James Zaki / DCxPrague

Transcript

all right yeah so I chose a bit of a fun title just so it can uh yeah get people in the room and uh yeah I'm looking at what I'm saying is a negative space outside of defi but it's to bring um bring focus on applications that are uh yeah outside of defi like to consider who benefits um and who builds and um yeah what is the the tooling we can look at to inform and um and encourage uh yeah broader adoption or building of products towards broader adoption yeah so everyone yeah so the um yeah the goals of the talk is to sort of ideate around um applications outside of defi um I'm going to try to avoid reading too much but yeah sort of who builds who benefits and uh yeah what can companies readily build who are outside

of web 3 what how can they readily benefit from what web3 brings I I am using web 3 a little broadly so um yes just decentralized Technologies is is maybe part of that um and then what tooling yeah sorry I already discussed that so the format will be like a workshop so uh I I'll start off with some context about who I am and and what else I do um we'll discuss a little bit around web 3 standards specifically smart account standards and wallet standards and and how that has progressed over time and um yeah what is the meaning if any to to sort of web to people and then we'll sort of make it a bit more interactive with um exploring and communicating the yeah web 3 benefits in web two terms um so that's just a a bit of a challenge I give to

myself but also like people to sort of think try to like think that way as well outside of defi what else there is so yeah uh with a trailing bullet point that's interesting um yeah so how did how I got into web 3 um so my background is in mechatronic engineering and I studied that with computer science um back over 20 years ago now and I've been um worked on embedded systems um and then app development and so with app development it's about sort of moving fast um building uh Innovative products that tend to Target a specific um yeah a consumer or a specific um segment or with the technology so people who have smartphones then people were just building a lot of apps on top of them to do things and this is when that first

came out 200 uh 2008 um yeah or 20 2011 I think was when I was really into it and yes so then I um basically uh the odd story is that through someone at choir like a community choir I was in mentioned ethereum and I didn't know what it was and so thanks to that random cross pollination I found out about ethereum and fell down the rabbit hole so it wasn't through a tech group it was literally just a a hobby and then I found um this guy called boky found his workshops every week he was doing these um ethereum workshops they were Technical and they really really cool um they've covered a lot of topics since I don't know 2017 when they started so this is just a few of them you know co- togethers I used to run um people would

talk about specific topics but I really like the Cadence of those workshops and that there was this regularity of people getting together talking Tech on ethereum I moved to London over a year ago didn't find the same thing I found a lot of networking events there were weekly like Monday Tuesday there were these weekly events that were on and they felt more networking than Technical and so I then started these and since then uh we're on number yeah Workshop 49 so the next one will be our 50th Workshop which I do every week just outside of work I just sort of hold space for technical conversations where we talk product and um Dev workshops so there three themes there L yeah I will at the end there's a link to that and I'll put into than but um to begin with

yeah that's um so during the bare Market I'm still going every week all the other ones are now less than weekly if they're still around so you know Builders build during the bare market and and this is no exception to that so yeah from that I'm what what I'm always um doing with my work in development and then in these conversations is to say well how do we get broader adoption like we know it's cool we know the text cool but how can we convey that to a product person um but we we do start with The Primitives first like some of the standards um and yeah just to say this is a bit of an open format so it will be a bit conversational and so if someone does ask something I'll try to repeat it um in the mic for the for the um for the

recording so yeah prepare to participate you know feel free to ask questions and and answer questions if they come up with your peers so just to warm up um what is an EIP versus an ERC who who's familiar with like quick one liner ERC versus EIP consensus or yep I'm just going to run around oh what was that it's consensus or not uh whether it's consensus or not well um does anyone else have another answer uh well actually the the the difference I've understood and now I'm going to question myself um is that an EIP is more around the um well yeah EIP stands for ethereum improvement proposal EIC is ethereum request for comment but

I think the de facto way they're being used is that EIP ends up being a protocol change or not and an ERC is generally at the Smart contract layer so we'll dig into a few of uh those so let's start with um EAS it's it looks something like this it's a very simple diagram but um you have this uh signed message like in generally an ecdsa um signature um and that's at the protocol level you submit ass signed transaction or a message to into a mol the nodes pick that up and um and process your transaction some standards around that which was these were a couple of um standards outside um 2018 but the first

part is just like the wallet API is um around um yeah ethereum signed message and having the output of that is the um um to verify that the EA has signed that message and is doing that transaction um you've got 712 who's sort of familiar with where maybe where 712 has been used or 1271 specifically so the 712 is around structured type data and and you know having a standard for how that's structured it um 1271 is around having smart contracts being able to verify data so if it's an EA you sign a message offchain someone else can verify that offchain with a smart contract there isn't a private key there so you can't

exactly have a smart contract sign something so the uh what you have to do there is um implement this standard function to say if I receive a signed message does this smart contract say that that is valid according to it so if it's a smart contract account or a smart contract wallet as it was previously called um that's a way of it signaling that it has approved this signed message um so these are just a couple of small technical things that have been around since 2018 or at least the standards were proposed then but adoption has been a bit um I guess delayed there there is a newer push towards that now but um yeah so yeah where have these been adopted does anyone have uh specific examples they know that uh some examples of where

either of these have been used gas transactions yep exactly meta transactions or gasless transactions yep that's a good one that's the main one uh yeah okay we'll continue then um some other standards more recently um ERC 4337 has gained a lot of attention because it basically brought a lot of wallet developers and and others building and and wanting smart contract accounts um to be singing from the same Hy sheet so to speak so 437 has been a standard of that um I did want to refer to yav who's I think outside um but he can see in the recording um my question for him um and then 6900 is is another standard around um modular um what do

they call it modular smart contract accounts and plugins is is the title and so uh yeah that's also around starting from 4 through 7 but I think 6900 will be outside of that so just just referring to you so 4337 is one of those standards um so when we look at these newer standards and we see what it's trying to achieve it's like you know no presentation will be complete without a meme but you know this thing it's like a smart contract wallet we've seen it before is is this account abstraction but again the the great thing that 437 did was brought everyone together to be talking around the same thing rather than implementing their own like safe had their smart contract wallets in in the past but that did something specific um this is it more

generic so yeah um smart accounts and and onchain account abstraction so this is um you have the verification logic of someone's account that is at the Smart contract layer not at the protocol layer so before when we saw the diagram it was a signature that's goes to a mempool that is um the yeah that's the protocol layer here it's a smart contract layer so um it's just effectively becomes another light a simplification of this so a um you have a user operation rather than a regular message so user operation is is is a structure that is signed by or it is um I guess um validated with some mechanism it could be a signature like an ecdsa

key it could be some other scheme it could be a zero knowledge proof some means of saying that this smart account has authorized this user operation and how it's executed is also uh subject to the wallet so there's some more flexibility in in that um it also has a mle and instead of um say miners or what or um it has bundlers um and those bundlers will effectively submit a transaction containing many signed user operations um to the uh blockchain that could be a layer one but um pragmatically it's probably going to be a lot of layer twos I I think um we'll do this um but like the beginning the smart contract wallets as they were called ear or smart

accounts today there is a little bit of a barrier to um to their deployment can anyone suggest what that barrier might be for a a business or for a for a team y any others very simple y yeah so those two reasons just yeah yeah so for the recording that was we had gas um which I guess translates to cost and we also had um complexity which doubles up yeah key management which touches on and oh yeah so what I try to do is sort of abstract a little bit to say there are these specific

things we we articulate but really when a non-web through person looks at it it's going to look like complexity and look like cost that's that's effectively what we're dealing with so this really was a problem to its um deployment but to explain maybe a little detail of maybe another question to the audience um what problem does 4337 seek to solve anyone maybe I'll pass the mic anyone uh well well well as the author of 437 yeah so um it seeks to solve the it seeks to solve account obstruction in a decentralized way it's I mean we had

smart accounts before uh for for many years the problem is that in order to access them you need to also o keep an eoa with a key which means that which negates the value of account obstruction otherwise you have no way to transact so in order to solve this problem other protocols needed to uh so other smart accounts ER just kept centralized relays where the relay would send a transaction uh the transaction on your behalf which means that they can also censor you and uh that there's a it becomes a centralized solution so 437 is a is a decentralization solution for that that cool thanks you all cheers Round of Applause oh did you want to add something yeah yeah can I H yeah yeah

ask a question though uh yeah go for or afterwards um no question answer okay than good all right so since it's native um I just want you to know what are the tradeoffs that you can currently see when it comes to just operate that way I mean yeah that's basically it okay well we might save that one for us actually maybe you yeah you can ask your directly after but um yeah no good good question no thank you of um and so yeah so that's what that solves and again that's a complexity we can appreciate or or or begin to appreciate by you know digging more into this and understanding it and saying oh yeah that is a problem this is a great solution and then all wallets can agree to build upon this but um again there's just some um uh both complexity and costs involved in in um

non web3 people considering this investment upfront so for each user they'll have to deploy a a smart contract so that comes with a cost so there are some things that can mitigate this cost or defer the payment of deployment um in different ways so with the 1271 um yeah sorry if that's a bit small uh with 1271 uh contract signature validation there is um 64 ERC 6492 which is the means of sort of U being able to verify that a smart contract will approve a signed message without needing to deploy the contract first so I can sign something offchain and say this is valid for for my smart account which may not be deployed yet and then I can say

here you can verify this that my account that will be here will um authorize this uh sorry will find this valid and you can check that um again with a static call or something like that that yeah that needed to pay to deploy the contract onchain right away um and same with 4337 you have a means of um because if you ask every user to sign up like and this was argent's problem I believe at the peak kind of Bull Run you tell someone here's your smart contract wallet it's got guardians it's the best thing um just spend $50 in gas to deploy it like you can't get a new user that way you can't ask him to spend $50 for a tool that they don't know what it's going to be good for necessarily unless they've really done the homework themselves and then realize the benefit

but even then it's still $50 to to what was a new a new thing um similarly with smart accounts if there's a way of deferring the cost of deployment to the user's first action that's very pragmatic so with app um app permissions is another Paradigm I find um useful for this when you ask a user to um you know I'm an app and I want to have access to your contacts you can't just pop that at the beginning anymore in the early days of app development that was okay where you could just do that but now it's uh you really have to be polite about showing the benefit of why the contacts will help and then request permission to access the contact uh contacts then um similarly for deployment I just feel it's something you need to really gain

the users's um momentum if you will or motiv ation first before prompting them to say hey you're going to have to spend to deploy this or have a means for the DAP itself to absorb that cost for the user so I'm sort of trying to get us to think from the point of view of a um I guess as a business um you know Web Two company to say well how are they going to look at this they're just going to see costs and complexity and and maybe struggle to see the benefits so let's um look at uh yeah the modu verification piece um we spoke ecdsa signatures which is what's used at the protocol level but we can unlock uh that's not really so big um so it's uh yeah one of the things we can do is use

BLS signatures this is something we've integrated in the past um project but now again in in wax so this is wax. P.D is the project I'm working on um within the ethereum foundation the um Pass Key validation is another piece that's come from I think Ledger did implementation so we've integrated that into um uh 4 37 account um we've got a a prototype of of using recovery so that's just using ecdsa but you could do recovery with other mechanisms like any other mechanism so we go further down we look at um the last one is email validation so there there's a team that's called ZK email that has worked on um the ability to generate a proof

that you've received certain information in an email and that proof can be used to authorize transactions so that's a perfect one for recovery risky depending on how well you manage your email but you you can protect it with time delays so there's these things you can do to make it more accessible with things like um more general purpose validation um mechanisms so I'm just going to have to keep sipping my water but yeah that's within the PSC yeah so so within the privacy and scaling Explorations group in e f there's a lot of little projects and and V was was talking about her project before or the project she's in um this

is Wallet account experiments I specifically chose it so it says wax but smart account experiments may be a more correct term but saxophone is not as not as you know uh so yeah that that's sort of what we're doing um but again I like to sort of try take a step up and then try surface um the capabilities in a non web3 language so this is the challenge here um yes so what does uh web3 bring to non web3 entrepreneurs and product people and um we'll go into one example but generally it has to be an efficiency gain like for them to bother to look at it they it has to provide them with something so it's always somewhat transactional for a business to

say look at this new complex Tech here's why it's worth your while it either is going to give you some efficiency maybe a cost reduction cost savings um a competitive Advantage maybe it opens up a new market so some something like that would be would at least get your foot in the door and have them actually listen to to what you know um web 3 has to offer um it could be around a new market it could be about user retention so there could be some argument that by having users having their own self- Sovereign thing that you connect with it's got maybe stronger user attention but um and yeah cost offset so yeah any investment that the company does has to be offset by the benefits they're going

to get and then some so they have to really yeah have to really make it worth their while so let's look at decentralized storage um ipfs guy at the front and uh yeah how could we sort of communicate that as a benefit for a business and um I'm not sure if I discussed it with someone last night but it could be seen as self- Sovereign um storage outside of Amazon so I'm trying to just find other ways and if anyone's got other ideas of how you might frame say you know decentralized storage in general um do do we have another mic to go around is there a second microphone oh down here yeah we just pass it down the back is that right just to the back behind oh there we go thank you thank you yeah um just a quick uh

some quick points on the previous one that you've mentioned uh coming not from technical background but more from product um our project is uh like now Bridging the web 2 travel into web 3 on a quite big scale and uh we have a lot of conversations on what's going on on the business side and one of the things that people from real businesses who run businesses every day and care about the revenue they need to know that if they plug into this web 3 thing the web two continues to work yeah that's one of the things going beyond the the ones that you've mentioned about retention the revenue because they want to try the system first to see if it's valid and then the second one is of course uh the

who who is going to create and work and build for for them exactly these are that's uh I would highlight because this this comes from practice Yeah that's really good so that this is um yeah you can hang on to the mic there we'll pass around um but yeah that's sort of validation for this um conversation that I feel wouldn't hurt for us to be more exposed to to know what our web2 business is asking and it sounds like if they're running their business from uh the web to technology they have of course they don't want to just drop and then pick up everything on web 3 the progressive decentralization model has been discussed a lot and and I definitely like and I think it's actually my end point around what would be a capability that you bring into an existing web2 business so it's not to

say that they are going to replace everything they do but it's just to say look you're doing something already how can this supplement your offering how can it augment what you're doing give you a competitive advantage or whatever um yeah no really good points um so say smart contracts and I think a couple of us mentioned this at lunch the that you know it could be called like delayed actions because you can program that like just tell someone hey it's a smart contract you can do anything it's too fuzzy it's too vague we need sort of concrete things to tell people and escrow is obviously an easy one that that people refer to um yeah peer-to-peer money time agreements is's another one um how I how am I for time got another half hour was it I thought it was 55 minutes on the

thing we're going to skip really quickly through this next session now no you're good you're good if if I got to wrap up soon I can do that and we'll continue the conversation after so yeah this is just let's just call this seed in your mind for this conversation and then have this conversation with whomever you want out there so so this is like permission to to talk web 2 um capabilities with a web 3 mindset anyway okay we do okay when you're looking up at me I'm like uh um that's cool that's cool thank you it's not personal yeah yeah no okay so yeah Let's uh cool down again I'm not rushing anymore so do I have that up there what have we got it's showing

there oh there we go yeah so maybe are there any now I can chill a bit so what um other examples with smart contracts might people think about like what's something we could say that a smart contract brings in a concrete example for for someone I mean apart from tokens or something like I think yep we'll bring the mic back here yeah thanks thank you uh globally visible proof of agreement nice yep so that's having like a yeah normally for something like escro as I understand it you have like a trusted third party and that's often the way we I explain web 3 to people is to say look in lie of a trusted third party

we can um have this thing that that's that's verifiable that's independent of any single um entity and um and what was the one you just said sorry it was the uh I'll just repeat it here sorry globally globally visible proof of agreement yeah globally visible proof of agreement so you know if you and I say to our customers we've just agreed a deal for $20 million over six weeks Y and it'll be made at you know 30 grand a day as a payment we can point to the smart contract and show the funds which are locked in the smart contract we can show the payment schedule and everybody understands that money is going to move over the next X weeks this much will be paid every day and there's the proof and nobody can change yeah and if I miss

something that's recorded to say that the money didn't move from me to the to the to the next payment exactly yeah so that's that's a good one so it's something that's um an auditable verifiable record that is independent of any one thing you don't depend on Amazon for that you don't depend on someone providing a service that you've got to pay and risk database loss or anything like that of course there's a lot of redundancies but yeah doing it into decentralized way has its benefits um does any anyone else had any other thoughts of examples uh sometimes proof of ownership for yeah for instance nfts and that kind of stuff can not only be used for jpex which is nice but can also be used for uh like proving that you are the owner of a real

life asset a house or something like that yeah so that that's a common example is the ownership one so starting from owning ethers to owning a token um the ownership uh example is is a very common one like the way it started with esc20 721 now um um that that's something I just it was a talk that kind of um from Ox Park that stood out to me it was just one of their one of their evening events where they said even yeah the token model is still about ownership it's not about say gaming or interaction it is just about the um the ownerships but but definitely that's a strong case yep yeah um I mean I feel like like ens has had pretty strong you know pull from from Smart

contracts just as a way to assert mutability without without delegating out to an entity that you may not control yeah right so sort of it's it's a it's a it's it's less self- Sovereign than just a public key but it has better longevity than just the public key right ex yeah that's a good one so that's another attribute I think I have on the next slide um ah do I have it on the next one no let's start there um but yeah there is that that idea of vity outside of the company so that's something I like to think of as well to say doesn't mean anything for a particular business to say hey your customers can have a piece of what your product is gaming is an easier example

to think of and and ownership in that case to say your game created an asset for this person now that asset exists outside of the game is that a plus Sor I'm losing my voice yeah so is that a plus for them that they can um have it outside of the company because for some businesses they might say well well actually why would I allow my users like a lot of companies today like the wal Garden approach that they want to keep their customers they want to say anything you you get from within this app stays within this app so it's a difficult sell to tell them why having an asset outside of uh their servers is a plus um but I think that's something that can be won with um framing of maybe interoperability to say this token that

you created will be recognized it's it's verifiable on chain that it started here but now you've got a lot of fan games using your axe for for other reasons you know there's some examples there don't know if anyone wants to tease that out anymore I mean there are there are some trade-offs where when you I guess choose to engage in like a more homogenized space right it's supposed to be better for users because they'll be able to have more choices and the same can be true for businesses if you believe if you believe that your business is better than what else is out there then you should be be winning right that's and so it's sort of to sort of like hide in your Walled Garden is to say like you don't believe

that you can win yeah which is sort of a I think that's a good a good point to lean into that that um if you were so confident of your offering you could open source and know you're going to deliver it the best I mean that's open source but um you could say look we know we're delivering a superior product and and that assets are created here if someone were to do a clone and use that asset in their own game it wouldn't compete with our like that's that's quite a confident stance for a company to be in but I guess where it might be difficult is in a new domain for a company so if a company's established in what they do they're used to protecting it's just hard to change that so yeah any ways just to think of and again carry this for conversations after like

how to communicate to people that there's a benefit here with opening up a little bit so one one way I look at it is similar to similar to reserve currencies I mean does the US gain or lose from the dollar being used as the world Reserve currency it's I mean let's say it was only accepted in the US and they say and the US would not honor would not honor any obligations that happen outside the US so there would be a different Reserve currency in the world just wouldn't and the US would lose this power so I think a company that issues a that issues something that becomes very popular due to its own platform and then it's used by other platforms it makes them more powerful not less yep and that's a

really good analogy then to say as a business Maybe not to think of you know assets within the company and and exclusive locks think of building the best ecosystem thing um and again I I can just see it from both sides I know that's a hard sell for some businesses um this maybe is more on the um privacy side of things in blockchain but um there are a lot of areas where um parties can have a lot of mutual benefit of sharing information but without um really sharing it right uh maybe because they can't from a regulatory perspective or because they don't want to from a business perspective yeah now that's a good one yeah so I said there um like this is

touching towards the second part of your point there that it's um easier compliance with data privacy because you don't necessarily need to store everyone's personally identifiable information Healthcare I mean a like health is a good one so so I think yeah this is an example really losing my voice it's an example I think about a lot to say consumers are so used to giving their data away right we just expect that we're going to use a service for free We complain if it's not free yet we kind of have become like okay with with giving away a lot of valuable data I think the moment data is sort of monetized back to the user where if I had a service so again thinking just as a product point of view if me as a consumer could submit like an obfuscation of my data

let's not call it hashing let's not call it just say an obfuscation of my data and I can get money for that obfuscation because it's verifiable like with zero knowledge proofs and whatnot under the hood awesome I think that's going to pull people to say what you just gave them your your your previous heart rate history for the last month and you got this much money and then if you get I've got a year worth of course I'm going to sell it like it's just an immediate like I think that's a will create Mark pull from consumers for something like that um but again it's it's it's the accuracy of it that that it might be a bit difficult yeah yeah I mean I think uh from thinking about it from the consumer perspective it's right but also just from the business perspective there are

a lot of places where um companies sharing cyber security information right like they wouldn't want to share it because there are a lot of reasons why they wouldn't want to share it but they want to have the benefit of having this shared pool of data yeah that everyone can benefit from that's that's a good one and in a sense you ask which part of I might ask which part of web 3 that is I'm saying that's more maybe on the Privacy area like it's like maybe a more newly explored part of but I think um and that's why I do bucket web 3 to include stuff like that because it it brings our attention to it yeah I mean this gets into the all the concept on differential privacy you know so you know there's a whole bunch of work on things like translucent databases where

you can get things like the average statistics are accurate but every single data point has been randomized a little you know you can cluster you could do statistically as accurate cluster analysis but no single piece of identifiable information hasn't been screwed with everybody's house has been moved 200 MERS in a random Direction you can't identify anybody and all this stuff goes back you know 20 years ago something like that so the idea that you could take these kind of Primitives put them into web 3 and then build them into ecosystems is there but I also thought the promise of web 3 was that we would make people pay for things again so that they were in charge yep and the idea that we're going to use differential privacy type technology snarks as a way of

maintaining surveillance capitalism but now surveillance capitalism with the Privacy layer like I'm not sure that gets us the world that we want specifically because we don't know what progress will be made further down the line in Breaking that privacy yeah so if the data if the data never left your computer you have a very strong reason to believe that in future that data will not be more widely available but if the data has ever left your machine yeah the average lifespan of a cryptographic algorithm is only 20 years oh right you you even Quantum proof ones coming yeah I mean we've got we can't we can't talk about the future yeah but in the past algorithms have about a 20-year lifespan

interesting so if we continue to have a 20-year lifespan you got to say okay what data about your life from the year 2000 is potentially damaging today and that's everything you put on the internet in high school yeah so I think that's yeah you know I just want to raise this thing of like if we want the blockchain to be about privacy actually getting people to pay for services with money rather than for data is one of the first ways of getting that privacy y yeah no that's a good one yeah I think just to give a little fun fact about um when I was in uni doing mechatronics the um what I learned about GPS was that it wouldn't return your accurate coordinates immediately it I forget what it was called I um it was a

long time ago but um it would give you a randomized coordinate within a certain radius of where you actually were so the satellite knew where you were but it would only give you um whatever um time period um a point that was like within 100 m of where you were um obviously over time you could just sit there and average it out if you didn't move for that duration you'd then get a a more accurate um understanding of where you were but um yeah but that was one way that was done yeah I think that's why I maybe went more into the actual uh I mean we maybe diving too deep into like the Privacy side of things but I think I totally agree with you by the way and I think that um running computation over encrypted data where you run the

computation of your encrypted data but you don't submit it to the blockchain right and you pay for it that's like the way to think about blockchain privacy and then also the model that runs the computation isn't owned by anyone right it's owned by the blockchain um so I think that's kind of where I was going to with this excellent no thanks and yeah so just to I I know we're getting closer to time um and just to cover a few things at the end so um yeah I sort of frame it as like you know build Bridges cross less complex divides meaning um like a lot of us will be looking inside the tech and looking specifically what we're building which we should be but it's often um a refreshing to sort of look upwards and say okay well who's using this and where like how do we more

readily bring this to people and does it hurt to be um uh somewhat opinionated in the sdks we create so that's something I'm exploring within wax to say look would it make sense to create a higher level SDK that that speaks in sort of web two terms to say create account reset password and just that terminology might be there and under the hood it could be web 3 but you know maybe pros and cons for that I don't know if anyone's got thoughts on that but I think uh I mean first of all I would invite everyone here to come to my talk tomorrow because I'm talking about some of those things as well what we're building um but um yeah I think web 3 has to be boring and until it it will become boring it will never be um uh you know adopted in a general like that that

won't happen so yeah under the hood it can have whatever Cool Tech that everyone is super excited about in these types of conferences but it should be boring like so another way to phrase is like cognitive onramps like we've got to like really make it easy at first and then bring people up to where the the complexity you talk about um yeah so to enable yeah non web 3 natives to immediately grock the benefits like what would be an elevator pitch for say some specific uh capability that we're talking about and in web 3 quote including privacy and and these these things um so yeah like you know how how this is just a thought exercise like how would you communicate to a cafe owner the benefit of a token like you you could relate it to like a Rewards Card

like a coffee Rewards Card you say actually it's like a reward card that the customers who get a coffee from you can actually get a coffee from others in your neighborhood as well and somehow say that's a benefit like you know there's some interesting things you could try play with say it's a trust a way you can verify a token that exists outside of just one coffee store yeah Vin well so I mean on this right the there's a thing called the Norwegian rule right and the Norwegian rule is that everything which is fun is either fattening or immoral right and so most of the web three use cases that are potentially really useful in the real world are simply illegal you know I open a cafe I pre-sell three years worth of coffee tokens people buy the coffee

tokens at a 20% discount they cash them in and you know my cost of servicing the coffee token is my wholesale cost their benefit from getting the coffee coffee token is the retail cost so my cost of capital is a third of what it would be if I borrowed from bank right customer wins I win Bank loses everything's great techn $250,000 worth of legal costs to get that to work so interesting um yeah so this notion that we are in a position where the most interesting use cases are the ones which are in the most heavily regulated areas shouldn't surprise us right people have been talking about the great blockchain Uber Revolution for years oh all the Uber really does is you

know matching drivers no no most of what Uber does is it deals with right and the resolution dispute resolution you know uh large big data models for trying to pick out art you know drivers that are likely to be bad drivers Market manipulation outright bribery in some markets there's a whole bunch of stuff that they've done to get the regulatory exceptions to get it through and um you know the I guess the thing that I want to drive out here is we kind of have to decide whether we're going through that stuff with a bulldozer uh which is where all the network State stuff comes in you just set up jurisdictions where you can do blockchain Uber you can do blockchain fundraising you run new land under new

law and you do it in special economic zones which was the conference that came from in Amsterdam or we look for edge cases where we have markets which just totally don't exist and don't work and we try and set up new stuff there and that is essentially the nft markets um but I kind of feel like we're in a bit of a crisis condition because both of those doors seem to be very hard to get through right now yeah yeah um new property has mostly turned out to be worthless everybody that bought nfts in Virtual real estate has lost their shirt and at the same time we're making slower progress and hoped on getting the necessary Financial regulation stuff through to do this stuff in the real world and that leaves the network St which I think are going to take 10 years before they get anywhere so I'm kind of

yeah you know I have a feeling that if we're asking where's the magic we kind of have those three categories to work with and I don't know which door to force and and I think yeah I think experimentation will be part of that like Discovery um that if it is an existing business you've got some uh web to entrepreneur who's already got their startup they've already got their their business they're doing something solving some problem but then we just want to augment and complement their offering we let them add another piece to it and hope if they've already got some appropriate legal things in place that they will just you know shoehorn it in well put it incorrectly into what they're already familiar with and so that that's that's maybe the the other um way I'll just Skip Along to this um yeah so so there may be the I think I

mentioned this before that there's obviously the ideal we'll look towards to it be like purely decentralized and everything's um you know fully decentralized to the nth degree and that's what everyone should do that's obviously maybe not realistic to to begin with except if you know you're serving the web three community and so the opinionated semi-trusted components um uh yeah just a way of perhaps being a pragmatic stepping stone um I just found it interesting when um uh yeah I forgot his name now had mentioned how he got the venue it was um coincidentally through someone who knew him from the previous uh venue with eth Prague where they ran that and it again it just makes you us think that in this sort of trustless space um we're really still rely heavily on trusted

relationships and history so again going back to maybe the verifiable onchain um proofs of things like I think there was something to be said around just attesting to the past so attestations I think are really really important um yeah so that's there um but yeah so I just consider that a bit of food for thought and um feel free to continue these conversations I think there's 15 minutes left of this talk but there on the left is the workshops that I do outside of work and that's what I do at most of my work so yeah thanks everyone [Applause] yeah given we have some time any concluding comments or talks oh we'll get the photo that or a scan these are the weekly workshops if you want to grab

that they're based in London but I do London oh perfect yeah and and but we do um dial people in so it's um yeah it's an events page it's got a lot of um events and uh yeah the 50th I hope to make it a little bit bigger so I might have to do like 49.1 49.2 before I plan the 50th so we'll we'll uh yeah make the 50th a big one um yeah any other thoughts and questions I will pass the mic along please thank you first of all thank you very much for this conversation and uh different points of view uh I just wanted to say that like you you mentioned like these three angles that we should be looking at and you you you see it as like you

know we're stuck a bit like where to go um I come from as I mentioned from the travel web 2 web 3 space where we have we have like 160 different brands already like looking at web 3 connectivity because they look like how to connect between themselves because travel is super fragmented and there are a lot of intermediaries right and they deal with tokens right you have your QR code on your phone this is like a digital asset right so like it's digital super super Global but super fragmented there are like companies like Hotel plan might have around 100 apis to run one API can be 0,000 per year so like you can calculate how much money is spend

just like you know to send data get data so what we are doing right now like we build this like I'm not going to Shield or name the names like if you are interested like you can ask but like we build the connectivity between the travel Partners this is a Consortium and uh what they have now they have connectivity and now we are building the messenger so the companies can peer-to-peer connect to each other and send the data exactly what you you've mentioned about uh like not shiing the data of companies to others but between ourselves because we agree that we we we know each other we are compliant and so and so on so forth so that's the way we tackle this Web Two web 3 shift in uh in

our so say how how Community like web 3 web two travel so that's a very important uh conversation and I just like want to thank you very much and uh I will forward the the QR codes to All de excellent thank you yeah any other follow-ups concluding thoughts I mean I've always AF go in trouble um so you know this question of what does the next economy look like right you know ethereum has always had the story of like building the next economy next economy and what we've discovered is that for the most part the next economy looks like fraud right 19 the last economy as well well maybe maybe right

but probably 90 95% 99% of the transactions done on ethereum since 2015 have been fraud right and that should horrify us right so when we start looking at these kind of Technologies and we say how do we get this stuff into the real world the core promise that ethereum made was fraud-free right 2015 if you got all the marketing all the pr all the prop propanda a fair amount of which I wrote everything is about trustless meaning you can do the transaction you don't have to trust the counterparty no you do the transaction you can't trust the counterparty which is what trustless has come to me in practice so I think that there is a root problem here which is the brand guarantee of ethereum should have been fraud proofing not trustless

right so then we come back to this adoption question right so what I think that people want from the wallet infrastructure is 100% hard proof of who they're transacting with and if that person screws them 100% accountability right which suggests that we start looking at things like identity asro we look at people vouching we look at ways of binding a key to a set of social proofs because I think that the missing ingredient here is not privacy it's accountability that's good yeah and I think just jumping back to the get in front of the mic um yeah jumping back to the previous talk around um you know civil resistance and whatnot there's ways of saying that this is a

genuine person and they can provide a proof that they are within a certain group but not have to reveal in the transaction who specifically they are but it would nice to then have also uh similar mechanisms for defense to say actually if a legitimate claim there is some uh let's say hypothetically like the conversation we literally had at lunch um that there is a a contract going between two people perhaps different countries and you want to have a trusted third party that has the mechanism to revoke or or um correct a mistake that was made or or an error um so if someone tries to renig on a smart contract agreement that um maybe isn't fully codified there's just that gray area that allows an independent um Arbiter to to tilt the scales one way

and say actually this person who agreed to have um I'm not explain it well but basically you have yeah like yeah so so there's yeah so if there's just a repeat for the recording if there's like a rug pool that um someone can actually uh suffer consequences for doing that they're not just able to disappear create a new account and and wash the money away so I think you know not to get talk too much um political about uh s SPF or anything but you know having certain people doing the wrong things getting you know reprimanded for it whomever they may be um is is a good thing for the industry because it kind of cleans it up a bit uh but that's just maybe another stretch of conversation um I I think we've got 10

minutes to go so we may as well or 8 minutes so we'll just maybe wrap it up there and we'll feel free to Talk Amongst ourselves um thanks again everyone cheers