How To Navigate The DAT Saturation Wave with Aya and Shiliang

Transcript

in crypto like to say that the institutions have been coming for a while. Uh Shellang dared me to compare this to the Paul Rivere uh the British are coming quote but it it we've been saying it for a really long time. That's one way of, you know, how do we bring, I guess, merge the two worlds. Um, and if we can't quickly bring, you know, CFI to DeFi, you know, maybe we bring DeFi to DCI right? >> For example, there was rumors of Tom Lee buying call options instead of buying spot Ethereum. Right now, I'm not going to, you know, say that those are substantiated, but and now as we go longer and lower, they actually have a a higher chance of survival.

>> Welcome back to the Rowup. We are your hosts. I'm Andy. >> I'm Robbie. And this is your home to learn from the biggest guests, the brightest minds at the tip of innovation. Our goal is to help spread the collective knowledge of everyone in our community. We are breaking crypto out of its echo chamber and taking it to the real world. >> Guys, welcome to the stream. Uh, good to have you guys. >> Likewise. >> Thanks for having us. >> It's a it's a busy time. Hope you guys had a good Labor Day weekend. You know, we were hoping for a quiet quiet August, but that was not the case, was it? Like, >> no, it's uh doesn't feel like a summer at all. It's been getting wall cross on that all all summer on weekend.

>> Yeah, man. So, so I I I I've been spending quite uh quite a bit of time out here with a friend uh who runs uh you know pretty prominent VC in the space and uh just kind of like seeing how how he was working through August and um you know knowing that se August is like a really slow month on the institutional side. You know him and I were just kind of talking about what you know what some of the larger investors on Wall Street, some of these um Ethereum DAT investors, etc. are going to be doing now that se September's here and you know our theory and we spoke with the framework guys last week you know we basically have came to that there's going to be just a massive pickup in activity on the DAT side on the ETFs on the institutional

flows uh how are you guys thinking about this and what are you guys seeing and maybe first we haven't gotten an intro so I would just love to know first I'm on the show guys quick intro and then I'd love to just jump in as to what you you guys think the the next couple weeks of September have in store on the institutional side after a not so sleepy Augusta maybe you can go first and then Shillian guys thanks for joining >> sounds good yeah thanks again for for having both of us uh having worked with Chileang in the in the space for such a long time it's always great to be able to trade industry notes uh on a call like this so appreciate you both for hosting uh my quick background so have been in the space for a bit formerly part of the Pantara team and then part

of the founding team of Falcon X a C5 crime broker uh which uh Shellang will also speak to and now uh co-founder and co-CEO of August and Upshift. August is our institutional prime business for DeFi and CFI and Upshift is our yield platform. And as it pertains to August and September, I will mirror what Chelang said in that, you know, August was not the slow month we were expecting. Um there's kind of two divides that I would take this and uh Sholen has a lot of more context on this so I'd love to get his thoughts too, but uh you know the feedback we've gotten is everyone has a limited attention span.

So you can only uh send so many dats um and so many of these digital you know these treasury like products uh to the same type of road shows before people start to look for different yield opportunities. And it certainly feels like we might be at the tail tail end uh of that trend. And so um while it has been a very busy August, I think the next question is what's the next yield product for September to to kick us off with. Um there's that and then there's also, you know, the conference uh kickoff uh that crypto tends to see um with token 2049 really kicking off the circuit. And so, you know, that tends to also jump start a lot of the

conversations on the product and partnership side too. Introducing extended exclusively on Stark, a nextg per trading platform live today. With 50 plus trading pairs from crypto to tradi, you get the best experience on chain today. Deposit in the community vault for attractive returns compatible and engage in unified margin spot trading lending and per trading exclusively live at extended.app on Starknet today. >> Yeah, just to uh step in there. So, so um yeah, thanks for having me. But um I'm Shalang uh used to run a hedge fund called Ledger Prime like a multi strategy hedge fund. Uh and then subsequently started another firm called Arbalos Markets uh which was acquired by

Balconax um and uh my current fund um Monarch uh which is rebranded to Monarch from Eminent C uh and it's a relaunch of Ledger Prime uh was also majority acquired by Falcon X. Uh so basically we're an asset management firm. It's a multi strategy largely cryptofocused fund although more recently we've been you know doing a lot more um traditional cryptoreated equities um yeah and and you know I just echo what I says uh definitely in August um July August extremely busy on on these DOTs u for us we invest and so we we do a lot of you know due diligence on them um a lot of that due diligence happens on weekends

when you get walks on these vehicles and then subsequently We also um manage the treasuries for a handful of these uh DATs as well. And so post you know deal execution as you're accumulating um these assets uh or you hitting the ATM and and doing subsequent shelves uh will help accumulate more right and so it's it's been kind of two prongs there uh which kept us you know pretty busy and yeah I would say you know sitting in New York and in the US it certainly felt like the DAT trade has been going on for a long time but at the same time I think um abroad uh especially on Asia uh u they've been a bit slower on the pickup uh especially at the you know founding

stages and we're starting to see some of the later DATs that they're ongoing now actually um being predominantly Asian capital just because they were kind of left out or or weren't all the original um original ones to begin with. um uh there's like a fina one sl one there's a lot of Asian capital actually flowing in now to these later later ones and so you know there's bit of exhaustion from the US side but I think uh globally there there's still a lot of capital and attention uh that you know can be you know harvested for for these vehicles >> when when you're describing sort of the

the later nature of these uh these DATs H how do you how do you reconcile this in terms of the investability right like the sustainability of these treasury companies? Is there general macro policies or any sort of liquidity conditions any sort of drivers that you can point to outside of the DAT structure itself that can show you okay this is sustainable or no this is something that is really just piggybacking and it's copying these other formats. what what are some of the drivers that you look at um that are going to indicate to you this is something that's sustainable and this is something that still has some legs to it

uh versus the alternative. >> Yeah, I think um it's definitely case by case, right? I think um one is uh the shell, right? If you're going to do a pipe, like how clean is the shell? Is there like a a dirty legacy business? Is there a lot of uh warrants and converts um associated with it um that can make a trip you know stock harder to trade later down the line? Um is there like a lot of liquidity actually in the you know stock already? Uh and so and obviously the the coming in like the management team, right? Like that's you know a lot of this is is kind of like a marketing game. Um and uh you know how do you grab the attention of of the

public markets? Um, and you need someone that can bridge a gap between crypto and and institutions, right? And I think, you know, Tom Lee and mine has done a great job of that. Um, but some of the other vehicles that are less known and whatnot, I think um I've had a tougher time, right? And and so there's a lot of different um factors, right? And and obviously, you know, Bitcoin, Ethereum, I think are large enough and well known enough to sustain many vehicles, right? But some of the other tokens lesser known tokens um lesser known in the traditional institutional world I think it's going to be hard for them to sustain you know two three four vehicle right and and so uh and that that's going to be I think a problem you know down the line so so it is you know case

by case you know eos ecosystem um uh you know brought us into how we analyzing >> I had anything to add there >> yeah I mean I would I would just really anchor on the attention piece because you know how many Bitcoin any treasuries you know could possibly exist out there and it's not unique to DATs per se. It's for any product that is either first to market or has um you know a very marketable you know name to it like bullish um that really speaks to the retail Robin Hood trading crowd uh and so it is very much a marketing game and uh you know to Shellink's point there

are some organizations that have done a tremendous job of it and then there's others that you know maybe have marketed themselves really well uh but all of the factors that Shelink just mentioned are very poor on the back end management team uh structuring and unfortunately you know I'm sure those will have a much shorter uh lifespan because you know not everyone is good at managing money and uh it works well when prices are up and to the right but if we do have a lot of volatility uh come up I think it'll be very interesting to see you know how these play out given who the manager is across each of these structures. Yeah, I I think one of the things that is most interesting from our perspective and I

think a lot of our our audience is around the actual uh using of you know specifically Ethereum and also Salana in their respective ecosystems to generate yield and to provide basically more ways to keep the mnav higher uh you know than the or keep keep the premium you kind of rolling right. Um you know Robbie and I got our start in early 2020. We were, you know, we were some of the first on year on compound. We were very much in the trenches. So, have a good feel for uh yield farming and and just kind of generating yield. I'm curious when you're speaking uh with your prime brokerage business or on Upshift kind of how you're thinking about uh providing these offerings to either these DAC

codes uh ETFs kind of like what what interests are you seeing? um you know I is there is there is there a specific way in which these institutions need to operate on chain? How are you kind of uh seeing this play out? >> Yeah. Uh first off, it's good to know you were in the DeFi blue chip summer. That was a fun one. Uh definitely get off your phone. Yes. Yes. That was a good one. That was that was wild. Um those your days were good days. Uh but um yeah, I would say look a couple things need to happen. Uh the first is you know we in crypto like to say that the institutions have been coming for a while. Uh Shellang dared me to compare this to the Paul Rivere uh the British

are coming quote but it it we've been saying it for a really long time. And you know, the reason they haven't been able to come just yet is because we're still, you know, we we're still getting NAV and reporting uh organized to a way that, you know, someone can easily review what an APY looks like um without having to, you know, click through a number of different bullets and uh you know, compare different Excel spreadsheets. Um so that's the first. The second is Oracle redundancy uh smart contract security and underwriting. Um and then the last I would say is security right and I think this is where we've you know we built our business coming out of the FTX days where we

wanted to have a more secure um DeFi ecosystem that allows you to do CFI like trading but you know with all the tools and provisions um that CFI extends into DeFi. Uh and so you know when you have these um kind of treasuries set up you typically have them structured as SMAs. You have different managers who want to control exactly how they trade, where they trade. Um and today you know that doesn't really exist on chain. And so that's a gap that we've been able to fill. But uh it is you know still a very long road. I think it takes time to get people warmed up to you know trading on chain having it be you know fully um transparent. Uh and then also just the operational lift. We're still not there

yet where you can oneclick deep trade um unfortunately and and that's just because the technology is you know very very difficult. It changes every single day and um you just you know new chains pop up, new dabs pop up, uh new loops pop up, yield changes and um yeah so uh you know protocols are managing for that. >> Yeah. Shillian, do you have anything to add there maybe with regards to what some of your institutional clients's appetite is? Yeah, I think um you know we've always been very active in in DeFi and I think that's been our edge um to a certain extent, right? I think um we're a smaller fund, less regulated um than some of the traditional players and so has been able to access DeFi directly.

Uh I would say like you know broadly um know regulation held back uh DeFi access to certain extent um as well as infrastructure. I think you know regulation is is broadly getting lifted now right and whether you want to call this era of deregulation regulatory clarity u it does like open the floodgates um to just increasing you know competition and line share and access um and so uh I think you know generally um the the blocker isn't now just just purely um regulation it's actually like infrastructure Sure. Right. It's like I I think people underestimate how much

infrastructure has actually been built in DeFi and then also for traditional institutions how slowly they actually move as well. Um and so even if they could and wanted to I think um it does take just a tremendous amount of lift to um integrate with all the different platforms uh service all the different customers um if they want to touch DeFi and you know something as simple as cross collateral uhization of of assets and portfolios between CFI assets, traditional assets, onchain assets. Um, while it sounds like simple and and kind of like, you know, the ultimate north

star, it's pretty hard to set up, right? And that's, you know, something that firms like August and and Upshift are are building. Um but for traditional firms right it's extremely difficult and and you know one example of something I'm working actually working on right now with um some of the traditional bankers and and show entities is uh is is how do we bring like yield bearing products like to the traditional world right like you right now like absent of going directly you know and touch defi themselves which some firms still can't for you know KYC or AML and regulatory purposes you know they do it through an SPV or or they can uh do it through like a total return swap

be like a you know income passback uh method. Um both aren't really like elegant. It's it's cumbersome. So something that we're actually trying and borrowing from the DAT world is, you know, maybe there's a way to um use like depository receipts, right? And and Odyssey is a firm that basically can can bring um depository receipts uh from a qualified custodian um basically turn, you know, any yield bearing token uh into a DR that can be held in now traditional rails like a PB. uh and just by acting as a holding vehicle, you you actually get a yield bearing depository receipt um that can also be traded and used collateral in the traditional world

and rails uh of traditional PBS and and you know using that as as collateral to trade stocks and bonds and everything else right and you know there's a bit of lift there as well in terms of getting the necessary liquidity and and prime brokers comfortable with yield bearing tokens but um that's one way of you know how do we bring I guess merge are two roads. Um, and if we can't quickly bring, you know, CFI to DeFi, you know, maybe we bring DeFi to DCI, right? Uh, so, you know, those are some examples, you know, like the original vision here was that, you know, we we would all run our own validators. We would all verify the chain ourselves, right? Like I remember when I first opened up a wallet back in those D5 blue chip days, I had

to run a val a full nose at the same time just to own own a wallet. But what we're starting to get to is is more of this institutional foothold in owning pieces of these networks. And so I'm curious where this endgame develops maybe on like, you know, sort of a midterm time horizon. As we're increasingly seeing that retail does not want to run their own node, they don't even really want to know that they're using crypto. we're going to start to see institutional uh like institutions take a greater foothold in these networks.

And so I'm curious when you kind of forecast this out and Bit Mine owns 5% of the Ethereum supply and Sharplink owns another three or 4% and Michael Sailor and Micro Strategy own, you know, a larger percent of the Bitcoin supply. Would you guys say this does this pose a systemic risk to these networks or can it become kind of this this funnel and this outlet for the greater population to engage with the network from a more secure more convenient place? >> Shilling I'll let you take that one first.

>> Totally have thoughts. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think there's like two. One is like is this all in the spirit of what crypto originally like represented? Um >> I don't know man. Is it >> um you know it's kind of like >> yeah like the whole like you know original like Bitcoin saying like not your keys not your coin really like it's clearly not um but it is what will bring you know ultimate mass adoption um at least. So, so you know you can think of it in terms like stages right um you know having institutions hold their guilt keys and custody and everything probably is a heavy lift uh or just the average retail even um and so I would

like to think that we will progress you know we are progressing to the stage where it is more centralization and mass adoption and you know getting everyone comfortable and using the rails and exchanging and everything and there will be some point you know after that where know now that everyone is on boarded um you know doesn't mean that like you know 5% is a lot but at the same time it's not even close to the majority right uh and so I think there is a world where you know bifrocated world where you have like the institutions and it's very centralized but you still have kind of the self-serving u you know individualistic kind of you know world that that crypto origin

represented and uh I don't see why the two and coexist. >> Yeah, I would just say um you know I think relative to how much Bitcoin some of the OG holders already own, we've already reached you know some concerns around centralization. And so you know to Shellank's point I don't think these large institutions pose any net new risk that didn't already exist in the kind of prem institutional stage. Um I would say the risk that it does pose is you know uh volatility and price risk. If any one of these players takes on large leverage and it gets liquidated you know that

brings us back to a kind of um Black Friday event uh that we've seen in the past um that will require centralized stop gaps um again to kind of save the industry. Uh and so I actually think you know I I tend to sit in the camp where centralization uh there's there's definitely some benefits to it but also you know August was born out of FTX and um there is definitely limitations to you know how good centralization can be and um a lot of it is you know people taking on uh significant risk without knowing how to underwrite that risk and we're actually seeing that happen again um you know and and even if you think about what was the trading experience like when you all traded in 2020 over

the last five years, you know, I I can't say that the experience has gotten that that much better. Um, unfortunately, and it's just because the techn is really hard. Um, and I think people underell just how long it takes to build uh seamless user experience um on, you know, fully open uh code. Um, and you know, that then leads to people wanting to cut corners. Um and unfortunately I think what we've seen is in 2020 when we started the business you know we had a lot of requests for um risk mitigated uh features and now we're actually seeing a lot of requests for people to cut those those corners and um be able to do things in a much more seamless way with

uh less um checks and balances in place. And uh you know I think the only thing that keeps that in check is just large wax swan events unfortunately. And so um you know will we have another one? Uh yes you know always um you know ideally it doesn't happen from one of these large institutions that's holding you know four or 5% of any you know specific asset whether it's Bitcoin ETH or any of these other altcoins. Um but you know it's it's it's bound to happen. Uh whether it's one of these centralized parties or you know an exchange or or some other you know large 3AC like hedge fund. Um you know it's it's going to happen again.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think if we think about some of the larger risks for the current bull run, I mean, I think I think obviously there's like the macro factors, something like inflation going up too high, these sorts of things, but I think there's also like now these uh these systemic uh kind of debts that that are are people are kind of worried about. But but it does seem like there's a bit more of uh there's a lot more concern with what is actually happening publicly now likely as a result of like PTSD from previous cycles. Uh but also just that that this has been so public.

So from my perspective it's almost like well if everyone's already clearly stating that that this is going to be risky and that this could you know cause problems then perhaps it's less likely to actually uh really play out in that way. But I'm not sure if you guys have seen this and surely I'm super curious from your perspective. I know that you're deep in the DAT land. like has the DAT structures gone from like where they originally started uh which was like more of like I think if I'm not mistaken more of like pipes then they brought pipes in at the monies then they've kind of you know have they gone more and more riskier like almost like a senior tunch all the way to a junior tunch uh to kind of try to get more yield try to get more premium like are

you seeing the risk tolerance go up like for example there was rumors of Tom Lee buying call options instead of buying spot Ethereum Etherum right now I'm not going to you know say that those are substantiated but the the question is kind of like like is that process gradually happening because if it is then I think we may have that kind of black swan as Ilia or as ya presented uh at least as as a possibility. >> Yeah. Um I I like to think you know the buy and call strategy as um actually just smart execution.

>> All right, we got a DJ on our hands here in trader. He's an optin trader. So, just >> keep that in mind. >> It's It's definitely happening. Not saying Bit Maine is doing it, but you know, it's definitely happening across the space. Um >> as like a hedge or as like a way to get more upside or both >> as a way to get more up. >> Oh, sorry. All right. Like one way to kind of structure it is, you know, if you know you're going to buy a certain token um and you think you're going to, you know, ultimately drive the token higher, like you can buy a call option ahead of it, right, as as one way to kind of like amass additional tokens and get additional um leverage because like ultimately, you know, if it finishes in

the money, you know, you exercise and then you basically buy the tokens at a lower swipe as long as spot is above it, right? I think it would get dangerous if you know they were selling options on leverage, right? I think like that's where firms ultimately blow up, right? If you're buying, you're kind of your downside is kind of just a premium spent. Um but if you're like ultimately, you know, selling options eventually on leverage for yield, you know, because ultimately the the MNAP premiums for all these vehicles are are going to deflate out, right? And I think, you know, the majority of them will trade at par or at a discount, right? and and maybe the top top ones in high growth um native yield generating you know tokens and their associated debts you

know maybe they trade at like a 25 to 50% premium uh in the long term right I I think um you know the majority are going to deflate away right and so you know then to differentiate or to survive or or you know generate additional revenue or cash flow to basically you know continue buying the underlying tokens um that they resort to esoteric yo generating strategies or you know things on leverage or you know basically running a fund right uh you know and they don't have the proper knowledge or expertise to do that and run these you know more sophisticated strategies.

>> Yeah. then they run the risk of obviously blowing up uh and and ultimately bringing down know the whole uh uh individual entity and and obviously you know this space if if multiple are at the same time. >> Yeah. Um just a real quick followup there Rob just one last. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. September 19th I believe is a massive expirations date for options for Bitcoin and I believe for Ethereum showing maybe you can double check me on that uh if you're if you're familiar. I I'm I'm I'm just curious like more in the short term here in September, what is the options market kind of telling you from a from like a IV perspective or just from a risk parameter perspective?

>> Yeah, I mean there's a few events, right? Like even this week there's been a bit of um VA premium to it. I think there was the ISM today and then there's the unemploy there's employment data uh coming out on Friday. Um and then you know those are kind of the drivers of you know ultimately later on in the month for the Fed rate decision. Um so all that is getting priced into the options markets as events that can move the market and and so the options market is obviously priced in you know fall um for all these different events and and obviously the big one is the Fed funds uh decision later in the month right and even though it's priced in uh I think you know the not not the amount and and whether they they actually cut or not

it's it's more about um funds constant or at the words and how he prevents you know, to help the rate cut and and the index, right? So, the market is definitely pricing, you know, more volatility in September than previous. >> Nice. I got a couple quick ones before we let you go. Uh, one is that my understanding of these dats is that the the cost of setting them up occurs up front. And so to me that that says okay well the longer that these companies survive the less their operating expenditure is if most of their costs occur up front and they're not recurring. And so is there a Lindy effect to these maybe Sharink and Micro

Strategy? They've been around for a long time. The newer ones that come up a little bit later aren't going to have as much time to sort of dilute those initial expenses. But some of the ones that you know we saw start months ago, Bitmine, Sharp Link are maybe, you know, three, four months old, still relatively early. But have they had a chance to get through some of that initial expenditure and now as we go longer and larger, they actually have a a higher chance of survival. >> Yeah, I would say I mean I don't think fees ultimately it's kind of like fees and even yield to a certain extent. Like people talk about okay like you know how do you generate yield in the assets like five per like that's not really going to move the needle for like whether these

things survive like 5% yield great like it's not going to like really bring additional like retail capital to these vehicles right um and same with fees and there's ways to mitigate fees also like one is invest in investment banking fees have come down tremendously in the past you know three months right from a lot of these vehicles to the asset management fees as well in the past three months Um, and then there's ways to mitigate that, right? Like you have a one for one like staple warrant to these vehicles. Um, like you know, a lot of these vehicles do this now is, you know, the the kind of baseline MNAV is like 1.2.

So it's basically like 20% low, but like you just throw like either like discounted tokens into it or you throw like a warrant um on top of it and and basically that that kind of just lowers the whole end down to like one, right? It's not it's kind of artificial, right? because like the warrant is ultimately diluted. It's like a shared dividend. But um you know there's ways to kind of like mitigate that and it's it's important right and people should ask these questions is you know is is management aligned like how much upfront fees there is and everything else but I don't think that that ultimately all that you know drives the whether the these things survive or not in the long term.

>> Got it. And uh the other follow-up I had was that earlier we were talking about Micro Strategy now checking the boxes and meeting the criteria for the S&P. Uh they have a decision later this month to take out some companies from the index, put some new companies in the index. One, do you think this happens either now or sometime in the near future? And two, if it happens, will we see some sort of onsw switch flip and, you know, see some liquidity rush in as these passive funds, you know, are accumulating the the S&P? What do you think is the the domino effect of bringing Micro Strategy or another one of these DATs into the S&P?

>> Um, yeah, I think it's I hope so. Uh, I think it will get included. Um yeah, I think it'll get included and I hope certainly hope so and and a lot of the uh success of these vehicles has been on the volatility right and hopefully at least in the short term you know getting included in the S&P drives additional interest and price action increase volatility and so it enables you know Micro Strategy or anyone else um to harvest that right and and kind of you know generate addition yield and cash to to accumulate additional tokens. And so I hope that happens. I think you know if it happens that it drives additional

volatility and ultimately it's good for DATs, it's good for tokens um and it's good for space at least in the short term. >> Yeah. I do you want to add anything there? Yeah, I mean uh again like this all looks great as long as price is up and to the right, you know. Um volatility is not always up and to the right. And so, you know, as uh and I I agree, I think it'll get included in the S&P 500, but that also means that you can, you know, take on additional leverage. And you know there is pretty large systemic risk in you know the vault of Bitcoin relative to um you know the structure that micro strategy has running. I think uh that in

itself is is kind of the black swan we don't love to talk about in the industry but is very very much there. Um and so you know I think uh it's great for the space. you know, it'll be hopefully good also for uh inclusion of non- US funds um once it's in the S&P 500 uh as well, just on a you know, marketing basis. Um but uh yeah, overall overall great for the space. I I will say the one thing, you know, that that we have seen is um Tishelang's earlier point, there hasn't been that much volatility and interesting yield opportunities in the last two months. And it'll be interesting to see if September kind of changes that around. But um to take on

significant risk to earn 5% which is kind of the call it risk-free rate uh doesn't necessarily make sense. And so you know at some point people will have to potentially offset you know cost by going into more esoteric yield strategies. And that's that's again like talking about risk that's where the risk is um and whether people can manage that well. >> Yeah. Um I I just want to give you a chance to shoot your shot here. Where can people find you? Where can people use Upshift? You know, who who are you looking for? Um as as we close out.

>> Yeah. Yeah, of course. Um so, uh we actually have uh Monarch as one of our uh one of our curators on the Upshift uh platform. You can check us out at upshift.inance. Uh I would say, you know, a lot of what we focus on is, you know, everything that we mentioned on the call today is mitigation of risk, right? And um it's easy uh to look like you guys know as well coming from 2020. It's easy to look like you're a good trader uh when the market's doing well and then really complex when you start to get that volatility. So um as we do expect ball to increase in September and uh Q3 tends to be a very volatile quarter for crypto in general. Uh we definitely want to see you know professional managers uh and curators manage that risk. So check us

out >> guys. Thank you for joining us. It's been a pleasure. Uh I I I I find this meta of the conversation of the of the cycle to be uh relatively interesting as this new information. Um but but also kind of like you know I don't know I don't know if it's as if it's as exciting if it's as exciting as winding up uh algorithmic stable coins on weird collateral or uh super super crazy lending. But you know it is what we got this time around. Look, all of that's going to be included in in these dats soon enough. So, you know, it will converge. It will converge.

>> Yeah. Shillian, stay safe out there in those options territories, man. Burn me once, burn me twice. Shame on me, shame on you. >> Thanks. >> Yeah. Thank you guys. >> Thanks for joining, guys. We'll see you in the next round. See you soon. >> Really appreciate it. See you. >> Cheers.