Hyperdash Co-Founder: Hyperliquid Is Still Extremely Undervalued (Here's Why)

Transcript

All right, you guys. Welcome back to the tokenization tower. We're here with Hanson Birringer, the chief revenue officer and co-founder of HyperDEX, as well as a core contributor to the Hyper Holdings company and SPV, and a Hyperliquid megabull early ecosystem adopter. Hanson, great to have you in the tower, man. Good to see you here, buddy. And how you doing today, man? How's your How's the How's the month been? >> It's been a great month. We've had a ton of really exciting announcements. You know, me kind of coming out joining HyperDEX full-time officially. Yesterday, we just announced our acquisition of Imperator. So, we're kind of now launching our whole data and node infrastructure validator business. We're really looking forward to the Hyperliquid summit, which we're sponsoring later this week. And just

yeah, really exciting time to be building within the you know, Hyperliquid ecosystem. >> Yeah, man. Most definitely. I would you know, I feel like the the thesis around Hyperliquid has evolved so much over the last couple of years. Just with the evolution of the product as well as the state of tokenization and trading. Maybe just you know, give us what is your kind of current Hyperliquid thesis. When you're going out to raise money for this SPV for the Grayscale ETF, you're speaking to high net worths, institutional allocators. What is the What is the thesis that has really resonated with them and that you've kind of compiled into the state of things as as they are now?

>> Yeah, it's one of my favorite topics. I think we could talk about you know, what why Hyperliquid is important for not just the crypto capital markets, but the larger kind of traditional finance you know, market that's evolving kind of together. But I think at its core, you know, the real reason why investors and you know, researchers, traders, and just kind of market participants get really excited about what Hyperliquid is building and want to be a part of it is a couple core reasons. I think one, you know, it's open source, permissionless, decentralized. It really has the same rules for every participant on the platform. And it also you know, takes that crypto ethos and pairs it with with really high performance, you know, financial systems and applications where you can actually have institutional

capital participating in this, you know, decentralized world which we haven't really seen before. You know, in my 10 years of crypto, it's really been the only thing that's kind of kept those two worlds really growing together instead of separately. >> Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that that convergence is kind of is the core thematic of where we're at in the industry and I think, you know, we we talk about it as perps, tokenizations, stable coins and like these three kind of mega trends. And you know, we we've been talking a lot about how do we best express the bullishness of these trends? Like what is the best way for our community, for us to kind of be able to put our capital on the line and express a bullish view on these three mega trends and we keep coming back here to Hyperliquid.

In the lens of these three, how do you think about Hyperliquid as a way to express express the bullish trend for perps, tokenization and stable coins? How do you kind of think about the combination of these three, you know, decade-long mega trends? You These are all set [clears throat] to grow exponentially. Um is Hyperliquid a good expression for these three? >> I think absolutely. I think it's the purest expression of that. Um you know, with perps, you obviously have the obvious answer. Hypercore is the leading kind of, you know, perp decks. It's rivaling centralized exchange, um you know, from a market share of OI and volume perspective. On a liquidity perspective, it's already, you know, one of the top if not second best or third best markets for some of these pairs.

And you know, a category leader in listing new types of assets, right? We saw the introduction of Hip 3 uh introduce, you know, um RWA perps, right? So you're kind of combining two of these, you know, larger trends into one really great product. And Hyperliquid today, you know, is a de facto category leader as far as crypto exchanges go for trading those sort of, you know, commodities and and equity perps. Um and what they did is really, you know, not outsource, but kind of open-source that uh builder aspect, right? Which is a core to the Hyperliquid ethos is let other high you know high quality competent builders come in and and start adding to this value add of the ecosystem. Uh you know, TradeXOZ has done a fantastic job of you know deploying these perps and continuing to

list new assets that traders want to trade around the world. As far as stablecoins go, um you know, we obviously saw the the latest news with the USDC now becoming a kind of aligned quote asset V2, kind of mouthful, but uh you know, with that I don't think the market really appreciates how big of a move that was for you know, since its inception uh these stablecoins have never done a deal like this. They voluntarily are giving up 90% of their revenue just to be a part of the Hyperliquid story, and I think that's really important for people to really digest and understand not just from a narrative perspective, but also from a revenue perspective. Um you know, there's now almost 10 billion or so, you know, give or give or take a couple billion uh given you know, the the volumes and things that are happening on

the exchange, but there's now about 10 billion or so stablecoin supply on Hyperliquid HyperEVM Hypercore combined, and 90% of that, you know, make call it earning 4% NIM on the back end in their T-bills. 90% of that goes to the assistance fund, which is buying back Hype, you know, programmatically on chain. This is adding hundreds of millions of dollars of buying pressure to the protocol, uh in addition to obviously the trading fees. So, to kind of I guess wrap that all up to your question, right? Hype as a token and Hype as an ecosystem is truly the purest form of these three megatrends in crypto, you know, perpetuals are DWAs and stablecoins all expressed and uh you know, have a compounding effect as well over time together.

>> Yeah, and just to kind of like uh uh focusing on one of the points here with with regards to kind of builder codes and and how this kind of distributed nature of using the underpinning liquidity that Hyperliquid has built for you know, tons of different consumer applications Phantom MetaMask Valor Exchange just announced their uh kind of partnership and so Jeff was on their their podcast talking about this was like five days ago talking about how he thinks about Hyperliquid now more as analogous to the AWS in the sense that they power GPUs, you know, the cloud and all this in in kind of this underpinning of these all these servers that they run. Hyperliquid is essentially that for RWAs, for perps, and just for like

trading as a whole. And you know, the one difference that he made clear was that liquidity begets liquidity and so as this kind of keeps growing, you get a better scenario for all the users, right? As more and more of these venues start to launch builder codes, start to open up their front end for trading, more market makers come in, more OI builds, you get a better tighter spreads for all the traders and users. And what we've seen is that this is going to continue to grow through more and more of of these front ends. But what we're not yet seeing and what we're not able to see and for example Kalshi launched their own perp offering. What would have been fantastic is if Kalshi was just able to plug into builder codes directly instead of having to, you know,

cuz I mean, their OI right now is very low across all their pairs. It's it's it's not really comparable, but they need to do everything KYC'd. They need to do everything by by the CFTC rule book. And so Hyperliquid's kind of facing a bit of a headwind here when it when it comes to these more regulated consumer front ends, Revolut, Robinhood, eToro, Kalshi, Polymarket, etc. who are kind of operating in a more regulated format. And so what we saw Light do with Robinhood was actually launch a completely different instance of of their platform on Robinhood chain. It's obviously very low in liquidity as well now.

It's quite new. But when it comes to this kind of regulatory headwind for builder codes, for HIP-3 to to really get out there and be able to be traded with all these consumer front ends in the US, how do you think about what that path might be? Is it just let's get this single instance of Hyperliquid through the rule book, through the CFTC? I think they the the group down in DC just made a big push. How do you think about this evolving as a regulatory headwind? >> Yeah, so that's a good question. >> is it was mouthful. I just wanted to say that.

>> think it's a topic on a lot of people's minds, a lot of investors' minds, a lot of traders' minds, too. You know, I think the the easiest way that I think about it is one, the world's very big, right? There are a lot of different regulators and a lot of different countries with their own rules, and how do you approach financial markets within within their jurisdiction? You know, Hyperliquid as a you know, L1 protocol is an open-source permissionless system for anyone to participate in. And so, I think they're you know, I obviously can't speak on behalf of their team, but I think they're approaching this in a as good manner as they can given what type of you know, software they're they're operating. And you know, I think you yeah, you mentioned, right? The Hyperliquid Policy Center, and I believe Phantom, you know, code code sponsored a

comment recently to the CFTC kind of trying to push for decentralized venues to also qualify for this kind of new regulatory clarity here in the US. You know, obviously if that happens, it would be a massive tailwind for Hyperliquid to now be an option for a regulated broker front end to execute their orders through the Hyperliquid you know, back end. And which is really ties into thesis that Jeff and the team have set out from the beginning of being this liquidity layer in this AWS layer. And as you mentioned, right? That every time someone new plugs in, whether it's MetaMask Phantom HyperDEX Valor 10 other people, you know, everyone else in the world, every other user benefits from that added liquidity and added you know, kind of taker

or maker you know, volume being driven through the through the platform. And so, I guess the way that I see the specific maybe headwinds that are facing Hyperliquid right now is like any other DeFi protocol, Uh there there's going to be hard to uh have the kind of legacy incumbents just accept you as is, but what we're really seeing is Hyperliquid making a uh proactive effort, right? Not reactive, which I think is very important of helping drive policy here in the US. The US is a very large market as far as capital capital goes. And you know, with the Hyperliquid Policy Center, I think Jeff a couple, you know, months ago was in DC speaking to these regulators. Uh I see it as only positive steps uh in the right direction, and hopefully that you know, the US uh groups can, you know,

have the right conversations where they need to with the right people and really steer this um you know, policy in the right way right way. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that's what we can ask for. And I think I mean, clearly we've seen the incumbents starting to fight back. I think the CFTC or the the CME went to sue the CFTC over some of these rulings. So, clearly there's, you know, there's um >> There's a lot There's a lot of money at stake, right? There's a trading globally is a hundreds of billions of revenue a year for the taking um you know, annually, right? There's So, it's a lot of market share, wallet share up for grabs. A lot of these companies have been building for decades in the space.

They're going to want to protect their, you know, their piece of that pie. And we saw a lot of um innovation and disruption happening in the traditional brokerage space in the last couple decades. Most notably with Robinhood, right? Zero commission. That kind of disrupted a whole lot of other companies uh entire business models. Um you can look back, you know, uh I believe it was uh uh E*TRADE and a couple other ones had to basically announce that same day that they were now also offering commissions and their stock dropped 20% the next day cuz it hit them, you know, hundreds of millions of revenue each quarter that they no longer could get. Um so, we're kind of seeing a very similar, I would say, shift happen in in financial markets globally with Hyperliquid now offering really cheap, competitive, but also really great liquidity uh for some

of these brokers just to plug into versus maybe going the more traditional route that they, you know, had to before. >> Yeah, most definitely. Most definitely. I mean, I mean, I think that's one way to look at at the kind of big like the bigger picture, but I think the the the kind of battle right now is still against Binance, OKX, Bybit, and really just like capturing that crypto market share. And what's kind of funny is that a lot of these centralized exchanges have actually been late to the party of listing like RWAs and gold and stocks and things, and they've just started really to list these things in the in the previous months. As of late, I think yesterday it was at 80% total OI for HLP 3 markets hit about 3.6 billion, new all-time high. Also,

there's a a significant share of the revenue that's coming from these markets. We're obviously in a crypto bear market. Just kind of getting into kind of the revenue story here. When you think about the the priority fees that have just recently launched, as well as the Coinbase and USDC and Circle revenue hitting, I think it's August 26th is when it starts or or late August. And I think it's going to be paid >> or something. >> Paid out October 3rd. >> Right before the Hyper Liquid event in token and so forth. >> exactly. And then and then every month it'll be paid out basically. And so you've got this kind of additional revenue hitting in addition to a somewhat depressed crypto revenue year, but an elevated stock and RWA revenue

year. I think if you follow the four-year cycle, you attribute that we're probably in kind of the lowest of the lows here, maybe one more downfall for crypto, but we're you know, kind of getting to the end here. The like the question is just kind of understanding what the forward-looking revenue story here is for Hyper Liquid. A, from where where it comes from and how you anticipate the percentages of these revenue sources to to kind of come together and and just be what that growth story may look like in the next year, two years. Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean, I think the obvious the most obvious forward-looking, you know, projection of revenues for me is going to be vastly dwarfed by HLP 3 RWA perps. I think that market is just it's just enormous. I I don't think that people in crypto can

truly grasp. If you haven't worked in that uh that field I worked I worked in TradFi before I came into crypto. Uh if you haven't actually experienced like just that world, you you don't really know what you don't know. And that's not like a a dig on anyone. It's just like it it is such a big market. It's our brains can't even comprehend it. Um to give it to perspective, you know, some of the you know, options notional volume right is in the quadrillions. Uh it's just it's an enormous number. Um some of these, you know, ETFs trade trillions a day notional. Obviously, there's a lot of leverage involved in options, but there is also a lot of leverage involved in perps. And so, if you start to think about capturing just a tiny fraction of global trading volume uh expressed via perps, which are

an amazing financial instrument and Hyperliquid is, you know, I think an amazing uh representation of a venue to trade those. Um you know, this revenue should 100x over the next, you know, decade. And when you start to then factor in uh if the liquidity is 100x-ing in volume and uh trading volume or trading OIs 100x-ing, that also probably means that collateral and margin on the exchange is 100x-ing or more. Uh and then, you know, now we have this, you know, AQRV2 with USCC. And so, if I think right now, you know, 5 to 10 billion of of margin right now, imagine if that went to 50 billion or 100 billion. And that's now billions a year of added buying pressure to the protocol in addition to all the trading fees. And so, I think when you start to really zoom out a bit, but then looking forward, uh

the numbers get quite large of what the market that Hyperliquid is going after. And that's also a lot of the reason why, you know, our company chooses to build on top of Hyperliquid. We've been one of the first builders since the 2024 uh using builder codes and powering our users to get access to this great liquidity, uh giving them additional tools, advanced algos, private TWAPs, things like that, uh which are not available on the front end. Yep. And then pairing that with more like data to help uh improve their trading and just like give them more content to do research and make better decisions. And so, we're all in on Hyperliquid uh for a lot of reasons, but most importantly, uh we're very much, you know, kind of starting to really think or think deeper about what are we actually,

you know, kind of building towards as a participant in the ecosystem, but also as someone who's just plugging into the technology to then go build a lot a much larger company kind of, you know, accessing the global world of finance, not just crypto. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, let's talk about that then. So, let's start with the uh Hyper Holdings uh contributions to the Grayscale ETF launch. This was also a big kind of kicker in in the last 3 months. We had the Circle announcement followed by the ETF launches. >> Right. >> Um and so, Hyper Holdings maybe just tell us the story. Like, how did this happen? What happened? So, you guys you launched an SPV to help fund the Grayscale ETF to get it off the ground.

>> Correct. >> HYPG how like just give us a story here. What what happened behind the scenes? How did that how does this work? >> Yeah. >> And then yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, so uh yeah, Hyper Holdings Global uh we're like it's a special purpose kind of fund created to, you know, for one purpose and this is all kind of in the SEC filing. So, uh it's all public out there and um we basically, you know, uh contributed uh in kind to the Grayscale ETF. Um which today is, you know, the lowest kind of fee staking product for Hyperliquid. >> Yeah. >> Uh that kind of came about for a couple of reasons. I think, you know, we saw the the massive uh uh impact that the Bitcoin ETFs had, you know, 2 years ago when they launched.

And just this real kind of need for investor education is particularly on the institutional world of why Hyperliquid is so important kind of going back to what we were talking about earlier today. And um you know, my kind of personal relationship with Grayscale is kind of what led me to um you know, structuring that deal with them. You know, there's a lot of reasons we we chose to work with them, right? There's a couple different issuers out there, but at bottom line, you you the largest crypto asset manager in the world. Uh they're also one of the oldest. You know, they have close to 20 billion of AUM across the different products. They are actively working with the the regulators here in the US, the Hyperliquid Policy Center as well, to push forward the the proper adoption and rules that are going to benefit Hyperliquid long-term. That was a really

big part uh for me and kind of the investors in the group of why we wanted to work with them, as well as um just their track record of really pushing forward uh crypto adoption in the institutional world. Uh you know, they they kind of won the battle with the SEC to get, you know, crypto ETPs approved a couple years ago, and they they've just been a pioneer in the asset management space. And I think the to give a little bit more context of why, you know, these seed creations are so important for these asset managers is uh when you have, let's say an institutional investor wants to go buy hype, right? They don't have a Coinbase account. They can't access Hyperliquid in the US. You know, maybe they're onboarded to an OTC firm like Flowdesk, where I used to work, but there is a lot

of friction of getting that approved through your all the different risk controls and things. But now, if they already have a brokerage account, they can just one-click right trade the ETF and go buy it. Uh but so that's step one. Step two is the consideration of liquidity. You know, how how maybe they want to enter into a $10 million position, but the product only has 2 million of AUM, right? They can't they can't be that much exposure of the total vehicle for just liquidity and concentration risk. And so, these ETFs, it's really important for them to have diversified holder base uh from a AUM percentage perspective so that net new investor can feel comfortable getting into the size that they need uh and being able to trade in and out of that position over time. And so, that was kind of how, you know, that's I guess

story came about to be. Um and then our kind of investor group, which is a combination of some of the largest hedge funds and VCs in crypto, as well as some of the largest, you know, on-chain holders of Hyperliquid around the world, uh we're going to be working with Grayscale as they're kind of going out to educate this traditional, you know, allocator base that they are connected to uh both in the US and and globally of why they should uh you know, own Hyperliquid and why they should, you know, express that view through the Grayscale, you know, Hyperliquid Staking ETF. >> Yeah, and I think it actually comes back to to what I was saying at at at the top, which is that three megatrends. And I was talking to Zach Pandl about it, you know, head of research over there, and he's just like, "Look, man, like I

know that you you know, it seems like hype at 60, you know, you all you guys are up a ton, you know, you're all in is like the best thing ever, but guys, these investors are thinking about this as a 5-to-10-year long tokenization, perps, stablecoins. I got to have exposure to this. I can't look back at my LPs and be like, somehow we missed the, you know, three biggest exports of the digital assets industry." >> Right. >> So, they don't even really I mean, they are price sensitive, but all but in in a certain way they're almost insensitive because it's like, "Look, we're early.

It's cheap." >> Right. >> And so, you know, thinking about that, there is that ETF exposure vehicle. Obviously, there's Hyperliquid Strategies and uh Hyperion, the two uh Dats. Hype Strategies had that crazy run as of late. Now it's down under MNAV. Pe- People are a bit angry about that. Uh but I think, you know, that'll probably work itself out. And so, now it's pretty clear that there are institutional access vehicles for Hyperliquid. What's next? Is it an education thing? Is it an Is it an awareness thing? Is it a marketing thing? Is it Jeff coming on more podcasts? Like, what's What is that? In a similar way that Ethereum is has now broken out into like there's like Ethereum Lives and this Institutional Ethereum These Labs.

There's almost like like these like subsidiary nonprofit groups. What's next for Hyperliquid in the institutional adoption? I think it's pretty clear that's what's going to take this thing to 100, 200, etc. What's that process look like? How How are you getting involved in that? >> Yeah, I think it looks a little bit different for Hyperliquid, right? Uh kind of by design from the from the core team, right? Th- They they want to focus on what they're extremely good at, which is bu- building this, right? liquidity layer infrastructure for anyone to build into. You know, you kind of mentioned Jeff in the Valor podcast. He He kind of went into into a little bit more detail on this, and I would recommend everyone to go listen to it. It's It's really great content, but you know, that we kind of all all serve, right, as a

hyperliquid marketing team. It was kind of like a meme going on in the community a couple you know, last year, but it is true. You know, there's obviously you and I are talking here today. We're kind of acting as a you know, educational guide for you know, the listeners who maybe don't know so much about hyperliquid or they're kind of finding something else something else new that they didn't learn before. And then that was also, you know, kind of the second reason for the Hyper Holdings Global is to serve as a trusted, you know, kind of person to talk to about, you know, what is going on this ecosystem, why is it so important, and really like why is it so important in not just crypto lands, but the broader financial services capital markets lands.

Um you know, hyperliquid is one of the fastest growing companies in the world right now with 10 employees, 11 employees, and you know, not many people know about it. Obviously in crypto everyone does, but crypto's a very small kind of part of the global economy, and so that's the most exciting part, which probably Zach was, you know, referring to, right? We are still very early. There's a lot of education needed. A lot of these asset managers and institutional vehicles are purely focused on that, producing great content, great research, and then really going out and educating financial advisors of hey, you should be aware of what's going on here in case any of your clients have questions, we're here to help. And we also are here to serve as a way to access this, you know, investment idea you want to express in a regulated,

compliant, very easy to access way. >> Yeah. And I mean, Zach said that basically he finds it much easier to pitch hyperliquid than other ETFs that they have because of the revenue story and the buyback story. And so I would imagine when it comes to the work that you're doing, that's also kind of like the primary lens. Like, hey, this business is doing, you know, billion dollars a year in in free cash flow. It's nine you know, 99% goes to the token. The token is the equity. There's no kind of split structures here. It's very you know These are the three mega trends. Here's the business.

>> Right. >> You can value this thing based on how you would value a stock. Um you know, versus when it comes to different L1s and even Ethereum is just kind of like you know, how do you value this thing? >> vibes based >> Right. Right. But then once you get out of Bitcoin and Ethereum the vibes based calculations, they start to kind of break down because it's like >> Yeah. >> you lose the store of value or the credible neutral the credible neutrality story. >> Yeah. >> Um you know, when you get to other L1s, etc. But so there's kind of like this gap in between the like what I call it like the big two and then Hyperliquid and like these revenue generating businesses, which I think is broadly a trend that it's really catching on with with digital asset investors now is like

I want to own something that treats me as a first class citizen, has >> Right. >> cash flows gives those to the holders. And so there's kind of a standard that's that's been set here. >> No, Hyperliquid kind of broke the the traditional model in crypto. Uh I for I think for for better. Um you know, there was this kind of what if premium that a lot of these tokens had been ascribed value to in the past cycles of in 2017, 2021, 2024 you know, what if we built XYZ but on the blockchain? And then this thing was making, you know, $500 of revenue a month but being valued at $2 billion. Like that's just that's not right. Um and there's a lot of, you know, obviously intricacies with supply and demand and FDV and you know, all these different types of games that are

being played in crypto. Uh but Hyperliquid really came in as the purest expression of a growing company. It's capturing all these mega trends. And it actually provides, you know, value to you know, token holders in the form of the buybacks and just also you know, you can stake the hype on the on the network and you know, earn staking rewards as well as um you know, get discounted trading fees if you're a trader. There's a lot of different ways to utilize your hype as a productive asset while also benefiting from you know, the value accrual of the the network expanding via the the token buybacks. >> Yeah. Now on the Hyper Dash side, you guys have processed over 35 billion dollars of volume.

Um so, tons of trading activity. You know, I see the uh UI on the production computer here every day from the top. He's always looking at the UI, trading on it. Um and so, when it comes to thinking about like what the value prop of HyperDash is for for the traders and investors in the community, you guys just acquired uh Imperator, which is a institutional grade kind of data firm as well as uh from what I understand, kind of like validator and staking platform. >> Exactly. >> So, maybe just walk us through the HyperDash business. Um where are you guys making your revenue from? Obviously, trading fees.

Why acquire Imperator? What is the value prop of actually using the platform? Kind of give us the high level here. >> Yeah, so you know, at a high level, HyperDash we're a global brokerage and trading, you know, data analytics platform. Uh what that means kind of, you know, very simply, is you can trade through our, you know, kind of terminal. We have advanced tools and execution uh that other platforms don't offer. And then we kind of pair that with this like really data-rich experience to help improve your trading decisions. Um that can look like discovering top traders to help maybe formulate your own strategy or or discovering really bad traders to to to know what to avoid. Uh we also have, you know, the ability to really like track and customize what data you want surfaced because there is so much

going on in the HyperLiquid, you know, platform. And the benefit is, right, it's open source. You can you can access every trade that's happening in real time on HyperLiquid, but it's very difficult to get that data in a clean, you know, nicely formatted way, and that's kind of what we make, you know, very easy for our for our users. Um as far as the Imperator acquisition, this was kind of a natural next step for us. Uh with this data, right, or with this acquisition, we are now a top validator node. So, we are in the active set, actively processing data faster than anyone else. And now we're able to service this data and clean it up and enrich our users' experience even faster and better than before. Uh in addition, we're now able to offer, you know, kind of uh more enterprise grade data

packages to certain clients who maybe really want to uh better understand Hyperliquid, but um they're not ready to trade yet. And so, you know, there's a lot of conversations we're happening we're having now on that side of the business to really complement the trading, you know, terminal. >> Mhm. >> Um for a user who or maybe a TradFi asset manager, "Hey, I really want to understand and kind of help underwrite my investment thesis to Hyperliquid, uh what's going on? I don't really know how to do this." Our team will help them and kind of understand and really build a custom data package to help suit their needs. Uh and then, you know, hopefully if they do want to trade, right, we then have that as well for them, too. Uh but we're just really able to access just a larger market with the two combined

offerings. And we see that as a just kind of next step, you know, uh building on our larger plan uh that we have to really uh grow Hyperliquid's accessibility and uh inner inner usability or interoperability uh globally. >> Yeah. Amazing. And what's your what's your uh what are your bull and bear cases for Hyperliquid here? What are your not necessarily prices, but what needs to go right for Hyper Dash, Hyper Holdings, Hyperliquid ecosystem to be, you know, uh the most bullish outcome into the next 18 months, and then what is kind of the, you know, moderate to bear case from from your perspective as as we kind of come to a close here?

>> Yeah, I mean, I think from a bull case, it's really easy to get bullish. All the things we talked about, right? All these different kind of, you know, mega secular trends coinciding at once and and not just coinciding, but accelerating, you know, in the world of, you know, AI and also like just the modern world, uh a lot more people uh on the planet are becoming uh connected through the internet. That a lot more people are uh starting to use capital markets and getting access to financial markets. And, you know, with now stable coins, it's much more accessible than ever has been in the past. A lot of the world has, you know, always been gated from US capital markets because their local regional broker doesn't support it.

We're now seeing um you know, through the use local like a local FX on-ramp, you get USDC, you can now access hyperliquid and basically get access to the global financial markets in a couple clicks, you know, on your phone or something. That's never happened before uh in humanity's history, and so that that's really bullish uh for onboarding the next couple billion users to to accessing hyperliquid's liquidity. And that's you know, something we're devoutly focused on doing and building with across our different product set uh not only on the desktop, but mobile and just other formats for um you know, this next wave of traders to access global market liquidity.

As far as the bear case, I would say it's kind of hard to find one because I I feel so strong on these secular trends accelerating. I would say if I if I my thesis would start to be invalidated if I started to see those trends stopping and not just stopping, but like kind of reversing. But, at the moment I don't, so that's kind of keeping, you know, us, you know, grinding every day, 7 days a week, 24/7, you know, we're a global business, our clients are global. Um you know, we're we're all really excited about what we're building, and it doesn't feel like work, honestly, which is which is also great. Uh and that's also what made me to make the official switch, you know, from my kind of career on the institutional uh side from coming from Flowdesk recently, and so um yes, it's hard to it's hard to find a

reason to be bearish, but I think the uh >> Guy's all in. >> The reason the reasons to uh to be bullish are are quite compelling. >> Yeah, I would imagine your portfolio is uh very heavy in hype these days. >> [laughter] >> Henson, uh it's been a pleasure, man. Thanks for joining us in in the tower. Hope the summit goes great. Uh I hope the rest of your week in the city is great, and great to have you, man. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for being here. >> here.