Julien Bouteloup: Stake Capital/Rekt – Uncovering the Dark Side of DeFi #381

Transcript

this is epicenter episode 381 with guest julian butler [Music] hi i'm sebastian cutier and you're listening to epicenter the podcast where we interview your crypto founders builders and thought leaders on this show we dive deep to learn how things work at a technical level and we fly high to understand visionary concepts and long-term trends if you like epicenter the best way to support us is to leave a review on apple podcast if you're on a mac or ios device the easiest way to do that is to go to epicenter dot rocks slash apple and if you're new to the show be sure to subscribe on apple

podcast spotify or wherever you listen today our guest is julian butler now if you're on crypto twitter you're probably familiar with julia if you're not though i've heard different people describe him in different ways he's an entrepreneur of course but he's also been described as a crypto pirate or defy robin hood i think deep down though junior is someone who just understands the space really well and isn't afraid to call it [ __ ] when it should be she announced the founder of state capital and help summon stake dao and more recently he launched a new project which is more of a journalistic endeavor it's called wrecked i'm sure you've seen it it's got that cool frog logo and it's helped uncover and shed light on

some kind of nefarious things happening in the d5 ecosystem uh since it launched a couple months ago so this interview goes in lots of different places and we kind of intended it to be that way but we spent most of the time talking about defy junior someone who knows and understands the staking ecosystem quite well and so we spent some time talking about staking and its role in the broader d5 ecosystem uh we talked about flash loans since juvian was one of the first people to successfully execute a flash loan on ethereum about a year ago we discussed oracle arbitrage and market manipulation happening around oracles we talked about rug pulls we obviously couldn't help but discuss the binance smart chain and nfts but i think more broadly this

conversation is meant to serve as a reality check and one of the questions that we asked was will crypto create better wealth distribution around the world or will it simply move centers of power from one group of people to another well i'm still not sure but this is something that i've been thinking about a lot lately and i'm glad that we could talk about it here on the podcast speaking of things that distribute wealth and provide value for the community i'm very excited about our new sponsor stacker ventures to put it simply stacker ventures is a protocol which allows for the formation the funding and the governance of vc funds so they're decentralizing vc funds they just launched and they're growing

a community of crypto builders and enthusiasts and soon they'll begin funding early stage crypto startups i'll tell you a little bit more about them later on but if you want to check them out now and apply for funding go to stacker.vca enter your email address to request an invite and with that here's our conversation with julian butler [Music] we're here today with julian brutalup so julian you know is quite involved with a lot of things within the crypto space especially you know a lot within the ethereum ecosystem and d5 but you know also has his hands in staking and nfts and uh on the team of like one of the largest amm

platforms so working on all these sorts of things and so you know we're excited to dive in with a lot into a lot of it with him today so but you know maybe to get started julian hi i mean how did you get involved in crypto for the first place even before getting involved with the crypto i i know you were you know sort of what you've worked on a whole number of startups and i've like you know even exited quite a number of them before getting into crypto and so you know how did that like entrepreneurial drive like bring you towards crypto yeah uh well first of all uh thank you for having me on the e-center i've been following the podcast for quite some years now congratulations guys and uh i'm building this uh it's so big and very

very good quality yeah so basically my background my background is a computer science uh in electrical engineering i start uh as very deep into mathematics in france so we we call this uh like a two-year specialization really um deep in mathematics and then i moved to the u.s and i got um specialized in mastering machine learning distributed system nothing to do with crypto but i then started working for security defense company and in security defense company i was pretty healthy in in cs so the counter strike game and one of my friends i was running some computers to do files

hosting back then and in 2011 one of my friend told me to run this algorithm and and later on appear to be a bitcoin so then i got involved in in mongols and and all these different things and uh when i went back to to london uh discovered he eats there so like in 2015 so yeah i mean my my background was i built different companies um like start playing carpet it was like for satellite gathering data from from space building so machine learning that can predict the future of physical assets for example life prediction of coffee in brazil or carbon of said also did uh some

consulting company in london for machine learning work for biggest companies over there um so i guess my entrepreneurial path was always driving by trying to build some innovative ideas some of them failed and some of them got successful but um yeah that's it so really really tech guy came from the countryside of france and then moved to the us and i guess that's how i i got this vibe of the little bit of the american dream i guess i'm not sure i've always kind of thought you had a very interesting uh uh baku as we would say in france or a background uh because like you're one of these people that you know there's a few there's a few people like this right that like

they leave france like super early in their life like you know like i think you must have left france like when you were in your early 20s or something like that and like you just went to the us is that right yeah this is cutting a little bit of signal but um i lived france right after my class preparatory mathematics so i went to the u.s graduate from uh in new york state from a school called uh union uh which is like probably in the worst place to live in the us in schenectady like uh upstate new york above albany i think like at most american they don't actually go after you but this was my first i mean actually was my second second experience in the u.s because two years before prior to that experience moving to the u.s i actually believe in

in california but so i can tell you like moving from california to upstate new york in schenectady it's a pretty rough experience but i think that's how i uh yeah it was pretty amazing yeah it's really cool i think there's lots of different ways that people qualify you i actually like i was talking i was asking someone uh here in the french ecosystem uh whom you may know it's like oh i'm gonna interview judah tomorrow like what do you think i should ask him and and he was like oh the crypto pirate and i was like okay that's another uh another way that people describe judea i guess so how would you sort of describe yourself in this space i think like some people would say you're like a traitor

a crypto pirate uh you know now you're some sort of a journalist you've got a uh you know you're involved in like a hedge fund like we were talking earlier that you sometimes describe yourself as like the crypto robin hood you know what's your what's your elevator pitch essentially for how you describe yourself yeah i'm not sure actually like i mean my background is really mathematics and also uh quantitative trading so i understand i understand maths pretty well so i can i can build uh script and other terms so i can actually and i think for me quantitative trading it's passion from traditional finance when i was in london uh working in in that traditional finance i think my age

i couldn't actually get experience of traditional finance during the 90s you know when there was no regulation and it was pretty pretty much like wild wild west and what everything was possible so for me like saying i defy and understanding mathematics understanding like devops and all this stuff you can basically do whatever you want and that's pretty passion uh fascinating i would probably consider myself as yeah a defy d5 builder i try to build any ideas that i have in the morning when i wake up but i would like i i want to i want to build them i like the defined pirates and i'm not sure about different i mean if i robin hood the problem is like i also do lawful liquidation so people will probably take this one as not

a good status to my to attach to you to myself probably what's the uh i mean i i find this fascinating i i'm very envious of people who are able to kind of successfully execute on many different projects at once because this is something i have a hard time to do how do you manage to be involved in all these different things which we'll talk about today and and at the same time sort of like keep your bearings on your more longer term vision and goals yeah i think if you if you talk to muslim people they they usually tend to say oh i don't sleep much but actually i [ __ ] don't sleep very like i don't sleep like i actually don't sleep i i sleep by two three hours a night

and um apparently i'm part of this range of population that can stay i think it's like 0.1 percent or something like i'm actually sleep not much so and and i spend most of my time in front of the laptop so i have to use those hours and that's how i do that and i like to also um get some really all the people that get involved i know them personally but i think they're very good so i couldn't do what i'm doing without people around me that can execute execute those ideas because i think an idea is having an idea is pretty easy you know it's probably like 8 or 10 of project but being able to execute this idea like really fast and very well and also by simplicity

if you look at all the projects that have been involved they always respect a few different pillars and those are i don't i don't care about ux ui i just do black and white most of my projects are black and white they don't actually shield anything and just go to simplicity and that's the reason also why um i was like pretty um well when i met uh michael and kirk because it's also like part of the dna of curve it's like simplicity on a design and not into some very fancy ux or ui and so what are some of the um these initiatives that you're working on right now so you know there's the one that you mentioned that was curve uh you have the blog that you are working on wrecked you

have there's a company you have called state capital uh what what what are also some of the stuff you're actually working on these days yeah so back in 2000 i think it was 2017 doing the ico boom i i found out i mean i'm not found out but i saw the space moving into provo state and i think i remember like sunny this is where we met uh back then it was 2016 2017 2017 probably but then i was like oh [ __ ] this space is moving for proof of work so i had experience in mining in bitcoin and mining in eastern i was like okay i have i've got some assets i need to find someone a provider that can provide validation for my assets and this one the first one was

tazos so i i said okay well let me find someone and i found out that the space was pretty like it was actually starting on the proof of stake validation so i said okay why not providing proof of stake for my own my own assets that's how i started the capital so state capital was validating on tesos we made acquisition of a taser's baker called hot steak back then and then we actually start the the staking of the service staff made a partnership with equinix bare metal server in aws like really not like just getting credits actually a real partnership with those guys and then i said okay we're not opening to the retail side that's how we did now we opened to vtel got a participating game of steak on cosmos get ourselves a little bit more

knowledgeable about the people's take and then in 2018 wrote this light paper from state capital which is what state capital uh down and the idea was to basically create those liquid staking because knowing that those different blockchain will come on will come live then you will need to be able to lock your phone but also maybe use those pages either using ibc or using like all the other mechanism that's how we start and then i was like pretty pretty solid in this kind of devops environment like being able to monitor the main pool at sub 50 milliseconds across the world like load balancer centuries all different things that was basically being able to do arbitrage on the market of defy

and then when d5 boom i said oh wow sticking to the service is not actually so big compared to what uh defy can can uh can bring on a table so i actually like moved 20 of the state capital services into staking in the service as a passive income and then bootstrap and got really big in those different verticals as market maker liquidity provider arbitrage and then create the first flashlight because i was talking to ave i was talking to that and the concept of having access to unlimited liquidity as long as you invest liquidity within one block was passionate it was like so fascinating for me so i i spent like a couple of weeks working on that and then and then did the first one and then

triggered all this kind of new phase of defy where you could do like all this kind of uh flashlight and and then test all those different protocols so that's how i and then yes so so this is like state capital moving then i was like people asking me question how do you how can i participate in state capital i was like well you can run this comment line uh use the terminal but they were like yeah but where do i hide how can i stay i wanted something like violence i wanted something like true trust wallet i was like oh [ __ ] so then i create i start creating this small script for people that you can actually just buy a telegram group then get updates of the stake but this was not enough that was not

enough for my my mom or my dad to get involved and just like participate so that's how i start working on stake down and the reason why i started working on state now is not just me building stake downloads because i found someone that was like such a rock star in web 2 development that you could actually bring that experience to me on the on the side of the blockchain and this combination was really fast to create stackdown so stackdau is in place for anyone that has no crypto experience that can invest in the space but we involved like more than 6 000 people that had no experience in d5 which is pretty crazy in this space but you can do everything you can buy crypto you can swap you can exchange you can stake

and also like we have we're now building staked out v2 remember in 2017 i told you that i wrote when i was the ico instead of building an ico myself and jumping into the free cache i actually created this medium past where i was going after all the ico possible and i was saying that i was basically warning people that those ico were scams well what happened to me i got sued i got sued for quite a lot of money 3.5 million years to lost and they sued me because i was having like some defamatory i was basically calling them scammers on dragon but then explaining why so this was pretty bad experience for me for two or three years was pretty bad and then i always wanted to create this kind of newsletter to alarm

and not alarm but to warn people about what's happening in the space and that's how i came up with the concept of rect but also it's the reason why i start direct is not because i wanted to start ray because i tried to start it and i failed because i got sued no because i met someone that can actually draft and write it very well and this is actually this combination that again boosted this project uh so it's always about people not about like a single end in a space if you see someone doing a lot of different projects it means that you're actually doing with multiple different people don't believe that it's doing this alone so that's why it's not wrecked and now rick is just like going like really deep in into investigations like we do like dark modes so we don't

actually name the people behind the news never no names and and all the schools possible whatever happened on chain will be covered by expat ready to not we've been receiving a lot of ruby for news to not get listed on right when we get those it's actually the opposite we go we got full mod and we we list them and um yeah that's it and then a year ago i was pretty involved in i like the game so rare because for to be called i'm an investor and so rare and it's a french it's a french company and i quite like those guys so i said i will invest with those guys but the problem is like i got no time so i said how can i participate in the game

but i have no time and you need to play like 24 hours in this game so then i had to start getting someone and paying someone to play with my portfolio of nfts and play the game and i was like oh damn i see like axe infinity decentraland crypto voxel all those different nft companies you need 24 hours seven days a week to work on those different projects so i said okay let's start a hedge fund that will basically lend asset liquidity to those people the best managers in the place that can participate and that's how we create blackpool and now it's pretty successful that's a quick uh quick journey to my life stacker ventures just recently launched they're a community-led venture capital protocol

and accelerator and they're looking for exciting d5 projects for the first fund it's the first of its kind it's structured as a dow and stacker ventures allows anyone to participate in the governance of the protocol and the acceleration of portfolio companies stack governance tokens will be distributed to early participants in the protocol soon through a variety of participation incentives the first fund to leverage the stacker ventures framework recently launched and they're now looking for exciting defy projects to apply for funding so if you'd like to apply or if you want to refer a project or just earn stat governance tokens by helping accelerate projects you can view the first fund details at stacker.vc

and here you just need to enter your email address to request an invite we'd like to thank stackerventures for those support of the podcast so you know let's talk about the uh stakedown that you you brought up so you know i i i played around on the uh platform it's you know it's pretty nice and it's a pretty powerful like defy dashboard um but you know there are like other d5 dashboards that are available as well like you know we have like things like zapper fi and things like that one of the interesting things about stake dow is that you know it is tokenized in some way which is like you know something that like zapper for example is not so and you know obviously in the name it has the word dao in it so can you tell us a little bit about like

what is the token for here and what what is the purpose of having a dow behind the dashboard i mean i'm big fan of zapper i'm a big fan of zerio but staked out is really not like zappos the thing is like zapper or xayon they give you access to define well stackdown give you access to the services that we choose for you that we believe are the best as features for you to participate so it's very different and also all the profits all the different services that we haven't stacked down are we distributed to the people that uh have distinct our token so meaning that we don't take profits the reason then people are saying the second question is

but how do you make money well the reason is because we all have shares in stake down and also staked ours no investors we're all contributors so if you go to the page of contributors you will see like a list of 60 or 70 people that have been participating uh to build a stake down and then basically the dow you can make all the votes governance possible if you want at least like a new chain for example binance binance chain the thing is like do we agree that binance is decentralized on that discount right that's not the question if someone make a proposal on stackdown and the token holders devote for implementing um finance chain as a swap or as an auto market maker

on state dow then we'll have to do it so basically the token control any decisions that we make on the on the on the dial so for example we have different strategies and we'll have also arbitrage strategy flash loan strategy and whatever money we make inside will be distributed to a vote and anyone's taking stake down token will be able to take a fractional ownership of those different profits so state that will also become this sort of like multi-chain uh dashboard as well like not just focus on the maintenance ethereum but so as like if d5 starts to move into other chains like you mentioned with like finance chain or you know if it moves into i don't know phantom or x die

it'll or these are all like ebm compatible chains will you also be focused on non-evm compatible chains as well or how do you see the evolution of that happening so the evolution is like right now um the dow is live on eastern but um we do we do multi-chain so if you take a look to the 2017 paper light paper about state capital it described like having the ability to get involved in all the different chains and also any provider can propose this service so we welcome any validators to validate and provide the services posting down and also if we will basically the idea is to have like

liquid staking and swaps so liquid staking for people that can stake and they can also sell the the fractional ownership of this um liquid stacking that they have into secondary market and also bridges so as a user a simple scenario is i want to be able to swap between binance to dazzle super dot cosmos or whatever if it's possible if it's live and this actually capture liquidity and volumes and obviously fees for the dow so we will moving into a multi-chain uh defy society so we need to capture those different different opportunities so let's maybe start go deeper into this

and like into this like state of defy today so how how do you see this uh what d5 is going to look like now like one year from now so like today you know it's very clear that like the vast majority of d5 is happening on ethereum like you mentioned earlier you're an eth maximalist uh right now uh how do you see this evolving you know especially with like the you know gas costs and stuff today that are on ethereum is is it pushing out the the retail user you know the the users that staked out was initially uh designed for is it starting to to price those sort of users out yeah that's a good question that's the

reason why stackdale v2 will be focused on um well the thing is like what we say double v2 would be more like more concept of the centroids exchange if i can say that without telling much but basically right now participating and swiping and buying assets and staying down quite costly it's quite expensive but any any defy if you go to curve if you go like to any project you easily spend 50 bucks for for just depositing uh asset so i think the fact that blockchain is becoming more democratized and pushed by big sudden experts and influencers in the

space like maybe rihanna or like people that always been intact apparently obviously people now have access to they understa they believe or they don't actually see crypto as as something dangerous anymore so my point is like now they actually we're bringing more people into blockchain into crypto but those retail people 99 percent of all the users are not not tagged they are instagrammers they are uh people using tick tock and all this stuff so they want like something super simple and they actually frankly speaking they don't actually care about decentralization they just want to make money and that's the problem of this world space so the reason why i believe how do you see like defying the next year

it's actually defined will be will be actually controlled by centralized entity that are pretending to run defy solution or maybe getting involved in blockchain and one of them on the biggest player and actually very likely to succeed is finance because binance they understand that their retail their users don't actually care about decentralization they care about having fun with money they want to make money they want to make investment so the real question is are we feeling as a decentralized vision compared to people that only focus on money and i think finance phantom all those different chains actually are centralized uh phantom is centralized um finance is centralized like all these

different things they will start a centralized entity capture a lot of retail and then slowly but surely move into decentralization by bringing more validators and i think that's a sneaky move from them because they will they are very likely to succeed and yeah that's so that's the problem i mean that's the reason why i think it's basically putting the agenda of ether a little bit earlier that i mean now ethereum cannot play or it's coming soon or it's coming in two years i mean soon eastern when they say like it's soon it means like four or five years you know this cannot continue so i think it's really pushing item people to uh to really deliver but my point being is like if you look at all the research

i think 98 or 99 of the entire research is driving by east and right now if you go to eth research.ch and all stuff the entire developers research mathematician like really deep in computer science are all on eastern that's pretty funny that's the reason because it's easy to copy stuff but then you know um innovates probably it's it's tougher just so i understand correctly you think the strategy for chains like finance is that they start centralized and then they will decentralize later that i understand that correctly yeah it's already it's already happening if you read the latest article on vect binance chain um they're basically talking about it and

we also add like some very internal uh discussion uh from people uh from binance that now they're looking to get i'm sure sunny you got in touch with binance lately but now they're looking for vader's uh and they're looking to instead of having 10 or 15 i don't know like 10 15 they probably they're now looking for 80 like more than uh more vaders i mean it's it's a it's um businessly if you if we talk about business that's a that's that's a good move that's a good move but then if we talk about is it fair and all this stuff it's not obviously i mean if i take the devil's advocate position here like if the outcome is that the chain is decentralized and there is no central point of failure uh you know in

what it would be like finance otherwise in the central system and and that succeeds then how is that not a good strategy just generally how i mean how does it not benefit the ideals of uh decentralization well i mean it's uh it's like you know like team the english guy saying uh create the internet peer-to-peer the vision was peer-to-peer was this fully decentralized world but then big yahoo google and all those guys they start centralized structuralizing internet and then giving bridges to people and then huge huge lobby like those guys they start saying the dark net is bad you should use our bridges because the real internet the

one percent that we provide is the real internet well actually the real internet is 99 of the rest which is the dark net but then lubi was so strong to tell you that dark net is used to kill people to pedo fire for all this stuff yeah you are like very very bad actors on the darkness but actually this is a real internet but we were we were born in this belief that the real internet is the internet we can use and now if you look at all those big actors like facebook google yahoo and all those guys okay they actually provide uh the sharing economy like you have airbnb you have uber you have blablacar but then this those guys they control the entire system so my point is like the we were starting as a decentralized economy as a peer-to-peer economy then controlled by centralized entity that

now control the entire world well i feel like we're basically replicating it again we're saying okay it's fine if those guys they copy six years of research five years of research because it's open source build their own staff acquire a lot of retail i could create a lot of power and then those retailers they will never leave the platform because they are actually inside the system and they will never make the bridge between changing for example like if you're an iphone user changing to a google user it's very difficult or google user going to an iphone one it's like it's a mindfuck total because they don't actually give you the tools to do so so what's happening exactly the same we're starting as a central they're starting as a centralized entity getting a lot of power on the market and then soon it will say oh but listen look

we share the same vision as you guys we have a decentralized system that you guys can use and you can be your own bank you can be your own company and that's it so i mean it's a fair game they're playing i mean it's not new traditional finance um if you look at facebook facebook got copied in russia in asia they all have their own facebook they all are their own uber they all have their own airbnb so it's not new it's just the way it's actually made trying to trick the users into belief that they are in control of their own keys and all this stuff i think this is different different picture now i hear that argument and i think it's it's a super important thing uh to consider as like you know if we think of like the long-term vision of

crypto and i've been thinking a lot about this recently are you familiar with uh ben thompson and strategy he's a like very yeah right from his tech writer and he has a newsletter like you know hundreds of thousands of subscribers and he writes about this um i mean he's been writing for years about this theory of aggregation or aggregation theory and this theory states that like basically businesses on the internet tends toward aggregation because of network effects and because of just the potential for economies of scale and like low marginal cost uh scale and you know this is of course like it's counter to the to the prevailing narratives and crypto that we need to have everything decentralized but what we see happening is that things end up even in crypto sort of being centralized and like finance is one

example but it's not the only example do you think that there's a risk that crypto and this this idea of full decentralization just isn't attainable if things begin to scale at a global level i mean if there are a billion users on ethereum or like you know three billion people using crypto is it even reasonable to think that um there can be scalable systems that are fully decentralized that have that many people on them yeah it's a good question i mean uh bitcoin 2009 am 2014 it's already seven years old if you look at the research people are

saying oh but look polka dot or i don't know like a new shane um they are faster and they are much they are well we're more designed but i mean people to sometimes tend to forget that those actually pcm technology is very old meaning that obviously back then there was a revolution but now moving and migrating an entire market cap of i don't even know like maybe 250 billion it's very difficult into this kind of system of proof of stake fully fully decentralized mechanism that is not that is not going into into into into um from for mining and miners noise type i'm not sure if it's actually a risk because if we really believe in this and that we're

building the forced revolution which is the system where it's fully decentralized i think people will have no the thing is like now compared to the i mean the previous revolution i call it like sharing economy and the one before is internet but now actually it's different because before in order to do something you have to ask regulation or ask companies that if you could build using the api build using the sdk or build a connect to facebook login or stuff you have to ask questions where here if people don't start using decentralization they will be isolated inside their own market you don't want this so now it's not like for business reason that they are

um i mean it's not like they're not forced to do it i mean forced to do it like from someone on the top from regulation because regulation doesn't want this before now it's actually false from the bottom if you don't actually integrate and and then and then go decentralized you will be not up you will not be able to have access to those uh huge market we're not talking about usually we say oh as a new company traditional company i want to go to the american market because we're talking to 400 million users and the american users they like to spend money and it's it's very fast and then we're going to go to asia china is the other place because they go fast and spending money well here it's blockchain if you don't actually get involved in blockchain and

decentralization then you will lose three billions of people that can they can use your product and make money and you can capture fees so i think we are aiming for decentralization but right now the right move for this business if you're running a business it's what people are doing they actually centralized the the thing capture of liquidity very quick capture a lot of users very quick and then slowly but surely will decentralize and then buy what by forking and cloning project that already super successful on eastern i i think i agree with part of that but at the same time i wonder to what extent like there are forces that there are so like external forces that

could you know shape the way or like shape the direction in which the space goes so like one of those forces is i guess like forces that are just inherent to the way technology works so like this aggregation theory thing i think like yeah if that is correct that's one force and then the other is regulation so for example like you're well aware that there is the mika proposal in europe and that you know in his current writing it might just put the us immediately in the driver's seat because like u.s banks are able to issue stable coins and european banks aren't and so i i wonder to what extent there's just so many other i don't want to sound pessimistic here but i do like recently i've had some some sort of existential questions about

like crypto and whether you know it is really in the hands of those that are building you know the ethereum chain for example like those working on the on that research and like those really driving the idea the ideologies if it's really in their hands about what actually happens and how yeah space actually like evolves into you know whatever it is going to evolve in yeah it's a good point man but that's exactly that's actually what you just said it's a perfect recap of the situation compared to all the previous revolution it's always companies going against people where right now we're actually saying companies trying to be the people but then nation states trying to regulate what people as a company doing

so i think one of the biggest as european or like i see like three different major forces obviously like u.s europe and asia as soon as one of them is being able to worldwide print or tokenize their national currency the race will be for those defined products of blockchain to actually start using them and obviously u.s is already leading this because they already have like gemini uh coming with the two to the twins um they are like uh coinbase and all these different things but if you actually look that's the that's a good point is okay it's decentralized but what is actually truly decentralized because at any point of time it's already already happened fully

decentralization is normally a hack happen the person gets the money and normally the amount the people that if you are fully controlled which is basically the vision of blockchain you have fully control of your assets and you can do whatever you want i'm not actually pausing the question is it bad hack exploit or arbitrage but normally the person should be able to use the money as you want right now what we're seeing is like big company like usdt they say okay the next day oh the ceo i think is a cto always go on twitter and say oh i'm very glad people i post the money from these hikers because these hikers this hiker stole the money from this very legitimate company i'm like yeah okay that's good because

maybe this is an exploit this is a hacking but at the same time it's against the vision of decentralization because normally you have free control of your assets so yeah big comp and that's the reason why i think curve that finance probably on the biggest and major project in defy if you actually look at if you if you like the game risk risk you play nation and your nation against nations and here if you believe that the crypto will be uh is part of revolution this forced revolution then every country in the world major countries in the world would like to have their nation their uh national currency tokenized and then as soon what will happen is like they will want people to swap between different uh different uh

stable coins and what happen is uh right now or the best place that you can apparently they're saying like 50 or 60 that's probably something i heard but maybe it's all [ __ ] uh 50 or 60 of the entire market of crypto will be stable coins because the underlying asset of value worldwide is currencies the fx market is doing six trillion volume a day so the goal of project like crypto finance which is like focus on stable coins and is basically see that as an effects market even if curved capture one percent of two percent of what's the future of of uh fx it is then it will be like uh

making billions of volume per day well my point is right now the world competition and centralization of power is unstable coin people are chasing governments and national state to print the national currency not just because it's cool it's because when you can print money and distribute your money you are in control of the world yeah no i mean i i definitely agree with you i mean i've always i've been a believer that like stable coins are going to be what takes over most of crypto uh because i think that's what most average people want to use and they want to use d5 but they probably want to use it with their like stable units of asset not with like crypto like bitcoin or ethereum necessarily so i mean we mentioned uh the the you

know regulations and i you know you you briefly mentioned this like arbitrage stuff um do you think like you know so like kind of to move into like some of some of the defy topics we wanted to cover you know one of the most common attacks that's been happening within the d5 ecosystem it feels like nowadays it feels like it's happening on like a weekly basis is usually these sort of uh price arbitrage attacks where people will use flash loans um which you know we can talk about as well but um you know to do like some sort of oracle manipulation attacks as like a lot of things are depending on these on-chain exchanges as an oracle and then they're like you know using these x these

things to exploit and like take steal value from the system things that are relying on maybe you know maybe they shouldn't be relying on these poor oracles in the first place but you know in traditional finance these sort of attacks are like you know illegal and they'd be considered like in the realm of market manipulation um do you think that like this the how do you think this crypto ecosystem will have to evolve to you know clearly this is not something that's acceptable in the long term and so how do you think the crypto ecosystem will have to grow to evolve here yeah so yeah i think there's it's got a lot of discussion and a lot of

people saying that what's happening in defy and and flash loans uh it tends i mean tend to be not acceptable in the sense that people um um are getting getting hacked or they lose money and whatever but i think like let's get back to uh for a sec to flashlights i mean flash loans are nothing new if you compare to traditional market in traditional market they're not called flashlight but they call wales like big fancy big vc rental business capital hedge fund and especially banks or insurance that have the capacity to go on the market

and to take massive position like the thing that we saw in in gapstone you know gamestop people um then um buying a long position and then all the reddit users going there and then trying to short the uh the big vc in in new york and in wall street the thing is like those be those behaviors already exist in traditional finance what is actually pretty mine mind-blowing in decentralized finance is those different behaviors can be triggered by people that have not a single penny in their pockets so meaning that it's like saying traditional finance like saying okay wait people can actually go big on the market

so we need to stop banks insurance uh venture business capital and hedge fund to actually uh interact with finance no it's not possible the reason and the only reason why destructoid finance like traditional finance is this is like in the 90s and 2000 you had people taking arbitrage people don't actually understand that if you're doing arbitrage if you're making money with flash loan if you're making money with liquidation this is the only reason why such a system exists is because you have actors that make sure that if you're taking an under under collateralized law i'm not like criticizing flash loans i think flash loans are like really great i think like flashlights get this like weird rap like like i you know i i was actually one of the first people i know i wrote a blog post

about flash loans back in like 2017 uh i i always been a big fan of flash flashlights i'm talking about more about like the different uses of flash loans so i think there are some very good uses of of like how people are using flashlights so you know when you have more efficient liquidations more uh like better arbitrage my question is more about like i don't even want to focus on the flash loan part you know the flash loan is it's a tool that people are using but you're right even if there's no flash loans whales could still be doing this but what i'm talking about is like this level of like market manipulation that happens and oracle manipulation this would be illegal in like traditional finance or like at least you

know the goal is that we should try to like prevent this kind of behaviors from happening and so at least in traditional finance we do have this tool of regulation how well the regulators do their job at preventing this in traditional finance you know we can debate about that but like in deep eye how do we build you know we don't we can't rely on regulation to come save us here or maybe we can i don't know but like if not how do we create a safe ecosystem where like the deep the protocols that we're depending on are resilient against these sort of manipulation attacks i completely agree with you the difference is dissatoise finance compared to traditional finance

is decentralized i mean that's part of the name so my point is if you compare what's happening in this entire finance you're saying oh this will be not acceptable and will be punished in traditional finance well the reason why we have them interested in in decentralized finance is because the system that are being built and not correctly built that's it and that's that's the reason why flash loans or any other way of manipulating overcoats and all the stuff if they are possible it means that the protocol needs to change because if you're building something that can be not exploited but can be armed by a huge liquidity then it means that your system that you've built is bad because

it's a trustless mechanism anyone can enter anyone can exit so if you're not building a system that is mathematically bulletproof mathematically bulletproof but also a crypto economics like game theory then it means that your system shouldn't be in tradition and defined but actually it should be in traditional finance if you just copy traditional finance and bring them into this authorized finance without actually thinking outside the box then you get exploited and you get hacked but i think like most of them in this entire finance whatever we covered in wrecked i don't think people agree with me but i think most of them are arbitrage they're not exploits they just they build the system and people use the system they build a system for people to arms

and make money but those people were smarter and they actually make bigger money by the end of the day they just arbitraged i mean not all of them but most of them yes so so right okay so so your take here is that like these systems themselves are like poorly designed and like performing these like arbitrages and like this is how we like the system will be forced to evolve in order to design better and better more resilient systems essentially yeah exactly the reason why your money is safe at the bank it's not because the bank is saying the money is safe it's because you add robbers trying to steal into the bank you know i mean don't trust verify it's the same in traditional finance if the system is fully secured

you need to they need to show you that this system was trying to get a hack by millions of people and then you can say it's secret it's not secured by design it's secured by being in practice on chain and being like the reason why bitcoin is secure is because if it wasn't secure bitcoin is like a trillion market cap then people were just like it's bitcoin right now it's the biggest holy grail of money uh part like the biggest bounty on earth is bitcoin and if someone tells you it's not secure i'm like okay cool go there and hack it and take the money the reason why it's secure is because the money is not being hacked it's the same in defined the reason why defy is solid and if you tell defies mostly the traditional finance

then your protocol shouldn't be easily manipulated by providing liquidity in such a way or another but obviously it's more complicated to defend but if we actually i'm sure like in the future in the next couple years it would be impossible to to manipulate those different networks internally to the project because it would be a black box but then the next level will be cross chains because what will happen actually we have like trillions and trillions of years of dollars and then getting like arbitrage bridges power chain like all these different things wow this is pretty fascinating so you know you mentioned that you're also one of the uh

you know team members of the uh finance and so how do you see like curve like you know helping push this the ecosystem towards building those these more resilient uh d5 protocols well right now if you're looking for huge liquidity like actually zero employment loss and zero sleep edge if you're good enough then you can use such a system um curve provide you a place for being able to swap huge amount of liquidity that something that was never able to do in traditional finance for example like one of the feature that curve made is you can swap 45 40

25 million us dollars depend on debt of statistics but you can swap huge amount of money from east to btc and then we use some virtual like uh the project scientix to basically allow this swap and then use you have a settlement so during this settlement in order to wait then we issue an nft that will present your settlement and as soon as the settlement um goes unchained then you can you can claim your funds but my point i think that was before this tool and after this tool in define the reason for that is like if you do start if you want to do such a um such a thing in traditional finance you will need to sign

documents you will need to wait like couple months and sign what we call in uh mc multicollateral party mcp and this will take would take long will take a lot of money you will take lawyers you will take like middleman well here you can do that in just a couple of minutes and zero sleep edge i mean you just pay a fee so what my point is like curve becoming like the underlying protocol on ethereum but also like cross chains soon and working integrating in multiple different chains but it's a little underlying protocol if you want to do for example like imagine users and con based or user on binance so like stuff like that i don't see those guys not

implementing curve as the underlying protocol and maybe charge a little fee because right now it's the best protocol if you want to do a swap and huge volume like solid technology and entirely focus on security it can be shocking for people to look at the ui but that's a different discussion yeah you were talking earlier about how simple the ui was and i i actually look at the ui i'm like and i see what they're doing here i know the aesthetic they're looking for but i don't find it's very simple yeah we're working on the ui v2 but yeah i can i can understand that might be a little bit too much for some users yeah so i'm curious you mentioned nfts here if you think nfts will

play i mean like a lot of the attention of nfts has been around collectibles and like you know you talked about so rare earlier and all these different uh collectibles projects how how much do you think nxts will play a role in in tokenizing like debt instruments and contracts and things like this you think that this that this trend that you're that we're seeing here on curb will continue to grow yeah i think that the the biggest value in nfts are not i mean gaming like verticals of like gaming pawn and all these things are huge vertical but i think like if you really do the nft market is actually into a finance so if you do like

uh tokenize that um real estate um like all those different things i think this is where the nfts can actually you can tokenize the contract and then send the contract to someone you can trace the contract you can also like like for people in the in a supply chain or like items like this is huge i think the real value in nft are in in this kind of services right now um the democratization of those nfts happens on the on the on the gaming side and collectible and arts they are good i mean art the art market is a trend market cap worldwide but i've seen traditional finance uh it's trillions and trillions so um yeah nft market would be pretty huge and if we if you look at the curve scientix

swap and you understand the mechanism of using this nft that uh represent a time between the settlement happen on shane and you're able to redeem it and or you can actually send it then it's it's a it's a complete game changer i feel like last year with flashlight people started using flash on a little bit and then it became super big and people start talking about it well actually i think what kirk did with this mechanism of the swamp being able to swap millions even even bigger centralized exchange like bitmex or binance or ftx they cannot do that you cannot swap the 45 million us dollars on the platform without actually getting a huge sleep edge or creating a huge tank on the market that's not possible

well except maybe kraken but kraken does actually [ __ ] up the entire market in one shot so you guys had on wrecked you had a post recently talking about the creation of decentralized monopolies within the space and like so you know there's been this string of you know mergers and acquisitions between dpi protocols and it's a little bit unclear what these even mean but do you think that like there is this growing amount of centralization of soft power within the space especially as like you know we see this rise of like governance tokens but it seems that oftentimes these governance tokens have very little

actual governing power and like instead we see a lot of the soft power in the space like accrue to like some of the developers and development teams like andre and stuff where like they they are somewhat unaccountable to the communities themselves do you see this becoming a risk within the ecosystem over time i think this is one of the bigger bigger subjects in blockchain is as you mentioned before it's like are we going into this kind of like duplicate i mean what we're building for example in rect we have this subject called opium diaries and we try to explain what we're building or like

try to understand the future are we building a better future are we building a better society or just like replacing the current elite current people on the top by ourself and i think this is exactly what's happening whatever mistake we're made in traditional finance we replicate the exact same thing in this authorized finance but then we try to make them cool all on the public attention so my point is like if you look at history 80s 90s 2000 with massive fights google microsoft microsoft buying or stealing some patents apple like buying some company and turning into apple stealing some patents and all stuff like all the same

there was no open source but there was like legal fights well right now is like i really like the space because people pretend to build a future and a better world for people but actually on the ground they're making merging acquisitions they're attacking people they go really bad on low being on some different different strategy so where we are now it's not like peace it's a complete wall it's like people are trying to get the biggest shares of the markets and all the different tactics and all the different moves are being played right now legally or on chain or acquisitions and also like some stuff

going on like very very sneaky move like for example a network gets hacked and then suddenly gets acquired or merged and then all those different things you know some stuff is happening in the background and then the only vision here is to be one of the biggest company in the world as a conglomerate so you will soon see in defy company like alphabet facebook apple you will see like five or six different major companies that are not protocol level but are companies that build across all the different protocols either financially or outside finance but that's how that's 100 sure it's already happening and that's what we have all the it's not it's well known that we talk about

defied drama but when you see someone going online and say oh i go off for five for five days or three days because i don't have much enough it's because stuff is happening in the background but yeah we have i think like in this space we have like three different people they play on glory so a lot of them wants glory over money and over security and you have this triangle you know it's blockchain transparency security and then speed well here's like glory money and uh security and this is already happening if you look very at the space and you try to understand it's what we actually try it's already happening yeah we have massive actors that are trying to build conglomerates right now a couple weeks ago after the launch of

uh saddle which is like a little bit of a clone of curve like you know they they didn't fork the contracts but they forked a lot of the ideas of curve and you know but focus more for bitcoin we saw that curve actually had a proposal to like remove all the incentives for tbtc which is like actually sort of like an unrelated product kind of built by the same company that was building saddle but like you know sort of as like a punishment for building saddle almost and like do you think this would also you know do not think this also classifies as like some sort of like anti-competitive behavior and well i mean first you got two things inside i don't think they're correct first you said

saddle is not a copy but just change the card no it's not true style is entire copy of curve but instead of being in viper it's in solidity and also apparently they didn't understand the card so they duplicate curve code but couldn't actually make it i mean didn't fix some bad performance that you could have in in in curve if i can say that and then and then secondly the other point was uh copyright and then you said yeah the proposal i don't see i've seen any proposal that can stop because it seems like it was initiated by the ceo by the founder by matt by tbtc but we did not incur we actually didn't go against and stopping incentivizing the pool we didn't do that

i mean that's not part of the curve i think we like everyone i mean it's a fair play if you if you take the code but modify and make it better or something then we'll be okay cool that's that's interesting but no no so there was no proposal to stop incentivizing uh tbtc pool and also the card is also like a curve card but modified in solidity and certainly in inside this concept of anti-competitions i mean that's interesting i think that's what that's what exactly we're building in entirety five if you think about it people are focused on money but i've wrote it before and also it's in the light paper i think the most interesting and interesting bit in this space and that's what actually people want to have access

to it's not money it's governance because governance control money governance is power and exactly what's happening in the entire ecosystem for example like whatever we pushed in stick stake down the the fact that you can delegate curve token that's just to acquire power of care then you can actually plan in for the the good health of care for example but what you want to do in this space is once you acquire governance because when you have governance you can interact and you can place your your ships on the table you know what i mean so what we're planning here we're playing 4d chess 100 so if someone's saying on the ecosystem on twitter oh this is bad what's happening here no no no no no that's actually just someone lying

because the entire game is actually a 40 chest even like more than dimension than the 40 chest and everyone that is playing i understand the rules and whatever happened in public happen definitely on the ground and also my point like anti-competitive thing yeah 100 that's what people do but it's not the goal of curve because curve curve is underlying underlying protocol so curve will accept anyone to build on curve and will push for anyone to build on curve that's that's the thing but then on the top of it people that trying to acquire governance and trying to build conglomerates yeah obviously they're trying to kill competition whatever is the cost hundred percent i very much agree with this idea that crypto actually like creates new forms of power and uh

you know i think it's dimitri gophenos came into this podcast and we talked about this a little bit and he's been quite vocal on twitter about this and what does the world look like when there's a thousand new billionaires and when those billionaires start you know having an enormous amount of power over over like this defy ecosystem and especially if that d5 ecosystem starts replacing traditional finance we want to be sure that like that's what we want as a society i think that this meme that crypto is like helping the unbanked and creating better opportunities for everyone i mean it does you do start on an equal playing field so i think anyone can go out and create curve or or saddle and or any kind of d5 protocol and enormous amounts of power around some liquidity in that protocol

but the time for that to happen is like getting shorter because those actors are starting to really establish their their dominance over the market and it's going to be very hard to you know to like dislodge them much like it's very hard to compete with google or facebook or any other company exactly and then you're right here it's like but what is very dangerous for defy is instead of asking donations or google or facebook to answer questions here what we were building in defy is just a single person that will have as much as power than an entire company such as google or facebook or whatever of course like you can say that the protocol is being decentralized and talking orders but

most of those people with massive stake in those different protocols will be acting as if they were in traditional finance or google or facebook or something like that and it's already happening now if you want to pass some vote in some protocols you need to talk to those persons you need to say okay please can you do that okay i can do that but in a change i want you to do that you know it's already happening so lobby low being conditioned as finance is controlling the centralized finance whatever we're trying to say on the public saying okay it gave opportunity for anyone to get involved it's transparent like anyone in philippines in the middle of nowhere in africa can actually participate this is true but saying that is just like the way of increasing our bag and controlling more

power so yeah if someone goes online and say oh crypto is going to change the world in a good way and it's going to be perfect we're building el dorado and all this stuff as this is complete [ __ ] i mean that is a true we're building something that is better but don't say this is perfect world because it's complete [ __ ] whatever we're actually doing right now we're just taking market cap from traditional finance for big entities to get it in in our pocket on us on the other side that's exactly what's happening we're building citadels you know that this very first about this guy saying the reason why rekt was started as an underground kind of dark style thing is every year i always read two one or two times

this article unveiled which i think is beauty because i want to force myself to remind me what i'm actually getting getting into this article is i'm from the future and i'm here to tell you that what you're building is bad and then it explains all those people getting involved in bitcoin or defy are crying a lot of bitcoin and building those citadels so if you don't have bitcoin you can enter you cannot enter the citadel you cannot access to some services and it's already happening right now but i don't want to be pessimistic i mean i think d5 is fantastic you should all join i'd like to ask you what you think the role of validators play in this in this game of 40 chess and uh specifically i mean what do you think is the

risk around validators as a service such as like bison trails and other companies like that effectively controlling not the staking assets themselves but the infrastructure on which those staking assets are being staked and you know what are the risks of the majority of staking being captured by actors such as this you have a good example of loom you know loom got was like 60 or 70 percent at some point controlled by binance and it completely died i mean the reason why this happens because violence doesn't give a [ __ ] about the restraint was actually getting money from them and i mean this is an example of like most of us taking out the service value

they don't actually support the vision of destructionization it's just there as a business model and the reality is like um a quick cash you know like you make quick you make cash right now and then you can generally do another opportunity so it doesn't matter if actually concentration of power goes unchained from those validators as long as they're making money it's exactly what's happening and then also a lot of big violators they have a voting time so don't believe that someone that has 10 or 15 percent of voting power in such network doesn't actually get requests from the outside every single day you get requests from the outside from people saying i mean for example like myself i'm pretty early in maker i have like some voting power and maker and then whatever people are trying to

make some bottom maker they always get back to me and say julian do you mind like doing this and then i can give you this it's always happening and but imagine if you're doing this a higher level like violator i mean i'm telling things that people don't probably don't want to to say but uh this is actually happening the entire defy is not corrupted but is some believable stuff happening on the ground and lobby governance money being played big actors asking people to do such things because if they don't do it then they either not going to integrate their service are they going to not going to help or they're going to tell people in the auditing firms that please don't audit this project because they don't want to do that so everything is being played but the thing is like actually it's even

bigger than traditional finance so whatever you see in traditional finance as bad actors i think we get all of them in in this prize in in trying to in decentralized finance but even bigger because everyone can actually jump in and do whatever they want so it's interesting i mean also also the fact that in striking as a service we all know each other i mean i know you guys i know i know sunny i know everyone we all do secondary series so every time there's a new network they want to get some stakeholder service we create a telegram group and we get all together and retire we talk this is already happening there's a few different videos in the world that will provide good services and you want them on board that's it that's how it is and then we charge a commission and we

charge money and we make money that's it perhaps one more question which is like slightly related to this it's a little bit off topic but i i since i have you know two people that run validators uh here on in front of me i'd like to ask both of you perhaps where do you think like staking as a service provider so i'm thinking like sikka chorus one like these types of companies that are effectively acting as delegators and validators of the service like the bison trails etc do you see one merging into the other or do you think that they'll continue to have like separate roles in the space moving forward like do you think staking as a service providers will become validated as a service or you know is it the other way around or do they like continue to live separately

for eternity you don't didn't trail of beats got acquired by coinbase yes they did oh yeah not surprising yeah i mean i think the last thing they they have left for staking at the service is their reputations they're getting uh delegation from businesses or from big vc or hedge fund and those big vst and hedge funds i mean they won't they won't ask questions i mean travel bits is really like a business for providing the service making a lot of money on the other side staking as a service that we we strapped in 2017 maybe it doesn't yeah we were like back then sunny like getting like that was pretty new new

market i was like just like two or three different actors i remember like i was like searchers state capital sunny with on the on the customer side a few of them i think for our side we have a reputation to to maintain i would say but yeah i've seen a lot of violators moving into money grab and and cash like not having like any questions regardless the if the the chain they were getting involved into was actually uh legit or providing a utility as long as you get a percentage of the of the market cap and you get commission and you're making money then those guys they will just provide services so it's not about most of those people and not about the vision it's just about

i mean you have to we have to understand that those providing staking as a service or any any services in device costs money most of them we're running aws servers google and stuff so when you have a team and you have a legal entity you need to pay then you just go for the money and you pay the team and then that's it yeah i mean i tend to agree i mean i think that you know at least for sikar our i mean our goal has always been to focus more on like few networks that we can be like active governance participants in and you know i think there are entities whose goal is to focus on just like scaling up and like being just running at everything possible but that's i i think there'll be niches for both of them i mean

like julian mentioned i think that the uh the ones who do want to scale up to everything possible will probably be the ones that make more money on that but you know i i feel for us at least you know making money off the validator was never really the goal i mean we that's if it was we'd be running on way more networks than we are right now so yeah i think i think it just depends on yeah but i mean yourself yourself sonny it's a it's interesting how you are you start it it's like you really want against the dividers but one for the users meaning that you started sticking the service at zero percent commission fee acquired a lot of users got up to millions of years to asset on the management and then turn into fees mechanism

which which is interesting because was a completely different business model compared to the other dividers and then you got the entire inviters saying this is not fair you were saying and you were saying oh but i'm doing this for the experiment of governance testing some new governance model and and i think it won't success as a success i mean in in the past three years the entire ecosystem completely changed it's like a day in defi is like it's it's a year in traditional ma and traditional finance but yeah we've seen a lot of different staking as a service dying because they were not actually focused on making money and then the ones that were focused on making money now they are super powerful so it's like it's always the same you know like people actually i mean we've seen a lot of people that

were there just for the vision and they were like no no i don't mind i just provide the violator but then they end up like getting a lot of large cost in in in those aws and those cloud services that they have to stop and then we don't see them anymore yeah that makes sense to bring it back to you know some of the last couple of defy stuff we wanted to talk about one of the things that like with rect is about like you know how the average user is not basically constantly being adversely selected against um and you know i feel like you guys have actually done a good job of like creating a lot of like meme around this with like the whole aping in and like do you think do you think rect has been do you know helping

foster a culture of dj deepai or do you think it's meant or it's been like doing a lot to like help protect the average users yeah i think it's on both sides it's uh i'm not sure if you've seen the i think how we start we started wrecked was by this sticker the the death i mean the culture of rape is really fitting this kind of like dejan hacking and it's black and white on the ground we sent if someone gets wrecked really bad like suffering on the ground suffocating then we send these very bad stickers and there is this vibe about this this movement of like underground uh hikers and all this stuff but i think

it's on the other side if you really spend time on regs read all direct information then you will have a good understanding of whatever is happening and define and also a good way to defend or to protect yourself against different attacks or different exploits that are possible either they probably call exploits flash loans we really deeply go inside the protocol and explain those different interactions we spend hours and hours every time there is something happening we investigate we are usually the first one to deliver the news but not deliver something because people expect us to deliver because we actually 100 sure that the information we provide to the users

is correct it's pertinent and is very well well researched and well explained that's what we do i'm also working in like some like a little book for wrecked hackers like meaning like how to how to basically as a normal user i mean a little bit experienced with coding how you can actually replicate all those different acts how you can plug and play those different exploits and all this stuff meaning that if you provide this the space will be more secured how do you educate users like you know you know we talked about like mostly about like the technical and mechanism design exploits but what about like a lot of these like social exploits and the rug pulls and all these things how do we

like you know make sure the average users are educated uh in how to make good decisions on you know as much as we want to think this is trustless and everything it seems that there seems to be a lot of trust required to interact with most of these systems so how do we educate people to know who to trust and how to make those decisions the problem i don't think is possible i mean i don't want to say that i'm saying like it's difficult to tell people please don't get involved in this network if this or this project if this project is providing 300 apy or something i mean and trustedly speaking people and humans

are just like will do everything possible and we just believe in some stuff that is making money so explaining them that if whatever you're doing is bad then they will not understand and the thing is more about the incentives we need to provide tools or analytics and metrics and different systems that can tell them this is red flag please don't invest please don't participate please don't ape but the problem is like this hating vibe or on twitter people saying oh i put hundred bucks in this very famous builder and then i got a million u.s dollars and then people with their shares so then the next time as soon as there's

new network like that people will just try to change they will invest as well so yeah that i don't think i was having like an argument with someone from uh regulation four days ago and they were saying that defy is more dangerous than traditional finance i don't think so i think it's actually safer but the problem is because it's more accessible to people anyone in the world can jump very quick just by your mobile wallet and put the money so we talk in a range of people getting access to defy is actually bigger i mean not bigger but faster and people without actually any understanding because not i mean digging into the information before i actually subject to get by direct by by those different protocols i think you need to follow the people behind the

project you need to ask questions on the telegram and you need to i mean on the on the different channels and also like listen to uh to you guys like you guys are more like uh providing good good example of education in this space that have been there for a reasonable amount of time so i think if people want to join a project they first need to look at ap center other people that are providing educational courses that's seeing that if those guys actually got interviewed on those different major channels yeah so don't trust verify and don't try to hide because you're saying that you can make and and also i mean i feel like they will advocate here but i think if people get backed by aping i think they deserve it to be honest so what is uh

your dj score by the way you know did you see the atomic blue detent scores what is yours man i'm i'm uh yeah i'm the i don't i don't know i mean can you actually see him change information i don't want to dock myself but i'm pretty pretty good there on the agent's school i mean i would say top 10 but uh yeah pretty good so you're obviously clearly a master djen and you know i think you know you're working on all these different projects and you know there's ways to get exposure to like you know all the cool work you're doing on all of them you know you can there's the stake dow token there's the curve token uh you know i've heard that there's a wrecked dow coming eventually what is this julian token you know is

this going to be some basket of all things julian yeah that's exactly i mean i think like i mean i'm um i'm an investor in the world the social talking system and i feel like i'm not i don't have instagram i don't have facebook i don't have all these different tools but i i do believe that i mean most of the people worldwide 99 percent of the entire people worldwide they use those systems and the retail is big fan of the system so i believe that social tokens will be a major uh ma will take a major market cap in in a near future in crypto so then i invest and then i create this um from this platform so i don't like people saying i create a target i mean i just click on the button

and then talking because you know it's just like it's like it's funny but and then i was like okay i need to find i need to find utility behind this token and that's why i actually start distributing like i said that was funny but i actually airdropped more than 100 ledgers and by giving away a ledger to people that had dreamt organ then i got [ __ ] by ledger company by the exploits i think that was pretty funny but uh my entire flat got made by some guys random guys and all this stuff i mean that was like pretty uh that was a pretty bad experience but my point then i started doing this offering free class in viper and auditing and exploits so people that had at least hundreds

on token could have access with me or an hr and i will go deeply into the code like how to start web3 project run like auditing on the code like basically driving those users into how to build a web3 project and so i did also classes on a go rust javascript and also like a little bit of c plus plus so i really want him to class system but it takes time so i was doing it between two and three and two p.m and 3 p.m and then i was like wait wait a second how can i basically whatever i'm building give a chance to the people that have access to this policy bait so instead down i distribute i think there's probably like um eight million u.s dollars uh

from the stake down same in uh other projects so if wrecked down is going live if blackpool is going live if state capital is a because state capital is actually turning and not turning it's actually operational uh as a quant quantitative agent uh quantitative firm so like trading market maker liquidation arbitrage and then like really intense into mathematics in the flow of developers think about state capital as 0.000 or whatever alameda sbf is doing because this guy is too big uh right now but um yeah so that's it so this is what i do so what if i'm every project i'm starting i will give to those guys

free um free shares or free governance shares of those projects then i was thinking about how can i give one percent of all my investments inside this pocket of people that i've been either trusting me or following me i mean not following but like investing in this token but i think for legal reasons is probably not possible right now but yeah this is stuff that i'm looking for like rewards also like uh liquidations so for example like what happened two days ago yesterday like uh some those kind of like very bear market things when i make a lot of a lot of i call them rewards on liquidations then i will distribute a portion to those people

cool well that's really been really awesome um so what is the best place for people to you know follow you and all these projects that you're working on um on twitter uh it's my at b and what it is basically my my name reversed so b is for bootloo and then julian so it's b julian opposite um yeah you can text me on twitter on telegram yeah i'm embarrassed to admit it took me like at least a year to realize that that that your handle was just your name backwards just your name backwards you're the one you're the one behind like in the main uh photocall and you cannot like solve this little puzzle

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