Designing ethereum user experiences for humans

Transcript

one two you back I think is that eye contact there's Alex we're good okay I don't think we have sound though we can check and so

that means you can protect Utah people in your industry you can stop ok floppers you gave the time to top investors you can protect anyone and sync up we all know that one of the biggest problems in life is the obstruction in front of you at the movie right so thank you everyone first thank you to each TC and to everyone who braved the coronavirus threats to be here and thank you to everyone who's tuning in to the live stream thank you for your interest in designing crypto experiences for humans and thank you also to the community for your warm embrace of pipo it's been humbling for us as we launched pipo at first at Def Con in Osaka last year just a few months

ago gather tons of user feedback from the early users did a relaunch at eat Denver a couple weeks ago and just phenomenal to see the warm embrace by the community and thank you so much for your support and your feedback every step of the way as we try to build a community app for the crypto community who are we so I'm Jason Goldberg I'm founder CEO of pipo by OST you see here some of our other team members we have a big group of folks from our company who are here in Paris there's seven of us be Simona is here she's been hosting a number of workshops particularly around onboarding people to crypto and developing community Ben Bowlin our team who is our

chief blockchain strategist is giving a talk tomorrow on scalability and hope everyone turns out for that one as well today I want to talk about we will accomplish three things in the presentation here today so the first I want to give you a little background on the thinking that went into building the pepo app and the people app is a crypto community app for the crypto community it has embedded tokens of appreciation we're very proud of the user experience we've developed inside of pepo and the first I want to walk through is four years of development and thinking Design Thinking that went into how we got to the people app today the second is we've been been presenting awarding the UX awards at the hackathons

around the world aetherium hackathons starting in Waterloo last Waterloo last year Denver and London this year we'll be doing the whole eath mobile series this year and I walked walk up and through some of the principles of great crypto UX that we've been developing with input from many folks in the community and then finally last but not least we're going to launch the product today I'm going to show you a few things we're launching here from our team as well as invite a special guest up to show everyone a brand new product that's launching with a mainstream application on our technology here at ECC today so how many of you have actually been able to download the people app and give it a try all right almost everyone in the

entire room thank you sincerely thank you Pipo is a community app for the crypto community you'll see in the people app there are communities that are basically have channels within the community where they're able to gain subscribers and have 30-second videos and every like in pipo earns a token and the interactions are seamless now I encourage everyone watching this to download the pepo app not because necessarily I'm ok I do want you to try the app and I want to use the social features but more so if you're interested in aetherium development or you interested in blockchain development take a look at the smart contracts that are powering the people app for those of you who are in the Argent talk a few

minutes ago Arjun is a great example of what can be done when you have smart contracts powering a wallet Pipo is a great example in OC technology which powers it is a great example of how you can have smart contract wallets powering any app and what we've done is we've been bet we basically built the OSD technology to enable a smart contract wallet to be placed in any application so what you see here is basically four years of development that we've been working on at OST to enable the ethereum application layer and what i mean by that is what we've done is we've base base enabled any app to use our SDKs to embed the Internet of money the internet of value into any application any mainstream application any web to

application any app any website can embed a smart contract wallet into their application to enable seamless token transfers user to user user to company brands to user the sky's the limit as to what you can do when you start to enable any action in any app to result in a token transfer it could be an upvote it can be a like a 5-star review anything someone can do an application can now have value attributed to it how do we get here so first ticket step back there's this myth when we talk about UX user experience that UX is all about design the reality is UX is about how do you solve problems similar there's a myth that UX is all about the interface it's

the pixels it's the last finishes as the graphic design we look at UX the reality is that UX is about the combination of a great story a great architecture and the implementation that enables you to solve those problems for the users so the key to all of this is starting with the problem not with a solution and I think all too often we often look we look at blockchain and crypto as an elegant solution looking for problems to solve and what I really encourage everyone to do is to start the other direction and kind of say well what is the problem that we want to solve for the user and then how do we build a right architecture to solve the users problem so let me walk you through the problem that we consider four years ago the

problem that we thought of was how do we enable people to earn more than just likes we looked out on the world and we saw that increasingly everyone's a content creator and we're giving our content every day to the platforms and they use it to sell for their own purposes so they can make money by advertising we know this is how Facebook Instagram snapchat etcetera have built their businesses off of our content and so we said well what if how do we enable though how do you level the playing field and how do you enable influencers to collect more than just likes enable people to actually earn real money from contribute their content the aha we had was well what if every like transferred value and what if that happened on a peer-to-peer basis and didn't go through

any platforms in order to make it possible but uh you really wouldn't want to have this experience so imagine the Instagram user that they go to you know to open the Instagram app and the first thing that greeted with is please write down these twelve words to secure your wallet well that wouldn't be a great user experience or to open up another application in order to have a wallet that wouldn't be a great experience either well even if the user let's say really wanted to participate in this peer-to-peer decentralized economy in the Instagram app and Instagram wanted to have their users suffer through that experience even if they made them through that made it through that and they click that like button to send a let's say a penny or two to two you know

the person's to throw that they liked well there's no way Instagram users are going to put up with this alright so this is basically please open another app in order to you know confirm the transaction make sure you have some Ethan that wallet in order to do so to pay for gas there's no way that they would basically you that Instagram but a lot have its users wait you know for block confirmations and this is particularly a particular you know there's no way we could live with let's say a two or three cent transaction fee to send one cent of value so we went down the rabbit hole in particular Ben and I back in 2016 Ben had been working in aetherium and arsons early on and at the time he was

working at Mon axe and we started brainstorming okay how do we solve this problem how do we enable people to affect more than just likes and we started thinking oh my god programmable money and it could have the internet value and we could enable you know apps to eject this value into any application and Design Thinking led us to think about it like this it basically said what if you could embed a smart contract wallet into any application this would solve a number of things you could have and do so on layer two alright so that you can then have a really great user experience but do so where users could be could could earn and collect tokens that have value in a with superfast transactions cheap transactions and a regular regulatory

compliant manner as well and then also how we provide an SDK so that you could basically put this into any application so that's what basically led us to building all of this and so you think about how you have UX can actually guide technology rather than technology guiding UX we started off with the user problem four years ago that led us to build this architecture for how you would actually build a bridge between layer 1 layer 2 how do you deploy smart contract wallets on layer 2 and how do you do so in a way where you have basically all this anchor back in at layer 1 and enable anyone to build on this technology so open source as much of this as possible and enable SDKs for

people to build their own applications on top of this technology so the result of that is that we now have apps like pepo and this is from each Denver where you see Hana here who was one of the the leaders to be Denver it was an amazing participation to eat Denver in the pepo app and within pipo screw it let me just show you guys live within the pepo app every time you every time you like something and the people app it transfers value and that value is on chain so let's see if we can show

that being bold enough to do a live demo maybe not try one more time got it okay what a second it's gonna work then we need this for the next part also so there we go okay there we go so opening up my phone here we have lots

of icons I'm gonna clip on the people app here we have videos playing from people here at ECC and every time I tap the like button the P button here it's a little bit delayed it's transferring a token from me the other person and so they're earning with every like I can also go to their profile and just send them some money so I'm gonna send this person 2 bucks and these transactions are now sent and what's enabling all this is every user in P PO has a smart contract wallet this is provided by the SDK that we've developed and these are

the contracts that are running including a token holder address so users can access their tokens from multiple devices as well as a a device manager address and a recovery address to be able to recover from smart contract and what all this enables is also the really smooth user experience you're seeing here where the user I can just like someone's content I don't have to sign the transaction and I don't aware about paying for gas all these transactions are instant and that is enabled by session keys which are execution keys that the users private Keys authorizes their multi-sig for these low value transactions and if I just really quickly go out here to the block

explorer just to show you guys this is always real this is basically our version of ether scan for the layer 2 chainz and here's the transactions that I just did the one pepo the 185 pipo and 11 pipo poins that are sent to this user and you see these transfers are super fast on chain so so before I jump into the next session you know one of the things that we're really thankful for is just the way as I said at the top to how the communities embrace pepo and it's been giving us lots of feedback on it and I'll just Segway this part of the

presentation by saying you know I think those of us have been experienced I've been in the space for a long time you know winter taught us all a lot of lessons one of them in particular is to ignore the noise there is a lot of noise out there and said to just build stuff that people need and really focusing on delivering you know great user experiences and I think what people is hopefully showing and we're glad to be a part of it is that with crypto especially the etherium community is our killer app so we've been super proud and thankful to be hosting the UX Awards at various hackathons around the globe we'll be doing all the youth global series this

year and it's been also really great for us to be able to see the community really starting to embrace great crypto UX and really see that as this technology matures and as we are able to build better things in hackathons and outside of hackathons that having great UX is critical to mass adoption so I want to real quickly roll through five principles of great crypto UX just to show everyone some of what we've been kind of working with doing workshops on at these hackathons and then we're going to introduce some new products here today so the first thing with great UX is there's got to be a use case and what I like to think about a way to kind of describe try this is yes but so and here's how and my meme of this is that

you can compare almost any product you might be developing you can go through this framework of yes there are people who have some problem or something they're trying to get done but here's something that's stopping them or limiting them from getting it done or making it harder or more cumbersome or things that they the basically their pain point so through our insight we decided to build this and here's how it works and so give an example of this is for instance for pepo kind before is you know yes you know people are creating more content than ever before and everyone is a creator but the big platforms are you know basically capturing all the value and it's harder than the end if ever people to stand out from the signal from the noise so we looked at on this market and we said

what if we were to create a new type of social community which is based around real authentic interactions and have every token or every like earned value and therefore pepo now how do we do this is you know by enabling this you know the wallet SDK that I showed you and these you know token transfers now one thing I just point out is I don't even mention the word blockchain once here because the users problem is not blockchain the users problem is not a theory I'm the users problem is how do they earn more than likes and that's the important thing to understand differentiate is when you talk about great UX start off with what is the actual problem you're trying to solve not sorry actually probably trying to solve not just the technology involved

so the second is in order to do so you really didn't understand user motivations you really understand you know who are these people that we're building for and what is the most important dimension for them and for this really think through is like everyone switches from something no matter what you're building even if it's frontier technology that we're all building here and in the arab space everyone is switching from something it might be switching from doing something non blockchain or non crypto or it might be switching from complacency you're not even caring about your solution but in order for us to occupy their time to get a little bit more of their attention we had to come up with some basic understanding or kind of real keen understanding and so what is the primary dimension that we'll get in a switch

from what they're doing today to this something new from our perspective the only way to do this is by talking to people and that's kind of one of the key kind of hallmarks of our organization is that we do hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of user interviews it's just our petrol non-stop kind of talking to people and talking to people and getting their feedback and input we have really briefly a framework we put together for how do we capture how do we do interviews and how do we gather this feedback it's about all about having a great foundation having participation from everyone in the company and how do you turn that into prioritization this is an example we use notion as a way to lay a foundation for how do we group things based on whether it's pure discovery or whether it is feedback

about features or whether it's hypotheses that we're testing with users and our entire team looks at this on a weekly basis second participation really encouraged everyone to really think about this one of the things that we've tried to do at our company is instill that everyone does interviews everyone talks to customers and the key thing here is that people with different backgrounds and different can all listen to the same conversation and hear things totally different so you'll you'll listen to an interview and an engineer will hear one way a UX designer here a different way a finance person will hear at a different way the CEO here a different way and gathering those different perspectives what enables you to actually solve the problems together and then the third is prioritization and

obviously I mean this is where the rubber hits the road you can't build great products unless you're able to collapse all these great points the feedback these interviews into okay now what do we actually do and what's actually going to kind of matter in the product third empowerment especially in crypto how do we get more people on board and in the product launch so we're gonna see in a few minutes you're gonna see some some of these elements but really think through when it comes to kind of introducing new people to your product if you're building a crypto product how do we you know make the onboarding more familiar how do we cut the steps down how do we not get the users way and I think one of the great things we all strive can strive for is how do we surprise and delight I constantly get

asked by people and it's really humbling I say they look at people and they say no way this is not crypto we don't believe you this can't be on chain and that to me is like yes that's that success point now we still have a lot more to go but that's we all just strive for is that people look at our apps and say I don't believe this is crypto because crypto that I know is really cumbersome and hard and this app just works because what we want again is to solve users problems not necessarily just to build crypto apps fourth innovation great UX typically employs a new technology a new something in order to create a step function change and the perience and v responsibility and I think this especially in the crypto space is a hallmark for great UX where

does the solution contribute to the common good this can be done directly so it could be that it actually helps lift people up it could be about things like we talked about all the time like banking the unbanked or providing ways for causes to earn money or for more transparency or more trust but there's also indirect ways like for instance releasing developer tools so anyone could build in technology and especially open sourcing the technology severing anyone just take and grab it so we've done this with aost technology the the wallet sdk and most of our technology is open source there's a toolkit that anyone can build on and today we're announcing two additions to that toolkit the first is we're launching the OSD

browser wallet SDK version 1 so up until now the interactions with pepo and OST have been entirely in mobile applications because of the inherent greater security inside of a mobile device and now we're launching the first browser wallet hybrid solution and you'll be able to log on to pipo as soon as next week in a mobile browser and interact and send and receive tokens within the browser connected to the mobile wallet a second we're also introducing the one too far sorry okay let's just bright here Oh missed the slide sorry so second I'd like to invite James Dyer up to the stage from decrypt

because decrypt is launching announcing today decrypt tokens powered by OSD technology so welcome James please [Applause] hello oh let's try not to fool late on the way up welcome James famous then everyone James is one of the cofounders of the Crypt and the had a product at the Crypt awesome cool great to be here so yes Jason say my name is James I one product at the Crypt just a little bit

of context hopefully some of you have heard of us we're media publication and we like to say that we give our readers a front row seat in how decentralized technology is changing the world so on to our content we'll organize around four pillars that's our daily news cycle that's the event the ideas and the people that matter in the space we do deep dives in web 3 we've done 5,000 plus web pieces on the inside story of finance looking back at the foundations of order and how that got up and running we do educational content that's high touch educational content breaking down the fundamentals and then finally we do our collections which are packages of content around the big ideas and the conversations that matter so young

company we've been publishing now for about 18 months or so for the best of our understanding we're the fastest growing crypto media site in the space we've had a pretty explosive year we've gone from just just favor 55,000 to 1.1 million along the way we've tried to build a brand on these four key principles so principle number one you know that's simplified the space and really a theme that's been key to Jason's presentation I think it's different for us because we're super in the trenches and immerse but to an outsider this space is super super complicated so for most let's make this intelligible to all we think the best way to do that is through telling great stories so that stories with the great narrative stories that entertain stories

inform we want to be a bear of truth we do that by celebrating the genuine success is that we're having we've seen many here at EDC and you know by the same token that's being skeptical that's calling out the bad actors that's calling out the scams that are part-and-parcel ultimately in kind of the rise of this space and then finally what I am excited to talk to you about and that is using web 3 to cover web 3 so what does that mean again so let's start with the problem - the problem for us is really how do we align these three core groups these three different parties this is really the Holy Trinity for a media company so that's us as a publisher that's the readers that are

understanding about this space then that's the brands that actually want to connect with people who were immersed so I think web 3 is giving us a new toolset Jason talked a little bit about this today in terms of how we can design better incentives so for us we wanted to live on that fourth principle that's using web 3 to cover web 3 that's building a community of people understanding and interacting with this technology for us we ran some experiments on site it was clear that as a real appetite for our readers to actually experiment with this tech yeah and I also think it's really of note that web 3 is definitely making people cognizant are they at the in the Crippler space outside that their

attention actually has value it's actually worth something and then finally brands I've see there's some great companies here ECC today many of you are going to have the goal of connecting with people who are at the forefront of this technology and a who are reading about it so that's what the problem was but particular for these brands the current methods of achieving this are broken I think like banner ads can put your odds with your audience or those made more traditional sponsorship models they're harder to measure it's what we came up with so we're excited to announce to seasons in partnership with OSD this is the new tokenized sponsorship model we really wanted to

focus on a building a win-win relationship between brands and readers one which is immersive that they actually that users want to experience they want to engage with the content one that's non intrusive we understand that this space and people operate in the space are quite sensitive to being marketed to but you know overall we wanted something that people generally got excited about so let's jump into it so the OST token powers our seasons this token is designed to power these win-win relationships how does it work what does that mean high-level the token is a way of rewarding our readers as they engage with our content as they share once you've gathered some tokens you can cash out for rewards like many economies and

you know it's like this in their in their space that we play in media our token economy is organized into seasons so seasons are a limited time period when these KO banda tokens are up the grabs so we've got an example up here behind all this is our base token and then each season we have a season partner so examples here we've got Robin Hood is a potential pilot season 9 designs is a season 1 partner and then each of these different seasons we partner with that brand and then exclusively in the live season you'll see here with Salesforce users will earn that specific token for that period of time so that's now we're second or watch

on to achieve let's quickly run into the technical requirements users first we know that's critical we need the toolset to be able to build a brilliant use of experience you know rightly or wrongly we're in we're in the era of instant gratification users expect things to be fast they want instant feedback we needed the infrastructure to support that transactions got to be cheap we wanted to embed this for-ward functionality and these micro transactions as low cost as we could security priority so having a platform where we've got three auditive smart contracts mobile first security where users control their keys is key and finally we have a small team so we

needed a tool set to be able to build and it's very quickly cool so back in 2019 one of our journalist Tim Copeland wrote a piece on improving UX you'll quickly start up we try to apply some of these lessons and you know this is what I were independently but you'll see there's quite a lot of overlap between some of the things that jason has touched on so let's battle through and then we can jump into a quick demo so streamline the onboarding experience as much as you possibly can that's four move or friction that's not having to enter a twelve words seed or using third-party software we don't believe you should ever make these away that's no lockouts when you're synchronizing with a protocol number three it's really important to show the user visual

feedback we do this in our case with our wallet indicator and our contact messages we don't believe that you should have anything blocked and related unless a the user actually believes that's valuable and B if necessary and then finally as we've seen you know with some of the best in class tech products in the web - error these surprise and delight factors can be really powerful so we're going to show you what we've been working on we're going to demonstrate a click-through of three flows these are get signed up these are I'm going to do some actions to earn some tokens and then finally I've got some tokens fast-forward I want to cash these out and get a reward you spinning me up mr. Goldberg yeah let's do it

can we see it I can sweet let's go you know switch away please cool so this is just to give it a context users going to use their decrypt app for the first time so let's start so this is what user would see they start off on our on our first page this is a curator feed of the top five stories from the last 24 hours so you'll see the user could maybe look at the latest stories that were published they can look at an article and we believe that it is important to never force the user to create a wallet

unless they want to they can use it and just explore a content and never have to actually engage in any of the web 3 parts but let's say the users reading a piece what we will do is we'll give the user a bit of context and I'll be like look if you do create a wallet you can start earning tokens so let's do that now so you can access our wallet menu from anywhere in the application you'll see here there's a clear call to action we've got very of information on the live season and and the brand that we've partnered for this live season so let's jump into the onboarding experience so standard stuff and now we're looking to kind of pair back and get through and get the user on board as quickly as we can and as few steps as possible that's email live validation for that

password again following best practices that's it and then we jump straight away into creating the wallet and deploying that on the user's newer device so with those two what's the great thing about this is all we're doing is entering a six digit PIN we're confirming that and that's it we give the user a third action extra additional step if they want to personalize their wallet if they want to add a bit of personal touch you can skip this if you want or plug in a photo you can add your name and you can see this preview coming up at the bottom that's it will save you'll see it goes straight back to exactly where the user was before and we'll give it a little context message about what's going on that what is activating and our

indicator goes to orange so it's important to note here the email and password that's being used here is a web to log in so it's not a web 3 login it's a hybrid application between web 2 elements and a web 3 wallet and that's what enables art partly what enables this really fantastic user experience the six digit PIN is is used to secure one third of a secret to enable user recover the wallet and the sixty Seconds users waiting right now for their wall to be generated is basically we're deploying a series of smart contracts on their behalf very similar to the smart contracts actually the exact same what you saw in the people app is what we're deploying for every user on layer 2 for the every

decrypt user as well so like Jason six seconds up as I've seen get a little contact message you're good to go you wallet setup it's activated I indicated goes to green and now we show a nice little balance in the top right hand corner and to get the user started off we airdrop them ten tokens so that's it that's getting a user off the ground let's talk about how they might by pulling different actions on a map so this he's working on a few different ways where they use can earn and the different actions in his centers for each for the time sake of time today we're just going to walk through reading an article and how you earn in that way so new session if we're going to load when you start a new session will give

the user some context you connected to the blockchain to the first core and your balances have synced so we can open up the wallet settings menu again and you'll see this mock-up that we're talking about earlier so this is the total tokens that the users accumulated and you see the breakout between okay when I've been interacting with the application which season partner with those tokens rewarded by let's jump out of this pick up an article this one's on the massive raise the revolute recently did so at the bottom I've got our action bar and you can show the indicators and the amount of tokens that your earn from these different actions once you complete the article you'll see this fill-in you can look to completely

article then we give our audience an opportunity to react so what they just saw so let's do that now hit that and you can see what other people are saying and then just like that if we're going to work straight like that we'll send some tokens from our reserve and you'll get some information about yep you earned un3 decrypt tokens and these would to you if you want to have a look in a bit more detail with our active season partner which in this case is Salesforce so you know what we're trying to do here is really like immerse the brand into our experience and align the brand with the reader in you know a way where the readers are really going to be excited by the intersection of the two finally let's say you've been using the app for

a little while new session you connect open up your wallet now I've got onion 30 tokens from the different actions up and performing you can have a look to see where you've earned these different tokens the actions you performed and the different brand partner for each of those I want to cash out that's as simple as opening up the rewards page great thing about STS you get these great vendors straight out the box that you just care about you can see your balance up here let's say I like travel now it's just three steps where do I live how much do I want the gift card value to be confirm my email address and then you'll see there's confirmation on the bottom with how many tokens you're gonna be debiting for this cash out option confirm that and that's it you

give a bit of information that 100 coins have been deficit and you should have this in your email inbox in the next 24 hours so obviously the transaction that is let's say to buy the Airbnb gift card is not currently on chain so what's happening here is one is another thing we're releasing today is the OST redemption store SDK so partners like decrypt can use our redemption options and through our SDK and they can also we can add other redemption partners into that the OST redemption store is a regulatory compliant store so that's available so we're able to offer apps like pepo and decrypt in the app stores today and to provide users with mean equal cash out options again going to

talking to users and find out what they need you find that for most people earning a couple hundred bucks a Amazon gift card Airbnb credit is as good as cash and you know it's very well appreciated so the actual transactions happening when the user buys that Airbnb gift card is their authorizing sending their tokens to decrypt and then decrypt is sending us a message to send the user a gift card which we're doing manually at this point and then decrypt is basically giving us money on the backend to pay for back for the gift card in the future we'll enable other options such as on train transactions for redemption as we expand the offering and as eventually even going all the way to the users bank account or to cash out the crypto cool that's it yes oh and

super great to be here and share a bit about what we're working on so if you want to get involved you want to test drive our app we're gonna be releasing this in early q2 we're excited about that coming out you can go to decrypt co4 slash app and sign up join ten hours and others that pre registered and then I mean for me walking around ECC it's been great to see the support that a lot of these companies have been able to give to the event and the broader community we really think that what we're kind of endeavouring to build out here with seasons is a novel opportunity a novel sponsorship opportunity the intersection of media and tokenization

and one where you know this brand can build credibility one where you know they can connect with the audience and that company is super on brand and front and center every time the users learning about the industry so more ways to get involved you'll notice inside of pipo that we have communities their channels for to gain subscribers to congregate videos around particular topics there's about 50 communities there today ranging from crypto topics to development to as I said Edinburg eath London ECC it's been great to see everyone here in Paris using pipo if you want to launch your own people community it's free and rewarding contact us as you saw decrypt doing you can launch your own app tokens

using our SDK we invite any application who wants to launch an in-app token using our smart contract wallets to get in touch with us and we'd be happy to figure out your use case and figure how to make a great UX for your users also create these win-win opportunities with sponsors advertisers like the Crypt is doing third as I mentioned we launched today the OST redemption SDK and if you want to provide your own products in the redemption store contact us we can redeem right now for anything that is a store of value so whether it's a gift card a credit and NFT contact us we'd be happy to enable your cash out options and then forth come tomorrow at 2:45

p.m. to bend Bolin's talk on mosaic which is a scaling solution which is basically how do we take all these transactions are happening on layer 2 and prove them back on layer 1 in a scalable manner very exciting topic I hope ever enjoys us tomorrow at 2:45 thank you again to James and the Crypt team for embracing the technology thank you to the Theorem community for embracing pepo and we'll just leave you with we'd love to have you join the community and add your voice and help further aetherium adoption and thank you all very much [Applause] do we have any questions any questions

one thanks for the presentation cool stuff guys thank you going question to Jason if it's possible for other aetherium projects to make use of your redemption story and question two James what is the value proposition for brands because I see quite clearly that you can do potentially efficient brand awareness campaigns are there any other objectives

that you see brands kind of fulfilling with with campaigns via the Crypt seasons so I'll take the first question on the redemption store SDK the answer is yes absolutely we would love to enable you know as many apps as possible to take advantage of this I think you know one of the things all of us as an industry sometimes I feel like we run too fast to the optimal solution versus thinking through a practical solution no knock on us because we're all dreamers but you know it's like the optimal solution would be we all can cash out effortlessly to aetherium to die or indirect money to our bank accounts and then the reality settles in of well if you wanted to cash out in a regulatory compliant manner you need to think about

things like closed loop or gift cards and things like that and we would love to get a network you know kind of a you know group of group of companies together projects all contributing to creating great redemption options so yeah well the SDK ibly you know released out and we'll invite up everyone to participate in it yes if I understood the question correctly it was clarification around the value proposition to brands so yeah I think obviously a common business model in media that sets podcasts is 7 so podcast is sponsored by X brand so what we really do is kind of build on top of that proposition I think

some of the more successful business models in media we're not very good at business models in media you know this kind of intersection of content and commerce or being able to seamlessly integrate a brand into a content experience in a way which is additive to what the users experiencing and doesn't detract from the user experience like you know slapping a load of banner ads and interstitials over a website so the brand's getting really into even in that experience where they are definitely seen as part of that experiences their brand is rewarding the reader for understanding about the space for interacting with it with with the content and you know and they're kind of

very much integrated and get exposure to you know this this captive audience anyone else okay thank you all very much really appreciate it thank you [Applause] right