How To Unify The Ethereum Community

Transcript

what's going on guys welcome back to another episode of the rollup and today's episode is with our good friend and ethereum researcher Emanuel he also leads the 2077 Collective which is primarily focused on fixing ethereum's marketing problem you may have seen emanuel's tweets all over the timeline and he is absolutely crushing it and has tons of insights on where ethereum is right now how we can make ethereum cool again and bring together all of these fragmented rollups into one unified ethereum hope you guys enjoy today's episode before we get into it first a word from our sponsors Everclear is pioneering the clearing layer the

clearing layer can almost be thought of as splitwise when you go on a trip with friends but for the blockchain what I mean by that is when users are sending cross chain messages there's often times fillers and solvers who have balances left on different chains that they need to rebalance and reset their positions this is where ever comes in ever is pioneering a collaborative approach to the chain abstraction future and they are willing to work with interoperability Partners solvers and other providers in the space to build a interoperable and chain abstraction feature check out Everclear ever clear.org and welcome back to the L up what's going on guys welcome back to the rollup today we are going to address

ethereum's marketing problem the progressive decentralization of rollups whether or not ethereum should have base layer changes this idea of making ethereum cool again that Emanuel is pioneering with a collective dub 2077 Collective and the EIP 2077 um and honestly just shoot the and have some fun so uh Rob GM and uh what's going on man GM we've been uh we've been slamming it post ECC so this is uh part of the new uh rendition of podcasts that are coming down the pipeline uh we got a chance to meet up with Emanuel who has a very uh WIS looking profile

picture and uh the personality stands up to the profile picture in person so Emanuel welcome to the roll up man I feel like it's been a long time coming yeah thank you for having me uh big fun so it's it's like a dream having to VI so yeah cheers man I mean you uh you got ethereum 2770 uh 2077 started um because ethereum doesn't quite have a marketing department like a lot of these other big tech companies or salana um you know the ethereum foundation is very research focused does like very little to no marketing and so now you kind of like saw that as a problem and you're ready

to solve that problem so first tell us about like why it's a problem that ethereum doesn't have a marketing department and then we'll get into the solution I think the problem is at the end of the day we trying to like build Tech and the idea is to get people using the tech and building on the tech which is like that's kind of point so like use acquisition and build develop application like with two goals because if you have a dead chain no one uses it so like it could be the best chain in the world and no one using it like no one's going to Care like there are actual chains out there that are very good um I mean not good to name like there are good chains out there that no one uses so that's like the end goal and the fact that we spend so much time on

trying to like build this stuff and not trying to like get into hands of people or think about like Mass abortion or not like Mass adoption in cringy next bilon users but like at least in the sense of like trying to get more people into the ecosystem more people building on Tech more people using the tech that's an issue um I think it's a Nob Brown I think it's just because in crypto like crypto is not like standard but like for standard tech companies this is like you know BR like apple invests so much in ads and narrative making and all that Amazon does this Tesla does this so like it's a standard for like if you're building Tech you need to like Market it but ethereum we've not really done that and I think the issue was because like maybe the competitive landscape looked very

different in 2019 but funny enough there was this there was a marketing deal I mean I just found out I found out after the collective started but there was an actual marketing deal back in 2019 that had the same it was very like similar like the same um the same Insight that I had so now if you imagine that we had a marketing de that wanted to solve quote unquote the marketing problem back in 2019 you must imagine the problem was worsened in the likeing five years in the next cir five years so yeah so I feel like the the end issue of not like feing marketing seriously like we lose mind share we lose Investments we lose Developers like in the end you become this fining like that want is um people

think it cannot happen um for certain reasons like there's this network effect and then like big lead and all that like in Tech you just need maybe one breakout application or something there's like so many weird Edge event that you're not like going to predict that can like change the game so far so when say people say something like well eum has W and blah blah I'm like hey you're like new competitors com on ground and stuff and you need like compete so that's like my thesis in general yeah I mean like I I just am trying to figure out where ethereum's like current like narrative is for the different people in the space like if we're thinking about the space you've got like the people that are here that are using defi that are engaging on

chain they don't want to use ethereum they have a problem with ethereum because the gas fees on layer one and this the transactions times which like understandable like okay fine um this makes sense and and I think that that's generally like reasonable tick so okay so so we have rollups right we have arbitrum and optimism and all these other rollups um that exist they are much faster much cheaper much better and that the only issue right there for the community I think uh is they are not seen as extensions of ethereum rather their own entity so like that's like within the space and then you have like you know centralized exchange users which I think are a little bit different but then you have like people who aren't even in crypto whether it be people that

are going to buy eum ETF or institutions or family offices or investment funds and these types of people as well as just like average folk and I I don't know how you explain ethereum to these people like like how do you explain ethereum to um to to like somebody who is reasonably versed within the tra traditional Finance system but perhaps not at all in crypto uh I think I think the The Narrative of like open finance open permissionless uh maybe s resistance and like finan like really good because I'm not like the the kind of person that say well like traditional fin like defi is going to like replace

traditional finance and like they're going to burn down Wall Street or whatever it is but like there starting efficiencies that defi gives you so um better settlements whatever it is like that kind of operational efficiency that come from having things going on chain so for example you can compare how how do us payments compared to say PayPal or themo for example so those are like some of the things you can you can like expain to so it should be and again this is kind of why I I tend to say that you need to First treat ethereum as a tech project like if you can say this is this is Tech and then like this are the advantages of this Tech then we have like a place to um to come out from um

and it's hard problem because the thing is you're trying to communicate ethereum to like so many people institutions and and normal like what you said like there's defi people there's like normies and all that but I feel like what I'm really what I really want to work on for like next couple months to kind of like have this messaging that's not monolithic like I'm just doing know like it's modular enough to like accommodate different things so I feel currently what we've had in the system is this sense of we need to say one thing um it's tokenization or it's or it's sound money something like so we sort of like we we have this path dependence where we lock ourselves into one thing and it becomes how to like because if you say something like well e is just sound

money that doesn't appeal to developers and like you're pushing out you're pushing it with developers so you want something a message that s like accommodates everyone um and that's like something I feel like we can can definitely walk towards so so that's just like my take yeah I kind of like the ultrasound money idea but um the ethereum burn just isn't happening anymore so I mean I'm I'm you know on record for for like protesting against sound money in general not because I don't I don't like the online Theory I just feel like it's trying too much to be like Bitcoin and the reason Bitcoin has that claim to being ultasound sound money is because of like different qualities like say like pratal ification and all that I'm like there's you can

like compete with Bitcoin like ethereum and Bitcoin like way to different things so I I personally do not like pushing some money that much because then you run into this very cognitive dissonance because now for example a good example is this and was there's this proposal we like like change issuance because of like a m of different factors and when it came out it was this like big opero oh my goodness is not going to be some anymore but like the truth is it was never supposed to be like it was just a meme like and then people took it up and then formed like theories around it and now it's this thing that's supposed to be like guiding like protocol decisions and all that so yeah I mean I think we definitely like me to more facets just

just for me it's funny because like vitalic put out a post not that long ago about layer twos as like cultural extensions of ethereum and how I think like the ultrasound money group and so he in that article he lays out three different like sub subcultures of ethereum he lays out the cipher punks uh who are like legitimately like the builders and the people that are like writing smart contracts uh the degens who are trading meme coins and nfts and you know doing that whole thing and basically in it for the in it for the speculation and then he and then the Regens who are like the trying to build technology in a regenerative way and

like a constructive way not a destructive way these are people that are like voting on governance and like working on public goods and like gitcoin grants and that sort of thing and so I think like each of these people have a very distinct set of uh incentives and uh reasons why they like ethereum um and so ultrasound money is going to prescribe to like the people that enjoy like the monetary benefits of it each of these different subgroups are going to have their own narratives as to like why they like ethereum and so I think part of ethereum's benefit is like it was always this group of Misfits it was always like this thing that like didn't just have one narrative but it had multiple narratives and it did it in

a way that it was almost able to across these very different subgroups and build like something that all of them could work together and kind of like come to an understanding of a greater good and so now like it's almost like each of those three have a different proposition like they have they have an alternative that is better at each subcategory but there in my opinion there's nothing that really ties them together and that I think that is ethereum's value proposition is like cuz like frankly like there is still cyppher punks that love Bitcoin the DG are loving salana the Regens you know there's arguably like more like public good elements now that ethereum has the

ETF it's kind of lost its open source nature but I think part of ethereum's value proposition is coordination of the three distinct groups that we see on chain now I'm like do you guys do you guys think that like that's enough to or or is there another way that you guys are seeing this so I think and this something i' like talked about um this is why I've been so particular about not describing like etherum as a cyer pun chain or a regen chain or a de chain and all of that like because I feel like one this things are way too restrictive so but the danger for etherum is because when you have like very influential people that have specific qualities they

tend to like project that for example a maybe maybe someone like v may say well I want to be very C so everyone think well vitalik is cyer so must be a cyer chain or or maybe like it's it's some from the money Camp is very influential so what so what they say now s like maps on to like the public reputation of what etherum is and because again we don't have that marketing department as like pushing out something really consistent and so I I think so something I I mean people see me talk about a lot and I feel like the good thing about um only possible that narrative is because it's very Broad and like it's it's it accommodates many things do you understand like you can build on SOL you

can so everything we are seeing like on eum for example we can do all of that on SOL for example you can do region stuff you can do public goods funding if you wanted so if you can do to you can toiz security so like it's this narrative that sort of like Embraces having a multicultural like landscape in general so like for for ethereum we've not been able to really do that so what you what you really see is sort of like Chambers in general so like there's the C people saying like their stuff I mean sometimes you hear stuff like and I and I and I call this out a lot like this sense of like there's a nation state coming there's like attacks com like you need to do something that's more realistic and pragmatic because right now like assuming it's true we are like designing

for like worst edge cases but like we also need to like face reality like in present right now like build for like what people want now uh you have like the the the ETF one like the money like it's almost like there this bad EO chamber where like everyone is just like saying their narrative and stuff so I think we can definitely coordinate it's just difficult it's I think it's become more difficult because now you even have like more financial incentives because for example the um the camp that says like e should sound money and stuff it's usually made up of like people that started owning ethereum oding e at maybe like 2017 when it was just like very cheap and stuff so if ethereum doesn't if eies Prett much Sur and becomes

Bitcoin well like your quote unquote your vs increase and all that so there's not Financial incentive in in in place and stuff so it makes it so difficult to actually like like simple set of M so it's it's all of this things are more I think and the is he also goes down like down if you want to take more to a more complex route you can think of like protocol governance too as because this actually affect protal governance you know when um we talk about like changing the L1 which something we are also going to discuss people like oh no like e going to lose because now you're changing L1 and stuff and Cy be like well

so the The Cypher Camp is like oh no the only changes we should make are the ones that buyas for cens resistance not the ones that buyas for ux as well so these are like problems I think they like most people don't talk about these problems but like those problems are there um and I'm not going to like solve because those are like big problems big Community problems but I think what I can just help do what I think I really want to do is have this messaging that like that puts people first um ethereum should be a place for Builders it should encourage Innovation um it's not just about like number go up and like all of that like the original goal was like build stuff so um it should be a place for people should come in and try new

tech and it should not be really elitist because at some point when we talk about decentralization and credible neutrality see we usually sound like Lenox maximalist like there's like overlaps there and I feel like we should definitely change that so you like like make pool again is this sense of make it welcoming for people make it um less elitist make it have this culture where like you want to be that's that's the good thing about I can have to give this to them like they build this culture where like you want to be there because everyone is there like it feels like you can come in there like no one is going to judge you and it's not like a church or anything like that so yeah I just like in coming months for us we should just s like coordinate around something

that like ignites everyone in general so I think that sounds really good in theory but like it's difficult it's like ultim in practice people play to the incentives you know and so like yeah I would love to say that like I want to be on ethereum because you know the Vibes are good everyone's here it's a good friendly Vibe but if I could make 10 times more money on salana I gotta pay bills you know like maybe I I do like maybe I would have more fun on ethereum but like I go to salana because I gotta survive right so like is it you know like how do we solve the I think ultimately like we could argue about

whether it's an engineering problem or it's a culture problem but I think ultimately it's an incentive thing and it's like how do we get the incentives right so that the people not just want to build on ethereum but it's like in their best economic self interest to build on ethereum too this is this like something I I thought about a lot so something if people people that follow my T um know I've talked a lot about like super te um so like what does for like so so like when you come in for example you come in and there's something called super team earn where you can like work for pay and all that like and it's a very good it's a very powerful um on boarding to because you can come in as a builder you can get like Grant like build stuff like no

we don't have anything like that in ethereum in ethereum there's way too much PVP so like you come to ethereum right now you some people don't have access to funding they don't know what to talk to they don't I was asking someone um a few days ago I was like if you want to build an app in E ecosystem would you go to like I don't know but like you want to do Sol now well you just go to super and stuff so building something and this person want to build the collective have this sense of like first let's give like Builders the support they want connect into resources like the money is there it's just not allocated well enough so that's like one one part of like the economic incenses I we need to make it I mean I have I usually have this when people like

around credibly neutral but like we need to have this neutral platform where Builders come to the ecosystem can actually like get forun to build stuff and it's not tied to one L2 so it doesn't mean like well I'm going to deploy on optimism and stay there and like I was not deploy elsewhere let's let's fix that and also having like something this is just like a random idea that we are like testing out a bouny platform um people should be able to so right now we don't really have something like that I think that there are some products but they're not really it doesn't feel like they represent the ecosystem so if you have like a bouny platform people come in they can work on cool things maybe it's Arts maybe it's whatever it is because to give you like

a case study um so now I've done like he spend like a lot on like blinks development I was talking one I was like if you give Builders gr to actually build stuff it's not charity like see how much like son I spend on like big blink development that stuff pushes the ecosystem forward and is there a couple of that trying to like build they trying to like build something for the E eem like that too but you don't have support so we need to be able to like connect resources and the platform and then give people that sense of okay you can contribute to the ecosystem and also make money because truth is one of the biggest problem we have in right right now is there's because of way he started it started as this volunteer um Indie Al

stuff so there's this very emphasis on like volunteering and sacrificing your time and all that but like you don't attract top political talent that way so I really want to like in the future people should be able to come in and contribute and like earn for it and not be forced to so like make these very bad tradeoffs in sense so I don't ANW the question yeah yeah yeah I mean that is is uh that is the the interesting part of like this like Dow idea or like these like open communities um there there's a lot to unpack there um you know with regards to kind of the the way that we can shift the positioning of ethereum as well as just uh the way that we interact as a community um the the thing in

particular that I think is interesting is this idea that you brought up about how uh the the subgroups that Rob laid out have different preferences for the way operations or the way that ethereum's future should go and I think that the big conversation now is like around do we need to make changes to the ethereum base layer and like how is this going to look because you're saying like Okay the cyberpunks they don't want changes to the censorship resistance or kind of immutability of ethereum however some of like the more uh you know some of the other subgroups perhaps may see value from like a ux

perspective or from a a use case perspective to make changes to the base layer such that it can rival a faster based layer with lower slot times and vitalic even proposed that at ECC as well so let's kind of open Pandora's Box here and discuss uh from a high level kind of what your perspective is on changing the ethereum base layer and why is that something that's even in the Zeitgeist right now because I thought and I from from a lot of people's perspective I think is ethereum's base layer is basically as aifi as Bitcoin but ironically we're also seeing Bitcoin

being proposed to make Bas layer changes as well so we're in this very weird time where both of the biggest crypto assets are being proposed or at least there's more thought than in the previous five years about changes to the base layer so um yeah let's kind of open open this up and discuss why or why not uh changes to ethereum's based layer is potentially a good idea um I think because again like again this is like B like philosophy of like treating as a tech project if you imagine it's a tech project you imagine that like there's like changes you need to make and like you need to stay competitive so um I've pushed for changes at base later because I think it's just a new Briner in a sense like

the idea of like the whole Ro of Cent road map was that you can it wasn't that you you should like aify the L1 prematurely it's just a sense of you don't need to comp like there's there's less stress on core developers to push upgrades that that fast and like the logic is simple the logic is like something like eum is never going to comp say like just shipping speed so like you have like L to to like do that which is true but then doesn't mean like the bus itself should not like never improve you still want to improve but just at a slower rate because something I usually tell people is like the road map the one the popular one um publishes every year it's like 40% or 30% complete

so like there's a long list of like of like um changes you want to make there's say lower SL times there is single St finality there is e uh there's native account abstraction so like there's this things and we all admit that these things are good so these things require change to the Bas layer so I think I don't think it's it's really healthy to for us to say something like well we need to just us fight because of something something maybe some weird some weird Reasons I'm seeing weird reasons like well it this going to be the um backbone of financial system they like we needy prematur I'm like Financial system is just one part and this is like something like I mean

if if if we if we already coordinated decision making before we can always coordinate decision making in the future so like that's that's not a good reason and competing Bitcoin is also not a good reason because it doesn't make sense because in the end I feel like one of the issues I usually have with like saying let's altify because of the money aspect is you essentially saying like the only thing you care about is each olders and you not really caring about like users and Builders and stuff and that's like not really good so um so yeah I think I think basic changes make sense at least within that constraint of we don't want to sacrifice starting quality is and this is a big issue because I feel like many many people in E Community have this black or white

thinking where it's like you make changes or you don't you either um if you make changes you're sacrificing digitalization if you don't make changes you and which is wrong because for example someone said something about eum being like engineering focused like if you say something like well we want to allow people on consumer valid the chain well we need to be precise about what consumer hardw means consumer hardw is 20 20 2019 is not the same as consumer now so we need to like Define a precise limit and increase the gas limit to account for those things so like but we don't have this conversations because I don't know it's just we never have this conversation so like I feel like in conversation around the B like there was

this exchange between um I think Peter from the G them and P League where it was like well they're going to m home stakers and V has like come in and say well like that's not actually true like sure like home sckers might be affected but like there are ways we can work around this and this is something I really want to Comm Community like for example if you're going to do something like say sing Single St finality you might not have so you don't because single St finality doesn't really like work with so many validators so we need to like reduce validator accounts but then a potential work around is you sort of like accelerate distribu validators so for example me you Robbie we can have like one cluster and like we all Solis you're pulling say maybe eight e or how

however much you're pulling like it's still solo stickers but not solo stickers the way you know it so like that's like so there's head room something from Charlie from parad say like there's head room that we can like explore if you creative enough if we think ux matters if we think Skilling matters not 15c blog times and high gas feed and so like this are engineering problems and we should be ambitious enough to like solve engineering problems so yeah I feel like we just need to like recover our mission because that's something I feel I don't know maybe at some point maybe after the merge like lost it and this is like a meme people people say oh now that merge is done we're going to do more like less

ambitious upgrades and I don't think it's really like valid because even if even if it's a case of well some Engineers have lost their ambition like maybe just play engine you don't say something like well because I don't want to do this anymore so we should not do anything anymore I think that's I don't think that's like the right perspective to say mantle is a layer 2 blockchain with one of the biggest onchain treasuries in all of crypto and they have aund day campaign called metamorphosis live now what this is is it is a campaign for their liquid state eth token M eth as well as their upcoming liquid reaking token c m e where you can utilize this token on the mantle Network in a variety of different apps some of your favorite reaking

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build on a full Linux environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to cars.io that's cy. to learn more about building your own app chain today yeah what about um just real quick on that point um uh so you think that basically adjusting the base layer or sorry the proponents of the them Community who do not want to adjust the base layer are like eth holders who do not want to take extra risk with their financial assets versus the the community who's pushing forward for making changes to the base layer regardless of what those changes are which we can talk about uh is more

of the user and Builder and kind of developer Community who wants to see ethereum compete in Thrive longterm as a network less so necessarily as like an asset yeah I mean it's more Nuance so for example there's that set I mean I'm going to record but like there's that said like this just based on like my my my what what I've seen there's that said there's also people who are like well um ethereum is now like they not necess like holders like not big holders but like they concerned that like if you keep shipping like upgrades like this network you you increase the chance of a consensus breaking BG like in sense of like if you have a BG we like chain split someone is going to lose money because there's going to be like two

canonical forks and we need to like choose one so like someone is going to lose oneone so like that's like one angle I've seen especially among po developers we like hey eum is no eum is no longer like this network securing like 60 million it's securing like I think 430 billion right now so and that's like valid perspective as well but I just think like again because we're humans and not robots so there's times when like we just over index and starting things to the point where we think oh my goodness don't break anything and that becomes don't touch anything like don't touch anything is like is this Hammer with a nail this man with a hammer approach that says well this is this blanket solution like don't

do anything just leave it there and I'm like they're like again this is goes back to the point of being ambitious and stuff like of course the more values at stake the more testing you need to do the more type you need to do like that's we should be instead of having approaching this conversation from like don't do anything we should approach this conversation from okay we want to do something what are the obstacles how do we solve it and yeah that goes back to the whole idea of like being engineering focus and product Focus yep I also think that like in this framing like uh the marketing slogan of like Mega eth make ethereum great again and also like what you guys are saying with make ethereum cool again uh take it for what it is I don't think does great

marketing because it's like it implies that the current state is not great nor cool I think I saw a mer tweet about this a couple days ago and I I highly resonated with that one so food for thought there um I think I think I don't think it's it's that it's that problematic I mean as person would say make because the truth is if we run a survey right now I don't think e SCH pass that high this just me speaking um and and factor is not just because of well it's a bad chain that's like so so again this is like a perception problem I mean if I say Robbie is not cool it's just me telling you Robbie is not cool Robbie my Robbie is cool is a cool

person person it's a frustra problem I mean man like I'm not sure when like dev's coding solidity programming language and smart contracts is ever going to be cool it's the thing funny thing about it so for example um again we're going to as a to point when you think of Builders like when you think of an ecosystem of builders that looks like Silicon Valley what comes to mind if I if I run the survey and I put ethereum and like people most people tell it's not like coincidence or really like it's it's a it's a perception problem like this sense of the builders in etherum don't really talk like they not have their B

posting and like nerd sniping people and say hey I'm working on this oh it's cool and stuff like every like every time I look into City everything I see is it's solst oh people are doing this on Solana this is possible in Solana someone is building this thing I'm like we do have these things on ethereum like that's if you follow my tweet I try to like do this a lot like we do have this in ethereum but like no one is talking about it so we do need to talk about it so and also like the whole idea of like make E I think I just think is I mean because for example rups are good but like they could be better so I mean I stand I think like what you guys yeah exactly like we the ethereum community needs more young people that want to support

it and like bring culture on chain I I generally agree with that um I mean it's just nitpicking really uh one thing and then I know Rob's got quite a few questions uh which base layer changes are you a fan of and which base layer changes are you not so much of a fan of and why I think Native Native instruction is very good cuz like as for ux so there's like e 7702 com in and then there like the more complex ones the actual native account like gives those like accounts and all that like comes on um I think that's something I'm really um big on P is also good because like the data like Bon for rollups so solving that is really good because my

my my face is really like I think when thatp like P came up I was like if you don't improves eum dat avability people are going to use alternative deal layers and like that is I mean they're good for like specific use cases but like you don't want everyone s sing out the because of like more TR assumption so if you've chosen roll of centric road map well we best do whatever it takes like for the roll of centc Ro to work I feel like those two are really um critical can't think of like maybe lower store times maybe I think that's good single finality is also good from like ux perspective I think that's something um with people have been discussing hope like it comes um soon enough I'm as for

BS changes that I don't think that I have strong opinions about not really sure I think I just really have like I won say skepticism I think I won't say skepticism I just feel like sometimes me research like dominate too much and there like this over allocation of like because it's sexy so and I I really fear that sometimes there's this um I don't know if you know this game this work where like you just like hit something and it comes up in another place so there's this infinite h r between like us trying to like do M and like let's quote unquote fix m in a sense um I just hope that we don't over index on that at the expense of like

doing more ux stuff more build stuff more because again like it's there's time and energy is finite so like I would not want us to like spend cash resource resarch energy on like we should start maximizing Roi and say hey if you're going to do this this is why we're doing and this is something I think I think one of Charlie said it like this sense of there are certain things we need to prioritize like we don't really do that and I I wish could that so yeah I think me is actually a big culprit of why ethereum has its like elitist attitude or like elitist culture behind it because me had such a like steep rise to dominance in the Zite guys that people didn't have time to really

understand it and then before it was too late it was like oh everyone's getting cucked by me and it's like no normies can exist because like you know everyone's getting wrecked by slippage and only the select few people are the ones that are benefiting from me and so then it's like well now the rich are getting richer the normies aren't winning and ethereum is an elitist chain we have to go to a different chain like Solana where there's memes and it's fun and warmies can make money and again it's just an incentive thing and so like yeah I think I think like it fundamentally is like this incentive problem that drives culture um or maybe it's the culture that drives the

incentives but you know we we do have to like figure out a way to either make the changes at the base layer so that it is more supportive and more people can just win at the base layer or like everyone just moves to l2s and ethereum finds a way to be okay with that um yeah that that's that's definitely something I mean I mean I don't think like we're going to get to a state where like everyone is on elos and it's not like totally necessary that's like I think that's like one of the recognization like that's why we went pretty Ro Centric like this s of not everyone needs to be on L1 I just have this problem with framing it like no one use l1's and I think like that's like very terrible because in the end like there's D5 people that can use L1 for St

reason like unisoft is still on L1 there like tons of like applications1 that people should still use and funny enough there's still M on like son like people get soundwich all the time so it's it's a messaging thing so like one messaging like fix messaging and two we also need to be actually very serious about okay see we have this L2 Centric road map how do we make it work for users like what changes do we actually for example was this time I was like posting something like IBC for L2 because I mean everyone like Bing socks and all that like in the sense of how do we build our infra standards how do we coordinate around this to actually make l2s a viable alternative to rollups that's why like

I'm also like big on like pias for example so like and that's something we don't really think about because there's this sense of well you've handed everything all to so like they can just solve it on their own which is not possible so yeah I'm I'm kind of thinking like like I'm on the fence about these ba these changes to the Basel because I I'm I'm getting to the opinion of like well yes we want to make changes to the base layer because it's like you got to adapt or die right and so we have to continue to innovate otherwise something better is going to come along and eat ethereum's lunch but because ethereum is rollup Centric it doesn't necessarily mean that we have to adapt the base later so that retail users are using L1 like I think maybe ethereum is more mature now than it was

a few years ago where like yeah maybe retail users were using the L1 before but like if an institution comes along like wants to create their own app chain they're gonna probably do that on ethereum right it's G to end up settling to ethereum and so maybe that's okay and we just fill up all of the ethereum block space with rollups and there aren't it's like it's like Solana is going through like its retail Normy Mo moment and it's getting a lot of users but ethereum's going through it's like institutional moment and yeah maybe you get you call it elitist but those are the projects those are the companies with distribution and so if an institution comes along and launches an app chain as long as it settles to

ethereum like and that institution reaches users there's still a potential for ethereum to reach a million billion users you know but no one's using the L1 it's just everyone's using these app chain rollups and then they settle to the L1 so I'm curious Emanuel like what is your perspective on the app chain thesis or like the rollup Centric road map in general do you think people should use the L1 or do you think people like just use rollups and then like all of the ethereum block space just filled up with rollup data um I think I think I think the thing that it's not M it's not mutually exclusive I think there a mistake usually make this sense of well it's centr like nothing is happen on everything happen because the truth is if you check it right now people are

still using main Nets so like they have reasons for using main Nets um maybe it's like UniFi liquidity or whatever I mean whatever reasons they want to use M for maybe it's compos compossibility between like apps and all that so my contention like let's at least make the L1 hitable for some apps it's not super difficult to do that and then if we want to have like high performance apps we can like do them on rups I feel like RS are already well developed today so like I wouldn't advise the average user to use Ru up right I would advise the average user to like use the L1 do you understand but like we should not quote unquote push users like deliberately now push users out of the L1 and then sell

this idea of oh it's a B2B chain and like it's just the big boys using this chain I don't think that's like really um good because at the same time I think now there's this dispute around whether like blob fees actually are to L1 like you still need some level of economic activity on chain to actually do certain things because for example this just my toy like toy math like let's imagine you want how do you make staking attractive to people people for for Sten to be attractive they need to be transaction fees like I mean you've seen how much people have been boosting Sol flips eum in fees and whatever it is like that's a sign like in a sense of you still need people doing things because if if staking is not attractive but people with draw

their stake and like economic security goes down at least people are not sticking so much because not so attractive and stuff so those are some of like the what I feel can be like the the the negative effect of like going full trle on this idea of like pushing elos um pushing El and like saying oh nothing should happen on L1 I feel like we should recognize that like there are good reasons why ethereum was quote unquote prioritized as this world competition platform initially and like we should still preserve some of that and yeah that's just I feel like i' also like talked about this and I think the good part of the central is like institions can come in they can do like their qyc chain or their rwe chain or whatever they want to

do like they can just on an app chain which is good I just don't think it's mutually exclusive think that we need to like constrain the L1 for like L2 to flourish and the truth is something like what um V said about fast block times it's to make if I recall correctly to like make base rollups more viable so like there certain things that you need so standing changes that come to the L1 make l2s better so pias for example makes Els better um yeah different so inclusion list for example make el better those kind of like the changes that are coming that if they if they on ethereum they don't hurt rollups in a sense so yeah yeah I I like that I like that take and I think like just to adapt like the

the like Outlook that I had a little bit where maybe it's not totally that like we push everyone off L1 it's just rollup settlement on L1 like maybe instead we we do have like base rollups that becomes a lot more prevalent and then you know if you want to use a rollup use the rollup right but if you want to use like a cross rollup transaction you want to do some like more complicated Financial uh transaction where you have like a cross domain type of Arbitrage whenever you're using interoperability you go directly to the L1 and so it's not just like only using rollups and that's it but it's like using ethereum as the best

interoperability solution because everyone uses like based sequencing or all the rollups use base sequencing and so we go to the L1 for any kind of like cross rollup transactions and then if we just want one rollup for one use casee we use the rollup coent is solving the longterm data availability problem where a lot of the data availability providers today in the modular space when you post data to them they actually only hold that data for about 12 to 16 days and then it's basically they can go into archive note or often times it's just kind of put away into the abyss and what coent trying to do is build this long-term data availability solution which can plug into some of these

modular data availability providers and provide this longer term Perpetual data solution so what we try to think of this as is when you post transaction data onto Celestial or Veil or any of these modate da Solutions or even ethereum coala is able to provide a longterm data storage and data availability platform for that data after the time period blockchains are Billboards not databases and you know we need these providers in the space to be able to kind of hold on to the longterm data that is provided from these providers and these blockchain State this is where coent comes in they just had a nice Rebrand check them out on Twitter as well as the website thank you for being here hope

you enjoy the rest of the show Welcome Aboard on our journey into to the singularity this is the endgame road map for fra and fraxel the new L2 out of the fra ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling fractal is a modular L2 blockchain built by fra with modular and fractal scaling in mind fractal scaling is based on the mandal BR set of fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the frax ecosystem is made of some of the top

builders in the space and has stemmed from its OG days of the frax stable coin it is now in the LST space the LRT space and this frax L2 joins the existing Suite of fra products including fra Swap and frax lend you can see frax fairy the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into the fra main net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fraxel ecosystem join today to get the best out of fra you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity

yes yes that that's like that's like really good I think maybe maybe in the future we have like like ZK VM and maybe like multiple zkm rollups in general like like it makes interrupt way um easier and stuff that's like kind like that vision of the future I like to paint because this is a vision of future that like possible because at least I know like the um privacy and Skilling expression te is still working on trying like snacky the AVM so these are like good things coming down the road like if we and again this like something I usually say like we need to like have this sense of urgency like e be much much better than it is like I don't think us resting on our lawers and say well e one in is like really good like there's like bigger bigger race down the

line and I I feel like we should definitely try to compete and so say yeah I mean there's tons of things coming down the line which is good because I'm with you like I don't think we should just aify and that's it you know something better would come along and then beat ethereum and ethereum would go away at some point we have toy that's like that's like true because we don't like keep changing and keep changing things but just don't feel like it needs to happen now for example that's like not really I mean we canot say when it's going to happen but like just saying it needs to happen because well inss are not coming or we need to like Bitcoin and Bitcoin doesn't want to be Bitcoin anymore so that's it like look at look at Bitcoin right like even bitcoin's not

aify like it was for a while right but then I think it's very reactionary like these protocols you know they get good for a while people like them and then everything's fine but then something comes along starts to compete and then you have to react and you have to get better and adapt otherwise you die you know and so I think for survival purposes these Protocols are going to have to adapt Sometimes some of them adapt on their own right and they just continue to innovate some of them are more reactionary like Bitcoin you know op cat is coming sometime soon but like ultimately I think nothing can aify and survive forever like maybe you can aify tempor rarily but you have to continue to innovate in order to stay relevant e ETF was like a very pivotal moment for like

B because now it was like well no ever get an ETF like we got an ETF and they're like oh maybe BTC now needs to compete so I think maybe getting a Sol ETF is probably going to ethereum boy yeah I mean the salana ethereum relationship is similar to the ethereum Bitcoin one in a sense but I also just feel like this is like to this is all the ethereum conversation in the last like two months is such a bottom bottom signal eth BTC top signal Soul eth ETS coming I don't know what's going on in ethereum land but like I If we don't get a giga Cent here we're gonna blow each other's heads off by the end of the year if something doesn't CH calling for the

bottom on eth bitcoin no I don't know it's impossible to call however uh the sentiment just seems like ethereum Community is infighting sana's freaking shooting sh shots bitcoin's having fun with ETF and I just feel like that's the problem with the positioning it's like the risk to reward of Bitcoin is so much better from a long-term investors's perspective in my opinion if you don't pay attention to like the whole proof of work problem which I think is like a bigger problem of itself but like I don't know like you know Black Rock doesn't care necessarily I mean they do but uh the proof of stake situation is just a big social coordination game anyway so like then if examp like that

out to salana salana is just a better risk adjusted bet for like higher upside more beta outperformance of eth so you've got like these two giants where you can do less risk or more risk then e just kind of in the middle and like who wants to buy I feel like that that's like we need start like shiing L2 in a very coordinated way because again like what you said speak what you said I had a talk at mod last Summit around this like e l2s as an ex as an as extensions of ethereum um it's not just because of like alignment or whatever it is but like there's an actual social contract and like this meta idea that ethereum is not dead but it's living through it rollups and I feel like we need to sort of like

emphasize that relationship so for example when someone says well eum is dead because of IAS pH you can just say well use a roll up and we also like take some things like L2 decentralization seriously so like l2's ass of ethereum is actually true in practice that's like something I also want want to do going forward this sense of having like that's when I had this floa like United CH of ethereum but like this sense of ethereum is not just ethereum the one layer one chain anymore it's now ethereum the layer one chain like this Bing L2 ecosystem for example like eclipse is an XVM is an XVM roll up on there's like Fu Labs doing exos Mega there's um all of this projects which is kind of good like

I'm all for this but like yeah let's go talk to each of these rollup teams that are build building walled Gardens in their own clusters with their own incentive uh mechanisms and they don't want to interoperate on the shame shared sequencer and they don't want to Shar users in liquidity so like I thought shared sequencers was GNA like and like some sort of chain abstraction idea was GNA like make the entrance into ethereum rollup ecosystems like I could enter on arbitrum and end up being on blast optimism ZK sync all these other ones without really caring or like necessarily like wanting to care but it seems like there's still an incentive problem to get all of these rollup clusters and their respective stacks of

uh l3s and l2s to all want to basically what it's coming down to is share sequencer revenues and share me and like we got to figure out how we can do that and then like that I think combined with this improved ux on some of these chain abstraction as far as cross chain and interoperability goes like I think those are two big lifts for us that I think will really help to make ethereum not feel like L1 plus fragmented l2s but ethereum L1 and ethereum like scale layer or like just allinone kind of this is something um actually discussed it was like eum it should not feel like you're using like different chain you

feel like you're using one ethereum verus it said it's like Etc so I think there's like very and I've talked about like incentive issues with ro off trying to like build their own to Empires I think it's something to talk about I mean this like where I talk about like coition issues because in eum land there's a sense of don't try to coordinate don't centralize don't I'm like coordination the reason we we usually talk about like Moc slay mooc is when we don't coordinate everyone s of like optimizes their own specific part of the pie and doesn't try to qu the pie and like in the end of at the end of the day they all going to like die because we don't stick together and survive I don't there's this meme of like H together strong it's it's really like

you're really stronger together than like than a part so that's something I'm also that's that's why I'm really like like build out the collective I feel like we need like this neutral ground zero for like everyone to I mean one of the things we can Sol is el2 should not like be fighting over the same small pool of solid developers like a bon developers out there that don't by eum we should be looking to like get into the ecosystem first before trying to like hold on to like this small um small small small part of the p in general so I think things like kick framework um from Frontier research I think that's good because right now they're try to like talk to like these different interal people okay what are you

building what are you building how do you make sure this is like very interoperable so I think vital set L of like there's just like work to do but because like it's the cake framework needs some work as well but by according to the chain of distraction leaders but we can that's a whole another podcast yeah I mean so I mean like it's it's it's it's the Lord's walk because like no one's going like step on like connect people I'm really hoping like Collective can like startop somewhere so yeah yeah I mean honestly also one last thing here is I'm just I'm ready for the the like I appreciate the community cynicism around where we've gotten so far and like oh we need to do this and this isn't great but like also it's a little bit tiresome

like I don't know if it's just like number go up is what we need or like just like some apps to like come online or some better coordination or like a combination of all of them but uh we needs the amount of cynicism in this in this yeah man it's we need like like fun I think this was something like I think Ryan Berman's was like very like top said it was like on like people try things like things that don't seem to work like deeping for example things that don't seem to work because it's like an actual funnel for you funding these things in ethereum we fund a lot of infra because and Builders don't get like so because the funding is just there for infra and not for apps people buy inra not enough apps so like this is are like solvable problems for us we

just start like coordinat around like funding apps and I think there like a lot of work to do but like it's it's it's a mixture of difference and and the TR is for me it's not just tied to price action it's just tied to long-term Prospect I want e to have more users more is these are just things like this is just we are building tech for people let people use it and build on it the roll up baby thank you for coming on Emanuel great time great conversation cheers mate much love