Josh Williams: Opportunities for Crypto in Gaming

Transcript

[Music] thank you [Music] next up we're going to jump straight into the next session which is going to be a fireside chat with Josh Williams who's the CEO and co-founder of forte which is a new blockchain gaming platform that aims to help align developers and players and how they earn economically um and interviewing Jeff is going to be or Josh is going to be Jeff tunnel who is the founder of monster ideas and a number of other companies that he founded earlier where he designed

directed produced um hundreds of games so Jeff and Josh come on up all right so in my long career as a game and game technology creator I've seen lots of new platforms and new technologies come along that have like totally changed the way we had to make games probably the biggest one of those well obviously the biggest one was the Advent of the internet and it took our industry you know 10 years to to figure it out and I think we're kind of still figuring it out but that was when it really started to happen and one of the games that I created is called tribes and it was a first-person team-based shooter

kind of one of the first ones that really Incorporated a lot of what was going on in the internet and it was kind of controversial for us inside the company at the time because it was a big project when we got to the end and we didn't have time to put a single player into it and so we launched it as multiplayer only and which seemed it was really that was really risky at the time but it ended up that it did work now it just seems really obvious that everybody releases a lot of multiplayer only games and they're all internet connected and I think in the future it's going to be kind of similar for blockchain it's going to really cause some big disruption in games and I think Josh is going to tell us some what

blockchain will be able to unleash for us in games yeah um I think exactly as you said Jeff um it's a good analogy um blockchain will disrupt and change gaming and I think a very similar way to the internet it might it might be because even even bigger changes Because the Internet helped uh interconnect players um and tribes was really an example of a a great Innovative game designer you know you who embraced the bleeding edge technology early on to create a game that was really revolutionary and I played tribes a lot when I was a kid blockchain will be similar and maybe bigger because it's not just interconnecting people but

changing potentially the business model of games and creating uh the potential for a lot uh better game economies that align developers and players and and work much better for both of them and it can really do that in in four ways um so the first way is by leveraging blockchain technology games can allow players to really own the Assets in their games today players and games spend about 150 billion dollars a year purchasing games and digital Goods in games and the majority of that Revenue actually is is purchasing Goods inside of games but players don't own any of them so that's the first one when you introduce ownership it could really change the way that the games are are

made and played and how the economies work the second one is blockchains enable you to have the provenance of every item in every asset in the game so that means you know you can know the history of every item in a game the third is games can create really rich marketplaces uh or blockchain can create really rich marketplaces inside of games so when players own these assets and you can determine whether or not an asset is real you know it's history in provenance you can create Rich marketplaces uh around those items and the fourth is because blockchains can incorporate smart contracts code that executes autonomously through the blockchain you can create these rich incentive systems

that reward players and participants in the game in different ways yeah so that that's a really quick overview we're going to delve into it a little bit more let's talk about the ownership a little bit sure a little bit more a little deeper yeah so you know if you think about it the ability for players to really own things inside of games the virtual goods and virtual currencies inside of games it it transforms um the player the purchases that players are making from Pure expenditures where again players are taking over 100 billion dollars a year out of their wallets to purchase these Goods it transforms them from expenditures to assets that the players own and so players could choose to to you know

resell assets uh if they if they own them they could choose to incorporate the assets into another asset that might be in the game and the thing about these assets being stored on blockchains is no one can take the asset away from the player the player truly owns it and they don't have to trust a third party including the game developer themselves that they truly don't really only asset yeah and I think that's probably what most people think about when they think about crypto Technologies or blockchain Technologies and games but it really is important you know I I'll just do like a pretty obvious example here but you know imagine you've played wow for a year and

you take your Rogue up to level 70 and you're tired of playing it and you want to become a warrior um if if that was a blockchain enabled game then you could take that character and either give it to your friends so they can come back and play play the game with you or or you can you can sell it to somebody and maybe get back a little bit of the of the of the money that you've paid in in a subscription for the last year yeah that's exactly right and you know when you play a game and you're really into it you get to really care about the assets you have in the game you care about your characters you sometimes it put a lot of money into those things and so um to see real value and to truly own those things and to be able to do what

you want with them as a player would be you know great as a player and transformative for games as a whole and you know touching on the second point which is really the provenance of the items of the Assets in a game that blockchains enable what that lets you do is is know that when someone is claiming that they have an asset and they have the right to an asset you can verify that that is true you don't have to trust anyone to do that so you can imagine in a real in the real world you know outside of games if someone was trying to sell you a basketball jersey and they said hey this is the jersey that Steph Curry wore at in the final game of the 2015 NBA championships when they won and so it's going to cost a thousand dollars you know you would just

have to trust them that that's true or you know maybe find a third party to trust that has somehow certified that that's the real deal what's cool about games in blockchain is because the assets are digital if they're stored on a blockchain you you don't have to trust anyone when someone says that hey this item maybe it's a it's a sword this is the sword that was used by the first player to ever take down you know the biggest baddest boss in the game you could know that it's you know that collectible unique item and and maybe that it's got some you know special characteristics unlocked because it is that unique that unique item and so blockchain enables that as well yeah and that's actually I mean I might sound kind of trivial at first but but it does kind of it can take an asset and make it

more unique more collectible and that's again kind of an obvious thing but when you start really thinking deeply about this it it it makes it it's pretty important and then you can also kind of start seeing how people could take do things like maybe there's an enterprising person that goes out and and collects this open information from tons and tons of games and puts it all on one website and maybe it's kind of like an appraisal website so that you can go and you can check the value of your you know plus 18 sword in the game yeah and that leads to the third point which is you can create these rich marketplaces in games right so one player is on the assets and they're there for they know they own it and so they therefore ascribe value to them and they can verify without trusting anyone

that the history of the assets and it's authenticity you can start to price items you can start to trade items together and create these rich marketplaces and the rich the richness of the marketplaces can be you know not only enabling trading between players and the transfer of assets and value between players but also a pretty complex economic designs around how that value gets split up and this is where developers can start to benefit as well so that they might take a share of of transactions if you know you had these assets that were owned by you know that that example would be used of a sword that was you know used to take down the biggest boss in the game for the first

time the player that that killed that boss with that sword could always take a share if the if the smart contracts were structured this way of every transaction every trade of that sword subsequently um so you can open up all these new designs that were never possible prior to blockchainer or weren't possible without solely trusting the game developer um themselves yeah and you could also use that that kind of thing for incentives to move your players around to to help them do things that you want them to do and also that they've kind of wanted to do anyway in the game that's right yeah and that's the fourth one it's designing incentive structures in the game so when you have a game that has an Economy based on real asset values that players own you can

have currencies you can have assets in that game you could start to Grant you know as a developer you can write smart contracts that essentially incentivize or reward players through grants of currencies and assets and items when they do things that are helpful for the game and for other players so you could reward players for you know maybe maybe senior players who have experienced a lot of the game you could give them you know currency you could drop into their account currency for um helping new players you know get through a dungeon for the very first time and so you can create these really rich incentive mechanisms in a game in in ways that again just weren't possible previously if you start to incorporate blockchain technology and there's a lot of cool stuff we're working with

developers to do like that um we're working with a battle royale game Battle Royale games are like or like fortnite it kind of incorporates a bunch of the things we just talked about um the skids there are skins in the game right now so those are Cosmetics that you can equip on your character to make them look differently it doesn't affect the gameplay in the in this case but but it personalizes the character for you um this developer that we're working with is is tokenizing the skins in the game so they're putting the skins on the blockchain they're letting players truly own them and they're making the Skins tradable within the game and that creates a new Revenue stream for the developer and it gives the players much more agency much more ownership in the game and you know it makes the game more

fun for the players because now they can benefit from the game not only from it being fun but by doing a good job unlocking new skins and and potentially earring and income from them yeah so I actually have some personal experience that where this would have helped me out tons on one of the games that we created we created a game for Disney and platum called social City it was a it was a social city building game that was on the Facebook platform back back when that was going really big and uh we ended up I was a hit it had two million daily active users my mom played at my sister my wife first time in my career that I had that happen but and so that was an interesting side but but

while while the game was very successful was making a ton of money we were really worried about the business model because it was really just selling digital Goods you know put a new building in put a new Road in put a new sidewalk in and you could see where we were going to hit a wall in that so we were in the back room just like squirrels running as fast as we could go trying to figure out a way to make an economy but back then we just did not have the the tools it would be so wonderful to have these blockchain tools so I'd like maybe talk a little bit about how you build these Community economies for for these games yeah so you know social city was it was a big hit it was one of the

earliest and most successful free-to-play games in the west and it kind of Jeff as you were talking about it it hit the same problem that pretty much every free to play game today runs into uh as it as it grows and free to play games dominate the the games industry today they kind of took the industry from you know 10 to 40 billion dollars uh 20 years ago to you know 150 billion plus dollars a year today um because what they do is you know they allowed players to play a game for free for the first time and that aligned that aligned developers and players a little more than they had been in the past um prior to free to play games players had to purchase the game up front

without really getting a chance to see it so you couldn't get these it was really hard to get these massive audiences uh in games and and players you were asking them to spend 50 or 60 dollars in a game without even knowing what it was really like to play it free to play games you get a little closer to the player a little bit more aligned with the player in that okay you guys you let the player come in for for free which is great that's a benefit for the player but then you have to have to figure out how to monetize it because you didn't monetize it up front and you run into this problem that social City and every other major free to play game runs into which is you constantly have to pump out new content as a developer you have to sell players more and more

of these Goods inside of a game because it's your only way to to make revenue and the Really pernicious thing that happens in in this model even though it's maybe friendlier in some ways the players than your upfront purchases is a small percentage of the audience ends up purchasing anything at all and you know our team and and myself we've seen some of the most successful um free to play games in the world and almost across the board a very small percentage of the audience five percent or less typically makes any purchase whatsoever and very frequently less than one percent of players in these in the top free to play games account for 80 or more of the revenue so what that means is you have a very small percentage of your audience that you end up catering

to and those individual players often spend hundreds of thousands of dollars or or millions of dollars a year even though it sounds crazy uh in these games uh and so you have to produce content that caters to them without somehow without alienating you know the rest of the players that don't do it and it's incredible they don't pay anything and that's an incredibly challenging design problem it's incredibly frustrating for players to feel like you know the people that spend the most might be able to get the coolest stuff in the game or be more powerful in the game and so there's still misalignment even in the free-to-play model what blockchain technology and those four new interaction models economic models new capabilities that blockchain enables for

games can can really do is align players and developers where as a developer you can start to pull a Marketplace the ownership that players have of the items in your game you can start to pull a marketplace around those into the game and create win-wins with players where players now own value they can transact value they can even earn an income from the game and you as a developer can create a bigger economy without just having to create new content all the time if you allow players to trade just as a simple example you can earn a revenue stream from those trades as they occur over time so yeah I mean it might be kind of obvious but one of the first things you would think about doing there if we talk about win-win or Community economies

would be um a lot of the really big games nowadays they have the the gray Market that's out there you know for uh buying World of Warcraft gold or uh you know different skins for different games or or even trading accounts around will get you banned from the game nowadays but now you could you could bring that economy into the game and get rid of a lot of the fraud and things like that that's happening out in the in the real world that's exactly right you know players want to be able to do this as we as we discussed earlier you know when you invest a lot of time or money into your characters or assets or items in a game um you want to be able to trade them sometimes and sometimes you know a game

might be designed to require you to spend a lot of time in order to get the cool stuff that you want and you would love as a player to be able to just go buy that thing sometimes um and so players do this and there's massive kind of side economy outside of that 150 billion dollars a year where players are just trading with each other outside of the games um but it's problematic because the developers don't earn any revenue from those transactions uh and players are always subject to the risk of counter priority fraud um as Jeff said so you know if you're trying to buy a new item from a game from another player in a game and it's not sanctioned by the game itself you got to go to some third-party website enter your credit card information and risk you know someone stealing you know

your your identity or your credit card information um and and maybe not even get the item that you were trying to purchase in the game despite taking that risk when you Leverage The blockchain to enable these Marketplace uh these marketplaces and economies inside of a game you can do that in a secure trustless fashion by leveraging the security of the blockchain itself yeah I mean it's really just hard to express how powerful that that is from the from you know a producer or a designer of a game to have these these tools it's incredibly powerful I would like to you know I'm I'm a convert now so you know I'm barely touching the

ground but but when I first when Josh first started talking to me about these blockchain incorporating blockchain into the games I went on started doing my own research and and uh probably I mean many of you if you if you went out and looked up there you kind of feel like it's kind of scammy out there uh Everything feels a little bit like a pyramid scheme and so I was like I don't know about that but then you know the more you talk about it when you get into it there's just some there in addition to those the four types of things that blockchain can unlock it it that adds up to something way way bigger and I'd like Josh to explain that because this is this is the conversion moment right here

yeah when we talk with developers about these systems they can um incorporate in their games um what what really starts to get compelling about it is you know when you think about it games today as Jeff said in example is like social social City or the top you know most successful games today developers are really just acting as Merchants where they're selling Goods to to players and and that's it when you start to really get deep on what blockchain technology could enable for games you realize there's many more ways for developers to benefit from the games they create and to create games that are better for players as well and so it kind of shifts you from being just a merchant to managing you can think about

it like you know creating in your virtual world that you that you create in your game you're also creating an economy that's more real so it operates just like the real world where we all in the real world you know we we own assets we earn income we conduct Commerce and trade with each other and blockchain can enable that inside of inside the virtual worlds of games as well so um developers got to shift from being just a merchant selling goods to it's almost like you're managing a little country and trying to create the biggest economy that you can for the citizens inside of your country and that unlocks new ways to earn revenue for the developer as well so you know there's there's again four four things you can do

um with that so you can still continue to sell Goods inside of the game just like you do now and those goods don't have to be on the blockchain you can still sell Goods that players don't own so you don't lose anything by you know incorporating blockchain into your into your game but you can also design around player ownership and the marketplaces we've talked about and so you can start to set up the equivalent of a fiscal policy essentially in the parlance of macroeconomics and and governments you can think about what sorts of taxes and fees you want to operate in your economy so players own assets and you can set up the rules for you know how people can trade with each other and you can also set up what what the fees are and what the taxes might be as players start to

trade with each other maybe you as a developer take five percent 10 or 30 percent of every transaction and it's really cool to think about how developers and players get aligned here because a simple-minded developer might think well I'll just make the fee as high as I can I'll charge 70 on on every trade and you could do that but your game probably would be less successful than another game that charges lower fees and is more beneficial to players and encourages more more trading so what you really want to do is just you design your economy this kind of second the second portion of it with the fiscal policy to encourage the creation of the largest possible economy which means players are benefiting more too because

their owners in the economy as well so it really lines up players and developers the Third Way that developers can benefit the third Revenue stream can beep so so again you have a selling sale of goods you have taxes and fees like a fiscal policy the Third Way is you have Assets in these games and players on them and developers can own them too so you could have a reserve of assets and you know the bigger you make your game the better job you do in designing the game and making it fun and designing the economy the more valuable the Assets in your economy could be for both you and for the players and so you as a developer could sell off those assets they're not just virtual Goods they're the assets that are on the blockchain and so that's a third way that developers can benefit in a way they

really couldn't prior to the introduction of blockchain yeah and it's actually really amazing if you if you start calculating this out and think of maybe the total addressable Market here uh I'm gonna sure yeah that's great yeah the the I think you know and before we get to you know thinking about what the total macro picture could look like that the last way developers can make a revenue stream here is is you can set up a monetary policy too just like you would uh in in a country so you can have whatever macro economic design you you think will work best or you kind of experiment and learn will work best inside inside of your game so you can set rates of inflation and you can as we discussed at the

beginning you could reward players for different types of behaviors and that might deflate or that might inflate you know the the economy by producing more currency when you're granting players you know maybe free gold or or free coins for performing certain actions maybe it's logging in every day maybe it's helping other players um but you if even despite that inflation if it helps players contribute to the game or or perform actions that help the economy overall it could grow the total size of the economy and you as a developer can also participate in those rewards you write it in a smart contract so that you can't change the rules willy-nilly but let's say you reward you allow players to create content in your

game uh and then you reward them through these inflationary kind of monetary mechanisms for the content that gets used the most by other players right so it could might be you know a new dungeon that someone creates or a new script of dialogue that an NPC a non-player character in the game says and you might give more rewards to the most popular pieces of content for players you could do the same thing for yourself as a developer you're a great content creator maybe the new content you create also participates in those rewards and if it's popular with players that's worth it because it grew the total size of the economy so if you step back and put all these pieces together other again you're kind of creating a more market economy inside of games instead of a command and

control economy or just a pure Merchant economy which is the case in games today and you know market economies are how the world works today and you know they're the world's economy is much bigger today than it was in the past and the same thing will happen in games and a simple way to understand that might be you know there are games like fortnite today that have hundreds of millions of players that play them every single month uh and those games are wildly successful it's the most successful games that have ever been created or being created today but they do you know a couple billion dollars a year in Revenue at their Peak today which which is massive but if you think about it you know if you had a game that incorporated blockchain technology to create a real market economy for players inside of the game

and you got just a million players that were earning just a minimum livable wage like say thirty thousand dollars a year inside of the game because you created this Rich economy then that game a million players making thirty thousand dollars a year from the game which would have a 30 billion dollar a year economy which would be by far the biggest game that's ever created with only only a million players that are able to to achieve that and that you know on its own would be larger than the entire Global Music Industry uh and it's not difficult to imagine a game that that could do that by incorporating these these mechanisms hey um yes I had a couple quick questions so I wasn't I guess I'm still curious about what's

the material difference between having an SDK for implementing a lot of these economic type of interactions for games versus having it be blockchain related sure and if the issue is trusting the developer I'm actually also curious because I'm I'm just not that sure but how big the trust issue between a game player and game developer actually is and like are there yeah yeah so everybody could hear the question um so the reason to put this on blockchain versus just having an SDK or essential database that you know op tried to

operate the economy is is twofold one it's that it's really hard to secure these things as an individual developer and by leveraging the public blockchains that exist you're inheriting the hundreds of literal hundreds of billions of dollars of security and stored value that exists on these blockchains today instead of having to try to figure out how to secure your database from hackers or exploits you know from from Gamers so that's the first part and it's the simpler part but but it's still important the big thing is really the size of the economy you can create so your players might might trust you as a developer um especially your Ardent fans who have maybe been loyal to you for years but you know a new player who comes into the

game and doesn't know who you are as a developer and doesn't have a lot of you know investment and engagement in your game isn't going to trust you as a developer as much as they will trust you know the broader Marketplace that is represented by these blockchains and the assets that they that they live there if they know hey these assets live on a blockchain and the developer actually can't control it even if they wanted to you're going to have more trust than you would and the important point there is not just trust it's that it creates a larger economy the reason we're able to conduct Commerce today is because you know we have an idea of safety and soundness and in an economy we we think even though we've seen it fail many times you know and there's been

different Financial crises people believe in the dollar enough to conduct you know transactions and so basically the more you can and and the promise of blockchain is that it can be totally trustless and unlock all these new economic activities where people are more Sovereign and can choose who to trust and so that just unlocks more economic activity and it's the same thing in games where if you can maximize trust you maximize the size of the economy and so you want to do everything you can to maximum eyes basically the degree that players can trust the economy itself as opposed to any one actor including the developer two big properties of blockchain are

interoperability and transparency isn't it the case that that actually undermine business models of game developers because actually any other team can instantly like take over the user base quite quite easily because it's all on the blockchain they can simply deploy some other Solutions as like like do the eye airdrop or something like that so so like it starts to be a very competitive market isn't it actually a threat for blockchain games so it's a good question but there's a bit of a misconception there right so um

if you think about it just because it so totally the smart contracts are open they're transparent uh they're interoperable and that's a beneficial thing in that again you know as a player that you know you can transfer value from one game to another right but that's it doesn't mean that you could just copy a game smart contracts or the way it's designed its economy and somehow shift all of its players over because if you're the developer of a of a game and you've published these smart contracts and you've set up the rules for your for your economy and you've created you know a game that attracts a lot of players those players then store value in that economy so you can't just you know copy the code you can't just design a game that's interoperable and does some airdrops and gives some gifts

to players you have to actually convert those players to move to your game first of all and spend their time and energy there and start spending dollars there but also transfer the value that they have stored in the Assets in your game to your network as opposed to just being able to use the items I can remove the skills because users will need to leave because by the movie if you have a

interoperative blockchain where user own disaster then the user can make that choice like that choice [Music] uncomfortable consistency Yeah well yeah so what so since there was a microphone so everybody can hear the question it's if these assets really live on the blockchain and users can do what they like with them couldn't they take the asset from from one game to another or transfer the value of the asset from one game to another in a traditional game like World of Warcraft you can't do that so that kind of creates a protective a wild garden around the game itself and so and so that's true but the flip side of it is

you create like you also limit how much value players ascribe to the game itself and how big that economy can be so if people are willing to spend you know ten dollars on an item in in World of Warcraft and know that it's just an expense they don't own the item and they can't do what they want with it you know well that's great they're willing to spend ten dollars but if they knew that they can own it and they can transfer it to another game if the developer you know displeases them or if there's another game that's even better and can interoperate with the same assets they might pay a lot more just to know that they could resell the good so you create a bigger game economy this way and and it's this what you're describing is the same thing as you know back in the day

there used to be a feudal economy system where there was a lord of the land who controlled everything and everybody else was just a surf and yeah it was great for the lord of the land at the time because they were the boss and they got to set all the rules and the search didn't really own anything but economy's got a lot bigger and people did a lot better when you opened things up and you had a market economy where everybody owns things and everybody has to compete including developers and the best developers in this new world where you incorporate blockchain games will will Embrace this and create games that are really designed to empower players and grow the biggest economy possible and then as a player you won't just simply you know take your asset from one game to another you're gonna go to the game

that has the richest economy and the most players and the and the best gameplay and you know has your friends there so it is a mindset shift and there is a a risk in the sense that boy I'm a developer I'm used to just controlling the whole the whole world but the downside of that is you have a much much smaller potential economy than if you open it up and create a real market economy but also from a from just a pure game design standpoint taking an asset from one game whether you own it Own It or Not uh taking it into another game is uh I think you would actually have to design that into the game you would have to have several games that got together and talked about our designs so that you

can get an asset out of one game and go take it into another game I think the ownership is more that I have it I can give it to my friend I can sell it to somebody or I can auction it off yeah that's right definitely transferring a particular asset from game to game is a lot of people talk about that in terms of interoperability of nfts but it doesn't really make sense for most game designs like the particular you know but you can't move a sword and an RPG over to a racing game you know a racing car game or you can't even within two RPGs The Mechanics Work differently you can't transfer the value right if you can sell the the sword or the or the car then you could move that value and get it back and put it into another game but again

all your all you're thinking there is developers basically or players today just assume that when they make a purchase it's a it's an expense and there is no value it can transfer so there's really not any downside and and you know players will still make pure expenses right um but there's only upside in letting them also you know expand their purchases to things they they own when we're here hi um this is awesome I'm learning a ton because my knowledge of gaming is fairly limited but I'm really curious to see how you all see the notion of identity evolving um it seems like there's almost a dichotomy between kind of the blockchain community that really wants to

prioritize anonymity and privacy versus players who I mean it seems like they're almost incentivized to be known on platforms either for money or I guess platform status yeah yeah it's a good question too um so there's a mix of things that happen with with games today there's definitely a lot of pseudonymous or Anonymous players and games like in some of the games I play like I play we talked about World of Warcraft and many other games um I didn't want anybody in those games to know who I was in in the in the real world so you know I had player aliases and players even will have many characters or many accounts within an individual game sometimes uh and you can do the same thing in a pseudonymous

world with with blockchain um as well one thing that is really interesting to think about which blockchain could unlock is is the idea of sovereign identity and the ability for players to carry an identity from game to game in a way that is uh verifiable trustlessly um and that's something that's not really possible in games today uh but when you when you can do that you could you could say things like hey I was the leader of this the most successful guild in World of Warcraft I mean I I Josh was not actually that person but whoever that was could say that and then maybe that helps them recruit players in another game in the future so you can use blockchain in both ways you can use

it to empower pseudonymous play which is how most games work today or real identity potentially in the future as well which again just unlocks More Design possibilities hi this is Andre um so you said that blockchain allows player to own the asset but isn't it the game the off chain engine of the game determines the properties of the asset so like even if blockchain recommends this sword has a power of 100 game developers can easily override it or even stop recognizing that item just curious what's your comment on it yeah it's a really good question too so there's there's two things one you know if if a developer is just willy-nilly changing the you know the values of uh like the what the items do

like the characteristics and how they behave then they're going to limit the size of their economy because players will trust them you know less so yes the players own the assets but the developer is changing the way that the assets work inside of the game too much so what would happen is players can start to sell those assets off because they're displeased with the developer for making too many changes so that gives the players much more control and ownership than they would have otherwise where the developer could do that anyway but and so and so the best developers that really Embrace these market economies will put more and more of the characteristics that determine uh how the items work and and their provenance and the history of changes uh uh onto the blockchain so that they can't change

it but the second thing is you know there will be a world that the larger if we really started to see examples of games that do that create you know even smaller games that create like 30 billion a year economies in the example that we talked about um then there'll be a huge incentive to figure out how to get more and more of the compute that happens in in a game more and more of the processing that happens in the game to happen trustlessly and that doesn't all need to happen on a blockchain there's a lot of emerging Technologies now for trustless General very verifiable computation um and we're working with some folks in that space that you know over time the bigger these games get the more incentive there will be to create those to accelerate the creation of those Solutions where all the properties of

the way that the items that are stored in the blockchain you know the the value might be stored on the blockchain and the rules that govern the the transactions or the transfer of the items might all be on the blockchain but the compute associated with how the items are used in the game might move more and more to these trustless off-chain systems your physics and your rendering in the game and you know all the things that really just affect the gameplay experience that doesn't really need to be on a blockchain but the way the items are used the way their characteristics work you know will be increasingly trustless the more that these market economies are adopted in games okay thank you guys really appreciate it thank you thanks everybody [Applause] [Music]