How to build and monetize an audience you own

Transcript

is it possible that web3 tokenization could be at the top of the subscriber hierarchy and could this really be a business model answer for Content creators and I ask myself that question I'm like I think it might be g m g m welcome to web3 Academy a place for entrepreneurs businesses and creators to explore and learn how to use web3 to transform your business and build thriving communities this is Jaybird and I'm here with Kyle reedhead what's going on friends today on the deer Spotlight we were talking with Joe

Paluzzi about the Creator economy and really the best ways to grow and monetize an audience which I mean is comes close to Jay and I as we run a marketing agency with creators and so it's nice to kind of dive down that rabbit hole but then we discussed some of the issues of building an audience in a business I guess on top of these like web 2 social platforms which let us down the rabbit hole of how is web3 going to fix all this and not necessarily the web 3 platforms but how is it going to allow creators to build different kinds of businesses that they actually own and are not kind of rented out on these web 2 social platforms and thankfully you know Joe has both launched a social token to his community and an nfts community so we were able to just pick

his brain on you know what to do and mainly what not to do when you're launching either of these tokens so it was an incredible episode for me yeah I think it's amazing Joe has such a wealth of knowledge because he's in the weeds he's doing this he's such a doer and so he really brought to the table the real experience of what he's experimented with and it's really allowed I mean allowed us I learned so much from this episode as I'm sure you did as well Kai and you know it comes from Joe's experience you know he's multiple serial entrepreneurs multiple startups most recently in 2021 he launched the Tilt which is a content creator Education website he also has a Content entrepreneur event called The Creator economy Expo he's also a

best-selling author of seven books including content in ink and epic content marketing which was named one of the most read business books by Fortune Magazine he's got two weekly podcasts I mean this is a guy who is just so deep in educating content creators and really trying to be at the Leading Edge of web3 and how it's gonna you know transform business models for cartoon creators so really a must listen episode for all content creators out there and so let's waste no more time and let you guys get into the episode but before we do let's take a quick second to hear from our sponsors the future of social media is here and that future lives in web 3 on top of lens protocol web 2 social platforms are broken and right for disruption you see the epicenter of

social media is the creators and yet they are the most neglected web 2 platforms like Facebook Tick Tock and Instagram are all essentially robbing creators of their worth creators are a new type of entrepreneur forming new types of businesses yet with web 2 platforms creators don't own their content to their profiles and that's their product in business instead they are tied to the platforms they choose to create on well just like how crypto is freeing us from Banks web3 is freeing us from these centralized platforms on lens protocol creators own their content own their profile and even their social graphing followers in the form of nfts this allows you to move freely from one social application to another with your content profile and followers moving along along with you lens protocol

enables self-sovereignty for your social graph and interoperability across the internet at Webster Academy we believe this is the future of Social and that's why we've partnered with lens to ensure that the path of social media is heading in the right direction visit lens.xyz to learn more today unlock protocol is the nft membership protocol for web 3. content subscriptions Community Access event tickets are all forms of memberships one of the most common business models for creators and entrepreneurs today building an nft membership opens many new possibilities for your members everything from tailored multi-platform experiences to the ability to sell an

unfinished subscription on secondary markets these are things just not possible in web 2. however in order for this business model to work creators need nfts which are time bound or have built-in recurring payments unlock protocol does this for your nfts better yet with a few simple steps you can create your own nft contract without code what WordPress has done for websites unlock protocol is doing for membership nfts if you're an nft Creator you can't rely on royalties as they are likely going to zero you need recurring Revenue you need unlocked at web3 Academy We Believe nft memberships are

the future of business and community and that's why we decided to build on unlock learn more at unlock dashprotocol.com today we have with us Joe Paluzzi Joe welcome to the show it is an honor I'm happy I can be on this wonderful Gathering that you two have so I'm just ready to talk about whatever we talked about web3 wherever you want to take this did I say your name right you were close you know you were close it's pulitzy but you were in the ballpark enough where I would not correct it if you did the hard ooh Uzi on the end I probably would have to say hey you know my ancestors are really upset

about that well my say your pronunciation sounded quite nice well my my best friend's wife's last name is Paluzzi so yeah it's a real real trick for me yeah she spells it exactly the same as you except she's got the U instead of the I so that's that is amazing we're probably related probably it's funny because I've been I'm so I'm from marsala Sicily where my ancestors are from so the Americanization of my name is pulitzy so that's how you pronounce it now when you go over to Sicily Marcella Sicily it's pulitzi and I that's the first time I heard anybody pronounce it correctly and I was like oh yeah yeah so anyways but thank you

well let's start as we always do with Joe's Rabbit Hole story Joe what first got you into the web 3 space yeah I saw I mean a little bit more background I mean I've been in content area for over 20 years I started you know tinkling tinkering around with this thing called content marketing got big into that with content marketing Institute company my wife and I started in 2007 and then we were lucky enough to have an exit in 2016. I stayed on at CMI until the end of 17 and took a full sabbatical year in 2018 so I was retired and then I wrote a novel a mystery thriller called the will to die and I

was going to be a novelist that was going to be my thing and then funny enough the launch party for the will to die was March 8th of 2020. which is just odd timing as we look back on it because a week later the world completely shut down as we all know and I started to think about other things that started to research other things and really how I started to make the pivot into wanting to know more about what was going on with web3 I was already into to bitcoin and Ethan I was into that but a lot of my friends who are on Instagram and Tick Tock and as we saw algorithm changes I started to get really worried about them

putting so much of their fortune and business model let's say with these social media platforms that didn't care about them at all and started to think I wonder if there's a better way well lo and behold at the same time where you've got these big social media platforms trying to persuade these creators to stay on these platforms and not really give anything you have you know tokenization social tokens and non-fungible tokens nfts come out and so this is at the end of 2020 where I really started to go down the rabbit hole as you say and figure this thing out because I was thinking okay well if you look at the top of what I would call the subscriber hierarchy and I've written about this for a long long time but in my most

recent book content Inc I've got a thing called the subscriber hierarchy it talks about fans followers subscribers and you do a list of most important and least important and down at the bottoms is Facebook Tick Tock and Instagram and you have no control and that's fine if you're on there but you've got to move them over to something you have a control over as a content creator and up at the top is paid free membership sites email newsletters print subscribers you know those types of things at the top and I'm thinking well is it possible that web3 tokenization could be at the top of the subscriber hierarchy and could this really be a business model answer for Content creators and I ask myself that question I'm like I think it

might be well what do you do when you know as an entrepreneur and as somebody who's curious started to figure out I need to get into this and that's where I went down and we could talk about all the things that we did with the social token and our nft program but and then I got into the Creator economy and I figured well if I'm going to do this I might as well start a business so I made my wife very disappointed that I started another business and the beginning of 2021 and it was really focused on we were going to be web 3 was going to be one of our core tenets it was about audience growth it's about Revenue generation it's about content operations and it is about web 3 integration and we've lived that for the last two years of our existence as a

company and we've learned a lot and whether we're in crypto bear Market or crypto Insanity with all the stuff that's going on I still do believe that there's something here for Content creators specifically and I'm pretty excited about it you know it's funny it's a very interesting similar story to Jay and I starting web3 Academy we were both like you know we have a marketing agency we work in the Creator economy world as well and we're like oh this web3 thing is probably going to disrupt a lot of this like let's go down the rabbit hole and learn it and if we're going to do that we might as well start a company so kind of the same thing but that was except no wife that's mad both of you she better not be watching this okay

it's all good I hope she is but okay so that was a great tease to like what the potential here is of web3 with creators but let's set a bit of foundation I think first greater economy and as you mentioned is a term I think we hear a lot but what does that really mean I still think it's new for a lot of people even though we all interact with creators all the time but I think for the most part people don't really quite grasp what that truly means and what is it so maybe in your view can you just walk us through what the Creator economy is uh I will do that I'll first tell you what the Creator economy is not and it's not all the big software players that are catering to creators which is what most people think when you see a oh

here's a chart of the Creator economy it's all this software and all these tech companies that are building things on behalf of creators and that's fine but the Creator economy is not Tick-Tock and patreon they're a part of it but the Creator economy starts with the Creator first and foremost now I look at it from the lens of content creation there's a lot of different creators right there's musicians there's artists they're very important they have their own business models I look at it from a Content creation standpoint which is the center of the Creator economy is the content creator trying to build a full-time Independent Business from their content creation that's what I would call a Content entrepreneur so that's the term

that I use a content creator who's trying to build a business is you know put match those together you have the content entrepreneur and they do that generally by focusing on one platform first and monetizing in multiple ways and it's not that you have to stay focused and we all have our different things we're doing I have multiple podcasts I've got an email newsletter I do video but generally you start one way is it a Blog is it on Tick Tock is it Instagram is it a podcast and then you build your audience there you do the best you can to control access to that audience through through we'll talk about web3 but generally traditionally it's been through an email newsletter for the last 20 years that was the best

way to do it where we weren't beholden to social media networks and then once you build what we call a minimum viable audience then you monetize it as many ways as you can you generally start with a low hanging fruit Revenue option which looks a lot like sponsorship and then you move into there's eight to ten other ways that you can generate that you can do events you can do affiliate programs you can sell your own products you can do consulting services and coaching and advisory all those things come together as little media company so if we were going to simplify it you have all these 50 million little media companies around the world and they're building an audience first and then once they build that audience

they're generating Revenue in multiple ways and then you have all these wonderful software Services out there and the social media platforms that are trying to help and in some cases I think negatively seduce content creators from using those platforms because without the content creators those platforms would be nothing that's their product as they go on I'm not I don't want to get too negative on social media platforms I have nothing against them I just think that there's too many people in the media out there that when they talk about Creator economy they list all these social media networks and all the service sub stack and patreon whatever and those are very important and we love them but don't forget the Creator the content creator that makes this thing go

around and why we're doing it in the first place so what is the size do you have any any numbers on the side you just mentioned 50 million was that a is that a rough estimate well yeah I mean if you look at I mean you've got signal fire that came out throughout that number 50 million which is a completely meaningless number so I'll take I'll throw out all kinds of meaningless numbers at you first of all content creator is a tough thing to say because my mom's a content creator my mom's on Facebook creating content is a product of the meta system if you will and she's just not monetizing it right so we're all content creators now who are content entrepreneurs who are trying to do this they're taking at least from

a hobby and serious about making this a full-time thing I've seen 25 million I've seen 50 million I've we have a whole research that we've done a ton of research on this over the past couple years at the tilt and we can't you can't get a number on this no nobody can so I would just say it's millions and it's probably stronger to look at you know that there's you know you've got I don't know how many 10 20 million on Tick Tock you probably got the same number on Instagram how many full-time podcasts you have going on you take that and you look at all of them and you've got 50 to 100 million out there that are trying to build something yeah Beyond just part

Beyond just marketing they're actually trying to build a business but I don't think it matters we know and I think we can say confidently the three of us that it's probably the fastest growing business on the planet yeah because it's the easiest to get and it's also the easiest to get into it's not easy to do it's easy to get into because all you need is a smartphone device and you can be a content creator and you're good to go and all the services that we have all those wonderful Services make it so that you can do this from anywhere which brings me to the point of the social media everyone hates on Facebook and Instagram and I understand why completely my only thing is I always tend to back them up a little bit which is kind of weird but only because without Instagram and Twitter and all

these things that are free that allow us to build an audience for free and then go and monetize it not on that platform elsewhere but like those platforms are what enable us to do this and become creators like you said it is easy to start it's not easy to do but it's easy to start it and that's because we have these big platforms so like I got to give a little bit of respect to face no I'm totally I think it's fair to say that they've given a Creator more choice on where to build their platforms because any but like when I started in the blogging game in the early to mid 2000s none of those things existed so the Creator economy if you look at it just from that step if you click a digital content creation and the economy around that it started probably in the

early 2000s yeah the dawn of the podcast you started with blogging blogging then you know they had Google you could findability on Google so you know when I started my blog in 2007 like real business blog and then you have people out there like Brian Clark who started copy blogger I mean these are the original ogs of the Creator economy if you will and then you had Twitter and Facebook and then Instagram and all these other things that help and you'll have more and more you know twitch with you know Amazon buying twitch and you've got Discord and you've got all kinds of wonderful tools so I guess I would give them credit but don't give them too much credit because you know if they weren't there we would still be doing blogging and podcasting

and all the other things and all the other new technology the reason why I don't want to say I hate on them but the reason why I have them down here at the bottom is the content entrepreneurs out there we often forget that we're building on this what I call rented land and you have no control and no say over those so what I always say is when you go out and if you're gonna build on Instagram and I've got a lot of friends that have built their platforms to Instagram and there are multiple millionaires right now and I'm so happy for them what I always say and this is how they approach it as well they're very smart they're like well tomorrow if Instagram changes the rules or kicks me off the platform I'm going to be okay because I have my business model set up

where I'm I have more control with as Mo and traditionally that's been as we said email so I said yeah as long as content entrepreneurs out there understand that then I'm fine with it because Tick Tock might be the best place to go YouTube might be the best place to build your platform because you already have an audience there it's much harder to do it on a blog or a podcast where you have nothing to start with but on those other platforms you do so I'm glad they exist I'm they've helped a lot of creators out there you just have to make sure that that is not your platform those are not your subscribers those are YouTubes those are metas those are tick tocks and so we just have to be careful all right I want to come back at some point to this owned versus rented

land analogy because I'm curious if you've now extended that to a web three but before we dive into that yeah I gotta go do that too so yeah I'm sure you do yeah exactly okay but let's talk to you mentioned you started new business in 2021 the Tilt and that is focused on helping these creators so just sure tell us a little bit give us some context about the Tilt what does the Tilt do and how are you helping creators and then maybe let's lead into a little bit of what are you seeing and what are the trends in the space sure yeah I mean our goal is to help content creators become content entrepreneurs and not being totally reliant on social media platforms we do that by sending out a newsletter every Tuesday and Friday and we done so since April of

2021 we've got 18 000 creators that read our our newsletter so we're super happy about that community and and then we're a learning community as well so we got I mean we'll talk about this as well so we've got 2300 that have our token tilt coin so they're like our super community and we get them involved in certain ways and we're very open about how we're trying to learn and do this thing at the same time we realized that there was also a need for a physical event because there wasn't really I mean there's lots of events in this area if you look at VidCon and then some of the other like patreons got their own event convert kids got their own event there's a lot of really good stuff going on but was there one for this independent serious

content creator and that's why we created Creator economy Expo we launched the first one in May of 22 in Phoenix and it went really well and so the next one will be May of 23 in Cleveland Ohio and which you know you all will be involved in that we're very excited about that so so yeah we're trying to figure out we want to be useful and needed and we thought that is there a place where somebody could get here's the news and distill it for me and give me a take on how to use all this news and then give me one or two really good educational actionable things that I can do as a content creator Who Wants To Be A content entrepreneur and so that's what we've been doing since then and so far so good what are you seeing you know it's been a year and a half now since

you started the newsletter that's what that's what's 600 almost a thousand newsletters that you would have done at this point what are the trends what stands out as to where we're at today what's interesting is that there's this everywhere and including web three that we there there's this move to maybe why we're getting a little bit more attention than we deserve of I'm scared about what the social media platforms can do Tick Tock of course is in the news right now because you've got lawmakers and politicians talking about that and they're concerned about the you know privacy and security because it's a Chinese owned company but that is just one small thing it's the fact that you have a whole group of millions of people

building our livelihood on a platform that can change the rules at any moment so that's where we come in and we say hey absolutely use social media but protect yourselves and how can you protect yourself how can you build a business model off the platform it's almost like you're separating it from content creators and content entrepreneurs into influencer marketing so when somebody comes to us like for example we had somebody reach out the other day they have they were an influencer marketing agency and they came and they said hey can we sponsor Creator economy Expo and we're like well not really your peeps like you're looking at Instagram stars and Tick Tock stars and YouTube stars and like we have people that use those tools but they're not trying to build their sole Revenue Source from that platform

right they're actually trying to leverage that platform and use that platform to build a full-scale media business and so that's where I think you're finally getting individuals who create content that are understanding that you don't have to be totally beholden to a platform you know Kyle as you said we should absolutely be thankful for the opportunities we have but you don't build your business model on that platform just like you don't want to control your distribution this is back in you know when I used to sell stuff on eBay like if eBay didn't exist I would have no like when I was selling sports collectibles on eBay in the late 90s if eBay didn't exist I would have no business model right so you have to

okay I can start there but then what do I move how do I move that Distribution off to somewhere else so that's been a big one the other one currently which is concerning but good at the same time you had in 21 you had so much Funny Money blown into the Creator Academy into web 3 and total Creator economy it looked a lot like 2001 to me I don't know if you do remember 2001 but it really looked like geocities and NASDAQ going up like crazy about like it was the.com boom era and I was like this is not going to be pretty you could see it coming because the people weren't making really good decisions they were just throwing VC money around and whatever oh hey your targeting Creator economy good we're

gonna throw you more money well that has since dried up because that money is going because being held by other people or it's been lost so you're seeing this is a really good time for everyone in the industry to get serious about their projects and they really hunker down we're in a recession area whether we're in a session or not you could argue but we're in a recessionary environment where I think it's the best time for a content creator to grow a business I was lucky enough and it was horrifying when we started content marketing Institute in 2007 we went right into 0809 I thought oh my God could you have picked a worse time to build a business and when you're going through it it absolutely feels like it's the worst time but then 2010 happens and I'm like

that was the best thing that ever happened because while you as a content creator are building everyone else who would with with growth dollars would start throwing money at a thing like content marketing back then nobody else was because they were all batting down the hatches and say okay we've got a we're in survival mode and you're focusing on this little area as a content creator that's where we are right now we were the only one focusing on it and when we came out of it in 2010-11 we were there to capture all the spoils if you will and that's where I think a lot of content creators are so that's my motivational message for any content creator is I know it's tough there's not as many sponsorship dollars out there as this was there's not as much paid discretionary income that your audience might be able to buy but this

is your time to really build a loyal and trusting audience become the leading expert in your industry and then when it sort of gets a little bit better out there you'll be the first one to take advantage of those opportunities one great advice and thank you for that and then I think a great kind of way to explain what a Creator is you know you have the influencers which is not really necessarily trying to educate or be an expert in there they're more just like a personality I guess and they monetize via on the platform with let's say sponsorships or whatever Creator economy is really those who are trying to educate or be an expert in a certain area and they're moving people off and off of these social platforms and trying to build businesses around that audience I guess and then I guess the other side

of it is you also have just like normal businesses that are also content creators right you have like Nike let's say an Adidas and all these other companies that like they also need to create content so everyone probably listen to this podcast is some form of content creator if they are building in in web 3 which many are and many are creators as well and I'm just curious on your advice of if you're looking to build an audience let's say on these platforms is there anything you're noticing now that you have to do or you shouldn't be doing or just any advice into maybe you have a framework or something into building an audience yeah funny enough yes we do have we have a framework I'll go a little bit into it but you mentioned the two pods if you will a Creator economy which are

individuals small companies and then you have the Nikes of the world which are content marketing so that's the Red Bull media houses of the world the Procter and gambles that have started into this so what's funny about it is that the models are the same when I go into and I've had the I've been blessed to go into multiple billion dollar companies and do content audits and I'll be the content guy right I'm the content guy I come in and I'll look at all they're doing we do a lot of interviews and then they're you know get back to the table with the marketing folks and they're like okay what stuff should we do should we launch something should we do a podcast and my whole list is okay here's the seven things you have to stop doing so basically when you go into these

companies what you find and you'll if you look at content marketing Institute research the average mid-sized Enterprise companies does create certain distributes their content in 13 to 16 different ways so they're on Twitter and Facebook and Linkedin and they're doing webinars and events and research and all the stuff they're doing all the things well what happens is they become mediocre at best at all those things and they're not master of any one thing if you're not if you're not focused on one of those platforms and really learning it really well and distributing a consistent message through that you'll never build an audience so basically they do a lot of campaigns a lot of content stuff and a lot of creators do that as well so that's my advice is you have to start killing some things starting out a young if you will not the

age but the starting point of being a content creator if you're young if you're just starting this thing you have to resist wanting to do all those things because they'll say oh okay I'm gonna do Instagram I'm gonna do Tick Tock and I'm gonna do YouTube and I'm doing all these things at the same time no you're not no you pick one and you might and you could test it first absolutely you might not know which one's the right one so you can absolutely test it might take you six to nine months but figure out where that home base is going to be and then you put more energy into that than anything else and what we see working really well is one home platform and email so it's YouTube and email Tick Tock and email Instagram and email podcast and email is sort of the thing that works

best and then once you build that minimum viable audience or whatever that is I mean so if you might ask what's the minimum viable audience it's that number of audience subscribers that you can get to start to monetize and in my case in our case at the Tilt it was 10 000 email subscribers we felt that was a strong number for somebody that's a YouTuber it might be 50 000 subscribers whatever that number is that you think then before you go out and really monetize you put that in there and then once you get to that level then you can ultimately diversify into different things I'll give you an example so we started as just a Blog for Content marketing Institute we did a Blog in our research project for three years at CMI then we added our email which we'd have done it sooner we added

our email news so we have a Blog an email with a side research project we're doing that four years that's all we're doing then we added a podcast then we added an in-person event content marketing world then we added a magazine Chief content officer then you add these things every nine to 12 months and you do that because the research will tell you and if you go in and you talk to these big companies that's what we find is you're like call like an octopus of content love if you will so the more content you have that they're subscribed to you can wrap them up and you love them and they love you they trust you and then they end up buying anything from you and we found in most cases the magic number is three if they're subscribed to three things that you do

they're like an audience member for Life they're part of your community they'll buy anything so ultimately that's why you diversify but you can't diversify right away so if you look at Red Bull media house how did Rebel media help they do all the things right sure they do now but they started as just a print magazine New York Times what they do all the things they start at just the newspaper Huffington Post they do like 400 500 different blogs right yes but they started to one block log to one audience so then we diversify out so that would be my recommendation is focus on what is that core platform build that out and then you can diversify I love that focus on your Niche right like find your Niche and just give as

much value as you possibly can to that niche in one form right or another and really nail that and once you nail that then you can start to you know move on to others so we've seen the same thing as well so let's say you grow an audience right and you have this audience it's on you know Instagram it's on Twitter you know wherever that is what is your sort of framework or idea I mean it sounds like it's go email or at least it was that maybe web3 is beginning to change that but just talk us through your mindset or maybe your Frameworks of once you have an audience and you've kind of built up this this following you know where are you going next to start monetizing and what does that look like yeah so and we've talked enough about it and we can probably get

in a little bit of the web three because that's the reason I got into this in the first place is all right I've got all these other things that I'm doing on these social platforms that I can't control my business how can I best control the business well the portability functionality quality ownership of email has been the answer for the last 20 years so when we lost the print Universe we were in where print subscribers could opt in and we got all the data through print well now we're not doing print as much or at all and most people and now we're going into digital okay where do we have that control we have that control through email subscribers and you have that sort of through a paid or a free membership site so that's the very top of the subscriber hierarchy so

if it's email subscribers what does that mean that means you have to have a remarkable consistent email experience which is easier to say a sub the dud because when I go back to those audits I talk to you about most of the time their emails were horrible they say oh what's your open rate oh we get three to five percent open rate I'm like you are spamming them if you you need to have one like industry yeah it's like you need to be 20 25 30 at least from an open rate so that you know that this is some valuable thing and it has to be consistent you can't just send it out whenever you want to and my friend Andrew Davis always said you're setting an appointment you want your audience to set an appointment with

your content what is that is it Friday morning is it six is it Wednesdays at two whatever it doesn't really matter it just makes you make sure that you're doing that I'm like okay well that's it you could grow that into a membership site that's whatever now you really have a business model that you can grow off because once you have an email database you can go into many different things you could launch events you can do webinars you can do affiliate programs you can do lots of different things that you're not beholding to the social media platform and then you get into the hypothesis which I still think we're at that testing phase but I'm really pushing hard that is the token the top of the subscriber hierarchy or could it be now there's a trade-off there because I

don't necessarily have the name or the email address of the person who mints or is given the token and by the way we'll talk about the different kinds of tokens whenever you want to but I'm just saying token in general fungible token non-fungible token okay so we don't have that but they have this belief that they're sharing in the rewards with you which is amazing and has never happened before because if I sell a membership program right now and then I kill that membership program my what does my audience get who bought that membership nothing they get there's no control over that at all so you're giving a little bit of

control hopefully to the Token holder and hopefully if the if you trust the owner of the contract the token contract then there's something there that will last and there's good ways and bad ways and I've learned some of the bad ways to do it we could talk about those so that was the thought is could tokenization be the answer to a Content Creator's viability so when we got into this it's the Tilt I said we're all in so let's go with tillcoin let's go ahead and we'll do a social token fungible token so basically like it's a dollar Bitcoin not like an individual unique smart contract like you'd have with an nft and I said okay well we have to make it usable how do we

make it usable well if you have a certain amount of tokens you get certain things like if you have five tilt coin you get access to original pieces of research that will only give to those people that have that okay that's good we do that if you have 20 you're in our tilt VIP group so you get access to me all the time and with ongoing questions and I'll answer any of your questions you have we can set up appointments just trying to make it very Hands-On very VIP oriented great do those things well can you use the currency I want to use it want to treat it as our own economy can we do that well let's see so we set it up where and we integrated with our Shopify account where if you wanted to buy one of our t-shirts on our merch site you can do so

with just till coin great like that I want to buy membership I want to buy a training so we have a Content entrepreneur training program it costs like 300 bucks when we launched this thing last year well what if I wanted to use tilt coin so yes we absolutely set it up so you could buy and use those things and it actually works really well but the reason why I love it more than anything else and this is something I think you have to go through before you can actually believe it is the people that own and hold tilt coin are the best members of our community they're the most rabid over what we're doing they're the ones that trust us the most and they're the ones that share and refer us to everyone else more than any

so when you sign up for the Tilt newsletter you get a little thing at the bottom and say oh hey if you do this process you get tilt coin we'll send you five dollars value of tillcoin and and then if you refer people will give you more saltcoin for referring so most of our new subscribers come from people that have already held tilt coins so it's the best rewards and loyalty program that I could have absolutely thought about and I didn't even know that was a thing so that's how we started using this whole thing and I feel that I've got some downsides that I could talk about in a second but I feel we we were really close and we are really close to figuring out a model that works for the token holder as well as for the

content creator and this is so early this is like Alta Vista you know so early in the process here this is Netscape 1.0 trying to figure out the use case as we're building the airplane as we're in the air we're absolutely at that point but so far I think we're on to something and it's that last Point that's the most important these community members I know our top 200 holders personally almost we've got a lot of us have become friends there they end up speaking at the event they come to Creator economy Expo there's something here where people feel more of a connection that they would any other way it's more than just having an email subscription it's more than just having a membership they actually feel part of the business that

we're trying to build together and they actually do feel like we're building it together it's very interesting and I love the experimentation with tokenizing a community via fungible tokens there's a lot more people doing this with nfts in there and I know you've done an nft route as well so I want to I want to dive into that after I'm curious though the terms of these fungible tokens is there other than access to certain things is there like upside to these people do they want to hold this because they feel like the these tokens can appreciate in price and because they're a part of the like it's like an equity play or is that not the route that you've taken here and it's more just access Play because I know there are many ways you can do it I'm just curious how you've laid it up at first it

probably was and we have to actually put that down wherever we can because whenever if you say that you buy till coin and you can make money big No-No and that's yeah Financial advice I would never say anything like that I've never said anything like that the value of tiltcoin has gone up and down as per the price of the rally token and we can talk about that a little bit if you want to that's a real negative I wish if we started it was just a token and it had no monetary value to it if we did not set a monetary value to tilt coin I think we'd be much more than would have been much more successful with it the fact that we put that on there we did get some speculators in there right and we I think we created an artificial

expectation that people could buy it like they can buy stock which is not a thing and and so that was a big problem so one of the issues that we went for we were on the rally Network so tillcoin is part of the rally Network so it's not truly decentralized it's centralized decentralized and this is one of the issues that we had I decided I looked at many different options at the end of 2020 to see what we were going to do and I wanted it whatever was easiest for somebody to actually go through the process and get the token well rally was a very simple Web 2.0 system you only had to sign up through your email and you could get that you could get an account

and we could integrate it fairly easily with some tools online so that people could integrate it with a referral system everything was great we integrated with Discord everything was fantastic but you were using Rally's rules it would rally was a separate Company rally even though that we were as rally of token was a side chain of eth and tiltcoin is a side chain of rally which is all kinds of trouble because we don't own the contract and that's what I've really learned and that's the biggest thing I would tell people if you're going to do this again there's ways to launch the social token program that you can own your contract and there's lots of really good organizations that will help you do that if I had to do it over again I probably would even though we have 2300 token

holders right now a tilt coin it's been very successful for us it's still successful even though rally has made some decisions they got hit with the crypto downfall like with everyone else they've really really cut back rally token went from 1.20 to a penny and since we're stuck on that until coin went from in dollars again just showing you where it's been we were at sixty four dollars a coin and now we're two dollars now we have more token holders than we've ever had before if it was just by price and the Tilt coin we should be in an all-time high but we're not because we're dragged down by the price of rally again I wish we didn't have that conversation a price it was unnecessary to have so as we stay on rally and go through this or as we alter to another

token which we're we're looking at all the options right now to see what makes the most sense to migrate token holders over where they really do own something because that's right now it's artificial do they really own that no they don't I don't own the token if I can't control the other token as the Creator then they can there's it's all web 2.1 fake decentralized stuff that's right oh okay so that's what I learned and I wish I had to do that so now we know but we've got a great community that we've built off of that belief and trust and we don't want to let that trust go so we're not going to and we're going to and we keep them updated and I've been posting here's what I'm thinking we're figuring

this out we're not going to make any rash decisions and that's where we're at right now so I believe there's something here because this is the most powerful community that we've I've ever seen built because I think of this idea of tokenization so we have to really go out and do it and build it as close to web3 as we possibly we can one of the things that I continue to just wrestle in my head when you're going to tokenize a community is the how do you separate like launching products and actually charging for them so you can make real money and not rely on a token not real money sorry but Fiat money let's say you know what I mean which is what a lot of businesses run on but so how do you decide the Dynamics of well I'm gonna sell products and just

charge in normal currency slash I'm gonna give away products if you hold x amount of my currency right because I just wonder how that becomes a sustainable thing how you can generate revenues from that long term like is that something you've thought about and if there's any advice you can give them that would be yes I've thought a ton about it because we've tried all the different models you know how if you're only into Bitcoin they call you a Bitcoin maximalist you can't go in being a token maximalist and make money now now could that happen in the future I think it is possible but I think that you have to have a hybrid approach right now with your business model and the way that I would do that is if you're setting up a social token system in some way you do it for Access

not for products like if you do it and say and then you set up discount rates so let's say you have your VIP level and if you have 100 tokens you get 50 off of XYZ product great you're just setting up a discounting system it's a reward loyalty system nothing wrong with that but you sell your products for Fiat right because you have to eat you have to support your people and that's where and we took a little bit of a bath on a lot of the stuff if you want the truth of it for when we when we set it up and people could get all this stuff with the token as the price of the token came down it almost cost them I mean we were giving away stuff right and I don't regret it because we learned a really

good lesson if we would have just kept the hey you're top level you get 25 off or 50 off of our products whatever that's fine still I mean right now if you hold on some people hold a lot of tilt coin because the value has changed so much well you can go in and probably get 20 t-shirts for nothing right now because we still have it set up where you can use your tilt coin for Merch we probably should have that I should talk to my team and say we probably should take that down but I had somebody use I don't know I had a thousand a thousand tilt coin and they bought all kites I bought a hoodie and it's like great but we have to pay for that and it's fine I'm learning we're learning a really good lesson so that's what I would say access so the

tokens for Access and what different levels did can you create to give that token holder access to experiences and then you have your product set over here that's separate integrated where you can and discounting would make the most sense to me you're tokenizing your community not your products that's I think the key thing right and the way your tokenizing community is almost through the rewards program a reputation a social graph type thing within your community the more you engage or as you said you know ask other people to join or the more you help the community the better access you get right the more tilt you get and the more access you get the more discounts you get all that kind of stuff yeah that's incredible I love it Jay do you have any other questions

on these so if you do it without let's say you can go back Joe and you did it without a price on the token you never give it monetary value because one of the ways that people can get tilt right now is by just going to buy it so does that does that create problems if we remove that method of joining a community if the only and I guess in that case the only way to get the token would be by earning it through actions that you reward them for you would it would through Behavior they would you would referrals you show up I mean Brian fanzo at nft 365 has got great ways to do it if you listen to X

number podcasts you get HD ADHD tokens which is his social token he's created a whole different ways it all built on Behavior because then when you do that you really make it a Loyalty Rewards program and you take the monetization out of it but if we're talking about real web 3 and if there's the opportunity to really for a Creator to build their own economy and profit from that economy you it probably the token probably has to have a value definitely right because then the Creator would have to exchange some of that yeah for Fiat dollars so that they can pay for their expenses that was the original thought the

original thinking the problem is when you're built on somebody else's platform it doesn't work I might not feel the same way Jay unless it was let's say it was I started on my own our own contract and we started at 10 cents or a dollar and now it's a dollar ten or whatever probably wouldn't have been so bad it's just that you can't take a shock to the system where two months you go from sixty four dollars to two dollars your creator account your own economy can't work so that's where I'm really going to the other side and take the price out I would like to see and then you'd ever get the questions about any of the regulatory issues any of the or is this a stock am I buying into ownership those things come out because it really is a rewards loyalty play but as you said a

lot of people are in it because they want to be part of this thing they actually want to own something so maybe in six months or a year would we get back and we talk about this thing again and we're on a different system maybe I'll think differently about it because we have a more stable currency that we're using to give some context Joe I'm pretty sure what happened with rally is they were also giving rally token rewards for those who would interact with your community and the others unrally and I think they turned off rally Rewards or something like that and and so that's why your currency has taken such a big hit because it was I guess inflated not inflated but like it was relying a lot on the rally token as well and so it probably was over what it should have been whereas if you're not

relying on another token and you do provide liquidity to your token it kind of goes up and down based on the value that your community brings to its members and to you know the utility of that token itself and unfortunately you kind of just got caught up in what was going on with rally I guess yeah and rally provides the treasury right they provide the liquidity which would work great because as a Creator you're like oh great I could just go ahead and tap in and they wanted to do this with us so if we were to move it off and let's say we were going to build a tokenization system on eth or whatever the case is wherever the contract would be we would have to create our own treasury to do that so I as the Creator would have to fund 10 20 30 000 and put that in there

for a number of eth so that if somebody wanted to sell you know we would have enough to back that up and a lot of creators don't necessarily want to do that so that's why you see 99.9 percent of creators out there dabbling in web 3 there are nfts it's very hard I mean sure you've talked that you were saying at the beginning you probably have a number of nft examples not many social token examples um it's a perfect transition in nfts this is something that we have written a lot about we've talked a lot about is tokenizing your community via nfts we actually haven't touched a lot on the social token side but that's why I was excited to to get your experience on it so first of all thanks for being the leader and and experimenting I know not everything has gone well but I'm sure

there's one through the door gets bloody we're here to prove it no it's been a great you know if somebody asked me I would say it's absolutely been a great success I don't regret anything but we've so we've learned a lot we will write the next book all about it well I would say one of the things I'm very grateful for after hearing what you said is we tokenized well our community tokenized themselves we were of course part of it but they tokenized themselves but we did it valuously so there is no liquidity to that token and so there is no speculators involved and it's just been like we need to build we need to create value so that we can eventually provide liquidity and I guess it's a I mean in 2020 and 2021 it was so easy to just like launch a token and there'll be

all this liquidity because everyone was slinging money now obviously times have changed and so I'm very grateful that we've done it in a valueless way to start because it's we've been able to learn without wasting thirty thousand dollars or whatever it was to provide that liquidity so okay let's talk on the nft side of things and I'm interested to hear the difference of why just based off you've done both of these why would someone use an nft versus a fungible token with their Community is there any kind of clear reasons why you've kind of noticed since you've been building both I think from a rewards loyalty standpoint if you really do feel like you want to build your own economy with a currency that I mean the choice of social tokens in my opinion right I absolutely Phil first of all what you can do with the with the fungible token

and the numbers that you can give out and basically it's all the same everything's just like the dollar or the Bitcoin or whatever the case is you can build in different access levels that is not as feasible to do in my opinion with an nft if you look at nft non-fungible token that everyone could be unique and different and you're building a different utility from that than you are so if it was a reward I mean I'm sure you've had people on the show that that have used it as rewards loyalty you can create different gating and systems and whatever and that's fine to do that with an nft I just haven't done it that way when we looked at it we were all in on social tokens and then I heard Gary vaynerchuk talk about his V friends program

and that if you bought uh V friends nft you would get three-year access to vcon his event I'm an event producer I've been an event producer for 20 years physical events this is what I do and I'm like three years why only three years what's wrong with it it's like are you scared do you wanna I don't understand why you did it because you you limit the downside if there ever is an issue because it's only three years but my concern was if you're trying to create something that people can own value through this nft you're limiting the value right away only three years I'm like that's terrible so I'm like okay well let's try it experiment so we launched Creator Academy Expo and I'm

like let's just do it limit it to a hundred and say I want to do and I call them never ending tickets they call them Nets and ETS can you speak with somebody get an net and they get lifetime access for as long as the event is going now it's tough to say that because it's a it's an inaugural event like people don't know if we're gonna last well good news is we're on year two but that was the whole idea this was you know a funding mechanism we were a new event and we sold like 40. for the first event and I have a really good suspicion that now we've got an ongoing event people believe that and we set them at a higher price and because we set them at one eighth and at the time when we said them I mean it was

four thousand dollars it was in the at the top uh now it's you know it's relatively cheap with these at uh 1300 bucks so it's funny you can go in and you can buy an all-access ticket for a thousand dollars or you could buy an all-access never-ending ticket at a t for thirteen hundred so anyways we tested that out and the first year worked really well we had a separate meeting for all the net holders it was great we did round tables if so it's basically Invitation Only exclusive experiences this year we're going to do the same thing we're going to do like an all-you-can drink type event and people get together we could do a little bit of Celebration our net holders got more involved in the event some of them got to be on the main stage and do introductions there's a few of the Nets

that have very rare properties like there's one you could do a co-creation project with me for my content standpoint there's another one where you can actually introduce our closing keynote speaker that one I think hasn't gone yet so there's some of those things that are out there and so that's what we were trying to experiment with could you create that I and so I've been prognosticating for a long time that I believe the future of events and event ticketing will be nfts definitely now we probably went to a little bit of an extreme but I think in the future you're going to see that happen where I mean instead of the brown Cleveland Browns my team working through SeatGeek or Ticketmaster why couldn't I work directly with YouTube if you wanted to sell and I could take the whole middle

layer out of that equation so that ultimately I think that's what's going to happen but then you can create all sorts of different things that happen in the smart contract that you can't do with just a regular digital ticket so that's kind of that was our experience in it and that's worked really well so hopefully you know by this time next year we'll sell them out we'll create a really amazing group of people and so it's a different kind of loyalty it's around an event and I'm thinking okay well that was our Genesis one project could there be a Genesis 2 project I think there will be and we're thinking about what that would be but from an overall like if you're a Creator and you're listening to me talk about social tokens versus nfts launching the

nfts a thousand times easier because that social token it's every day I mean you are when you make a decision to a social token it is not like a project I know a lot of nfts can be a project uh this is not that you know it's all the time nft we can just do we can just associate it with this one time a year event and have that be a special unique experiences for those people but the challenge with the nft route is sustainable revenue and so I've just got to ask in your case so there's a hundred of these nfts these sold that's the net I love that you gave it a like a

protocol standard like me is it an ERC number yet if you put it through ethereum for a proposal just for context how big is the event outside of oh wait so we had 400 people at the event okay and so of those 410 were never-ending ticket holders okay and so so how do you how do you monetize or do you maybe just not need to like how do you think about if you're going to give these people access in perpetuity but they only paid once and I mean we all assume creative royalties are going to zero so you're not really unless you really think you have a creative royalty Revenue stream is there a revenue stream for these 100 people are you just saying we don't need

a revenue stream for that so think so I I absolutely think about it like a Kickstarter program more than anything else it's different now because the price of eat this come down so much but at the time if you do the math and you said okay we sold 30 or so of these things at the top of the market I mean it was a hundred and twenty thousand dollars that we generated immediately unfortunately it's not that I didn't cash out or anything so it is The Ether that it's in so it that you know that's smart or bad business depending on how you look at it this is what it is but from that standpoint if we didn't have this crypto bear Market we were going into I worked really really well because when I did

the math I'm like oh okay so and when we launched this program I think youth was a 42 or 4300. so okay well 100 of these things I mean you're look you're talking about 400 000 I don't need to resell I've got the hundred people that have totally bought in okay well the floor falls through and you know we're at where we're at but still it's regardless it was a good chunk of Revenue still is and still coming in there and I'm using it now as oh these are the True Believers they're the greatest piece of research and community that we could put together because they're investing long term in this thing and and if and you know that's I probably should have just said it in dollars that's what I was going to say right if

I would have said it in dollars then people could and by the way that was a really good learning because most of our community didn't have any idea what was going on when it comes to you know most of it didn't have a digital wallet and then I'm asking to know what to do we didn't set up a credit card payment button until after the first event and I would say half of the net holders that we set up I walked them through step by step well I was just gonna ask because your audience is not web3 native right A lot of people that we bring on the podcast is their web 3 native people they have you know what I mean and their marketing Two web three people whereas your marketing to just your normal I mean they're obviously into the tech scene and the social scene and all that

if they're creating businesses on you know online but they're not necessarily web three and so I'm just curious what that experience was like did they get it when you launched the like hey I'm gonna launch these tokens like let's say the social token side did they understand what was going on I mean it's somewhat relatable we all have points with our credit cards and Air Miles and then also when you did the nft thing like what was that like what was your community did they ask a lot of questions did they get it or just what was your experience well I mean part of our core mission is to educate on web3 so we're educating ongoing so they're not completely foreign to it they just didn't start anything yet they were just learning about it so they're curious more than anything else where we

probably failed is I felt like oh well if they're gonna do it they better get a wallet let's teach them how to get a wall instead of just saying it's okay use your credit card use however you need to do it because I didn't realize it you just need to get them started and once they get started it doesn't matter how they start right once they get they don't have to go out and absolutely have to do the whole thing and fund it with eat themselves I mean you guys know right when you start oh I gotta get the wallet then how do I fund it with eth and then you find out that a lot of the banks that you work with or coinbase or whatever it's very hard to transfer money it's like and then some banks won't even do it at all right it's like

how do I fund this thing and then they just gave up so we had I had a lot of people come and say hey I was going to buy a never-ending ticket but I did I got lost I couldn't do it I'm like oh that was shame on us for not just making it easy so if you to anybody out there you have to prepare to create all the educational materials up front and don't force them into doing it exactly the way you think you should be doing it because you're web3 native like just do whatever the lowest hanging fruit is the easiest and get them involved and help them get their digital wall that's why I loved rally right so easy it's like setting up a Facebook account everything's easy you get that well we know the downside to that now but in this case yeah I would

have set that up for first and foremost and that's where like garyvee did a great job because if you go to his site you'll see right now set up credit card buy your V friends with a credit card we didn't do that so Joe I really appreciate this this seems like all the things you've talked a lot about all the things not to do and I think that's so important and so I just want to like say I really appreciate you coming in and explaining that and giving that kind of advice because that's exactly what everyone needs to hear who's going to get into the space so I really appreciate that I think my one big takeaway Jay before I pass off to you and I know we then need to wrap up is if you're going to tokenize your community social tokens is the way to go if you're

going to tokenize your products nfts are the way to go that's kind of what I got from this but yeah very interesting jail yeah that's it I never thought about that workout but I think that's a good way to look at it and and to build on that if you're going to tokenize your product don't tokenize all your products like in your case it's so interesting you gave away 100 lifetime passes but you can sell way more than that so you still have Revenue every year and think about it more I love your think about it as Kickstarter right the reason you use an nft is to get Revenue more Revenue now which you need now and some businesses need that to get going and then don't count on it

being the necessarily the lifetime Revenue that you're going to need to be able to sustain that's a great way to put it Jay I talked to somebody recently who hasn't gotten into nfts and they had a paid membership model and they're like should I tokenize my membership model I said no you are generating Revenue right now from here there's nothing wrong with it but if you'd like a super ultra VIP membership model and you want to test out an nft with that there do that so don't put your current Revenue formula at risk if it's working and just say oh because we were there right last year everyone was there it's like oh I gotta move everything over everything's got to be took organized well thank goodness we all came to our realizations no it

doesn't we're still at baby steps here let's figure out some things that we can so that's where we're at so like if I'm working with the team and figure out okay well what's the next test project we want to run we would not run over with a steamroller our current products that are selling we would create something different as a testing that's a unique experience that we can offer that some people that really believe in us would want to be a part of so and that's where you have it's a small group of people that want a super large experience and that's why I like the limited I always love limited inventory like I have a 10K I don't understand the world of the 10K project that's just way too many for me like I

can't even get around a thousand like I'm almost like what proof did what Kevin Rose did at proof with I think it's just a thousand that's more manageable to me I could see like Kevin could know though of those people right 100 maybe better 500 better so start smaller well and that was a three year pass proof another instance of time bound right yeah because once that's done I mean gets all the money off of that and then whenever the royalties start or stop or whatever he's got those and then as you go on you can start something else proof two proof three proof four so so you can't start a new one well and that's what we've actually talked a lot about is and maybe that is the way to think about nfts and I know we got to wrap up so I'm just getting

excited but it's either got to be time-bound because then you're not so if you do your whole product then you got to time bound it because then you're not stuck with oh we don't have any recurring Revenue down the line yeah or subscription nfts or exactly or subscription which I would consider a form of time bound it's like a recurring time bound right or it's got to be limited collection and it's only a portion of your customer and portion of your Revenue yeah that's right absolutely yeah I would think about I would think about it more for Content creators listening to this like a Tony Robbins exclusive event right what's your exclusive content experience that you know you can price at a higher level that only a certain percentage of your audience would want to go to how do

you monetize that so you have your stuff for the masses for most Europe but what is that small content experience that you can create that's where I think that there's something there right so it's a premium I think nfts right now should be a premium product that you should look at not something small I love that love it okay I'm going to jump to a speed round unless Kai you got any questions oh actually before we go to the speed round I wanted Joe I want to give you a chance to give a shill for the Tilt for Crater economy Expo I know we've mentioned them but just tell people where they can find you yeah if you're into yeah absolutely if you're into all this stuff and we talk about web 3 as well and how to integrate it as a content creator the tilt.com sign up

for our newsletter if you don't like it you can unsubscribe really easily and we don't brought badgery about it but I think you'll find Value if you like this whole conversation and then our in-person event we actually try to get these content creators in person who are expecting 500 Plus in Cleveland Ohio May 1st to 3rd go to CeX dot events CeX dot events and you can sign up and check it out and there's different levels to get involved from inexpensive to our never-ending ticket if you wish to go down there if we've still got 40 of those left so we'll see which is actually at a great deal is funny it's we haven't really been promoting it for a while with crypto going and we just sold two in the last two days so I'm like oh maybe maybe we're starting to maybe we're starting

to maybe we hit a bottom and for the listeners I just found out yesterday that I will be speaking at the at the conference so definitely come out I will be there and I'd love to see you guys all there and get to know all you listeners so make sure to check out this event it's gonna be awesome in Cleveland I'm excited we'll have time both for the Tilt and CeX links in the show notes for anyone who wants to check those out before we let you go Joe we'd love to just ask you a couple more personal fun questions a little speed round that we like to do at the end okay first question what's a token could be non-fungible or fungible that you'll never sell I I own a crypto Punk that I probably would not sell nice nice yeah

especially not right now I'm way to go but I want to give it to my kids oh by the way completely laugh at me like they think that web3 is the stupidest thing ever they're 19. are they getting that weird are they what and they're 19 and 21. yeah they think it's all I mean they think they're heavy on Twitch and the whole thing in Discord they think it's they think it's all a Ponzi scheme I mean we've been shown that some of it is so yeah it's probably good we went through this little time period here okay something you've purchased recently for under 100 that brings you Joy does not have to be a digital product

oh under a hundred dollars ramen noodles I mean like like is this a is that I've had some really good meals oh like I went to see Hamilton for less than 100 bucks uh as you can see behind me I'm a big lin-manuel Miranda fan Love In the Heights is my favorite musical the one that he did before Hamilton so Hamilton tickets well always a good value nice cool okay last question if you had a billboard that one billion people were going to see what would you write on it forgive your friends and loved ones like it would probably be something that would make the world a better place like or or you know something like follow your dream now or set your goal and do

it or life is short or something that just gets people going and just treating people better I think that's where I feel optimistic coming out of the last two years I think people want to treat other people better I think we're more in it for positive human experiences than ever before and that's where you know that's where I'd like to put a lot of our time we have a non-profit I'm going to tell you about called orange effect foundation and we provide speech therapy services and Technology to uh mostly autistic children who can't afford those Services those are the types of things I want people to focus on there's a lot of good people a lot of people that are giving and we get so bogged down in the

negativity and even though I might believe different things politically than someone else I think we've forgot that we're human beings and we're all we all got it rough right we're all going through stuff and if we could just settle down like maybe it would say you know the person in the car next to you is having a bad day too [Laughter] everything's gonna be okay we'll all make this thing go together so that was a really long answer it's like that's a big it's the longest building see you'll never have me back out here like oh this is the longest show we've ever done don't ask Joe that question again

well you nailed it on the spot appreciate the positivity and the the optimistic outlook on the world we need can never have enough of that so thanks for sharing that it's a really nice cherry on the top of what has been a fabulous episode thanks so much for joining us Joe it's been just an absolute treat and looking forward to keeping in touch with both of you so this is it's fun that you know we all found each other and we're trying to educate you know it's so important we're at such a critical time right now and I feel so optimistic about the business model of creators out there so there's so much more that needs to be done totally agree couldn't agree more all right well thanks for listening to everybody have a fantastic day and uh yeah we'll have to get you back on for

part two Joe I think I love it thank you for listening to web3 Academy we hope this helps you learn your website Journey if it does please share this episode And subscribe so you don't miss the next one nothing in this podcast was Financial advice crypto and web 3 can be risky you can literally lose it all in fact if you invest on account of what we say you probably will lose it all so don't do that in all honesty the point of this podcast is to remove the noise of markets and price and focus on utility and implementation anyway so you should not take any of this as Financial advice thank you friends and see you in the next one