Inside the DAO Hack: Griff Green — Giveth

Transcript

So, Griff, um I want to take us back to before Crypto Times. >> Okay. >> Who you were and what you were doing before Crypto Times. I want to chat about being a chemical engineer. >> I want to chat about the volunteering. I want to also chat about the arc and the events that brought you into the space and who you were at that time and what were you searching for when you stumbled upon crypto.

>> Okay. Okay, that sounds fun. Yeah, let's let's go back in time. >> I'm an old man, so you know, you're talking about this is like 20 years ago at this point, but Okay, let's do it. go. >> Okay. So, yeah, I uh well, I grew up in Spokane Washington. >> Okay. Not that far. [laughter] >> Okay. And uh I ended up going to the University of Washington, getting a chemical engineering degree, and I worked at uh I mean, this is kind of funny. I worked at a biioharmaceutical company called Amgen. >> Okay.

>> This was my first gig, and we were >> genetically engineering Chinese hamster ovary cells to produce human proteins. >> Okay? And so what that looks like is like you have these little cells that are genetically engineered to be they were actually from hamster ovaries >> that were genetically engineered to live as a unicellular organism. >> Okay. >> And it was so crazy these these like scientists in like lab coats would have what looks like a shotgun but it's plastic, right? and they'd literally shoot human DNA into a petri dish and almost all of the unicellular organisms would die.

>> Okay? >> But the ones that didn't die, some of them would absorb the human DNA into their DNA. >> Okay? >> And then you we would I worked at the pilot plant and we would take those cells and determine which ones of them had the best sequence that would produce the most human proteins. Okay? And then we'd scale those up into vats and it was like this gross. It looked like blood like like it was so weird. And uh and it was just like vats of blood. And I worked on the pumps that would actually try to not destroy the cells. So we'd use these parastolic pumps.

>> Okay. >> That would like just like bend a tube to pump the blood. >> Okay. >> The bloody genetically engineered cells to like to into the vats. Anyway, that was my first job. Okay. >> And so then after that, I thought that was a little gross and actually it felt like Amgen was part of the Illuminati basically. So it was like really I didn't want to be anywhere near that [ __ ] And so I can swear, right? >> I hope so. Yeah, >> I hope so. We'll see who's who's producing [laughter] this. There might be a lot of beliefs now. So watch out. Uh and then after that I I wanted to get into something a little more ethical.

And so I I went into uh power generation. >> Okay. I worked for a power I worked for SNC Lavlin which this is in the states but it's a huge Canadian company uh construction company and I was working on building natural gas power plants >> okay >> and also did like a lot of power generation like concentrated solar uh where they have mirrors pointing at like a a molten salt >> okay >> and they would melt the molten salt and then the molten salt would heat uh water for a steam turbine so basically anything with a steam turbine we did turkey [ __ ] like uh tur again turkey sham turbine to generate electricity. So, lots of cool stuff, but mostly there was

this power plant that was fueling an aluminum smelter. >> Okay. >> And um basically two things kind of put me in this place where I became a crazy anarchist. >> Okay. >> Uh the first is that aluminum smelter. you know, I got out of Amgen because I just wanted to do better work. And then I was doing natural gas power plant, which natural gas actually for most of the in most places is uh especially in 2009, uh is really almost like a pollutant. >> Yes.

>> Because like when they're drilling oil and all this stuff, it's like we have all this natural gas and half the time they just burn it off, right? because it's better to create CO2 and water with it than let CH4 >> out into the atmosphere. So, so it's kind of just a waste product of drilling for oil. >> And uh so making natural gas power plants, I'm like, this is actually like really good work. We're turning what would be pollution into electricity for people. This is good things. >> But this electricity was fueling an aluminum smelter.

>> Mhm. And somehow I like I designed lots of systems for that uh project, but I ended up having to deal with the pollution out of the aluminum smelter. >> Okay. [snorts] >> And uh the solution to pollution is dilution. This is like a chemical engineering like phrase. >> Okay. >> And so my engineering task was figure out how much seawater do you pump into the pollution before you pump it back into the ocean. >> Got it. [snorts] >> And in Abu Dhabi the regulations aren't that great. And basically, like without getting too technical, the water going into the the ocean was 3,000, no 300 times more acidic than the water of the ocean. So basically, and it's this big

pipe. Like we're talking you could walk through this pipe just pumping out acid water into the ocean. And I was supposed to design it >> and I kind of cheated >> on the design. >> Okay. >> And tried to make it like uh only 30 times as acidic. >> Okay. instead of >> 300. >> And I got caught. >> Okay. >> And they said I had to fix the math because the estimates on the on the pumps that would pump that water were way too expensive. Okay. >> And they know it's not that bad. >> So, you know, I just was fudging numbers to get it better and then like but the costs are the costs. And so I redid that calc and I felt dirty ever since and I really didn't want to do that work

anymore. Yeah. >> Um, and so when layoffs came around in 200 in 2009, like post 2008 collapse, >> I basically was like, pick me, I want out of this, you know? >> Yeah. >> And uh and part of the reason I did that was because before that, I was obsessed with the Seattle SuperSonics. >> Yep. >> Just like I mean, I still wear a lot of green, you know? I was like uh I would go to every game. I would wear Sonics gear like I wear crypto gear now every day. The only day I wouldn't wear wear Sonic's clothes was after they lost because I would be in mourning.

>> Okay. >> I would I mean I was obsessed. Right. >> Okay. >> And then they got bought by uh Oklahoma City, a guy from Oklahoma City. >> Yes. >> And now they're the Oklahoma City Thunder. But before that there was two years where the guy owned the team in Seattle. And so I helped uh found an organization called the Save Our Sonics organization. And for two years while I was a chemical engineer, I had another full-time job trying to and it started actually when I was a senior in uh in college. Uh but I had a second full-time job of trying to keep the town this the Seattle SuperSonics in town.

>> Okay. >> And we had we were going to win. We had a court case. >> Okay. They they had a contract uh the Seattle SuperSonics had a contract with the city. >> Okay. >> And and they had to they the city like 12 years before that rebuilt the arena for them. >> Yes. >> And there was a clause that said they have to be there for 15 years. >> And so we were going to legally enforce that clause that the city was going to overlook. >> Okay. >> And it was like from it wasn't from the city at all. We had to fight the city to enforce the clause. And we had a court case and I had like I got to I ran so many this is where I became a community organizer effectively, right? And I ran so many events and we had a whole party

planned because the day the judge was going to give their ruling and we knew the ruling was in our favor. >> Yeah. uh we were going to throw this huge party and everything was planned and then instead before the judge gave the ruling two hours before the mayor uh came out and said we made a deal with the team >> uh and they're going to give us $30 million and they're going to take the team to Oklahoma City. And so the whole court case was just like void. Didn't matter. The judge never gave a ruling and the team was gone. So I went from like we won, we did it, two years, we did it to like, oh my [ __ ] god, what a waste of time.

>> One [ __ ] mayor gets a [ __ ] and signs signs a a think piece of paper and every all this work from the citizens that did all this work to keep the team here just to enforce a city contract doesn't [ __ ] matter, you know? [snorts] >> So I lost it. >> Yeah. >> Fullon anarchist. >> Okay. like just like I don't care about I was if that didn't happen I'd probably still be a chemical engineer hanging out in Seattle with courtside seats happy >> at the 15 years exactly I would have watched them win the championship last year except no now they're the Oklahoma City Thunder and uh now I don't care about basketball all I'm a total nomad left the US just like you know explored the

world uh saw the world became uh you know really get really into cryp I also had a lot of jobs before that. Um, you know, lots of odd jobs. I started a moving company with a U-Haul I owned. Uh, I became a Thai masseuse. >> Okay. >> Uh, I I have like all these random handyman jobs that I would do. Just >> any feathers in your cap? >> Yeah. I just had like a Craigslist business selling grow equipment. >> I would buy grow equipment and then resell it on Craigslist for more. like learned my arbitrage game with that and and I I heard about uh Bitcoin in 2011 from a Trace Mayerbot podcast.

>> Okay. >> It was like $5 >> and I was really excited about it because I hated the banks as well. >> Yeah. >> Uh you know, >> you didn't have a bank account for a minute, did you? >> Yes. I mean, when I went full-on anarchist, like even uh before the Sonics were sold, I was already like really into libertarian theory. Okay. uh human action by Lud Visus and Roth Rothbard and all these guys uh kind of like a you know armchair econ libertarian economist guy. >> Yeah. >> And uh and so I was buying gold and silver and when uh after I got laid off I had unemployment for many years. Okay.

>> Supplementing my uh my like uh random like Craigslist action. >> Okay. >> And then when the unemployment was over in 2011, I was like I don't need a bank account anymore. And the only way to get Bitcoin was actually with the banks. You had to wire money to Japan or do some kind of weird bank account stuff. And so I was like, "Fuck that. I don't want to use banks." Like, Bitcoin might be that solution eventually. And then uh I was in Thailand and my good buddy who also heard about Bitcoin with me in 2011 and we would talk about it a little bit.

>> Yeah. >> He was like, "Hey, have you heard of the Silk Road?" >> Okay. >> You can buy drugs off the Silk Road. It's so cool. Uh, and like, "Yeah, that's cool. Uh, how'd you get the Bitcoin?" He's like, "Oh, I went to Coinbase and I used my bank account to get Bitcoin." And I was like, >> Coinbase had just popped up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so I was like, "Cool, man. Can I give you some gold and silver and I'll get some Bitcoin, >> you know, cuz I didn't have a bank account, right? I couldn't use Coinbase." >> And so, uh, I traded him like $1,500 of silver and $1,500, like one ounce of gold >> at the time. And then uh he gave me a bunch of Bitcoin, like three grand worth of Bitcoin. I put that on BTCE. Yeah.

And I tried out Litecoin and Feathercoin and Namecoin and Terracoin and all these old coins, right? All of >> them. I just kind of diversified. And this was like right after Cyprus in 2013, like April 2013, it crashed, went to 250, and then down to 50. >> And cuz we were watching Bitcoin the whole time. When it went to 250, I was like, "This is so crazy." And then after $50, I was like, "Dude, I want to buy in now." like this is it got down to 50. I think I actually averaged in at about $80 right? >> Okay. Okay. >> And uh and then you know I was like this is cool. I was watching I was watching it go up and then by the end of the year it went to $1,000. I'm like what is this stuff? Like I made 24 grand most of it

off of Litecoin and at that point I was living off 12 grand a year. >> Yeah. >> So I'm like dude I could >> two years. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's two years of lifestyle. Like >> I'm obsessed. like what is this stuff? And then as I got deep deeper, you know, we have Andreas Antonopoulos, we have like all these guys, the the thought leaders in crypto back back then, first off, it was just Bitcoin. Yes. It wasn't crypto. It wasn't blockchain. It was Bitcoin. And all these altcoins, they're like other bitcoins. Yep. You know, and so uh people were just like talking about all the cool things that you could do with Bitcoin, how we could build something better than governments with Bitcoin and all these cool things.

>> Me, let's go. I became obsessed because it really >> spoke to you. >> Yeah. It it like cuz I was a systems engineer, process engineer. I wasn't a computer science engineer. >> Okay. >> Right. But I I I was building systems all of my life, you know, and or all of my career, I guess. And so I got excited about how it like kind of tickled different parts of my existence, you know, >> and beliefs and like way of looking at things and what could be better and different and all of this. >> And in 2013, you could consume all of the content.

>> Yeah. >> Right. There wasn't that much. It was like Vitalik was writing stuff for Bitcoin magazine and there was let's talk Bitcoin podcast and Dre Santinopoulos would have talks and then there's like these other random things you know and so uh I I I would consume as much as I could and I got obsessed and then I started arbitrageing like uh after 2013 and it went to $1,000 I gave up and also I was hurting my wrist doing Thai massage. I was living in Beverly Hills, uh, and kind of a mix between in my van and with a girlfriend. You know, [laughter] I had a U-Haul that I used as a moving van, but I turned the back into a like a studio apartment.

>> Okay. >> This U-Haul >> and uh and then but then I also had a girlfriend and actually my uh I kind of got so obsessed with Bitcoin my my girlfriend got jealous and I broke up with her because I wanted to spend more time on Bitcoin. >> Okay. >> I know. Is this Hold on. Like this is an interesting human layer of you kind of >> the crypto side affecting your relationships. >> Oh yeah. >> Was that the beginning? >> Well, she didn't like the screen stuff, you know. She didn't like constantly.

>> Yeah. I'm like, I want to work on this. It became an obsession, right? Okay. And uh and like you know when I was doing more massage like it would only be like two or three hours a day. Okay. >> And I'd give like a really badass time massage and I had this >> because you were just so >> Yeah. >> wanted to do the other stuff. Right. >> Exactly. And now now I'm spending all my time on the computer and she's like, "Dude, I thought we were going to hang out." Cuz she did she was a writer but didn't have too much work. Okay. >> You know, and so we had a lot of time to just hang out, go to the park, eat food together. And then I wanted to work like, you know, 50 60 hour weeks and just try to understand what this space

is about. >> And so it was kind of like she wanted more of a she was more of a highmaintenance like we need more time together. Quality quality time girl. And uh >> but at that time in your life, you were like, "No, I have to pursue this." >> Yeah. And so I broke up with her and went to Ecuador and was like, "I'm going to be the Andreas Antonopoulos of Ecuador." >> Okay. >> Right. because I uh spent a lot of time in Ecuador before that. >> Okay. >> Uh there's like this nice hippie town, Vil Kabomba. >> Okay. >> And I was like I had a lot of friends there and and they use the US dollar >> and they have a 5% tax on any money that leaves the country.

>> Okay. >> So, Bitcoin would solve a lot of problems for remittances and things like that. You could kind of skirt the tax basically, right? Yeah. >> And so I was like, "Oh, dude, Ecuador, I loved Ecuador. It was one of my favorite spots that I visited. So, I'm going to go there. I'm going to be the Bitcoin guy for Ecuador." >> Yeah. >> And I was there for about 6 months. And then within that time, it was very clear that like I went around and I gave I I paid tried to pay for everything with Bitcoin, like all the hostiles and all those people, right? And I'd help them back up the wallets. I'd break into college classrooms. a knock on the door and I would be like in every uh every

computer science class they have a different name for it there but uh the equivalent to computer science classes I knock on the door and be like hey can I tell people about Bitcoin I want to give everyone Bitcoin show them how to use the wallet and da da da and it was just like and I would say about 70% of the time they would actually let me in >> just interrupt their class with like a little random Bitcoin thing >> uh and uh that shows you a little bit about Ecuadorian education but Anyway, >> but then it's like >> it solved a problem. >> Yeah.

>> A genuine problem for them, right? Like the the whole tax with money leaving the country. So then you're like, "Yeah, this is tell me cuz this is actually important to >> Yeah. Oh, and and the computer science guys were eating it up. They would all talk to me after class and we had like interesting lunches after that, too. It was really fun. And I'd help everyone. I would actually give four people the money." Yeah. Right? And then have them send 50 cents to each other, right? And everyone create a wallet and send money to each other and distribute it while I'm telling them about why this technology is so interesting and yeah.

>> How did that feel? Was that like just giving you so much energy and fun and like yes, this is something useful and people are getting it like I get it. >> Absolutely. It was so much fun. But >> but >> very quickly uh about About four months into my six months while I was in Ecuador, it became clear that the government was going to make Bitcoin illegal. >> Okay. >> And um you know in Ecuadorian prisons they don't feed you, >> right?

>> Nonprofits feed you, not the prison. So like >> and your family is supposed to rem I didn't have family there. I couldn't I couldn't risk being the crypto guy in Ecuador anymore. Got it. Basically. >> So uh I left Ecuador. And uh and while I was in Ecuador though, there was a uh I signed up for the the first degree ever in digital currencies. >> Okay. >> So I was starting to take classes. It was less because I was a chemical engineer. I didn't feel like I had a really good in >> into the space.

>> Yeah. >> Not like the computer science guys and the devs. So I got this degree. It ended up being more of like an international finance degree than a tech degree. >> Okay. But I got to learn all of the like I learned a lot about how international banking works and how Bitcoin works at like the very base level. >> Okay. >> And uh I got really into Ethereum and Dows. >> Yeah. >> Uh and like at the time they called them DAC's like actually it was before Ethereum it was more like Bitshares and NXT and Mastercoin which later became Omni. Yes.

>> And like all these uh they call them Bitcoin 2.0, right? Uh and uh and so I actually wrote a white paper about a sharing economy for bikes. >> I called it uh a bike. I call it bike, but it was bi It was spelled B I K4E. >> Bicycles in kind for everyone. >> Beautiful. >> And the idea was that you could create a bic you could uh add your bicycle to the DAC network. >> Yes. And the DAO would then lock money behind your bike.

>> Yeah. >> That would be released as people rented your bike. >> Okay. >> So, you would get their rental income and extra tokens in the network. >> But a share of their rental income would then go to everyone who had tokens in the network. >> Okay. >> And uh the first bike within like hundreds of miles would get extra bonus points and there would be like a bootstrapping phase. So I developed this whole economy around creating a bike sharing network. >> Okay. a global bike sharing network. >> Yeah. >> Right. And so it was just a white paper though. Uh but I used that white paper to get a job at Sllocket.

>> So Slocket I wanted to get into the sharing economy. I thought there was a lot of opportunity there for crypto and it just seemed like a a beautiful space. >> So I took that white paper >> and I sent it along with a video of me just being me. Actually I was in Guatemala looking over Lake Atalan in the background. Right. >> Pictures. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I was just a nomad traveling to like cool spots. >> Yeah. >> And um and uh eventually Chris uh Chris Yens who uh who worked at Socket was the founder of Socket. He never read my white paper ever, but he did watch my video and I emailed him a bunch of times and and I was like, "Dude, I will work

for free. I will do whatever you want. I'm good at all sorts of things, you know? I just want to get >> just pick me. Let's go." And so I became the first employee of Socket. Y >> I was their community manager. >> Yeah. >> Uh I had the community manager experience from the Save Our Sonics organization. >> Yes. >> And uh and so then I started working for Slacket while finishing my degree. >> I um I I did all my stuff in Ethereum after that. Well, like there was one homework assignment >> that was like build a will, like a a smart contract will >> and everyone else did it in Bitcoin.

>> Yeah. And I was just laughing because I did it in Solidity >> and it was so easy >> and I don't even I'm not a developer. >> How old was Solidity at this point? >> Barely existed. I think Ethereum had just launched so we're probably talking one month. >> Oh wow. Okay. >> One month old. >> Okay. >> In fact, it was one of the first how to build a contracts in Solidity or whatever. And Alex Vanande >> Yes. >> Uh like I posted it on the Ethereum Reddit, right? And this is before SLocket was really big news before we even talked about the Dow so much. Yeah.

>> You know, we were still talking about just sharing economy stuff. And uh and Alex Vanisande was like so nice to me. >> He was like, "This contract is really great when it was just [ __ ] you know, and he was just like, "Here's encouraging." >> Yeah. Here's some nice ways to improve it, you know? And like back then, you know, everything was on Reddit. >> Yes. And just like Reddit today, it's just a [ __ ] hole, you know? It's just like people talking [ __ ] ch making fun of you. All when I posted it, I was like ready for the whiplash of like pain, right? Cuz I've seen, you know, I was in all the subreddits, you know, Monero, Litecoin,

Bitcoin, whatever. Right. And it's all just people [ __ ] >> So, you were bracing yourself for criticism. Okay. But instead, all I got was loveydovey good times, which only existed at the time in our Ethereum and our Dogecoin. Yes. >> Right. Those were like the two places that were nice to be. >> Okay. >> And the rest of the subreddits were just like horrible. Uh but the thing is our Ethereum was great because there was our ETH trader. >> Yes. >> And so all the [ __ ] happened where people are talking about money, >> right? and all the builders are in our Ethereum was like a safe space.

>> Yeah, it actually I think that was probably one of the that is one of the most underrated like things that Ethereum did to separate itself from the rest is just separating the money talk from the building talk. >> Okay, >> no other building system did that until Ethereum did that. And I really think that was its secret sauce to bringing in real builders that cared about doing something where they could share knowledge and stuff without all the like >> trader crap, you know?

>> Uh and uh Yeah. >> So you feel that was a really good onboarding for you to then I mean to your point >> Yeah. got Alex Vanesan in there like helping and cheering you on and telling you how to tweak and improve and >> took my thing that was like 50 lines of code and made it like 25 and just like but was really nice about it you know whereas if that would have been in arm and arrow right or something it would have been like dude that is [ __ ] let me show you how to do it you know okay right and so um that's when I knew it's like Ethereum is just great this is I love I I'll never be anywhere else I'll never be anywhere else This is this is my this is home.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And uh >> and then eventually, you know, we uh we started the DAO. So like Socket was trying to do sharing economy stuff >> and it was like smart locks, right? Like okay, put something in a locker, someone can buy it or rent it from you by sending money to that locker, it'll open up >> and then it opens. Yeah. >> Uh but we knew someone would put weed in a locker, right? >> So like it's like, okay, what jurisdiction do we want this network to be in? Okay. >> How about the Ethereum jurisdiction? Right. >> And so this was the motivation behind launching the DAO.

>> Okay. >> It was like we need some kind of higher jurisdiction to govern our network. We want uh some way to be funded not by VCs but by the community. >> Yes. >> Let's launch a decentralized autonomous organization that will eventually name itself later. That's why we call it the DAO because >> like TBD. >> Yeah. It was like a placeholder name and eventually the DAO will vote to name itself. Yes. >> Never did. We didn't get that far. Y >> but yeah. And then uh the DAO was way more popular than Universal Sharing Network, right? And so the DAO ended up becoming the largest crowdfunded project in the history of the world to that point.

>> Y >> uh really proved the story that Ethereum could be used for capital formation. >> Y >> and then three weeks later after the launch uh was hacked for $50 million. June 19th, I believe. >> Yeah. >> June 19th, 2016. >> Yeah. >> Uh the Yeah. >> What did that feel like? You were super frontline obviously. >> What did that feel like? You were doing the you were on the front line. You then organized the White Hat group to basically counterhack the hacker, etc.

What was that like to suddenly be in that position? >> You know, I was obsessed. I was obsessed with crypto. I mean, we we became Socket and the Dow became almost like >> the core thing that was happening in Ethereum. Yes. Right. It was the Ethereum community. Yes. >> So I felt like the outside like outside of the Ethereum Foundation I was the community organizer not for only the Dow but for Ethereum. >> Ethereum. Yes. >> And so I would go to bed looking at the Slack making sure everything was cool, no big issues uh or try to resolve the issues before going to bed. And I would wake up and I'd go to the Slack. And so

I was actually the first person to see the Dow was being hacked, right? or the at least the first person on Slocket because another guy was like, "Hey, Ether Scan is broken." Uh, this guy Mo uh, hey, I think Ether Scan is broken. It's like not showing it's showing the Dow's money is like less than it was, you know? >> So then I'm like, >> cuz I have a I almost have a degree in digital currency. I can read a block explorer really well, >> even though I'm just the community organizer. And I'm like, uhoh, no, man. That's not shit's not broken. Uh the Dow is being hacked, right? And so I DM left. I'm It's 6 in the morning, you know, and we're all in Europe. Uh except for Stefan. He's in uh he was in um UK.

He was still asleep, too. And so I'm DMing everybody. I'm calling I was actually at Kristoff and Simon's mom's house, the co-founders of Saka. I was at their their mom's house, uh uh Uma Yens. Uh, and uh, and so I'm like calling I asked Uma like for their phone numbers so I could wake them up, you know, cuz the cell phones weren't getting to them. And and I got uh I got Simon up. I couldn't I'm like go over to Kristoff's house, knock on his door, you know, stuff is really bad.

you know, and uh and so and then we got Vitalic on the line within probably 2 hours of that and we're talking hard forks and we're talking solutions and and really the feeling was there was no feeling. It was all action. There wasn't even time there wasn't time to think much less feel. >> Yes. >> It was just like >> find a solution. What do we need to do? Get everybody aware. Get everybody thinking. What the hell do we do? I I spend a lot of time meditating and doing like these kind of things, you know, and so it's like >> there's no voices in my head. It's just like action.

>> So you were fully present being able to manage all of that. >> Absolutely. Just like I mean from the outside I probably didn't look present. I probably looked zoned out in a computer just like this, >> you know? But like but like he's like, "Oh my god, that guy inside there was just like focus sis like coordination." Yeah. On the inside it looked like, >> you know, like probably like a really efficient telephone person, right? Yes. Putting calls through. >> Yeah. Exactly. [clears throat] Coordinating people, getting people together. I don't have time to be in the call with Vitalic. That's you, Kristoff.

Go, go, go. You know, now you guys do this, right? And uh and the night before uh Jordi Bellina. Yes. uh he actually um did an interview with me because he built liquid democracy for the DAO which is a really cool governance mechanism >> and uh and so he had like a really good understanding of the DAO infrastructure okay and everything okay >> and so I'm I called I had I was talking to him the night before I never got to write that blog post but I was very excited about it at the time and but uh and I'm calling him I'm like dude talk to Left Terrace you guys figure out the hack you know like do you I kind of just took control of the response.

>> Yep. >> For the the hack, right? Cuz um Kristoff and and Stefan and Simon as the co-founders of Socket from a legal side, they were like, "You're not doing this as a Socket employee." And I I had never even been paid >> I mean I had a contract to be paid but I wouldn't accept >> uh I I kind of never really I actually never signed it >> and uh and I never uh >> stealing your drafts. >> Yeah. Well, I I pretended to sign it and I kind of said that I did but I didn't.

>> Okay. >> And then they would they would be like, "Oh, no, wait. We can't pay you till you sign this." And I was like, you know, it was like a couple months before that. I was like, "Oh, I'll get to you know, but I just don't didn't want to particip I'm an anarchist. I don't want to participate in any of this legal [ __ ] I see. >> You know, and so even though they wanted to pay me, I didn't make it easy for them, basically. And so, uh, so I never got paid. >> Staying true to principles, actually. It's like, dude, we're trying to pay you. >> Yeah. >> Like, yeah, but I have a problem with signing this agreement between parties.

>> Exactly. Can't you just send crypto to my wallet? And they're like, "No, we [laughter] can't. You need to be paid like a normal human cuz we're a company and that's how companies work." >> They're like, "I disagree." >> Yeah. Okay. Well, we we'll get around to it, you know. Okay. And then um >> so technically you were not an employee cuz you didn't sign the thing. >> I was an you know, they considered me an employee and before I was I did sign paperwork uh that didn't have financial. I was a volunteer. I was their first employee with a zero salary. Got it.

>> And I did sign that paperwork and then there's a new paperwork for money and I just was like I don't really want to I I want I don't want money to be in that realm. I want money to be in the crypto realm, >> you know. And so um >> so yeah. So uh then I was doing all this coordination work not as Socket but just as uh Griff Green, right? >> Okay. And uh and so I was coordinating with the White Hack Group to well at the time we were called the Robin Hood group. Yeah. With Alexande Fabian and who we were close to because of the Mist Wallet and of course Alex was just like my hero. Uh and still is. I love that guy. [laughter] And >> I'm so sad he's not here.

>> I know. I tried. I Yeah, I tried. I He just doesn't want to leave Brazil and his family, you know. Good. Good for him. Uh, and so then we um we we like were we had it all set up to hack the DAO and I also coordinated getting like millions of dollars worth of DAO tokens so that we could hack the DAO efficiently. Yes. >> Uh from Wales and I got all the keys for different from different random people that had called split DAO cuz we needed like the people who called that function we needed their private key. Okay. And so I just messaged them and I was like, "Dude, can you give me your private key and uh also your ID so I know you're not a bad guy, you know, cuz we're going to

share this private key and like we're going to use it to hack the DAO and all this stuff, right? It was crazy crazy stuff." And so we had all the tools in place to hack the Dow and then we decided not to because well basically from a lot of people they wanted to be riskadverse and they didn't weren't sure if it was legal for them to hack the Dow, right? But from my perspective, I didn't care if it was legal. I thought that it would be better if it were messier because if we hacked the DAO right away, >> Yes. >> and we stole all the money, it would be pretty clean to say, "Hey, Dow token holders, you all get a 70% haircut.

>> The good guys rescued the money. The bad guy has the money. Okay, that's just how it is." >> Yes. >> You know, >> yes, >> whatever. But the hard fork was really the main solution, right? We were like a backup solution. >> Okay. >> Cuz the hacker stole >> about 30% of the DAO. >> Oh yeah. >> Which by the way, the DAO had 14% of all ether in existence. >> Yes. >> Right. So he had about 4% of the all ether in existence. >> You had >> and then we rescued 10. Yeah. >> But but if we just took that 10, you know, maybe they wouldn't do the hard fork. They just say like, "Hey, Doug Rollers got some money back. It's not that bad, right?"

>> Okay. >> Uh but we wanted that. So we waited until someone else hacked the DAO. So there would be Dow wars and like when one person hacked the DAO then we started hacking the DAO and we were just killing it. Right. But then lots of people started hacking the DAO. Okay. Right. And so there were like probably around 10 DO hackers. Uh some of them got very little happening on the same day. >> Yeah. All so the one Dow hacker and then the other nine all on the same day. all hacking the DAO for like three hours. Uh but we were ready for that and so we put ourselves in all the other Dows uh all the other hackers before they could

hack. We put ourselves in their Dows >> so that we could hack them later. >> Right? So we couldn't do that for the first DAO, but we did that for all the other Dows. We were prepared for that >> scenario. Okay. and we hacked. So then when we hacked the DAO, we then proceeded to hack all of the other Dows >> and they weren't ready for that. We also developed lots of interesting techniques of like screwing up their math cuz we had basically we had recreated the Dow hack in about 18 hours after the original hack, maybe less. Yes.

>> And then we found all sorts of other bugs in the DAO that we could exploit and we could like send little bits of DAO tokens that had like some other feature to them that was kind of crazy. >> Yes. >> And then that would mess up the attack contracts of other other Dows and stuff like that. >> Trojan horse. >> Yeah. We call them doped tokens, right? Uh we had all sorts of crazy techniques, right? Okay. And I'm kind of merging this big story into more concise scenario, but um either way, there were these Dow wars and uh we were able to hack all the other hackers and get the money back, but it was messy enough that it was very clear we needed to do the

hard fork. >> Yes. >> To like clean everything up and just rescue all the money for the Dell token holders. >> So >> then when the hard fork happened, we thought it was over, right? Yep. >> Great. you know, uh, all the DAO token holders get their money back. >> We're all good. Uh, but then we started hearing rumors about guy, this guy from Paloni X buying tokens on the open market, buying like the Ether Classic, which I was calling Dead Eth at the time. Dead Eth this this guy from Paloniex and other like investors from Paloni were talking to ETH Wales buying up tokens for

pennies, >> right? Old ETH tokens for pennies from developers right? >> And so they got this like big stack of ETC by doing these behind the behind the scenes deals. >> Yes. And uh and then they launched Ether Classic on Paloni X >> and I couldn't believe that Ether Classic could have value. >> It didn't make any sense. Right. >> At the time, this was before Bitcoin Cash, >> right? This was like the first big blockchain fork.

>> Yes. >> That created the airdrop fork scenario, right? Uh, and so Ether Classic somehow maintained value and we were too late by the time it was posted and all that stuff. We were too late to hack the DAO, the big bad DAO, the main dark DAO. >> Okay, >> because the timeline had passed. Uh, >> what is this timeline then? >> What are we talking how long after? So when when you um we actually did this crazy thing where we passed a proposal in the DAO. We found an interesting loophole where even though we weren't okay the way the hack works is uh the

DAO was originally maybe one of the names of the DAO would have been Genesis DAO. Yep. >> Because the way the Dow worked is that you could always split the DAO and create a subdow >> that would be separate from the DAO and drain money from the DAO and then but then there'd be new people from the from the Dow that would join the subdow. >> Yes. >> Right. >> Yes. >> And there was a few timelines. There's a 7-day split Dow proposal period >> and if during that 7 days you had to vote yes on that proposal to join the new DA. Okay. Right. And then there was a 28 day creation timeline where the people who called split dow could buy more tokens in that dowo.

>> Okay. >> Right. And so it was like the crowd sale for the dowo but it was for that subdow. >> Okay. >> But only the people who bought into the split dow could join there. >> Got it. >> And then after that 28 day period there would be another 7-day period to split the Dow or a 14-day proposal period to get money out of the Dow. >> Okay. >> Right. So this is why the hard fork could happen was because well money was locked in one contract for 35 days. >> Okay. >> So we had 35 days to move uh to do the hard fork before the ether would move to a new address. It would be locked there.

It's not like the hacker could take the ether out and just sell it on the open market. >> Right? And so because of that system uh after the hard fork once the hacker did another split dow to move it to a new dowo we couldn't join we had to join that split dow >> because you didn't have >> we had dark dow tokens so we could have joined his >> split I see >> but we didn't join in time we were 2 days late >> so we had the whole setup to hack him but we didn't think ether classic would be worth anything. So, we kind of screwed up there, you know. Uh, we could have, but what would have happened is then we would just be every 35 days there would be this weird hack thing

where we try to hack each other and like whoever went and it would be like this weird like stalemate forever ground >> which is which is why the hard fork happened in the first place was because these stalemates were the strategy and it would be such a distraction from everything that's happening in Ethereum. It's like, let's just hard fork it, >> stop all this madness, and move on. Okay. Right. But we could have actually kept doing that on Ether Classic. >> I see. >> And we just didn't. >> I think that >> that's a lot. I know this is a lot. So, >> yeah.

>> Two things. Cuz then you had the parity hack. >> Yes. >> A year later. >> About a year later. Yeah. >> About a year later. My question is, and you were again involved in that, and you were again with the hacking. What does that feel good when that happens to be in the middle of things and be able to solve things? Does it ever did it ever stress you out? >> You know, I wouldn't say it feels good. It doesn't feel good. It feels like responsibility, >> right?

>> It feels like, you know, with great power comes great responsibility. You know, I can be Spider-Man. You can be Mary Jane. You know, like we can we can go hack the DAO together, you know. Anyway, it's like uh it's just um sorry, it's the red hair. I just couldn't say it. Couldn't resist. Um >> but yeah, it it just felt like we were the people with the trust of the community for a long time. >> And to your point, it's that responsibility and that trust. >> They're looking at us. We have to sort this out. >> Yeah. Like after the DAO, I had all the connections and all the coordination power, right? and Jordy and Barry White Hat and Le Harris and like and Taylor Monahan and there's this other guy Henry

and and or sorry Harry and uh just like even even um Hudson Jameson helped out in the white group a lot and and Alexande and lots of people like you know would just jump in and help us do things and because we had this trust >> there was like uh an opportunity to help you know and people would call us and tell us oh Oh my god, there's this problem. So there's the $200 million parody multiscake hack. There were lots of ICOs that had issues. >> Okay. >> And we, you know, >> so then you were as that assembly of people to your point with the coordination mechanism already >> Yeah.

>> tried and tested. >> Exactly. >> You would be called in >> to sort [ __ ] out. >> Yeah. Exactly. And almost it was almost always just volunteer basis. We' take tips. We didn't charge people. It didn't really become it wasn't really sustainable, you know, especially with a brain like Jordy Bolina cuz it was really me and Jordy as the you know, I was like the coach and he's like the quarterback, you know, and then we'd bring other people on the team. Uh and and so it was like, you know, eventually it just kind of died out because it didn't make sense. uh we just weren't business people, you know, >> and um >> maybe but now Seal 911 does all that work and and as far as like how it felt, I just I don't know. Maybe I'm just like

a a numb dude without good I don't feel my feelings. I don't know. Like, you know, I don't I I want to answer your question, but I'm like I don't know. It just felt like something I had to do, you know? It just felt like, you know, it's like, why does an ant carry that piece of bread to the to the ant hive, you know? I don't What's he feeling? I have no [ __ ] clue, man. I just know I got to bring the bread. >> You are not an ant, Griff. Okay, it's fine. Totally fine. I feel like you felt like you feel like one inside. You're an ant.

>> In those moments, it just feels like instinct. >> Yes. >> And action. It doesn't feel like >> Right. And that's an important realization, right? because you did just spring into action. Let's go. Let's do this. >> Yeah. And that's what allowed us to do what we would do because we'd hack [ __ ] really fast, you know? We wouldn't we wouldn't ask for permission like we would talk we wouldn't call a lawyer, you know? >> Right. [laughter] Right. >> We would just do it. >> Let's just organize and do it. >> Yeah. Let's just steal the money, you know. >> Do you still do you feel in everything that you do and have done since is that does that persist that way for you to do things? Not necessarily in terms of like never mind lawyers all of that but this drive

and maybe sense of responsibility because this is your home and you want >> the current system to be replaced and you have that still I think belief that it can and it should and it will. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean absolutely. I mean, I I I don't feel like I have to be so responsible anymore because like there are much more professional skilled people that are doing way better jobs than I ever could, you know, like steal 911. If you ever get hacked, if you ever get hacked on Telegram, >> message

ecore 911_bot. you know, if anything bad happens, Telegram takeover, just like anything, uh, you're like, "Oh, I think this smart contract might be vulnerable or or uh, you know, someone's going to sue someone, I don't know, whatever, anything bad in Ethereum." Yes. Message Seal and tell them about it. There's like a very great coordination system for all this kind of incident. >> Brilliant people behind it. >> Incredible people. Incredible people. Uh, volunteers also. Um, so like you know they're way you know they have the same horrible business model as I did and like and they the same values but with much better skills. So like uh you

know I'm not a developer. What am I supposed to do? You know like >> coordinate coordinate >> coordinate coordinate. Yeah. >> Okay. Um anything that you I know we've talked about a lot and you've shared a lot. Is there anything that you've never said publicly or shared publicly or wanted to but didn't? I mean, you're pretty outspoken. >> I never said already. I never said that. I actually made a lot of money buying and selling grow equipment on Craigslist. I tell you that. I never said that one. Uh that [laughter] was a first. Um but I did actually. That was one of my more profitable businesses. I uh cuz I had a buddy in Belleview and I

was in Seattle and anytime we kind of set prices and we buy a bunch of grow equipment and then when someone was below our prices we'd go buy it, you know, and haggle them even lower cuz usually they got cop busted by the cops or something. >> You're not a good businessman. That sounds >> well arbitrage. It wasn't bad. But you know the problem the reason I'm not a good businessman is cuz like I'm more valuedriven than money driven. I'm just not a money person. >> Yeah. Okay. you know, like I I retired with $60,000 worth of gold and silver, >> right? And I traveled the world and I was very conservative, trying not to spend so much money.

>> And you know, as long as I have 60K, >> I'm like, dude, what more money do I need? >> Okay, >> you know, and I don't think that's a normal perspective. I think there is this like human wants are unlimited. But I just really try hard not to get stuck in the quantitative value of things and really focus on the qualitative value that can be produced. And that's why I'm not a good businessman because most businessmen are looking at the KPIs on the spreadsheet. >> And I look at the KPIs everywhere but the spreadsheet, you know, and that doesn't end up working out to be sustainable on the spreadsheet.

[laughter] So um >> so the spreadsheet and and this is a good kind of segue. What still inspires you to to continue? Cuz like we were talking off air, you know, we've been doing this for a a minute. What still inspires you? >> My driving force has been the same this entire time. I truly believe that we can build something better than governments. I am 100% convinced ever since my heart was broken by the Seattle SuperSonics.

[laughter] I have been a raging anarchist and I just have a chip on my shoulder. We're taking those [ __ ] down, you know? And so >> Seattle Super Sonics, this is what they like launch. >> Clay Bennett, Howard Schultz, all you [ __ ] No. Okay. So anyway, uh Howard Schultz was the CEO of Starbucks who sold the team to Clay Bennett, the guy from Oklahoma City who [ __ ] won a championship last year. Anyway, >> anyway, not that you were harboring anymore. You've totally detached.

>> I mean, I honestly have mostly detached, but it's funny, right? It is. >> So, but um I really believe that we can do better. I so my theory of change >> yes >> is that um when governments fail to provide value that society demands people start nonprofits. >> Nonprofits are the free market solution to governments. Right. >> Y >> but even the word nonprofit just pisses me off because they create so much value for society. Right. It's not on a spreadsheet. Right. But the value creation is there.

>> Yep. And I just know that this technology has the power to make nonprofits profitable, but I don't know how to do it. You know, I know it's there. Like I know it is there. And GTH is like a space for experimenting with that stuff, but it's been years of failure, you know, and so it's very sad, you know. It's like uh that really is the uh that is the motivation. And um but a lot of our failure is because the infrastructure still doesn't actually care about real people, you know, like um I spent a lot of time in this in the security space.

>> Yes. >> Because it's not safe. Crypto isn't safe. Like we're supposed to be better than the banks, right? Do you know anyone with a bank account that got fished? >> Yeah. >> Do you know anyone with a bank account that has some currency that went to zero? Do you know anyone with a bank account who was like, you know, working with a business and then the whole thing fell through? Like, no. But I know every single person in crypto has had that experience. Every single one. I don't know anyone who's been in crypto for 5 years and hasn't lost money to some scam one way or another, you know, unless they're just buying ETH and Bitcoin on exchanges, not doing anything interesting right?

>> Yeah. And to your point, it's that, right? and and thank you for having that moment of vulnerability because I can see how much this matters to you. And I think this is one of the key potentially frustrations and pains that we have and what you just said, you know, that it's there. It's just how do we get to where it's actually reality and we don't continue to have these failures in security in what we're using the technology for in how we're interpreting that profit cuz if we still

do it by the spreadsheet >> yeah I mean I would say on giveth about 30% of the funds that has been raised on giveth has been lost to either speculation problems, >> right? >> But honestly, probably more than half of it scams, fishing. >> Yeah. >> Uh, you know, putting putting sending money to the right address on the wrong chain. [snorts] >> Very common, you know, cuz we use all these >> easy to do, especially when you're just getting started. I mean, my god, we have friends who get hacked and they've been around for 10 years.

>> I got hacked six months ago, >> right? I clicked a bat of proof trying to get into a hacked Discord, right? You know, like and I'm a security guy. So like I mean what is the hope for other people? Yeah. >> You know, so I I just >> this technology has the power built in. >> Yeah. >> But we're I I feel like we're not prioritizing the actual value creation. we've just gone like so much of the mind share has been into building efficient casinos.

>> And now it's hard. It's also true though that that space that group of people who were excited about it in 2013 even though they were 80% or maybe 70% of the mind share was really like we're going to build something better than governments. We're going to like build like a a parallein police, right? separate society with crypto that was actually the dominant mind share in 2013 >> and that group has gotten larger in numbers every year. There is no bare market for that group like lots of people see the promise in this in this technology >> and and there is like a a so there is a growing movement but um but it just gets

drowned out. >> Yeah. And it also doesn't have any real money behind it when there's so much more money in the casinos and and it's just like uh you know it's very sad and and it's okay you know because honestly we've tried a lot of things and the infrastructure layer the like app layer the like the user experience for a normal human still isn't there y >> with this technology. So if if I want to build an economy that can appreciate the value that taking care of the homeless would provide, I wouldn't succeed because I can't get people to use the wallets. Not safely. I I you know, so what's the point?

>> I remember speaking of this, I remember a project at a hacking project at ETH Denver in 2019 that was focused on the homeless. And I'm like, >> "Yeah, >> this is so early." >> Yeah. >> It's never going to work. But it's again, the fact that the idea was there, but there is still that bridge for us. >> I mean, the magic of this technology is that you can build an economy around any value creation.

>> Yes. >> Right. And that's why I know I know there's a way to appreciate the value that nonprofits create. >> Yeah. And if we do that, if we actually could make nonprofits profitable, we wouldn't need governments. People creating value for the environment or for society at large in general in any dimension. >> They would be able to have a startup like any other tech startup. >> They raise capital, they create value, and then they have an exit for the founder. And we could bring entrepreneurial attitudes into addressing the real problems that we have as a society. You know, how is it that I mean, the homelessness is one of my favorite issues because I >> hung out with a lot of homeless people

while I live in my van, you know, >> like I was I would chose homelessness life, you know? So, it was like a different thing. And >> like [snorts] they're they're cool people, you know? They're they're they just have they have problems in their life. They have trauma and like uh and if you look at San Francisco, it's one of the wealthiest cities in the US and it has the worst homelessness problem. I it's not danger. It's not safe to walk many of the streets, you know, >> and it's just you see people, you just drive around and you see people doing crack in the in the street, you know, it's like how is this possible that the more wealth we have, the the lower the value are that we have for society, you know? It's like it's so backwards, but it's cuz it's not on the spreadsheet.

>> [snorts] >> And I think with crypto, we could put it on the spreadsheet, but you know, the people that really want to help the homeless, that are intrinsically motivated, they can't use crypto, >> right? >> So, what's the, you know, like that's where we're at. It's been it's been 15 years, 16 years since crypto's been around, and we still don't have it safe enough for normal people to use. >> Yeah, >> we're going to get there. I mean, we'll get there eventually, but I don't know. I don't think we missed the boat. I I think we will get there. And I mean, >> the Dow has had a bunch of leftover money.

>> Yes. >> And so now we're staking it and using it for this. Exactly. >> To actually provide, you know, fund security projects that can make, you know, because I feel like we spend so much energy on security. >> Yep. >> But we don't spend enough energy on safety. >> Interesting. The wallets are all secure. >> Yeah. >> But they're not. >> But the safety of using Yeah. The secure thing. >> It's like driving on a onelane road with no guardrail. That's actually two ways, you know, like it's safe. It's secure.

The road is secure. The pavement is there, >> but the driving is not safe. >> It's not safe cuz if a car comes this way, you know, you swerve off the there's no guardrail, you go off the cliff. Yeah. >> Right. Yeah. or you go into the wall and you smash a head head-on collision. Like that's basically crypto right now. >> And we need guard rails. We need two-lane roads. We need some support for normal people. And we need to keep it non-custodial because we have the technology to actually make it safer than banks. >> Yeah. >> We could copy everything banks do and make it non-custodial where a bank can't steal your money.

>> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. So, it could be safer than the banks. And it's been able to be that way for a long time. And now with account abstraction, it's like nobrainer to be safer and easier than the banks to use, >> but I still don't really see any adoption there. You know, that there are wallets that try to I I tried to launch a wallet for that. Uh there's like uh Bonus is is a great wallet. There's lots of even Coinbase's wallet just like custodial wallets are really good but like um you know how do they make money where is the value right and >> it's still thinking about it from with the old perspective right and

to your point looping back to the spreadsheet >> yeah it's all about the spreadsheet >> it's all the about the spreadsheet and also how many columns like the columns and the rows in the spreadsheet have not changed And that's the issue. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean and and the for me tokenization and trying to figure out how to build economies that can enter the spreadsheet. >> Yeah. >> But still appreciate that qualitative value. >> Yes.

>> You know, it's that transfiguration between like qualitative value to quantifi quantitative value. Like that's the magic of crypto that we can do where you can build economies around this because this is look at Bitcoin. Yeah. Right. Bitcoin is the first example of this actually happening. >> Anyone in the world you could be in Africa, Asia, you could be in Antarctica. You can create a Bitcoin address and receive money from anyone else in the world. >> And this is like the roads. But it wasn't built off donations. It wasn't built off taxes. It was built off by it was built by creating an economic system.

>> Yep. >> Creating supply and demand. >> Demand. >> So there is I mean for homelessness like how much value is lost by business owners from land value and customers, right? And and like just economic value lost because there are a couple homeless guys hanging out on the corner, right? You know, uh this is like a huge economic issue that could be solved for like if they actually addressed the problem of homelessness, it would be cheaper. They would make more money.

>> Yes. >> Right. >> It's changing people's minds and mindset and the ability to think about things in a different way. And I think it's that calcification of a certain way of looking at things versus to your point the flexibility of looking at it. Hey, look at it from this side. It's actually more profitable and it works and it helps and D.

>> Yeah. >> Okay. We're gonna get there. >> You're good. >> The rant forever. >> No, I know. This was fun. I hope you enjoyed it. >> I loved it. I could always hang out with you, Simona. I mean, you really let me talk. I like it better when we go back and forth a little harder, but >> this was good. Listen, I I got to hear a lot of things that I didn't know about you and really understand again like understand what still drives you and understand the fact that the values are more important to you than any of the other things that we get lumped with.

And I think you know that is the human story. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Thanks Simony and thanks for doing the podcast. It's fun. >> Thank you. Thank you, Greff.