Karia Samaroo on Bittensor and decentralized AI

Transcript

I only Bitcoin and Tao. I own nothing else. >> All right. Walk me through why only Bitcoin and Tao. And first of all, just like mad mad respect on the convention on that. But just yeah, give give me the thesis on these two assets here. >> Okay. So, I guess the personal story is that >> Everyone is talking about the intersection of crypto and AI, but what is the future of decentralized AI? When is it going to take off? And what do investors need to know about it? Hello and welcome to the Milk Road Show, the podcast that wonders if anyone has tried asking AI to fix Bitcoin. And make no mistakes. I'm your host, John Today is July 1st. We will be releasing this episode on July 3rd. And today we are joined by Karya Samaroo. Karya is the founder and CEO of X-Tao, a company

focused on the BitTensor Tao ecosystem that acquires and stakes Tao tokens for its corporate treasury, while also operating validators and building infrastructure to support decentralized AI subnets and applications. He's doing a lot of things in the BitTensor ecosystem. He's also the founder of WonderFi, a Canadian crypto platform acquired by Robinhood, which I want to talk to him about as well. Uh Karya has become a very prominent public figure and advocate for BitTensor. He's going to share a ton of alpha with us today. So, that all sounds good to you. Make sure you like and subscribe. Share this episode with somebody who's going to enjoy it. Today's episode is brought to you by Bitget Stocks 2.0 with real liquidity, real dividends. Without further ado, welcome to the Milk Road Show. Karya, how are you?

>> I'm doing well, John. Thanks for having me. >> I'm really excited to talk to you today. I have a lot of questions for you. Our community has been very focused on AI and crypto, but we'll get to all that in a minute. I want to talk first about WonderFi. You are the founder and former CEO of WonderFi. It was just acquired by Robinhood very recently here. This was the largest crypto exchange in Canada. Talk to me about the inspiration for launching this and some of the hurdles you had to overcome on the way of growing this and you know, culminating with this big acquisition with Robinhood here. >> So, before I started WonderFi, there were a lot of issues with crypto exchanges. We've seen that obviously through a bunch of different cycles, um going back to Mount Gox, but there were, you know, just a lot of trust issues

with crypto platforms. And I think at the same time, crypto's still, as it is today, it's really intimidating and, you know, complicated for a lot of people. Um probably not so much your audience or or, you know, people that are in our circles, but just for the general public. And so, the vision for WonderFi was creating a regulated, trusted, consumer-friendly platform for crypto. And that was really the the opportunity that that we saw at that time. And so, we really set out to, you know, do that and also put Canadian crypto on the map. Um I think there's a, you know, a ton of great tech companies and crypto companies, frankly, that come out of

Canada, but there were there hadn't been anything in the exchange space that we felt could kind of compete on a global scale and get the recognition that I think, um was was really there and and kind of waiting. And so, uh that was that was the inspiration behind it. And um and then we really just kind of pulled together the best people and the best tech, um in in the country, to to build, um what would become WonderFi. >> It's awesome. So, this acquisition from Robinhood, this is a big move from them. Talk to me about where that fits into their overall crypto strategy. They're, I think, launching their own Robinhood chain, just recently announced. There's a lot going on in that space. Where where does WonderFi factor into all of that?

>> Yeah, so I think in two ways, Robinhood, you know, as you said, they're making a lot of bets on crypto and not just fringe bets. They're really integrating crypto into the whole company strategy. And um so, yeah, their own chain, um you know, launching all types of different crypto products, uh tokenized stocks. It's really like broadly across the whole company, which is I think just encouraging to see in general when you have one of the major fintech players like that that's really doubling down on crypto.

Um and then the other part is their international expansion. So, they they acquired WonderFi. Um they acquired Bitstamp. Um and there is, you know, other strategic acquisitions that they're making to enter different markets. And so, WonderFi kind of fell into both of those buckets. Uh international. Um it was it's their Canadian entry point. And you know, they could have easily spun up Canada themselves, but I think that the regulatory landscape in Canada's difficult. And you know, we had done a lot of work in on the regulatory side with WonderFi, which was which was um you know, quite challenging. And then just kind of bringing together, you know, um a couple million users made it a really attractive target for that. Um but but yeah, it's uh it's part, you

know, part of part of both of those strategies for them. And I I think it's uh you know, it's exciting to see that. >> Guys, listen. We are at a very crucial point in time right now. AI stocks have ripped. They're going to keep ripping. Our analysts on the AI side are up like literally 100% or more on quite a few calls. And crypto is about to boom again, or at least it feels that way. If you want all the inside on what we're buying, what our analysts are doing, what's on their watch list, all of that is in Milk Road Pro. So, join at the link below. >> Yeah, so okay. Let Let me ask you this. There's been a lot of developments and evolution in crypto on this journey towards mainstream adoption. What is this move by Robinhood to bring WonderFi in mean for the direction of crypto's

evolution here of going from standalone like crypto only platforms towards more of these like bundled like super app financial platforms. Talk to me about that direction of travel and how you see that playing out. >> To me, it's just the most exciting thing because for for a company like WonderFi, how you know, being acquired by like Coinbase for example would have been, you know, great and you know, prior to the acquisition we were looking at expanding WonderFi into the US and into other jurisdictions. You know, we had entered Australia and you know, we're looking at the UK and things like that. And so that was always part of the growth strategy for WonderFi was really, you know, create a world-class company and and and enter

new markets. But I think another another path is obviously partnering with someone that is more established. And I think that I bring up Coinbase because again, that would have been really exciting to partner with you know, a large established crypto company like that. But I think it's more exciting to find a partner like Robinhood who is not a crypto company. And it, you know, it's one of I think several acquisitions where it's a tradfi company acquiring a crypto company. And I think that just shows you know, directionally where finance is headed and where fintech companies are placing their bets.

So, you know, really exciting to to see that and I think we're just going to see more of that because again, they're not It's not these fringe bets like some of those large players were making back in 2027 2018 2017 2018. It's really like, oh, this is central to their strategy and I think that's really really big for for crypto. >> Yeah, and there's a lot that's changing there and we'll have to keep in touch with that as we go. I want to talk to you about Tao and about BitTensor, but first I want to kind of like frame your thoughts, your perspective on this centralized AI versus decentralized AI conversation, debate, whatever you want to call it.

Dario from Anthropic, the CEO of Anthropic said recently before Congress that open source AI was heading down a dangerous path and it seems like he's, you know, wary of decentralized AI. But I wanted to get your reaction to those comments and just get your thoughts on the risks of having AI be too open source or too centralized and how you think about that in terms of just, you know, what what's best and what outcomes we want to see from this technology. >> Mhm. Yeah, such a good question to start with because I think it's true like, you know, as these models get more powerful and uh capable there inherently is more risk in them.

It's like the tool is becoming more sophisticated. And so I think if we look at that as sort of a headline with what he said it it's it's like, okay, that, you know, that that that is scary. But then just looking I I I and I guess to go into that further like open source, you know, does have some risk. It's like anybody can use it, anyone can access it. And but more importantly, it creates transparency and accountability and um open source models can be reviewed and understood by anyone. And so to me it just kind of comes back into like, okay, the the argument there is that this incredibly powerful tool is accessible to everyone.

And it's it's like, okay, well, is that more dangerous or is it more dangerous that this incredibly powerful tool is is only accessible by two companies or three companies. So I just kind of find it, you know, really funny because it is it's true in a way, but I think it misses the the the bigger point, which is that centralized AI is, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of dangers there um which which I you know, I know we'll go into, but that's that's my thoughts on on on that comment. >> [snorts] >> You're very committed to decentralized AI and crypto. Why is decentralized AI so important to you?

>> Yeah, well, after WonderFi I was really, you know, doing a bit of soul searching and thinking like, okay, Bitcoin was the most important thing to me that you know, in the last 10 years and you know, set out to create better access to that and I'm like okay, well, what's next? And obviously AI was you know, is everywhere and I think the more time I spend learning different AI tools and just you know, getting acquainted the more excited that I got but then also the more terrified that I got um because I'm like okay, this this is clearly growing at a you know, an alarming rate and it's extremely useful and I'm using it for everything and I'm

you know, giving my data to all these companies. I'm I'm it's and it the products and it it happens more and more every week, right? It's like a new product comes out that's even more compelling that you're like that everyone even people that are really you know, educated on the topic so like okay, I'm just going to like put all my information in this like because the utility is so high. Like here's my here's my health issues. Here's my finances. Here's what my company's doing. Here's what you know, people are using it as as a therapist. Here's my like deepest emotional issues and it's like there's no you know, there's no guarantee that that's not going to be used and I think we've seen in earlier evolutions prior to AI companies dealing with sensitive

information and mishandling it um you know, not being truthful about how it's being used. I don't know why 23andMe comes up as a as an example for me where I remember when that came out, I was really interested in this like genetic testing piece and like man, this is like there's no way this doesn't work and then you know, then then it's like oh, now they're like licensing that your data to insurance companies and they're you know, to like this and that and it's like holy That is terrifying. And so I think this is even getting further when you talk to you know, when you really get to the um brass tacks with like a friend or a colleague or whatever and you ask them what information they're putting into

Chat GPT or Claude, it's you know, it's >> [laughter] >> it's scary. And so for me it just that just became more and more apparent where I'm like, okay, this is this is a huge huge issue. So I kind of really started to yeah, try and search for different solutions that were being built and that's how I came across the concept of decentralized AI and then eventually BitTensor. But I think that it's it's it's so critical to me for the same reason that Bitcoin is so critical because it's and even more, you know, even more so than Bitcoin because you know, our money is a critical tool, a store of value, a way we interact with the world and with

other people and the fact that, you know, we don't really own that is problematic and and so, you know, Bitcoin solves that and and I think that I just look at at decentralized AI and BitTensor in the same way where AI intelligence is a is a more valuable tool than money in in my opinion and I think just from like a statistical standpoint. And so, you know, why should we be like going down the same route there and and really centralizing and aggregating all of this wealth of information and and power with with a few companies that, you know,

have questionable and it's that's not to call out, you know, Anthropic or OpenAI specifically, but it's just like inherent in a centralized company that there's going to be issues with governance, how information is used and then there are incentives to use that in ways that are not advantageous to society and to to to users. >> A lot of people have called Bittensor the Bitcoin of AI and there's some similarities there. There's 21 million TAO tokens. There's also 21 million Bitcoin tokens. There's a having schedule. I believe right now there's a little bit over like 11 and a half or so million TAO tokens in circulation. The rest of that comes out and you know,

there's there's a having schedule there. But the broader Bittensor ecosystem is much different than the Bitcoin ecosystem and I'm wondering if you could explain a little bit of that to us. There are validators, there's miners and then there are subnets in the Bittensor ecosystem. Explain these different roles and and how they interact with each other. >> Yeah, so you've got it. The structural similarities to Bitcoin I think are there, which is really helpful for Bitcoiners to get acquainted with TAO because there's not some new emission structure, there's not some new, you know, token structure for them to get familiar with. It's like this is something that has worked for, you know, for Bitcoin and so it's just easy for people to sort of port over to it. And then it gets like infinite

infinitely more complex, but at a starting point, yes, there's there's there's miners like in in like on the on the Bitcoin network and then there's validators and there's subnet owners. And really the goal of Bittensor is to create the most useful output or work and that can be across so many different applications. And it's so it's really trying to coordinate all of the, you know, compute and the best talent to create the best products is really what Bittensor is is trying to do. And so the network they they call it proof of

useful work, which I think is really uh on point. And people that are not contributing to the network get kicked off or do not get rewarded in a sufficient way. And so it just, you know, it it um it really is selecting the best, you know, the best performers. But basically subnet owners are defining what problem is being solved. So that might be aggregating compute, that might be building a specific type of model.

It's really anything across the sort of AI and machine learning stack. A subnet owner can come in and say this is a problem and we're going to solve it and this is how we're going to define the problem. So I'll give I'll give one example. Um there's a a subnet that's focused focused on deep fake detection. So figuring out is this image real or is it fake? And so that subnet picked the problem and then they define, you know, in a very granular level, like what does it like, you know, how do we how do we how do we define success of whether somebody can solve this problem. And so the subnet owner defines the problem and then miners are going out and building

models and training models to solve that problem. And they're, you know, they're solving these problems like, you know, minute by minute on the network. And then the validators, which is the third the third um party of the three, are scoring the miners' outputs and saying, "Okay, you know, miner number 23, they scored this well across the um you know, across the challenges that they were sent. And then and then each of those parties is rewarded tau based on how well they've performed. Um so it just ends up creating an extreme it's a hyper-competitive environment. It's extremely It's extremely difficult to be a successful miner on Bittensor. And,

you know, a lot of the miners that are on the network are PhDs in their specific field and and you know, I guess just for broader context there's there's over 100 subnets on Bittensor and they're all focused on different tasks. And so if you you could mine really successfully on you know, a text to video subnet because you are an expert in in that field, but then you know, on more of an LLM focused subnet, you're not going to be able to compete because there's going to be people that are so specialized in that. So miners are not successful across multiple subnets. It's really like you know, recruiting experts in these specific areas and showing them that hey, we can

actually get paid to do what we're best at and it's really you know, it's turning out to be really attractive for miners which you know, effectively are kind of the lifeblood of the network. >> Everyone's tokenizing stocks these days, but almost nobody's doing it right. Thin liquidity, prices that drift from the real thing, dividends that just vanish. Bitget Stocks 2.0 is different. Real NASDAQ and New York Stock Exchange depth through licensed brokers. Prices mapped one-to-one, dividends paid to your account in real time, plus you get the lowest fees in the market at just .04% and you can trade them like any other crypto as margin, in earn, in grid trading. Tokenized stocks finally done right. Head to milkroad.com/bitget

to get started. >> Okay, so just so I'll repeat this back to you to make sure I understand this. You've got this this broader ecosystem called the Bittensor ecosystem, then there are subnets within there, you say over 100 of them, and each of the subnets does a different task or offers a different product or service. The miners do the work and the validators check the work of the miners. How do the the emissions and the rewards come to these these different participants in the ecosystem for doing this work? Is it just fees that are paid from users? Is it all reliant more on the emissions of new Tao tokens?

How does that get broken down between miners and validators? Talk to us a little bit about that and how all these actors are getting rewarded for the work they're doing. >> Yeah, great question. So, it's similar to Bitcoin where the rewards, so on you know, on Bitcoin the rewards for miners are coming from network emissions until you get to that 21 million Bitcoin that are issued. And so it's it's the exact same for for Bittensor. The rewards are coming from emissions of of Tao that has not been issued yet effectively. So, every block a certain amount of Tao are are issued and they're split between miners, validators, and subnet owners. It's 41% goes to miners, 41% goes to validators, and then about

18% goes to subnet owners. And then within those pools that gets broken down based on who's performing the best and who's you know, who who who's the most involved in um in each of those. Um so, that's that's sort of how the that's how the Tao emissions work and how they're spread out amongst the different network participants. >> Okay, yeah. I think I'm familiar with this is I think called the dynamic Tao emissions model. And you know, so subnet validators get 18% and then 41 41 I think it is are going to the other validators and the miners based on how much work they're doing. Um I want to ask you from your perspective at X-Tao which we got to talk about X-Tao. I got to bring that into the conversation. We haven't even talked

about your new project, but how sustainable is this subnet economy once we get towards the end of that emissions schedule, right? Like you said like Bitcoin only has 21 million hard cap supply. Same thing with Tao. At a certain point we get to the end of that emissions of of new Tao, then do we rely on fees? And then do you think once we get to that point the economy that is in the Bittensor ecosystem will be self-sustaining without those emissions? >> Mhm. Yeah, so really the fee it's a it's a key question because the the whole thesis behind Bittensor is that structuring a network like this can coordinate all of this intelligence and compute to create models that are competing with and exceeding centralized

AI companies and and models. And on that front we're we're already seeing that not across the whole network by any means, but you're definitely seeing models that are created on the Bittensor network um surpassing centralized competitors. So the you know, the the validation is there that this is possible. Um and it's attracting, you know, resources in in the right way. And then the second part of that is that if these subnets are not able to create meaningful revenue outside of their Tao missions, then everything fails. Like it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. And so

the goal is to be able to create good enough products through coordinating all this mining power that the subnets can then go out and, you know, sell the product and bring in external revenue. And so that's really the critical point for Bittensor that needs to happen. And so far there's very significant milestones that have been hit by some of the top subnets. Like three of the top five subnets that are focused on more kind of like the AI compute application, they're doing about 20 million in ARR collectively, which is, you know, which

is you know, still on the smaller side, but it's it's definitely showing that, you know, these products are usable and there's enough interest from people that know nothing about Bittensor. Um they're just looking for like AI compute solutions. Um I think that is that's extremely encouraging. And then when you go down the list of subnets, you're seeing a lot of subnets kind of in the top 50% that are generating some sort of revenue, and the network's really moving more towards more transparency amongst subnet owners, you know, showing you know, reporting how much revenue they're um generating, what their cost is, and just kind of moving more to like I definitely see it moving more towards

kind of more of like a public company disclosure type of setup for different subnets so you can see cuz really every subnet is, you know, a company on its own effectively. And so more transparency around that is is better. Um and I think that's you know, if there's one metric to pay attention to to identify whether TAO is succeeding or not, I think it's rev it's external revenue in in my opinion. >> I got you. I appreciate that answer. I think that framing it that way each subnet is sort of its own company, its own business. Businesses have to earn money. The you know, that we'll see how that plays out, but we'll separate the the subnets that survive from the ones that don't by seeing who actually

generates the revenue. Uh I I want to talk about xTAO, and I'd love to hear what you think about this in terms of how you define xTAO. Are you guys a subnet? Are you You're doing a lot of things. And And the other thing, too, you guys are staking TAO, which you didn't mention it so far in this explanation. So tell us what staking means, and then you guys are also running validators in the ecosystem. Talk to us about xTAO and how you you see yourself in this ecosystem. >> Yeah. So xTAO is a public company that owns a large amount of TAO and runs a validator on the BitTensor network, um which is one of the one of the leading validators on the network. So we talked about the validator role. Validators are engaging with every subnet uh or

it doesn't have to be every subnet but like what for X tau we are and keeping up to date with the subnet and making sure that they can appropriately score the work that's happening on that subnet. So it's you know it's not as intensive of a role as a miner like the amount of work and resources that goes into running a miner on a subnet is like you know an order of magnitude more but a validator is you know it's it's an essential part of the network. So with X tau we're we're running the X tau validator and you know really in addition to that trying to just create a trusted entry point for tau in the public markets. We launched the company sort of just just as the wave of

treasury companies was was starting last year which obviously has since imploded in a pretty significant way which you know I'd love to talk more about that but yeah for for X tau I think it's really just I mean this kind of goes back to wonder fi it's like how do you create something that's trusted and simple and accessible for people that doesn't have a bunch of like around it and I think with with bit tensor what I have learned is it is so much more complex than Bitcoin for example and it still takes people a long time like it took me years to

years and years to like really understand what Bitcoin is and bit tensor is way more complex and it changes every week in terms of like you know network upgrades and things that are happening and so I think being you know one of the key sort of paths to broader adoption of decentralized AI and bit tensor is just simplifying things. So, that's another, I think, part of my conviction behind like why we've struck, you know, why we structured X Tau in this way and why we're communicating about it in this way because it's Yes, it's important to understand all of the things that are happening behind the scenes like, you know, in the weeds of Tau. At the end of the day, you

know, people just want to understand like why is this important and what does this mean? And um and I think there's, you know, there's a big opportunity um in decentralized AI um for for that type of um that type of communication. >> You talked a bit about digital asset treasury companies and there have been a lot of different companies who've tried to do this and they've used different assets as their treasury asset. You of I think have also gone out of your way to say that, you know, X Tau is not just a digital asset treasury company. Talk to me about the fullsome strategy of X Tau here beyond just, you know, staking Tau, running a validator. How do you see that that strategy evolving as BitTensor

evolves, as X Tau grows? What is the strategy beyond just being a treasury company? >> Mhm. Yeah, so for sure the validator is like a a key piece. It's a it's a critical piece of infrastructure on the network and that really creates like this significant operating business for us. And I think that on different on other networks it might not be as involved as it is on on BitTensor, but since there's new subnets that emerge every day, um subnets make changes every day that changes their validation mechanism, it's really like a lot of um you know, it's a lot of work that goes into the validation piece. So, that's kind of that's really like, I guess, you could

call it the core business of X Tau and having a large amount of Tau is complementary to that because it supports our validator, it draws more people to stake to our validator, um which which generates more revenue for the company. And then I think it's just overall positive for the network to have a publicly traded auditable validator and just and large network participant. And so that's kind of how that's how we look at X Tau. There are other infrastructure opportunities that we're always exploring and we're, you know, extremely engaged with a lot of the subnets and and different network participants.

But I think that we're keeping it fairly simple. I think there's a lot of opportunities to get into more kind of complex plays within the BitTensor ecosystem, but I think I view our role as, you know, this simple entry point and the more, you know, you can go down the chain so much on Tau and get all these like really complicated but super compelling products. But you know, nobody nobody outside of the network understands what they are. So we're really kind of remaining focused on the on the or you know, you think you know what they are and then you're like, okay, well, this is I don't know. There there there's some extremely high risk but super super cool things that are happening. But yeah, we're just staying focused on on the

core infrastructure for for X Tau. >> There are some extremely high risk but super cool things that are happening could be a great description of this entire investment landscape [laughter] right now. I want to ask about what success looks like for BitTensor. If this does succeed in becoming sort of this decentralized intelligence layer for the internet and for the globe really, what does that world look like? Are you know, is is like Google and Microsoft running subnets on BitTensor? What does that success scenario look like for you? And then, you know, for me as a user, for somebody who maybe has never used BitTensor, what does that relationship look like? How am I going to interact with this? And just walk me through what that world looks like in in a scenario where BitTensor works out and succeeds and becomes this decentralized

intelligence layer. >> Yeah, I do see that that situation where people are using Bittensor and they don't know it. I think that that's a critical piece and it's, you know, some of the top subnets are, you know, already living that or working towards that where they have extremely high-quality products that they're offering that you you have no idea that Tao is behind it. You can you can still find that out, but essentially it's, you know, Bittensor and crypto or are not not a part of how it's presented to the user. So, I think that's I think that's a sort of a, you know, a future success marker.

I think another one is that, you know, companies like like you said Google and Microsoft are using Bittensor because I think if the network gets to where we see it going and what what the potential is, then it becomes this incredibly valuable resource that people can just go and say, "Okay, we're going to we're going to start a subnet, focus it on this project that we're working on, and then immediately we're going to have all of these world-class miners, experts in the area, just flock to this and start building and do it in a in a permissionless way.

And that is, I mean, you know, biases aside, I just think that's an incredible way to to to see the future where you know, you can coordinate that type of intelligence and work in such a, you know, such a a rapid and open way. And it just doesn't exist right now. I think you, you know, you have so many constraints around you know, raising capital, hiring people, all these different things that exist in in kind of the current landscape. And so, I think that's, you know, that's a future kind of milestone or or or vision that, you know, that we see coming to life

with BitTensor in the future. >> What are some of the obstacles or the hurdles or just things that still need to get worked out that are preventing us from getting to that state right now or maybe not preventing but just need to fall into place, right? Is it is it technical things? Is it a capital allocation thing? Is it regulatory blockages? What are you seeing that that needs to be sort of like the first thing to get over to to get to that state where we have this successful outcome for BitTensor? >> I think a bit of it is awareness. I actually I think a large piece of it is awareness. I think that the you know the comment that you brought up earlier about the Anthropic CEO on you know the risks of well actually it sorry just brings up another thought which is the you know fable the

Anthropic model getting banned in the US and I think that so people within the decentralized AI community you know everyone's like well this is what we've been saying the whole time like this is you know this shows how you know having you know government being able to impact something so significant so quickly and being able to you know tell this company shut it down how problematic that is you can't shut down Bitcoin government can't go and say hey we're going to you know we want you to close this down.

I think it's just such a clear validation of why decentralized AI is so important and you know it's definitely just positive bullish for the category as a whole and but I think that people don't see that in the mainstream yet like people don't really get what that means and it you know while it does you know for for Tau it you know it responded really positively to that news because the community knows what's going on but but I think there is a bigger sort of awareness piece that is required and I think really in my opinion that fortunately or unfortunately only

happens when the market is a lot better and Bitcoin is stronger and people are, you know, because I think more people are drawn to the network when it's performing well like kind of from a from a price standpoint regardless of what's happening from a technological standpoint. So you need both, but I think it's it's going to be sort of three things that continue to build. One is subnets keep improving which is happening, generating real revenue, competing with centralized AI competitors. So that's just, you know, that's sort of independent of price that will just continue to happen. And then the market just improving and, you know, more capital, you know, looking at and

coming into Bittensor. And then I think the third is some of those more global AI problems that are inevitably going to happen um just like they did with you know, big banks and uh in in in in sort of like the finance realm that's going to happen with AI and it's going to happen quickly. So I think it's sort of like a intersection of those three that's going to continue to grow Bittensor and decentralized AI and and and sort of get it to that, you know, mainstream level.

>> The US government did lift its export ban on Fable 5, but the ban hammer was swung and the effect of that is still going to be felt in the market. And yeah, there's going to be this gulf between the the frontier models that are held privately and the ones that are available pub- available publicly. Um who do you see as the big competition for Bittensor and for Tao here? Is it Bitcoin? Is it Anthropic? Is it, you know, Venice? What what do you see this landscape looking like in terms of this intersection of digital assets, decentralized intelligence, and who are the the the real competitors that Bittensor is up against here.

>> Mhm. I think they're all Yeah, I I I guess when I first and you know, discovered decentralized AI, I was like, "Okay, centralized AI is a competitor." But, I don't really see it that way anymore. I think it's very similar to Bitcoin and you know, going back to the Robinhood and WonderFi discussion actually, it's like, is it not a competitor? It's going to be, you know, both centralized and decentralized are going to be part of the broader kind of AI economy. And so, I think as, you know, as Bitcoin grows, as Anthropic grows, as OpenAI grows, I think that is going to, you know, Bittensor will grow with with

those. So, I I see it as more, you know, kind of complementary. There's obviously some competing parts, but in general, I think it's similar to, you know, Bitcoin as the, you know, broader economy grows and then there's more space and more awareness around like, "Okay, here are some downfalls of the US dollar and here's how Bitcoin can solve that or here's how stablecoins can solve that." And now they're going to take up a like a larger portion of that market and start to get integrated into the like massive fintech companies and big banks in the way that, you know, Robinhood is doing.

>> All right, one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you specifically about Tao and Bittensor is that you have an enormous amount of conviction. I believe you can correct me if I'm wrong in this, but I believe you personally are mostly allocated to Bitcoin and Tao when it comes to crypto. >> Only only Bitcoin and Tao. I own nothing else. >> All right. Walk me through why only Bitcoin and Tao and first of all, just like mad mad respect on the conviction on that, but just, you know, give give me the thesis on these two assets here. >> Okay, so I guess the personal story is that like I I, you know, first got introduced to Bitcoin in 2016 and was I was like, "This is this is it." And then uh so I you know, I pivoted my career. I

was working as a lawyer um at a big law firm and I was like, "Screw this. I'm going to like find crypto founders and like work with them." And so I went all in and I went all in on Bitcoin. And then there was like a bunch of other tokens that came out. And then I was like, "Oh, well, I'm going to do this. I'm going to you know, I think it's like pretty I'm sure very relatable story for you know, you and your audience in particular. But you know, I look back on that and I didn't understand any of the other stuff I was investing. Like I just I I truly or I didn't understand pieces of it. I'm like, "Okay, this kind of makes sense."

But things were moving so quickly and so you know, I made those rookie mistakes and I was like, "You know, Bitcoin is the thing that made sense to me." And so that's I guess sort of a rule which you know, hurts me and helps me over time which is like you know, I only invest in things that I understand and that I believe in. And and so BitTensor is the only thing that I have found since Bitcoin, you know, potentially other than gold. I I don't I don't personally own any gold, but you know, it's the only thing that um that falls into that category for me.

And so as I was looking at you know, different AI investments and um you know, I'm I'm miss I'm sure I've missed out on a ton of good ones, but like this makes sense to me long-term and you know, the more um like OG Bitcoiners that I talk to and that I have become closer to over the years is just showing that like, "Okay, well, yes, they missed out on a lot of like venture opportunities where they could have you know, done extremely well." But like there's you know, it's not just a financial play for these things. Like it really is like more of a movement. For me there's been nothing that has got me more you know, brought me more energy and got me more convicted um than BitTensor um other than Bitcoin.

>> I want our audience to just understand that conviction piece of this, like Kory is saying that there's a lot of opportunities on the market, but he invests in the things that he personally believes in and deeply understands. That I think is really important, especially when we get into a bear market like this when conviction is tested and weak hands get shaken out. So, you got to know why you hold and what you hold and why. Uh, so, yeah, I really appreciate that. >> No, that's a I'm glad you summarized that because that's where I failed before, too, is I like bought stuff where I'm like, this for whatever reason and then the market goes down and you're like, And then it's just like, so, yeah, you got to have that belief and I think that you know, yeah, convic- conviction is like such a good word and I think I don't

know, it just kind of continues to evolve for me over time, but I think at the end of the day it's it's it's, yeah, something that you believe in deeply and that it is not, you know, it and it's different if I I know there's like really, you know, experienced uh, traders and I think that's like a totally different world. And one thing that I've learned over time is I'm not a trader. I'm a founder and uh, that's a very different uh, it's a very different skill set. >> I I want to talk about Tao. I don't know if you're willing to give a price prediction, but it is currently trading just over the $200 line, which has been a long-term support line for the price of Tao. Are you willing to give some sort of like end-of-year target here or a price target that you might have in

mind? Or if you're not willing to do that, are there any like catalysts that you're watching for for BitTensor or Tao in the rest of 2026 that you might see think that the market would respond very positively to that our audience should be paying attention for? Just like what's your outlook on Tao here? >> Yeah, I think I do feel like the the best signal to look for is like is revenue coming from subnets. I think that's going to within like the current investor base of Tao, like that's what's going to grow it. That's what's going to, you know, bring more buying into the actual market.

But that's, you know, that's one piece, but then it's it's really kind of like how do we bring in more awareness um from the broader crypto community and then from just the AI community into decentralized AI. And so it's I think it's those big moments that are going to be really significant um like earlier this year um on the All-in podcast, Jensen from Nvidia was uh was on and decentralized AI and Bittensor was in that conversation and that was a huge moment for Bittensor. And so there's there's definitely, you know, there's there's big advocates for Bittensor that are, you know, in kind of like the mainstream media and just in influential positions um in different AI companies and just software companies in general.

And so I think that type of, you know, that type of interest and and um awareness is going to just continue to bring more people in, which I think is really what's what's required at this time because the the continued evolution of the technology that's being built on Bittensor is there and it's just really like how do we break through and get more to like a mainstream mainstream audience, which we've seen a few, you know, big upticks in the in this year. And then I guess on price, my belief on price and again not a trader, but it's like broader macro and Bitcoin is what drives this because eventually Bittensor will not be seen as crypto and will not be kind of like categorized into crypto.

And so it will be more decoupled from what the crypto market is doing and what Bitcoin is doing, but for now it it is is, you know, very tied to that. And so um I think we need a stronger kind of macro picture for for Bitcoin to bounce back and then Tao will it will respond accordingly. >> Kory Jackson founder and CEO of X Tao, Bittensor evangelist, where can we send people to find more of you and your work online? >> Yeah, you can find X Tau and myself on X and uh that's probably the best place to to check us out. >> Thank you so much for being on the Milk Road Show. I learned a lot and I really enjoyed this conversation. I know our audience will, too. So, I hope we can have you back again and thanks so much for being here.

>> Thanks, John. >> Thank you all for joining us. I hope you all learned something today. So, until next time, as I always say, stay safe, stay educated, stay bullish, and we will see you all in the next episode of the Milk Road Show. Thanks for being here, everyone. Bye. >> Want insights on what's moving crypto markets and how we're [music] trading each event? Subscribe to our channel, join the Milk Road daily and pro newsletters, and start investing like the top 1%. [music] This show is for educational purposes only. Nothing we say is financial advice. Investing is risky. Never invest more than you can afford to lose.