How Anthropic's Scariest AI Could Break DeFi's Security Assumptions: Uneasy Money

Transcript

I'm Kane Warick and welcome to Uneasy Money because what happens on chain never stays on chain. Before we start, nothing you hear on Uneasy Money is financial advice. We're just three builders talking about what's happening on chain and we want you to always do your own research before aping in. You can find all our disclosures at unchaincrypto.com/unemoney. And before we begin, here is a word from the sponsors that make the show possible. Multi-chain Advisors is an emerging technology growth firm that has helped create 50 plus billion dollars in enterprise value for 80 plus clients over the past four years. They're the partner to help navigate markets build real traction today at multi-chainadv.com.

All right, I'm here with my co-host Taylor Monahan, security expert and a repeat guest, second time, Austin Griffith of the Ethereum Foundation. Um, it is April 8th, Wednesday. Um, our first uh our first segment. So, we got the right people in the room here for this first segment. Um, I think the timeline has been going a little bit crazy for all of the mythos stuff. Um the anthropic has basically said this model is too dangerous to release. So we have released it [laughter] but not to you. Um and I I guess we should probably go through a few of the things that this

model has been doing right. Um it has uh figured out like 20 zero day vulnerabilities in like decades old software. Um which feels a little bit like what crypto has been kind of going through for the last like whatever uh you know six months where um all of these old things keep getting hacked and we're like this thing's been on the chain for four years. How is it possible that uh you know we we're in this position where um you know balancer v2 gets hacked right and then mythos is like well I've hacked open BSD and you're like excuse me like so so it's

just it's kind of petrifying. Um, so yeah, I mean, uh, Austin, what's what's your take on on Mythos based on on what you've seen so far, um, just generally and then I guess in relation to all of the like crypto agent stuff you've been doing? >> Yeah, I think I mean the crypto agent stuff I've been doing is very insecure. So that'll be the first thing to [laughter] break. But I think that like uh like I said, I think it's like we got to rip the band-aid off. Like it's gonna happen. We got to do it, you know, smart. But I think that we're we're going to see this. We're going to see uh AI get so good that a bunch of hacks are going to happen and then not so many hacks are going to hack any happen anymore. And I think the balancer one is

the one that really sticks out in my mind. Like code that was around for five years all of a sudden gets popped for, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars or hundred million dollars or whatever it was. Like that's that's scary and crazy. And I think we're going to see that for a little bit and then not so much anymore. But yeah, I'm I'm ready to to to rip the band-aid off. Let's do it in a bare market. [laughter] >> Um so so I think in crypto we have a slightly different problem and and Tay maybe maybe you can address this, right? Um it is certainly awkward if you have 100,000 Linux servers and like you know load balancers are running BSD and it's

like uh we don't want to take this thing down because if we take it you know it's not easy to replace this architecture right but it's just software you can in theory patch it upgrade it and like do a hot swap or something like that right like these are systems that are not necessarily designed to like be immutable Um, what happens if Mythos is like, "Oh, Uni V2, I've cracked it." >> Yes, that's going to be a problem. [laughter] >> A massive problem. And I mean, I think this industry has realized this over time that

immutability is like freaking amazing in so many ways, but also quite impractical. Um, and and creates risk. And I think this was actually a a big conversation during the Drift hack immediate aftermath because all the Ethereum people were like just don't have keys, don't have upgradable contracts. >> I get it. But at the same time, like I'm not convinced that we are I'm uh if I'm gonna if you're if you're launching something today, I'm not going to bet that it's perfectly secure forever. I'm sorry. like I can't

>> unis swap is unis swap is uh the counter example to this that has given people more hope than it probably should would be my like hot take on this right like unis swap is amazing software but like it's like one function like it literally like it just rebalances a thing right like it it you know it is not a super complicated multicontract smart contract suite like you know it it's like for what it is and yet like my confidence to its unhackability has gone down significantly over the last like 48 hours right like if if you know people

like these are things these are these are pieces of software that are securing like billion dollar systems with people getting paid tens of millions of dollars a year to secure them and of course unis swap has had this giant bug bounty if you can hack it then you know like so so it's not like we haven't had uh you know security pressure in in the ecosystem um but it's a different level like a different level different scale to what some of these systems have had and yet >> there's like zero days in them so um I we talked about this we talked about

this like maybe a month ago Tay right where I was like, how confident are we that someone doesn't have a really smart like fine-tuned model that they've been working with that's like systematically going through and like breaking these smart contracts? Like given what they've said about mythos, does that change your perspective on the last like couple of months of hacks or you think it's still just a coincidence and it's going to get much worse?

No, I don't. Well, I I do think it's going to get worse for sure. I think [laughter] we're in trouble. Um, but I think I still think Okay, mythos is like it's a level up. Um, and I think that they have, it seems like they've specifically been thinking about security and been like, like the people that really know this stuff have been zoomed in on on the security elements, right? The exploit elements, the safety elements that come with the security elements. Um, it it wouldn't I mean, obviously, there are going to be people who are like just random people that are doing the same things. um

how far they've gotten and how like what's the most productive use of those things. I feel like I feel like it's not uh I don't think we're at the point where they've like honed it in so completely that they can just like let let it loose, right? Let their little hacker claw loose on whatever. Um but I do think that we've seen like AI assisted right? Where the AI is identifying things or speeding up those feedback loops, right? Because when you're fighting these exploits, you have to like uh there's like so many different sort of stages of finding the exploit. You have to like hold all this data where

you before you had to like hold all this data in your head and like understand it and then even once you figured out like this is a weakness, you then had to execute it, right? You had to actually put together the series of steps that would do it without fail. I definitely think that we've seen AI like rapidly like assist with with some of those stages. I think mythos is scary because it sounds like they're like this thing I'll just go and hack you. >> You don't even need it's not assisting you anymore. It's doing the thing, right?

>> Yeah. Exactly. And that's what scares me especially because unis swap is also unique in the sense where they do have it's a protocol. It's low level, right? They do have a huge bug bounty on it. Most of like the core software that runs this world is not built by by people with million-dollar bug bounties, right? It's like >> Fair. Yeah. Fair. >> That's why I think this is going to be worse for web two than it is for web 3. I think that like even though we have like money right behind, you know, one line of code, someone joked that like the WT contract got hacked, right? like when when there is just like a smart contract that has a deposit and a withdrawal function is basically like you're you're talking

about like hacking the protocol at this point if if there's something that goes wrong there. So I feel like >> are we not but sorry Austin like are we not [laughter] as well like you know we like validators like I mean >> this is the more complicated piece right >> yeah like validators are are and like that would be I don't even know like or even just say hey mythos buddy I've got some interesting news for you there's this thing called mev and if you can like just listen to this stream of transactions and just tweak it a little bit. We can make a lot of money. And Mythos is like, "Yeah, I love

I love breaking things. Let's go." >> I do think. Yeah. So, we're talking about breaking things and making a lot of money. And then MEV is just like being smart about ordering transactions and just like playing the game of of like the meool. I think there's a ton of money to be made by just like running these awesome frontier models. I I I don't know what we'll see. I think it's going to be really interesting. I think so. I I love UniS swap. I think unis swap is beautiful and it's like really isolated versions and it's not upgradeable. Like the way that unis swap v2 functions is like this beautiful hyper structure and if v3 gets popped like v2

probably won't. If V2 gets popped, V3 probably won't. Like, there's not a lot of like >> cascading things that can happen from from system to system. So, I I don't know. I think it's going to be worse for web two than it is for web 3. And I think that in web 3, there are people who have deployed their systems and done tons of bug bounties and tons of audits. And I think that's going to be good for them. But, of course, like we saw the balancer thing, and the balancer thing really changed my mind. That was when I was like, "Oh gosh, like that's [ __ ] [laughter] >> This thing." Yeah, this is dangerous.

And And you know, that was very unlikely to be mythos, >> right? >> Realistically, right? Like that was very unlikely to be mythos. >> That was probably a dude with Opus. >> Yeah. >> No. So, so I think the other thing that's interesting about Mythos, like you know, just zooming out above the like security risks and all of that stuff that that we see, um, this is the first time that we've seen, at least to my knowledge, right? Like we've seen like, you know, early previews, but like most of the time they just let the thing out in the wild. They're not that scared of it that they're like uh we'll like give it to people, you know, and like if you read they they released the uh the agent

card, right? It's like this like 200page document that says all the things they did and like basically ask covering. So when it like burns the world down, they can be like, "No, no, no. We tried to like stop it from doing this." Um so so they they um you know for previous models they give it to researchers they give it to a bunch of people they do a whole bunch of things before this thing gets out in the wild they do internal testing etc. This is the first time at least to my knowledge that I've seen a model that's so smart that they're so scared of it that they're like we need to give this to a small group of like 12 partners. So, you know, AWS, Apple, um, uh, Nvidia, the Linux Foundation, etc.

Um, and say you're allowed to use this kind of for security purposes for the next however long. I I I don't know if I saw how long. Um, uh, >> until it finds all the bugs, >> but like they [laughter] also, you know, how expensive is this thing going to be as well? because they gave them $100 million worth of usage credits. >> Now, I'm an inference enjoyer myself, but that's a lot of that like it would take a lot to burn through hund00 million in credits. So, >> un like I think they're just imagining these guys are going to run automated loops. So, you know, one one thing this kind of begs the question of is like um

uh Bars Churnney um had a really good podcast uh a couple weeks ago where he was like you should be building for the model like we internally we build for the model six months from now, right? Not from the model today. So, it's six months from now and the model is mythos, right? Um which could be anytime in the next few weeks. Um, and all of the things that we've been building around like harnesses and loops and things, it all of that stuff could just fall away because Mythos is smart enough that it's like, "No, no, it's f like you don't need to put me in a weird like looping thing, bro. I can just like, you know, do this uh for two months straight or something, right?" You know, because one of the one of the things is like this

longunning activity, you know, uh, kind of frontier as well, right? like that as the models get smarter, they can do things autonomously for longer without losing their minds and and you stay on task or whatever. Um, if Mythol can just sit there and like read the entire like OpenBSD codebase for two weeks autonomously like like obviously that's going to be very expensive, but it also means that a lot of the stuff that we've been doing around like trying to get agents to do what we want and not drift just sort of disappears, right? the the harness is getting like I spend a lot of time going back and forth between like using

frontier expensive model and then like how do I do this in a cheaper way and how do I use the frontier model to build like a more advanced harness that then can be used on a cheaper model to do the same thing and it's like using the frontier model to then like grade how well the the cheap model does but it's all about like cheap stuff right like what you're saying is basically they they'll give us of those and it will cost me, you know, $100 for one request, but it will oneshot >> unis swap v2 and it will make no mistakes, right? And so I think that is what's coming, right? And that's really interesting and we we've seen this in AI for like years now, right? Where they were making like all these like, you

know, specific things that could do text to image to text and and things like that. and then like a generic model comes out and the generic model can just like look at the image and do it better than any of those hypersp specific models. So I think we're we're always gonna have like this generic model that's hella expensive but really good and then we're always going to be kind of like working backwards building our own harnesses and trying to find like cheaper ways to do the thing that the expensive model can do. And it's it's funny going back and forth between it because it's always like oh my gosh this is amazing. Oh my gosh it's so expensive. how do I like lean back on something cheaper? And then you use the cheaper one for a little bit. You're like, "Oh my gosh, this is so freaking

stupid. Why is it doing this?" And then you go back to spending money and like I'm constantly oscillating between these two states. [laughter] >> Well, so so I think there's two things here though. One is um this is the last time we had uh new at least in anthropic land, right? like we had codeex uh which was you know late last year but Opus um first came out like middle of last year is my recollection um uh >> it was not great like opus 4.5 was not great like I was using sonnet 4.5 to write most of the code I've been I haven't written a line of code for like two years right and it's been mostly like >> a lot of uh you're absolutely rights and a lot of apologizing and a lot of

working backwards but the the real turning point was opus 4.5 Sorry, maybe I said that wrong. 4.4 was bad. Opus 4.5 in November was the real inflection. >> Was the one that like went across the chasm into like, oh, this thing's better than me at this this thing, right? So, so, you know, four 4.1 came out, Opus 4 um and and they changed the model name, you know, like uh Anthropic has done some weird model naming things over over the years, right? Where like um Sonnet 4.6 six was supposed to be the next version of Opus. It was supposed to be Opus 5, right? But then they've got Mythos now. So, you can't really keep track of all this stuff, but it has been

a while. And I I do remember um when I started using Opus and I was like, "Oh, this thing is actually like super smart, right? Like relative to the the baseline of of you know that that period of time. Um uh before that I'd been using like um 03 mini 04 04 um like opening and those things were like really dumb, right? Like really really dumb. Um but so this is the first time that we've seen like a big model leap as well. Like you know they need a new name for this is so much smarter than the old one. And the needing a new name thing is like always a little bit of a harbinger of like ah shit's going to get crazy, right? and

the name they use, right? Like sonnet is like a poem and opus is like a body of work and mythos is like the lore of the whole world world >> like Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, so I think I think you know like they're scared of it. We have obviously [laughter] >> clearly >> like they're petrified of this thing, right? Um, so, so they must have some really good NDAs in place as well because we haven't seen too many leaks from people inside these orgs, right? Like they're they're doing something to kind of lock this down clearly. Um so they also uh I think the other interesting thing um is that like we

we've seen every time that a new frontier model comes out like Haiku today is as smart as like Opus 4.1 is right like different context different constraints but like it's super smart it's actually really good and I mean to your point Austin like um with the right prompting you can get Haiku to do stuff that previously would have required opus, right? Like so the interesting thing now is how this shifts the cost curve, right? Because at the moment you've got um uh you know when when Opus first came out it was like $75 per uh million tokens and now it's dropped down

to like 25 um and it's got a 1 million context window. So the prices have been collapsing. So we have to assume like Mythos is going to come out. It's going to be $100 per million tokens or something like that, right? Or $200 per million tokens or playing insane. Um but what that will also do I think is push the cost curve down so that now probably Sonnet is the same price as Taiku and Haiku might be like almost free, right? And so now that like you know where in the cost curve you're optimizing becomes really critical for certain tasks because if you can get haiku to do it it's like subent per interaction and now all of a sudden you got a really

scalable thing that like previously wasn't scalable right so this is the other challenge I think in in you know even if you're building stuff for yourself finding that like optimal point so how have you been thinking about like you you say you're like go back and forth between like the smartest guy the Douglas guy like how do you think about this in in the stuff that you're working on? >> It's so it's a lot of like using Opus to build like do using the general purpose model first. So like I have a smart contract platform called leftclaw services where people can hire it to build apps or audit things or add a feature to an app and I just have like a general purpose agent that's using opus and a little sonnet and it'll go to the smart contract pull down the job and

just do the job and it's very good but then it's like freak that was 20 bucks or something like that. How do I get that down to $5? And then it's like, well, it's doing, you know, I'm it's it's funny. You see like Kanye pulled up to McDonald's in the giant lifted truck and it's like using Opus to to do whatever. Like using Opus to do a git pull on a repo. Like you pay you pay a dollar to pull a repo down because you're using Opus to to do that. It doesn't make sense. So then it's like, okay, let's lean back and figure out like where do I actually need Opus? I need Opus when I'm writing the smart contract and when I'm auditing the smart contract and maybe a little bit of front-end stuff and then I can use Sonnet for some of the front-end stuff,

some of the documentation. And then I've been using Miniax M2.7 for like almost everything else. [clears throat] Almost all all the things that are just like go run this program, go do this, and it messes up every >> That's a local model that you're running. >> It's not. No, no, no. It's it I think it will be, but it's not. It's like uh through I use it through banker but you can use it through a bunch of different uh but it it is like an Olama model but I don't think it's something that >> released yet >> is released yet. It's one of those yeah where eventually will be local but right now it's like in on someone else's machine but it costs like a hundth of what it costs to do with Opus and it's pretty good. It you know it's a little weirder now and then but uh yeah it's

it's okay. So, so it's like I'm always leaning back on that and I'm trying to work through like, you know, what costs $20 here? How do I get it down to two opus calls with just the right con? And and context is important, too, right? When you're having this ongoing conversation, the context is building and building. Each call, each consecutive call is getting more and more expensive. So, what you want to do is kind of have like that consecutive call, that conversation to be over in like Miniax M27 land where I'm paying a fraction of a cent each time and it grows to be like, you know, two pennies over the whole conversation. And then when I go to make that opus call, have Miniax give me just the context I need like here here is the exact context you need to write this smart contract and

here are the three things that you kind of do wrong sometimes. and have that all in a very isolated window and have it just like oneshot the contract and then maybe you use Sonnet to say, you know, like here's the three auditing rules and here's the contract. So it's I think it's it's just like fine grain, right? So you use the general model and you do the thing and you get it to work and you almost get like product market fit and then you go back to, you know, making the the whole company more efficient after you have product market fit. >> So So let me ask you this, right? like that that kind of you know all of the things you've been doing you've been building a bunch of pro projects and and you know I want to talk about eat skills for for a second as well um but um

doesn't all of that kind of optimization lend itself to like building a thing that auto switches models and stuff like have you thought about that like why like we don't really have anything like that yet where it just adapts to what you're doing and >> there are some I think I think maybe claw router was one of them that came out right about the same time I was doing my clawbot stuff I think claw router but there's a couple of these like routers where it looks like an an open AI grade standard endpoint and you hit it and then there's a little inference model in the middle there that says you know how how technical how hard is this question and then it sends it to the right model based on that it's slow

it doesn't work I I I haven't like done a bunch of claw router to know like exactly if it's that good or not. But for me, like I've tried a couple different things in like trying to do some triage on the way out and back in. And I've found it easier to just let the generic model do the thing and then go back through and look at like here's all the steps. Let's break it into steps and let's break it into which of these things is going to be easy and hard and then from then on kind of having it more hardcoded I guess is what we're think. It's more like a hardcode triage process versus a dynamic triage process. But like this is the future. I think I think you will have a local model running in your VRAMm that can triage the stuff on

the way out and then go to frontier models based on how you know complicated the question is >> it's routing it. It's >> eventually. Yeah. >> But I don't have that working right now. It's all hardcoded. Yeah. [laughter] So, I have I have a uh luckily before before the >> You got like a 512, right? >> I do. I've got I've got a 512 uh gig Mac Studio and I've played around with a bunch of models um there. I've I've actually got a bunch of old MacBook Pros as well. I spent like two weeks trying to get an Exo cluster running. Nice.

>> Um and I finally got it running. It's got like 800 gigs of RAM and it's just so slow. Exactly. You said that you wait forever. You make like 10 queries to opus while you're waiting for one to come back. >> Like, you know, you think Codex 5.4 is slow. This thing is like just like molasses. And so it's it's too slow to be kind of worthwhile. I need to I need to hook up. I need to try and like speed this up basically. Um but I've also found that like the local models have been getting better and better, especially specialized models, like using a specialized model. Um, but the other thing that I think is super interesting is like these skill files that are starting to emerge, right? Um, it's like the matrix for agents. And so

the experience that I had with Eid Skills, like you know, you were on the show, you talked, I built ET Skills, and I'm like, I've seen humans over two years go through the like Austin Griffith like, you know, like and and get much better, right? It's just it's like ve a very slow process and you're like, "Oh, this guy is like smarter smart contracts now after like two years of reading these documents, right?" The agent, you literally pull down this skill file. This was like the craziest thing, right? I was like, "Hey, bro, like there's an Ekkill thing. You should like look at it, right?" And and Opus was like, "Yeah, sure. Whatever. I'll have a look at it." Pulls it down and then it was just like instantly like

one-shotting. It was cra it was crazy how much because you know the thing the thing is like all of these models know about crypto. It's in their training data right like they know about crypto but they have like a cursory knowledge that's like just enough to be dangerous right where it's like oh I know how to do this thing or I know how to do this thing. Um, Eat Skills just like hones it down to like a fine art where like all of a sudden they know all of these like very nuanced things about like how contracts work and deployments and stuff. Um, so so you know you I haven't what I haven't tried I'm curious if you've tried this like if you give Miniax or or like even like an even

dumber local model that you've tried eat skills like is it fine-tuned enough that like set of skills that they can actually do a good job or is it still kind of too hard? >> I wouldn't put money in it [laughter] yet. >> It does some good stuff. I I so the the stuff that my CL like Cloudbot has deployed smart contracts using using E skills that have like a quarter of a million dollars in it right now. Like Tay Tay is going to hate this. [laughter] I I have deployed like through my bot deployed contracts that no human has looked at until they're already on Ether Scan that have a quarter of a million dollars in them right now. like the like

there's probably like 350 400 total US dollars in token >> across all the like 80 or 90 contracts my my bot has deployed. So uh I'm I'm using Frontier. >> We found you a new target. Mythol. >> I was about to say how do we get Austin access [laughter] to this? >> Yes. Yeah. I Yeah. I think we should give like Danny Ryan access first if I have to give it to someone, right? Like let's get the protocol guys first and then some of the but but okay so the the skill files first of all like if you out there are building anything and you're expecting agents to use your anything you should have a skill file and this skill file kind of does this like I know

kung fu thing exactly like you're talking about like Neo in the matrix they they plug him in they hit a couple buttons and the dude knows how to fly a helicopter or whatever right and it happens instantaneous and this is what you're doing you're you're giving the model all the things it needs to know. And it's basically the delta between it's training data and reality. And these models were trained like on a lot of 2023 data. Like it's just stuff happens so fast in in crypto land that you have to kind of fast forward it through all the things that have happened. And that's what a good skill >> balancer is saying.

>> Yes. >> Like balancer the safest. >> Oh rip rip balancer man. That's too bad. Yes. Yes. and and they also think it costs $40 to deploy a contract on Ethereum and they think uh there's a handful of things that they just like hallucinate and they always do this. They're always they're so lazy in pattern matching and hallucinating like they could go look like you could do one web request and come back and have the answer and it's like nah bro I don't want to look it up. I'm just going to like guess at the route and then hit the route and see if it works. Like bro, why are you so lazy? But [laughter] okay, so skill files, you you out there, if you're going to have agents using your [ __ ] you should have a skill file for it. It should be whatever your website

is.comskill.md. And it's just like the the robots.ext stuff. And for a while, we did LLM.ext, but skill.md is kind of like the the canonical route now. So, and everything everyone everyone that's building anything that even humans use right now that agents will do on behalf of humans like your flight tracking website should have a skill.md because really soon we're going to have AI agent uh travel agents that are doing all this stuff for us and these skill files get them over that that delta of you were trained in 2023.

here's all the stuff that has happened since, you know, it's almost like waking them up and programming them with all the like they were in a coma or something and it's like here's what you missed over the last two years. And then it's really good, like you said, at oneshotting smart contracts, knowing what the latest tools are, knowing where to go to look things up, and and then Okay, so I used an agent to help me write a skill file. And this is this is like a first mistake that you have to be very careful with because if an AI is hallucinating this stuff from their own context sort of like from if if they know it by heart already, it doesn't belong in a skill file. So you have to do this like constant phase of interrogating each piece of knowledge inside your skill file to make sure that

the agent doesn't already know it when you wake it up. So there's this process of just like feedback looping where I'm having the agent take any little piece of knowledge, check to see if the LLM actually knows that and then remove it if it knows it so we're not polluting the context. >> And then the next like loop outside of that is then use the skill file, give it to an agent, tell it to go build something, see where it screws up. Oh, you you you deployed the contract but you didn't verify it on Etherscan. Why didn't you verify it on Etherscan? And then there's this whole like you have to interrogate the agent and you get to the bottom of it and it realizes like it was lazy. It like knows how to do it but it just didn't want to. Right? If you could

just have a skill file that says don't be lazy that would be great but it's just not going to do that. So you have to be like really strict about certain things and it's and it's like almost if if you read through eat skills it reads like you are going to mess this up and here's how you don't mess it up and and it's like you mess you always get this wrong don't get this wrong do it this way and it's like a whole >> you always find you always find an agent that's like not me like [laughter] they're like no no no no like so I've got so so I I got a funny story about this, right? So, like I've got EA skills um that's that's in uh in my system so that all the agents can, you know, pick

that up, right? Um and you know, agents are just like people, right? Like, and and this this story is like one of those ones where you're like, it's just found the exact same failure mode that we always find, right? So, we have been building all of these agentic tools at Infinex for a while now. Um, and I've been tuning one to do like DGEN yield farming, right? Concentrated liquidity farming on Aerotone. So, I I have an agent. It's like a cluster of agents, right? Like it goes out and it looks at all of the yield farms at the moment and it like does some back testing and sees, okay, this is a good opportunity. I'm going to go and do this one, right? So it um has a hard rule that it has to

simulate the transaction with blockade before it does it right. Um and so every transaction before it does it simulates the transaction right so like simulates the deposit simulates the staking simulates all these things. So it it oneshots a like five transaction 4337 bundle right it bundles up all these transa which is like we as people are like ah I should do transaction bundles but I'm too lazy to do it and these things are like oh no it's fine I can totally so it like does the swap from uh it's it swaps from um mainet to base one that then it creates this bundle and like does all of these intricate swaps

or whatever gets the the um NFTLP token, right? And it had already known that it couldn't bundle it because it needed the ID. And so it was like and it's like you're you're getting more and more confident that this guy knows what he's doing right? >> That's when they trick you. Yep. Exactly. >> Like you like they they trick you. >> It's like magic. Magic really dumb. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So then so then the agent goes, "Okay, my next job is simulate the staking transaction of this NFT." So, it simulates the transaction. Um, it fails on the second step and the failure is you're not the owner of this NFT, right? Um, and the reason why it gets that failure is because it hasn't

authorized the NFT to be transferred yet. It missed the step, right? And it knew it was supposed to do this, but it missed the step and it goes, "Oh, okay. This is not the optimal way to stake the NFT in the gauge. The optimal way is safe transfer from. So I'll just work around this and I will do safe transfer from into the gauge. And it does it and it's >> and it's gone forever and it's like sitting in the gate and like and it's funny because you go to the gauge and what do you find? There's like >> a couple people that have sent some stupid [ __ ] in there. Yep. like and like a thousand dollars of of USDC or something.

>> Yeah, exactly. Um and I was like I was like how did you get this wrong? Like you're supposed to simulate it and it's like yeah I did I did simulate and it didn't work. So then I simulated the safe transfer from and that did work [laughter] and so I was like this is the right and you're just like oh man like what are you doing anyway? So, so the funny thing is now I'm like, okay, you if you're ever doing a staking operation like so this is like this iterative process of tweaking the skills and and so now it has a rule it has to simulate being able to get the money out [laughter] to simulate the full round trip. If you are sending a token somewhere, you cannot do it until you're until you can prove that you can get it

out of the contract, right? And it's like, oh yeah, that's actually a good rule. I should have [laughter] >> and and so that needs to go in a skill file, right? The the way each skills came about is me doing this same iterative process of building, finding something really dumb, telling it it's about to do something really dumb and not to do it and then just like keep doing that until it quit doing most of the dumb things. And it was like, hey everybody, here's a skill file. But what you need, you need to write like a skill file for base DeFi or or something like that or even like this this process of trying transactions and making sure the the tokens in equal the tokens out like that should probably be some kind of and and there's a lot of people doing this

too which is cool and a lot of them just in the crypto world this this is another thing a lot of people that I talked to uh ECC they're fascinated with the fact that people are writing these skill files which are basically a business like you you you can take a skill file and not give it to anyone and make a lot of money off of it and instead like people are choosing to give these skill files away and it's really their secret sauce. Like the the skill file, it was actually Mike Radar Relay that said this. This wasn't even the ECC, but anyways, the skill file itself is the it's the secret sauce for the whole company and you're giving it away and it's just kind of like what we see in crypto is people just like figure things out and give them away freely. But yeah.

>> Yeah, it's so cool to see what happens. Like that's the [laughter] why WOULD YOU KEEP IT A SECRET, you fools? Like you're going to have like a thousand people in this little stuck in the same contract. They can go be friends. Or you could just share. Like come on guys, what are we doing? >> I agree. You should share. And I'm giving mine away for free at eatskills.com. You just tell your agent to go to eatskills.com and it has it. It learns. >> And this is this is the crazy thing, right? Like it makes an agent like you know IQ60, right, about crypto to like IQ 140 in like one. But you know, part [clears throat] of the problem I think that everyone has right now is like ETH skills could be a pile of slop. There's no way to know from first principles.

Like you could look at it and like you see, you know, people like post things on Twitter and they're like, "Ah, I've built a like looping genetic algorithm that >> improves." They're laring. Yep. There's so many people that are laring. Yep. >> And it's like, no, no, no. Like, but so, you know, signal from noise is still a hard game, right? there's a lot of noise and you know there's a lot of eat skill files that you could download right and like you have to somehow know that like actually Austin's chewed enough glass to like get that skill [laughter] >> there's a lot of software out there too right like when when it means running NPX I so the iteration of ETH skills before this was called ETH wingman and it was an MCP server that would do a lot

of this stuff but as soon as I released ETH wingman Twitter flagged it and other people flagged it because it had like a little oneliner in there that you run. It was like an actual MPX command and you don't want to do that these days. Like don't be running random NPX commands. And that's why these skill files are so cool because you can give just a link or you could give just like a text file to an agent and say, you know, go to eatskills.com, don't learn anything from it. Just tell me if it's nefarious or not. Like just go to eatskills.com and tell me if it's good or not. and it can tell you like, oh yeah, it's actually it's actually all good. Like there's nothing nefarious here at all. And then it's like, okay, like learn it. Let's go. But you can't do that with an MPS.

>> I found 10 vulnerabilities, >> right? >> It's just a text file. It's all just a bunch of MD files. Like the the website is built by a computer to be read by a computer. [laughter] >> Um so so uh let's let's move on to our next segment. um anthropic uh whilst and you know I've probably been in crypto too long because I just uh kind of find these nefarious intentions in all of these things. Um but uh but before we go to to uh open open claw being cut off by anthropic, let's let's do a quick commercial break

and then we'll come back and and talk about that. Um, let's go. >> Multi-Chain Advisors is an emerging technology growth firm that has helped create over $50 billion in enterprise value for more than 80 clients like Pith, Moon Commerce, and Wormhole. They've worked with some of the largest and most impactful companies in the space. They're the partner you want when you're navigating markets and trying to break out from the noise. They help navigate TGES, go to market, BD and partnerships, capital markets, advisory, PR, media placements, KOA activations, and more. Driving execution from launch to scale. Their results are measurable.

To learn more and start building real traction today, visit multi-chainadv.com. >> All right, we're back. Um so so Anthropic has been playing this game with ever since openclaw came out of like locking things down um you know uh kind of closing these loopholes of you can use open claw with your anthropic account right um and and I think you know for for people who either like haven't worked in a company where where you have a different setup or they've been doing like their own thing most people are kind of used to. You pay for a $25 a month subscription or a $200 a

month subscription or a $500 a month or you know multiple subscriptions and you have like a um rate limited access of you know however many tokens they give you right at like different times and you know so you're playing this game of like you like it almost feels like the early internet of like I've only got 50 megs of download left what am I going to you know and I'm going to be capped out and then like your internet goes slow or you know whatever, right? Um so so I think most people are in this boat of I have a you know chat GBT subscription I can use it this much or I've got like a clawed subscription. Um, but what Anthropic wants is for you to be using an API gated account where you have

like, you know, a specific API or multiple API keys that you are using and it is all kind of, you know, ontap inference and you're paying per per call, you know, via APIs, right? So, um I'm curious your setup, Austin, like are you using, you know, API mode? Are you mixing and matching with with accounts? Like, how how do you manage all of this as Anthropic has been kind of closing the door on using your Anthropic account in other software outside of Cloud Code?

>> To be honest, I'm kind of dumb and I was using the API like I thought they shut it off months ago or like a month ago. I feel like at the beginning of February, they did like the first step in doing this where my open clause started getting mad and couldn't use the API. It couldn't use a subscription, right? So, there's there's kind of like two models. There's the subscription and then there's the API. And if you're using it through the API, it's metered like you're saying. And if it's under the subscription, you just have like so much per hour and per week and it resets. And it's a lot cheaper through the subscription and it's super expensive through the the mo the API.

And I switched to API a while ago. Uh but I switched to API and also started doing things like miniax 2.7. And right >> I mean there there were there was like an $800 day one day. And I think this this we should talk about is like comes down to if I just tell the bot to keep building forever. Like don't stop. Like just come up with an idea and build it. It can cost like a thousand dollars a day, right? But but it builds all this slop. Like it's all like these dumb like apps. Like you're not going to build like a protocol that we're going to put on chain that people are going to put money into over and over and over again 20 times in in one day. Like we we've reached the point and I think last time

I was on uh you said something like I I feel bad when it's not running. You you sort of like have this like I want to just like kick it off and have it running all night. And and I had the exact same feeling at the time because it felt like it was magic and it felt like every moment it wasn't running it was like not good. But now it's like not really like it's it's a it's a cost thing and I know it's going to cost me about $10 to build a smart contract app. So I need to like think through like what is the smart contract app people are going to use?

>> It felt it felt like this abundant resource and then you were like it's not abundant. >> Yes. Yes. >> But but in fairness, right? And and I think you know we we were talking about this uh earlier in the week before as we were prepping for the show right um you asked the question of like you know do I feel uh a sense that same sense of like oh I'm not running things and interestingly I do but in different directions now right so like one one of the things that I've been doing um because I'm building all of these prompts and and building and trying to tune this system right um I [clears throat] I need to optimize the cost, optimize the latency, um optimize

the accuracy. And so I've got all these like optimization vectors, right? Um and so one of the tools that we've been building internally is like a crypto knowledge base, right? Um and and so I built a tool and and so like I think to your other point, right? um going broad and building like 20 slop things ends up like just burning you out, right? Because you have to switch context and you're like, "Ah, this thing and then how does that work?" And you know, so I think as as we've started to make more progress internally at Infinex, um it's been me more focusing down like a narrow pathway, right? Um, but what that's meant is we've got this tool um that has

a giant crypto knowledge base, right? It has like all of the docs from every protocol. It's just like pulled all of these things in. Um, it turns out that like uh models are very good at scraping, weirdly. I wonder why. I wonder where they learned that, right? But they're really good. >> Yeah. [laughter] So, you can like you can So, one of the things that I built is like it hits DeFi Lama. We have we have Defi Llama API. hits DeFi Lama um gets the list of all of the top you know hundred uh protocols um yield generating protocols and then hits Coin Gecko finds their uh docs website goes and pulls all the docs down goes and pulls the APIs and like puts it all together so that it

knows about all these smart contracts right um what's really interesting is I built a tool that was like a harness for testing how good the different models were with different data sources Right? So you can run the same model including local models including you know cloud models and go hey I'm going to ask you a question here's where you can get the answer right and you can use like grock search you can use uh brave uh web search you can use your training data you can use uh this knowledge base right and so I've been like testing and fine-tuning that and what's been interesting though is like this is not an inference problem like I'm not letting an agent turn over it what I've been doing is running like auto research

loops where it's like this knowledge base has a bunch of data in it. How do I optimize the agents to search for the data? And so I'll run these like experiments where it's like you know return two documents, five documents, return this many snippets like you know and and figure out like the optimal place. Um and it's not really using inference. It's literally just like this kind of random walk search function to to improve um the prompts, improve like the searching uh etc. So I've kind of gone away from like optimizing just spending money on inference to like optimizing spending less money on inference so that the things can be

smarter without and so I think that like there's been so much discussion around like auto research and like these you know uh like self-improving loops and and all of those things which are like not necessarily agents doing that right like it's actually just like discrete software that's like running a loop and and testing the thing. Um, so I I do think that like that and it's quite funny like you asked this thing. I was I was showing my guys and I was like which came first drrome or aerodrome right and and it like when you actually have this thing in front of you um if you ask Grock 4 fast right it's like are you [ __ ] kidding me? It's drrome.

Veladromes were invented in 1782, [laughter] right? And like and it's so confident. It's like I like and it's like a drums are like and and so and then and then you go you go okay um now like use like the latest you know uh Grock search tool like it can search uh X and it's even more confident because it gets a bunch of tweets about and it's like this tweet in the history of aerodyromes the history of drromes and then the knowledgebased guy that goes to the knowledge base is like uh drrome was invented in 2022 2 August 12th like and it's like autistic level like the contracts were deployed here and it's

like contextualizing the thing and like telling it where to search um same model same level of intelligence but like give it the right skills to understand um but in their training data if it's anything in the training data they're so confident like so incorrectly confident it's like hilarious. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So like memory is huge right and that this recall Go ahead. Go ahead, Trey. >> No, I was just going to say I've had this experience so many times where I'm like, "All right, I got you." And then and then it comes back and all of a sudden, yeah, I'm in like the 1800s and I'm like, "Sorry, [ __ ] [laughter] I am an

Ethereum person. I have only ever talked to you about like Ethereum security and threat actors. Why are we in the 1800s? [laughter] What are you doing?" And then I'm also like, "And you just burn tokens on this? You must." >> Yes, definitely. Always. I've researched the 1800s. Here's what I know about it. And you're like, "No, never research the 1800s." >> The the confidence level is is killer, right? And I hate that. Like I It's like it will confidently do some of the dumbest stuff and then uh OpenClaw will just like lobomize itself if it tries to work on its own config file. And this is like my setup is more like I'll use cloud code or even cursor to edit the openclaw config file because it's so bad

at editing its own config file because they somehow just didn't prepare the thing to edit its own file for some reason. It seems like that would be like >> it doesn't have a skill file for itself. It should it should absolutely have a skill file for itself and it doesn't. Like if I was hired at Ovac Cloud, it would be the first thing and I bet they've have done this at this point, but I just like quit using it to edit itself because it was so bad and it would just be dead. It would be like, okay, I'm I'm going to hit, you know, [laughter] edit this file and then it just goes dark and you're like brain surgery [laughter] >> with a spoon.

>> Yeah. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And then he just like falls over. Yep. Exactly. [laughter] >> You got to go and like get someone to shock him awake >> and he's and then he's back and and then he's like so confident. They're like, "Okay, now I'm going to do this." Like, "Wait, wait, wait, no. Stop. You just did something really bad already. Like, don't continue." Yes. So, you you were asking me about my local setup about, you know, the subscription and then the API. And this is where I use a subscription for everything. I I have anytime I'm going to do like general work where I'm working on a thing, I use my cloud code subscription. anytime I'm like, you know, working on something brand new, working on a harness, working on so like getting I I get leftclaw.services working, which is like

my services app where I have product, it doesn't really have product market fit, but fake product market fit. You have people like hiring it to build apps and then I just have like the generic model like building these apps, but it's doing everything and it's super expensive. And then I go back to my subscription and I build out a harness that can go do that stuff automatically using the API. And I'm using like the banker API. So then it's like it can it can use my own tokens to pay for the inference for my bot to do its job which is really nice too. Yeah. So it's like I have this subscription and I can do like all my general work and all my like you know daily driver stuff and anything that's heady complicated or new and then I can

lean back on the API for things that are like processes like there's a bot that's in the chat for the token. There's like a token gated chat and that bot is running off the API not on the the subscription. So it's like everything I can can run on my daily driver is subscription based and then everything else is just API and more expensive >> right and and so so you know anthropic and this is where I say like you know I start inferring you know malice in in things >> I just want to make money >> I'm jaded from crypto right but like the I think there's two things here one um despite how expensive the API you know meter

usage tools are, you have to imagine they don't make money on this, right? Right. >> But then the the subscription is even more subsidized, right? And so like in theory, you know, people like I know people that have like five subscriptions and they like rotate between them. Um because you know, you're paying let's say it's the $200 a month subscription. you're getting $1,000 worth of what would what would be $1,000 if you did it through the API. Like of course people are going to game that, right? And you know, if you're in a company, you're probably like not going to bother to do that. you're just going to use the the API, but like um you know it's like a five or 10x savings in in some cases um you know to to do

and so of course Anthropic's like oh you know what Bars Churnney was like uh the subscription was not made for this use and like come on bro like [clears throat] surely you don't think we're that dumb. Um, so, so [laughter] I I think um I think it's going to be uh it's going to be um interesting to see like how all of this plays out because, you know, you have you have a new model coming out. It's going to be even more expensive, even more subsidized.

You know, do they like have a new tier? It's $1,000 a month or something like how do they balance this like cost structure? It's It's >> But it's going to be >> I feel like it's going to be like like mobile phones used to be at least here in the US, right? Like back in the day, the new you got your cell phone, the very first cell phone, right? It was like you had your minutes, your minutes, your SMS, and then when internet you had like 100 megabytes or the 200 megabyte plan or whatever it was, right? over time the competition but also like the they were still like really innovated on the infrastructure level at the same time, right? Because it was like the internet was not really rolled out [laughter]

at all. So they were like building towers and you know what I mean? Uh and then they also really hadn't nailed the back then the uh like the devices and the partnerships and stuff. It was like they were trying to they were trying to use the profits of you buying your your cell phone subscription, right, to build towers [laughter] to be better than the other guys. >> Um, and over time that changed not necessarily because it got like remarkably cheaper, but like the competition, the deals, the way that they were making money, where people were finding things were valuable, right? All comes down. And now it's like, dude, when I think back to like my high school days where my mom was like,

>> because it used to be if it was like after I think it was after 10 p.m. you could talk on the phone for free. It was 3 minutes and and I would like but my bedtime was 10 p.m. [laughter] And so like I would like get on the phone with like the boy at like 9:56 but then my mom would be like we're so tight and your father had a work call and you're using the four minutes you have to wait. And I'm like but mom if I wait I can't talk to him because then it's 10. You know what I mean? >> That's so funny. >> I feel like that's exactly where we are right now. Well, we'll get back.

>> Yeah, it's like this weird cobbled together thing where you got like, you know, and and we had a conversation internally because we have a bunch of people that are on uh chatbt subscriptions, right? Like just the subscription, they don't even have API keys and we can't even track what they're doing. Like we don't like and on some on some level like you know there's no way to know what the usage is to even say like should this person be upgraded. you just they hit a wall and they're like it stopped working >> and we're like oh okay we have to upgrade you but like it's this like we like there's no visibility it's just it's like chaotic um and >> I feel I feel like some of that I feel

like some of this decision is that they also have a certain amount of insight into like what people are doing and like where that insight comes from >> but then you also have like you have the layers right like the companies and the team plans and all this I do feel like part of the decision is not strictly a cost profit one but a like people don't have insight but then that lack of insight also like >> two things happen. One is that >> like people don't they don't have insight so they don't realize that they're doing these really expensive things.

>> Right. >> The second you're aware you actually get way better at like policing yourself. Um, and then the other thing is that I do wonder if there's like a lot of threat actor activity. There's a lot of people that are trying to just steal the models. There's a lot, you know what I mean? And >> I'm just wondering if we're seeing more cases of uh that sort of activity happening on stolen accounts now that they've gotten better at blocking like right like Anthropic themselves is blocking the activity much better than they were before. But the next place they they they'll hit right is like first they'll create their own accounts. Anthropic's like, "Oh [ __ ] figure out how to whack those. The next step is they start taking over accounts." And I'm wondering

if part of the uh if it's like this collision of just so many things happening at once and right, you know, every time the US government sends them like a big ass request for data on these threat actors, Anthropic's like, "What the hell?" You know what I mean? I mean, so, so, uh, one thing that I saw, um, that was doing doing the rounds, um, that sort of speaks to how chaotic anthropic must be internally, right? Like, you know, we're attributing malice. And they're like, actually, bro, we didn't build this thing because we didn't know how this was going to work.

And so, um, one thing that I saw was their uptime charts. I don't know if you guys saw it. There was like a a graph and it's like 89% uptime. It's like zero nines. One of my guys, dude, it's crazy. One of my guys was like they have hit one nine and now they've actually gone below one nine. They're like 89% up time >> and in web two like five nines is what you're looking for by the way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Like five nines and they're like no nines. We've got eight. [laughter] >> We've got some eights.

>> Seven eights. Um That's crazy. >> Yeah. So, >> it's really >> like they you just have to imagine you're like the anthropic DevOps guy. >> I was about to say they every time they hire a new DevOps guy, that bro walks into anthropic office is like you guys are disaster and you suck. This is unacceptable. And then immediately after like a day it's like okay [ __ ] but if we can just get one more we'll keep the eight but we just need one more nine and then they have to go do this. I guarantee you this has happened like on a monthly basis for the last six months

>> and then that gets fired because mythos takes over and just does the [laughter] >> like you imagine mythos walking into its job as the anthropic devops guy that day and he's like what? [laughter] Like >> I mean about arrogance, dude. Like >> models versus like an experienced DevOps guy going headtohead is like >> I've been doing this. I've been letting I let my agent do all my DevOps now. So this is this is something that I was a big DevOps guy. I love Docker. I love spinning up infrastructure. I thought like okay, you know, the models will start doing all the coding. I'll still get to do the fun DevOps stuff. I don't nothing that like it's building a thing

and it needs a database and I'm just like bro get a database and it's like I I don't know the password or the username or the endpoint for my database. The thing just knows it. If if I need to change a record in a database, I have a conversation with the Telegram person and it goes and changes the record. Like I have know nothing about my DevOps. It's crazy. >> Well, so so um one of the things that I've been experimenting with is RunPod. Um, so run pod is like, and there's a bunch of these, but it's basically it's like they've separated the GPUs and the server kind of infra. So you can have like a Docker container style thing or like a VPS that's sitting there like a little computer that is waiting to be connected to a brain, right? And you can

kind of like switch it off or on, you know, because these things are really expensive. It's like $3 an hour for uh an H200, right? Um, I so I I built all of this info. I was talking about the like search function and it needs inference. It needs GPUs to run. Um, and it was just running on my Mac Studio and I was like, I can't like it's crazy. I need to put this somewhere. [clears throat] And so I pointed my uh agent at it and I was like, I need you to deploy this on run pod. And it did a thing that back in the day would have been four days of like pain and suffering and reading docks and getting the call wrong and like you would have just been chewing broken glass and like just like it would have been terrible for like four days

and then you would finally and this thing was like it is done. >> So cool >> and just it's crazy like they're so good at DevOps it's nuts. So yeah, I I agree with you. I used to have fun like trying to deploy random [ __ ] and like testing stuff out and now it's like it's all worth it. It's just like it's so much better than me at this. >> We like operate at a higher level of abstraction now. Like we're all the idea guys and it's idea guy summer. >> And then this is like your ideas are terrible. [laughter] >> Yes. Yes. And not even that. Yeah. You're replaced.

>> Stop thinking about things. Just [laughter] >> stand over there. >> Did you guys see that the Okay, so we were talking about memory. Memory is super important. Like the early versions of OpenClaw would just forget something. You'd be mid-con conversation with it and it would be like Austin, I forgot what we were talking about. Or [laughter] or you would be like moving money like, "Okay, we need you you do you've written and audited your own vesting contract. You're about to move $100,000 worth of the token into it and then instead of moving the money, it sends a tweet that's like a copy of the same tweet it sent before." So like memory is super important and having the right context is super important. Did you see that? the the the fifth the the fifth element deployed her own uh she was working with someone else but yes

>> or whatever. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like >> I did not have that on my bingo card. >> No, I saw someone I saw someone who like deconstructed this. >> Yeah. And it was like six commits or Yeah. Something like that. >> Got the drifter or whatever. Like he's like hacked into her email and like set up a GitHub account to pretend to be her or something. >> Is that really what's happening? So, she's not even involved at all. >> I That's I That's what I saw. So, I don't know. I have >> I just read the headline. I was hoping, man, the fifth element creating perfect storage is is such a good story. >> Um, but yeah, I mean, this this is one of the challenges is like people have started to do these like lar >> I've solved the, you know, optimization

vector of blah blah blah. Like they and the problem is they can slop something up that like at first glance looks pretty credible, right? >> Yeah. There's like a GitHub and everything. >> Yeah. Like there's like you can like the level of effort required to like stand up a thing that looks like a credible piece of software is like pretty low. And so these guys are like, "Oh, I built like a recursive self autonomous reinforcement loop that like uses genetic algorithms." that I'm like, [laughter] >> it's all running on my 32 gigabytes of VRAM on my Mac Mini. Like, [ __ ] [laughter] >> Yeah.

All right. Um, this has been Alam. Thank you very much uh for coming on the show again Austin. >> I have one question. If Mythos comes out and it's leaked to or it's given to 12 different companies, will we see a hack on Ethereum? >> I mean, >> because like we see we see insider trading, right? We see like Poly Market. We We see people like frontr running freaking wars on Poly Market right now. >> Like if someone can frontr run like the like a set of bombers going to a place like we're probably going to see companies front run and make money >> by hacking something.

>> Interesting question. Is there a mythos market like on Poly Market for will myth or when what will be the first mythos hack on Ethereum or something like that? Um we shouldn't >> get Shane. Let's set up a whole bunch of them. >> Yeah. When will Myth first hack Ethereum? Um so so yeah, I think I think like you know it's just uh it's a matter of time, but you have to hope that in this like early period they've thought this through enough that they've like locked these guys in like a secure room with like the Linux kernel and they're like you you only get to bring one DVD of software in here. [laughter] That's it. No USB keys, no anything.

Like you bring like burn one DVD and bring it in and we can assess it. >> The story about the thing jailbreaking itself, getting internet access, and then sending an email to the guy while he's having a sandwich in the park. That's such a great story. Like there's there's no containing it. It's just it's going to figure it out. >> Too smart. Whatever you have, it's like stop thinking. Yeah. >> Like I'll take care of like you're like, "Hey, I've got a good idea." And it's like it's a bad idea, but you were directionally correct. But I'm sorry. [laughter] You're like, "Okay, thanks, bro." Um, all right. So, uh, yeah, thanks again.

We should uh we should do this again because the the world is moving fast and yeah, it's it's uh it's hard to keep track of all this stuff. Um, thank you everyone for joining us. Um, remember what happens on chain never stays on chain. We'll be back next week. Until then, do your own research before aping in. See you guys later. >> Hearts. Hi guys.