How Kraken Is Building the Anti-Bank with Mark Greenberg

Transcript

But for this specific use case, the idea is to bring in as many new users into an app that they maybe don't even care has crypto in it. The actual fintech services right now are actually not that compelling either from a a transfer perspective. So like who are you really competing with? What are some of the network effects or synergies between products in the Kraken stack that you could see coming up uh as a result of integrating these >> [music] >> Welcome back to another episode of Money Moves Fast, our premier weekly show covering all things tokenization, RWAS,

and payments. This show is made possible by Polygon, the leading blockchain for payments and RWAs. Money Moves Fast is the convergence of Wall Street and digital assets. Now, sit back, relax, [music] and enjoy the show. >> Boom. Money Moves Fast episode 13. Mark Greenberg here today from the head of Kraken Consumer's Business Division. Mark, thanks for calling in, man. >> Hey guys, thanks for having me. Right. >> Pleasure. We are just riffing on all these different neo banking uh kind of you know applications and differences and there's just this whole sector is really is really growing. Today we are on Money Moves Fast episode number 13, which is our weekly premiere to tokenization and payments show powered

by Polygon, one of the leading providers for stable coin payments. Uh, low fees, great transactions, easy experience, use the chain. Check it out, guys. We got Mark Greenberg here. Mark, quick background on you, man. Um, head of Cracker, Krakens Consumer Business. What does this mean? What is the head of Krakens? Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a good question. It's a bunch of different stuff, Andy. Uh I lead all of our uh work on crypto trading on the retail side. Everything we do around tokenized equities and equities here. So, everything we're doing around X stocks and then uh also everything we're doing with our brand new uh neoank uh competitor money app called Crack. So, uh, really excited with, uh, we got so much on the go here

and we just believe that there's so many opportunities for Kraken to, uh, make everyday payments and investing and trading just a lot easier. >> OG Kraken users, by the way. >> Oh, yeah. I think Kraken was >> our first centralized exchange that I I opened up way back either 2016, 2018, something like that. Um, and I felt like you guys were one of the one of the the uh pioneers in the space. Like you guys got started, you always had like this really core brand ethos of uh kind of like this adventurous guys like when crypto was the wild west, right? It it feels like the the vibe has shifted a little bit and I think you caught a little bit of the the uh rant we were going on before you joined, which is

that we almost have this new category, this next generation of fintech that's popping up. It's neo banks. Um it's centralized exchanges, but also going into the decentralized world as well. It's not quite quite crypto, but it's also not quite uh uh web 2. It's sort of this this uh it's not quite like Wall Street Finance. It's not quite Silicon Valley, you know, AI slop. It's like somewhere in the middle. It's trying to take the best of both worlds out of out of all of these things. And so I'm thinking, you know, my question is what was the inspiration behind crack? When you when you're looking out at what banking and crypto and money and finance is going to look like over the coming, you know, decades, you guys saw an opening for crack. What was the

inspiration? What do you think that is going to look like over the coming years? >> Look guys, I've spent my whole life trying to make banks suck less, and banking still sucks. I I just like it is still too hard to do most of the basics. If you think about what Kraken's been really good at for more than a decade now, it's turning one thing into another thing in the Kraken platform, right? So that was fiat and stable coins and crypto. Now it's tokenized equities. It's uh lots of different pieces that we're putting under the hood. More different types of currencies, more different types of stable coins, more different types of assets. Um that's what's always to me been broken about banking to a large extent, too. Why, as a Canadian, do I have to hold mostly

Canadian dollars? Why do I have to be paid in Canadian dollars? Then I can convert it and then I can use my Canadian dollar credit card. Oh, well, shoot. I have to convert it back. I was talking to someone today. They're like like, okay, the best way to get euros is you take your Canadian dollar out of your bank account. You move it to US dollars by Wise. Then you move the US dollars by Wise to Revolute in Europe. and then you can spend on your European card. Those are the kind of things that are just completely outdated. As a Canadian, I don't necessarily want to hold Canadian dollars. Um, we've seen what's happened in Canada over the last few years. And maybe it's not the place where I want to store my wealth. Maybe I want to store it in Tesla stock. Maybe I

want to store it in Bitcoin. Maybe I want to store it in Ethereum, Salana, you name it. Stable coins in US dollars. All of those are options now. and banking still hasn't really caught up to the fact that everything can be money and uh we want to be able to spend everything that we're using as money in the moment. And so that's what we were excited about with Krak takes all the things that Kraken was really good at behind the scenes and um puts it uh front and center. >> Awesome. And so we also uh we realize that the big banks are not going to go down without a fight. Like you said, we know this that banks sort of suck.

They've sucked for a long time. we're trying to make them suck less, but we're almost, you know, inventing a new form of bank, uh, rather than, you know, seeing the big banks sort of, you know, be sort of reflective and and understand that, you know, maybe they can improve their own products. And so I I'm curious how you think the the banking the legacy banking companies are going to respond to this. How do you think legacy banks are going to approach crypto in your experience? uh will we see them you know augment their services with something like crack with neo banks in you know M&A are they going to start to acquire more of these things when when you you know are looking at the banking uh system today how do you think they're

going to react to the uprising of neo bankanking and crypto >> look I'm going to say slow and late just to start right so I don't think this is happening anytime soon typically my experience with bigger banks is they're going to talk about this for a long time before they take action on it and we're now in this talking stage. So maybe we get to action at some point. First and foremost, um I think they're going to continue to use Kraken behind the scenes. So whether it's crack our own neo bank or whether it's Kraken in bed which empowers uh banks like bunk um crypto does need to be a part stable coins do need to be a part of banking in the future and we do expect folks to use

the security and transparency and liquidity of Kraken to make that happen. That being said, I still think banks aren't yet in a position to get to a place where they are going to see things other than their local fiat as uh as money. And that's something that I think more and more users are seeing like, hey, why do I have to hold fiat? Is fiat really going to hold its value? Why can't I hold gold and stable coins and others? And so I do think that's going to be something that banks are slow and and later on. I don't really see them as our key competitors. I do see some of the neo banks though moving more into that same kind of narrative and I'm

personally excited for it. I I look forward to having a a wealth of new types of money apps that don't operate the way the traditional >> Yeah, most definitely. And and I think there's a global use case for that. there's a democratization thesis around that as well. Um a and so you know we're talking more about this uh you know about this app specifically and and we just looked at a a chart comparing different neo banks and there's all these different types of categories here. I think like maybe you could just walk us through the high level of what makes a really really good NEO bank, you know, uh debit card, vaults, salaries, uh um uh earnings, payments, um uh

crypto first kind of uh user experience like what makes uh a really solid NEO bank, you know, and kind of like how do you think about uh the idea of um building a really solid finance app for somebody to kind of have like this one-stop shop. >> Yeah. Um it starts with the ability, it's three things. So the ability to spend your money, save your money, and send your money to others, right? Those are really the three things. Maybe deposit as well. So um let's start with spend your money. So we launched uh recently the crack card in Europe and the UK. 1% cam up to you

or stable coins. Uh you can spend from any currency you like, which is pretty cool. And including uh everything as silly as maybe Fartcoin if you're into that kind of thing, all the way through to US dollars or euros or stable coins or CAD or whatever you want to actually spend or actually X stocks, which for me is something really exciting. Then you got, hey, money is going to sit in this account and I'm going to want to save it. How do I let it grow? Well, onchain DeFi yields are some of the best, safest opportunities out there. And um we're going to have in the Crack app over the next few weeks, 10% plus yield opportunityities.

Those ones are the more risky ones. We'll also have, you know, five six% ones that are less risky, but opportunity for folks to earn more than the basically zero that most of the traditional banks pay at this point. And then you're going to want to be able to move the money in and out. uh that means payroll deposits and pieces like that. So we're working with a number of different organizations to make that uh available by default but you also have you know regular banking ibands in Europe and the UK when you use crack. Uh but then also um the ability to every market is a little bit different and what that means in Canada it's specific bill pay approaches etc. Uh those are the three things you need to make a really great bank. Uh or a really great money app because we're not a bank. But

banks historically have really done none of those super well. A little bit on the card. They've been pretty good at card um at the same time, but typically don't give most of the value back to the users. Uh secondly, they don't allow you to save in all sorts of different things and they certainly don't allow you to grow your money in all sorts of different types of assets. And then um uh so those are things that we're really excited about being able to use onchain defy opportunities for and um what we're excited about with crack. >> Awesome. Trade on anything, [music] economics weather sports crypto and more. All on couch.com 24/7 [music] for the world's biggest prediction market.

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getting bundled up. You got X stocks, >> Robin Hoods. Yep. >> The Robin Hoods, right? Everything is becoming, you know, you can go there, earn yield there, right? 7% 4% you can get access to DeFi yields effectively as a checking or savings account. Be checking because you have your card, savings because you have a high yielding account, and then you have your stock and your brokerage account right there in the same app. Do how how do you see this playing out? How do you think consumers are going to react to it and and you know where do you think uh where do you think the uh the the points are?

Well, first I get excited about all the places something like XTOCs can be offered. Financial apps, sure, but actually you can buy Xtocks on Telegram. >> Uh any and so if you're in a country like Usbekiststan and you had no access to stocks in a prior life, unless you went through an arduous complex process because you had a lot of money. Uh well, you can just do that now inside your messaging app. um more and more of finance should operate like that where you don't need to go through 10,000 different steps in order to get access to uh the same thing as the big boys.

Yeah. And um uh >> is that so yes now that's coming to certain like super apps on the financial side. Great. you know, like why did I need three different apps to do the basics of holding Bitcoin and a stable coin and fiat and a stock and a venture fund and all these other things over time? We should have one ability to do that. But actually, I hope over time that actually comes totally out of traditional bank style apps and broker dealer style apps and we get to a place where this is just uh common place for you to use the kind of apps you use every day to uh buy and sell stocks or tokenize stocks and have yield on your assets as well. So that that's kind of where I see it going uh much more and

and maybe this like super app kind of thing is a step in that direction. >> Yeah, Mark. So, this is actually quite the episode because you guys have, you know, recently rolled out this this crack app or at least kind of announced it and you guys also just acquired backed uh last week. Um, so like a lot of things happening on this kind of tokenization kind of like bridging this gap front. Why did you guys acquire backed and maybe you could like layer that into your thesis about how you think tokenized assets will kind of reshape global capital markets? We just saw uh the um US SEC is it chairman Paul Atkins say that uh all markets will be on chain in two years. So like clearly it's happening from the highest of

powers. Talk to us about your tokenized asset thesis as it relates to Backed and and that acquisition. >> Yeah. Um so we started Xtocks in partnership with Back now in first week of July. So we're we're coming on six months at this moment. Um, the thesis isn't that different than banking sucks because equities suck even more. Uh, we wanted to get to a place where you could have all the advantages you get at crypto trading on equities. I can store them in my own self-custodial wallet. I can trade them 24/7. I can move them to anyone I want. I can buy them anywhere in the world. And uh, I can use them as collateral to get loans. Why couldn't stocks look like that? And I often use

my own personal examples where like in Canada it's almost impossible to buy a European stock or when you're trying to move from one broker to another. I don't know if you guys have ever done that, but like trying to move an equity from broker X to broker Y can take weeks sometimes where you can't even touch your assets. When I did this in Canada, there was an actual fax sent a few months ago. I didn't even know faxes existed anymore. [snorts] >> So >> way the Canadian way, man. >> Exactly. And I like to pick on Canada, but >> my parents are from Barry, man. So, it's it just hits different. My parents are from Toronto, basically, so it's pretty funny.

>> So, um, uh, why can't tokenized equity solve all of that? And now they can. So, XT stocks are regulated, uh, in Europe through a retail perspectus, all sorts of, and then there there are actual stocks held behind the scenes to make sure that you can use your tokenized equities in a very similar way to the way stable coins work. So there are real equities there. Uh we store them in a special purpose vehicle and then you can buy and sell tokenized equities 24/7 on Salana, on Ethereum, you can buy them on Telegram, you can sell them on Telegram, you can do all sorts of different things with them that just you can't do with traditional equities. And uh backed we we looked far and wide to find

someone who could help us do this because as I said, we have this Kraken platform. We're really uh good at liquidity and good at moving thing A to thing B. How do we do that same kind of thing on the equity side? We talked to a billion folks. There's a lot of companies out there doing permission. You got to be KYC. You can only do it on a Tuesday. You know, like all sorts of very complex rules around this. Backed had a specific approach that was really unique and allowed us to create X docks in a truly permissionless way. Um, >> awesome.

>> A few months of working together, we decided it was too cool to pass up and that's the end of the story. [laughter] And now we just continue to work together on making it huge and uh and growing X stocks together. I'm super bullied. >> So, how big is X stocks now? Users, volume, integrations, like how has has the growth been what you expected? More or less kind of how's it looking? >> Yeah, it went really it's going really well. So, we're at about 80,000 users of Xtocks, about $200 million or so of value locked up in XOX so far. Um, just getting started to be honest. Uh, lots lots more growth to come. Uh, but we're starting to see that that hockey stick as people are using it. And, uh, you know, we're at 12 billion dollars of uh

of volume. So, those are 12 billion dollars of trades that have happened across centralized platforms and on chain. So, um, and I think that number was 10 billion even a few weeks ago. So, growing really fast, seeing a lot of success and, uh, look forward to just finding more and more places to, um, for Xbox to be offered among many different apps. I'd say the most fun part for me is the very first Xtocks billboard, not related to Kraken in any way. It showed up in South Africa. a company in South Africa saw it as an opportunity for them to sell stocks directly to folks in that market without having to go through the hoops that you would normally would have to do and uh so they put up a billboard about it uh in Johannesburg. So that's the kind of thing I get excited about

with X stocks. Yes, you can buy and sell them on Kraken. Yes, you can buy and sell them on on Telegram. But the more people around the world we can give access to uh XTOS through as many different apps and experiences as possible, the the more excited I get. >> Very I love it, man. I think >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> No, I just think that that democratization of access was a big thing that a lot of us were interested in when we first got into the space, uh which for us was like in the in the 2017 era. And it feels like we're just now really starting to get that level of adoption with stable coins and this neo banking primitive that is enabling the Turkeys, the Syrias, the Latams of the world to really kind of come on chain uh

participate in global equity markets, especially US equity markets and then do it in a way that preserves their purchasing power from their local currency as well. And so there's like a lot of really cool happenings here that actually are ironically linked to like institutions and to the suits which people are like oh I don't want to be the suit but then we're actually providing the core ethos of the space at the same time for like banking the unbanked and such. So I just want to throw that in there. >> Totally agree. I look everyone should have the same access to everything. I strongly believe in that. Uh and I think that's something that crypto enables in a totally different way. stable coins do the same thing. You know, as a Canadian, I have far more access to US dollar yield than I ever had before through

something like USDG. And uh we're just going to bring that to more and more asset classes over time. That is the promise of of uh crypto. It's the promise of blockchain and it's exactly what I think Xbox and tokenized equities and the crack app in a different way are providing for folks. So super pumped about what we're building here. Could could you tell us more about the Crack app because I think people are somewhat familiar. They're familiar with the uh exchange offering on Kraken. They're familiar with Inc. and an onchain ecosystem. Um the Crack app, tell us more about it. What what are the distribution channels like? What what do you guys currently have on there and how does it separate from the other uh existing parts of the stack? Yeah. So, one thing that we've been probably

unique versus others on is we prefer to have a group of apps that do one or few things really, really well and that interact with one another. And so, Krak is our money app. It uh connects deeply into the Kraken ecosystem. You can use your Kraken username and password. you can move funds back and forth between them, but it is designed to be the replacement for your checking account or current account. Uh, available around the world, allows you to send and receive any asset that we of the 400 plus that we support here at Kraken and more coming every single day. Uh, if you're in Europe or in the UK, you get

access to a card. We're working on getting that around the world and just continuing to build basically something that can replace your bank account. Uh will it and it just works seamlessly with all the other apps that we have at Kraken whether that's Kraken or Kraken Pro or uh the Inc. ecosystem etc. So, uh, get the best of Kraken for a different use case and money in saving and spending your money and, uh, and we look forward to bringing a whole next generation of users into the Kraken ecosystem via this different approach. >> I think that's spot on. The next generation of users are not going to be uh, intellectually captured by the legacy banks thinking that their savings account can only earn them a quarter% per year, which is probably pretty

generous for the existing banks. the the new generation is going to come first to something like a crack app and they're gonna see seven, eight, nine percent probably through some onchain yield source that you guys are passing through uh to the app and the end consumer is going to be why am I going to use you know some of these existing legacy banks that give me a quarter percent I can go get you know 20 times the yield on my savings account by depositing through something like crack. >> Yeah. Exa Exactly. Look there going to be some users that are going to chase the yield that's available for them. there's going to be a different group of users who don't want to trust a bank to lend out their money and hopefully have it behind the scenes afterwards. So, if you want to hold T- bills, you want to

hold gold, uh, tokenized gold, you want to hold tokenized equities as your main mechanism of holding money, uh, you can do that as well. And there'll be a whole group of users who want to do that. And then, um, and then it's also just faster to transact in crypto versus cash. um whether that's a stable coin or uh or crypto directly, you can while money apps while banks have done a good job of more or less making that hidden behind the scenes for you within a country, it's still really hard to get when I'm I'm in the US right now. When I when I try and like pay a friend here or give them 10 bucks, still the only way to

really do that again. There's like one or two apps. can't use Venmo, can't use Zel, can't use any of the things that folks can't use Cash App. So, I still end up going for boring old fiat. I literally go to the bank, take out money, and hand it to someone. Uh, that's ridiculous. And Crack app is part of, I think, the solve because Crack app is in all these countries at the same time and allows you to move move money easily. >> Well, I've just downloaded it. It looks pretty pretty cool branding on it. So, I'll have to set up the set up the account. You're saying that we can just sign in with with our Kraken account, which is awesome. It looks like it says that here. So that's exciting. Uh I'm curious when you're thinking about like you know Robbie's talking about right so

there's banks that the saving the savings rate isn't that interesting. Now you're getting to a separate point where is like the actual fintech services right now are actually not that compelling either from a a transfer perspective. So like who are you really competing with? Is it traditional neo banks like Revolute? Is it Venmo? Or is it some of these more traditional banks like Chase or Wells Fargo that that Rob's mentioned? seem like there's like there's faults on both side that you guys, you know, for lack of a better term, would be looking to exploit from a business case. How do you kind of think about competition? >> I don't think anyone has the street cred around bringing the best of the crypto world and the old traditional banking world that Kraken has. So, I think we're

actually in a really unique spot with the Krak app. We're taking some of the things that we've done as well, if not better than anyone on both sides of that and putting them together into something that is a little different from everything out there. Yes, on one hand you've got the traditional banks who uh you know, we've talked a lot about the issues there. Uh on the other hand, you've also got folks who are they've got a lot of these more onchain cryptospecific offerings that also just don't always work in the easiest simplest ways for folks uh who still need to operate mostly in the traditional world. And that's what we're trying to bridge with uh with Krak at the moment. Um, we'll have offerings in

all sorts of different spaces and so we will have some more onchain specific opportunities as well here at Kraken and we're just building those. But for this specific use case, the idea is to bring in as many new users into an app that they maybe don't even care has crypto in it uh to allow them to use the benefits of crypto, of blockchain, of stable coins, of X stocks without having to actually spend a whole lot of time um figuring it out necessarily. Yet is built for big moments, the most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game.

>> Looking for yield that stands out? Infinifi gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinify is a battle tested, reliable defy platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz. Havachi is [music] fast and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. [music] Go to habachi.xyz. XYZ to start trading today. >> So maybe just a bit more uh concrete than on on the question with regards uh to competition. Uh there there's this uh chart here of crypto cards and there's basically by categorization of bas categorization basis moes. We've got perks and incentive programs, speed and UX advantages, geographic or regional

lockins, infrastructure or white label, network effects, regulatory licensing, uh regulatory licensing advantage, exchange platform integration and privacy niche niche positioning. Um, and you've kind of got all these different cards from the cast, Crypto.com, Rain, Etherf, Holy Held, Kaju Metamas Arjun Cipher Tuyo there's 30 of them now. Um, I know I just laid out a lot of categories here, but like whi what is the edge and the core insight behind Crack Card that other crypto cards aren't solving? Like why do we need another crypto card right here, right now? Um, you know, is it cashback? Is it multi-asset? Is it rewards? What is it in these kind of

like categorizations that you feel that you guys have a sign a significant advantage in? >> Yeah. So, first, the rewards are industryleading. So, we're it's a Europe and UK card. When we bring the US card to market, it will also have some of the highest rewards out there. That's first. Second, what makes it really unique is that you can store your value in anything and spend it uh just the same way you would local fiat. That's something that uh you you just can't can't do easily in this world today. Um, so bringing all those assets to market, uh, is something that's really important. Again, as a Canadian, I hate holding Canadian dollars. I'd much

rather hold USDG and earn my 4% yield. Uh, I can do that just very, very simply with the crack card. I never have to worry about it. I still get the yield as if I had an American bank account. And I also get to spend it in the same way while being in Canada. Um, a lot of my European friends uh like to hold US dollars as well. Some of them like to hold Bitcoin and spend from Bitcoin. All of those are available with the crack card very easily and simply. And you can just choose your order. You can just pick which which uh which assets you want to spend from first within your account. So for me, that's the big differentiator, but absolutely important that we offer yields, sorry, rewards that are at the uh at the same level or higher as anyone else on the market. and

that that 1% we have in Europe and the UK is and we'll bring a card, you know, with the similar with a with the percentage that would make sense for the US when we launch that uh over the coming months. >> And is 1% not low for cash back? You're saying >> it's not in Europe. So, we're only in Europe and the UK right now. One of the weird quirks about cards is that uh if you're a US card holder, uh you're used to probably things like >> three to four%. Yeah. Uh, expect the crack card in the US to have that. The interchange fees, uh, which fund those things are different in the US versus Europe and the UK. They're actually capped in Europe and the UK, um, at a much lower level. So, 1% while it sounds quite a bit lower, is actually uh, uh, market

leading within the UK and and Europe as well. So, uh, that's the percentage we have there. We'll probably continue to find ways to grow it over time. And then when we launch in the US over the coming months, uh, expect to see something, yeah, much closer to that 4 percent. >> Yeah, it makes sense because there's lower fees on the card transactions. Over in Europe, uh, there's lower cash back, but, you know, over in the US, higher fees, higher cash back, it kind of balances out. I I I wanted to ask about how we might see having multiple products here all under one roof uh, tends to create some network effects. And I and I can sort of picture like some different reward mechanisms like having X stocks and uh

crack card and you know this this on the crack money app you know almost imagine like you know rewarding people with X stocks right if they want to do almost like an acorns like used to do where you invest a little bit at a time uh and you kind of roll over you round up your card transactions into a stock in this case a tokenized stock. What are some of the network effects or synergies between products in the Kraken stack that you could see coming up uh as a result of integrating these? >> Yeah. So, it all starts from that Kraken platform that I started originally. We have the safest place to store your crypto um with 400 500 600 now assets under the hood uh and more coming with X

stocks growing each and every day. uh that then allows us to take th So if you can move those assets uh from anything to anything, you can move them in and out of fiat in 100 plus countries and you can access uh you can access them within an app like the Crack app or in the Kraken app. We have lots of things that we can do. First, you can spend from all of them out of the box right away. You can have the app. You don't have to go country by country to get a banking license because we have the licenses that we can use in countries around the world. The Crack app is in 100 plus countries right at this individual moment. You can sign up from any of them. And then yeah, lots of different pieces. So, we're going to

play with um those kind of rewards. We'll probably play with accounts for kids over time, the ability for them to stack sats or stack stocks uh and and learn how to save over time. We'll talk about um uh launching different kind of reward mechanisms. Right now we have crackbacks which every time you send or receive a uh once a day every time you if you send and receive uh from someone you'll get a random crypto token. So we'll offer those and continue to offer those. It's just lots more coming over time. I don't have a I think we're we're listening to users. We're trying to expand thoughtfully for what they want.

But just the fact that out of the box you get equities and crypto and stable coins and fiat and seven plus currencies all available to you uh in 100 plus countries I think is something that's really special. >> Yeah, I mean Mark, everyone's excited for Kraken. Um you got a big year ahead. You've got uh rumors of IPOs. You've got this Inc. uh product that has came out and started to really kind of be popular. They've got a new purp there, NATO. People are excited about that. People are rumoring Kraken tokens, Kraken uh stock. What is it like internally right now? How are you guys preparing for 2026? How's the how's the

kind of energy in the culture? >> Yeah, we're um the opportunities are endless. We have so much to do and so every day uh just feels like we get we're behind at the same time. Um we're building so much. We're excited about all the areas we're investing in. We've got a brand new uh app called Inky, which is a more gamified trading experience coming out today. Uh so, lots and lots of things coming out uh every single day. We're really really excited about everything that we can do, but also really um focused on continuing to build the best darn uh experiences we can for users. So, so pumped about everything that we've got going on. way uh uh and just like a huge

responsibility on our shoulders to keep building all the things that we want to build for consumers around the world. >> Inky heard it here first. Um Mark, what when when you're ready to, you know, take it easy, have some fun, and kind of zoom out from the crypto world, what what what do you do? What do you when you kind of step out of the the crypto echo chamber, what what do you like to do to to have some fun? >> Uh who has time for fun? No, to be honest [laughter] >> no. Uh, everything we're doing is fun. So, um, I I flip from one app to the other. Actually, what do I do in the evening? I scroll through the Kraken app or the Kraken Pro app and I try and find bugs. So, that's what keeps me busy uh 247 nowadays. And um uh but that's

that's totally cool. >> I love it. I love it. >> Awesome. A fellow Canadian, Marcus, pleasure to have you on the show today, man. Thank you for joining us. Uh congrats on the Crack app. Congrats on the success. It's really been awesome to have a renewed regulatory presence in the states allowing for, as they would call it, innovation exemptions. Um, and I think that Kraken is a perfect example of, you know, just sticking through the the craziness from the regimes and being able to just be nimble enough and survive. So, uh, it's it's full-on cockroach mode here in, uh, survival city in crypto while at the same time, it's a tokenization mania, Wolf of Wall Street's New York City. I'm not e selling uh vibes happening as well. So,

um you're at you're you're at the forefront, Mark. Um so, man, keep it up. >> Hey, thanks. Thanks for having me, guys. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you, Mark. We'll see you next time.