How Real People Are Really Living On Crypto In Real Life

Transcript

[music] [music] >> Hello people. Hello again. So, now we're going to understand with Violet how real people real are really living on crypto in real life. Very important, especially now also discreet and private way. So, Violet Rollergirl, she has a very interesting background that include technical expertise, infra automation, cyber security, privacy preserving cryptocurrencies just Zcash, nightlife event organization, [snorts] sexual health education. Her favorite line is your favorite hooker's favorite

hacker. Please welcome Violet on stage. She's the stage is yours. >> Nico, did I hold up the sign? Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. You know, this is a a massively large room and so many of you are back there and I would love to actually get like more of a discussion going than just like a lecture. I don't really like just talking without some kind of discussion. So, I hopefully you all are going to speak up and ask me some questions and we're going to get to this in like a really sort of like impactful way. I would love to know what it is that you all want out of this before you leave, but there's too many of you to ask. So, if you want to come up a little bit and just like join each other sort of around. That would be lovely. Otherwise,

you might have to yell at me and I only like that in bed. Okay? So, yeah, so my name is Violet. I want to talk about how this really happens. A lot of the conversation around crypto is always around number go up, around investing, around making sure ROI is there and all this stuff. A lot of technical discussion and that's all really great, but no one outside this conference gives a [ __ ] about that, honestly. I'm sorry to tell you. They all hate crypto. They don't want anything to do with it. The second you say crypto, they're not going to listen to you and they're going to think it's a scam. So, the question is how do you actually get people using crypto in reality? For things like groceries, for things like rent, for things like bills, right? For things that are like splitting a bill at dinner, splitting a

check, right? How do you actually get people to use it for real? As a real currency, cuz I don't know how many of us forgot, but cryptocurrency is actually a currency. We're supposed to use it as exchange. Yes, I see I see that in the back room, right? Come on forward. Come on into this. Uh you can leave. That's okay. Usually when people leave early, I just make more money. So, come on up and leave whenever you want. No pressure at all. So, so So, that's what we want to talk about. And we want to talk about it without using a bank, without using any kind of tradfi connections if we can. We want to use it in a private way as we can to retain and to preserve the same kind of privacy that we had with physical cash.

And so, basically taking physical cash and electronicizing it, right? Making it digital, digital cash, is probably the single biggest adoption vector vector that you can possibly have with cryptocurrency. 99% of the world does not care about any promises you make about their tomorrow because they only care about things that you can promise them today. They need to do stuff today with this. And that's because they've got [ __ ] they got to pay for yesterday. Okay? So, when you talk about promises of getting rich quick and stuff, they're all trying to solve problems that they had yesterday. You have to answer that problem for them. And for that, they need money to spend today, privately and safely, that they can use anywhere and everywhere, right? Instead of promising tomorrow's riches. They don't care. And not only

they don't care, you sound like a scam. So, that's what I want to talk about. That's what this entire workshop is going to be. Some of you can follow along if you'd like, but you don't have to. In about two apps and hopefully 15 minutes, I can completely free you from the banking system, the traditional banking system, so that you don't need a bank account. And that's what we're going to get get to. So, why? Oh, yeah, you have a question about this? What's my incentive for being de-banked? Well, I'm a hooker, so they don't like me having bank accounts. Yeah, right. Thank you. Again. It's what?

I can't hear you. Wait, wait. [ __ ] [ __ ] banks. He said [ __ ] banks. I love that we have a [ __ ] banks crowd in here. That's beautiful. Yeah, come on. Let's talk about this. >> Yeah, just to add my answer, so I've been living without banks almost 7 years. >> 7 years? >> Yeah, yeah. And get my salary in crypto and just like I do hate banks. And I think you know, I only use free software. >> [snorts] >> I have this like vegan only fossil only diet. So I only eat I mean I only use free software. And when I want to go to a bank, they want me to install proprietary apps to use my own money. And they want me to sign like this amount of ridiculous papers about how they're going to spy on me. So like why

would I do that when I can just generate the key? >> Yeah, you can math. It's so beautiful. >> And you can get a bank account. >> Thank you so much. >> Yeah, of course. That's a nice thing, right? Like you can even get a bank account and you understand that you're paying not just with your money, but also with your life. I've already paid with my life and they don't want me to have money as a result. So [ __ ] that and let's talk about how to get out of it, yeah? All right. So uh yeah, why crypto, right? Immunity from debanking. Debanking is the single largest issue facing most people in my industry, the adult industries. Porn, right? For example, it's a $200 billion industry and 63% of people in [snorts] the adult industries cannot get bank accounts. 63% according to the Free Speech Coalition

2023 survey uh have experienced some form of financial discrimination. 40% of those have experienced debanking with financial seizure. That means they take your money. Right? So you show your tits on camera, you get paid for that, you put that into a bank account, they take the money. That's 40% of adult workers. That is a ma- of a $200 billion industry. That is massive. And you know what they don't want to hear you talk about? Crypto or investing. Okay? So that's number one. Immunity from chargebacks. Right? When I get paid for something and then I get a charge Do you know what a chargeback is? A clawback when someone get paid for something and then the customer says, "Actually, I didn't really want to do that." Or actually like that was a scam.

Or actually they and they take it back from you. The bank reverses the transaction. That's a chargeback. You probably don't experience this as much, but for example, escorts deal with this all the time. Where what happens is a client, right, pays for services. The services are rendered. Services, time, is rendered, right? And then the client says, "Ooh, maybe I shouldn't put that on a bank statement." Right? Maybe I have a change of heart. Maybe my found out. So, I don't want that to be seen. That was a mistake, baby. I didn't mean to. I'm so sorry, my love, right? Let's charge back on it. And now, who's out the $700, $800, $1,000, or whatever, right? That they need for rent. Us.

Immunity from chargebacks is a very, very, very big deal, and you get that with self-custodial uh cryptocurrency wallet apps, right? You don't get that from something like a Cash App or a Peanut or Coinbase, but you do get it with like a self-custodial, right? Non-custodial wallet apps. So, that's really important. Immunity from chargebacks. Getting paid privately. Like I said, some people want to get paid and don't want to revealing, right? What they're getting paid for. Some people don't want to be seen paying for certain things. Again, cryptocurrency with privacy, specifically, makes that possible. Only cryptocurrency with privacy makes that possible because it's a peer-to-peer system and not going through an intermediary.

Uh, reduce transaction fees for especially for large sums. I don't think we have to explain that too much, right? But, there you go. I've seen some incredibly large sums of money being transferred. The transaction fees are minuscule. And the adult industry, again, if you have an OnlyFans, if you have some kind of like, you know, content sales network, um you're paying anywhere from 20 to 40% of every sale, not including taxes on the sale. So, I make a video, I sell it for $100, I get 80 from the platform, I then pay taxes on top of that. That's incredibly insane from any other market perspective. You can tell people, right?

In the adult industry that you're reducing transaction fees by over 15, 20, 30, sometimes 40%, and all of a sudden, you're telling them every sale they make, they're making almost one and a half. That is a much bigger driver for adoption than invest in this, maybe you'll get some money later in what they think is already a scam. See my point? Cross-app interoperability. Doesn't matter if you have the same app as me. You have Zado, you have Cake Wallet, you have Edge, you have Exodus. I don't care. You have Coinbase, it doesn't matter. It'll all work because a cryptocurrency network is also, right? The payment processor, and multiple different apps work with the same payment processor. This is important because the first reason, debanking. I don't have a Cash App account. I don't have a Coinbase

account. Guess why? Okay, I need something, right? That the other person might not also have. You can send me cryptocurrency from one of these tools without me having the same tool. So, there's no more of this, "Oh, are you on Zelle? Are you on like Wise? Do you use such and such? Do you use WeChat? Do you use this app?" Doesn't matter. Send me USDC to an address, it works out. We've got a question back there. Can we get a microphone over there? >> I get your point about the new apps, but nowadays it's not like which app you have, it's like which chain do you accept?

>> Yeah, so that's a Yeah, the fragmentation is a real issue with that. That's what cross-chain swaps make really easy. I love permissionless DEXes, and we really have to support tools like ThorChain, Maya Protocol, even Near to some extent, even though they are permissioned, to make that much easier. >> Now, what I find though with the cross-chain ecosystem, non-EVM bridging is quite expensive. And so, I actually tried to avoid it at all costs because of the fees. >> Not as expensive as 40% off a sale. That was you know. >> Guys, these guys are we're talking about EEZ, so maybe they're going to solve this issue sounds cross-border. Yeah. EEZ, Ethereum Economic Zone from Nozis people. Yeah.

>> Yeah, no, you're not wrong. You're not wrong at all. It's expensive, certainly more expensive, right? On a on a native transaction, which is like, you know, on a on a in-chain like a shielded Zcash shielded Zcash transaction is minuscule, thousands of cents to the dollar. Again, I've seen some very large transactions be very low, but that has to be on the native chain first. So, typically, when you're doing this operationally for real, right, you know, you want a cross-chain situation to get to some sort of privacy area where you can actually just do this together. That's one of the reasons reasons it's so important to get both vendors and uh sellers, right, merchants and people selling and people buying, consumers, onto the same chain. And that's actually one of the reasons why I think that like, while a bunch of competition is healthy, too much fragmentation doesn't

actually help. Regardless, no one's really focusing on adoption to the degree that I am. And I think that that's actually one of the security issues properties to get not only like that issue taken care of, but a ton of other things. Cuz when we don't have mass adoption, we leave ourselves open to capture from a whole sort of different areas. You have another question, is it about this? Yeah, go for it. No, no, no. I If If it's If it's too slow, I'll Don't worry. Trust me, I know how to pace it. >> Yeah. I guess I just have a question around the the bridging stuff. So, do you do you use any specific platforms where you can track the the rise and fall of fees across different blockchains?

>> Uh there is a lot of monitoring possibilities. Um and uh for example, I'm very familiar with the Zcash ecosystem primarily because it has what I believe is some of the strongest privacy, which I'll talk about in a little bit. Um and so, there's a tool called Zec stats. Uh and that's an example of like looking at that just within the Zec ecosystem. There's not a ton that I know that is specifically looking at like adoption metrics of this kind. Those are really hard to get. Um I would love to see more of those, and that's a conversation for possibly after this this talk, which I would love to talk to you about. So, yeah. All right. Uh moving moving on just really quickly, we have international availability. That doesn't need too much explanation. You all realize that cross-border situations are a big issue in terms of sanctions. This

can get around that. It also helps with [snorts] humanitarian aid and such and such. Okay. So, how do I know all this, right? And why do I get there? It's because I used to do infrastructure automation and cybersecurity. Uh I was working at a blockchain startup for a little while. I worked for big banks before. I've done global data center automations for Fortune 500s back in the day. Um but I left them because I really hated those jobs and really liked having sex and figured that like this is going to be a lot more fun. So, I decided to switch careers, if you will, entered the porn industry, and the adult industry. Um even though I knew Bitcoin was available in 2009, I thought it was a dumb idea because no one was going to [ __ ] want to use money that everyone could see you using because look at me.

It's not safe for someone like me to do that. Looking at the room, it's probably safer for a lot of you, not all of you, but a lot of you. At least you think it is, right? Until it's not. And so, I'm kind of your canary in the coal mine. I'm the future. I'm representing the 99% of the world that you haven't yet on board that haven't you haven't talked to. You might not even know exist and who don't want anything to do with you. I'm your bridge. So, I ignored crypto until 2024, right? Um and that was when shielded swaps became in the what's now the Zola app, which was formerly called Zcash. Um, which was a self-custodial wallet app built by the Electronic Coin Company, uh, now again the Zola app, and they just like completely blew everyone else out of the water in terms of UX and

usability, and that really helped adoption for my circles because again the context in which I'm like using these products are, you know, I'm naked in a room with a man and he's touching me and I got to get I got to get him to press the right buttons on the phone, right? In like 30 seconds or less. Uh, while his hands on his phone and in what in one hand is on his phone and the other hand is not on his phone. So, if your product can't do that correctly, it's not going to work for me. Zcash or Zola now is the only tool that actually made that possible in an easy-to-use way and in a way that I can explain to people who again don't want to hear about crypto, and that is the bar.

Okay? So, we're talking about that level of adoption. Here are the things you have to know to be the an expert in cryptocurrency amongst more than anyone else I think that I've ever met about cryptocurrency there are really only a few things. Number one is, right, when you're going to a cryptocurrency conference, ask someone does their service have a custodial or a non-custodial part of it? If their service is custodial, I stop talking to them. Literally, I ask like three questions to get 100% confidence see and I teach these three questions to get 100% confidence sees in the cryptocurrency space. Number one, ask them if they're a custodial or a non-custodial service. If it's custodial, you move on. It doesn't matter because again that's not a wallet app, that's an ATM machine or a teller.

It's another bank account. We don't want it. Uh, number two, is it a transparent or an opaque ledger? Right? Transparent ledger, of course, Bitcoin, Litecoin, you all know this. You're a relatively technical crowd. I'm at Devcon. When I talk about this to people who don't know what a ledger is, right, don't know what a blockchain is, I just say that it's a bank statement published to the world. And they immediately don't want to do it right? So, if it's a transparent versus opaque ledger, if someone is using transparent systems, uh, non non-private, right, non-private not not cannot be made private, then it's not going to be easy to help someone to it unless they don't know that it's not private, which is exactly how Bitcoin blew up in the first [ __ ] place.

Right? It was supposed to be a replacement for cash. Think about what cash is and does. When I hand you a bill, or more importantly, when you hand me a bill under the table, right? No one sees that. That's not a database record getting updated somewhere. But, if you think about the shielded transactions that we have in tools like shielded dash or dash evolution, even Monero to some degree, um what you end up with, right, is the ability to recreate that environment to create that transaction completely privately in a way that no one else, no observer, can um can track. [snorts] So, these are the two questions that I basically tell people to ask. The three things I tell people to do, right? Again, when they're talking to crypto people, non non no coiners. When I tell no coin no coiners how to talk to crypto people, I say

there's three things you got to know. Number one, ignore 99% of what 99% of people tell you about crypto. It's a lie. It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant for you. 99% ignore. 99% of what 99% of people tell you. Number two, ask, is it a custodial or non-custodial system? You got to stick to the non-custodial ones, the self-custodial ones. Number three, is it transparent or opaque? If they say it's transparent, they're not talking about shielded encryption, ignore them. And that literally cuts out 99% of the noise right there. You're now at 99 percentile crypto experts, all of you in this room. Congratulations. The wallet apps that we use, right? Much like you need a web browser to browse the web, you need a wallet app to interact with cryptocurrency. These used to be called user agents back in the day. They weren't web browsers, they

were user agents. And I don't mean agents in the sense that we talk about them like AI now, like agentic stuff. What I'm talking about is age uh user agents as in you in the space of the cyber realm, you in information space. So, a wallet is literally a metaphor. Right? Even the web pages are metaphors. It's not a page when you're browsing the web. It's not a wallet on your phone. We all know this. They know this. They're not dumb. You know, these aren't like not They don't It's not like you have to like somehow teach them something they're not aware of. You're the ones who are not getting it. Right? The wallet is a metaphor. It's actually, I don't know if you realize this, a program on your phone. And a program is not a wallet. They do different things.

So, the wallet, when you talk about a wallet, I I talk about it as a wallet app because not a wallet, a wallet app, because it is an app and they know it's an app. And so, a wallet in physical space and time, right, has limitations, physical limitations. But, it also has physical properties that you want to recreate when you're creating a wallet app. What that first thing that you want to recreate is the feeling that it's not anything more complicated, that it's not tracking you. When you buy a wallet from, say, a vendor at a street corner, for example, right? Um that vendor is not asking you for your national ID, your social security number, your email, your phone number, your home address, right? Your age, your past five employment records, because it's a pouch, a piece of leather that you can put money into.

That's really important because people feel privacy, I feel Sorry, people don't feel privacy, they feel the metaphor that you're talking to them with. Right? If you give them a wallet app and the first thing they're asked for is a username and an email address to sign up with, they don't think of it as a wallet. Now, again, it's a bank account you're signing up for. And that's going to immediately turn off so many people. So, we care about what the wallet app does. We want some nice-to-haves. Tor is amazing to have in a wallet app because it also protects your layer two, sorry, layer three layer three in the OSI model of the internet, not the blockchain layers.

I apologize. Wrong conference. Right? In web 2.0 world, network level surveillance is a big deal. What IP address are you connecting to to the swap API exchanges, to the currency exchanges, etc. When you torify those connections, you help protect privacy. The two wallet apps that I like the most are Zodl and Cake Wallet because it has Tor built in, as an example. I like Shielded Zec because, again, it manages to um compromise all of those uh comprise all of those um properties of privacy that I was talking about in terms of, like, shielded transactions. No one knows who I'm sending money to.

No one knows who I'm sending who I'm um how much I'm sending. No one knows why I'm sending it, right? Uh or getting paid from it. Um and all of those uh on on chain. If you're looking at the chain data, none of that transaction data is shown, which is important because it makes the cash like thing actual cash. Um, and then when you add cord to that, no one knows even that I'm the one using it because I'm going through a tour connection, so they can't see me connecting from my IP address to my light wallet nodes to the validator nodes or whatever other API endpoints that we're talking about.

And um, again, it's self-custodial. And it doesn't ask me for an email address or or a username or something, so it all feels like an actual wallet. So, that's really important. Both Zodl and Cake Wallet do that. Um, in Zodl's case, you can see that it looks like this to receive. And if you don't already have Zodl, go ahead and try it out. This is the workshop portion if you want. If you haven't yet downloaded Zodl, go to z o d l .com z o d l and it's going to offer you to download from an app store. You can go ahead and do it. I promise you that it will take longer to download this app than to learn how to use it and set it up. And I know one of the other pieces of adoption that's in the problem, especially in crypto spaces, is that the more someone

knows about crypto, the less they want to add a new wallet to their phone. Let me just let me let me say that again. The more someone knows about crypto, the more crypto like proficient they are, the less likely they are, in my experience, to add a new wallet to their phone. And the reason for that is because a wallet onboarding experience is [ __ ] Right? Most wallets out there force you to do all the things that I told you not to do, which immediately tells you that they don't understand the wallet metaphor at all. And it's a [ __ ] hassle to like write down a seed phrase the minute you open a phone a wallet app for the first time. So, try this out. If you're not already getting it, if you're not already like downloading it, download Zodl, z o d l

.com. Give it a shot. Try it out. I won't even going to like walk you through the rest of the setup. You're on your own you're on your own, but I know you can do it because you're smart technical people and this will be easy. It'll take you longer to download than set this up. Um, sharing shielded addresses is how you want to get paid in that in Zodl most easily. I'm not going to go through like the actual mechanics of sending and receiving tokens because I think you all know that, but I want to show you that it's uh that this is what it looks like on that screen. Um, and then of course the next problem is how do you get crypto? So, I'm going to pause here for a second and ask how many people are actually downloading Zotero for the first time in

this room. 1 2 3 4 5 6. Oh, now there's hands. Okay, I lost count. That was at least 7 8 10. 11. Fantastic. Okay, try it out. And then like to the neighbor that's not doing it next to you just like you know, show them. Trust me, it'll be fun to do it together. All right. Um, once you've downloaded it, has it actually downloaded? Have you actually managed to get it? Like is it Did it work? Were you able to Yeah, you've got it? I see one person nodding. And it opened up?

Okay, great. So, you What do you see there? You see a screen that says welcome to Zotero? And then what are the options? The two options two buttons to press restore existing and then create new wallet. Which one do you want to press? Probably create. Go ahead and try that. We'll go one step at a time for you. And? It's open and what do you see there? There you go. You're done. You're all set up. You have full access to the Zcash ecosystem in two button presses. Download and create new wallet. I'm actually pushing for them to get rid of that create and restore screen because why is that even there? When you've downloaded a new wallet, right? You have nothing in it by by design.

So, restore should happen somewhere else. So, I would I would love even better when you buy the metaphor to be even more correct is when you install the app, you hit right? Download and install. And then when you open it for the first time, it shows you an empty wallet with $0 in it, right? What's the balance shown on your screen right now? Zero. All right, very predictable. No, actually I don't. That's a great question. The question was do you go through this every time you accept a new client? No, I do not. What I want is to be able to receive in the most private way and the sending the like the sender should not even have to know that they're using cryptocurrency, right? And we'll get to that in a bit.

That's where this comes in. But that's a very good point. I see that you're like looking at it a little bit. No peeking. Um Yeah, one question over there. Yeah, the question's about price volatility. Yeah, yeah, what about the price volatility? That makes sense. We'll get to there. Yeah, we'll absolutely get to there. And I also appreciate I want to say I really appreciate these questions. A lot of people who just came in in late are like, "Oh, there's so many interruptions." No, no, I'm inviting this. Please come up forward, come up ask questions. Let's Let's can do this as a whole discussion. I I like I like the back and forth. It's more fun when more people are involved. Okay. So, uh you have a zero balance there, right?

First thing I want you to notice about this auto screen when you if this is your first time opening it is that you'll get nudged with this little blue blue bar. It'll say, uh "Opt in to tour." Right? So, you if you don't If you see that, it says rev- There's a little blue bar that says review. Hit that hit review that, uh and then you'll get a screen that lets you opt in to turning on tour. Now, in Zotl, uh let's go back to the receive screen so that you can see it. Again, we're talking about tour here over there. Most people don't actually need this, but I like to be very very careful. And also, I'm like I mean, you know, I travel the world teaching cryptocurrency as like an out trans sex worker. So, like I want to use tour. You know what I mean?

Um when you are in Zotl, um this is actually the receive screen. I don't have a picture of the home screen, unfortunately. Um but there's a little ellipse at the top right. Three little like uh uh dots on the top right. Tap that, then tap more at the bottom of the panel. I see you doing it, fantastic. Now, go to advanced settings, which is the center. Uh-huh, and then hit tour protection, which is at the bottom. So, again, from the beginning, it's the three dots at the top right and in Zotl, uh on the home screen, then more at the very bottom, then advanced settings in the middle, then tour protection at the bottom of that menu, and then there's just one option, enable or disable. That's all you get. This is powered by Arti, which was a Zcash Community Grants

Foundation-funded project in 2021, which is a Rust library uh that torifies a single application that you can embed directly into the mobile application itself. So, enabling that with that one button immediately sets and forgets Tor for all outgoing TCP/IP connections to any uh, outside service. From the app, right? From the app, exactly. And that's important because it hides the fact that you're even using Zcash, right? Zcash itself when you're using a shielded to shielded transaction, no one knows who's getting paid, no one knows who's paying, no one knows the amount being paid, and with Tor, no one knows that any one of you is using Zcash to begin with. Like cash.

Uh, well, less and less with Zcash, but also so the question was it marks you as being suspicious for using Tor. Yeah, that's the same argument as like, well, do you want to use text messages or do you want to use Signal, you know? Like sure, yeah, it's a little bit strange, but also it's much less information that you're giving to the world, especially when the information that you're giving, right? Think about the difference. The option is do I show that I'm showing Tor or do I never have a bank account again? Or do I never like, you know, have uh, like, you know, do I have the police after me? Do I have you know, like as in like this is a, you know, potential solicitation or whatever. Whatever it is, right? The amount of information you're giving when you don't use Tor versus when you are using Tor is much,

much bigger. And so yeah, you can weight that, right? As a judgment choice, but most people uh, aren't in most jurisdictions, right? Are not that under risk. And of course, if you are, that's why it's not defaulted. Actually, that that exact issue is exactly why you're not defaulted into Tor. You're asked to prompt, you're asked to opt in. Um so it's a real operational concern, but that's real. Yeah, there's a question over there. I love how interactive this is getting. Y'all have some really good questions. >> Well, um, the uh, I was it's a such a great talk. I was thinking about the uh, establishment of credit card system >> Mhm.

>> uh, in the last century where uh, the phone sex industry actually contributes a lot >> Yes. >> to the uh, to how I how I have now this the the CVV codes and all like the uh, it was the the payments methods. >> Yes. >> Uh, how uh, where one credit card system got like actually established themselves in the system, Yes. They just kicked the fun sacks. >> Yes. >> Industry else like completely. >> Yeah, we are often the vanguard of any single new technology adoption. Like sex workers are are like I said earlier like I'm the future I'm I'm the canary in the coal mine. I'm also your biggest advocate until you decide that you don't need me anymore.

And that happens over and over and over again. Happens with social networks like Twitter, which was a massive like hub of sex worker organizing and networking and also advertising. It happens on journalism like paper paper uh magazines, right? Where uh sex worker advertising advertisements so escort ads, right? Were one of the most uh lucrative sources of income for struggling magazines as they began to get established with circulation. And then of course when they became established, they kicked all those out cuz those were unseemly. Um this is a pattern that we've seen over and over again with every new technology dating all the way back right before we even had electronics.

And we're seeing it again now with cryptocurrency. And so I urge you all to consider the importance of advocating for us as sex workers to be part of your allies. There's a huge cultural divide right now. Again, most people hate you. I don't even mean crypto. Like I mean I don't I don't mean like crypto like other crypto people. I mean we don't we like normal people don't trust or want or think they want right these things. Because it's all of it no so much of this conversation is about number go up. And there's they don't have money to invest in the first place. Um so that's that's a real that's a real cultural barrier to adoption right now.

>> Yeah, yeah. I It's I think I think it's well recognized that all good innovations come from the margins. Uh on the marginal >> Yes. Oops. Uh >> So what do you think like is that like a future vision for Zcash to prevent uh what to like still be side with the marginals and to uh help like >> Are you saying what >> the gloss house the uh the underprivileged workers and uh like for example sex workers. >> Are you asking me what I think Zcash can do to support us? >> Yes. >> Right now we we can talk about that in a little bit because I do want to talk about that but I also want to make sure that I give you some more information about this. The very short answer and we can talk about that more again later, is that there's currently a very big

governance fight happening in the Zcash world, as I'm sure you all who have paid attention to this know. And a big reason that that's a governance fight is because Zcash's price has gone up quite a bit lately. Uh and that means that some of the unique things about the Zcash ecosystem, which funds ecosystem projects, there's literally a protocol level thing inside of the Zcash code base that says, uh it let's call it a protocol defined ecosystem funding stream, and that's money officially, formally designated in ZIP, Zcash Improvement Proposal, ZIP 1015, to go to so-called community projects, development for adoption, and other work.

That is being taken away. Mostly by a group of people who are backed by a bunch of VCs who are kicking away the ladder. But there's a big governance fight right now to help maintain that funding stream and apply that to adoption projects. There's another ZIP called the ZAP, the Zcash Adoption Pool, and that's what I would support. Um which we can talk about later, as well. Um but yes, I appreciate the cultural like um appreciation for us there. That's very true. It I actually really boils my blood a little bit that we're like constantly the tip of the spear that then gets sort of discarded when we no longer need it after the fight. Um anyway, uh yeah, there was a question there.

How am I doing on time, by the way? Great, half an hour is great. >> Sorry. Uh but where do exactly can uh can I know like how to spend like rent groceries? >> that's coming to the off-ramping, guys. >> Okay, I I was going to ask this live. >> Yeah, let's go forward so that we keep going through this, but I I I like I want to make sure that you've got the full like experience here. The point is is the next step is getting paid, right? You have a wallet app now, right, Zodl. Uh and what this allows you to do is access Zcash. It doesn't necessarily allow you to access a bank account. Um we'll get to how we do that in a bit.

Um but you can send and receive tokens, this is probably pretty simple to understand for most of you in the room. You have four bars, right, four buttons on the toolbar, receive at the top left all the way through to send, and then there's pay, and then there's swap. Pay is a little a little the weird one because receive and send you probably get, right? You probably understand that. So, you have Zotl, you've torified it. You can now receive, send, right? And then what's pay? So, if you have Zotl, go ahead and hit pay, especially for the first time, hit the pay button. Again, I don't know if I have that on any of these slides. No, I don't. Oh, I do. Actually, let's talk about that. Um so we That's swapping into I want cross pay.

Let's do this. Go this way. The pay button will open this screen here. Cross pay. I'm not going to go in order of my slides because we don't need to go in a single order. Sometimes you do things out of order and that's more fun. >> [laughter] >> The people who are laughing take my number. Um all right, so All right, so when you hit pay, you get this screen here. Uh and it shows you how much Zec you have. But it also has this send to. And notice that send to, right? is send it's who do you want to pay, but also who do you want to pay in a different currency?

In other words, there we go. In other words, if I have Zcash, but a vendor only accepts Bitcoin, which is actually a very common case, right? On the world if with if any like e-commerce sellers typically started by accepting Bitcoin uh when they're doing cryptocurrency. Now, there's others. BTC PayServer will have a bunch of different plugins. A lot of more people are accepting USDC and other stuff. But go ahead and open the Zotl's pay screen, the cross pay screen, hit the send to button, and what you'll see is that there's a list of tokens that you can immediately swap into. And so, your experience of this swap is actually just a payment, which is a pretty cool slick thing. In other words, you can think of Zotl as your crypto-native

uh debit card for the world. In the same way that you might think about, for example, your Visa or your MasterCard, right? In the fiat world as being able to pay in any currency. You got out of the airport, you go to a new country, you still have a Visa card, you might have dollars in your bank account, but you're paying in pesos or you're paying in rupees or you're paying, right? With whatever local currency they are, euros, francs whatever. That's kind of what this pay button does for Zotl when you're paying. There's a question over there. >> Uh so my general experience with with this type of UX is that there is a specific number on the other side that you need to pay.

And you've got your Zcash and then it estimates some number for you and that estimate is never the the right number. And so you end up mostly overpaying, right? >> Which is why Crosspay is so cool because you enter a number and you are guaranteed mathematically guaranteed to have the specific number you entered be the number that the seller who you're buying from, right, receives. And any overdue pay, which you are paying a little bit over, you will end up being asked for a slippage tolerance. And that slippage tolerance is defaulting to 2%. It's usually enough to cover both the slippage tolerance but the slippage and price between the two tokens that you're transacting between, swapping between.

And Zotero will calculate the transaction fees on either side of the exchange for you. And so you receive as a refund everything that you've overpaid without having to do any math at all. Which is beautiful. Right? It feels like a payment. Now the swap that you're talking about, right, as the payment, that's actually one of the ways you can get crypto and it's actually the way that I get crypto from people who don't know how anything about crypto. For [snorts] me, because I don't have a bank account, right, and I don't necessarily have some sort of fiat deposit address of any kind, the easiest way for me to onboard into crypto and for most sex workers is simply to get paid in crypto.

A lot more people are getting paid in crypto in some way, whether that be audited or not for like a salary or something, but the point is whereas and also for those people, right, when you're getting paid in crypto, you're immediately part of the like crypto terrain, if you will. You can almost think of it as like there are three big like One is like we'll call it a fascist country where everything is surveilled and and controlled and we call that fiat and the banks, right? And then we have cuz they see everything. I don't know if you know about this also, but in America we have this thing called FinCEN, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, which feeds data on trans financial financial transactions, electronic financial transactions, over 25,000 locals, federal, state agencies. And that data is being used for for example warrantless stops on traffic violations and such. They're

getting fed to ice and immigrations and customs and border control uh like agencies of various different kinds. It's I don't know if you know the term parallel construction, but they basically use your financial data to create a suspicion of what you've done wrong in order to arrest you later. This is also been going around for like 25 years. It's completely warrantless, totally legal, completely It's probably the biggest warrantless wiretapping like system in the planet today. There's not a single electronic transaction that an American has that's not seen by this agency. It's insane that this is legal. Anyway, so the easiest way to get paid, right, is to get paid in crypto for us and hopefully for a lot of others. And so if I have a crypto using customer, I can simply accept any cryptocurrency

that they have by going to the swap screen on Zelle and asking for a swap deposit. So if you can click in and swap instead of in pay, which is the furthest right corner the furthest right [snorts] button there, you'll see a very similar screen to the cross pay screen, but instead of showing me where I'm paying to, it says from, right, where I'm what currency I'm getting from. And so I ask for a certain amount of money, I hit a a certain in a certain amount of currency on a certain chain, which is the fragmentation issue. I like to explain these chains as payment processors. So for example, right, Polygon versus Arbitrum versus Base, that's Visa versus Discover versus MasterCard. When you go to a vendor and you pay, right, at a cafe for something in the in the normal normie no-coiner world, you're paying with a currency and

on a particular payment network, right? You're paying with for example, US dollars or Indian rupees or some token and you're paying with a particular processor. You're paying with Visa, you're paying with MasterCard. If you go to a store and you say, "Oh, I've got $100, do you accept Discover?" and they say, "No, we only accept Visa." that or MasterCard, right, then you can't pay because the payment processor hasn't matched. So that's what's the chain fragmentation analogy is for nor for normies, right? And so I just tell people, oh, the a lot of times I'm asked, "I don't know what these names are. Polygon, like you know, it these these what is that what even is that? To a no-coiner. And I say, "Well, what do you think MasterCard was before MasterCard? Also, what?" Can you remember before before we had credit

cards? People were like, "What do you mean you want to pay with Visa? I have dollars." You see what I'm saying? Same analogy. So, you're either gifted or earned some cryptocurrency. Easiest way to get it, you can swap into shielded ZEC, for example, with a swap deposit. If you already have crypto, you can just send your own. If someone else is sending you crypto as a payment, you can turn a swap into ZEC uh uh into a payment from their perspective, kind of like reverse cross-pay, right? And then, of course, if you have existing fiat money from a bank account, you can onboard it to an exchange like uh via Coinbase or whatever, if you are lucky enough to remain banked.

Those are your three ways, right? [snorts] Moving from fiat, which is that statist nation, right? To any crypto at all is a move towards sovereignty, because you leave the fiat surveilled world, and at least you go into the payment network-free world, right? Of the cryptocurrency chains that is decentralized. So, that's an increase in sovereignty. And then, once you go from Yeah, I'll answer your question in a second. But then, once you go from The next step is once you have a crypto, right? And usually that's a transparent cryptocurrency. Bitcoin is in most of the ones that people who are no-coiners like actually understand though, typically get Bitcoin first. When they hear crypto, they think Bitcoin.

So, I just tell them get any crypto. It doesn't really matter what crypto you get, because as long as you move from fiat to crypto, you're going in the right direction, right? Maybe they'll call that, I don't know, some other like, you know, across the border you made a border escape, basically. You've gotten through. And then, finally, you need you need to get to a an opaque ledger system, right? A shielded coin, which is going to be something like Zcash, Dash, Monero, etc., right? Something that actually protects your privacy, and that's actually the free land, right? Where you can actually, you know, finally be free at last. So, that's sort of the move towards sovereignty. You had a question, too. I wanted to answer.

>> Yeah, thanks. So, the methods that is used to accept this swap deposits from a different currency, do you know how they affect the risk score of your wallet? Let's say I have a >> There's no such thing as a risk score of a self-custody Well, there there is when you later on interact with anybody else. Let's say okay, let's say I'm getting paid by a company >> Uh-huh. >> that cares about like the health of their wallet. >> Yeah. >> I receive a payment and I want to pay somebody else. >> Yeah. >> So I deposit my USDC, they're converted to ZEC. I don't care what happens later on.

>> Uh-huh. >> How badly does this affect my wallet if I say if I care about it? >> Well, okay. So, um that I'll be very honest with you. I have no good way to answer that because my risk score is just very high regardless of what I do. >> [laughter] >> Um however, what I would say is that remember that you can minimize the amount of interaction that you're seen having with tools like this. And that is the goal, right? So, if you are getting paid from the some legitimate source that the I mean legitimate is also a loaded term, but like some legal source or some sort of like unscutinized source, even if it's not legal actually. Maybe you unscutinized is what I really want.

>> It's a good word. >> Some unscutinized source, then, right? Um you are uh trying to most of you most of us are ants, too. Like we're not actually big deals, right? So, most people um to most agencies. I mean like I have it on very good authority that like no one in government, at least in the US, gives a [ __ ] about escorts. Like also, if they did and they like launched investigations, talk about the conflict of interest happening there. You know what I mean? So, like mm that's not really going to be uh as too much of a concern. They don't like you you you don't want the book thrown at you for sure, but you don't um you're not generally under as much risk as most people think. And when you have an immediate hop into something like shielded ZEC, all you have, right? is uh

a transaction that goes to Near or some other DEXs and that's the only like data point that they have. So, I don't know exactly, honestly, how much that would affect the the sender side, but you also have like never revealed the fact that you are the one being paid. That you are it's not necessarily clear, right? From the observer on the transparent chain side that you're sending money to yourself. That could be a payment, that could be a gift, that could be, right, an investment. Uh it's [snorts] up to you to make the story about what that really is. And I would never obviously advocate doing anything that would make your government angry, obviously. However, you're only giving them the information that they can see, right?

>> All right. So, like just to sum it up and stop this. >> Yeah. >> Compared to let's say so for example, if I want to use Tornado Cash for super legitimate reasons, like just want to be more private on the Ethereum network, let's say. This is still like a very big red flag for anybody interacting with me. So, another person might have problems on Coinbase, let's say, because they sent me money and I send it to Tornado Cash. So, if I get you right, you're saying you're not exactly sure how how bad it is with with these swaps, but it should be I suppose it should be better than Tornado >> So, this is actually one of the arguments for adoption being up security measure, right? If everyone is doing this, then Have you ever seen The Incredibles, the Disney movie, The

Incredibles? The villain in The Incredibles says like once Yeah, you have? Syndrome, yeah. Right, if everybody's special, nobody is. Right? Aside from the fact that Tornado Cash is a mixer, and mixing, as we know, has lack of privacy, like it's you know, it's it's not a good private mechanism. Shielded Zcash is not a mixer. Uh and so it's much safer, and it's also just more liquid in a lot of ways, um because so many more people currently accept it, right? Zcash is not a currency for sex workers. It's not a currency, you know, for a particular application. It's not even seen as a currency for a particular application in the way Monero is. Monero is also not a currency for drug markets.

But I'm sure whenever someone says Monero to you, you currently think about drug markets. And that's because the culture in Monero flaunted their illegality. It was a point of pride that that's what they were using. You know, all criminals use Monero, they say. And I'm like, well, all bad criminals do, because you all know you're criminals. Right? So, you don't want currency to be application specific, because that centralizes or concentrates, right, the stakeholders of the currency, which creates risks for political attack. Right? And so, widespread adoption across many different, even misaligned stakeholders, is super important for a currency to become adopted and therefore is a security property of the network.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So, you asked about the swaps. The easiest and best way I think to swap into shielded to get, you know, some cryptocurrency into shielded Zcash is, in fact, um getting a swap deposit. And I call it a swap deposit because it just means like a swap from a different currency as a deposit to your Zcash. You're going to swap withdraw, right, from the other perspective. When we talk about these these different um like techniques, think about all the words that we're using. Um nobody except crypto people even know what a swap is, actually. Uh and so, the way I talk about it is reminding them that these are all simply words that have like uh relative uh perspectives. A swap is simply, right, a movement of currency

from A to B that crosses a particular currency. So, if you get off a plane from Canada or Australia or wherever and you go to like Europe and you're like going to France, you want to go to Paris, see the Eiffel Tower, you go to the airport and you exchange, right, your dollars or whatever to francs or euros, that's a swap. That's a currency exchange right? In one case, right, if if if it's if it's if you're the one with the dollars and you end up with the francs, that's a swap from you to you. And therefore, swap is a good word. From the perspective of your American bank account, it's a withdrawal. From the perspective of your cash balance cash on hand account in Europe, it's a deposit.

So, it's just directionality, right? When we talk about moving money, any any movement of anything that we do with cryptocurrency is really just moved move some amount from A to B. And so, where you start like talking about it from, who who is A, right, the actor we're talking about, uh it can be just you to you. It can be, right, a payment is a movement of money from person A to person B, to two actors. And it moves in in a direction, right? And that's all these words are. So, a swap deposit is simply a movement of money that deposits to one place and is withdrawn from another. You have a question too?

>> So, uh yeah, we're talking about mass adoption, right? So, um here. I I assume that um if you have a non-custodial and um opaque ledger that uh you know, your government can't tell what nation you belong to and therefore whether they need to tax that transfer, right? So, how do you pay taxes? >> Yeah. Um Zcash does have a solution to this and it's one of the reasons why it's much more regulatory-friendly. It's called selective disclosure. And in your Zcash wallet, if you want to take a peek at it right now, you can go again to the like little uh ellipse at the top right, or the more button at the bottom, hit advanced settings in the middle, and then go to export viewing key. And that'll show you two options. It'll show

you an uh an option to export what we call an IVK, an incoming viewing key, and it'll show you a option to export what's called a full viewing key, unified IVK unified incoming viewing key, unified full viewing key. And these are uh basically additional wallet addresses that you can give to an auditor, that you can give to an accountant, that you can give to a payment processor like Cypherpay ciphperpay.app to enable various different kinds of services to interact with your wallet at different levels of privilege. It's pretty neat, and not a lot of people know about it, which is unfortunate. Uh and most of the like concern around the regulations for like Zcash most most regulators and centralized exchanges say, "Well, we can't support Zcash because it's

shielded, and therefore it's going to be risky." That's not actually true technically. We have solutions for that in the technology side of it, but that's the perception. And that's actually good for mass adoption. We want most people to think that Zcash is completely private and shielded because it is, unless you make it not so. You need to be able to make it not so, because that actually also fits with their life. Nobody is completely anonymous and private in every part of their lives. That's not how social interactions work. Privacy allows you a space to explore privately, to make connections, to actually be uh in like uh an intimate scenario, right? Without being targeted for it, without being uh afraid of repercussions that might happen later.

But, eventually you want to selectively disclose yourself to that person you are being private with to build trust. And more importantly, especially in like my scenario when we're talking about intimate human relationships, think about the fact that like weddings are public displays of commitment and affection. You might create a relationship in private, but you celebrate and cement that relationship in public. This is important as a duality to understand to adopt cryptocurrency more broadly, because it enables exactly this kind of thing, where you're able to, for example, give an accountant your IVK, your incoming viewing key, so that they can see your transactions, right? But, only they can see your transactions, and they have no ability to spend your money.

Right? So, that's what I would say. Like, there are solutions to that in in in that respect. So, you can pay taxes. Um again, it there's that's a that's I'm not a tax expert nor a financial advisor. Um mostly my answer to taxes are like, yeah, that's a thing. >> Um just follow-up question is that um like uh So, I think it's a a generally good design to have, you know, this selective disclosure where you have um you know, kind of give people the option to you know, disclose um what they want to who they want, and for somebody who's um you know, who honestly wants to pay their taxes, that's a good thing. But, I

I realize you know, like okay, I don't approve of everything that my government spends its taxes for, but I do very much care about you know, um roads, bridges, and schools. And I I sort of know that if you make taxes optional for everybody, that stuff may become very underfunded, you know. >> Taxes are already kind of optional for everyone to some degree. The battle right now is not whether taxes will be optional, right? We have a voluntary tax um reporting scheme in most of the tax paying world that I'm aware of. Other than the fact that a lot of people are afraid about enforcement. But again, that's that's that's like a that's a retroactive, right, enforcement scheme.

But we have right now, basically, in the in the current system is a is a is a game theoretical a fight between the person who's paying you and you, right? So, if you get paid by an employer and they send a W- 2 to the IRS, right, and they haven't withheld any taxes, we'll just say we'll just say that they uh report your income to the IRS, right, then your self-reported taxes must match their reported taxes of how much they paid you. Otherwise, there's a discrepancy, and that's when enforcement happens. That's the current scheme. I'm actually fine with that. Only privacy coins, only shielded Zcash, enables that scheme to remain true.

Otherwise, you have exactly not an optional tax scheme. Now, you just have uh a tax scheme where everyone can see exactly what everyone is paying and will forcibly, right, well, that it that takes the entire game theoretic game away. So, uh what that does is actually increase power to authoritarian regimes, to governments, to to corruption, uh it from people already in a lot of power because they'll be able to see everything. And so, shielded Zcash and other privacy coins, in particular, protect optional tax more than uh the transparent tokens, the CBDCs, etc.

>> Thanks for the answer, and I appreciate the the the uh game theoretic answer to that, so. >> Sweet. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I'm smart and pretty. Um so, we talked about swaps. Uh you can get paid privately by them, right? You turn a swap deposit into a payment experience by creating a swap deposit that someone else sends the money to fulfill. Does that make sense? I see nodding, which is good. Okay, cool. That one that swap deposit to get to get paid, by the way, that's like the single most complicated thing that you do that I do in crypto, and it's the single most difficult thing to explain to someone who's in corner got a lot of different buttons they have to press, which is difficult um when again you're naked in a room with a man and he's touching you.

Okay, so off-ramping. Um once you have crypto, how do you spend it, which is the question from over there, right? This is really important cuz when you have crypto, great, where do you spend it on? Right? How do you actually make it use of it in real life? Again, person-to-person payments, just use the app you've already got. It's basically a payments uh you know, payments app as you would expect, so that's great. The more people you got adopting crypto, of course, the more vendors you can now, right, sell to you. I know sex workers who are tailors, video auto uh editors, uh nannies, uh programmers, uh various like we have like the sex work community is actually like incredibly skilled and varied.

We're not only selling a hole or pole. We're also selling that sometimes, I guess. Right? Like you can buy that on ManyVids or OnlyFans or whatever. MintStars is a place I like, but you can also find many sex workers doing other things, artists of various kinds, right, writers, copy editors, etc. More and more of them are using private payments via things like Zodo because we have to for like half of our income to get paid anyway. So that's a really nice virtuous adoption cycle, which is very nice. And the more you find literally like ask like if you find a sex worker who who's who like has a really cool aesthetic and you want some art from her or them or him, I guess, then, right, ask if you can pay this way. You'll find hopefully more and more

that are saying yes. Um Zcash merchants, right? You can uh have so tools like, for example, I mentioned earlier CypherPay. That's a payment processor that collects zero customer data. Uh it runs and settles any payments on Zcash. It integrates with WooCommerce and Shopify. It has an X402 um uh API. It has webhooks. It's got I mean, it's all it's got all the nice, you know, techy, cyborg-y bells and whistles that we all find super sexy. Um and, right, it'll accept Tron, Bitcoin, Litecoin, a bunch of other currencies, USDC, but it settles into Zcash. It's basically reverse cross-pay, right, for merchants for an e-commerce system.

And you can see more and more sites accepting stuff like like Uh and then of course, there's other um uh merchants online that we didn't really uh uh show here, but I want to mention as as honorable mentions, there's sites like travala.com, uh which will allow you to book hotels and purchase flights uh and rent cars. It's basically like think Priceline, but if it Priceline was crypto, right? So, that's real nice. Now, you can spend your crypto, right? On your travel. Uh and because, right? If you start with shielded Zcash in Zotlo, you can use Crosspay to pay in any cryptocurrency, which means now you get to choose the cryptocurrency with the best exchange rate for you, which is to say the swap the swap costs and stuff can be lower, too. Like I don't like paying in Bitcoin, it's slow and

expensive, obviously. I'd rather pay, right? If someone accepts something like Litecoin or USDC, for example, right? Great. [snorts] I would I'll send it to USDC, but it sends from my shielded balance. So, maybe the payment receiver is public, but the payer, at least on chain, is still private. And that's nice. Um so, Travala's a good one for that as example. And then there's gift card offerings, which are actually really, really popular amongst sex workers because we often get paid in gift cards to begin with, uh and so we're very familiar with them. Bitrefill, Pigi Gift Cards, Flexa, CakePay, all different kinds of gift card providers. You pay in crypto, you receive a gift card for Chipotle, Ulta Beauty, Sheets Gas, hotels.com, right? And then you pay with a gift card itself. So, I basically have

a ton of like Uber cash money uh like Lyft cash, right? To move around in cities that I've paid for with shielded Zcash via Crosspay to Bitrefill, get a gift card for Uber, and then I spend it in my app. The question is how efficient? What do you mean efficiency? Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. So, how much good Yeah, it's it actually that's a great question. It actually varies a lot, which is frustrating. Um Bitrefill is a little bit less, I believe, than for example, CakePay or DashPay is another one that has like gift cards. If you know about Dash Dash uh Dash Pay wallet has a gift card thing built into it so that you can spend Dash

in this way directly. But again, there are gift card vendors you can pay in any cryptocurrency because you can just set up sending Dash from your Zotopay account, too. So I like Dash Pay cuz it has a lot less like overcharges. Um that being said uh while it's not true for the communities that I work with, most crypto people the crypto native people, right? I found generally are more okay over paying that you know when if they have a lot of crypto than they have a lot of fiat. People who are crypto rich and cash poor, if you will, right? Typically are willing to spend anywhere between I find two to 10% even over what you might spend with dollars alone like just from your bank account to get the features that you want for the

crypto. So that's I think where these these business models come in like Bitrefill knows that and they charge a little bit more. But it does work. And for what it's worth, if you're using a coin that pumps a lot, I don't know, Zcash, then you end up with, right? A lot of money that you can spend to get your gift cards. What I typically do now that I basically am entirely crypto and my clients pay in crypto and I get crypto like I get I get paid in crypto is I have enough thankfully finally to basically just hold on to it until the next like coin alert right or coin market price or whatever alert gets to like a plus 10%. If I had $100, now I have $110. Great, I'll put those $10, right? Into an Uber card an Uber cash card so I can have 10 additional dollars

there and I'm basically cost a dollar cost averaging, right? Out by operational transactions. I'm kind of investing in the network itself that way. Does that track? >> Unfortunately, we we should wrap it up. >> Okay, we should wrap it >> over time, but yeah. >> I did mention Travala, Zotopay, we did that. We did Crosspay already. The last thing I want to say about Off Ramp things so we can wrap it up is you also have cards and this is probably the most simple one. This is the like this is the second part of those like I have two apps in 10 minutes to talk to somebody. This is what I'll give them. I'll give them Zotopay or Cake Wallet or some like good wallet app. And I'll give them something like Cash. cash.xyz for example, the Metamask black card, even Zebec.io. These are all various

different kinds of crypto-backed debit cards. And the idea here is that they're basically accepting stablecoin deposits into a kind of a neo bank. Um, and then they give you a card, either a virtual or a physical card, that you can actually tap to pay with a Visa or Mastercard logo on it. So now you're funding a reloadable debit card right from your shielded secret pool, and it ends up being a Visa or Mastercard card that you spend as you would any other Visa card. So the merchant that you're at, the restaurant or the cafe or whatever, just thinks that you paid with Visa, when you really ended up sourcing that funds from your shielded Zec, which is really nice.

Some of them do, some of them don't. Uh, Cash App requires the most KYC. Zebec requires the less at least. That's it. That's my talk. There's one more question there. This QR code >> A KYC crypto-backed Visa. >> Oh, let's talk. Yeah, what is it? Freedomeia? Freedomeia okay. >> Freedomeia. >> That one's new to me, so I want to talk to you about this in 2 minutes. I love this. I want to Again, don't leave. All right, so last thing, that's my QR code. You'll go to vitalikbuterin.com/crypto/faq. That's the easiest way to learn more about this. I will warn you, this website itself, this page, is not spicy in any way, but if you do click around that page a little bit, it gets spicier.

So choose your own adventure. I'm from a company an organization called zexy.com.