How To Become The Best Crypto Investor Of All Time with Santiago Santos

Transcript

am I like doing that for a living no but it's an important part of my portfolio sure if I'm the second largest Telecom company in a particular country I'm really [ __ ] scared right now we want to see you buy some absolutely outsized non- crypto companies and totally crypto pill them I don't like to give advice but hopefully it's been useful for you welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conversations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at tholl up.co ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome Partners Redstone modular oracles are available on 50 plus chains trusted by

over 100 clients and over 6 billion in total value secured visit redstone. Finance to find out more welcome back to the rollup we have Santiago santz today on the program welcome in Santi um GM sir welcome to the Golden Bowl DM Andy Robbie thanks for having guys appreciate it thanks for coming man yeah yeah man been a been a longtime listener on Empire as well as just follower of your journey I think like I think I first got wind of you maybe during like the Crypt Punk uh bull cycle last last run I think you were kind of early there um yeah that was a wild time it was wild nft def5 summer and then nft Mania whatever

we want to call it was was crazy nothing really I faded that so hard man yeah what is fading I mean like yeah hold conversation but yeah it's nfts I can understand you know people like still fade him but I guess nfts are back yeah I think that we want to get into that a bit I think uh obviously pudy Penguins just dropped their their token announcement I think that kind of pushed a little bit of fire into the market um but just like real quick St it's your first time on the show and I was recently watching a pod of yours that was around uh I think the thumb the thumbnail was super click ba it was like I want to be the best crypto investor in the world or something wild is that true

like what is your what is your drive behind all of this work that you doing and have you always been competitive like as a young kid in sports or something or like what what drives you man why wouldn't you want to be the best in your discipline and it's crazy because when you ask most people what they aspire to they'll either give you a number or they'll um tell you something it's like why wouldn't you it's like I appreciate we're going to talk about probabilities here yeah buying a lottery ticket low probabilities but if you don't buy the ticket you're never going to win so you have to buy the ticket and so like if you don't believe you can go to Mars then you're never going to go to Mars so you have to believe it to put everything in motion and yeah have a

process everything but yeah ABS [ __ ] lutely I believe it I mean I'm not delusional about it I'm not going to be depressed about it if I don't get there um like what is success like I've been focusing more more the game I'm playing and it's just it's it's very introspective um but yeah yeah of course I want to win and and I can I be the best I mean I'm I'm Mindful and cognizant that it's a very competitive field but yes 100% um I don't think I ever said it in that podcast like verbatim but you have to believe it if if you don't believe that you can be the best in a particular discipline then you're never going to get there and and the challenge both the challenge and

the but the challenge about where we're living in an age where you can compare yourself at a global scale since day one that was not true for prior Generations you know it was very localized you want to be the best in your town you want to be the best in your country but not on a global scale and that introduces anxiety to the equation in a and it could be very anxiety inducing you know because you're comparing yourself in this industry to people that punted peanut and went from 500k to 65 million and you're and you're doing here putting in the work you've been here for multiple Cycles you haven't really made that life-changing money or whatever and it could be very paralyzing demoralizing uh frustrating so you really need to focus on the game you're playing the process otherwise you're going to get carried

away but but at the same time the beauty of this that you can actually compare yourself at a global scale so like even if you didn't have the opportunity to go to a great school to live in a city like New York that's more competitive more Global now you can see it right and I had the privilege of of um being exposed to very competitive environments early on in my career like I was a I went to Boston which is a very Multicultural like very human capital dense environment academic environment I went to Harvard summer school when I was 15 like and so for me like before said you always think that Harvard's the best place in the world and and I had that sort of fantasy about it but as soon as I went there I'm like okay like it's real because you identifi the people

there it's like these are not aliens like there's something you you you see something of yourself in these other people that was so distant and so I'm lucky because I had the opportunity to go to Harvard before College I didn't go to Harvard College uh but but I that's just one example of like then you believe it you're like I can be here because you see yourself in others and so similarly I went to Investment Banking and at JP Morgan which I thought was the best at the best group within the Investment Bank but I had to be there to say [ __ ] it I I can thrive in this type of environment it's not easy you have to work there hard to get there um and that's like now you extend that to crypto crypto is an environment where like you never had like like ideas and

capital like converging at the speed of light like that's like amazing because open source systems like you really value information on the edges and so if you're smart you don't have to go to Harvard you don't have to go to JP Morgan if you are smart you will get discovered faster in this industry than any other industry in the history of the world in the history of humanity like it has never been easier to be be discovered on a global scale with capital and so you sort of invert you say there's really no reason why I couldn't I couldn't get far I hired I've hired 18 year olds or 17 year olds that I never met uh at Pary like Nick I didn't care if he had gone Harvard I don't hire I'm not hiring right now people for my new fund new

Venture I don't care about your resume it it feels unique in that in that sense that this is the the closest to a meritocracy that we have in in any other industry 100% that that was part of the attractiveness at least for Me Maybe Andy as well is that you know this was an industry we going to college Andy and I that's where Andy and I met and then coming out of that it was like well go anywhere you're going to need three to five years experience right or you go here and you this is only industry is only three to five years old you're on the same Level Playing Field as everyone else and and you can go much farther um and it really felt like it like the uh the air of equal opportunity right and it is really unequal results is the key

thing here it's I take make it not money here but yeah 100% like that's a beauty of this industry like America for me is the best country in the world because it is the closest thing to crypto like crypto in America it's it's sort of like it's sort of match made in heaven because America is the only place in the world where people actually care more about what you think and who you are not which family you come from if you come from old money new money all these [ __ ] parameters it's like I don't care if you come from money if you're an idiot you're not going to be taken seriously and that's beautiful about this country and by the way they also celebrate success and failure like if you're not failing like there's actually something about like super powerful about about this idea that you can take

outside risks that's not true in Japan that's not true in Mexico that's not true in Latin America most of Latin America Europe is stuck the country the continent hasn't innovated like in a century it's stuck in this colonialism like era of like victorianism and they're like they're still holding on to that because that's the only thing they they have and so they make these like stupid things about like oh your old money and so they glorify that it's like America is like the only place in the world that actually like really celebrates that Innovation and risk-taking culture and it's it's beautiful and crypto is is that at a scale and it's you could appreciate why younger Generations like love this space because you know it's uh it's very refreshing but when when when you like you can talk about like the the Anon culture is powerful in the sense of like

you know I don't care if you're what color of skin you have what gender preference you have sexual orientation none of that it's like are you smart are you contributing on chain and there's a very clear way of contributions mapping those and being rewarded and and open source systems are beautiful in that sense but like you have to have token and that's what people that are not in the industry that are critical of of crypto never really understand that open source with a token allows you to to acre value to the people that are contributing and it's more meritocratic it's more equal uh Fair distribution and that's super powerful incredibly powerful yeah most

definitely yeah I have a question you you mentioned early on and it was obviously being competitive playing the playing the game to win and I think a lot of the the the things we talk about in this podcast are probably applicable universally across Industries but you know you mentioned that you're playing your game you're choosing your game and you're playing it to win what is your what is the game that you're playing some people are in it for the tech right some people are in it for this or that right but what what is your game I'm incredibly grateful and lucky to be alive in a moment where I don't think there's ever been a point in the history of humanity where like we're

seeing this convergence of Technologies primarily crypto and Ai and that really is transforming how we live like when I when I was born the internet didn't exist largely and now like like the last 20 years have been super transformational it's only going to get like the rate of that transformation like instead of 20 years like in 5 years it's going to be incred I believe it's going to be totally AAL and so I think you really want to lean in on that on the frontier and be and I think for me that's crypto um not AI I'm not technical enough it's not biology like AI will impact other Industries but um my belief is that humans are not really good allocators of money most a lot of the people that have the capital right now it's a corination problem and and I

think you can um this is sort of Peter Theo gets to this idea that like we've innovated in in the world of bits but not atoms like nuclear's out of favor we haven't really innovated on on travel Transportation like certain things that are just it's a coordination problem governments are not really good allocators of money uh large Financial like large allocators are also not they're risk averse they're playing this picky game of compounding Capital I'm not afraid to lose money I I just I just I'm always like in search of money because I have a lot of ideas like why why like if I had another if I had like five billion I would oh totally fun nuclear there are people that have it but they would rather buy a boat or they would rather I don't know do nonsense with it and so I generally think that I

I can on the margin be a better allocator of cap a router of capital into the areas that are um just overlooked neglected and and that's what really drives me um so the best way that I can do that is still in crypto and that's why I continue to be in this industry the moment I you know don't believe that to be true I'll probably move to something else yeah yeah I think uh I mean with the with allocating Capital comes comes risk right of course I mean that's the crypto is inherently more risky than other asset classes from the outside perspective looking in now from from you know from my perspective I I I I tend to

think that like holding some Bitcoin in a in somewhere safe whether it be custodial or in a in a ledger in in a safe Etc you know I I I think over a long-term span that's probably safer than than holding fiat currency but others wouldn't agree others think T Bill's very safe fiat currency is very safe now a wise mentor of mine also said in in business in life and investing it's really not about uh how well you can play the game necessarily it's about picking the right game and I think that kind of applies to what you're saying here with regards to crypto but even if you pick the right game and if you're if you're swinging size you are get to get emotional you are going to have to deal with the with the ups and downs of crypto especially so like when you're

playing this game of investing in crypto when you're ating Capital um which you know I think the community knows that you've done well so you know size is being deployed how are you managing your emotions like how are you managing your own human psychology do you have rituals do you have things that you practice journaling like what are you doing to to manage your anxieties and kind of like day-to-day life of being a crypto investor uh one thing very specifically I open source my brain because that criticism and that ultimately I put it out in the open and it's it's visible that what really kills you are the risks that you minimize or that paralyze you uh and the internal

dialogue is is is very can be good but also really um destructive and and I've been there uh you know I I I I made a ton of mistakes I'm happy to spend hours hours talking about mistakes um I've recorded episodes about that so but again it's open sourcing it writing is very useful to organize my thought process but you know I I I did long form and then I got more and more into short form which is Twitter because I I want to get my ideas out and you know now I'm starting a new com a new fund um is it always perfect no it's difficult and so I I want to tweet about that I want to document the journey and I think when you um oftentimes like we look at these very successful people I'm not comparing

myself to the likes of like y musk or Mark Zuckerberg or Peter theal or whatever but like you only see the bright side of it you only see the autobio you only see the biography the the the the headline but you don't really understand the process and and you really should like really focus on that process if you really go talk to them like the closest thing you have is like Founders podcast right like he really goes deep into the the Journey of these very successful people most of them had very traumatic experiences most of them have near-death experiences like musk how many times did he punt his entire stack and was like SpaceX was like weeks of going bankrupt uh Amazon like was weeks before the market crashed if they not raised that they would have gone under like we should like focus more on that because otherwise you don't

really fully appreciate like how how hard it is and the process is um is complicated investing is a hugely hugely psychological Sport and so I think uh where I myself and I've seen observed others make the worst mistakes is it's not so much you could be successful but it's like when you compare yourself against your neighbor when your neighbor is making more money than you it kills you you do dumb [ __ ] you put on Leverage you um it's it's very difficult so um for me at this point am I lucky yes of course I've been very lucky like I'm in a position where I trade less money for more relevance but you have to get to a certain level like for me the most important thing is finding meaning in what I'm doing and again I consider

myself very lucky because early on in my life I discovered this industry called crypto that I think is the most impactful socioeconomic transformation of our time AI is super impactful it is but like humans are soal species and underneath the social element is coordination every the most impactful pieces of Technology have allowed us to as social species coordinate better language um like language just communication General the printing press radio um the internet um Transportation uh the LLC like this all all of these pieces very groundbreaking piece of technology have allowed us to coordinate better as species crypto is like that next wave of of coordinating better with

species and so for me it's uh I wanted to get very quickly to a point where I could make decisions and play a game not because I wanted to get to a specific number and think about it but to free myself from that and then start thinking about the impact and the relevance because that gives me meaning and and for me the game that I'm playing is is feeling fulfilled in whatever it is that I'm doing but also being compassionate enough with myself that if I make if an investment doesn't turn out the way it is it's not destabilizing I'm not going to lose it all you know you insulate your lifestyle and then because that allows me to take on more risk and put myself more in that edge of Frontier to to be taking big swings and and and it's not necessarily

about like how much you're punting in a particular investment it's more like it's it's it's a time that's how much time you can dedicate to something yeah I mean I think more concretely than to to kind of wrap that into the lens of of actually uh dealing with a couple situations that that all lay out that I think all of us and as well as everybody who's listening have dealt with which is one you get a trade right but you size it way too small that is just that is just some of the worst like outcome possible because you only have a couple of those like those generational cycle trades okay so that's one the second one is you size it right

but you sell way too early that's also just extremely extremely tough to like mentally deal with because you you often want to buy back or you especially in crypto it's very volatile so those two situations and then I think the third one is just simply like selling way too late just like going full full round trip and so like these three situations can be extremely mentally taxing in size um so like for for those who are listening in the today's cycle now building off this kind of a more abstract uh mental model of kind of build of investing in public documenting open sourcing your brain kind of maybe even building a strong support group right who can kind of help you with your

decision- making or at least with your emotional processes how do you deal with more specific investing woses in the past or going forward like those kind of three scenarios that that I laid out uh yeah great question I I don't think you should ever you should be sufficiently uncomfortable but not overly uncomfortable because again it it only gets harder if you just if you punt your entire stack if you put all your money and you don't have alternate sources of capital if you don't have a buffer to lean on if things really go south like again you never want to do anything that puts you out of the game you're going to be more likely to make mistakes if you use leverage using Leverage is a ticking Time Bomb you will die at some point why would you do that

in a space that it might take another five years or 10 years like you always want to invert and say I always want to be you always you never want to compromise your ability to play the game that you love and therefore you you then minimize like you then stop doing so many things that are going to put you closer to that edge and and so on the sizing piece yeah it's something that most people and I initially didn't think about much um now I'm more systematic about my sizing on the Venture side it's always if I don't if I'm not willing to make a position x% of my portfolio then I haven't done enough work I don't understand enough so I'll pass um and so I I want to make I want to make I want to size Venture investment where if it if it does on the on the upside case

like 100x or whatever it will return a decent amount of the fund and it will been worthwhile the other component is you have to re underwrite the thesis like when I joined the industry uh collectively Bitcoin was at uh 65 or 80 bucks it was like a billion and a half indust collectively crypto was like a sub five billion dollar industry I had a whiteboard I was like oh I was comping it to like a you know SAS companies like oh if it if it only gets to the valuation of Salesforce like 10 billion or something this this 10x it's great you know uh and then I had a whiteboard I kept updating that number it went from like you know went to 10 billion then to 50 billion to 100 billion you're like you know I mean like in that process so difficult because it doesn't it doesn't

ever move in in the in the in the pace you think like you know it's sort of like you know things move really quickly um and the market gets ahead of itself and whatnot but um yeah as you think about like the mo this particular moment in time like the Market's clearly rated very meaningfully the last couple weeks because finally crypto moved from An Enemy of the State bucket to The Innovation bucket it's never been in the Innovation bucket that requires you to reerrr component of crypto will be an order or magnitude bigger than Bitcoin I'm here because it will be at some point in the next 50 years I will make this bet that the crypto dominance the

Bitcoin dominance will fall to the the point where there may be even a network that is bigger than Bitcoin because Bitcoin is a very particular um commodity that is sort of like the pessimistic side of you says it's an escape hatch to Modern monetary policy and fiscal irresponsibility and so Bitcoin working is almost like a a very pessimistic scenario where like [ __ ] really hits the fan and I uh more of a Optimist and I believe that the more interesting facets of this technology are allowing us to coordinate better and that is smart contracts and that has an impact in said differently

the the market cap of of gold is vastly smarter than like the entire economy of this world and you are effectively a you know you're you're addressing that market and that's that's that's at least nor magnitude bigger than gold and has more ility um and utility drives value and so I think some of these smart Contracting platforms will be I think bigger than Bitcoin now it might take 10 years so I'm not going to use leverage I'm not going to be impatient you know we all have an I have an thinking nly like you sort of lose patience but I never want to I never want to put myself in that super uncomfortable position where I have an I have like an expiring

option which is leverage uh or or putting all my life savings into something but I will size it where if it does work out in a probability weighted scenario it returns my fund and then some but the the other really good advice is um insulate your lifestyle as much as possible you know have alternate non-correlated sources of income whether it's rent a normal job something like that because when I insulated My Lifestyle I put some money away where I was like I never have to work day my life it's this is outside the industry that I love I've been in a position to take far more risk be more systematic be more calculated because I know that no

matter what like I don't have to think about that and it I've been in a process over the last like four or five years of minimizing all kinds of distractions from my brain that decided where I'd want to live um how I want to live and really creating an environment where I can just dedicate most of my computational resources which is in my brain to focus on just meeting entrepreneurs backing them and now of course a new chapter of like starting this private Equity Fund but like it's minimizing all the other stuff you gave a great piece of advice in there it's not it's non-financial advice which is play the game that you love which hits

back on our on our the way we started this podcast and then insulate yourself so that you continue to play that game and play that game win the game um but but play the game that you love and so as you're thinking through this process and I I mean there was a couple of scenarios that Andy mentioned as part of that question one of them was with regards to to sizing and I think you mentioned sizing relative to your lifestyle relative to this insulation that once you have that set you insulate yourselves and and you size appropriately and then also part of your decision-making process on on where to allocate that size the other part of

that in those scenarios was timing and time Horizon and so when you're when you're thinking through you know I I think all of us are here at least on this podcast are here thinking in decades um and so some of these thesis take quite a long time to play out and so how do you balance shorter term uh opportunities that are available with decade long opportunities and then and then potentially even even longer time Horizons yeah great question I think uh after I do like a certain type of return uh proba I'm sort of mindful of the probability stacked against me so if if you always do if you're constantly doing 2x every month like you're become the the the single most successful investor

in the history of humanity like am I going to be that person likely not I do want to be the best investor but like you know what I mean like after that like it's not you the Market's just like too hot and and so you sort of like recal rate you're thinking you take risk off um like it's not sustainable for for those moments the time we're all been there like nft summer defi summer to like be yield farming at like 2% per day it's like it's not you know the gravity at some point like takes it you know has an effect on that um so so yeah I think um you know after I on the Venture side is more systematic like after I do a certain type of return I ID risk principle because that allows me to then

fund the next wave of startups at a lower valuation so like if I invested a$1 million valuation that goes to 100 I'll take principal off now because the probability of it going from 10 to 100 is I think for for that to do another 10x is that probability is lower now I'll re underwrite my thesis so like you know when I invested in in lend when it was like a sub $10 million market cap it Go defi started really to work and they were like okay for me the thesis initially for investing in a called lend back then was uh compound would just raise round and and it would valued at 100 million so I said well lend is farther along it's not silic and Valley darling but it will just Converge on compounds valuation that's a 10x so you size it like that and then things

really started working then comp like and then a just like really took off tbll grew D5 became a category um and then and there you're like you know the position grows to a point where you're like it is an uncomfortably sized part of the portfolio you make the hard decision to size it marginally down because from a portfolio construction standpoint like it's just the right it's just the right thing to do um the problem is in crypto like we see these single shot like success which is like the guy pumped 75 bucks in a peanut or 25k in a pea made 65 million like you it's all in a vacuum you know what I mean but like you have to think about holistically like professional money management I manage my family office now I manage it in a i

document my my investments I document my decisions to to move positions or not um but Andy you asked me something before we started the podcast like what am I doing now like I'm I'm not like doing much um I am on the margin like take some risk off here and there or or you know move stuff around but like for me like the biggest change I've done structurally in my portfolio over the last four years since I live parfi was like coming to the conclusion that Sana was going to be far bigger than ethereum did I time that at the very absolute bottom at like a soul hitting eight no but along the way I reer wrote The Thesis it took me a little bit longer like my lizard brain just like needed to like come to it and I did more

work and did more work and then and then one day I just sold all my eth all of it dude that's nuts because you also inspired me on the soul trade like way back when on Empire you just start like something switched in your mind and you just started like you were just like soul of course it it wasn't like a singular day but I I just came to that idea of like Iver say uh salana is like now it's like a third of ethereum market cap but back then I was like Solana was much smaller and I was like I don't need to believe that central banks get around this industry I don't I don't need to believe that you know all these stacked assumptions for you to believe that Bitcoin goes to a million a million you need to believe that like a lot of

things in my investment framework I don't I don't ever want to make investments that have all these stacked assumptions that I you believe XYZ and then and then the outcome happens uh for me the the so the Solana thesis was I don't a compelling reason why it shouldn't be at least the size of ethereum today today on what I'm seeing and then informed by the fact that like most investors funds in the space have been Legacy most of their positions have been in ethereum as have mine like today my Venture portfolio is still I don't own any eth uh but I do have a lot of exposure to the ecosystem because of my Venture investment it's like it's it's like actually much larger than salana uh and okay with that

because I it's not to say that I don't believe in ethereum I don't think ethereum goes to zero I actually don't think that necessarily ethereum comes down from here I just think that salana converges on that um and so I'm not I don't want to portray myself as like a an e ethereum futter like a it's just I just get excited about what's happening in Solana and I think there's a place for ethereum there's a place for Solana there's a place for other um highr of blockchains avalanche appas um you know monad like I just generally think I think that most people um again to my point earlier that I believe that collectively these smart Contracting platforms are going to be bigger than Bitcoin there's going to be a an opportunity for for a lot of these chains to be successful and it's not

just modular or or or monolithic like we're making these like these discussions not informed by usage you know what I mean they're all theoretical I think all we can do as an industry today is really advance nonspec use cases and this is why again I'm starting this fund because I just got tired one day I just woke up and said most of the failures in my portfolio are companies that built something really cool technology but no one cares or like crypto doesn't have a tech problem it has a go to market problem and you could say that the regulatory environment has been the blocker yes in large part but still I would argue by virtue of how normally technology gets adopted like there are companies that still are on

spreadsheets they haven't even adopted like crms you know you mean like in today day and age there are Industries like real estate that you still pay your rent in a check you I mean like technology takes as as for for as much as we're connected as like in our social lives like businesses are slow to adopt technology and I just one day woke up and said I am not willing to wait I don't want to wait another decade for this technology to really hit to really be deployed and I want to deploy that in size and there's one way to do this as opposed to trying to convince a business I'm going to go and buy them and I'll make the and so when I talk to people about the thesis some of them are really

get it most of them actually get it some of them are like skeptical I'm like well you either don't believe the tech is ready today which I could argue all day long that it is and or you don't believe I'm the person to do it and I totally get why you wouldn't but if it's sort of like putting into question why and I think the the closer you look at some of these projects deep in stable coins there's no reason why this Tech couldn't be at scale there's no reason why we couldn't have billions of users on chain yeah I think the uh the like the smart contract thesis applies to if we're going to bring the whole world on chain like we're going to need more than one chain I mean that's the whole point yeah absolutely but we get infighting because of tech differences and cultural

crypto's also just like naturally very like tribalistic it's like the world of Academia it's very bitter and people fight all the time because there's no money on the line these people are fighting for like Prestige of like oh I'm the noble orat and I have the right thesis and hypothesis and all this crap by the way most studies can't even be replicated but the the world of Academia is like so bitter and you know conflicting and like like because there's no money in the line but it's like people find it a bare Market or bull market that all these all these discussions kind of go away um but uh yeah look there there's a natural sequence of like you know X investment and then deployment and then you stress as the tech like no different

than your phone like think about the first iPhone it sucked there's no internet like it was so expensive and clunky but you know it's such a powerful usage that it Justified the investment in cell your towers and you know 2G 3G 4G or 5G LTE like and then we're GNA have faster you know why because you had Netflix you had Uber you like now we spend all of our lives in these phones and so what I'm trying to say is that like we have excess um Supply blocks space not enough demand and I'm not dismissive of things spec like speculation is super important for technological adoption but I think we're at a point where we really need to look at ourselves and say if we don't in the next five years really drive the non-speculative use cases I think deep in is super powerful I think stable

coins are deep in stable coins super powerful if we don't really make a very concerted effort as an industry to drive that we're going to have like severe draw Downs we're going to like you know have some sort of look ourselves in the mirror and say where are we going and I just from where I am where I think I could help the industry to me that was very clear that's a sort of a the calling that I got earlier this year now I hope other people rise to the occasion too but I I want to I want to do it we are definitely rooting for you and uh we want to see you buy some absolutely outsized non- crypto companies and totally crypto pill them um one funny thing about you Santi is I asked you on the rooftop in Singapore what your some

of your best trades ever were and I think you said crypto punks and whiff yeah um and to the average folk that is just complete nonsense like you're telling me you made your best your best investments ever on a dog with a hat and an nft um like how do you reconcile crypto's mimetic nature with this like speculative driven kind of work to like also the like the value of of of crypto in the in the outside perception because I think we have this perception problem right now and like I'm not saying that that you doing well on whiff and punks contributed to it but I'm saying that other people will want to mimic your

success and others successes and that kind of leads to this flywheel like what is the like how do you balance the gains versus the perception and kind of like the meaning behind all this uh the reason I say whiff is not because I made the most amount of money it's just because I allowed myself to change my mind on something because you go back five six years ago or four years ago or three years ago I was very critical of memes not sure you are because it makes you know it's like here we are trying to create the next World Financial system and you know a single meme coin like do is worth more than all of Defi and you're like for [ __ ] sake but you know I I changed my tune on memes I appreciated them for what they

are they are an important onboarding mechanism um they are they have been they will continue to be and it's almost like it was just more of a you know when you meet someone and you get triggered that's your problem not that's not their problem that's why you fight with your parents all the time because you don't want to see parts of your personality but your parents remind you so much of the of your weak vulnerabilities that you hate it but it's sort of a mirroring effect and so at one point I said like why what is it why do I have such a visceral reaction against memes and then it was just really this idea that like I I kept like it was at awe internal contradiction of like you're hearing me say that crypto is such a social movement and it's a you know humans as species coring species

well memes are the most powerful condensed you know forms of expression that people form around them and and and it's like well tokenizing culture like that that's a thing um and but look you know that you clearly have the Charlie Mong the world that like hate gaming hate casinos like I mean I sort of just peeled back and said I'm just going to see it for what it is it's an important onboarding mechanism um it's not meme so the criticisms around memes are more around it's a some meme coins are like very Insider and cabish and that's not a meme problem that's an industry problem that over as we now think about the

regulatory environment open end we need to get better at creating an environment where there's proper information disclosures because that guarantees the integrity of a market like the role of the regulator is to create Fair markets where information like the access to information is to everyone right companies file these statements and and you know I think that that like I think we'd all agree that like Integrity of markets is super important and so it's not a main problem you know I mean I don't have any so so I came to that realization so I I I allowed myself to change my mind on something and it's like when I interview people or when I talk to people it's like I always want to know like what have you changed your mind on recently if you haven't changed your mind on recently it's like a huge red flag I'm

like you you seriously would tell me that as connected as we are you're definitely not processing new information you're just only want to see it's so sort of like confirmation bi it's like so for me it was just I changed my tune on memes and then I I've I've been lucky enough to you know have discovered the some of these memes you know goat and whiff and you know stons all this stuff you know mean like uh am I like doing that for a living no but it's an important my portfolio sure I'd like to ask of that question what is something that you haven't changed your mind on since you've got into this space like you've underwritten your thesis several times but like consistently through out from the time

you got now you know it has stayed steadfast it's the most important socioeconomic transformation of our time by far by far and AI is going to be super impactful but there's something about crypto because I grew up in Mexico because you see inequality it just for me like it's slowly just started to really you know I I keep saying I feel that I'm earlier in this industry than I was back in 2012 why because back then it was just Bitcoin it was just like digital gold it was 10 trillion now there's something very like sobering but not in that like like there's something just very

like just it's just sort of like a holy [ __ ] moment where it's like this is working and you see it a line of path for this industry to be way bigger than 10 trillion um it's like no you're going to transform finance and generally how we coordinate a species and the relationship that users have with companies um citizens have with governments it's like it really is all-encompassing and and the closer you are to these things it's like you have to kind of start seeing it to believing it and and I think like um I had an intuition that the crypto as a whole was going to be incredibly transformational for many people it was more narrow back

then it was like oh remittances you know people get hos by moving money across border and it's really the people that that need it the most lower like socio economic demographics that like get hurt the most in this Current financial system but now it's vastly larger than that but it was it was it was it was that belief I guess I could I've updated My Views but it was it was an intuition that it was going to be incredibly transformational um and and it was I remember writing an email to my dad asking him to invest in ethereum and the icos said this is the future of the internet and it's like one of the best emot I've ever written that is awesome dude like did I did I fully appreciate the technology no like

absolutely not I was like naive I was dumb I still am you know do you have to be slightly like naive and in like optimism is sort of like if you know everything it's like it's like your economics professor that is sitting there telling you not to buy a lottery ticket he's like you're an idiot for doing it most of my professors never you know they teach Finance but they they don't invest in the stock market there's something about you have to be playing the game you know you have to be in the field if you're not in the field yeah sucks to be sideline did your dad ape he did wow I'd love to read that email I if you've open if you put it out there anywhere we're gonna flash it up on the screen if the screen is still just us three looking at each other then

yeah I went I went around like 2015 2016 because I I wanted to do super early stage Venture and I was in PA Alto at the time at a growth Equity Fund and I went around talk to seoa talk to Kleiner and they put together investment memos be like invest in ethereum invest in U storj uh Saia like all these like uh Bitcoin and that that was my thesis was I the earliest no even back then I felt that was late because you know Chris Dix was already talking about it B was already talking about it all these people were talking about it so I felt incredibly late back then even then you know it's like you always feel late to this industry because it's it's just um there's always someone that that discovered it earlier it's uh the most important thing is just being consistent

and and perfecting your process Satoshi probably felt the same way he's probably like you know ecash has already come out you know this you know I'm just jumping on the bandwagon meanwhile yeah here we are yeah absolutely Santi how do you Rec St or how do you reckon with um with this Ripple pump um I think it's one of the most hated pumps of the of the year so far uh just broadly these Dino coins um I you know I've seen these memes going around like we all thought retail was gonna come by our meme coins and they just went back onto Robin Hood and aped everything that was on Robin Hood basically like what's going on with ripple um you know and and H like what do you think about this kind of action

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best out of fraxel you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity oh it's positive I think um you know do I believe that Ripple is is sort of the the best uh project out there uh I don't know VHS betamax uh like MP3 techn like go to market again uh business development is super important and you know I'll give him credit for that um any sort of evangelization of this technology is positive I've taken it more just it's positive uh now you have to be doing some good right it's just like scam

definitely not I don't think crypto Ripple is a scam is it how I would how I would think this technology there's other projects that I think are more interesting to me uh but yeah it's funny because I I just think well it's an indication that like non- crypto people are back and they're interested so just use it as a piece of information or re underwrite uh now the question is are they is that money going to flow into but just Ripple alone like added like what is it 100 billion in market cap or something no no I I I it was it not something like that like it it was it was like over it was like 150 or something crazy it was $150 billion in market like you're like I want to know who's buying that and and then it's like I think some of the biggest mistakes

I've done in crypto just like not not truly understanding how big these Capital markets are and and like if you peel everything back like it most of the world's population doesn't have access to the US Stock Market can't buy Tesla stock can't buy Nvidia can't buy Apple stock crypto allows normal people in like most of the world's population to invest in things other than their local you know government bonds and real estate like you are waking up dragons everywhere in the world and it's I don't think we've like truly appreciated like we haven't been scratched the surface of like what that might mean mean I think the US government finally understood oh stable

coins are really allowing the world's population to like drive an infinite infinite bid for dollars um and like tokenize stocks like we haven't even we haven't even gotten there as an industry like what do you think like will happen to crypto once you tokenize the stock market and everyone in the world with a click of a button can punt stocks it's uh you I mean like it's it's way bigger than 10 trli is what I'm trying to say just patience we'll get there under writing the thesis in real time really no serly we'll get there it's just uh and by the way the the hard part is sometimes you have PTSD from a bare

market and we're coming off of one and so just remove it take it off go to therapy remove it as quickly as [ __ ] POS like as quickly as possible it doesn't serve you anything um you know most of the time like you know when you make a mistake you fall as a kid you get an F on a test you make you have these traumatic experiences everyone tells you to learn from your mistake no one tells you when to let go of it I wish someone had told me earlier to let go of it because once you learn you don't have to it keep thinking about it it's just trauma that keeps haunting you uh more emphasis should be and I and I wish someone had and it had to be my dad like come to me years

later and it was just sort of like this catharsis like this release of energy that I was like [ __ ] I can get rid of this but it's it's hard like more emphas to be placed on that like once you learn from your mistake never look back yeah I I think there's one there's one really important thing that that you mentioned in there which was you know you can choose your thoughts and what you spend your time thinking about just like you choose the game that you're playing and you know we get we get overcome sometimes about these these things that consume us because you know they were so impactful to our psyche but it's a choice to let things go just like it's a

choice to choose what game you're GNA play or what job you want to take what field to explore two things again the name of my fun is inversion Capital because I think that it's the most important mindset framework that I have like invert you're going to be in your deathbed at some point what's that obituary going to be why do people remember what you do with what's your legacy what it's not your number it's not how much money you make it's uh it's what you do with it it's how you make people feel honestly I mean I know it sounds soft and we're all talking about punting meme coins and punks and all this crap but it's like what are you doing like are you finding meaning and I've met really the most I've had the privilege of like meeting like some of the most successful

people I'll tell you man they struggle with the same [ __ ] and most of the time it's you it all comes down to you don't find meaning what you're doing you know I mean like just just focus on that now of course I wish everyone in this world could be in a position where they don't have to think about putting food on the table 100% 1,000 [ __ ] percent yes but after a certain level trust me most people think they want another five 10 million 20 million 100 million a billion you never stop there's always a guy that has a better boat you know better wife bigger you know jet whatever you can always compare yourself and you know you want to go into that measuring contest it will never end well but I guarantee you it's

at the end of the day you're going to just look back and say have I done good not impact but it's crazy you ask people what do they want to achieve and they talk about this impact thing just I've now just come this I want to do good now if it impacts one person that's enough if it impacts a 100 even better a billion great but it it really is just that it's as simple as it sounds like I want to do good I think this industry will do more good than harm it can certainly do harm like every piece of technology sort of the Prometheus miss you bring fire to humanity they can do they can do agriculture or they can you know burn each other but it's just sort of that that's that's the bargain that you have with technology but all you can

do is just try do like just do good every day you you have a choice and and also it's very liberating like this great quote that I always remind myself of is you under no obligation to be the person you were yesterday today it is so liberating because you have all this emotional C and you have ego and you have a perception of how people think about you Robbie who you are and you Andy of who you are and how people describe you and you're like let go of all that today you have time and you have the opportunity to do whatever it is that you want if you're in a position to do that God that's incredibly lucky you know I mean like that's that's amazing it's very peaceful too it's like the there's so much noise and mental chaos that gets

and it consumes you at times if you don't let it go and you don't you know mean it's like that's hypothetic someone's listening like know I just want to get to five million I just want to make my first million my first 100K my first a th000 you know you can always have these levels it's like why well because I don't want to think about okay no okay fine you want to win you want to feel relevant you want to feel validated you want to be successful I get it but a lot of times people say I want to get to a number because I'll change my life it's like yeah honestly don't wait to get to that number to change your life because you can change your life today in ways that you might not even appreciate it simple things getting a personal trainer

having someone remove friction or things that are distracting have a someone do groceries for you uh have a maid come once a week have a simple things like have a j a personal trainer you know once a week um get a massage once a week you know simple things like this like treat yourself kindly have self-compassion like a lot of times like the biggest you know you're competitive yes you're a type A you want to be the best in the world all this stuff yes but if you don't treat yourself with compassion you will not get there and the problem is you know it's like you know it's like no pay no gain you should always be putting yourself in stress you know it's like always full gas one speed yeah we get it type A but you have to have self compassion because you're going to make

mistakes Because by the way if you don't it assumes you have control over everything that is around you and that's the stupidest assumption you could ever make and I and I've made it in moments in my life especially when stress is high I want to control everything and that really eats at me and you know especially in this world where like technology and and the the world is moving really fast you never ever ever want to assume that you control stuff you always want to be able to change your mind and willing to change your mind and not want to control stuff because you don't control most of the things or outside of your control and to think that you control stuff is is the path to misery because oh boy I mean it's just it's just ridiculous to assume that you're going to control stuff and

and I think it's just really important to just know the difference between the things that you can't control and you can't control and you can always control what you do and who and how you make other people feel feels relevant I I got a massage the other day after surfing and it felt amazing I felt great that's bucks that's two bucks yeah so definitely worth it yeah really so Santi understanding this perspective about like uh like having your basically your mental health in check and treating yourself without having to assign it to a number uh for your goals and understanding this impact that you want to create do you apply the same same rule of thumb when you're looking at early stage Founders because from what I understand and from my experience so far with Robie on on our on our Ventures arm we've basically

backing the founder at the preed and Seed stage it's like there's there's really no traction sometimes no product um and you're looking at the founder and you're like is this guy gonna is this guy or girl gonna go and get this done um so like are you also thinking like oh you know these these Founders should be taking care of these me of their mental health and oh yeah oh yeah or or should they just be in the trenches all the time or even more broadly like what are what do you look for in those early stage Founders that is like okay X Y and Z like check check check this I don't even care what they're building this person is somebody that I want to put my reputation and uh Capital behind mental Health's everything because otherwise it's it's a yeah you're not going to be able to go very

far uh go read uh jokovic the very top three tennis player in the world he um he had to go through this Evolution where he he at one point hated the game he had to take a break to go back to his early childhood and remind himself of why he was playing in ReDiscover the love for the game uh there's a great also uh a graduation speech by Roger Federer uh that he did this year and he talks about just the math the numbers behind winning he said I won maybe for 51 or 56% of all the points I ever I ever played in my career and he's became the one of the best tennis players of all time and then you jaapos cross that with the autobiography of Andrea Agassi he was like smoking meth because he hated the

game was he a good player yeah but it's it's totally different contrast successful too but yeah I think I think you it really starts from within you have to find peace with yourself be self-compassion compassionate and when I when I looked for a Founder I'm like is this guy is this particular you know he or she going to have the mental fortitude to drive through a wall and make this kind of like you just sometimes get a feeling for a type of found it's like this person's not going to give up and a lot of times some most of them have had like very traumatic experiences in their life and I'm always looking for does this person has this person had a deep tra trauma and so most of the times a chip on their shoulder it's a it's a

near-death experience so they they will never want to go back to that spot but mental health super important I wish we talked about it more I think everyone should allow themselves to have someone in their life that is not a friend it's not your parents there's not your loved ones you can openly talk about um I do it more in the open now Twitter and invite all the you know uh for me that's therapy I mean running uh cycling is very therapeutic for me but also um you know I started noticing in in the podcast which is probably the most fulfilling thing that I do now or one of um that people really love when I opened up and talked about my journey and and

not the you know just really going deep into my psyche and allowing my people to see a more vulnerable parts of my personality of my journey people love that why because they identify with that they they see a The Human Side of it not a robotic side of you know like this guy's an investor no it's like they want to see the human element of it and and honestly like I would have done that earlier if I knew that now I just came to terms with like you let go certain things and you're like I think the path towards finding love is allowing yourself to be vulnerable if you're not you're rigid it doesn't fix anything now I'm not suggesting you you know share with the world everything you're thinking there

are filters and stuff but yeah just being a bit more open um so but therapy is great because one of the in the after 2018 I went to therapy I was like very depressed that I hadn't topped this you know the cycle and whatever of felt like a total failure to my parents at giv me some money to invest I didn't lose money which is a crazy part I didn't like I I was up like multiples and my D's like you're an idiot I'm like yeah but I didn't time to talk and he's like excuse me like for you know I mean like it was so irrational as many things are um but um in the first session or second session the the the you know therapists ask me like so what's your identity and

I'm like described myself you know did inv some Banking and now I do is think called crypto and you know he just lets me talk for like minutes and he just cuts me off and says yeah but what who are you I'm like dude I've just spent [ __ ] 30 minutes talking about so you're G to build me for this crap like seriously he's like you told me what you do not who you are and and he's like come back next week and tell me who you are I was like oh okay and hob were and hobbies were a big part of it and and you know allowing myself to like discover hobbies that I I stop running I was so focused on like oh you know like crypto's going to be huge and I'm going to like want to become a billionaire now

like you know it's like because why because you see Mark sler and the Google guys and like they're not due to similar an age and they're there's always going to be someone that's like by some easy measure farther ahead than you are what I'm trying to say is it's easy to come up with these qualifiers easy to come up with these metrics of success are you a millionaire are you a billionaire are you a leader of Industry are you a CEO are you whatever are you a Founder but it's like no it's like there is value in describing yourself in these nonarbitrary Metals um because none of that matters if you don't feel comfortable with yourself or you're not peace with yourself and so for me it was just a very eye opening to to go on this journey of developing my identity and honestly that's been the thing that has

helped me the most because you kind of free yourself from the stress of Imagine tying your identity to the price of Bitcoin or how many you know it's like I would have had six heart attacks by now yeah S I think a big part of that is like is the stuff that you talked about in the beginning which is the insulation like if you look at like maso's hierarchy right these these these kind of self-actualization topics are much more achievable once a certain level of stability has been achieved so like more concretely then let's say you've done you've done well so far in this cycle or or or you're you know you plan to do well over the next couple months couple

you know into 2025 um and you're you're you're going to pull some money out of the cycle to to insulate yourself like how do I how do you go from like very little Financial insulation or just some you know maybe you have some stocks or some assets or some or some other stuff how do you go from like that to pulling out you know either multiple six figures seven figures from crypto markets and get to that insulated point that money as with startups with your personal life have at least 12 months of run way I don't think anyone's ever regretted that whatever happens you have 12 months to figure your [ __ ] out kind of thing yeah put it in whatever something earn

five six% on it fine um then if you're in a position to take more money then you say okay you invert you say how much money do I need to never have to work a day in my life by earning the risk-free rate 5% 2% 3% and you do that and then you focus maniacally on the other part takes more risk yeah seriously but what I'm trying to say is but if you're in a position to change your life I've never regretted taking money out and spending it with people that I love and experiences never now you can do the math and be like [ __ ] I sold the theem at $2 or whatever Bitcoin at 8 100 bucks or

whatever yeah well you know you're still here you know I mean like how many more years do you have in your professional life if you live the average expect life expectancy have another 40 years ahead of you 60 years ahead of you think like that you're compounding compounding just you know experiences knowledge whatever it is that you're doing make sure that you're perfecting your process you want to be making less errors of process more and you errors of come hopefully less but you can't really control the outcome you can always control your process how you feel how you document it and I think over time you perfect your process to a point

where where yeah you can become the best and bester in the world if you could but it you can't really control that because it might be someone that does that better and by the way how do you define the best is it how you feel is it the number that you have is it I don't know could have been a guy in India that inherited like you know an Empire and then is he the best investor in the world he definitely has more money so it's very uh subjective I guess like what is the best I think for me the best is being a peace with myself and always perfecting my process and minimizing errors of process that I make

and perfecting my process and if I perfect my process probabilistically there is a higher shot of me becoming the best inv in the world in an absolute basis but on a personal basis I'm optimizing for certain things in the game I'm more and more aware of the game that I am playing and it's a it's a singular game it's a single yeah markets are you know PVP but it's it's it's a it's a solo game it's it's a solo sport I'm you know it's it's me competing against myself probably why you like running and cycling yeah run cycling you do those by by yourself yeah you're always measuring against your time and and and that is so instrumental in of itself like again when I started running and I you I knew that I was a decent Runner not like

Elite I never my frustrated dream is becoming a professional athlete um you know bone density body composition I'm never going to never going to be that uh or very unlikely at this point in my life yeah but you're quite tall you're actually surprisingly tall Santi yeah not as yeah I guess but uh but you know I mean like I wasn't born like a anyways um you've also chosen not to play that game yeah correct no no no I I did I said uh you know talking about the opportunity to be close to to these type of people like in where I live all the professional cyclists um so I cycle with like Elite guys like the guys that go to the tour to France I cycle them

once or twice a week when they're not doing intervals and the first time I went riding it was just like this magical experience I'm like God this is what it feels like to be like you know a tour to France and and we grabb coffee you know as every good uh every good group ride should have you always stop for coffee and we're talking I'm like just trying to get into their brain and me like God you're like a national hero like people look up to you and he's like man I would trade your life for mine and I was like what are you talking about I'm like I feel the same way you want to trade he's like yeah we would trade and it was just like really cool it was just very uh it was it was a treat to be able to talk to these guys and um you know I

I I I think that they they love what they do but it's almost like I want her to be a ski instructor and then you talk to ski instructor they're like no man you want to be here on vacation with a ski instructor kind of thing and you're like yeah I guess um but you know unlike investing being a professional cyclist or being a professional Runner or athlete like your your life your your productive life is very compressed very it's like two three years at the peak but investing doesn't have that and that's honestly remarkable that we can you know you're Charlie muger of the world you know until the last day of this man's existence he was like punching he was there you know and doing

it exceptionally well like that's what I find amazing about investing and the learning curve you never stop learning kind of thing but like I think for me that's it was just very comforting to like just come to terms around that yeah so Santi just kind of want to go one more into this kind of investing game conversation which is something that that I've really appreciated in life is that having an older Mentor is super valuable for uh actually learning and skipping obstacles basically taking shortcuts and not having to learn things the hard way and I consider you a mentor in this in investing game and in crypto and I think our audience will as well what is something that you can share with us today as far as a really tough

lesson that you had to learn the hard way that others don't necessarily need to or some Sage wisdom that you can share uh with us so that throughout our investing careers in crypto we don't have to learn uh something you know just with big losses yeah well there's so many uh I recorded a whole two-hour segment on all my mistakes uh on Empire but uh I guess the the biggest advice that I could give that I had to learn the hard way h comeing into terms that I was not going to be the earliest or the first discoverer of it but that

I um like taking my time to form a thesis and I think it's difficult in crypto because things especially now continue like the aperture of the space has gone so wide and trying to like be an expert on everything or time the absolute bottom and I think it for me it was very paralyzing cuz see an asset like when I discovered Bitcoin had gone from like you know nothing to $60 and I'm sitting there thinking I'm an idiot um so I I think like it could be very paralyzing it was for me cuz you there's something about like when you ask someone most of the time they're like when did you discover

crypto it's it's trying to get at this it's like how early were you and I think we glorify that how early were you not so much what you do after like who cares if you joined in 2012 who cares if you joined a year who cares if you joined today it's um if you truly appreciate this technology for what it is you again I think you see it and you see a potential of becoming vastly bigger so or larger I would have just wanted to tell myself to take my time and really focus on or structuring like developing really hardcore Theses um and then allowing myself to kind of process information so the other

ones of course like you know there's security make sure that you you have a secure setup so that there's sort of this idea like the longer you've been in crypto like if you haven't if you haven't been hacked you haven't been long enough in crypto kind of thing uh just just spend time on that it's important and and have a hor Crux model like really doesn't cost anything to have hundreds of wallets different providers minimize counterparty risk um if there's smoke there's fire don't be afraid to move quickly kind of thing but uh at a more personal level um yeah

it's it would be probably disingenuous or unrealistic for me to tell you not to have a number but and because you know people want to free themselves from and and own their time but um I appreciate I've been saying more than one thing but yeah I don't know it's um um yeah I don't know I I don't like to give advice because I think every journey is is different but um and it's difficult for me to say something now because people be like

well yeah it's great because he's already made it kind of thing um but yeah when I when we it would just be insulate your emotional well-being financially you you don't necessarily you know there are numbers that make it marginally easier to own your time but it's it's um yeah just develop a process and again assume that like it's not going to be easy assume that it's going to be moments where you're really going to question yourself you really want to want to sell and you really want to just leave or whatever or but just uh yeah just develop a process where you you can you have an identity outside of

the space you you you you understand what you're worth and have your priorities set and I don't know man like Life's Too Short like it's not all about crypto it's not all about what the price of ethereum or salana is um okay I'll give you this I'll give you this this is what I would say you have five minutes left in your life who do you call what you have one phone call to make there's always for most people there's always one that comes to mind there's always one phone call you make and it's usually someone that you

haven't talked to in a while or have had some disagreement with and you want to leave this world without having that burden with you um make that call and I heard it from I think it was um Sam cell he is one of the if not the best real estate investor of all time sold his Empire to Blackstone at the peak for like hundreds of billions of dollars Sam uh in his what I appreciate in the from the founders podcast was miserable through the later like last 10 years of his life because his mom passed

away and he he was miserable because he had gotten into a fight with his mom many years before that and he uh he never they never made up they never you know he never said sorry and so um looking back in his death bed he said God if I could change something I'll give up all this money to be in a position to tell my mom that I was sorry and he said you know what the craziest part is I don't even remember what we F about back then so I guess if I were to do something constantly in your life just think about what that phone call would be and make sure that because sometimes life doesn't give you that opportunity

to make that phone call just live like you don't have that phone call then you're just self-actualizing and just never never live with regret never just make that goddamn call because you can do it today yeah yeah that's deep that's a good one um I we're gonna get you out of here soon but uh F we want Friday f um we can't leave on that note you know it's like it's Friday you know people wanna yeah I'm going make a phone call right now yeah right don't don't wait um yeah man invert um I mean there's so

many lessons right and and I appreciate you you you don't want to give advice or you don't feel comfortable giving advice but frankly there has been a lot of valuable pieces of information here that you've shared on the on the call um a lot of non-financial psychological ones that that are just bigger picture items as well which which I particularly appreciate um but yeah the fund I mean you know this is something that you know has has been a culmination of experience in your life um yeah what what is the thesis generally I I also wanted to Loop in a question ear from earlier which is about staying patient especially when it comes to some of these decade long thesis you know what are what are some practices good habits that you have that that you

employ in the fund uh how do you stay so patient generally what what is your practice well you talk about my family office the adventure and then I'll ask answer it on the inversion stuff because I think it was two sep questions there right yeah yeah for for the family office uh my so since I left Pari four years ago I invested in like over 150 companies um I've been Super Active um for me it's uh I want to find those people that are in it to if I see a Founder that or a team that is looking to positively impact this space almost likely invest um I made mistakes sometimes I've you misdiagnosed or misread a team uh but for the most part

I feel really um fortunate to be in a position to to invest and you know allow people to to kind of realize that vision and be along there um helping them in any way I can just more more of more more often not the founder really knows the answer you just need to be there to be a sounding board not to tell them what to do or when to launch a token um but um but yeah that the that's the the practice is it's position sizing I think before 80% of my time is spent on is this thesis right is it correct um you have a hypothesis but um um now it's uh like 50/50 it's like the position sizing is equally important to your point Drew like you could be right but if you're

not right inside doesn't matter it really doesn't and so uh focusing on position sizing and and how that evolves in the portfolio is something that I think I spent more and more time on initially in my earlier on like I did not and I could point point to a lot of mistakes around that so position sizing is almost as equally if not equally as important as the thesis being correct on the thesis um you want to get paid to be right in a in a meaningful way uh so yeah focus on position sizing um and and and and and own this particular vertical you know like you know at perfi we were very focused on defi we we obviously were very successful

um um and again like you know you're not going to be an expert on all these ecosystems uh it's it's like uh you know imagine like the the early Venture funds in the 1990s that were investing in the internet like well now like that that's just like you know this conven so much and the industry crypto has grown so much so you know be focused uh be be concentrated um in a way where like you can really own a particular category and be go deep develop a network uh and then because in in early stage investing it's really are you going to get that call are you someone that Founders is going to want to work with so reputation is so

important so that's probably top of mind so does that answer like that part of the question like in terms of how I think about processes structures and stuff yeah it does okay uh and then the fun around inversion in terms of being like a culmination I don't know if it's culmination it certainly feels like a a calling I don't think anyone's doing it as I said earlier I think for me it's um if you you think about like carot perz like the the the technological Revolution cycle it's like installation which is like the the for early Innings of a technology like we've been like over a decade like iterating on around these pieces of Technology four years ago I would told you that the tech is maybe not there there today I have a ton of conviction that it's working there is

no reason why this Tech should not be at scale 10x more but car pz talks about like there's a turning point and then there's a deployment phase which is is sort of like sized equally as installation but I don't want to I don't want to wait another decade because you guys are here most people in their crypto Journey it's so amazing because I almost wish I went back to the first time that I discovered crypto it's like you the crypto Journey at some point you open a door and you see you see a a way of doing things um in the future that it's kind of really hard to come back and you want to pull in as much people into that it's like the the line which in the wardrobe you open a wardrobe you enter this magical world like that that to me is a

crypto and it's sort of like to your point around being patient it's like well God damn it I don't want to wait another decade and so for me it was just uh this idea that there is a way to do that and I think there's a way to compress that timeline because I have a lot of con and it's really was deep in like deep in has given me a my my thesis is as follows it's um you the the beauty about deepen is it it is such a compelling product stay coins are but if you're in the US people don't really appreciate this no one can argue against pound for pound If the product is the same but it's cheaper it's better like the helium plan like it's it's like 20 30 bucks unlimited like it works like the value proposition of

deepend and some of these projects is so compelling it's like no one not even a cryptos skeptic can can can refute it it's like are you an idiot do you like paying for more like AT&T sucks Verizon sucks like your cable sucks your Wireless sucks they chargeing you 100 bucks a month you can buy and draam it for 20 like it's like a it's a no-brainer it's what I feel that the best technology is always like invisible but it's felt and crypto that's the end state of crypto it's that this technology is so impactful that most people may not even appreciate that they're using it so I'm now less and less focused on trying to explain it to people I'm just extremely focused on implementing it to the point where PE it's invisible

and I think that's that's the Hallmark of great technology I think that's what crypto is it's an operating system the problem is you know I've been through the podcast and throughout my career been trying to evangelize this stuff and No One Believes it you have to do it and I will do it I will buy a company I will transform it it will be one transformation and I will tell you I took this company it was a two it was a 5% EA margin or or gross profit and I took it to 20 and by the way there's no other company in this industry that has 20% eile margin and they're all going to be like that Houdini effect they be like wait a minute what the [ __ ] what just happened here I'm like what' you do was it AI must have been AI I'm like no there one

thing it was crypto and that will be for me that's success that's what I want to do and I want to get there quickly as possible so I'm very focused I know sectors that I'm really focused it starts to deepen and you know the nice thing about deeping is once you're once you're servicing a customer with um if you're their mobile provider it's such an entrenched product that then you can do so much for that then you introduce stable coins then you give them the hardware for free preloaded with all crypto apps you want to get people on chain that's how you do it like you know I mean like I'll sell you a mobile PL and I'll become the second largest mobile carrier in a particular country

22 million subscribers I'll buy that company and then I'll roll on the back end deep uh something like helium to save 75% on cogs that EIT margin goes from 4% to 20% markets never seen that and now I can play offense now I'll tell you yeah I'll give you this phone sure you want it for free fine but you know it comes pre-loaded with some crypto apps and oh by the way it's exactly a customer base it would want to use stable coins because the arpu is low because they have remittances are huge and they want to hold dollars and then you have tokenized stocks and then you me mean like you become the everything app and and that's my thesis like that that for me that's why I like I'm I'm

very focused on on on that and activating that user base um and it's in the millions of users and I get incredibly excited about that [ __ ] yeah dude like that's that's my that's my ultimate thesis about whether it's a fond or an operating company it's it's I think it's fond because um and I don't want to raise the small amounts because it's sort of like people are like oh why you want to raise such big funds I'm like I don't know if I'm going to raise zero or nothing but the initial is just going to be with my capital and then it's like well no the impact's the same like if you don't it's like U raising a dollar and raising $10 it's it's exactly the same level of effort kind of thing and so it's like if you can raise 10 why why just raise one

if you can buy the second largest Telecom company in a particular country why not do that because the impact's greater right it's just just sort of like I'm just very manically kind of focused on on that I do believe that Tech is ready I do believe that we can drive this change I don't think that the current construct of cryptos like building distribution is hard we've been focused on exporting this technology from the inside out it is just going to take us another decade I don't want to wait another decade I can be patient on many things but because I see a way to do it much faster and inverting and doing the opposite which is I'll acquire business I'll tell management the [ __ ] off politely uh I'll replace management and then I will make the I'll do the transformation but you have to kind of

get keys to the kingdom and do the change if I'm the second largest Telecom company in a particular country I'm really [ __ ] scared right now it's like barbari of the game no I I'll be polite be like hey guys here's here's decent multiple go sail in the Horizon give me this asset but you know I mean like you need a spin most most of the traditional world doesn't appreciate how impact everyone's focused on AI and AI is going to be huge but from a first principal standpoint I never want to compete and you know doing AI Transformations everyone's going to be good at everyone's going to do it some people better than others on the margin no one's focused on AI that no one's focused on crypto and and team it's like

the classic innovators dilemma it's like either traditional private Equity Funds or management teams or com CEOs don't really appreciate how impactful crypto can be to the bottom line like today not in 10 years like today you can make these meaningful changes meaning reductions and costs um so I'm excited you know I it's one of those things where I couldn't not like I'm going to do it has it been always easy and smooth sailing absolutely not it's kind of a new chapter where I'm building um and not you know not not all days are super Rosy sometimes people say you're an idiot not I never want to give you money for this this is the dumbest [ __ ]

I've ever heard I'm like oh fine I guess um but uh a lot of things we talked about in this podcast as I'm I'm now implementing in a different dimension and capacity uh but again it's self-compassion like I'm allowing myself to do this the outcome I necessarily can't control maybe it's too early maybe the strategy is untested maybe no one wants to give me money I'm still going to do it maybe in a different capacity but I'm still going to do it why because I can't live with myself if I don't do it I I couldn't live in myself if I didn't do it and to me that was like okay let's go let's do it yep the shift from investing to building is definitely different so welcome back to the trenches man hey man it's quck to be here and thanks for coming on it's been

an absolute pleasure man um yeah one thing I the last thing I want to say that I forgot that I wanted to say earlier on I've been incredibly lucky and privilege because early in my life I found these um tier Point drew around mentors it feels awesome when not your parents cuz your parents were always you know unconditional love kind of thing I was super you know I appreciate some people can't say that I had a incredibly privileged in the sense of uh just got a lot of love for my parents that allow me to take a lot of risk I always knew that I could come back and they would love me and I appreciate not everyone can say that and I'm very incredibly lucky for that and I will try to do that for my kids as well but um I first need to find

a wife um but nonetheless or not I guess uh um but um I guess what I'm trying to say is um try to find a a mentor and I think a Hallmark of a good Mentor is a champion because feels awesome and in this industry it's so great because it's open source and people can discover you and take you under their wing like everyone in cryptos I've gotten a ton of help and that's a really cool part of this industry like you have so much access to Founders and really good Builders and talent and try to find a champion for you like and I think the easiest way to do that is like just develop a voice on Twitter like you know reply and and you'll be discovered again it's I think that's the the thing that I want to impress on people is the odds of you being

discovered if you're smart if you're will to put in the work if you're driven are really high in this industry and there are people here that are you know you can make a name for yourself and it's not hierarchical it's not do you go to Harvard do you have certain qualifications if that doesn't move you and inspire you then I don't know what does you know and I think you will find a champion I was very lucky to have found a champion in my life that said that made me believe that I can do it and I think just surround yourself by those kinds of people that that will tell you yes yes Drew yeah yeah you can make the best podcast yeah you can be the best investor you know someone someone ultimately has to walk you through and says here's a lottery ticket

maybe he'll pitch in a bit but do it and I think in this industry there's a lot of people there's a lot of really generous people with their time and so take advantage of that it's really awesome and the industry so we're getting started we're scratching the surface there's going to be opportunities to do so many things uh different use cases that we haven't even envisioned and so be patient try to do good stay focus um play your game understand what your game is and and and allow yourself to you know make mistakes along the way and hopefully they're not you know mistakes that kill you um so yeah know I mean I don't know I don't like to give advice but hopefully it's been useful for you for Fox that's it find a champion For the Love of the Game For

the Love of the Game Man For the Love of the Game yeah who's your Champion who's your Champion oh I can tell you like well I'll tell you why I know they're CHS because if if if those things I always know they're Champions because if those things hadn't happened throughout my career I don't I would not have been here and it was my uh it was my it's like it's like Math teachers Math teachers can make you believe that you're either really good at math or bad at math and most people believe they're not good at math because there's a stupid teacher out there that told them that they're not good in math and it was the problem of the [ __ ] teacher because they're not good teachers you know I mean that's a that's a teacher that's an educational system

problem but I'll tell you who uh my my freshman year professor of Finance see the investment banking she had been super successful and it it it has to be someone like aspirational like that you you really say okay this person really crushed it and she took me into her Wing I went to beu which was not a Target school for any Investment Bank and he said no you can go where do you want to work I'm like I don't know what's the best investment bank she JP Morgan I said I want to [ __ ] work there she like you can definitely you can definitely get there it's gonna take you you have to do but I had to hear it it was just that and it made me believe as naive as I was it made me believe there was a lot of luck in the process but she

made me believe that I could get into the best investment Bank in the world and then within JP Morgan I the vice chairman of the investment bank took me under his wing I don't know what he saw but he just did he would invite me to his Thanksgiving dinners he just I was there working hard and he took me under his wing and he believed and I was like okay and that to me was like really special because that and then I was I don't know there's so many of them I just I don't know why I've just been lucky in that way um but yeah like there's these people that it's not my parents because your parents will always still you're great it needs to be an independent person that that you think is reasonably very successful and and they'll say yeah you

can go far and I wish that everyone in their life has that opportunity to feel that because it is so empowering it's like someone handed you a free lottery ticket and you're like [ __ ] yes like let's [ __ ] go you know what I mean it's like now it's on me but someone is having someone believe in you with it's a loved one or it just feels great man and I wish everyone feels that at some point in their life I was incredi I have been very fortunate to have those particular Champions um find him F and and doing the podcast where you guys do here what I do at Empire I think for me it's I came to terms that maybe this is the best way to do it at scale facts yeah I think so too yeah I think

so too yeah I mean I think what you guys do here is amazing um just podcast and general content you know sharing these stories uh like the the the the best uh the the most the thing that I remember the most over the last two three years is people coming up to me at a conference saying hey man I listen to this podcast you changed my life I was like well you know I didn't think I'd say anything particular special but he's like no man but at that moment is what I needed here and you allowed me to do X and Y and I was like honestly you're giving me too much credit but I'll take it man like it just feel great to hear that and uh that's awesome you know that that that feels just so great it's so most wholesome feeling that I you know it's just like

really cool to hear it yeah we agree I mean recognition is is always appreciated when you put a lot of effort into things as especially when you feel the impact because sometimes it's hard to feel like the tangibility of what you're doing especially in crypto sometimes it feels um sometimes you question what what we're doing here and I think that's a lot of the specula driven stuff that you were talking about prior yeah hearing that your that your work has helped somebody is it goes a long way for inspiration as well to keep going oh yeah yeah there's been many times where I wanted to leave this industry but it's moments like those that uh just overpower and it's just full of joy and stuff like that so it's uh it's great truly is dude San I'm most I'm so

inspired um thank you so much man we are going to absolutely Crush 2025 together it's G to be a massive year for crypto for yourself for inversion for Empire for and um I'm stoked honestly there's never been a better setup in this industry and we're just I consider myself incredibly lucky to be alive in this moment in time and you guys are here punching and so playing the game so yeah I think we're all should feel really lucky to be in a position to do that so thanks for having on guys hopefully it was helpful and if not you know you can just delete the pot and move on way we're not going to do that yeah we can I guess but it was a treat man you guys uh it was awesome to come in here and and and um yeah I really enjoyed the

conversation thank you so much for coming man phenomenal yeah thanks guys