How zkSync and Argent 10x Ethereum’s UX

Transcript

all right everyone welcome back to another episode of zero X research we are recording this on March 6th and have a great episode coming for you talking account abstraction with matter labs and Argent before we get into the interview today we are joined by Westie and Wren who have just returned from East Denver uh so you know looking but look at looking at the market this week we see eth and Bitcoin have pulled back about five or so percent but we have this great excuse to blame it on a major crypto conference uh so Westie and Wren I know you guys are out there repping the blockworks research team and I'd love to get a little maybe a brief overview just like what were the Vibes like at this conference how are people uh you know how are they acting was it maybe different than we've seen over the

past six to 12 months uh how is the overall feeling there maybe I'll toss it to you first run yeah definitely so Wesley and I were there for the main conference as far as a conference and fives go pretty Immaculate to be honest energy was high every side event that you went to was 10x over subscribed the main conference was packed full of people and when I say packed I mean like probably 5 000 people stuffed into that warehouse to the point where you basically had zero cell service uh just because there are so many people there and I think it was very sort of inspiring seeing that even the deaths of a bear rocket there were so many Builders VCS protocols Founders everyone congregating

on a single location right and I think if Denver is one of the better events out there because it's very Dev and Technical heavy and so you really see the amount of work being done behind the scenes at a conference like this where everybody comes off the shelves and talks about the progress they've made and that you know you have to say the industry's subscribing people are saying no one's thieving and it paints quite a good picture for the days ahead yeah I can definitely agree with that like as soon as you stepped into the building you could just feel the energy like as Ren said there was like 5 000 people at once in this place all walking around and and it didn't feel like a bear Market type of conference in that way but at

the same time it did in terms of the conversations you had where a lot of them were focused more on like the fundamentals of things uh like where we're going as a space as opposed to a lot of like the pumpumentals like yeah a lot of these projects did try and attach like CK which is the newest narrative but at the same time it didn't feel like that like euphoria that you would normally get at the top of the cycle um but at the same time there's yeah a lot of energy a lot of passion for the industry and I know I can say I had a lot of fantastic conversations with a lot of these Builders uh over the past few days yeah nothing nothing will make you refocus on fundamentals like negative price action we know that's a great

quote from Xerox pipples himself but uh any any particular speakers that you saw that you were like wow that's a huge huge thing I can take away from this conference like you know so and so did such a good job breaking down maybe this complex topic or a new innovation that is coming to the space yeah definitely one that stands apart from the rest I mean he's been talking a time for the past few months has been true I'm from eichen there he was probably one of the most popular uh guys throughout the whole of Eve Denver and most of these speakers show up at like five different talks every single day I'm not even sure how they appears so many faces simultaneously but Shiva manages to do it um if you talk to him in real life the guy is super nice and

that's a very clear vision for what he wants eigen there to do right increasing the vector for permissionless Innovation and you do that by leveraging the security of Eve and of course he gave that digital talk there are some points that sort of as you walked around the room people whether that's investors or VZ still had questions on whether that's about for example how the selection Works how would it be distributed will institutions really want to set the withdrawal credentials to eigen layers of our contract which I think are all valid questions and there are some good conversations around that yeah we had we had sriram on the Pod let's see he was one of our first guests maybe in the first 10 episodes so that

was that's a great episode we'll throw that in the show notes just to get you caught up on all things that eigenlayer but it's great to hear that you know when we spoke to him he was such a like a great big personality and it's cool to see that that was the case in real life as well and speaking of in real life I hear he's a little taller than expected is this true red can you confirm he is pretty tall but also I'm not that tall so most people and if then we were taller than me but yeah he's using guitar I love to hear it love to hear yeah no I I think one of the the more interesting points with with eigenlayer is really how they're going to deal with uh the slashing mechanism as you say I know on our podcast he mentioned this insurance

bond mechanism which really haven't seen too much Clarity come out around it did that get brought up at all or is that still an idea that you know if they're pursuing that so we did specifically ask him that question and he also said that zero X research is probably one of the only times that he's brought that mechanism up we pushed a little he didn't want to give that much information because I think he didn't want people to speculate on it he really wanted the narrative to be focused on eigen there as sort of like a generic use case for what is like protocols to spin up their security and so yeah he did sort of like flush us aside very casually when you pushed him on that insurance bond mechanism I know he talked a lot on our episode

about permissionless Innovation and ren you mentioned that he said that a bunch at the actual conference but did he also talk about uh in more depth I guess uh the concept of a a market price for a decentralized validator set because that was like one of the more interesting pieces that I took away from our conversation I don't think I mentioned I don't think I heard him mentioned anything specifically about that a lot of so the main events that xiam was at was an event class shared security Summit it was sort of like a yoga brain day with a lot of big brain researchers from like I can layer of Avalon all of like the eve info people like John Charbonneau was there and I don't think um there was a

lot of conversation about like the pricing of decentralization it was sort of how do we get these protocols security to sort of interact with each other and how do we leverage that to sort of build blockchain right it was more of a Grand Vision um event rather than getting to the nitty-gritty what's your take on that Sam though do you think there will be a time where solo staked validators will kind of sell at a premium to something like a staking derivative if you were going to use eigenlayer for um like building out an application yeah I think it makes a lot of sense for something like uh that really needs to be truly decentralized so like a a Thor chain or a tornado cache or something

along those lines that you know decentralization is priority number one so I could see that becoming uh a big thing with eigenlayer of people being like hey no staking derivatives no staking consortiums or what what have you just like we want at-home validators to to secure our chain for Max decentralization purposes I got a dumb question on this too and Wesley you can probably correct me pretty pretty much immediately here but like so when you think about something like aging later they're using like this most commonly probably will be these liquids taking derivative tokens like could they theoretically use like usdc or some stablecoin for the same exact purpose or is there something inherently

tied to the fact that it is a ethereum staking derivative which is securing the ethereum network like well if you're because essentially what you're doing is putting value at stake to be slashed to make commitments a thing very similar to a proof of stake Network right so why does eigenlayer need to be built around staked eth as opposed to another asset that holds value foreign yeah I actually don't know the answer to that question I believe it has something to do with that you already have something up for steak and you're like putting up for additional slashing risk um I'm sure something could come along where you you leverage usdc but at the same time like that's managed by a

centralized entity you could like easily manipulate things in the back end um and so to have like a sort of completely decentralized trust layer that you're utilizing I'm sure it goes a long way in terms of the security but as far as far as the specifics are concerned yeah I'm not sure why you'd necessarily need to use eth over something else that has a large market cap I feel like to to piggyback off what you said Westie just no one would want to run a decentralized chain you know with the staking asset being usdc or tether given the the regulatory risk the custody risk Etc associated with those two assets so I feel like eat is really

the only logical choice because it's only a decentralized asset with the largest market cap and then there's also probably a lot of you know developers speak that we don't understand that uh it plays a pretty key role in terms of like ease of deploying contracts developer tooling Etc foreign yeah no that actually makes a ton of sense and I guess if you like think about what is the the most natural uh crypto asset it would be something like a base layer asset like ethereum or Avalanche Etc um so that yeah I think that's actually exactly the reason it is really centered around decentralization and giving the ability to build on top of that decentralization I feel like we also saw a lot over the

weekend about uh was it called roll kit I'm still catching up from the weekend given it's a Monday but you know different stuff with uh Sovereign Roll-Ups on bitcoin and using Bitcoin as their da layer um did you guys hear anything about that at youth Denver is that just something that's floating around Twitter over the weekend yeah no I it's not something I heard at East Denver um who was also at the Shared security Summit was Babylon which is like within Cosmos using Bitcoin as a checkpoint for additional security um which I think is in sort of the same realm as like utilizing Bitcoin in some way shape or form um and so I think that's like an

increasing narrative is how do we actually utilize Bitcoin Security in other ways Beyond just like you using the Bitcoin blockchain I think ordinals are really sort of like spun that up in people to realize okay we can do a lot more with Bitcoin than just send Bitcoin from one address to another yeah the those solvent Roll-Ups are fairly interesting right because you know they kind of got a little bit advertised as like a true L2 built on top of ethereum but in my understanding is it's not like technically an L2 again because it's using that like checkpointing technology as a as opposed to fully inheriting the security of the L1 that it's settling to uh but there was actually a GP from high framework uh

actually had a great take on this it was like basically just saying you know let's not like battle whether or not that this is like a true L2 or whatnot let's just like you know embrace the fact that we're like pushing into something we haven't pushed into before and kind of expanding the bounds of experimentation which is really something I always like to see happening in the space especially given its its Tendencies to you know kind of want to have that forking mentality and just you know recycling the same projects that have existed before so personally I'm excited for this yeah Westie actually I think there's a lot of people who don't know what Sovereign Roll-Ups are are you able to give us a little Eli five on what they are and and whether or not you're bullish on them yeah I can give a little quick

explanation so as you know with like modular blockchains that splits up uh execution settlement consensus and data availability and for something like a normal roll-up you basically have just execution on the roll-up and the other functions are sort of given to another uh entity but in the case of solvent Roll-Ups uh the only thing you're essentially offloading is data availability and so on your layer you still have the ability to settle and like some people don't really think it's like a layer two because you don't have a trust minimized bridge going from uh the roll up to the L1 but at the same time you're using the The Da guarantees

of that Network and I know Celestia is building with Sovereign Roll-Ups in mind because they're like a hyper scale d a layer and so they're focusing just on that and allowing these solvent Roll-Ups to almost act like l1s built on Celestia and so I think it's going to be one of the like bigger areas for Innovation especially as Celestia comes out later this year unless he will keep you on the uh on the on the hot seat here and uh you know Ren's major takeaway was the eigenlayer uh you know founder himself sriram and in all these innovations that are coming along with that which you know really isn't too surprising given how hot that's been on on CT over the last

couple months honestly uh so not even just weeks but uh what's your major takeaway well it's something that you kind of walked away with thinking about differently or really excited about yeah so a lot of my conversations which I didn't think this is going to be the case going into it but a lot of what I talked about was Mev specifically um so I think one sort of area in which Mev is evolving is in the case of private order flow which I've talked about in a recent Xerox research podcast um if done incorrectly it could be a pretty centralizing Force to the network but there's a lot of uh these protocols such as flashbots with their new Mev

share as well as Rook which have like more decentralized versions of private order flow or you still have an auction system for Searchers and block Builders except the Mev rather than going to the validators goes back to either the user or the wallet um whatever sends that that RPC to the private RPC node and I think this is going to be a really really big narrative going forward is definitely in a lot of my conversations is how do these entities compete for order flow I think there's going to be a lot of battles over the wallets specifically so something like Rooker flashpots can partner with metamask for

instance they are like the largest source of order flow that goes through the inferior RPC via metamask and so if one of these private order flow protocols can plug into metamask that's going to be a huge Revenue driver and will likely like change the Mev landscape where a lot of Mev will be extracted through these protocols instead of going back to validators and so I think fighting for private order flow is going to be a big narrative in the next year or two I also saw a really good talk from tarun on Cross chain Med and what that actually looks like in practice and it's obviously extremely difficult because you have to worry about the gas fees on

the current chain the gas fees on the chain that you need to to Arbitrage to as well as you could have gas fees on the the chain you're bridging to actually changed with the first transaction you did because you could be trying to Arbitrage the the token uses gas and so yeah as a really good presentation from tarune um the arbitrum Mev situation something I talked about with the aubergine folks for a while and they're thinking through a solution where you have like a delay period um so that like all Searchers have access to the same transactions while also having that auction mechanism which is a lot better than the proof of work

they're going to implement as well as had an interesting conversation with uh Tim from Relic about fraud-proof muv as he called it where essentially you could have really sophisticated Searchers who were able to issue fraud proofs in the exact block that you have some sort of uh like failed transaction on an optimistic grow up and able to like capture some value there so you had a lot of like really big brain interesting conversations around Mev and it's definitely things that I'm going to be thinking about for the next probably a month or two is like how does the nav space evolve because it's really like uh like a really long Rabbit Hole you

could go down all right well you cheated because you just gave me like four but they're all bundled into muv so I'll let it slide but if we go back to the first one uh and private order flow like if I'm a user like how does this how does this affect me do I care that um my like the route my order is taking is slightly different um like does that impact my privacy or am I just overall getting a better transaction so price so maybe I'm just happy about that like how does it look like for the user yeah it's a good question so it's actually much better from the user's perspective you can think of it like Robinhood now that has sort of private order flow to Citadel and that helps them get like no fees on their transaction as well as better pricing

but at the same time Citadel is able to extract value by being able to see your order flow it acts in a similar way where for the user you can think potentially maybe they get rebates based on the amount of MVP that's that was extracted maybe they have felis [Music] um trades so maybe like uniswap partners with rook and they have sort of a private flow type of model and all of a sudden they say hey we actually have zero percent fees or very minimal fees um but really it's because they extract Mev and that private order flow makes its way back to users and so from like a user standpoint you're more likely to go

through some sort of private order flow because you're able to have more value whereas in like another situation the Mev makes its way to validators and so obviously if you're the user you're going to want that value and not not giving it to somebody else so it seems like there's this really interesting Dynamic of like where Mev value will flow to because today it is the validators but tomorrow it sounds like it's going to increasingly become to the protocols and then ultimately back to the users uh which kind of like brings in an interesting point around to eat security right because the Mev does flow to validators that is an incentive to stake e to participate in network security do you think there's a risk to

the end state of ethereum if all of the Mev starts flowing elsewhere and do you think like Mev will like exist on the base layer into perpetuity or eventually just kind of phase out from things like private order flow or maybe transaction activity moving to l2s great questions um first of all no I don't think it's a problem for the security of the network in the same way that a lot of these researchers are trying to push for Med burn which would burn the Mev as opposed to giving it to validators which is sort of giving it to all etholders as opposed to just the validators you can think of it in like a similar way where like they actually want there to be less

incentives at stake because that means less emissions of eth and there's really like a marginal difference like once you get enough validators the next validator isn't really super important for the overall security of the network so I think it'll be fine in terms of security but I think the second question like yeah I agree like Mev I think in terms of staking rewards is going to be a very very small amount of the staking rewards and now on given that one activity is going to be moving to these l2s as opposed to the base layer as well as yeah like Mev is going to be extracted through private order flow I think in a large chunk of it as opposed to going actually to validators so over the long

run I don't see Mev as like a large source of income for these stickers yeah that makes sense and the data kind of matches up with what you uh what you just said right I just pulled up our ethereum dashboard uh on Dune and the total eth that has flown to eat stakers in 2023 is around 241 000 eth um and 44 000 of that has been through Mev payments itself so about 12 and a half percent or so so yeah pretty interesting makes a lot of sense there uh Ren were you going to add anything to that no I was just gonna add that if you went to East Denver I think it became pretty clear that most of the smartest guys within the cryptos phase are working on

Mev everyone that's in that space is either super talented super curious or just super smart and it was sort of like a common sentiment that there was still a lot of incentive mechanisms to figure out around Mev right even though like say flashbots has done a lot of work in the past year people still see it as more or less a completely back box right because for example as more blockchain ecosystems come online cost of main Arbitrage has become more prevalent or for example people start doing more statistical Arbitrage type Mev and so there is still a lot of excitement and undiscovered areas in the space and I think a few other interesting things that we sort of heard from a few

searches that we talked to is a the number of Searchers out there is still pretty small or at least smaller than Western I thought um sort of like rough numbers that we had were maybe around 20 to 40. and so it's not as much as one might think right I think the number that was in I had initially was 100 searches or so um that's probably the same situation on the Builder's side and second of all that um there are still sort of like Niche MAV opportunities out there you know of course there's like very common ones such as like back running sandwich attacks like uh decks and like sex uh Arbitrage but there are still very profitable Mev opportunities if you're

really willing to dig into sort of like how the contracts work or sort of look in the white papers and understanding is these granular inefficiencies yes Ren said I think one really cool like aspect of Mev that's going to evolve a statistical Arbitrage or like statistical Mev as they might call it where you have something like say which has batches built into like it it's uh um blockchain essentially for like all of its swaps yeah um really you there is no mov you can really extract in a single block so as a result you're probably going to see a lot more sort of statistical Arbitrage or rather than like having an explicit

um profit and loss in that block you just you base it off of your expected value on the next block and so I think a lot of stuff along those lines is going to result and yeah like I said the mvv is like such a rabbit hole you can go down for real it sounds like it I'm so jealous I wasn't out there Dan you were at least in uh in Brack so you were you're out west and got to enjoyed his lease I was still stuck uh in Ohio but I'm curious what was the sentiment at East Denver uh around zke EVMS because if you go on Twitter you think that's like ethereum being reborn but is it actually all the hype that that we see on Twitter or is it um not quite as much hype as you would have expected foreign

events ZK was definitely Talk of the Town right sure you had like um a lot of attention being painted like Optimus take Roll-Ups because of like coinbase's base and arbitrum but there were so many ZK events and ZK talks that um I couldn't like keep track of them and also a lot of like the VCS the funds the builders like everyone was interested in ZK you know it's sort of like that Meme that if you put ZK in your name your evaluation just goes up by 100 and that kind of felt like still a very um exciting series I think some of the general questions had some of those General conversations

around you've never I had about ZK was that a well like those ecosystems be built out in time before optimistic role of sort of like getting too far of a deed B are people more interested in sort of like ZK as like a infrastructure Tech as in like ZK evm or more so as ZK technology that enables sort of like real world use cases right whether that's like every decentralized Identity or like uh zero knowledge data of some sort and so I think those are the two main points for SDK I think it was funny that polygon like in their Booth they had the first CK evm and like big letters and like the ZK sync Booth wasn't too far away like you

could see it from their table and the scroll one was right around the corner like the fight was going on in real time and yeah that was what was funny to me but yeah Ren nailed it on the head love that was there any protocol that you went in not knowing about that maybe you talked to their team or it was kind of like the Talk of the Town that made you end up you know diving into the docks that you're now like okay this is something that I'm gonna pay attention to over the next six to 12 months I haven't over to the docks yet but there is one protocol that I'm really excited about I'll get some context first so Wesley and I were at a Mev sort of events on Saturday night and we just

showed up at the table we started talking to this guy at first we started talking to him about gas price derivatives right so we started talking about what's a good way to design the mechanism is it a Perpetual future with a funding Vape but then we sort of talked about how the funding rate won't be sensitive enough to gas by changes and then out of nowhere this guy comes along and of course it's none other than Dan Robinson from Paradigm and Western were like okay so we're having a really great conversation about gas price derivative of this and then Robinson suggested for example you could squeeffe which is squared if um a power Perpetual on Eve to Enterprise derivatives okay and then Dan Robinson goes to the guy next to us that

Western has been talking for quite a while and then we realized that he was a paradigm CTF winner for 2022 and for a second there we were like okay where else in the world will you be able to sort of get in the environment I guess where you talk to two gigabits within the space I mean Paradigm CTF winner uh and like Paradigm researcher it's kind of crazy okay but anyway back to dance question the one product I was talking about is the Reddit protocol so essentially they're going to use ZK snarks to give smart contracts access to all of ethereum's historical State and I'm still reading into the docs I may not be doing the perfect explanation here so apologize apologies to Tim Becker first but uh here's a few

practical examples that they said on the website right for example revolutionizing online identity you can securely validate any past activity on the blockchain from account age to contract inter interactions token amounts and more so in the past if someone was doing an airdrop fight it could just be either Someone putting up a spreadsheet and or dropping tokens to wallet addresses or someone just looking at like historical transactions and there's no way to securely validate that and Reddit protocol enables that another example would be historical price articles Reddit protocol allows you to drop external off chain relayers and create trustless fully on chain price oracles for any online data

including Dex prices stock parameters for example gas prices anymore so when I first talked to Tim Beckley athletic protocol I first thought I was like you know why was this needed you can sort of like recreate ethereum state if you want to you just go into the Rock Explorer you pass the transactions then you sort of like backtrack the state but then I realized that there is a fundamental difference between doing that and being able to validate that in a trustless manner and I'm not smart enough to have figured out all of the use cases yet but Tim Becker definitely explains some very exciting use cases at night that's a new one I've never heard of Relic protocol we'll put the uh the link to that website in the description as

well so you guys can check it out with us but that's pretty cool and I love your the contacts you provided around that right like you know you're just having a casual conversation well I guess casual conversation about gas price derivatives probably doesn't exist but uh nonetheless you're just having some nerds nerd conversations and up walks Dan Robinson that's awesome I'm glad you guys had such a such a great time at East Denver and we're able to kind of impart some of that knowledge you picked up on us as well but without further Ado it's probably a good time to hop to our interview with matter labs and Argent covering all things account abstraction I cannot recommend enough for you guys to all check out blockworksresearch.com if you go over to the research Tab and toggle free research you're going to get access to some of the best free reports in the

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we think on the data side of things head over to our Dune public account we have four dashboards live there for free the revolution will not be quarterly reported so definitely check those out and let's kick it over the interview all right we've got a great episode today we've got Alex from matter Labs the team behind ZK sync and uh the ZK evm era uh and then Julian from Argent the company behind one of the most Cutting Edge wallets uh in the entire industry so uh thanks so much for joining guys we're excited to have this conversation around account abstraction kind of a Hot Topic nowadays but first Alex I kind of wanted to kick it over to you to get a um an update on era and where you guys are at in the process of launching sure thank you for having us here it's a

pleasure era is doing really great we we uh recently opened the mainnet to developers to start deploying applications at each Denver we had a chance to open it to the first users the uh if Denver food truck experience was powered by the kissing karat it went smoothly without hey like you know like no uh no um friction uh was really great because of native account obstruction that was implemented in Era from day one uh so user did not have to pay the fees it was completely gasless and very easy to use I'm happy to talk more about this topic yeah and then Julian Yuma and Sharon just uh some things about Argent what

you're working on and maybe how you're uh partnering with era and kind of the synergies there sure uh I mean at origin we've been building small control quality for you know for five years uh starting on on ethereum L1 and then we've been waiting for a couple of years to have a roll up you know a layer two that would scale and at the same time that would make our model native and that's exactly what you know zkc era is providing as well as stack net so we've been really focusing on these two layer tools making sure we can you know build amazing user experience by leveraging account obstruction that's super interesting I noticed that you kind of picked the two ZK EVMS that are on opposite ends of the spectrum

you've got like one that's kind of using a compiler method and taking high level source code and and compiling it into solidity and then you've got starkware which is using uh Cairo a completely different language altogether so is there any reasoning behind uh choosing these two to to partner with in particular outside of the ones that you like hoping to achieve more I guess type 1 or type 2 equivalents in the words of vitalik yeah I mean the the clear differentiator of of both stock net and Z casing era is that they support native account attraction and that for us was really you know super important there's a lot of talk recently around erc4337 which is one way to enable some form of account abstraction at the application Level uh

but that's what we've been doing on Arjun you know for five years so smart contract wallet and ethereum there are from the user's point of views to create equivalent then what four three three seven will get you and I mean that's an amazing achievement but at the same time what we've realized over the years is that the ecosystem is still built around EOS and so if you build like an abstraction at the application layer I mean you can build great products but your products will never be compatible with 100 of the dapps because they've always beat up developers that don't think about smart contract wallet and that kind of a stuck in that era Paradigm while with Z casing and stagnet because they have native account abstraction your model or model is the is the default model in a sense and that guarantees just you know 100

compatibility with the dubs which of course is is essential so there's a lot of DK VMS there's a lot of you know optimistic rollups that are great in terms of scaling uh but it when it comes to being able to make our model native and make sure we can build really the best experience for users you know choosing starknet and Z casing era was a no-brainer do you think you guys could start by maybe going a little bit more high level and explaining exactly what account abstraction is and maybe starting with ethereum as an account based blockchain with EOS and contract accounts sure I mean I'll get be happy to start an analytics feel free to to jump in

um I mean as people know there's two type of accounts on ethereum you have externally owned accounts which can trigger transaction and then you have Smart contract accounts that can contain logic but unfortunately there is no account on ethereum that can both trigger transaction and pay transaction fees and at the same time contain logic and so as a user you're always required to start with the new the object that you have and that you use to to interact with the blockchain is always you know anyway and the problem with EOS is that their account model has been hard coded really in the evm in such a way that the account is completely coupled with a private key that I like to call the signer and that's why when you you

create an account you're forced to backup a seed phrase for example which is a way to say you're writing down that private key on a piece of paper so in ethereum the accounts that users manipulate they are completely coupled to the signer that cryptographic object in such a way that if you lose that that object you basically lose everything and if I have your signer I have your private key I have everything and all that logic is out coded in DVM and that's of course as with bitness you know over the past five or six years this is really hard for for users even as I would say as expert early adopters we do make mistake sometimes we go on the wrong website and you know our C trade is compromised or we just lose on seed phrase we lose our account so this

user experience is of course you know very complicated and we believe that Arjun from a long time that this would never you know scale and reach Mass adoption account abstraction on the other end is the ability to program your account so again taking a step back in account on ethereum it does four things it validates the transaction it executes the transaction it pays a fees to The Miner and it makes sure there's no replay attack you cannot play the same transaction twice so these are really the four functionalities of an account on the evm today everything is hard coded with account abstraction you can really program these four functionalities because your account is a smart contract so you can really start putting Logic on how a transaction is

validated how a transaction will be executed executed executed sorry and how the fee will be paid to The Miner and so in terms of validation that means that you can choose a different elliptic curve you can choose a different signature scheme maybe you want your transaction to be validated by you know two out of three assigners making it a native multisig if you think of the execution if you can program it that means you can start doing stuff like multicools execute doing a sequence of operation in one transaction and if and if it comes to paying the transaction fee if you abstract that then you can start letting someone else paying for your transaction and that's what they must do so really account abstraction for me is really the ability to program

the functionalities of your account and that opens a completely new design space and I I can add to this the uh maybe I I can compare the um eap4337 which is now implemented on on ethereum mainnet versus native account instruction layer twos with EAP for four three three seven we're dealing with basically just the standard the conventional how contracts can be repaying the guest fees to the centralized more or less actors who will be submitted to submitting transactions on the user behalf uh so the the uh there are multiple problems with this approach like first of all it's great that ethereum has taken a step forward to implement it and we have something

now on mainnet that is more or less standardized uh Argent was on the Forefront and they were doing this meta transaction uh for quite a while and now more projects can join and do something on mainnet uh but uh the uh first problem is you introduce trust assumptions you introduced new centralized actors even if if there's going to be some decentralized Marketplace uh then you have to deal with the security property censorship assistant properties of this Marketplace so instead of just having dealing you know with the wallet vendor and the blockchain itself you have to depend on some parties to submit transactions for you and the second problem is that uh as Julian mentioned before the protocols

are not um uh designed for interacting with with these types of accounts and like many things will just break because the transaction origin will deviate from the from the account that is actually initiating the action so like some things will not function properly uh in this Paradigm but there are there are more problems with the protocol uh implementation per se like uh the way uh erc20 is structured and other protocols that we many Protocols are doing is he recover and relying on on certain way like they expect the accounts to be eoa so they expect that the address is actually a cryptographically valid

um reflection of a of a private key on the public key space and uh that you can be you can verify this contract but I would say one really big problem on ethereum with account obstruction implemented in a way uh uh like AP 4337 is the cost it's not just more expensive to transact because it's layer one and we know that layer 1 is expensive and cannot really accommodate the the uh search of users that we expect with uh at all those where the this is a much cheaper account transaction implemented in this way makes the transactions even more

expensive because you have to pass the uh the separate signature so you have to pay for the original transaction for the initiation of the call in addition to that you have to pay for providing all the data and verifying all the data on layer one uh of of this new transaction like maybe an extended signature scheme which is which can be relatively large maybe you want to pass some more data for the transaction you have to pass the the address like all the normal transaction information wrapped in some envelope to be passed to the smart contract on top of that you have to pay for the executions you have to be sending tokens back so all of this increases the transaction cost multiple

times whereas if you look at the native implementation of account obstruction at ZK sync for example uh you will we have uh a really interesting approach to data availability and we are only publishing State divs and not the transaction inputs on a roll update and one of the decisions or one of the factors where we went for this decision was that it makes um abstracted accounts and transactions on abstract accounts much cheaper so essentially the costs of transactions with account abstractions does not deviate from the cost of normal transactions you're eventually only

paying for the actual things that are happening on a blockchain you know you you make a call to Union swap to trade some tokens you will only be paying for trading these tokens not for all this meta information not for all the additional uh checks guards signature verification Etc not on blockchain at least you will be still paying for them in the proof generation but the proof generation is going to be negative visibly cheap it's going to be very very inexpensive the bottleneck of scalability of ldus will will for for observable time Remain the on-chain data costs so it sounds like you know ZK Sync has really taken an

approach that putting account of traction like in directly in the base layer making it native to the protocol whereas ethereum you know didn't do that and much of that is really uh the ecosystem we see today has just kind of been built off in unfinished protocol and so we have these uh shortcomings if you will of you know protocols will likely have to adapt and change to to you know make themselves more relevant in in the new era once this EIP gets introduced but given the fact that it's more expensive to generate these transactions do you think it's practical to have account abstraction uh at the ethereum L1 or is this really just something that's better suited for uh zksync and other l2s to be utilizing I generally think that the uh majority of the users who will be transactional

layer tools uh in the near time and the activity will like almost the interactivity will migrate from layer one to leritus um the cost is one major and huge Factor on scalability and just the sheer number of years and transactions you can process it later too but also the fact that uh l2s have the freedom to innovate whereas ethereum rightly must take much more careful much slower approach that's it's much more important for ethereum to uh to have the where to come up with new ideas bottle test them at the news playground and then only adopt the things that have been uh verified by my real usage

so in in this sense uh ldus can just move faster than the L1 which is normal unexpected yeah I fully agree with that and actually an urgent that's what you know we've been advocating for more than a year is that icon abstraction should you know started in layer twos exactly for the reason that that you know Alex mentioned layer twos they are kind of starting as a blank page and I like the word you use you say ethereum the protocol is unfinished and actually people are getting excited about a kind of abstraction but ethereum was always meant to have a kind of fraction if you look at the road map vitalik started talking about account abstraction in 2015 there's the first VIP like early

2016 I think so that was always part of the roadmap but of course ethereum was such a complex project that you know they needed to start simple in some places but it was always meant to have native account abstraction full Fuller construction like it's implemented on on zika scenario that was always the plan but of course they started simple with DOA and then you start building and then you have you know a lot of Legacy there's a lot a lot at stake I mean there's a lot of fans on ethereum and then making such a fundamental change becomes extremely complex there's always something more important to do before doing that and that's completely normal but then again no we are I mean at a very exciting time where layer twos are picking up I think we have all these

years of learning from the evm and from ethereum and I think we shouldn't shy away of updating the things that you know should be updated and I think what five years ago when we started at Argent people thought we were a bit crazy making smart contract wallet I think not today kind of everybody agrees that this is the solution you know account attraction is not a question of you know if it's a question of of when and I believe clearly the the shortest path to make that happen on the entire theorem ecosystem is to do that on layer twos as Alex mentioned because their tools can innovate they can you know test a good example of that is actually easy casin contributing to erc4337 because the way they implemented account abstraction at

the protocol level was heavily inspired by 4337 and so they realized that they could relax some of the constraints with respect to the validation phase and actually fuel back erc4337 which included them so I do think this is the right way to go we should as an ecosystem push more your tools to really you know be bold and actually go where we know we have to go because now is the right time if layer choose wait two or three years to start thinking about Native Native account abstraction they will be in the position that ethereum is today meaning that they will have a lot of Legacy there will be a lot of stick and it'll become it will become increasingly increasingly more complicated for them to make that transition so I think we have really a window of opportunity to make that

happen some you know some layer twos you know we're brave enough to go down that road which is great but I think molio too should embrace that and then we can make sure to bring all that that expertise and at some point bring it back to the uh to to ethereum but again kind of like Alex I don't even know if bringing that to ethereum is actually needed because I kind of agree that I mean most normal users the next wave of users will be on their twos not only one so in the end if it comes back to ethereum for me is not that important what's important is that it comes back to DVM because there are a lot of layer twos that you know are evm equivalent so it is more important for me to have a kind of abstraction in optimism and so

on that actually on under one yeah yeah stronger agree there we're already kind of seeing the the first real wave of L2 adoption right now with like total transactions between some of the leading Roll-Ups surpassing ethereum which is super super encouraging and exciting to see but something with account abstraction that I haven't been able to figure out is as an L2 you still need to pay your L1 settlement costs in eth so how does it actually look under the hood uh if you know you as a user are paying uh for transaction fees in usdc or some other token how does that uh the the settlement cost actually flow to the base layer for settlement um so that will mean that the validators who have accepted transaction have to

convert the the proceeds into ease somehow so the one simple way to do it is to use uh liquidity inside and L2 and use automated liquidity uh automated market makers to to convert all of this proceeds just in time uh use you always have a slight delay between the accepting of the transaction and the actual payment of the fees see you you can because you need to wait for the block to complete you need to wait for zero knowledge proof to be generated and for transaction to happen in ethereum um and so since you're accepting the some slight risk of fluctuations of the price anyway you can do it at the last step so you

can you can process many transactions and then batch convert them Into The Ether and then pay the fees okay makes sense that's what my intuition was was leading me to now I also hear a lot of things in terms of social recovery like with email addresses or or maybe 2fa gated text messages or something of the sorts but it kind of scares me as a user to think that maybe I'm not in full control of my uh my seed phrase um so is there any security trade-offs with that come with the kind of abstraction that users should be aware of aware of or is that something that you guys have kind of thought about very thoroughly so I think with any technology you need you know you need to think about about

security for sure but what is clear is that for example you take the example of social recovery we've been doing social recovery on Origin since 2018 you know at some point we're securing more than a billion dollars we have users that have 50 plus civilians on our gen that actually lost their phone but with social recovery they were fully in control and they were guaranteed to get to get by access so I do think social recovery with in that respect for me is it's much more secure actually than a seed phrase it's easy to lose the seed phrase while social recovery you are you control you know who will help you for that recovery maybe to to to help you know people understand if your account is a smart contract that means you can start you know to put custom

logic and the idea of social recovery is to say that you have one key that are special right it's the owner key of the account it's the one that can trigger transaction to try you know transfer assets interact with dubs and so on but because you can program the account you can add other keys on that account and these key or other signers and these signers they cannot trigger transaction they cannot transfer token they cannot do anything but they can only help you and they can only do one security action which is the recovery and so the flow is as a user you suddenly look you know lose your primary key what you do is you contact the owners of of this Guardian key and collectively they can give you back access and reprogram the account to

have a new key so it's really like the model that you have today with your bank with your bank if you lose your credit card you actually call your bank and you ask your bank to send you a new one and to reprogram your account such that the new cards control you know can spend the fun on the account social recovery is exactly the same except that you choose who act as your bank so it can be a centralized service that you trust and you will authenticate to that service with an email and a password or with you know a a an SMS for example but it can also be friends that you trust or it can be yourself with the hardware wallet or it can be a combination of all those and they will need to have a majority of these you know of these Guardians

accepting the the recovery so you are 100 in control with recovery that it's it's a no-brainer and I personally believe that it is more I I TR I trust more for example my setup on margin is a centralized service the Urgent service that we provide it's myself with a hardware wallet and then it's a friend was origin as well and when I need to do recovery I just need to contact two of these parties I personally trust that much more than having you know everything written on a piece of paper which of course I won't remember exactly where it is and have a 50 chance you know to a bit lost if I don't put put in a safe so social recovery is 100 percent

secure that's for sure and for me I personally think that it is more secure than a seed phrase I think something that people underestimate is that security is not the the core principle per se it's about the user experience of security so yes a seed phrase it's extremely secure if you can and you are fully in control if you can manage that if you have perfect process and so on but the thing is the majority of people don't and so that makes it less secure well I think social recovery for me is the perfect trade-off between you know convenience and true security it is extremely secure because everything is written at the level of your account it's really unseen in the blockchain all

that logic is programmed you know in your account but at the same time it's very easy to understand because it's the mental model that we are used to with any account that we have online and so I think it's the perfect combination of true security and convenience which in the end make it you know very very safe uh solution of course uh some people will say I'll be smart contracts smart contracts have bugs yes smart contracts have bugs but then again writing good smart contract is a question of process you know when you take a plane you basically put your life at the end of a computer because the plane is being you know piloted by a computer and nobody questions that because we know they had good process in place and actually this

this computer software are extremely secure again so you can write extremely secure smart contract and that comes from having good process having your code transparent so that anybody can inspect you know having audit you know doing I mean all the all the tools that that are available but yes for me it's a it's a no-brainer smart contract wallet and it's just like social recovery it makes actually self-q study much safer for users I feel like I say it all the time on this podcast but I just love the the idea of making crypto easier to access right because today you know it feels sort of easy at times for people like us to spend all day every day in the depths of D5 but the reality is it's not and uh

so I love the idea of social recovery and bringing that to uh to the space um but does the does account abstraction or use like a contract wallet change any privacy assumptions uh we can talk about privacy I just want to add uh one thing about security which I think is extremely important so it is uh um the when when you when you're looking at security like what what problems can be introduced by this new technology you also have to look at the same time What problems will be removed and what's the balance on the uh on on the outcomes you know you can look at the self-driving cars and see some crashes of those cars and be like oh how can I try to how can I trust a self-driving car to drive me

home safely but if you look at the per mile accident rate of the cell driving cars it's a lot less it's like for every accident that happens there hundreds are prevented for uh like that would have otherwise happened by people who are driving the cars uh the situation with the concept section here is uh uh is extremely skewed towards protecting the users like I can't really think of you know like I can't remember in any security incident happening with uh with any of the count abstracted or like any smart contact wallets being that Argent or noises safe or you know like any others that existed but the number of ways in which you can increase

security for the end users is enormous so the it's it's important that not only you are secure like most of the time it's really like you want to give users a sense that they secure all of the time and that they can make mistakes and these mistakes are not going to be deadly for them they should not be afraid to sign a transaction because like they know that this transaction can take all of the money from them so the current obstruction you can Implement guards you can Implement some you know checks in the beginning at the end of transaction that will say like it will only succeed if only this token has been touched and like my final balance for this token is is not more than

you know 100 less than whatever amount you you're trying to spend or like uh authorized for this particular transaction so this is one example with with social recovery it's not only important that you can do social recovery it's important that all the all the Guardians that you appoint all the people who you trust can also do social recovery in a very easy way so they will not lose their accounts which you rely on vitalik recently are all they post about ux and his experiences with social recovery done in a uh in a worse way with secret sharing and it turned out in a case where he needed to recover a wallet all the people or like some of the people were not available because

they lost their seed phrases because it was not convenient so Julian brought up multiple times the the example of pgp versus a signal or pgp is a like massively Superior technology from the point of view of privacy preservation but signal is much more convenient and it also offers you end-to-end encryption and so it took off and pgp did not despite many many more years of advantage so coming back to the question of privacy uh account obstruction will be a necessary part in implementing privacy preserving protocols on ethereum and all the uh ethereum scaling Solutions the reason for this is that for privacy you fundamentally need to change the

Paradigm to change the way you think about the user experience with any privacy presented protocols you need to separate the keys to to like authorize changes of your account from a secret and commitment to the secret which you hold on chain so you you have to keep some secret to yourself and in order to be able to replace this secret you need separate keys that will be you know like if you you need to have to preserve the continuity of your address but you also need the ability to rotate the keys because those are going to be the keys that if you lose them you will lose all of the insight into what what

the state of your account of your privacy applications and you will not be able to recover that so like there are multiple ux challenges around privacy and you just need code you just need smart contracts you need some programmable logic in order to implement them yeah that makes a lot of sense and like even thinking from uh you know I spend a lot of time on doing analyzing data so like using the example if I was looking at users that have interacted with a uni swap pool let's say would a smart contract will all still have that same like uh you know from address when I'm looking at a user that's made a swap through a pool yeah it will feel exactly the same way except for

the part of actually verifying authorizing transactions and pain fees exciting so even if I was using uh like a pay Master right so someone else was or another address is making the payment on top of uh for for my transaction uh would that still kind of have that same ux as well correct the you your interaction with the paymaster smart contract that is paying for the transaction to the validators of the transaction is separate from the actual transaction that originates in your account and goes towards the protocol you want so you can think of it as two separate transactions one is current and doing the uni swap trade and then one is going to a separate account and and paying the

fees or maybe uni swap contract itself will be paying fees and you okay it offers it guarantees you that you're only paying a percentage of your trade and then whatever fees are currently in the market they are covered by The Treasure of the protocol which is also a nice user experience because you you have a guaranteed like it's very similar to how you would trade on centralized exchanges or like Robinhood app now something that gets me super excited about account abstraction is uh when looking at stable coins you know that's kind of proven to be one of krypto's killer use cases with over a hundred billion dollars of stable coins in the middle of a bear market so uh Could you um kind of describe how uh stable coins

and account abstraction could could work together to really enable crypto rails payments and then Alex I know you guys had a cool event at eat Denver that had something of the sorts on display so maybe kick it over to you to start sure so with while stable coins are important is because it's very hard to explain to Ordinary People what is ether what is guess why I need several tokens you know like it you create a whole Space of mental models that needs to be filled before the person even can start using some application whereas compare that to an experience of I just send you like you're new to crypto and I say look I'll send you a hundred dollars to play with give me your like give me your

address just download this app you will see the address and you can invite me I'll send you some 100 virtual dollars you know you don't have to understand any of that you're just like okay then you see like the value is 100 usdc or or die or UCT or whatever which corresponds to 100 fine now you can just send it to someone or you can go and buy an nft or you can go and interact with protocols and then you will pay fees as a percentage of that that's a super simple model to understand so I had an experience with a friend of mine received a payment for some Consulting work he did in crypto like he downloaded the wallet and he was sent 1000 usdc and he was he called me and said like look I'm trying to to send it to an exchange

to to transfer to my bank account and I can't because it says that I need to pay the fees in ether and like it says like not enough funds but I have one thousand dollars like how is it not enough funds and I'm like well you you have you need some ether to be able to pay for this transaction he was like yeah I figured that out already so I try to swap this usdc into ether to pay guests but it says I don't don't have enough uh funds to to make the swap so it's kind of this cage 24 22 Loop which which is you know like which is very hard to explain and like most people will fail if just left along with this uh you stable coins being able to pay fees is a fraction of like we're never talking your

transaction with solves the problem and pays the path for uh for much easier experience on the board joy and I'm curious do you have anything to add to that no I I love the example that that Alex gave and again at Arjun you know we if for those who've used Arjun you'll realize that you can pay near C20 tokens because being a smart contract wallet that that very Loop that Alex mentioned that complexity and necessary complexity will identify it right away and so even though we were not using directly to pay Master as defined in lc4337 because we had our own implementation of that entire meta transaction part but we've had lots of users who are just you know

paid in transaction and die meaning that they only die in their account and that was sufficient exactly like Alex mentioned you don't need to think about having a another currency to make your transaction the way I see it as well I think is that account abstraction is really a way to abstract not only accounts but the complexity and the friction of interaction interacting with blockchain abstracting the protocol because again as a user you don't care about the protocol you care about the application the user experience and so for me eth is actually a part of the protocol it's only there to pay transaction fee to the miner that's really at that base layer but normal and majority of of users

shouldn't care about that that lower level of of the protocol they only care about the application in this case the application is having a currency having dollars in your account and making payments so yeah I think I mean again being able to sponsor transaction or to pay transaction in stable coin is a very important use cases of account attraction yeah but was going to say to extend on that that's one but I think the ability to sponsor transaction is another important one I think in the future you know that may want to you know pay the transaction fee of of the first five transaction of users on the platform for example I mean there's a lot of model that that will come

um you know uh and that can be enabled because you have a kind of traction and you can have a pay Master at Arjun when we started we believe that users shouldn't have to pay transaction fees the same way that if you go on an application on web 2 you actually don't pay the cost of the AWS server that's running the application you come to an application and maybe you pay because there's a business model but you don't see all that that base layer of of the interaction and we felt it was it should be the same on ethereum so we started by by sponsoring transaction you know I think there will be a lot of a lot of use cases like that that will be enabled because you have the ability to either sponsor or pay transaction fees in a different token I think we'll again see

a an entire design space and that will enable and trigger a lot of innovation I I just wanted to do that exact same thing and say that I'm really curious to see of uh at all the creative ways people are going to use in account abstraction like not always straightforward examples that we're always using but like really pay the fees if you're the first 100 mentors of this nft collection then a Visa can recovery for you or if you own this nft you're a member of this club and all the transactions are going to be covered for for you like or of this dial then the transactions can be covered for you by the dollar treasury or um you're paying for some goods and services and like starting with certain amount of transactions are gonna be free

for you just like shipping is free for you if you purchase something on Amazon starting at certain certain price uh you know like all this like in unconventional ways where you can program things that look at certain properties of the user of the transaction of the interaction itself take them into account and decide on how um how this is going to be taken into uh you know in in consideration for by the paymaster one thing that is another uh kind of like an unlock with account abstraction that I don't think we've hit on yet is is session keys or the idea of signing um you know signing transactions for a given period of time which anybody who played some of the OG crypto games maybe like D5 kingdoms uh you know signing a

transaction after every time you interacted with a part of the game is one of the most brutal experiences uh is there anyone that's using session keys in a really exciting way that uh maybe you guys have spoken with or or helped build yeah I mean I can comment on that funny story again we kind of had the idea of session keys I think in 2018 and we implemented in you know in the Arjun Arjun wallet or ethereum nobody cared and by the way our implementation was not that efficient and then the smart guy ethereum more or less at the same time they're also building a smart contract wallet they kind of improved on on our design but again we call them that Keys nobody cared I don't think that the single users you know use use that and so now that we know we are kind

of bringing back these ideas because there are no much more affordable because of of layer twos um we have we've seen some some use cases in in Unchained gaming for the moment in the stock net ecosystem because you know that we have an implementation of session keys on on stack net we are yet to make that happen on zkc one of the main reason is that on on stacknet we have a browser extension which is much more developer focused and so we kind of gave you know tools for developers to to mess around and for the moment on the case thing we have our mobile application we support the casing error and by the way that's an announcement I should make that we are supporting the casing era in the you know the Arjun mobile application for

the moment only available for developers but so if there are developers you know working on zkasing era feel free to you know ping me and we'll get you on board but so anyway yes there are some games that are experimenting with session keys I think for me a killer combination is actually session keys with multiple because so the idea of session Keys is that a dab or a game will basically create a key locally during the session there will be some constraint Associated to that key and the account will authorize that key so for example the game will say I want to authorize a session key for 20 minutes and the key can only call this and that contract and this and that method as a user you approve this is all happening on chain so all these constrained these policies

they are really at the level of your your account on chain and after that the the DAP in this case the game can make direct transaction to your account so it no longer needs to call your wallet you see a pop-up you approve so every on-chained action is actually transparent to the user and users can really focus on the game so that's of course that's fantastic but I think there's a trade-off to find people imagine that they will send transaction every 10 seconds even though you know even if layer twos are very cheap this is probably not going to happen so what we are seeing on on stock net for the moment is that is game developers combining that with multiple so when you play the game they will basically stack you know transaction with the session key say for one two or three minutes in

a multicol and then at the end of that that period two three minutes they basically send all these transaction and they reconcile this the state so you kind of combine The Best of Both Worlds you are not making too much transaction which is really inefficient and will end up being costly even if it's a layer two um but but at the same time you can really benefit from from that amazing experience and if for some reason something goes wrong you are only losing say a minute of your game because every minute your you know your game reconcile all these these small transactions so again I think this I mean session keys are I believe required for launching games uh but I think they will be required for other stuff but then again for me we see that as a as an unlocker

of of possibilities if you give smart developers new tool to play with I think they will use them in ways that we are not even thinking of uh and the example of combining session keys with multicore I think is something we did not anticipate but I think there will be much more you know amazing use cases unlocked by by Technologies like that is there a lot of different implementations of account abstraction like the let's say the one that's native to starknet and then also the one that's native to ZK sync era like do we think that this is kind of like proof systems and that everyone just kind of building and innovating in different ways and eventually will settle on a unified format or is it kind of apples and

oranges in that respect that's a good question I'll let Alex comment on that but for more point of view of developers what we are seeing I think is that a lot of people agrees erc4337 is actually a great architecture account abstraction is actually very complicated when you start digging it's not complicated to understand but if you want to make it right if you want to make sure you don't don't open you know ddis attack Vector for the protocol and so on it's actually complicated to get it right and the previous attempts of account abstraction the previous EIP is that try to do so they're always at some of the they were unlocking some of the possibilities of account abstraction but not all of them and 4337 really finds the correct tuning

I think is the correct approach and the correct architecture but again as I mentioned I don't think 437 is the end of the road but because it answers most of the question and you know basically from solution for the main majority of difficulties the layer choose can be inspired by 4337 and simply taking one level down and so the implementation of account abstraction of ZK sync is not exactly the same but it's very very similar to to the one that stagnet is doing because they are both taking 4337 as is and bringing it one layer down so there might be a few few differences here and there but 95 is is the same and conception is the

same for developers which I think is really good so what I believe is that it's kind of a no-brainer that all year twos on ethereum will adopt a kind of abstraction and if they bring it natively it will be some variation of erc437 so they will be very very similar with with small differences at that point it would be of course great to have some kind of a standard and make sure they are you know equivalent from a developer's point of view will that happen I don't know but what is sure is that they will be in my opinion there will be equivalent up to you know some minor differences but but globally they will be very very similar Alex do you have any thoughts there

uh yeah I I think that uh we will Converse so we'll work working very closely with ethereum foundation on on uh following like our particle Falls largely the design of AP 45337 with only minor deviations that were necessary to actually Implement natively on the political level and uh we as uh Julian said some of these changes were taken back by ethereum Foundation they realized that uh it's a good addition to the protocol so we we expect the protocols to cooperate and eventually come up with a single standard awesome well that's all the questions I had for you guys today thank you guys so

much for coming on and being generous with your time do you guys want to take a second uh to share with the audience where they can find out more about your projects and and yourselves Julian I can kick it over to you first yeah I mean uh we love people you know to to experiment native account abstraction today so go to www.argin.xyz and there you'll get you know access to our different products and specifically for ZK sync if you are building on Z casing era ping me you know over over Twitter or get access to us because we want to give access to to dabs so they can really start you know building uh and see what experience they can deal with that kind of Attraction today so again if you're building on zkasing era contact Arjun and would love

to give you access to your or mobile application and get you started building and for us you can find us on Twitter under zksync and yeah our website is zikasync.io you will find all contact information there and you can follow us on social networks and I want to share also that we're still actively hiring after raising a significant series C very recently so we're really welcome at the lies we're we're not laying off and not not going to lay off anyone growing steadily but slowly if you are an engineer with experience in smart contracts security and building um protocols especially protocol design especially senior Engineers or even the

rust engineer or you have experience in consensus mechanisms and you want to help us scale ethereum uh please contact us you will find the the information on our website awesome thank you guys so much we'll catch you guys later