Institutional Demand for Crypto is Accelerating | Matt Hougan

Transcript

Introduction

The market for institutional demand of crypto is hotter than it's ever been. I think ETF flows are going to accelerate. I'm feeling pretty bullish. Everything is an ETF. Yeah, that is exactly right. And so everything's going to be in crypto. We're going to see single assets. We're going to see index-based. We're going to see thematic. Uh we're going to see levered. You're going to see all of it come to market. Most crypto investors have a very specific opinion about individual assets. And most Tradfi investors, as I said on my panel here, uh don't know how to pronounce Salana. For the first seven years I was at Bitwise, the only thing you could talk about in polite company was a 1% allocation. Uh Morgan Stanley just put out a paper saying go up to four. People are not optimistic enough about the scale of these markets that

these things are going after. >> Nothing said on Ford guidance is a recommendation to buy or sell any investments or products. This podcast is forformational purposes only and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely their opinions, not financial advice or necessarily the views of Blockworks. Our hosts, guests, and the Blockworks team may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed. Here we are, >> Matt Hooan. >> Thank you Bitwise. >> Yeah, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

>> Yeah, you're another one that I always try to catch at these conferences. Um, we chatted at D New York class I think in March. >> Yep. >> And at that time was a really interesting one because we were talking about how all of crypto Twitter was super bearish at the time and then just walking around the conference all the institutions were just so fired up about stable coins, ETFs, Bitcoin, everything. And that was mostly proven correct in terms of the direction. And yeah, here we are again. >> Here we are again. and institutions are still just as fired up about uh Bitcoin, stable coins, and tokenization. In fact, I'd say they're more fired up. We even have a a term for the Bitcoin trade now on Tradfi, the debasement trade. So, it's been it's been officially branded.

Institutional Demand for Crypto

That's sort of a stage of maturation. Uh and then there's the stable coin trade. But yeah, I would say the market for institutional demand of crypto is hotter than it's ever been. I think ETF flows are going to accelerate. I'm feeling pretty bullish. >> Right on. Right on. Um, yeah, I was reading your your latest notes. You write you write a weekly newsletter and you were saying that you thought I think this year's ETF flows were going to surpass 2024, right? >> That is right. Yep. >> What's the thinking there? >> Well, for one, I should say that's the norm in ETF land, >> right? >> So, I come from an ETF background, right? I was CEO of ETF.com before I joined Bitwise. Usually in ETFs, year two is bigger than year one. Year three is bigger than year two. Year four is bigger than year three. That's for two

Why 2025 ETF Flows Will Beat 2024

reasons. one, big institutions take a time to okay ETFs. So like in Bitcoin land, Morgan Stanley just said >> two weeks ago that their advisers could buy Bitcoin ETFs. So you have new markets that open up. And the second one, which is just so obvious, is like what's the first time you bought Bitcoin? Have you bought Bitcoin since then? I bet the answer is yes. I bet you didn't just like one and done. So even the people who bought Bitcoin ETFs last year are buying them again this year. Yeah. I really think flows are going to accelerate hard into the end of the year.

Market Impact of ETFs

>> Is there anything particular about the what we expect of a wave of altcoin ETFs that stands out to you as being, you know, impactful to the market aside from, you know, broader access to these tokens, but you know, things that aren't being talked about and how important they will be for maybe market structure or flows or >> Yeah. Uh pro probably two things. Um so from a flow's perspective the one thing I would point out is that uh there are some blockchains protocols assets that occupy a bigger space in people's minds than they do in a market cap perspective. So I talk about Salana for instance if you talk if you look at the coverage at block works the ratio of

coverage between Bitcoin ETH and Salana is not that different but from a market cap perspective Salana is 1/5 the size of ETH and 125th the size of Bitcoin. Why does that matter? Uh it matters because even a little bit of flows into Salana ETPs could significantly lift the market. So that's one thing I would keep in mind from a market structure perspective. The thing that's happened in Bitcoin as an example is ETFs have been become effectively a layer 2 for Bitcoin. Right? There's a lot of trading and transaction in Bitcoin ETFs that doesn't manifest onchain. You can think of it as almost separating investment transactions from real world transactions. I suspect we're going to see that in these other places and

that's actually robust for the market. We don't necessarily want Salana consumed with investment related activity of soul tokens. Uh that's great if it happens on ETF land. So I think ETFs are very complimentary from that perspective. >> It doesn't inhibit the the revenue potential or fee profile. You don't think? Well, it does a little bit, but I don't much care about that because I think people underestimate the size of the market that something like Ethereum or Salana is going after, right? Uh those are enormous >> relative to today. We always have a bias to forget how early it is.

>> It's so it's it's so early. I mean, even people even do that just thinking about stable coins versus uh versus tokenization. But just looking at stable coins, right, the consensus is the market's going to 10 or 12x in the next four years. There's 1.8 quadrillion payments a year. Quadrillion. Like how many times have you used that word? Never. So that the the size of that market is just so large that I don't mind if like me trading my soul or ETH position takes place in ETFs. That's you know that's that's probably good. >> Yeah. So I want to ask that headline came forth. I think it was about a month ago that went under the radar which is just this change around the ETFs.

SEC Authorizing In-Kind ETF

Obviously when they first came out there was this idea of cash versus inind. And correct me if I'm wrong, this is your world, but there was a change to that ruling, right? And what does that actually mean for that change? >> Yeah. So what it cash versus incind means how ETFs are created. So for instance, under the way Bitcoin ETFs were first approved, it was called a cash creation. What that meant is effectively uh when an when an authorized participant wanted to create shares of my ETF, uh they would give us cash and we would have to go out and buy Bitcoin. In an inind creation, they give us Bitcoin and we give them shares. The reason that matters in sort of phase one is it makes it uh easier and more liquid and lower cost to trade Bitcoin ETFs because it's just fewer steps and less

slippage. >> Uh so it it makes it incrementally better. What what eventually the world hopes for is that individuals could incline and create. That's still a ways away, but just doing it on an institutional level makes the market more liquid. It's also just another signal that Bitcoin ETFs are treated like every other ETF, right? So, it's a normalization. That's how most of the market works. So, it's a positive, but it's an incremental positive. >> Yeah. >> I don't want to go into Friday too much because it's it's just I think it's a lot of noise. We've talked about it a lot, but does from a traditional institutional allocators perspective, does does that interfere with, you know, there's the narrative with this wave of potential altcoin ETFs like and you know, does that interrupt either

Crypto Crash Stress Test

approval or uh excitement at all around those? >> I don't think so. I mean, first it's worth noting from a price perspective, Friday didn't happen to institutions, right? Yeah. >> Uh the market closed at 117 Bitcoin and opened at 115. No big deal. >> Um from a excitement perspective, look, I have the perspective that bit that crypto broadly passed the stress test on Friday. I know there were some issues on Binance. I know there were some issues on transactions being fulfilled, but broadly speaking, it passed. So, I don't think it I don't think it dulls excitement. We're also in ETF land.

While we're going to get a lot of ETFs, we're not talking about the long tail. Yeah. Right. So, uh, you know, ATOM traded to zero. There's no plan for an Atom ETF, right? >> Uh, so I think if anything, it was a pretty good stress pest and I think we passed pretty well. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Um, to that point about this, there's this change to the SEC recently where they made it so again, this is just out of my world, so but but this is why you're here. Um, but there's this change to basically the guidelines from the SEC, right? So now they don't have to go through this long-winded approval process. It was just like, "All right, you have a you have a futures already.

Expedited SEC Approval

Okay, great. So then you can just list ETF." Is that how it works or what happened there with those changes? >> Yeah. So the way it used to work is you had to go to the SEC and beg, >> And in addition to begging, you had to prove that this ETF was not subject to manipulation, which is sort of proving a negative, which is very hard to do. It took what 10 years in Bitcoin, uh, a few years in ETH, and every single one had to go through this process. What they changed is they moved to what's called generic listing standards. Generic listing standards means if you fit a checkbox, then you can launch your ETF.

And so, as you mentioned, if there's a futures contract that's been trading on a regulated exchange, including exchanges like Coinbase or Bnomial for 6 months, then you're good to go, right? And that means we're going to get a dozen crypto assets roughly launched now. and then more futures will list and we'll get, you know, a few dozen. A fun fact from ETF land is this actually happened in ETFs. So, believe it or not, when ETFs were first created, you had to petition for every single ETF and then there was something called the ETF rule, which was put in place, which established this generic listing process. What we saw is that the pace of launches in traditional ETFs rose by about 400%.

>> So, 4xed. >> Now everything's an ETF. >> Now everything is an ETF. Yeah, that is exactly right. And so everything's going to be in crypto. We're going to see single assets. We're going to see index based. We're going to see thematic. Uh we're going to see levered. You're going to see all of it come to market. Not all of those will attract attention or flows, but some of them will. >> Why isn't there a basis trade ETF? I've I've wondered that. And and when I want to know when basis trade ETF and when ETHBTC ETF. >> Yeah. Uh great question. Um, so on the basis trade side, there are some ETFs that do like traditional regulated uh option overlay and style strategies.

The Future of Crypto ETFs

>> It's hard to get into using PERS in an ETF structure because you have the like the the regulated unregulated is like the blood brain barrier of crypto and it's hard to cross that. So that will still be a while but not not forever. um on when BTC ETH uh I think that's going to happen. You know, we have a an index-based product that trades sort of like GBTC that we've positioned to turn into an ETF. We're waiting for approval of that. >> I think that's actually going to be the second biggest category in ETFs after Bitcoin.

>> It's going to be Bitcoin, index, ETH, Salana, etc. So useful for then it opens up different strategies for asset allocators market neutral like long short >> 100%. And it's also worth noting, you know, most uh most crypto investors have a very specific opinion about individual assets and most traders, as I said on my pronounce Salana, >> right? So, so they are going to be better served with a broad-based basket, an index basket. If you or if you looked at my index, you would find an asset that you hate.

>> Uh and therefore you'd be like, I'm not buying that. Uh but if you're a tradfi investor, you don't know and you just want exposure. Um and and so I think that'll be a dominant way that many people gain exposure. >> Isn't that leads to reflexivity where the high market caps just get higher market cap? >> 100%. I mean, you've seen that >> in stacks. >> It's exactly right. Like that's the mag 7 experience. Um and then when you get automatic investing through 401ks or or 529s, you do see that. So I think there is going to be a on therun off therun difference between these popular index products and other people are launching them not just bitwise. Um but I do think it'll be a category defining difference and different valuation. I've started, this is separate topic and we can revert

Market Perp-ification & Stablecoin TAM

to TFS if >> oh bring it but um I'm starting to see more talk percolate through traditional uh derivatives people just totally non-crypto parts of the financial markets around per and and um you know a lot of tunes changing as in in some cases people are receptive and others they're like oh finally the one good thing that crypto has brought to is this per model that 247 and the the updated funding refresh funding rates and so and and it makes total sense also like why it's blown up in crypto because it's easier than other derivatives. That's right. Options and you know good luck teaching

yeah good luck you know teaching you know random person to and the sizing metrics of of CME contracts things like this. So what is the like most you know advanced where are you seeing this type of proliferation most advance within traditional a propification of traditional markets? >> Yeah, you're definitely seeing it. So you're seeing like markets like CME start to investigate it on S&P 500. I think it's two things colliding. So one it's the innovation of per which I do think is a real financial innovation and the second thing is you have a retailification of the options market right which traditionally was an institutional market which could handle those large contract volumes which could

handle you know various Greeks uh that didn't need to be wizzywig you know where what you see is what you get but now we have retail investors really embracing and you put those two together I think you're going to see the per market become a dominant way that people gain exposure to all assets. It's just a really nice neat innovation. Yeah, >> it's it's I I like the nine to, you know, New York market hours for it's good for mental health when you're active in in in the markets. Um >> so hopefully they keep that commit. >> I I would say enjoy it while you >> the world wants to be global 247 365. Uh that's where I think we're going to go.

I do think it's going to change market structure. One thing I'd note, just I it's hard not to talk about Friday. One thing I'd note about Friday is the Trump tweet came out at 5:00 p.m. Uh that was 8 hours after China. The reason it came out at 5:00 p.m. is that's when you dump bad news on the market so the market has time to digest it. >> But that's no longer going to be the case, right? Um the the thing now that we're talking about it that actually just light bulb went off. you have if you start perpying all traditional so S&P 500 all these things you need baking rails at 6 PM on a Friday and and that's stable either swift is on the blockchain which we saw some announcements whatever but that's

stable coins you basically need stable coins for per S&P whatever >> you need stable coins you need you need a different structural relationship um >> that's that's actually wow >> I think that's I think that's going to happen too and you you do regulated exchanges looking to permission uh stable coins or assets like Bittle as um as collateral like as official collateral and uh yeah I mean yeah the look the 247 365 market >> needs all the pieces of crypto to really operate so >> yeah get that >> the bullcase for stable coins just our government's debt problem is is enough to be a ginormous bullcase but then when you think of bringing on the

>> tens of trillions in and and equities and gold commodities into pers that need settlement collateral. It's like >> Yeah. And then it's all global brokerages. It's not like just like one exchange in the US. It's just like everything. >> Yes. This is what I mean when I said that people are not optimistic enough these things are going after. Um the the the the size, the distribution, these are just enormous markets. >> Uh and making them 247 will make them bigger. There will be more transaction activity. So I really Yeah, I think people underestimate.

>> We need the men in black thing to eliminate our like being in cryptos. >> All our negative kept us like cuz everyone's like it feels like you're in crypto like crawling just you know just like you're like the boxer that's just gotten smoked a million times like and and we had such a sea change just in 12 n months in administration and adoption and everything. It's so hard to comprehend that magnitude. you're like on the front lines, so you're you're telling the story and people are like, "Oh, he's just the Uber bull." Cuz like, but you're like, "No, I I'm talking to these people who are their eyes are open." Yes.

>> And they control >> one of these guys press a button and it's more money than all their crypto controls. And you're like, >> "That is that is exactly right." I mean, there's there's 110 trillion dollars of global stocks. >> That's like a very big number. >> You got to see the numbers on a piece of paper to comprehend. 26 times bigger than the crypto market, right? It's it's orders of magnitude. I think people miss that. >> Insane. Um, talking about this idea of these like exotic ETF structures, something I'm curious about is uh I'm a big fan of like what Simplifiers has been doing where they've been taking basically, you know, all these exotic derivatives that were basically basically needed in VISDA to trade them stuff like, you know, seven-year swapions. And what they do is they just basically put that in an ETF wrapper and

Exotic ETF Structures & Retail Access

then be able to allow retail to have access to that. I'm curious what do you think about that idea of taking these more exotic things that was only for people with ISDAS and we have it in an ETF rapper. Is there any interest in there from Bitwise himself or the crypto industry? What what's your read on this? >> Yeah. So, so generally speaking, I'm a huge fan of it. I've been a huge fan of it in the equity market and bond market. Um, one way to think of ETFs is they let every investor invest like the largest institution in the world, right? That's a really cool thing about ETFs. I can buy the same Bitcoin ETF as Harvard's endowment. Like that's pretty cool. Um you can package these complex trades and make them available. Uh the the the risk of it is you have to do a very good job

explaining it. Yeah. >> Right. The number of uh investors who don't understand that a 3x ETF can go down when the underlying market goes up >> over the course of a month. >> It's actually very simple math to explain it, but the number of people get it is is challenging. So you need explanations but if you can do it >> it's fantastic like why should institutions have access to that trade a >> and not me it doesn't seem right bitwise is bitwise is definitely looking at it we think there's a sequence that people get interested in it but I think things like those buffered ETFs and things if you can explain them well um will eventually be a very big >> we we need an RIX or PIX for Bitcoin just like constant

>> you know super long callity. Yeah, just >> yeah, >> I think you'll get that >> that that that's >> once you unleash I mean the ETF innovation machine is a little bit like the like the crypto innovation machine. It will it will stretch as far as the market allows. >> Um and now that we we can do these things, I think you'll see them happen pretty fast. >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you think like obviously we're all excited but can can you foresee any sort of potential t obviously like we just had Friday where it's like all right a bunch of retails on perplexes and they all got liquidated and it's like all right well now we're introducing you know covered call ETFs and things like that obviously for that it's it's somewhat safe for the average retail but if you get into these things

ETF Tail Risks

are a bit more sophisticated do you see any potential tailor start to emerge and is that solve for that just better education like you were saying >> so the the the risk is from my perspective of complex ETFs is that people buy them who don't understand them >> and then they blow up and then they sue uh the ETF issuers and they look poorly upon the industry. That's been happening in ETFs for the last 20 years. There was a inverse volatility ETF >> XIV uh that uh that famously went up. >> The oil ones >> the in20 oil ones went negative and uh the the the bare the 3x negative financials ETF returned negative during the financial crisis which blew people's

minds. >> Um so that is the big risk. Is there any like reflexive risk into the market? I'm not sure. We're pretty good at levering up in crypto. I don't think ETFs are going to I don't think we need ETFs to do more >> have helped the volatility structure of Bitcoin. Yeah. Whereas everything else >> that's definitely right and for what it's worth like ETFs fail all the time. They close all the time. They don't raise assets. They don't get flows. >> I think if uh if we launch like a dozen even the first dozen >> there two or three assets that I would be surprised if got any flows. So that's normal. But the blowup risk is really you introduce a complex ETF. Do people understand it?

>> Yeah. That's really the risk. >> That makes sense. >> What about the options space on ETFs? Um feel like the last time we talked we started to talk a little bit about it and it's sort of like well we see where that will take us obviously they're all now in play. What's what's your view on the options landscape on ETFs? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so uh just to just to be sure, do you mean the growth of options on ETFs or do you mean sort of option income strategies that we've seen? Oh, the growth of options like just having option chains on ETFs and it's like comparing that to people are trying to do onchain ETFs or like direct crypto exposure, but >> I was always pretty bearish on them just because the the spreads are so horrendous versus something like yeah these classic Bitcoin ETFs where the

Options & the Expanding ETF Landscape

liquidity is a lot better. >> I mean look from one perspective ETFs and option on ETFs are bridged to our tokenized future uh and our decentralized future but that bridge is going to extend for 10 years. So right now I mean there there's there's more IBIT options than there are Bitcoin options on DAR bit. >> Right. So it's it's you know it it's like the old meme about who's the captain of the ship. >> Um that is now the ETF tradfi landscape. >> Broadly speaking it's just good. >> Uh broadly speaking it's a different set of investors which should reduce volatility uh reduce auto serial correlation risk and I think that's generally true. Um there are exceptions to that. So, so one exception, uh, you know, one of the reasons I think Friday

was as big as it was is that traditional investors now use Bitcoin to react to markets. Yeah. >> Traditional markets are closed. That wasn't true two years ago. >> Uh, and now I think everyone reaches for that Bitcoin button. So, that's an example of like the negative externalities, >> but broadly speaking, it's a it's a net good. >> Yeah. And I enjoy the safety, you know, safety infrastructure, you know, uh integrity of traditional brokers. I think you know crypto space has graduated but still I think most people prefer custody in in existing players and also the liquidity and things of IBIT options and but that what's the timing do you think towards like that

the 247 is a is the biggest but traditional guys don't care I guess but it is it is that's a tra that's a downside. Yeah. So, so there there two forces to keep in mind. Um, one is, uh, is when regulation unleashes real 24/7 markets in a tokenized fashion in a way that most of the money cares about, >> right? So, I would guess that that's like a 3 to five year thing. I don't think it's tomorrow. And the second is when do young cryptonative people have money? Uh, because every generation gets its version of a broker. There was the Charles Schwab generation and then there was the Erade generation and now there's the Robin Hood generation and you can

see that Robin Hood now really matters because the people who grew up with Robin Hood now have actual wealth. I think the thing behind Robin Hood is sort of a cryptonative generation. I think that'll be the first generation that makes tokenized stocks, but those people, you know, it'll take them 10 years to have real money. So, I think it's coming and there probably these two phases. Um, but it's not it's not tomorrow. I'm very excited about it, but it's not tomorrow. >> Yeah. Yeah. Anything novel when you talk to these institutions in terms of the next 12 months of what they're excit Obviously, you know, there's Yeah.

What Excites Institutions?

Stable coins, Bitcoin, they're sold on. Anything else there that's super interesting you've been hearing? Well, so uh first I would say um their interest in stable coins, it's just off the chart. >> It's just insane. Yeah, >> it's off. It's it's it's equal to or more than their interest in Bitcoin. uh and they love to find out how to invest in it. It's the first question I get. >> So that that's the big um the second thing I'd say about that group that maybe is non-obvious is uh the amount they're willing to invest is now significantly higher.

>> So to to put data on that for the first seven years I was at Bitwise, the only thing you could talk about in polite company was a 1% allocation. >> Uh Morgan Stanley just put out a paper saying go up to four. >> Wow. >> Right. Which is which is >> magnitude >> 4x. I mean that's a lot more right that's a lot more and we in our own research >> we used to show 1 to 5 now we show 1 to 10 why do we show 1 to 10 because an increasing number of people talk to us about having a 10% allocation so they're expanding out in terms of where they're investing beyond Bitcoin ETH soul tokenization um that's that's sort of where it ends they're also very interested in crypto

equities I think circles IPO put that on people's minds, >> but they're really just in this two story, Bitcoin and and tokenization. >> Is Vanguard talking to you guys yet? >> Uh, I've emailed my guys at Vanguard. They'll they'll come along. >> They're going to have to. >> Look, Vanguard initially hated ETFs. Yeah. >> Uh, they said ETFs were like giving candy to to to an infant. >> Um, and now they're the biggest player in the world. So I I almost don't want to say this because I don't mean it seriously, but there's a world where we wake up and they're one of the biggest players in crypto. Um, you know, they're one of the largest holders of Micro Strategy in the world. Uh, they're a very big dog, but they're they're coming along for sure.

>> Everyone, we should forgive people who are anti because they all convert, right? You can find Michael Sailor tweets where he hates Bitcoin. >> Uh, you can find Larry Frink talking negatively about Bitcoin. Uh eventually even Jaime Diamond will say good things about the market. You can see him coming along. So Vanguard will get here. We'll get there. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. >> Welcome. Yeah. With open arms. >> Welcome him with open arms, right? And there's nothing like the zeal of the converted. Just look at Black Rockck. >> Oh yeah. 100%. So yeah, you're hearing that allocation size is increasing. You say 4%.

The Future of Crypto Allocations

>> It's sort of common where they're all going. >> I think 5%. Oh, they're all going higher. Yeah. 1% is rarely talked about now, right? Um, I think three is probably the median and five is completely >> When do you think they'll get to like 100% 3x levered? >> That's true. That's true. Probably by December. Yeah. Yeah, they will they will get there. Uh, they will get there. But it's it's really changed. It's really changed dramatically. >> And um and I think you one reason is volatility has come down. As volatility comes down mathematically it goes up.

The other is that the binary risk, the reason it was 1% for so long was that there was a risk that crypto didn't work and then it would go to zero and your capital >> and they would get fired. >> Um I think that binary risk has disappeared from their minds and so now it's like well if we're doing it let's do it at five. >> Yeah. Is there much interest for like a debasement ETF that's like 60% gold 40% Bitcoin? >> Yes. There's a lot of interest. So So we have a we have a gold Bitcoin ETF in Europe. >> Oh yeah. um we filed about but can't uh can't talk beyond the filing doing a debasement ETP in the US.

>> Nice. >> Uh I think that's it's worth noting if you're interested in hard assets and you're 100% gold you're off the market, right? The market is saying it's 9010 uh 9010 would be the base. If you're at zero, if you're 100% gold, 0% Bitcoin, you're effectively short Bitcoin against the benchmark of what the Globe is telling you is global stores of value. So I think there's a lot of interest in at least being on benchmark. 6040 is better than 9010, but 100 is like mathematically wrong. There's a lot of good uh some people put out about how important gold is to an equity portfolio and how even 50/50 particularly the last few years

>> cuts fallen like half like a third and your returns have been the same slightly better >> and with more optionality when when you have draw downs. 60 gold 40 bitcoin has like a higher I think risk address of return or something than >> just barrel could >> just yeah on the on the road >> but even bitcoin coming now like >> barely even creeping above 40 45 is like >> that's less than most big large cap equities. >> Yeah it's gotten down to that level. It's it's um it's really been remarkable. >> It's crazy. Yeah. My interest rates itself is Yeah.

>> is 45. >> Yeah. Yeah. And the response to that again is a bigger allocation size. >> Um and so there is there's almost a reflexive loop >> right >> there which I think is is important. Yeah. We don't we don't appreciate the um you know mathematical reasons for why these thing things how how much it's like how much of the equity world you know flows and moves off systematics and vault control and passive and and uh exposure levels there and how that also applies to adopting these new asset classes and lower volatility higher growth you know it's uh yeah math Mathematically there's they they have

to. >> Yeah. You don't need you know we're always trying to paint this qualitative beautiful mosaic of why adoption's you know going to keep going like this and you know they have to and because the governments and because the and >> there's some more simple just math. >> Yeah. They put it into a program. Yeah. >> And it spits out a number and and today that number is higher than it was two years ago. So they invest more. Yeah. >> Um that's that's it's actually an important point. Yeah. Um, you know, to that point, we we published our our first piece giving long-term capital market assumptions on Bitcoin to provide forecasts of what those numbers are. Um, before this year, no one asked us for it. So, they're they're just starting to plug it in. And when they plug it in, it tells them they should own some Bitcoin,

right? And so, they're going to >> Anything else you're excited about that we didn't cover? >> Oh, what am I excited about? Um, I'm I mean, I am really excited. I'm I'm really excited about the broadening of the ETF landscape. >> Uh because crypto tells a much better story when you're talking about all the things it can do than if you're just talking about Bitcoin. And I think that's really changed. Um I'm excited about the downstream. I I I've been thinking a lot about what the second order investments are to like the stable coin boom. I think many people are want to invest in stable coins and so they buy ETH and Salana and Tron and Circle.

Final Thoughts

>> Um but I think if you have an enormous growth in stable coins, you're going to see an enormous growth in DeFi. I think there's some interesting second order effects to to stable coin growth that people probably aren't paying attention to yet. So, I'm excited about that. But mostly, I don't know. I think it's never been a better time to invest in crypto. So, I'm just excited to watch the market grow. Yeah, I love it. All right, Matt, always good to have you on. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Great chat. Thanks.