Infrastructure Solutions Available for Crypto Custody, Trading, and Payments

Transcript

so that you don't uh feel feel asleep uh my name is Paulo guio I work at sdx as a senior Business Development uh today we will discuss about crypto infrastructure and we heard this morning a lot of uh example of uh banks that have successfully uh integrated uh digital Assets in their offering uh that of course brings certain challenges uh and uh uh with you know companies such as the one that we have on stage today um these challenges can be mitigated uh so the goal of the panel of today is really to discuss about you know how these uh

players can support can facilitate it the life of institutional players such as Banks to adopt digital assets so I will start umbe with a short introduction about yourself and uh the company that you will work for Star be with cing thank you very much okay um thank you I'm coming from Ripple metaco and we are providing Solutions and infrastructure for financial services mostly um for companies which want to go into the digital AET space and I specifically focus on the product side of Meto where we are providing custody infrastructure uh hello everyone my name

is IIA vov I'm CEO and co-founder of U hodler so we're fintech company uh with multiple crypto toed products so we started uh development in 2017 with strong focus on retail and we have built a number of crypto to field products and starting from last year we decided to share our expertise and our infrastructure with others especially with uh small mean-size Banks and other ftech companies without crypto expertise so basically we connected to dots so our expertise on retail side and customer demand from from other institutions happy to be here thank you good afternoon everyone uh my name is Frank Feld I'm running sales inia for TS TS is an Institutional

technology provider providing access to the digital ecosystem by one single entry so we provide U trading technology for both buy site and sell site um and uh here excited to be part of this panel discussion good afternoon everybody Adrian albertini I'm head of strategy and product uh for Ledger Enterprise for those that are not familiar Ledger Enterprises the Enterprise arm of Ledger uh for those that are not familiar with Ledger hopefully a few of them here they have a 6.5 million retail customer we uh custody about 20% of the toal crypto assets on the Enterprise side we're focusing on institutional offering and the institutional offering we provide an

NSM based uh Sol solution that basically uh has two purpose the first one making sure to secure your assets and provide C Storage and second uh providing multiple services including our API which will be part of today's panel as we would like to talk about the new offering for trading trade link and uh thanks CVA for the invite hi everyone uh so I'm Victor I'm the CMO of Taurus so what do we offer we have two main activities one is infrastructure business where we offer custody and tokenization Technology mostly to Banks um the second one so we are regulated by the finma so we have a

Securities firm license and we operate an OTF an organized trading facility which is TDX to actually trade uh both tokenized Securities and cryptocurrencies thanks um so I mean your company are involved on a daily basis uh with institutional clients Banks uh both both in Switzerland but also uh outside uh what are according to you the main challenges that institutional clients are facing when they decide to implement digital Assets in their offering and how your company is able to support them and to mitigate these challenges who wants to start I can start using my CVA head so

this conference is a great illustration of it so the main challenge is education and sharing and expertise and experience right so customers of traditional banks are pushing their Banks just to to start this kind of offering right and many of them are still uh hesitating or struggling or uh still trying to find the best solution etc etc so the key to success is just to again connect dots and then share the best practices and uh listen to Professional Service Providers right and again this conference is a great illustration of what is needed in order to uh speed up this Evolution speed up this uh adoption I agree to that yeah I think

it's key for all of us to uh be active let's say in this space by education education each other let's say on what's possible what's needed and how we can evolve this uh this new industry and new asset class I think from one of the challenge what we face as a tech provider is what we hear at least from our clients across the globe is that they were looking for risk tools tools let's say how can manage risk from what they are used to have let's say from the threat fight days and see how can we manage risk How We Do we have visibility in on our assets how clients are behaving and so on so I think one of the key things there is that we should explore and understand what people are needing and help each other to build those kind of solutions and provide them

across the industry yeah I totally agree and I spent my day with Engineers so I like to simplify things and I see like 2022 being a defining moment for crypto so we we solve the problem of custody with with with crypto and that was the first wave so now we can say quite confid confidently that we can secure assets at a pretty good level with you know in our in our solution is multiz uh similar to multi signature yet not multi signature and is HSM based so we have the hardware enforcement on the different rules and the segregation between the players that that that will operate on the platform so we we feel

quite confident that we can secure the assets and it's proof the last 6 years plus that we've been in business with zero compromise and zero mismanagement we are the most secure solution and I think overall the industry is pretty secure now we're facing the second problem which is what I call exchange risk and what is in traditional Finance called counterparty risk we haven't yet fix that problem if I exchange Bitcoin with pyo for for ethereum if I send Bitcoin point there is no guarantee that he's going to send me the ethereum it's a silly example but kind of like picture what is the problem that we have not fixed yet where there is you know any simultaneous exchange there is no solution currently that really satisfy

completely uh the managing of that risk so we are focusing on that with trade link and we're happy to discuss more later and tomorrow we're going to have a webinar on that so I think that's the problem that our industry needs to to fix now cther just just to add to that I think when I look from an operational perspective as a bank it's also important to look at it from a what does actually change on an operational and Technical level because digital assets work differently than traditional assets and to understand through education but also to to find out okay which processes which it landscape items do I actually need to change where do I need to to change certain things or also change roles and responsibilities to be able to process digital assets for example

because you don't have a t plus2 settlement anymore after a trade just those operational hurdles to actually overcome and and also lose the fear to actually tackle that last one because a lot A lot has been say um the way we look at it also so you have the custody brick but also to tokenization angle and in the end at least from our point of view and our deep belief is that custody and tokenization are the two faces of the same coin because at some point for cryptocurrencies so you can do just you just need a custody solution but if you deal with toiz Securities it's important also to have this token this tokenization layer either to deploy a smart contract for the issurance or the

interaction with a smart contract with the servicing and this is where it becomes a bit more technical but without getting into too much subtlety and I will probably go later it's very important to um to really have and work with the same team te because sometimes you have the custody team sometimes you have the tokenization team they don't always talk to each other but in the end they want the same so that's a bit paradoxical but that will be for me if we start really to have this integrated Vision uh probably it will do there will be a lot of progress especially when it comes to digitization of Securities which is what we're looking into interesting um I think both Adriano and

Katherine you you mention uh security I mean I think here we are dealing with a new asset class which require certain level of security so if for some reason uh you know the the custodian get acted or uh there is an internal fraud the assets are gone there is no uh no one's to call there is no way to recover the assets so I think especially for um the the the the St here the the custody uh technology provider uh security is a key aspect can you maybe elaborate bit more you know which technology you put in

place how can your clients feel comfortable in uh you know uh basically handling the the security through through your Solutions sure um I'll go first we are fighting who goes first um if we think about security for for C from a custody perspective I think we can also divide it into different layers um the first layer can certainly be Key Management because it's the piece which is very special to digital assets and you want to make sure that your keys are extremely secure but then on top you also have a governance layer where you can Define um what approval levels do you need what access levels do you need

what do you want to put in place as an institution um in terms of security to access access the keys and to use the keys to move your assets um on maybe on on a side if I paint the picture of that you also have a lot of connectivity from custody to the external World thinking about the external world as blockchains thinking about the external world as trading venues or any other third party service you want to make sure that those connectivities are extremely secure and that data is not being manipulated or changed or getting lost in transition when you are moving it to a different component and I think the last piece which is probably nearly the most important but often a bit neglected is

you also want to make sure if you have an extremely secure setup and you have defined all your governance procedures and everything you want to make sure that you don't have a single point of failure someone who can actually just go and change the rules or go and create his own direct access to the keys so that you that you also eliminate this super admin problem on top of that yeah and I think just to add to that and I completely agree with everything you just said uh on the key materials that's been our bread and butter been eight years doing this so from a multi- authorization also some some solution don't have segregation of Duties we enforce it at the hardware level so an administrator cannot that set the rules cannot have access to

operate on the platform and vice versa so you want the segregation enforce at the hardware level that's what we do and then there is a third component which we recently introduced that you know very often is not spoken about which is third party being integrated into the the platform so if you open up an API now you can have third party building on your platform and how do you manage that like how do you build that security into the Hardware security framework and that's basically what has been the last five months uh Focus for us um just briefly because I don't want to take the whole time but one thing that is crucially important when you're talking about trading and collateral pledging is making sure that the state

of certain balances is up to date so if somebody is trading how do you know that that's the state how do you ensure with the same security of you know the hardware enforcement that that state is correct and is not change because when some value based on some value is determined how much uh people are expected to trade or how much buying power they have to trade you want to make sure that that value cannot be changed because you can only imagine the different ways is it can be manipulated and the security bridge that can come because of that so that's our Focus right now that's our engineering uh uh Challenge and where where we spend the most

time and then to add a bit on the security topic I'm going to take an angle with the HSM versus NPC so um we do both but and everyone uh Also let's say that we'll be able to support it but I think it's important to understand one thing so HSM so you use a Hardware security module where you start the private key within it NPC multiparty computation so basically think of it as a cloud where you explode the key in like three four five pieces that you call chards the way to do MPC properly basically to make sure that you avoid some risk some collusion risk between between different parties is first to have each sh between different

segregated data centers manag also by the segregated operational team so if you want to do NPC basically on the on premise setup it can take a lot of effort to do it properly so it's also something to really keep in mind that's why today HSM is so popular within Banks because this is a technology that they know and that would be more straightforward to deploy with less resources less resource intensive at least I'm commenting more under on premise setup because after obviously can be deployed with a more Cloud kind of system and I mean I think to to go back to your point you know all this might seems very complicated and that's why it's

important that uh Banks uh and institutional clients approach uh company like yours to get support in uh all these uh uh topics because they are very important and uh um highly relevant for their business but they can Outsource uh this knowledge to players that have Decades of experience and they probably you know U helped and support similar company uh to set up uh their business yeah exactly so uh as we discussed in the morning there are five layers uh speaking about

web banking landscape and the of course if we look at the top of the chart I presented in the morning where we see traditional Banks they basically don't care about MPC or any other strange for them words they care about the the service provider right and that's why they're working with the only trusted service providers and this is how it should be right because if we make some parallels to traditional world so basically we don't care about what kind of paintings are used on the bills right of Swiss Franks we know that we have Sika right in loan we know that they're good enough to manage uh you know security measures and everything when they're printing PR supplying um

different kind of pants to different central banks but again so central banks and Banks do not care about the these paintings the same is here right and our mission is to really aggregate all these Technologies and pack them in a format understandable by end users and by end users I mean uh like front end bank and Retail customer behind thanks a lot Frank of course Talos is not involving custody however for uh digital asset trading there are certain risks that uh Banks needs to be aware of can you maybe highlight uh the most important risk that institution client needs to be

aware of and how Talos can uh support them to keep this risk under control sure thing um I think it's key is interoperability I mean it's same actually what we're saying here right I mean it's connecting I mean most of you guys probably have let's say one two or even more service providers how you make sure let's say that they can talk to each other and the correct way with proper standards uh mitigating risk understanding actually the protocols and how it's being done so I think key in that uh from that perspective is that you a work with uh people who understand that SATA technology understand that say the the needs of that technology and work with um risk metrics where we can leverage let's say uh or eliminate risk

uh positions uh throughout the industry so uh both with the custody providers or if the payment providers or if it's let's say the exchanges or the OTC desk itself make sure that we make an Institutional crate environment uh where we can eliminate those risk combined uh is our role is there centralized because we're let's say the centrer point point where we connect all the participants here at the table uh but key is that we need the information from our partners to make it happen and get the understanding from our clients what they need and how they see it yeah and I think that's that's uh important also for custody provider such as I ledger to have this kind of connectivity uh to uh Tech provider that

are in that sense we speak with Frank quite quite often exactly I as I mentioned before you know when we open our API and and we start to be comfortable with expon exposing sorry our API to external consumer then the the number of use cases use cases can really explode right and even if we stay within the trading uh space and our objective is minimization of counterparty risk which is something that in traditional Finance has been tried and failed for God knows how many years I'm actually writing a Blog on that because and eventually will come into a book because it's it's probably like hundreds of years um I think even

if you tackle want to tackle just that one solution will not fix everything you would need to provide a platform a framework that will open up uh the opportunity for integration with services like Talos and other services in the industry that together address that problem we have a unique opportunity because with the platform that we have available in the market today we can significantly reduce counterparty risk to a level that we couldn't even imagine but we need to really push the boundaries of our technology and and and work together in the industry to to make it happen I maybe from from your perspective since uh you are in both

shoes like how do you see this like uh uh connection with trading and custody and uh how uh Bank should also understand importance to have an integration in place um both are essential elements of the final product so if you have just custody but why do you need just custody we're not speaking about getting some stones and putting them somewhere right so uh it's a big puzzle so you need to have custody you need to have liquidity you need to have some execution engines right you need to have different kind of coins tokens utilities behind behind them right so uh when we put everything together we get

final product so that's why it's very very important and it's very good that we have some strong trend of collaboration of custody providers liquidity providers and and product providers like for example we have a few Integrations of our products with ledger so uh End customer who who who like to keep using noncustodial wallet right Hardware wallet uh can simply access to our products from uh Ledger your life interface this is another illustration of uh the importance of like combination of different pieces in order to to Really deliver really valuable product to to the end end user so yeah maybe maybe to add to that it's

a it's a great example how we are trying to basically open up to the 6.5 million users the ability to access venues that otherwise they would not be able to access so services like udler really help in that transition from you know traditional venues into deeper liquidity that you know traditional retail player cannot access today so it's a really interesting uh challenge that we're trying to solving to solve there and actually it's it's a very solid Trend I think these kind of technologies will challenge traditional Banks to somehow integrate non-custodial approach to traditional banking services which is very very interesting Trend yes talk about sorry Katherine you wanted

I think it it also shows a little bit where we do have still the challenge in in today's digital acid world right we have lots of silos which are not seamlessly connected so for a bank to choose what to do and to decide where to go is difficult because of that as well yeah talking about that um I mean we we have seen in the past few months um you know bit Bitcoin ETF approve in the states uh you know major Swiss banks entering the space um as well uh you know International Group uh yday there was announcement of dut bur so what are according to you the major

trends that um we you foreseeing having an impact especially on institutional clients when we are talking about digital assets adoption Victor I would say two or three so number one those Trends depend on the region because this is very different for instance in the US you have sub 121 that prevents some US Bank to actually custody crypto assets because of capital requirements that's how you end up having 90% of the ETF being wiin base um so it it might change but it takes time from a regulatory point of view and we we'll know this in Europe it's uh it's moving so people would say if so we have

MAA we have the regime pillot that will help so far where we see a lot of traction is really the Middle East it's very Dynamic and I think the regulatory framework really pres plays an important role the second thing I think that is critical and each time we have banking client asking us about this about this because again when you enter digital asset you can either enter through custody of crypto or custody of tokenized asset tokenization and one of the question they keep asking is when you toonize Securities which um Which smart contract should you use and here it all goes back to the standardization question so you have the ERC 3643 from the token the T-Rex you have the ERC 1,400

1044 from polyat securitize you have the CMT here in Switzerland that probably this is the most commonly standard used but when you talk to the team they don't know which one they should use and then you have working group at a global level trying to identify the pros and and how basically we can encourage basically even those banking clients to adopt those technology and this this text really sometime I think that's so regulatory standardization and maybe I can ask a last one uh which is critical is you have several Banks working with private blockchain public blockchain you have always this

discussion and it goes back to the point of interoperability so you have many banks that will deploy I don't know hyperledger B Network to for whatever the use case is but you need to keep in mind that after it's only available to the bank so if they want to connect and to basically bring scale you will have to build Bridge so after when you bridge which kind of bridge will you use is it lock and mint is it mint and burn so you have a lot of technical question that keeps coming up that's still preventing this broader adoption and basically once we have this interoperability standardization and basically regulatory framework being solved uh that will be really accelerating the

scaling so basically uh you believe that also with you know institutional adoption uh these topics hopefully will be uh some point they have to be taken they have to be it's like the cash leg so you have the security leg that you reconize but after you don't have still a digital currency so the cash lag has not yet been tokenized are you using a tokenized deposits a cbdc when the centr will come what will be intermediary so you have many still obstacles but it's getting there so that's the good news excellent Katherine you want want to go next sure um looking looking at it from maybe just a different angle but to the

same problem today we still have a lot of fragmentation because we don't have the standards yet we don't have everywhere the regulatory framework but getting there having more and more jurisdictions which are looking at at okay how do we actually also align to other continents or other countries in how we build up the framework I think with more and more institutional adoption we also see more and more that not everyone is doing everything anymore from the full full value chain but that you have more special specialization along the value chain that not everyone um will cover the full life cycle or not everyone will do build up every capability required for everything but that we have more and more also service

provision amongst each other which then goes back to we need connectivity between the different players to actually make it a functioning ecosystem which can be successful yeah maybe I go next go you first now it's more in um in addition to the institutional adoption right it's um it also means um for each institution it means different things right if you're a hedge fund it's about trading if it's a pension fund it's about investment if you're a bank you're probably more like servicing your customer from a custody or payment uh fat perspective so um that on top of let's say on the different jurisdictions or regulatory uh Pockets like us or emia

or APEC I think that combined is already challenge in itself and uh depending also the use case how people are interacting with this ecosystem yeah just to add to that completely agree and I think that the the stable coin space is being is very active right now now like different provider are coming out with new stable coins usdt continue to to drive so shouldn't be forgotten is up there top three uh especially in South America the market is exploding uh especially for payments so I agree I think we heard it two times that is regional based uh one thing that I wanted to add is about the ETF and coinbase kind of concentrating the custody of the underlying crypto assets I think I mean I I spent 15 years

in traditional trading and on the portfolio management side building a um technology platform for for for Traders and one main rule is never put your all your basket in one in one in one sorry all your in one basket and uh that's what we're doing now so I think uh you know we're going to see distribution of risk hopefully and that could be a great opportunity and partially could come just in regular custody partially will come to solution like of Exchange uh which I think will will still play a major role there is a lot of debate about you know how of exchange will develop but I think is still front and center to at least the the the the

institutional trading space because it's a problem that is not been solved and as we know technology fits the best when there is an unsolved urgent problem and that's where we have one so yeah absolutely agree just maybe one one point to add um just one simple word standardization so we're slowly getting some standards standards for custody standards for connections to liquidity providers uh even stable coins is some kind of a standard already right even like uh we have some interesting use cases where Visa is is testing uh settlements and stable coins right it's also some kind of a standard uh of course nowadays we still have some some flexibility let's put it this way but

it's a it's really uh uh like a way to to get some standards standards for any kind of connections between different service providers and uh financial institutions and I think that that will come of course with you know more adoption with more you know uh mature and uh um you know sophisticated players that will enter into the industry uh maybe uh Victor you you mention that taus of course is involved with the digital sec security as well as um let's call it cryptocurrency custody how do you see you know these two uh business line developing where do you see like uh

the demands coming especially from from bank and between Securities and cryptocurrencies yes yes first first angle is you need to really understand that basically from a regulatory regime those are two different asset so the regulatory framework will be different on the two so the entry point can be different honestly you have most of the systemic bank will not touch cryptocurrencies they will say tell you I want to toonize to do asset to perform asset tokenization Global custodian basically will try to digitize all their process blockchain being one part of the process that they will Implement internally

um Switzerland the big advantage that we have is FMA has been is very Progressive and supportive that's why we are all here and we're able to have this discussion and that's why even the big Champions were actually Swiss uh and the industry is so mature we continue to lead the way because now you have also for instance to support cryptocurrency with a staking the regulatory regime getting clearer and clearer it's not yet perfect but it's getting there Securities so since February 2021 you have a Swiss Le DLT so in Switzerland recognize Ledger based Securities to make it very simple one tokenized share gives you the same economic and social right as one traditional share so it's there but after so in Europe you have

the pilot pilot regime but it's not yet there because you need to apply for license with the dtss so it takes time so again the biggest blocker so far to adoption is the regulatory framework and still after when you look at Switzerland everything is there so we even have the secondary Market with TDX which is like where actually you can as an issuer as a I can digitize my share and admit it for trading but it still takes time to understand what are the real benefits talking to the issuer and it goes back to the initial Point education so you need to explain what are the benefits repeat it repeat it but you need more uh but when it comes

to the global view it's really regulatory being the pain Point yeah any other comments on the topic okay yeah it's a I would say tricky questions and I think uh um I mean as as a as a infrastructure provider uh you need to be able to uh response or give solution to uh demand coming from both sides maybe just just adding a little point on that that sometimes we try to push solution where there is no interest so as an industry we should do something a little bit better to understand what

is the pain points of the client and addressing for that and that's that's from Ledger perspective how we really shifted because you know we are mostly Engineers so we spend most of our time to build what we think is right and what we think is right doesn't always match what is the need of the market so we have uh we have improved quite a bit on our side and we hope we hope to see the same in the industry in that sense I mean sometimes you have to be a bit bold right and building new features I mean otherwise the market won't move ahead so still uh there's a balance there sometimes but yeah also one thing on cryptocurrency versus security because this is still a big question mark So when it comes to the liquidity being

provided also how do we bring liquidity to tokenize security so you need this Market those Marketplace but after will you as we talk private Market if it's a let's say that pre IO segment maybe it will be less liquid so you will have what we call liquidity events that can be performed so maybe an auction like monthly quarterly yearly depending on the need if it's you to caniz a fund that would be quite relevant but then you want also to mirror the public sector the listed company where you might have continuous trading like you buy a Tesla stock or whatever asset and this is where is becoming interesting because after you need to Market maker but to Market make Securities you might actually require license exactly that's

why we saw so few players entering this because you don't have yet those market makers so for to Market make crypto you can do it tomorrow if I over I oversimplify but for securi is different so that's another also thing to keep in mind absolutely and I mean there will be another panel later to discuss about that but and actually that's why we need banks in the SEC system and that's why we need sdx right you're right uh talk any comments on it well well I mean I I actually agree I think uh uh one thing is about um providing uh infrastructure support for a new assets class which is crypto uh

and another thing is to actually completely change the way Financial Market infrastructure are working so uh that takes time because there are a lot of players involved there is a lot of regul that needs to be adapted um it cannot happen uh within few months or in few few years it it might takes decades decades unfortunately however I think uh you know Switzerland it's uh very Innovative uh we have uh you know excellent player industry players that uh have contributed a lot uh to to you know bring Innovation uh into the

financial the system so I'm very optimistic about that yeah just maybe one quick comment on that we are lucky uh working for blockchain industry because again uh we have different layers of of um assets uh like at the bottom we even have like mcoins right we can test technology using mcoins as Victor said there is no requirements to follow some security regulation if you work with these kind of to tokens and it's a good way to test the technology but on the top of course we have security and uh that's why again we need exchanges um traditional exchanges basically right Banks and everything but again we're lucky because uh we have everything to test the technology

right sometimes from a technology perspective that can be challenging from the traditional Finance participants Legacy systems don't understand let's say cannot interact on let's say even the amount of zeros behind uh the first digit I mean we we see them all right and similar in our industry we're talking about different protocols web socket well maybe the traditional players talking about binary and are collocated and so it's a lot of challenges on that front as well yeah and I think if you're going to see uh disruption as you have seen the last few years you're going to see it on the retail side because the you know on the institutional side there is a level of uh being conservative that is much higher compared to the retail market so we're going to see improvements there

where there are pain points as I said so I think you know not to repeat but like counterparty Risk is is a major pain point and and there is like tremendous pressure from the Institutional Investor side to enter if those issues are addressed so those will see I hope and and and kind of getting signal quick resolution but you know we're not going to see like revolutionary technology on the institutional side in the next you know three to five years we're going to see it on the retail side I mean to to touch base on that I think what is interesting is that we see a lot of development of uh uh

decentralized uh use cases around cryptocurrency and blockchain especially in retail um we see like an explosion of uh decentralized exchange with decent liquidity uh self- custody I mean IIA you you you talked before about integration with the clients uh using uh leder Nano how do you see or do you believe there will be at some point the need from institutional players to have a connectivity to these decentralized uh wordss and how uh you as um infrastructure provider can

support this uh connection maybe I can start so we we have a DA app offering on the platform for institutional um let's say it's not the most you know the highest volumes uh uh you know solution that we have and and there are challenges right like um Victor just mentioned about all the regulatory challenges in Switzerland which is the most Progressive one of the most Progressive regulatory environment right now you have a global market you know each one has his own regulation it's difficult on the institutional side so I I the reason why we decide to look more uh to stepbystep incremental uh improvements to you know managing

collateral and and issues related to trading is exactly for this reason we do not think we're going to see a Quantum jump into the centralized Finance we expect to see Progressive improvements as the Institutional Investor understand the product and understand the benefit of using this product so that's why we started okay part risk is an issue how can we fix it like how can we improve it you never fix it but how can we improve it how we can use programmability and blockchain to to give a better experience and a better and a reduction of risk and then from there move them slowly toward more like a decentralized uh

solution than um I think there is also one important Point uh which is the financial action task force the Fast Travel rule implementation which is a critical piece to actually potentially start to tap into de so you can maybe so what is the travel rule basically implementing a kyc for a specific once you send maybe more than 1,000 Swiss rank we need to have a proper kyc being implemented so before reaching out to Dex you might imagine a future when every metamask user rabby user whatever kind of wallet self non noncustodial wallet will have you will have to actually perform your kyc saying

okay this is Victor B I'm French I live in SW Switzerland and then you have different Frameworks so you have conbase trust you have notab you start to also to have different actors being implemented and then all the institutions getting there and basically being part of those networks so that they can share those information to really enable this opening to the decentralized world but basically the anonymous style or way is not is not possible especially when you talk about Securities yeah I mean goes back to Banks or or regulated institutions can't just do anything in a decentralized fashion right you first need a framework you need the regulation you need the

proper procedures and and risk mitigation actions around it so I think there are still a few steps we have to do before we can go into that world uh maybe Frank from your perspective uh I mean we see good liquidity coming from decentralized exchange uh do you have request from clients to be able to access to this decentralized exchange or at the moment the focus it's very very limited on the institutional side I mean we cater only institutions I mean on the retail side yes a lot and interesting as well maybe for some of the market makers out there as well right because they use let's say decentralized liquidity pools where they

tap in or use that let's say for their offset or let's say their own Market making capabilities but direct demand not so much it's uh very very limited I mean regulation should be key first where they can tap into they want to make sure they don't touch I don't know a Colombian drug cartel liquidity or some sort of sanctioned country which is really hard to identify in most cases yeah maybe one last Point sort of like a wishful thinking like there's also a lot of people lobbying to to try to address this issue with regulation and trying to push for you know simplified and less csome regulation so I wouldn't take out of the table the possibility in the next year or so to

see the you know potentially moving to you know deregulation or improvements in simplification of the regulatory framework I think we're going to see a lot of push as the institutional wants to enter right yeah especially I mean on on the custody side I think you know uh allowing uh individuals to retain custody of their assets but still you know uh uh offering sort of Bridge to the uh uh traditional Finance that's that's very important I think that's what what you mention about your use case of a user who wants it to to be connected uh from from his Ledger device

especially since controlling like every user is almost like you know an exercise of futility so you know there's going to be some rationale hopefully in the next few months perfect so with that I think we are running out of time so uh thanks everyone thank you