Aggregated or Stacked?

Transcript

[Music] all right we are set up for our next panel and for this panel I'd like to bring on four amazing Founders Cy from polygon Renee from cell Alex from dky matter labs and Steven from offchain Labs we're going to be talking about what's actually happening in the world of building on top of different al2s and a bigger ecosystem around how do we offer application specific experiences so to have this conversation please join me in welcoming some deep running Alex and Stephen

so I'll be honest I I think have to figure out live what discussion is going to be about because a lot of things we can talk about and uh hopefully we get into some fights because that's what makes it entertaining uh but I think kind of the the title we came up with this was aggregated or stacked but uh as as I was preing for it um I realized there's probably a better way to think about what's actually happening and um kind of the theme here that we want to cover is that is effectively a lot of blockchains especially l2s want to think about the best experiences for the developers and the the billers on top of those applications and as they think about reaching scale they have different requirements they have different needs they have different resource allocation requirements that they need to worry

about and that opens up a whole new surface area for what you can offer uh we've kind of seen op stack we've seen a bunch of Jesse just talked about l3s on kind of uh there way to think about it we've seen different ways of experiencing different Stacks to do from cdks to to ZK stack but the the overall theme always ends up being well how do we actually connect all these things together and uh and like what is that long-term scenario looks like if you're going to have a thousands of these things does that mean it's just extreme fragmentation or does that mean we got to a thousand because we actually made it super easy to not worry about fragmentation uh but kind of the the correction on aggregator versus de for me is actually the differentiation

between monolithic versus modular versus is aggregated which I I think is is kind of uh the the the conclusion I came up with so with that as a preface what I want to do is I want to got to just start with syep um and have you talk about what is the aggregated vision that you just announced recently and we'll kind of use that to frame everything else in context yeah so uh to understand uh aggregated like you know like just a brief history that you know blockchain started as uh these monolithic you know single chains where uh you know like all the smart contracts are living in one single virtual machine and there's a one single state machine and you know those smart contracts have a lot of

composability with each other but the problem is that you know if that is a single state machine there are inherent uh you know problems with the scale because there is like all the transactions are hitting one single state machine then the monolithic uh you know kind of uh thesis came along uh which is like you can have different different like hundreds of rollups as we said thousands of these rollups they can use their own data availability own kind of proving systems and all that and derive from the security of ethereum preferably uh and uh you know but so in that setup you have like huge amount of scale but problem is the fragmentation right like because those chains are inherently separate uh with themselves

but uh the aggregated thesis is that basically instead of like these individual State machines you have aggregated state machine and that we are you know we intend to achieve using the power of ZK where you can have all these State machines and the virtual machines running uh on top of them they publish their ZK proofs and we aggregate them together in one single proof so that using that aggregated proof These Chains can have cross-chain uh interoperability uh and they don't have to rely on the cryptoeconomic security of each of these chains which kind of like later on can became can become uh can create scaling problems and the goal there is that you we want to create like

the internet web to current uh internet kind of environment where I even see these individual like single sequencer chains as like trustless servers like you know there's not even like we just complicate them calling them chains and all that these are trustless servers uh just like you in web2 you have trustful servers which can interact with each other with you know standard RPC methods and all that and there is seamless uh interface for the user uh here uh these will be like trustless servers and using that uh using ZK you can achieve that trustless nness but other mechanism like you know optimistic mechanisms and all that can also uh you know achieve that kind of effect I mean a great in and I think then it sort of puts the spotlight

on cello you start as an L1 and uh that was kind of the monolithic approach that hey we we see all these issues we think we can correct it because we get full control over the stack um and then uh seven eight months ago you kind of decided to think consider the op stack so maybe walk us through how you kind of came to the de or why you came to the decision and I guess what's happening now is that still the case where are you in that process yeah for us uh yeah this uh let's let's just say the world get a lot more complex uh since Cab's first uh or you know Co engineering team put forward the proposal and uh I will say at the same time the excitement to be and nl2 uh to ethereum long term is has risen

even more I think it's it's clear that a lot of the M share and a lot of the the density right of innovation is going to be in etherum ecosystem so that continues to be yeah super exciting now with respect to the architecture um it is it is interesting right because in many ways as an L1 you very much um you know you you think about sort of what are all the things that you I know Jesse just made this kind of comparison of like countries and states right and you kind of have to like see okay how do we get all the pieces that are necessary for the citizens right to to exist the infrastructure right that's that's needed to actually you know now like blockchain terms to build the applications that are that you want to

see in the world and uh I think that mindset can can can shift with dl2 right so a lot of the um Vision there is that you in the long term you probably have one big economic zone right that connects all the l2s maybe l3s right and that is great but in the short term we we're not there yet right so in the short term it's actually you have a bunch of different economic zones and I think a chain like Cel that's making this transition has to figure out okay what are things that uh we have and what are things that we can gain from being part of a certain economic zones and or what are the benefits you know if we now kind of go back to like the the Stacked view of that right what would be

benefits for someone to for example launch an L3 on cello um and that's that's pretty interesting because I I don't actually think it's kind of an or right it's it's not like you're either kind of believing in one or the other thesis but I see sort of both coexist right there will be um you know projects launching chains that will want to you know for example in the case of seller right gas currency some of the features will adopt those at the L3 level or even be happy with the finality um you know given the decentral sequencer that our you know B are going to become sequencers can provide versus sort of ethereum finality um and obviously their cost trade-offs there but ultimately you know I think uh there's there's sort of this

thing that I think I would be curious to hear the others you know this is a little bit hard to kind of evaluate right now what's the benefit actually of the ability for a user right to use applications across a bunch of different uh ecosystems right right now this is like the data we have is Maybe a little bit um yeah skewed right because you know a lot of the early adopters in this world are hunting airation trying to right but what is sort of the real necessity for someone um to actually use application across five six7 different l2s or chains and that's uh that's I think less clear but I think it's an important consideration um so answer the first part of that question but I was talked a lot so I'll I'll stop here I

think that's actually so helpful because it does set the context Pro for the rest of those chats so so maybe I'll just kind of jump directly to Stephen which is um kind of given what justel talked about as they kind of originally considered the op stack and and the aggregator view now um how do you kind of well how does the any trust Vision fit in here and what is it for for audience yeah so in the arbitrum it's more like the orbit Vision any trust is part of it the arbitrum vision uh or the vision that I have I should say for the arbitrum ecosystem is one of uh there will be a few public chains that are very very uh you know general purpose and have high option we see that today in arbitrum one leading in defi we see arbitrum Nova doing a ton in gaming and

then there will be uh a proliferation of projects that need to have their own chains and the question is what do those chains look like and how do they connect to each other and how can they sort of you know get these interop or efficiencies uh um and how do they get that functionality so in this Vision there's this idea basically called uh a chain cluster which is this notion that different chains can sort of cluster themselves to uh become uh get fast interrup between them and in doing so they'll have to sort of attach themselves in a particular way and uh we are very much of the and this is kind of like the super chain uh concept which you may have heard about in the previous talk and I'm very firmly of the belief that it doesn't make sense for there to

be one super chain for for everyone and the reason is you have to give up a lot because the idea is if I can if there are two chains chain a and chain B and chain a can send funds quickly to chain B quickly meaning faster than ethereum settlement then what happens is uh negative things can proliferate there's a hack on chain a it can quickly send a bag to chain B so you sort of have to trust very much everyone in this Zone and that's why when you have and that's why you know uh you know as Jesse just mentioned optimism has governance as a service and they basically in their case have to govern this chain and make sure that everyone's running the software that's approved and the software that um follows that they vetted and they're not concerned about their security but we

very much in the orbit land security is obviously critical um but we want to give people the ability to C do customiz abilities you'll have arbit morbit chains that do like very differentiated things some may do things that just change the economics and uh allow creators to have direct royalties on chain or or enforce that on chain but some may do things that are like very deep there's a team uh called Phoenix that you know that they're actually um building a chain with deep cryptography embedded FH NX so fhe is for fully home War encryption now if you're wunning one large chain it would be very hard for us to get to comp that like you know they have confidence and they should have confidence but like do I really have the ability to like vet Phoenix's code uh me as a different train developer do I want

to take them on as part of my cluster no what happens is if you have one you sort of limit customizability and another great example by the way a simpler example is data availability so we're seeing a proliferation of different data availability Services now they all have slightly different models and slightly different potential uh failure cases right so you have any trust which is the data availability use a data availability committee that's uh you know arbitrum Nova is running but you also have arbitr Integrations with Celestia with end with uh espresso Etc with n and you know you can go down the list and uh each of these has a slightly different trust model and uh if arbitrum one was to Cluster itself with an alternative da chain it would sort of get the worst of all security so we think that these clusters should be

organic shards that decide to connect themselves it could be the gaming chains the wacky cryptography chains if you will um the Celestia chains I don't know exactly how will happen but I believe that there should be um these clusters of really good interop and then you have to build really good bridging in between these different clusters as well and that's one thing we're working uh together with espresso team on shared sequencing which is another really big piece of this puzzle but I think together with these various technologies that sort of complement each other you can build a really good story of how to both have customizability and you can take the arbitrum code uh arbitrum orbit you can launch as an L2 or an L3 but not only launch as an island it also get really good interop via VIA other chains in your cluster or or more broadly to the

AR ecosystem or via things like espresso more broadly to the rollup ecosystem because I think one of the themes here at least for me is interop shouldn't be limited to a single ecosystem if you have the polygon chains I know your aggregation layer is a similar Vision if you have the polygon chains only talk to the polygon chains the ARB chains stock the ARB chain Etc you hav an accomplish it's unnecessary seller you don't want that 100% so our goal is to start off say how can we uh break past that boundary as well uh it it would be like you know if you see that web to analogy it will look like okay if you have a Linux website you cannot you know interact with the website which is running on the Windows Server it should not be like that right so uh These

Chains should like in in the long enough uh scenario These Chains when a user is attracting with these chains for them all of them should feel like one single chain just like when we connect to the internet we are we don't have to connect to the you don't need to worry about what database is storing your data on any yeah and that's ultimately I think cuz I thing it unites all of us here uh and sell to now is we're ethereum aligned ethereum based and that you know we we all have our own uh sort of uh project to for promote or we're very very partial to but we also all uh I think care very deeply about ethereum and we don't want to create a fragmented or fractured ethereum it may happen a little bit uh in you know your best interoperability may be between two

chains of the same sta but I think there's a lot that we can do and it should be a focus you know of mind to say hey how can we interoperate with ZK sync and with polygon and with C on whatever stack that they end up with um and I guess so finally Alex um maybe kind of having now heard all of that let's kind of comment on the Z stack and in hypers scalability and sort of where do you think that fits in yeah so we uh at ziki sync we're building something called the hyper chin Network which is a very similar idea I think we are all talking about the the same vision of web 3 as the internet of chains because I think we we all came to conclusion that uh it's like the internet cannot be built on on one single server or on one

data center like on one platform so is the the situation with web three like if we're building the internet of value it must resemble internet in its ability to scale infinitely without any limits and Bounds and um to have many heterogeneous systems that are governed by different people by different communities different organizations um and this is uh the um the question is like how you solve it with technological approaches like what what what you're going to use to to create this uh this network uh iing we believe that there is only one technology that can solve this there is like it's it's decided it's going to be ZK uh you will have all of these chains

like now we're getting somewhere eventually yeah I mean like you ask for it you uh throw this throw this uh I mean eventually all these chains will have to upgrade to ZK for a very simple reason we want to build Sy like this network must trustless interoperable so like those all of those chains must be able to talk to each other irrespective of trust assumptions right you don't you can't scale economic trust assumptions even if you subjectively believe that this chain is safe you cannot convince a third-party system about this but you can easily convince a like third party chain that uh this chain has like

executed certain transactions uh because there is a zero knowledge proof that guarantees that and the the beauty of your knowledge proofs is like what we now call the ZK singulari you can aggregate proofs of of like different chains like maybe like unlimited number of transactions within each chain and then this chains together and until you get one single proof which you settle on layer one on ethereum then you generate the the proof for ethereum Block itself we can like we are at a stage where we can do it and then every single wallet every single mobile phone the world will have built-in very fire which you can check in one second and you have like the latest ethereum block and you know that it's correct from

Genesis all the transactions of ethereum all the transactions of on the thousands of permissionless chains that are U being aggregated and being settled there are valid and you don't care who runs them and the the beauty of it and and really the focus of what we're doing at ziki syn where we're we're going to be fighting I already see fight the big fight coming and we'll we'll talk about this hopefully in a second uh is we must ensure that the web 3 remains Sovereign from the perspective of individual user and individual chains we don't want to push everyone under the same exact standard and the same like few big centralized providers that they're going

to be serving everyone in a trustless you know don't be evil way as we've seen this happening in the big tag before in web 2 like we we need to protect that and this is the priority of the design choices of ZK sync to make sure that all those chains are completely separate like they can have completely separate consensus algorithms sequencers centralized sequencers decentralized sequencers um be you know like owned by different people have different tokens whatever but they should all interoperate as though like from the user experience should be like like email you have your email address like Alex at metalabs you have cardig at e global uh I should not care like I send a

message I know that the message is point to point encrypted and authenticity is guaranteed there are no people in between who can tamper with this message like if I'm sending from like met laabs to Gmail account uh you know I should not have a like be need to have two Gmail accounts to interact with each other I should be able to send that from so I'm on a hunch here uh I'll I'll let stepen come first like which which martial arts we are choosing for the fight is it kful or maybe nerd fight um Angry comment ner fight um short come um okay um yeah so here's my and actually I had a very similar

conversation M misari made it this year with Brendan farmer we actually came to the same conclusion which which is the following um there is I think a lot of hype uh out there and a lot of uh bit of hand wavess so I'm going to be specific and I'm sure there'll be responses here so I encourage it uh I might get B and up from both sides here so I have a disadvantage um but the thing is the problem is uh time and the timeline is the critical problem here and the timeline the drop so let me tell you what I mean at offchain Labs besides for building arbitrum we build prism prism is the leading consensus client for ethereum and uh one thing that I know is ethereum consensus takes time and when the ethereum consensus takes about 12 to

17 minutes on on expectation for finalization well finalization it doesn't mean ethereum blocks take that long talk about okay so finalization at you can't get reor so you know that like okay this transaction 100 as finality and it won't get reordered and so here's the big problem and here's why that number is fundamental and critical to this conversation okay so you have two ZK chains we'll call it chain a and chain B how does that sound you're a you're B um you have two ZK chains and let's pretend that they're both producing proofs immediately too um it doesn't really matter because really matters on chain that's not the case today but let's just assume that they're both producing proofs immediately I know the polygon team recently had an announcement which they made some really good progress towards that um which is

exciting so let's just pretend that that's in the case today so you have chain a and chain B and they have proofs immediately unless say these proofs are posted immediately with data on chain now the vision that was just described is hey we don't want uh for a sequence or you just have basically proving so I verify this proof and this verifies that there's no like intermediate Trust there's no intermediate optimistic assumption because we're just verifying these these proofs as they happen but that's where that 12 to 17 minute thing happened because you can give me a chain and you can give me an immediate proof but the thing that tells me that that that that chain is the canonical chain and the transactions are actually the transactions of that chain is the finality of ethereum because here's what happens you post your transactions on

chain again immediately it doesn't really happen immediately but I'm going to grant you that immediately you post a proof on chain immediately and then 11 minutes later 12 minutes later there's a reorg on ethereum and it turns out that those trans that proof is correct for that set of transactions but that set of transactions is no longer the final set of transactions right because ethereum is the source of Truth here we need ethereum finality to tell me what are the inputs before we talk about what are the outputs so I'm granting you the benefit of the doubt and saying all the outputs are immediate but you need all of those inputs to be finalized to actually know what the chain is so the the proof can be there but it's proving a chain that I don't actually know is the correct state of the chain today so

it's not the case that you can have two ZK chains that automatically uh they can try to sort of try to condition on different transactions and say I I'll do it condition on that this is transactions but ultimately all that can change and it can lead to a big reorg if one of them changed and that's not the set of transactions so I think if you want to build a system that um every time there's a block or user transaction it waits 12 to 17 minutes to to get that interrupt that's wonderful and I think that ZK technology can do that for you but actually with the interrupt that users want is something a little bit faster than that they want fast and immediate interop and if you're if you're relying on ethereum security which is what they hey we're ethereum secar the ZK proofs alone don't need do

that because I can give you a ZK proof of a chain a and then just swap out the transactions of the chain B and actually so when I spoke to Brendan about this at misari minet earlier this year I think it was in September um he said and you can look back at the video he saids Steph you're going to love this I want to tell you he said there's an optimistic assumption built in here and of course there's an optimistic assum was like you just introduced the buffer which means so the core difference here between these chains and you know if you want to take away one sound bite from today it's all ZK chains are also optimistic the core difference is how quickly they settle that optimism so do they get out of that optimism in 15 minutes or 20 minutes or do they get out

of optimism in a week but ultimately you're not getting this you still need to trust someone an optimistic assumption for that Vision to work s following me this logic like every transaction on etherium is optimistic you cannot trust any single transaction you have to wait 10 10 minutes or 17 minutes you cannot pay for coffee with ethereum because it's not final it can be still reworked and there might be a double span absolutely and there are different levels of of trust the the coffee vendor is may be willing to take the risk of him losing the dollar for the coffee but you're proposing a vision where there's billions of dollars and hundreds of chains that are fast trusting each other and you're leaving out the piece that's optimistic you can say it's optimistic because ethereum's optimistic that's great but like let's put that piece in the conversation

that's a little bit of a strowman because within the ecosystems like ZK syn or polygon the uh uh interactions will like like the our design priority at ZN is to keep the chain Sovereign so we don't want to build optimistic assumptions in so we actually no you can wait for the proof to be settled on some intermediate layer you don't have to wait for ethereum finality on this because they reor will not touch things that happen within the system if you want interoperability between completely separate ecosystems and you probably W to wait this time has to go through L1 to another the conversation here is the interop of course if you're in one chain you don't have to worry about this because your chain will sort of do its own thing but the whole conversation here is using ZK for interrupt between

two different chains within two different chains within one ecosystem I don't know Tech he's saying interrupt between like a polyg what what what how do you technically Define an ecosystem and how are you getting past the fact that they what are they sharing that they don't need ethereum's trust and they're trusting and they're trusting each other then like where is this trust right there're what does it mean that they're in the same equos system does that mean that they trust each other and I'm going to I'm going to just uh quench my kind of curiosity on this one um I I don't remember the full specifics but I do remember part of the road map here is to actually Inu a single slot finality for ethereum am I am I misremembering this like like does that change what you just kind of commented on do we actually can

get to a single slot finality um work in the like the next two years or three years with those types of things I'm just kind of curious on that that front single s finality will bring down this interoperability that to like the single slot ofum which is but but I want to say here is that you know like the finality is like a security and safety thing also but finality is also you know very closely related to the ux and how if you see all the all the layer to's work is that you know you have a spectrum of finality for example if I do a transaction today on arbitrum I get a immediate 400 millisecond confirmation amazing ux 250 250 amazing ux probably the best in the industry right now and the moment I get that uh you know some

level of confirmation I'm already assuming that by the time they will post all the transactions and you know State proofs and all that then there is one another level of like you know I know that now the transactions and proof is on ethereum and then SE after 7 days I can have like full finality right and same case you know in the ZK uh World also like for that's why like you know we are we have this a layer right which is aggregation layer is which is which sits in the Middle where let's say if the proof starts coming very very fast let's say 5 Seconds 10 seconds proof you are putting on the aggregation layer an aggregation layer will also have a certain amount of Economic Security let's say a few billion dollars of let's say polygon sted over there and you get like one next level of like you know uh

safety over there and then this a layer is going to post let's say every 1 2 minutes to ethereum and you get the full finality in 15 20 seconds so it's all about like you know the user experience uh you know in terms of that Spectrum also coming back to the op versus ZK like you know I mean polygon is like all you know in on ZK probably and and people who are active in ZK you would know we have like probably the strongest ZK team the space so much of innovation with bony too let you guys fight that out I'm out of fight fight no fight no fight like you know I think a lot of research uh like you know we've recently published uh research with the Stark where I think uh you know zik sing team has bosom which is like highly inspired

by uh you know po blon too and things like that so we are contributing open source and anybody can take it that's not not a problem at all uh but in terms of like optimistic versus ZK world I think in the even in the long enough term there is a space for optimistic uh you know security also which is cryptoeconomic Security in a way and how I see the the longtime the long-term world or at least midterm the world is going to pray out is that this whole new internet trustless internet it will have large number of ZK you know proven chains but it will also have few large clusters of cryptoeconomic security because the reason for that is that when you have a optimistic rollup and you

know I'm arguing for the optimistic rollups here is that the ZK proving is always there is always some level of cost involved in that right now it's around compared to the execution ZK proofs are around at least 1,000 to 2,000 extra cost on top of it like talking about time or or like the cost right you know the there is a like you can execute the entire ethereum you know transactions on a simple $50 uh you know machine on AWS it will take you few days or you can compute all the transactions if you had to prove all of that that will take you a lot of time so there is a cost involved there right but when you have optimistic rollups you have a cost of capital because capital is securing the security right like you know there's

a slashing and all that challenge mechanism All That So eventually the cost of if the cost of securing the optimistic rollup is uh you know let's say lower than the in the cases where cost of securing the roll with optimistic uh economic uh security is less than the cost of proving with the ZK then in those cases optimistic Security will be better right but in case where you have like a ZK proving cost is better than let's say securing uh cost with the with the with the cost of capital it will be like you know ZK for so I think the world will exist in a like at least in the mid-run you will have ZK uh you know kind of uh rollups and some optimistic so to say two things uh I'll go go for it no I just I just

like I love this this is great actually like I'm taking notes um but no I I I want to maybe I don't know where you want to take the conversation but I I just want to like where it's going one thing I mean for the audience this may I mean this is kind of maybe amusing right it's great right it's not we're not all here like Kumbaya but I think this is also this speaks to the strength right of where ethereum is today right because there's not just one approach right there's multiple approaches there there's trade-offs right and at you know seller right now in the community the the the the discussions that are going on right I mean there I'm I'm I'm seeing that firsthand right so since the initial proposal which which was with OP stack we've actually you know cim has taken a deep look at at polygon stack at

arbitrum at at ZK sync and it's clear that there's there's trade-offs to each of the approaches right and there's benefits and uh you know there's there's there's no like best solution right without like you know saying this you right there's for for a given use case right for a given even like now one like cell that's looking to make that transition right there's going to be criteria that are going to determine which which of these is today the best the best choice right I think the the thing to look out for here is where are there situations when you go down this kind of path right that creates some lock in that is harder to kind of unwind long term right because ultimately I think the little bit to point that Alex was making right um ultimately we're all

building towards this kind of longer term future of you know everything think sort of being a lot more open and connected um and I think that's that's sometimes that gets a little lost right and I think um but the the tldd out here would want to take everyone like take away right it's like hey there's going to be like billions of people coming into this you know webstream world you're building applications for them and the good news is that within sort of the ethereum world right there's plenty of different approaches and there's even more Beyond this panel right that are all pushing the boundaries of like giving people uh a set of features that can map to what they're looking to build so just maybe as a you know like perspective I first of all I agree with that vision

and know to be clear I I agree with most of what's on deep set as well which is there's a lot of value you know these guys are really incredible things and they to be honest they've shattered my expectations if you look back at my academic history well before I published the Aron paper uh in 2018 I published papers on ZK proving system so like even as just a a tech nurd I'm like very very excited about the work that you guys are doing and you're doing uh uh really fantastic work and I think you know the way we think about things is what's the best technology today and where are we going I don't know exactly where we're going um I haven't taken a particular bet there but I believe firmly that uh today from a cost perspective from a maturity and a flexibility perspective

optimistic World ups are the right Solutions and their ability to upgrade you know in time to something that you know I don't know I haven't taken a bet on ZK proving maybe the next thing you know I can tell you this in 5 years from now there'll be something better well everything we're talking today will look pretty primtive that's the way it looks if you look back remember when everything used to be at plasma for years oh yes plasma and St Channel future only one thing I want to just say is there is a common misconception I I don't think this was a main point of what you were saying but like optimistic rollups don't have what I call cryptoeconomic security because the staking is basically an anti- an anti-spam mechanism so what happens is uh the Assumption the security and assumption in an optimistic rollup is

that um one uh validator today that validator set is Whit listed but once uh in the in the vision any anyone can validate and that's true with arbit and Bol uh when it comes to mainnet um one any one validator can enforce security of the chain and if they lose they have to put down a stake to do that and they'll lose that stake and that's sort of an anti-pan mechanism but anyone can go ahead and do that so like it's not the case that the stakes are secure in the chain it's the chain has that assumption I I actually should have said socioeconomic security I don't know whether you agree with that because for 7 days you are expecting somebody from the community to run all the transactions if there is a fault then you run it so I should have said so or you do it yourself right one of the

nice things about bold is that you can actually have te teaming up people to do it in the old protocol it's like someone can like fake they start doing it and they sort of lose it on purpose but in bold you get to sort of commit to your previous so you have to you know you or you do it yourself or or or become part of a coalition that's doing zooming out like you know I mean I I just want to say this part also that you know everybody should read like there's a Wikipedia page protocol Wars right so I think all of us are like whing for the same vision this is this trustless free internet and these are all interoperable internets interoperable okay inter inter there is inter already right so so trustless internet and I think in the medium term many of these approaches are

diverging approaches but eventually like they all come together and I like personally I'm I'm big believer on that like I speak to Steven on like almost weekly basis all the time you know and then uh you know everyone like op team cell team everyone I'm not speaking to Alex yet but like very soon at the time is also arriving there but I actually want to uh figure out a place that you know where like all of the protocols can work together and Share value right otherwise that this basically this fight is all value cruel to be honest at the end of the day you're all fighting for how do we let others win exactly and at the end of the day that's what's the the goal that should be maximized and you have different nuances on standards on what we think this is the best way to

approach this that's fine and acceptable I mean the good thing about standard is that there's something to choose from right and uh and we all get there but U I think it's like kind of shared a very healthy discussion if somehow like you know the community and maybe it doesn't reach like there's a inherent capitalism involved there and few approaches will win out eventually but if we could find a way where there could be like shared value approval across like many of these approaches and they keep evolving into something which is better for the users that's what we should try and we see this on the social layer too like if you had a salon on an Avalanche person up here we'd all be best friends so you know we have a lot that we agree on even though we can have we are we are already

good friends we're like when we fight we fight not with people we fight for ideas to figure out the truth and like we it can get heated just because we want to figure out like what what's the right I think this is a great new to end this on so what I think Renee Alex C and be for this uh basic conversation and it looks like we're going to have a a version two of this thing this entirely about interoperability so thanks again uh with that uh please join us for lunch and we'll resume in an hour thanks everybody