preserve this annotation right so that everybody can run the phone just like a BTC philosophy everybody can write a full note it's very cheap it's very fast to sync developer table to always have to depend on in Fuhrer for different applications and then there's not this very very expensive you know full node that will take days to synchronize and all that right everybody can verify it dependently transactions and that's what we believe it's necessary for a true the satellites global network if you do that then you have to cap the global state it's not

that your hard drive is not large enough right it can increase many many folds in the future but the way we tap it it's because we want to preserve the distillation properties and also like how fast a network can sink in and things like that so with this dissertation itself it's really public good it's really a piece of public goods so which means everybody has to contribute to it if you think about our issues which is part of the economics if you think about this issuance policy we have a big coin like to the fixapply as you said we call this first issuance or not based issues right so this is a Bitcoin like fixed supply issues that is not enough because I talked about

earlier that people that preserve assets on the blockchain have to pay with the time that they preserve their assets on the blockchain so this is in the etherium cost state rent right so that the whole concept of the rent how do you pay for these and and things like that because our native currency is a byte of the global state we come up with the mechanism that you can pay rent automatically with issues so this is what we call secondary issues so the idea here is this imagine on Bitcoin you only want to charge a certain type of Bitcoin holders how do you do that right let's say the people who use et et EXO to store like its color going to store

some other data then balance how do you charge only done four feet for state rent so the way that we do it is okay so instead of I say bitcoins issuance is 50 25 like it goes down every four years and then we tack something along with that schedule effectively will be like 50 126 13.5 and so on so forth there's constant component of the issuance we call secondary issuance right for each block and then imagine you can give everybody this one block first and then you take away the ones that are not using their global their CK bytes to store data to store state then you sort

of compensate them for the issuance and then for the people that do you ticket by to store state there are the additional issuance will go to the miners so if 30% of the seek advice owners use their coin to store state and then 65% of the people they just don't use their secret back to store states right then 30% of the second issuance will go to the miners eventually if we give everybody the same coin that would be you know saying issuance that would be fair to everybody but then you sort of divert this part to the miners so the longer you use your your secret buy to store data your keep

paying miners a percentage of issuance that would have been given to you and then we have a special smart contract or the nervous Dao and if you save your coin you native token to the nervous Taos in our contract you will automatically receive exactly the same sort of yield or a percentage of income or percent of the second issuance so that for you as if the second issue does not exist and you are holding a Bitcoin like fixed supply native token so what kind of projects are being built on nervous what are the initial types of applications that you're seeing here we launched may not like two months ago and

then already seeing the type of applications I think is best for nervosa is asset based or asset focused for the applications and then you know broadly you can put them into defy sort of camp we want to be is this you know you could think about normal network itself it's also this multi blockchain topology similar to customers in polkadot and whatnots right the difference is we want to have this one single blockchain that concentrates value and then all the other block chains are specialized for scaling so in a way like in the finance world you can think about this is like your custody provider but decentralized obviously and that all the other ones are like transaction based systems so that's the overall sort of my model from

the most network where can people learn more about nervous and essentially you know if they're interested in in building a blockchain how can they get started go to our website network and I think the best way to get a quick understanding of the project jury dollar petitioning paper and just go to the website you see the petition paper there it goes to what autumn we talked to today thanks Kevin for your time today thank you guys Thank You Sebastian and sunny thank you for joining us on this week's episode we release new episodes week you can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcasts and if you have a Google home or Alexa device you can tell it to

listen to the latest episode of the epicenter podcast go to epicenter TV slash subscribe for a full list of places where you can watch and listen while you there be sure to sign up for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your inbox as they're released if you want to interact with us guests or other podcast listeners you can follow us on twitter and please leave us a review on iTunes helps me behind the show and we're always happy to read them well thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week [Music] [Music]