The Interchain Application Layer with Adair Kelley of Abstract

Transcript

cosmism is starting to grow I'd really like to see a new interchain Dow forming and specifically forming for public goods funding because I think this is one of the biggest problems that we've seen in Cosmos over the years is that projects that benefit multiple different chains don't always get funding you're going to be able to use km wasm as the ultimate control plane for any chain connected via IBC and this I think is going to explode the number of developers coming into uh coming into km wasm because you're not going to be able to build applications that control this much liquidity in any other smart contract platform or [Music] language welcome to the ENT op I'm here

today with ader Kelly he is the co-founder of abstract they're an interchain app platform and so we're going to be discussing lots of things today including km wasm the state of kmom what abstract is how it works and some of the Innovative things that the team is doing before we get started make sure to hit the like button and subscribe to get notified when new episodes drop I know I've been on a Hiatus for the last week we had a little bit of a break but we're back and we're going to be back doing regular episodes and if you like what we're doing please consider sticking with us we're validating on a handful of networks and also I want to point out that nebular Summit is happening on July 12th and 13th and tickets are now on sale early bir tickets are still

available you can get them for €39 nebula Summit is going to be the largest interchain modular app chain and Cosmos conference at ECC this year you can expect lots of technical talks developer workshops in-depth panels debates and also a VC track where you meet investors and get funded come to nebul Summit it's happening on July 12th and 13th and you can get your tickets at neb. Builders and Derek will you give a talk at nebul Summit will I of course I'm really excited for this year uh last year we had a lot of app developers come and attend so was great to get to know the community a little bit more and also you

know bring the message of interoperability and abstraction to to everyone in the interchain world so yeah yeah well looking forward to having you there um so you're currently in Berlin and you were just attending a km wasm hackathon um talk a little bit about you know what's been happening there in Berlin and your experience at the hackathon yeah absolutely so just last week we had Cosmos Berlin a cosmos get together uh right after dapc con and we also had the awesome wasm hackathon where all of the best kmom Builders got together and hacked on interch chain applications and this is a new narrative that's you know going around the cosmos

uh ecosystem now that IBC development is so much easier um in kmom contracts than writing IBC protocols at the native chain level so at this at this uh hackathon we saw a lot of developers build apps that actually controlled and spanned multiple different chains which is really exciting especially as this is the biggest value uh proposition of Cosmos um and now it's as easy as ever to write these apps so yeah good Builders good food uh and good Community right here in Berlin how many people were at the hackathon like building around 75 people attended in person and I know that there were around 220

signups uh ready to hack wow that's that's huge um like I mean I know you've been a lot of hackathons like in in terms of scale was it sort of on par with some of the other things you've seen before like larger small like yeah yeah in terms of the cosm lawm hackathons I'd say it's on par we have a relatively close-knit uh Community here uh in Cosmos and of course it's uh no comparison to the ethereum hackathons though in terms of uh development we saw a lot of a lot of innovation here instead of the same old projects being built again and again cool so what kind of like Innovative stuff did you see at the

hackathon yeah so as I mentioned we saw some interchain projects there were two tracks there there was Kira's compos which allowed for composing different Services together and then also Neutron's uh integrated applications track and of course one of the abstract interchain app bounties so in terms of applications we saw two interchain governance applications where multiple different chains uh connected via IBC would be able to come to consensus on proposals that were sent to those chains so for example uh our and Juno and neutron and kujira uh could all form an interchain Dow and any one of them could create proposals and uh their

communities could vote on those proposals proposed to the interchain Dow and I think this is going to create a lot more interchain alignment as I mentioned there were two projects building that uh there was also another project aimed at onboarding new users uh to Cosmos in a really fun way so this was uh rugs and candles uh and they had a bunch of different activities that users could do on multiple different chains uh with one chain which being Neutron orchestrating those activities for users to do that would be on kajira Neutron Archway osmosis any of the kmm enabled chains cool like I want to just maybe put a pin in that interchain Dow thing how does that work like what

orchestrates the votes yeah so actually this interchain uh governance was built built on top of abstract uh which is an interchain app platform but we also have onchain infrastructure that sits on multiple chains so the way that this worked is that uh at the base there's a state synchronization uh mechanism where one chain can propose a state change that being a proposal and that propagates the state change to the other chains uh and once that is synchronized the originating chain gets an acknowledgement back um and then they tell everyone hey the state is synchronized and now you can vote on this proposal um everyone votes individually they synchronize their

state to their other chains um and once the proposal has expired uh the votes are tallied and uh then the proposal is executed okay so there is no practically speaking like there is no sort of central orchestration mechanism the chains are reaching consensus together as if you had like a blockchain of chains for of sorts and yeah the funniest thing about this is that you could build a blockchain with this kind of application uh which we are calling a mesh application where there's not a central Hub because traditionally interchain applications have a hub and spoke model where there's one controller chain and multiple chains that listen to commands from that controller chain so I

I hope that we see a new wave of these applications of course the very first one of these being um mesh security which pioneered by um a couple kmm ogs in years past yeah no that's super cool and so this was all built using abstract yes uh so one of the projects did do a hub and spoke model and the second project uh was this mesh governance model okay nice and what were you working on at the haon mesh governance you okay so that was your project yeah my co-founder and I uh Robin um he and I built this mesh governance using abstracts new IB features making it really easy for

contracts to talk to one another across multiple chains and of course this doesn't um restrict you to just having one contract calling another one you can have one contract call this other contract that calls another contract on another chain um and so this allows you to create really interesting loops and mechanisms like this uh mesh consensus that we devised very cool yeah I mean and what's going to come out of this I mean are you going to like build this in as a product and Abstract like we're I realized we haven't really gotten into abstract yet but yeah yeah um I'd really like to see a new interchain Dow forming uh and specifically forming for public goods funding because I think this is

one of the biggest problems that we've seen in Cosmos over the years is that projects that benefit multiple different chains don't always get funding because every chain is trying to drive as much value as possible to itself to the application this is part of the app chain thesis so of course it makes sense though when you have infrastructure that spans multiple chains um the the chains themselves they only want to fund things that um Drive the value there so with with an interchain da uh the chains can vote on uh allocating funds to projects that may benefit multiple chains in the ecosystem and I hope this creates a new paradigm uh because the cosmos Hub and the AE quadratic funding program is still you know a centralized entity it's

still something pushed by the um you know Push by the cosmos Hub and maybe the cosm cosm wasm chains want to form some sort of a dow and vote on kmom tooling and yeah well with uh with the recent um shift or sort of Changing of the Guard at the uh at the ICF Foundation Council uh you know one could imagine maybe having that organization run by a dow of chains that utilize C Cosmos SDK technology IBC uh and that are directly impacted by uh its funding I mean it's it's an idea uh an interest

maybe an interesting thought experiment but um so yeah I'm curious like you're like really deep into cosm wasm I think like of everybody I know like um you're you're one of the sort of um most respected developers in the space and really uh you know pushing the boundaries of what is being done with kmm what's your sense of how kmm as a language as a community sort of as a pool of developers has been evolving since you came into Cosmos you know like two or three years ago I guess um yeah like what's the state of cosmism in your view state of cosmism is starting to grow uh and this is something like

really important like kind of a shift that we're seeing now that the tooling in kmm has caught up to that of ethereum and that of salana and other competing ecosystems well competing collaborative ecosystems uh I I'm seeing a lot more developers flow into into cosmism uh we've seen like a steady inflow of these developers on the cosmism website if you look at the adoption tab there's a lot more devs there's a lot more transaction there's a lot more apps uh and I think this is because of the being able to Leverage The Interchange comp uh capabilities of the cosmos ecosystem uh with new features coming in cosm 2.0 with IBC a little bit more deeply

integrated with better error messages developers are going to have an amazing experience meaning that they're going to be able to build apps faster which uh provides a Better Business case for building apps in cosm wasm additionally uh I think with projects like Union and polymer uh bringing IBC to uh to evm chains uh you're going to be able to use kmom as the ultimate control plane for any chain connected via IBC and this I think is going to explode the number of developers coming into uh coming into km wasm because you're not going to be able to build applications that control this much liquidity in any other smart contract platform or language uh so kumana is growing uh and right now uh we

actually have around 300 or so active developers in kmom uh and around 3,000 that have actively tried uh kmm and built an application in the past so yeah I mean I I'm not sure what the numbers are here but like if you compare that to like other alt VMS like the salana VM or the move VM like for instance I think like move is getting a huge uh boost this cycle with movement um you know sort of creating the modular move um narrative and ecosystem uh Salon VM is obviously like also on a tear because Salon is on tear uh Salon VM is being used also for you know other sort of

like non uh Sal L1 projects um and then there's like all the sort of parallel EVMS by SE and monad why is it that kmm hasn't sort of picked up in this old VM narrative as much as other ecosystems or like other VMS yeah it's a it's a great question and and the easy answer is that all of the users all of the tvl all of the applications are on ethereum they're on evm chains the the tooling is amazing it's incomparable to some of the other ecosystems um on salana you have a lot of hype you have all the users creating tokens there's a lot of activity in this ecosystem and this means that as a developer you have the most distribution

in these ecosystems if you build an app on ethereum you could bring that to the millions of users that are already on ethereum same with salana you publish an app and it's available uh in the backpack wallet and everyone using that wallet can see your app there and um start interacting with it in Cosmos we have a lot of these different app chains they all trying to again Drive value to themselves so there's not one audience that you're driving value or you're you're bringing your application to that you can distribute to um as an application developer I think the most important decision that you have to make is what chain do you appy on and as I mentioned it's always going to be

ethereum as a first choice unless you run into performance problems in which case it'll be an L2 the users are already there uh and what we have to do as cosmos is because we have this amazing technology and because we can Define new Innovative user experiences that they haven't seen before we need to unify the interchain we need to bring all of the users all in one place where they can use any of these apps regard regardless of that chain uh we should make it so that Cosmos um has the best onboarding experience of any ecosystem because we can we're not limited by the VM we're not limited by Innovation Cosmos hasn't seen it because there's no one pionering this

yet yeah know I think that's that makes sense so let's get into abstract what is abstract and what problem is it solving yeah so abstract is an interchain app platform uh for developers what this means is that you can build apps that work on every single chain in Cosmos you can build apps that control different chains in Cosmos um and you can build apps that are a automatically integrated with the dii protocols that are uh Primitives in this day and age so that's dexes that's lending markets oracles liquid staking tokens you build applications abstract of these protocols uh so using the abstract SDK uh we have a really easy to

use framework for building kmom apps somewhat similar to react uh versus typescript abstract SDK is a framework for cosmism app development that allows you to build them modularly where you put these different components together to form more complex Advanced applications and uh the core infrastructure here is the abstract account the abstract account is our smart contract wallet that you can extend with these modules um and more on that later as a user uh abstract is the one place where you can go discover and use applications on the interchain and one of the biggest qualms with uh you know users onboarding is having to know

what chain it is having to know how to pay uh gas fees and having to IBC your assets over abstract removes that need entirely uh using these abstract accounts um and this gives users one place to onboard to the inner chain um and use any application on any chain coming okay so so let's let's maybe like get into a practical example here like if if I'm an application developer let's say I want to build a new Dex on Neutron um at at which point do I start using abstract and what what things will abstract enable as I'm building this application versus if I was just

building it natively on Neutron yeah so abstract if you're building a new Dex uh you can integrate your Dex with the abstract Dex adapter and that means that anyone who's built an application on top of a DEX for example an autoc compounder or a DCA application or a portfolio rebalancing application would be able to use your dex's native liquidity uh I would say that dex's aren't necessarily the best app to be built on abstract uh those best apps are going to be ones that lever or that use the user users's assets perform strategies on them or that need to uh have outposts available on multiple different chains if you're a DEX looking to add outposts where users can trade your assets on any of the

chains connected via IBC then abstract is your best bet here um you can create these outposts using these abstract accounts which can control other abstract accounts over IBC all right so as a as a developer I can use the abstract account to essentially like have like an outpost account on another decks or on another chain and and then the user is like abstract sits sort of in between the user and um the applications on the other chains and it's performing actions for the user on that other chain so it's sort of like intermediating those actions with um sort of

abstracted uh level that makes it easy to interact with sort of similar types of applications on other chains right so like if you have say like a DEX on chain one and a DEX on chain two and those dexs may not have like the you know exact same contract calls to a developer like when you're using abstract you're just sort of making one function that is you know doing like a swap for instance and then abstract just knows how to do a swap on osmosis but also on astroport or whatever that's yeah yep yeah exactly so you build applications um with the you know using a DEX that has generic actions like swap or provide or withdraw liquidity um and

this will work on any decks uh in the cosmos ecosystem we're integrated with osmosis and Kira and astroport and Windex and astrov Vault and any new decks is really just a simple integration way uh so with uh your question on the abstract outposts like the abstract account outposts these work as uh smart contract wallets um that abstract away the complexities of interacting with IBC or creating transactions on external chains so I mentioned that the uh the abstract app platform allows you to interact with apps uh regardless of the the chain that they're on this is done through these abstract accounts so you have a home

chain uh let's say that that home chain is Neutron uh you can control apps on kujira uh so you're going to perform a swap on kujira what you do is you actually initiate that transaction through Neutron without your knowledge um and it goes and executes on kujira and gives you the result right back so it's an abstraction layer if you will hence the name got it so like how how does this scale though because I mean I guess like for things like dex's uh you know you you Integrations may be fairly simple but you know as different types of applications with you know different use cases whether those are like derivatives markets or social applications or gaming

or you know whatever type of use case people are building um abstract then needs to start building adapters for all these applications and you know if we're in example in a space where there's potentially like thousands and tens of thousands of apps like how do you how do you um deal with the level of complexity like all these applications yeah and that's where the abstract modules come in so these modules are developed using the abstract SDK that encapsulate certain functionality these modules are not only developed by abstract uh they can be published by any developer uh building these applications uh they claim a developer namespace let's say that

that's Seb 3.0 you publish a module under this namespace and it's available to developers building applications elsewhere so the scenario that you mentioned with there's the all these gaming and social and and defi applications is actually a perfect scenario because it means that um there's a lot of modules that are available for developers to put together to create new Innovative applications and this was the original thesis behind creating abstract is that years ago when you know Robin approached me with this idea it was to allow developers to collaborate in building applications uh because previously in Cosmos every developer is just just like the app chains they develop in silos they don't

communicate or collaborate with any other teams but with abstract modules you can just compose them and put them together uh and create this collaborative ecosystem that we need to grow um as cosmos and as the interchain okay so you you have sort of like a package manager or something like that it allows developers to push packages and yeah yes yeah this is part of the onchain infrastructure so uh it allows developers to publish these uh modules with versions um and uh dependencies to each of the chains and anyone who takes any application that takes a dependency on these um will be able to resolve the that code ID which is kind of like the

identifier for the actual onchain code um and use that directly in their application and something else that this enables that is really useful for developers is on Dynamic onchain up upgrades so let's say that you're building an autoc compounder and you want to add a new Dex your the Dex adapter is going to have an update and that update will be pushed on chain and then you can take that instance of the autoc compounder call update on it and it'll pull down that new version of the Dex adapter and swap it um dynamically so that you can get access to those new dexes or if there's a bug fix that is pushed uh you can pull that directly down into your application and upgrade that dynamically and we also have a

little bit of uh Protections in place for bad upgrades so let's say that you're trying to skip to a second major version uh abstracts infrastructure will ensure that the dependencies for that version are also installed fully compatible and make sure that your uh the know this onchain state transition goes smoothly otherwise it'll roll back right let's let's talk a little bit more about the the protections and the security so like you know if you look at like ethereum um contracts for example you know we have like the openland Zeppelin contracts uh these are tried and tested contracts that have been you know audited used by like thousands of

projects um and um are very like um carefully scrutinized for for bugs and vulnerabilities in the case of abstract how do applications know that the modules that are being published by just so you know for lack of a better word random developers are secure and are not going to jeopardize their users security yep yeah that's a really important question uh every abstract app so our our platform is a permissioned application platform so every one of the modules that gets uploaded needs to be approved uh and develop we have a

standard for developers to upload metadata for this applications uh with links to the audits uh to the name description and um details of the developers themselves we want to make sure that anyone using uh modules on the abstract platform uh can be assured that they're using something that has been audited and is secure um and so they don't get exposed to unnecessary risk right and and when you say they're uploaded like they're uploaded to all of the km wasm chains that support abstract or is there some sort of like centralized um orchestration mechanism for all these modules yeah currently it's every cosm

wasm chain uh that supports abstract and uh the check sums are verified between the chains so that we can uh assure devs that if they depend on uh an app on one chain they can get and they have the same version on another chain that they can be guaranteed at the same check sum between chains okay I mean this security um kind of process that you described do you think it's sufficient I mean because like as this scales um like one thing that stands out to me as potentially problematic is that you know people can publish modules there okay there's maybe like a link to some audit

uh but that requires some kind of human verification to check whether that audit is real uh for you know at the least and um and you know that that might be difficult to uh to scale if there's like lots of different applications being built there um and it I don't think it takes very like you know I think a targeted a targeted very targeted vulnerability you know with one very highly dependent application or an application that a lot of other apps depend on you know we've seen this with with like um kind of supply chain attacks in web 2 um yeah like how how do you how do you ensure

that supply chain attacks can't happen in abstract yeah of course we can't guarantee that this is never going to happen uh though there are two types of um two types of modules within abstract there are app modules which are per account per instance um and there's uh they have specific configurations per instance of the application and there's and the adapters are not migratable so if you have a a DEX adapter you actually get a static address that does not expose the migrate function which protects you from the publisher of that Dex adapter migrating it and kind of potentially rugging you of your liquidity um on the supply chain side we are looking to uh create a platform to

incentivize people to expose these vulnerabilities uh on test Nets or on testing environments uh by having like continuous hacka funds um and continuous bug bounties where if you expose a bug that might expose you know 100 million worth of liquidity then you get a very sizable Bounty for uh giving that uh bug report and uh exposing it additionally on the application side every app has a suspend function that is callable by uh the owner of that application so if there's a vulnerability that's published uh abstract can expose a uh a service that would automatically pause the applications that may be affected by one of these attacks this is something

that's very common in uh web 2 companies uh but it would of course be an opt-in Service uh as would for example automatic updates what about the deployment like how easily does that scale because so you know you you have to deploy these apps or these modules to you all the CM wasm chains and of which there could be many many right like um you know if you just think of like inisha for example uh inisha is a roll up as a service platform where CMW you know you can build cosm wasm apps there so potentially there's like lots of applications there and so every time a new application comes out you have to

deploy it to end chains like how easy is that uh we have this amazing tool called CW orchestrator that actually makes this easier than writing a bash script or easy easier than doing it any other way so CWB orchestrator is a chain agnostic kmm scripting testing and deployment tool so it supports a variety of environments whether it be uh CW multitest for unit testing or integration testing uh test tube for integration testing or live environments like the different chains or different test Nets or uh initia rollups and um we have a standard for uh publishing your modules off chain so the wums for your

published modules must be available in crates or they can be available in crates uh and essentially what this means is that when developers go to publish an application if the app is not existing on the Chain it will be uploaded and published automatically when your app is also published so uh and this scalability issue is uh of course true of any uh blockchain ecosystem we are hoping to kind of automate this so for key applications like the Dex adapters or the any of the defy adapters we want those to be continuously pushed to every one of the chains um and we'd also like to see uh applications leveraging the interchain capabilities

and actually having some of the logic be potentially on another chain that offloads the uh kind of the stress or the computational usage on the origin chain um and also uh kind of pushes the interchain thesis a little bit further okay so the we we've talked about the SDK the SDK is what allows you to build modules um like modules that interact with contracts on on on on abstract we've talked about the CW orchestrator which allows you to deploy contracts not only deploy but like test and do migrations and everything that's needed to ensure that contracts can be deployed to like a multitude of CM wasm chains

and applications uh we haven't talked about abstract JS I think um what's what is abstract JS yeah uh abstract JS is the front-end component to abstract that allows you to really easily interact with those modules that you you have published to the chain uh has Type generation capabilities uh powered by cosmology TS Cen it also gives you a lot of Handy hooks for interacting with your application whether that be querying state mutating state um or doing anything with the abstract accounts uh recently we've added a ton of IBC abstractions so that when you're interacting with an IBC application it's no different than interacting with an

application on one chain just like in the abstract SDK you as a developer shouldn't worry about the complexity of these Integrations you should just be building this application that works across multiple chains um and Abstract JS simplifies this as well um I think the second component to abstract JS or well not I think it is uh is the abstract API and this is an API that sits in front of the node for the chain that you're using uh and allows you really easy access to all the abstract accounts the modules abstract name Service uh for assets contracts and uh pools um as well as any of the components associated with abstract this

is fully selfhosted able it's fully open source uh and gives you very fast access to any of this data that you may need uh and it's integrated in abstract JS so which chains do you currently support yes uh I'm G to preface this with I may forget one of one or two chains uh in this list because there's a lot um currently it's any chain that supports kmm will support abstract uh we are infrastructure that sits on top of the chain um but currently we're deployed on Neutron osmosis uh kuira testnet um Juno Archway

Nibiru uh Zion uh roll kit testnet um and a couple other cosm wasm chains uh and I I know that we're on over 12 different chains and uh we're looking to become a default deployment for roll kit rollups uh with cosm wasm as well as Strange Love Ro chains uh with cosm wasm VMS enabled as well cool and um like how easy is it for you to integrate with new chains so you know like new cosm wasm chain goes up um and what's the process there do uh if it's a permissionless chain does governance need to interact

or intervene at all or can you guys just deploy their yeah so for any permissionless chain it's literally a 5 minute setup script um using CW orchestrator uh and the most intensive part is setting up the polytone channels for the IBC infrastructure what's a every abct heard this before yes so uh polyone is a wonderful onchain uh or it's a wonderful piece of onchain infrastructure that allows for uh an account a smart contract on one chain to control a smart contract in another all of abstracts IBC capabilities are built upon this and um this needs to be deployed on the chain

and channels need to be created between that chain and any of the other uh chains that that chain wishes to communicate with so for example if you're spinning up a new roll kit rollup you're probably going to want to connect with Neutron and osmosis um and that you create the channels between that new rollup and uh Neutron or and osmosis and uh you also have access to the rest of the abstract ecosystem if you will uh through multihop IBC okay uh and so I was looking at your website and there's like this module registry um like I'm just reading off so of the modules here like the DCA module

the ETF module um CW staking money market so what are these modules and like how are they being used by developers that's a great question so the the def modules that you mentioned the Dex module the CW staking module lending Market module uh those are abstract adapters and they currently support almost every dii protocol in Cosmos and those are leveraged by apps that you mentioned such as the DCA application or the um the portfolio application I think or the ETF application uh so these apps are abstract app modules that are um

available on any of the cosm wasm chains where abstract is uh and developers can leverage these to build more advanced applications so for example uh the ETF module you can combine that with the Dex module uh to allow for swaps and you can write a new module on top of this that would allow for setting weights of the asset asss in the ETF um and this really highlights uh module composability uh and um anytime that the ETF is um used by the the balancer application like this Auto balancing weights uh it will be like readily available I suppose okay and how do you send email over IBC

there's a there's an IBC mail client that I'm curious about yeah so IBC mail uh is something that we did for the Celestia infinite bizarre hackathon and it is uh potentially the most inefficient messaging system ever created uh but it allows one abstract account to talk to another abstract account on any of the chains and so uh the original idea behind this was uh anyone could spin up their new rollup you can have the Seb 3.0 rollup right now um and if you're connected to any of the other abstract enabled chains you're of course going to want to be able to communicate with them you're going to want to send adira message on the adir rollup um and so you can install the IBC

mail client and send a message um to a dare and you just specify the path so if we're three hops away let's say that you have to go from osmosis Archway and then a dare um then you'd specify that uh like kind of like subdomain path you'd be a dare at um Archway do osmosis um and then it would resolve this path and send me a message on my client what's the use case for this I mean is like notifications airdrop notifications or uh I don't know like why would you use this so okay the original idea was actually to have Dows be able to message uh message individuals on their favorite

chains so if I have a like if I'm rack FM Dow or something and I have a bunch of users on Juno osmosis and and neutron I would want to see send a blast notification to them with hey there's a new proposal to vote on um and that proposal would be included in the body of the the message that gets sent to them and then on their receiving chains they would be able to interact with that proposal and say yes no um or abstain directly from that message which would send the message back um and enable like just a a lot smoother experience um as a user uh the second thing that this enables is more social applications so if you think about the early days of the

internet we had uh these bullon board Services between multiple different chains uh or multiple different computers um or networks and uh this mail application also can serve as a bulletin board for each individual um and I think this adds a lot more fun social components to it so if you have a bad kid um I can post a message on your bad kid board and anyone else can see it or or like maybe I can send some tokens or something like that it's just fun yeah I know it's it's it's cool I mean I think there's some interesting use cases here maybe for yeah like Dows messaging their users I know that you know there's like other protocols that are doing s similar things in ethereum um like this e um ethereum push notification service

or like these sorts of things H how does abstract uh how does abstract Branch out into to ethereum what are the prospects of abstract applications um you seamlessly interacting with Unis swap or cow swap or any other application on an evm fabulous question okay so uh recently we've seen new uh protocols such as Union and polymer connecting uh IBC to evm and they're doing this through a variety of means though we're closely partnered with Union to allow for any abstract application to control ethereum accounts liquidity applications

um directly using km wasm and this gives you uh infinite programmability on the km wasm side with the best tooling and uh the best like ease of use on that side and you can write complex logic there where all of the calculations are done um and all of the expensive things that you don't want to be doing on ethereum and you just use ethereum or or any uh evm IBC enabled chain to do the execution of those strategies so I see this being really useful for vaults protocols or for protocols looking to orchestrate different liquidity sources on different chains connected via IBC um and also it's it's kind of similar to

what similia does by uh creating Vault strategies directly from their Cosmos SDK chain though you can do this now in kmom um and I think this is what's going to drive uh an influx of developers to the kmm and cosmos space because you're not going to have to deal with the technical limitations of solidity or the evm uh you're going to be able to write directly in Rust and uh create better applications for um yeah for the seeable future how far away is that like when when does abstract start you know allowing users to bridge fun into some account on ethereum and swapping tokens

and bridging them back like these you know these this is kind of like dream use case of being able to interact cross chain uh over Union into ethereum from Cosmos when when is that going to be like actually actually tangibly possible yes so this is tangibly possible uh on Union test net uh between ethereum test net right now uh and they Union has a cosmism chain and of course a deployment is a 5 minute script away so we're we're looking at I think 3 to six months before this is uh brought to developers in the cosmos ecosystem allowing them to uh Bridge send tokens interact with dex's on on ethereum uh abstract is

really trying to push this forward as uh the future of Cosmos is interchain and ethereum is included in the interchain so yeah around six months the of Cosmos chain yeah ethereum is an interchain ethereum is part of the interchain ethereum is not a cosmos chain and actually if you want to uh watch a panel on what is cosmos check out the recordings from Cosmos Berlin last week where um ail Wilson and I uh talk about this as well cool so you guys put out this blog post recently about myfi um what is myi can you explain this yeah so myi is a new era of defi where the users retain full sovereignty over

their assets uh and I think this this is really important as we see more def Pro more advanced dii protocols getting deployed uh because users are losing control over their funds so in these new def5 protocols say that you're building an autoc compounder often times this autoc compounder uh you'll have a vault that's where your liquidity is pulled with all these other users liquidity and this Vault itself is managed by the developers who publish this and this is all fine and dandy until one of those developers decides okay I'm going to rug you today and then they rug that entire Vault and they take the control away from you because those developers are in control of the application with myi which is

sort for my finance I.E your Finance uh you retain full control uh and this is something that's enabled by default by the abstract SDK because every abstract application is owned and controlled by the end user so when you go interact with an autoc compounder on abstract what's actually happening is that you are installing that autoc compounder on your own account um and this takes these modules and instantiates them it it creates this infrastructure on your own account and you deposit into that account where the smart contracts in that account actually are the ones performing that strategy on the assets so you get maximum yield and maximum

control and any time that those developers publish an update to the application you can pull it right in um and you keep that control the second thing that's really important about myi is that developers are no longer uh Financial custodians you're no longer a fiduciary and this reduces your uh legal risk significantly you're not going to have to spend uh those countless hours creating a terms of service because you are custody users funds you're not going to have the legal implications you're not like the SEC coming barking at your door um because you're cusing those user funds the the funds stay in the hands of the user and so you're protected as a

developer you're protected as a user um and I think this is one of the most important Concepts in defi going forward okay so just to kind of summarize here the idea is that you have this account this um this onchain account that is controlled by the user on you know like counterparty chain that account is executing strategies on behalf of the user like autoc compounding like DCA instead of putting funds in a contract and having the contract of another chain that is not managed by the user perform those

actions Let's uh bring this back to like just one chain uh so if you have you have an abstract account um right go and inst an application what happens is that you create a new abstract account and it installs the modules for that application on the account uh so for the autoc compounder that would be the autoc compounder module and the Dex module right um and the staking module so for for for actions that have some kind of like um timed action let's say it's like autoc compounding once a day what or who is initiating those transactions when they may need to happen yes so it depends on what the Chain's capabilities are so uh if you're

on a chain like Neutron or Juno uh that support the cron module uh you're able to uh the module will set up that uh KRON job automatically uh if you're on a chain that doesn't have this uh infrastructure there's an endpoint on the uh on the autoc compounder application that you can give a kind of proxy you can delegate the um permission to execute on that endpoint to an external account that may be running a script um and this does not relinquish any control from you because of course by delegating permission to access uh to execute on that endpoint specifically uh it is not giving access to any of your liquidity or uh the underlying strategy itself sure so you still maintain that

control of the assets what's the prospect of integrating like intents with this so that you know abstract accounts can be utilized in tandem with you know an intense system um yeah like what what are you guys sort of thinking about here yes uh this is of course something that H will happen at scale um especially with cross-chain transactions there's a lot of me opportunities there uh so the way that I see that happening is that anytime that a uh a module goes to uh perform a swap or perform an action that

moves liquidity from one chain to another um it actually goes into an intermediate contract that actually sets up that order uh and then we have an offchain order filler that will look at all the orders try to match them and then um solve those orders uh this is actually something that the time wave team has been hacking on recently um I know that they submitted a project called orbitals uh to the awesome wasm hackathon doing exactly this and so uh once the once there are thousands and hundreds of thousands of users using uh abstract accounts and Performing these actions with uh their tokens um I think there's going to be a lot more opportunity for solving uh or making those actions a lot more efficient um as

of course performing actions across multiple chains isn't the most efficient thing in the world yeah I think I think you're familiar with 42 that they were on the podcast recently and they are building a front end that that uh effectively allows users to leverage AI agents to manage their portfolio um what's the uh what's like the potential interaction here between like a 42 uh front end and an abstract account to create some sort of a um you know cross chain cross application defi portfolio that U users can manage from one place it's like you get front end and the kind of like backend infrastructure working together

yeah um it's great question I uh I think that the best way for this to happen is that you take that AI agent that is creating these defi strategies let's say that it's creating asset allocations uh and you give that AI agent permissions to update the uh the allocations of those assets on an abstract account on an abstract application for example the um the balancer application that I mentioned earlier which allows you to create portfolio of assets with different allocations for each you know 50 osmo 25% x y and z um then the uh AI portfolio manager would update those balances and the orders would be um created on chain and they would be

submitted to this intent system which it would be solved and then the portfolio would be updated so uh yeah cool so what what's on the road map and where can people people go to learn more about abstract and interact like interact with you guys maybe build on abstract sure uh so on the road map uh as I mentioned earlier is we're looking to allow kmm devs to control applications accounts and liquidity on ethereum uh and we are also bringing a brand new experience to users of the interchain we want to allow abstract with its multi-chain infrastructure to

be become the best place to onboard to new apps on the interchain with the abstract app launcher uh and this is the App Store uh and the app uh interaction portal and so look forward to that soon you can check out um sign up for the beta on abstract. money uh if you're a developer looking to build applications on single chains or multi-chain applications definitely check out docs. abstract. money and follow our follow us on Twitter abstract SDK and um yeah thank you so much for having me on today Sebastian yeah it's been a long time coming thanks for coming yeah talk to

you soon it