Hating on Crypto (With Love) | Felix Jauvin & James Christoph

Transcript

i think if you if you went to like a traditional TRFI investor and you tried to explain like you know labs governance token foundation and kind of the handwavy science that they're not all related and you know they're they're totally independent like you'd be laughed out of the room and within 5 seconds someone would be like yeah I have no interest in buying this you know what I mean like we kind of like delude ourselves into thinking that it's normal but I I just like I don't know i just don't think it is [Music] nothing said on Zerox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens this podcast is forformational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions not financial advice pokio Ryan and our guests may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed

what's up guys welcome back to another episode of Xerx Research today is a very special episode um first of all we have all of the podcast hosts but more importantly we have James Kristoff um who's an avid podcast listener and an avid hater on Twitter as well um James do you want to give a short anonymized introduction of who you are and why you're angry and then we can get get into the podcast thank you for that warm welcome i thought it was pretty nice when I met you in person but that's that's fine i can have the uh the hater moniker for the podcast that's okay um yeah I've been in TRD 5 the last 10 years or so um mainly within the equity derivative space and also a little bit of um structured lending um been in crypto

since like 2019 pretty basic stuff like mainly just you know long majors here and there um and some yield farming stuff nothing like super super exotic um but obviously love the podcast so happy for uh happy for you guys to have me on i promise not to hate too much very good we're very happy you're here and um you say not very exotic but the reality is that we don't really get a lot of [ __ ] trad faces over here um unlike Felix which is all he gets so this is going to be a a good episode for Xerx Research um I uh I want this to be kind of a questions episode mainly because I'm tired and it's very late here but so I'm going to start it off with um what are

you all doing on chain in crypto and how's everybody positioned um in terms of risk assets in general and we can I I can pick um James you can start yeah so I think like so me and Westy were actually pretty active in the chat being angry bears for the last like two months or so specifically within the ZeroX chat um I think like one of the funny things about crypto is like it's still that one industry that gives you really hilarious and somewhat obvious top signs that in hindsight you're like "Wow that was really obvious." And then that happens like 10 times in a row and you still kind of kick yourself for like

not following them right so like the the Trump memecoin to me was like just the most obvious thing in the entire world i won't I won't pretend that I that I caught it completely like completely accurately i think I sold most of my BTC like probably average price of like I don't know 95 or 97 to me um but like going into it and I think and Felix and Quinn did a super good job on this on their podcast like pre-election right it was like you're trading around 60K and the huge narrative of Trump being a potential winner was like very very mispriced at that point right so you had this huge election narrative of and like we repriced that so quickly right like within 3 weeks we were at whatever 90k

something like that um so like you had to kind of re-evaluate how much of that was priced in and who's I'm going to get in trouble with this one who's the marginal buyer post that um so I think really after Trump getting elected was just like kind of a sign to take a little bit of chips off the table so in terms of me like I'm sitting in a lot of cash right now honestly not doing much i don't think I've transacted on chain in the last like probably month or so um so kind of boring to be honest just seeing what's happening curious what you guys are up to guys please don't make me call out one more name i'll go ahead i'll go ahead i'll I'll I'll echo I'll actually echo a lot of what James is saying i think um I'm I'm

in a similar camp as James and Westy here where again the point about you know it being obvious after the fact but like at at the in that moment I think that the Trump sort of event was um a critical one especially for someone maybe a little bit more DGEN um trading a lot of meme coins i was looking at that like you know people were trading AI coins and Fartcoin and then Trumpcoin drops and goes to 70 billion FDV um and you know I think James you made a comment in the chat maybe a week or two ago around like you know two trades basically making the bulk of all the returns um for this you know past six months or whatever and I think that's pretty similar for me just based on what those

those opportunities looked like um and I think I'm sitting in a similar place now where coming out of January to February just more and more cash and less less risk um less crypto exposure um and I think today wanting to gamble but sitting around and going "Wow it's really not that exciting." Um you know buying some Gibli token here and there because it's the the meme of the day but otherwise kind of touching grass for the time being the weather's getting nice outside so just enjoying it um well I won't toot my horn too much so thanks for doing that for me James but um yeah you know I got pretty bearish in December i won't get too deep into the macro on this episode because for once I could just talk pure crypto and DJ stuff

which is exciting for me so um but really there was a pretty big tonal shift in the Fed in December where they were pretty much hellbent on being somewhat complacent and slow to react to what I felt like was a slowing economy um at the same time that I felt like marginally way too much excitement and expectations were baked into the BTC price post-election heading into inauguration that it was just impossible in my mind for the reality to live up those expectations so yeah I I got a lot off my book at that time um been mostly hanging out in cash but um I'm starting to buy a few things slowly over time here right now that I think I'm I'm willing to hold another 40% lower 30 30 40% lower knowing that in a couple years

I think it's going to do really well and really what I'm focused on is stable coins i've been kind of joking that I just feel like Thanos right now trying to gather the the infinity stones of stable coins but yeah I've you know I've been buying on the open market um a and maker i just saw I'm sure we're going to talk about this but Circle's going to IPO pretty excited about that um couple private things but really I'm just focused on stable coins really um super excited on that um buying a little bit of Bitcoin still pretty cash heavy but slowly making my way back in but with a pretty long time horizon and knowing that it's going to bleed somewhere here like I'm not interested in buying on perks or something and just eating up on on

funding but it feels like a time where it's it's time to slowly start thinking about some longs but definitely don't need to be in any rush ryan give me a please give me a bull take bro hey that wasn't that bearish from my part come on i could have I could have been the macro doomer here bull take yeah i mean I think there's a there's a lot of really exciting things in the market right now i think some of the lenders are super cheap after this selloff i think if you want to go to the 52- week low list there's a lot of like really good fundamental names in there that have strong moes i think we're in this very interesting point in the cycle or sorry not the cycle like the history of crypto where for the first time you

kind of like have the floodgates opened on capital and like you can actually start thinking about the incumbents and compounding their leads um there are incumbents in the lead with real teams who don't want who like aren't scams who don't want to sell their tokens and leave who actually like are in Washington pushing policy and like cementing their lead within the crypto space like I think that that's super exciting because it's the it's potentially one of the easiest crypto kind of like um like macro environments so to say where you can actually just buy a token and hold it for a long period of time given like that those kind of tailwinds so yeah super exciting um we like it when prices are lower and like what is it nvidia's like 30% off

the high Meta's 20% off their high um there's a lot of really good names that are finally giving you that chance and if you look at the long-term you know history of risk markets you get a 20% draw down you might go to 40 but 20 is really nice and you perhaps only get one of those every few years so yeah I think that this is great for you know fundamentals driven investors this reminds me of that old like Kobe up onlyly podcast a few years back where he talks about the importance of you know staying interested during the boring bits which like kind of to me the last 3 months or so seems pretty boring like everyone got washed out it's generally

like kind of suicide mode on CT um so I think yeah like like right now it's super super important even if you're not taking positions or doing interesting stuff to kind of stay involved with what's going on cuz you know like as quick as that you know the narrative can shift and we could be like you know back at 125k in a split second yeah people usually I think overestimate how long it takes for us to just go back up um they're like "Oh we need 12 to 18 months to resolve this." No we don't we definitely don't um Ryan in terms of looking at these like assets and everybody else please also chime in do you think the buyer of these cuz the buyer for Bitcoin has changed the buyer for ETH hasn't changed there are no buyers um do you think the buyer for I

guess like DeFi will change eventually where it's more from because typically it's very narrative based maybe three months um that's like the time horizon do you think we're going to see a shift in I guess like who's buying these and why they're buying them and their time frame yeah uh because of where we sit in the market we get to talk to a lot of funds on the liquid and venture side and on the venture side if you are an equity only venture fund uh or sorry uh you know if you're a private market investor you're actually considering tokens right now for kind of the reasons I highlighted ear earlier if you look at these businesses they look like late stage growth or you know growth businesses that you'd buy in the venture

market so people are considering tokens they know the upside um that um they can achieve and because I think some of these venture funds have really underperformed since 2021 I think tokens are probably looking attractive to them where they have LPs that might be getting a little impatient um I forget the name of the individual who does the survey but there is a um there's someone who does like a crypto market investor survey where they basically like reached out to a bunch of LPs and they were like "Hey when do you think you're going to deploy capital?"

And this was like done shortly after the election and they said summer of 2025 so you know that might not that might have might not have been on the timeline of like typical crypto investors who are thinking in like sub three-month increments i think LPs are thinking longer term and they're going to allocate capital liquid token funds and those guys are going to buy tokens and it's going to impact the prices so um do you really think that like VCs can get away with telling their LPs like "Hey we're going to chuck 5% we're going to call capital from you and chuck 5% into like a and just hold it and whatever stake it and get some yield."

Yeah I think they're already doing it uh PWC did a study i reference it all the time is in the deaths of the bear in 2023 and um they asked hedge funds like what percentage of your book is um is tokens and 33% had a nonzero allocation to tokens in the depths of the bear so like tokens are on the minds of these funds um you know I don't think it's going to happen overnight i think it's going to be a pretty slow burn um you know they're going to go to a half a percent then 1% and then like there's some topping like you know maybe they get as high as 5% like who knows but it'll happen on time frames that I think you know most dens aren't comfortable

with but it'll happen for sure yeah I feel like the big question at hand here is okay if they're going to get in the front of things here and face this you know train coming at them do they decide to buy fully allnot coins or coins where they're just the the buyer of emissions from other VCs right i feel like that's a big question at hand and I know that it feels like the question for a lot of people right it's just like okay do I come in and you know buy Hyperliquid buy these DeFi coins that are fully unlocked or do I try to get in front of the sexy new narratives but then I also have to fight these endless unlocks and yeah I'm curious if you guys have heard like what side of the aisle they want to sit on for that

i'm sure Ryan can have a better take on this but I I feel like I was seeing a lot more buy the unlocks style of deals where there's like oh there's an unlock coming up in October and then they're just selling off that unlock um versus now I feel like I see a lot more people who are actively building out these like lists of oh I need to get into JO and like oh I need to get into a U although I think that's mostly anecdotal and I'm not sure if that's exactly what it is i do think there's been kind of a shift in how people think of tokens um like when there's a bear the emissions really start to feel like people can really start to feel the emissions and like when there aren't any new buyers coming in so things like a and hyperlquid like

you mentioned they they look a lot better because the unlocks are less the teams are they just have like you can sense that there's a different energy that the team of like a and hyperlquid and god I even shout on a last week but like even they bring a better energy than someone like movement does to their token and to their project so I feel like the the buyer there um like they can really feel that as opposed to what it has historically been i think how much size are you seeing in that like for for funds that you guys are talking to that are buying tokens like how how low is the ceiling in terms of like actual capital you think that can be deployed there okay we can't do scythe talk versus frat five people

because the it's just it's not it's never comparable like it just genuinely no um I do think the biggest funds are three billion in assets like it's not a no that's a that's a big fund my point is like you you can I'm saying you can write a big check for like mega eth or something is in the frame of reference like pre pre-product but like it's more difficult for that same VC to just chuck that into like a I think and justify that to their LPS like I feel like that's a weird conversation to have like you're you're locking up capital for 10 years and some guy's like "Yeah I'm just going to buy hyperlquid like tokens." I don't know seems a little odd oh you mean on the venture side yeah exactly like venture side pivoting to like just

buying liquid unlocked tokens like it's a weird value prop like I feel like the LPS would probably not sign up to that you know what I mean shroudfy LPS I totally agree there is some push back to that um the funds that I've talked to you know they seemed excited about it so I don't you know I think it's on a fund by fund basis um we've also talked to ones that are lean more trady so you can think of like some trady names in crypto that are clearly uncomfortable with mixing liquid and privates um so I think it's on a case- by case basis the interesting trend in crypto venture is that like a lot of these guys are spinning up the liquid token funds now over the last 6 to 12 um and they're getting the capital from

somewhere right so um you know we'll see sometimes I think something kind of I don't know if this is illegal but something slightly illegal happens where the VC fund ends up passing off some of their investments to the liquid fund i don't know if that's allowed i don't know like I've just heard of one or two instances of where it has happened um but yeah I have heard more and more that well I mean I think you can also see this like there's more and more liquid funds on just speaking their minds on Twitter i like an you can just see more and more participate versus before it was like purely VC diet tribes now it's like people actually writing out investment fees and what they want to do and like unlquid tokens

um yeah I agree with you right on everything you said how do you guys feel about like I I think a big factor at play here in the liquid market especially with with crypto today is all of these governance coins there's there's like this classic utility versus governance but it's all like not really utility yet like I think we still have this this issue of like labs verse DAO or labs verse you know decentralized entity here um and that and that has to play into like a decision around any one of these like what's the history of like the DAO versus the labs entity who's who's like winning out in this arrangement do you actually want to buy this token because it's going to see the

benefit of like the revenues of the protocol in the future or is the labs just like sucking this project dry i feel like this has been like a a bit of a hot topic maybe lately with some of the announcements around like the A and Navara thing um Arbitum and its gaming proposal from from a while back i don't know what are you guys thoughts there i I think Trifi solves this i think Trifi Capital coming into the space those those guys don't have the patience for this so like if if summer is that time frame when like sophisticated allocators get like cuz I saw this stat recently about small venture funds which I think most 99% of crypto funds qualify as that they they don't get their capital from allocators they get it from

people they know who got rich in in technology and that's a different LP base it's um much more risk-seeking um it's um they're checking far less boxes and they're demanding a lot less from the funds so I think as that mix starts to shift in the summer of this year if that survey is true then the then the funds are going to LPs are going to demand a certain level of competence from the funds and then the funds are going to demand um um fewer conflicts of interest between equity and labs or sorry uh labs and uh token yeah I think if you if you went to like a traditional TRFI investor and you tried to explain like you know labs governance token foundation and kind of the handwavy

science that they're not all related and you know they're they're totally independent like you'd be laughed out of the room and within 5 seconds someone would be like "Yeah I have no interest in buying this." You know what I mean like we kind of like delude ourselves into thinking that it's normal but I I just like I don't know i just don't think it is and I don't think Yeah but they also make buy side and sellside research walls feel normal too so you know they're guilty as well that's very true i will say this isn't really our fault on the crypto side um I think this is probably due to overregulation over the past four to five years and it's not like this um I guess utility stuff all of that I think is just related to

mismanagement from the regulatory side as I I think I agree with you guys i think it'll get resolved um hopefully over the next few it's just ridiculous you can't be like the founding team and be like I'm actually going to build out a separate product keep 85% of the revenue on that good luck like that's that to me seems like the stupidest thing that you can do and to post this publicly and say "Hey guys make sure to vote for this after spending two years building a social on Polygon." I think that's ridiculous um it's also not a good track record that like you can you can be told that there's going to be a TGE and like without even having too much detail behind what the project does you can estimate with like a near

certain probability that over 18 months like the token's going to asmtoically go to zero right with unlocks like until that changes I think and until there's like an actual token that after TGE has like a sustained bid it's just going to be like the same thing over and over and over and over again but that's like until they stop making money on that it's just going to be over and over and over again and I think this cycle they're finally stopping a bit like we'll see in the next six months but as far as I've seen it doesn't like tokens haven't been the ones with big unlocks haven't been performing that well like Celestia is the best example of this i mean they're still up like 400x to be fair so not that bad but

um All right switching it slightly this will give Felix a chance to show his private private market i want to talk about stable coins i didn't even give the tickers come on um I want to talk about stable coins and I want to talk about what we think stable coins look like in 12 months because I honestly don't have any idea and then apart from that I also want to hear stable coin exposure ideas um who wants to go first ryan can you go first or yeah you can go first okay um I don't know i Yeah I've been thinking a lot about stable coins in terms of just its Trady representation

and and what's actually like different versus now um and yeah like what are they they're digital global versions of money market funds where they hold either T bills or repo or other cashlike equivalents like that with a yield and the magic that happened is over the past four years we went from Zer era to 5% and wherever we're at now four and a half% and yeah it's it's a really interesting situation and I'm curious as we talk about the regulatory environment for these but you know we're going into this world where stable coins are owning most like I said mostly T bills earning four or five% every year and you know none of the at least the uh the widely

accepted ones like Tether and USC the big ones provide any of that yield to the asset owner obviously you know if you have USC and you have it on Coinbase you can get a percentage of that or something a fraction of it but overall like the big game is that they're making a ton of money because they get to keep the entire yield and it it it's quite similar obviously to banks where traditionally you know you're supposed to provide an interest rate to your bank deposits um and then you just lend on the long end but that's always a risk because they the bank deposits have an option to be withdrawn and brought to money market funds and earn the full yield there whereas here if it's you know global stable coin holders they don't have as access to those type of facilities so

effectively it's it's just the cost of doing business for being able to have global exposure to US dollars without being in the US and and without you know going through those traditional like swift rails etc so in the meantime it creates this really interesting environment where the stable coin issuers like Tether etc make a ton of money because they get to keep the entire yield and now it's even getting to the point where I think I saw in the Genius Act that they're making it so that having any sort of yield on a stable coin is not allowed so that's just basically formalizing the idea that these issuers just make an absolute [ __ ] ton of money and cannot even pass it on to their their holder base and that's just an insane value proposition and business model considering the the little like

cost expenses associated with that um obviously we can get into the macro side of things of how I think about that as being a buyer of debt but yeah it's a it's a phenomenal business model um and I think it's great overall for like the US dollar reserve hedgeimony you know it's it's it's going to make US dollar reserve currency even stronger i I hosted a panel at DAS with with Austin Campbell who's big stable coins guy and he thinks that every other currency is going to be gone within eight years and it's just going to be some derivative of US dollars so yeah interesting times i love that um I I yeah the kind of a mantra that we've said internally is um that crypto accelerates dollar dominance

that is a very cool tale outcome like it's obviously like exporting dollars in to other countries via regulatory arbitrage over the internet is really really cool um I don't think anyone's kind of there are national defense implications that come from that right like countries do not want that to happen i think that that's super interesting so one thing I wanted to bring up is like I am like incredibly bullish on stable coin propagation like if you told me it 10x's total market cap in the next two years I'd believe you um I just think like once you get to the point where you have mass utilization like that to your average person who's not cryptonative the idea of spending money whatever via gas fees whatever to

send dollars is going to seem very very weird to them compared to like Cash App Zel Venmo like that that friction seems very unnatural to me and I'm not sure how people can kind of rationalize that and that's one of the reasons I do kind of think like down the road Box's going to kill me for this that banks are going to kind of take over like native stable coin issuance and just build this into the back end and it's just going to be like Venmoing someone or selling someone on like a private blockchain um and they're going to you know just hide the cost from the user cuz your average person like telling them they want to send USDC on arbitrum when gas fees are high and it cost you four bucks like it just doesn't work and I just don't know how people are going to like rationalize

that no that's very you you're kind of teeing up Felix for the plasma [ __ ] yeah I'm literally fighting for my life not to shield my bags here but I'm not going to do it but there's things out there where there might be Yeah gas retransactions i don't know i've heard about that another Sorry go ahead no I think it makes a lot of sense i think we said on a few pods back maybe it might have been as far back as six months ago but like the checking account savings account and like transferring money flow from one thing to another and seeing some friction there is a very familiar consumer flow and in that context it makes sense for there to be private L2 type things where you would do your

transactions and then the investment activity happens on like Salana base layer or something like that like they they like the Ethereum actually got it the reverse right they wanted to push the general execution to the L2s actually like payments and non-contentious transactions for state that don't need to be like hyper optimized should go to that network and then you keep all the activity on the L1 yeah you can do gasless on plasma I'll show it for you Felix plasma has gasless transactions also base has USDC transfers um I think it's free gas right any Yeah they're I mean they're doing a lot of things i don't know if they're all gasless but I know that they have

like some SDKs where you can if you're an app builder you can set up subsidized transaction fees for your users so um obviously if you're the business operating there then that would be the ideal end state i think you know they're kind of they're laying out the framework there especially with you know allowing fees to be paid in in any currency as well like breaking up the like paying ETH for these gas fees and doing it any currency for these you know if it's protocols or if it's institutions that are going to do that for the sake of their users behind the scenes um it just makes a lot of sense i want to hear um I want to hear James' take on Athena because you know we're talking as we evolve more into more DJ

stable coins like you know do you even think of it as a stable coin because I know like myself personally when I see something like that it's like okay it's a it's a structured product of a basis trade together that's super easy and I'm like sweet I like that as a product the part of it being a stable coin that's you know tied to that there's potentially some is is raw with issues is it even a stable coin but just on its own I'm really excited about but super curious about your take on it yeah we we chatted on this before and it's it's super interesting like the the first thing that I thought when it came out was like wow this is like super cool that someone can invest in this basically hedge fund strategy on chain um and then like if you guys remember as

soon as it launched there was like the hey it's a stable coin no it's not a stable coin it's a stable dollar which I think is what they finally settled with which is which is interesting um so like my main concern with Athena is again your your comment of you're basically taking a hedge fund strategy and you're you're saying the equity invested in that strategy is is a is as good as a dollar which like I just I don't think is true i don't think it's right um so you look at like borrow land markets like a where you can you know post USD USD borrow USDC and then just loop that like six times over right and in in many instances a lot of these markets are actually just coded to treat USD as if it's a dollar which is like

you know I think on its face a little nutty um and the interesting thing about basis trades is like because they're so levered and they're so recursive no one really knows exactly how they're going to operate under like market extreme market stress and I don't mean like the market selling off like 10% i mean like the market breaking entirely so we chatted about this a little bit on the side of like the Treasury basis trade right if if we draw this analogy back to like trad um and we shared the article of the Fed talking about hey should there be an emergency facility for this hedge fund basis trade which we don't really need to get into like super detail of what that is but it's it's not super dissimilar from Athena where where

you're shorting a future and you're long the spot and you're you're collecting the basis in between that um so I think the real danger there is just pretending in a borrow lend market that that is worth a dollar because it's worth a dollar now um yeah I think we've we've not seen anything remotely like like March 2020 for example within crypto world um I'd be curious what you guys think would happen in that scenario where you have to actually unwind Athena um you know it obviously did pretty well in in August there were no hiccups at all uh but I think that was a you know pretty pretty mild event to be honest i mean to be fair they did also survive the by bit issue um but I guess that's not really that relevant to this um I think if Athena goes down Pendle

would die that's the big one and Luke would probably be very very sad if that happened um but that's the only that's part of the issue right sorry well like you said there's just a lot of exogenous risk it's intertwined with everything and it's only going to get more and more intertwined with everything because the product is growing and it's grow like it's a good product at the end of the day like they have a fantastic team they're managing to get into like the relevant places um that's both money markets being used as margin on um dexes being used as margin potentially on sexes um and they just have like underlying even like yield products built on top of it such as pendal um but that only grows it i don't know how well it would hold up that's

kind of one of those things where you don't know until it happens and then the week after you're like "Yeah this was [ __ ] obvious we could have been more careful." Yeah to add I was going to just say to add to it the largest isolated markets on Morpho are dominated by Pendle instruments related to SUSD as well as just native like raw SUSD and USD markets and like you said James like I just grabbed a random one you know this USD to die market is a hard-coded price so Exactly exactly it's just one and then so one other thing I actually didn't even know we would talk about it but it's it's interesting pendle like so Pendle like you're you're trading interest rate swaps on Pendle right like it's actually a fairly complicated

product but I think most people naively might not understand really what they're doing and they just see like a PT product and like oh I'm buying free yield on the market and like they have no idea like what they're actually trading or what is actually like going into that instrument and how to actually price that correctly um so that's one side of it but then sorry go ahead the front end tells you man it says it's 12% i'm just taking Exactly right no that's it someone just sees like "Hey I can buy this PT for 6 months from now." Like no one actually knows what they're doing which is fine um but yeah like that that also goes back to the point of like I have no idea and I'm not sure if you can actually even find this information how many like real actual dollars make up

Athena like on any borrow platform versus just like endlessly looped and recursive um borrow lend like I'd be curious if someone could could break that down i can't leave never spent a lot of time thinking about it um in terms of how to actually find the data but I I I would be interested in that james I'm curious just as you brought that up um I'm a admittedly a Pendle noob but when you talk about interest rate swaps that is my wheelhouse and with within there which which side is fixed and which side is variable within that is is the the person that's getting the yield on the fixed side so if you're if you're buying if you're buying um PT so you're buying the principal token so you're you're locking in your rate for the forward forward

future right so you're you're basically implicitly short that rate because you're you know what you're going to get at the end of the day and then the seller of that you know is exposed to that interest rate risk yeah a lot of these lending markets have a lot of pendle pendle like all of the lending market growth you see is a lot of it is pendal and a lot of it is um usual money i don't know if you guys remember that it's not as popular as it used to be now but um Oiler that's a good hardcoded one yeah a large portion of Oiler is made up of um of the usual bonds and there's definitely some stuff that you can see like oh this could potentially crack if something went wrong um we should just

But okay I'm going to defend the crypto side now because we're [ __ ] on it a bit too much to be fair we've only had this for 12 years so we still have the chance to make some mistakes you guys had yours for 600 years and you made all the mistakes that you get to have like give us give us a bit like we also want to run down some some scams and some some issues you know we we also want some French quants to blow some things up exactly um I I think that the um just like kind of one point to round it off is that um look [ __ ] still breaks in trady um when you talked about the March 2020 market that market broke there were totally and that was a basis trade blow

up there too just in treasuries right yeah exactly correct yeah so I I think in that environment um you know nothing is safe I remember ETFs were were trading at 10% discounts to NAV like like [ __ ] was going on that did not make sense um that's a tough market I will say that I am impressed with how cryptos held up this year I think if you ask me in 202 23 if we had all these products and then you know ETH was down whatever percent it was from its high 60% or so um how would these things be trading and I would assume that we'd be back to 2023 kind of like bare market vibes and and we're not so um you know glass half full all right this is after that I got kind

of depressed so I want to ask this question as well what do we think um wins in terms of how everything is going how we know like the legislation is moving um the world is changing crypto is becoming more legalized and regulated um who wins defi CFI or uh Robin Hoodi this is just such an obvious answer as well this shouldn't have been a question but I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to come up with a hot take for you but I mean maybe you guys probably already talked about this on a recent episode but what happened with Hyperlid and and Binance and the whole Jelly Jelly thing did you guys talk about that we purposefully avoided it because I get

really avoided Hyperlid we talked about it before i said include Hyperlid and he said no no hyper liquid we can talk about it if we want to i I'm I'm very happy to talk about it like I'll I'll say this like the the team the reason that Hyperlid got to where it is is through the HLP through being aggressive in listings like nobody cares about listing [ __ ] Bitcoin link and uni the way that GMX was or Dydx where they take like three years to list an alt people care about listings people care about assets to trade now with that you can't make market makers take like bring in all of the liquidity you need to have some form of a mechanism within the bank and for them that was the HLP which um suffered

some losses because of Is it the perfect system no they need to make some changes um specifically related to like open interest and market cap you can't let somebody put on a 12 mil position on a 28 mil market cap token that's ridiculous um but they're doing that um I still think what they did was probably okay um I assume everybody here is familiar with what happened but what ended up happening is they um set an oracle price that was um below the the Jell's final price and then just made everybody made everybody whole as in like they didn't take the 12 mil loss which was what they had on their books on the HLP um by

forcing an like the oracle price to settle it was it decentralized no but like OKX and Binance are going after you saying we're gonna list Jelly Yelli right now i think you have to do what you have to do um it's not ideal but yeah so So B the reason I brought that up is because yeah it's it's a good you know outlook into this this fight because I'm I'm not a decentralization maxi um you know definitely more excited about some of the aspects of of just like hyper efficiency of of settlement and those parts of of crypto but I I still appreciate decentralization to an extent but look like if if what happened happened to a a DEX where it wasn't just

six validators and it was I don't know a hundred like this would have been a way worse scenario because obviously they had to get quorum and they got quum I think for the vote in like six minutes or something and look like I'm I I don't believe in Austrian economics where you just let everything blow up and then you know pick things up once you know from the phoenix emerges like I do think we can do better than that and sometimes that requires a bit of a sacrifice in terms of decentralization so yeah I I'm pretty happy with taking a happy medium i I I think they did the best they could and I think there is some you know validity in in being able to have efficiency over absolute decentralization can can you clarify two points like as far as I understand it there's there's

two there's two things that were kind of controversial so one is like what was disclosed in their docs which is like this kind of close out concept that they had in the first place that they could even close it out so I think it like from from my view there's two separate things like closing it out is one thing because they basically just automatched the long against the short even though like that liquidity was not there to like organically work out of that position right so like that to me is the first thing that they did that was you know call it a little different and then the second thing was obviously the oracle at a much different price so did I did I kind of categorize everything correctly i think to be honest with you that dock thing is refers to the auto deleveraging i don't

think they auto deleveraged like I don't think they had like some ADL mechanism kick in i think they just straight up closed the market at an oracle price and like you said they just matched orders so so to me like closing out the mark like force closing out that position at the current market price I think is still a little weird but I think like doing that with whatever the 12 mil loss I think that would have been like much more palatable to the market i think like what people are having trouble digesting is that there was no loss to HLP given that like that 12 mil loss to HLP would not have been catastrophic it would not have brought down the platform it wouldn't have like wiped out the vault everyone would have just taken like whatever one month two month P&L haircut so like why didn't they do that

in your opinion i don't know i I now that you bring it up to be honest with you before I was very happy with what they did i I wasn't in the HLP but I I thought it was a fine decision um but I do agree with you i think at the time it was around 250 260 mil in the account value i guess it's not that bad like all time I think they've made like 80 mil um P&L so it's not like it's a haircut it's a few months more than a few months but it's not the worst thing in the world i think probably their justification is that this was clearly an attack and the people who piled on were likely also going for an attack i'm not agreeing with like what they did um I do think that they could have probably done it a

bit better what they actually did end up doing is the price that they closed it at was like 0.07 originally that was like the what people announced and then they upped it for some reason like it was they actually ended up making more longs the people who were who owned the long side they they end up making giving them a bit more than I don't know if that makes sense i can't explain it properly but they upped the oracle price so the longs were actually not all like [ __ ] but they had they some of them were in profit at that point i do think it's good that it kind of brings HLP into a little bit more focus because one like I think market making is like the ultimate dark forest right and then in crypto it's even worse so like people

should know they're signing up to like play big boy games when they're making markets and decentralized order books um and I can't tell you the amount of chats that I've been in where people are like I'm just going to sell everything and put my money in HLP and never have to worry about worry about it again and get 30% a year like a lot of people a lot of crypto participants think that HLP and market making is just like free money like they think market making is like this handwavy thing where like you just make unlimited money which I think this is a very good instructive um exercise in showing that that is not true crypto's definition of marketmaking is so funny to me it it's funny that you drop any any product that can guarantee like 15% plus yield and crypto people will say no

matter what the mechanism is underneath okay I'm going to take everything I have and just put it in there and this will be guaranteed i will say one thing um I agree with you first of all second of all the HLP is also not a regular market making strategy like it's purpose-built to make hyperlquid have as much liquidity as possible i'm sure that makes some form of a difference in their algorithm like the way that they run it because they're not trying to max um profit they're just they're just trying to make the exchange work as liquidly as possible because the money that they can make off Hyperlid working well is dramatically more than the money that they can make off of um the HLP felix going back to what you

said about that mix between centralized and decentralized um I think we're going to see more and more people get upset over the next year like especially big decentralization maxis um like hyper it's not six validators it's 20 validators but it's still way less than what we're used to like increasingly we're getting more and more centralized for the purpose of becoming more efficient and faster and like you said settlement like we're just building it as sufficiently decentralized as possible which is a forecasted term by the big the big thing that makes me sad is is the Bitcoin s story side of things um and just the the disintermediation of spot bitcoin from actual owners and the

the increasing in in derivatives and um I don't know if you guys ever read like epsilon theory but a couple years ago the the guy who writes this um kind of like the in praise of Bitcoin and really he was just about how like Wall Street has taken over Bitcoin and replaced it with like Bitcoin TM like trademark and it's just like derivatives of Bitcoin um and you know it's it it's sad to see that but at the same time you have to follow the incentives right like you know I I'm guilty of it i don't own onchain Bitcoin i own IBIT because I can own an attack sheltered account and have tax regains so you know it's like it's just it's just you know it's part of the incentives um but it is also sad to see i don't think anyone really cares

anymore either do you guys like do you like it's like Felix and I laugh about this all the time like people just sitting here cheerleading like more fiscal spending and more QE because their bags are going to go up like I don't know like can we just be honest no one really cares about decentralization anymore as long as like the price is going up they're fine like if you if you were to chart yeah go ahead I will say one thing I get I got a bit sad at that um I'm like people who know me know that I'm not like a huge huge decentralization guy um but I'm also So like I have some of the I I think people should be able the one of the reasons that I got in is because the country that I'm from we don't have fantastic um

currency so the holding the US dollar is incredible but you can't hold it in a bank because they don't let you pull it out so I think like that to me is very very important um apart from that I like you said Felix I I think the idea of like owning a Bitcoin is different than owning a BTC ETF um but on the other hand um I am an analyst and I want to make money and I want people to make money so like if this is the game that I have to play it's it's only fair and that's why I think like people are going to come into a shock when they see Fogo come out with like 21 validators and a permissioned validator set and no MEV allowed and that's just going to be the

new reality like increasingly that's what's going to start happening um I mean maybe we could be optimist here and just say that if if if people need it it is there like to your point if you are in a country where you have like hyperinflation like yet you know there's there's some central banks there that are running some very high inflation and if it if you need it the offramps are there for Bitcoin it's just for everything else there's all these other things and in the same way that you know there is permissionless landing on chain you know it's just it it already exists so it is there it's just it's not on the margin like where things are headed i guess it it's there too and we actually found out that it's the dollar like what you're saying before about how we're going to export dollars to the rest of

the world like most people want them most people want dollars and the escape actually doesn't have to be something complicated like Bitcoin like you could have the currency of a country that has a very predictable and stable rule of law and that's actually perhaps better than a Bitcoin right so you know again last half imagine if you could have a dollar blockchain backed by Bitcoin as an L2 that would be really really cool you're speaking my language man all right um let's do I want to do one last question um and I'm going to do this one because Ryan Connor hasn't participated

at a lot and neither has Danny we're going to do pump fun and memecoin um return distribution specifically I want to say once again that I was right and Ryan Connor was wrong pump on revenue is down um increasingly will continue to be down and returns distribution doesn't matter people are constantly losing money there's nothing to do with this ryan any takes um this is a chart right i I Yeah total charge it's a total chart crime um I think that if you were if you're to go back on you know various Xerx research

appearances of mine I I've I've said a lot that pump fund revenue will go down 90% or trading volume will go down 90% like I think that goes without saying um I think the more relevant question is like where is Pump Fund positioned in the in the crypto ecosystem today and you know that you know what Pump's revenue was at daily it's gone down probably 75% if I'm eyeballing the chart um so has a so has aer drromes uh so has unis swaps and pump fun remains a top five mostly top three and often number one app by daily revenue um to this day in crypto it's generated twice as much

um revenue as base has since the libra collapse that pump fund experienced so this is still the most popular application in crypto by many measures and um that wasn't the case for NFTs right NFTs fizzled to becoming irrelevant on a relative and absolute basis whereas pump fund remains relevant on a uh relative basis to the rest of crypto so um I think that this is a product that has experienced the most PD PMF of anything in crypto outside of centralized exchange trading and um you know my my my bet is that I would I would expect I I think it's a I think

you can reasonably I I I would take the I would take a bet that bump fun um volumes are higher in 12 months or are at new all-time highs within 12 months and I I think zero people in crypto are taking that bet it's just me and Danny that's like that's it i'm gonna agree with Ryan here um you look up the DeFi Lama top apps by revenue and the top three are Tether Circle I guess and then Hyperlquid and Pump Fund so um I think everyone should be clear about like what the most popular and successful apps of the past year and a half have been um I think

it's a bit silly to like you mentioned have the single like chart crime data point of like well it's down 90% it's over it's like everything everything is down 90% like Ryan said um that's not really like an exclusive pump fund thing um and and I this one thing that I really really hate is this NFT of 2021 to memecoin of 2024 2025 comparison because memecoins existed in 2021 and they also existed in 2014 like this is a sector that's been around almost as long as Bitcoin has and yet we're going to like cherrypick it and compare it to NFT markets for some reason when you know we called them different names they were Ponzi coins they were shitcoins in 21

and like 2017 like maybe you called them like weird altcoin ICOs but those were memes too like it it was essentially the same thing um and I think if I'm probably one of the few in the in the west anyway that was using Binance Smart Chain in 2021 but I think if you were around for that era it was incredibly obvious that like memecoin trading was like kind of an undeniable trend um and you saw that in the massive growth in new token creation on BSC relative to ETH and then when Salana came around and they you know lowered fees and increased throughput by another magnitude um you saw that same jump with I mean first it was just memes generally but then you know Pump Fund really just like turned up the notch there um so I I've just not

been surprised here by this trend and and I'd agree with Ryan like you know maybe the game needs to be tweaked a little bit i think that's always up for discussion here um but the two popular examples that I think people give Trump token if it's Kelsey Ventures and Mlecoin those weren't pump coins so um it doesn't really prove the point that u the like mass extract extraction events are like a a pump problem per se there are problems for sure you know with if it's bundling tokens etc um and maybe we need to find some solutions for those things but I don't think like the behavior and like the the market itself is is going to zero and I think like I I use this uristic to think about things like if you ask me the three crypto

companies that I would want to own equity in it's Tether Binance and undoubtedly Pump Fund like and and I think anyone like regardless of your thoughts on memecoins like you're lying if you say you wouldn't want equity in that product like I completely who cares if memecoins if memecoins are stupid like there's just been nothing that produced that much consistent revenue um I really would say like since the beginning of crypto like it's it's just kind of like not arguable at this point that like it has found PMF um yeah I I hate meme coins i think they're terrible but I think Pump Fund is like going to be here forever i think it's undeniable we get like you know we have the rev charts and we have the fee charts and revenue market share and you know you look at uh you know the yellow

on the chart which represented Binance and on a daily market share for cha chain application revenue it was down to 2% in November and then it shot up to 20% so of course you know we have questions what the hell caused this they have a tok they have a they have a four dot meme it's a it's a it's a it's a memecoin launchpad on Binance like it's it even even when the even when the revenue isn't being generated by Pump Fun it's a memecoin launchpad in some other ecosystem yeah yeah and it I think to your point James like when I look we use this example all the time but like when I look at sports gambling trends for example sports betting it's like you can look at that market and be like "Wow

they're really just extracting money out of the hands of people who have nothing better to do and are probably on lower you know income deciles of the population." But you know you can hate the fact that that exists and that people love to just waste their money on it but the fact exists that it's very profitable and it's successful so that like I can't really argue against that yeah and I think I think it's just an ideological thing in crypto that people um they think it's too dumb and it's too stupid so it has to go away eventually but like you kind of just have to approach this of like you know I hate the cliche of like do you want to be right or do you want to make money right but I think this is like just this is just like exactly one of those things

like it's clear as day sticking around 100% and yeah Danny I'm definitely guilty of doing the NFT comparison but the more I think about it it is like super revisionist because people seem to think that in 20121 the only meme was ship but it it wasn't like and and even some of those NFT people were were doing [ __ ] like I remember there's like a couple like like rug and like there's a couple of those like that it was the exact same situation as today so that's a that's a valid point the the revisionist history is crazy people forget that like Safe Moon happened and went to like 15 billion FTV like you know SHIB and Doge were you know they were you know top 10 coins right they were insane market caps yeah all the Elon coins all the ENU coins they were

going crazy yeah that's a fair shout i guess I'm wrong um I can't Everybody disagreed with me so I can't go i will say I I agree with you James i've I thought about it a bit more like I've been thinking about this and I realized that some of my anger might stem from the fact that I can't buy the token like there's no token to buy so if I could buy a token for it I would I would probably not be this angry i would just be like I if there's one protocol that Yeah go ahead go ahead i was just say if there's one if there's one protocol that should have teddy like 12 months ago and like probably would you know you know exactly what the chart

would look like right like you don't even need to say anything and like they could have designed some clever staking mechanic to like you know receive a share of fees and you know that that would have been like the greatest wealth generation of this entire cycle and I'm sure at some point I will say instead of that they focus on shipping and just destroying radium and now that radium that's true getting destroyed they can launch a token and take that market yeah also without a token they made 800 mil over the past year too the most successful crypto company of all time right yeah it's the same argument as like a lot of these just trading bots that basically profited on on memecoins as well that didn't launch tokens you know they printed hundreds of millions so I don't know that they're really crying about not not doing a

token no definitely not um yeah this was the same view I I I always had with Solana's like I don't like Solana like from a ideological place but it was what to own like instead of Eve for the longest time so but I could be happy with Solana because I owned it and it was going up but with Pump Fun I can't be so hopefully they'll change it soon um okay fantastic guys is there anything that we didn't cover that you really wanted to cover or can I end it i I just want to hear one last hot take from James on something just have a rant on something um God I don't even I don't even know what we covered we covered all the hot

takes um I You always know what talk about under collateralized lending quick B list off all of your bags so so he can draft up a quick bare thesis on them uh okay my my my hottest take will be I think because we didn't we didn't really chat on this that much i think Robin Hood will dramatically eat Coinbase's lunch over the next like two years and that's a hot take we all agree i agree okay fine more hot take i don't even think crypto exchanges in their current form will exist in the next like three or four years and I don't think people will be trading on Coinbase i think they'll be trading on some sort of like yet to be formed NY version of crypto and like the entire concept of like

trading on separate venues that also hold your coins is going to be you know the old days that's a hot take just off top of my head but not just going towards like it all being on the New York Stock Exchange and trading through a brokerage like something else no no like an an actual like you you won't be able to you won't have to you know separately market make on Kraken versus Coinbase it'll just be one exchange and then you know you'll handle your your custodial you know relationships offchain and settle offchain um or sorry off exchange on chain um yeah I think that makes sense I can't wait for Coinbase to not do well they're just I don't like Coinbase I've never like Coinbase people get angry at me I should probably not say that out loud but I I do find it funny that this has become

more common but I feel like people this community the community really rallied around Coinbase like at the bottom of of the prior bare market and then now everyone loves to [ __ ] on them because I I don't know i think they just look at the business and they're like "Man it's an awful service for users." I I'm mad at them because they still charge $400 a trade like it's absurd and I pay them a monthly fee and then they tell me that they saved me $300 on that trade like you got to be kidding me yeah buck if if you have five more minutes can you actually pull up the chart we said earlier just to chat on that because that's like that's actually a serious point that Ryan brings up that I actually think is interesting of um the Coinbase thing yeah yeah two minutes

yeah i have the all the time in the world i just thought we ran out all right i'm gonna Yes there's two charts there we go i have one chart here one chart and the other one yes so like to to Ryan's point like if you look at their Q4 revenues right um in full year 2024 so they did basically 80% of their volume was institutional and the revenue side is like totally flipped on its head right so like 3.4 four bill on consumer net transaction revenue and then on their institutional revenue they only made 345

million bucks so like it's a trend that's just like completely going the wrong way um and to Ryan's point like how sustainable is it in like a business where margins are going to continue to get compressed can they extract that much from like the consumer retail side of their business on transaction fees like I'd be curious what you guys think i just don't know how that's sustainable like five years from now or if people are still going to like accept those that pricing from from Coinbase i I might have a weird I'll just quick one i might have a weird view here but um I think Coinbase has been relatively slow i mean more recently Q1 post Trump and election they've they've kind of ramped up the like [ __ ] memecoin listings which is where I think you can like

really pull the handle on how much you're getting out of a trade from from these retail traders um and I don't know I expect that they can grow that that consumer side just by getting more assets like that on the exchange um but to your point around the institutional trends yeah someone else feel free to chime in i I'll take a different route here and just mention um we got that rumor a couple weeks ago that Coinbase is looking to acquire Darabbit and I think the options side of thing is very compelling because I've been a huge hater of onchain options basically since they begun because being somebody that used to trade options and not doing very well at it but I gave a lot of fees to

market makers and just like looking at those spreads was horrendous um and I think cornering the one place where you have decent spreads on crypto options is going to make them a killing if they go through with that um it's it's it's one of those things where you know you just think about the amount of different variables of like all the different strikes all the different expireies to have tight spreads on those is you can only have like one place that really does that effectively um so if Coinbase can get that I think they can still survive pretty well it's a weird one it's just like I I'm like very much a capitalist i think if you can charge a price you should charge it however I think it is very unkind to be charging the fees that they charge and it's not

cool man like that's my take i just like what the heck are you doing this like we're on the same team i'm a capitalist to be to be fair you're you're locked in in New York right like all of the the better service offerings are not available to residents yeah it's actually a New York bit license problem um but Coinbase is not you know not not taking advantage of it let's say yeah I uh Danny I agree with you in that they were very very slow to list everything um and I imagine they missed out on quite a bit of volume i'm not sure why they did they didn't list any base coins which would have been fantastic for them they waited until up until recently like past few weeks and it's like dog in me

and this that and the other thing right um but I'm surprised they weren't faster about this like it it it wasn't surprising to see post-election all these exchanges like "Okay we're dropping you know the whiffcoin and we're dropping this that and the other thing." Um that was expected i I was surprised that they took longer to get their ecosystem assets on on the exchange i'm curious if that was because of whatever like them being in DC and trying to show like good face and trying to be trying to act right um on the other hand the bit Felix that's the only options exchange in crypto like there's nothing else so that would be pretty big base I assume makes them quite a bit of money as well and will probably continue to make them a lot of money um but I

don't know about the fees i don't use Coinbase um but I will say I've increasingly seen more and more complaints about base holding people's money so that's the only reason I don't like them is like they ask for 15 KYC's after you try to transfer some money around um so that's the only reason let's do James let's do under collateralized lending and if it could ever work in crypto and then we're going to end it up yeah I guess we can keep it quick i mean I kind of think it has to right like for the industry to grow like if you ask people like the backbone of capital markets is like at its core unsecured lending right it's corporations floating debt that's not secured by physical assets um like you can't have a credit system that's over collateralized and

and continue to scale exponentially um so we chatted like a little bit before about Wildcat which I think is is pretty interesting um right so like they have a couple under collateralized pools now with Wintermute CMS um and Seleni um like I think it's probably a little bit better I mean a decent amount better I should say than the old CFI lenders of like 2021 where you know I think the idea there was actually probably pretty decent they just you know screwed up the entire concept of having overnight withdrawals by users which like to anyone should have been blatantly obvious that that's not going to work um so Wildcat has a pretty interesting solution where you know the

teners are a bit longer so you're locking up your money for a couple months um I think that's pretty interesting now granted it's like super super small i think you have the slide up with their with their current market like we're talking under like 100 million bucks of of current outstanding borrow um but I think it's still like a little it's it's close right like we're we're getting there um I'm surprised more people haven't kind of taken a longer look at this and a and a bigger push um curious what you guys think about it though i I'm going to say I think until Yeah the markets are pretty small um 14.4% is not bad but like you're going to go into that thing about how it's not free money to give money to market makers so it's going to make me upset um but yeah I actually think these

rates I think these rates are too low like I actually think lending to Wintermute for 12% uncolateralized with no like legal recourse to them is actually very very low um and that's the thing right it's the legal recourse aspect like if if something goes wrong there's there's no guarantee for me to get it back i'm just a wallet address i don't know how even it would work i'm sure Lawrence and the guys have figured out some way and I'm sure that Winter Mute is good for their money and so CMS and so Seleni but it's more about like what if something goes wrong and that's that's something that I never know how people are going to fix is onchain credit um and I think it might just have to be legal like there's there's no way else to do it like you

either have to have collateralized lending um put up some assets borrow on that or you need to do some form of like tie somebody's K address to their KYC and figure out some form of legal recourse because there's no there's people who are trying to figure it out like you give somebody onchain credit score based on like how many transactions they've made and if they've paid them back but to me it if there's no like if you give people money to steal I think they're just going to steal it or if they lose it they're not going to pay it back yeah i think longer term this feels like something that's a bit of an inevitability and it's just like from here until then the question mark is all the things that Bach just mentioned like I think we're just going to have to step

through all of those things there's not going to be any free lunch of like you can just spin up a wallet and get a loan under collateralized like that just there's no world where that happens um because no one's going to want to give away their money for free with no recourse um yeah I I think there's there's a m like a multitude of solutions that are going to come you know and I think we're seeing like in other areas things that might bridge this gap where like Coinbase on base is experimenting with like permissioned pools with unis swap v4 hooks like you know there there's going to be ways to do permission setups for these types of things tie people's KYC to it especially if you get to the point where you know if more of these treadfy institutions are going to be linking you know onchain

systems into their backends for stuff i mean they're going to have their customer data anyway so I just feel like this is a it's a problem that gets resolved and it won't be sexy when it happens yeah i feel like the best focus we could do is just around transparency and the rehypothecation of those loans like when we get to that next step where if we get enough of these underolateralized loans like that's the big thing about the issue about these and stratifi is just the rehypothecation and like you don't know your counterparty so I think the best job we could do using the greatness that is blockchains is improving that fact and you know the creditworthiness and all that stuff that it'll get figured out but I think if you know walk out if you're listening um that's a really good thing that we can improve for broad

financial industry i think I think they'll figure it out we'll see i um just on that last thing is even in crypto you see market making deals go really wrong like with the token teams giving tokens to market makers and those deals going wrong so I think if that deal is going wrong and there's no legal repercussions for it even though there are like legal contracts I imagine we're relatively far away from is that a digit movement market makers no that wasn't a thing i I didn't even But yeah I guess kind of unfortunately i will say Felix I I mean I do like your point about transparency i think more and more the kind of the

the ethos of having these transparent well what could be or should be transparent you know sometimes the data isn't like resolved to that level for people um can bring around a lot of the at least provide all the data put it all in front of people to make the right decisions around how to build some of these things or like interact with them um and I think there's an interesting comp in like even in governance systems where like on Salana people are able to sell their votes like literally you can you can sell your votes to other people during during governance votes um which right or wrong the social consensus can decide but I do think there's a point to be made about just like if if that's happening today in the traditional world like you don't know that it's happening it's not happening on chain right that's

a backroom deal somebody's shaking some hands you know paying you know some quit proquo doing some services for this that or the other thing um you know the more that you can kind of put the data in front of people to say like this is what's happening how much um we know it to this extent then you know the social decision-m can happen around that to decide what's the the best path forward thank you Danny all right um guys before I end it off I have to say one thing it's in my contract um please come to permissionless and use code0x10 when you come um you get 10% off your permissionless tickets i will be there daniel will be there felix will be there ryan will be

there james might be there we'll see he might be there he'll be wearing a mask i'll be there man you're you're already shilling that hey I haven't started yet for it guys so I got to get on it well you have a lot more listeners than we do so we work i'll give you a head start we sh 0x10 round the clock man every episode yep respect that's good literally around the clock we did in the morning as well and shield it um yeah we're gonna have a Zerx research event as well this time so we won't just have to crash Felix's one so it should be fun zerox 10 um guys thank you so much for coming on james it was a pleasure to have you thanks guys yeah so sweet later guys

[Music]