Guy Wuollet of a16z Crypto on institutions, DePIN and AI agents

Transcript

Are there opportunities to build net new networks where those networks will be built on chain because it is more efficient and and because you have better opportunities for capital formation as opposed to can I go compete with a very big incumbent that's you know a successful company started in the last few years. You know I I think there are interesting opportunities there but I think that's always going to be to be harder. Bitcoin and crypto have been chopping sideways for over 2 months now. Meanwhile, the crypto industry is growing up fast. What does institutional adoption and maturation mean for crypto? What are some of the biggest opportunities that investors need to know about right now? And what does all this mean for you? Hello and welcome to the Milk Road Show, the podcast that's here to remind you that the real decentralized physical infrastructure are the friends we made along the way.

I'm your host, John Gillan. Today is Tuesday, April 7th, and today we are joined by Guy Wlette. Guy is a general partner on the A16Z crypto investment team at Andre Horowitz, where he focuses on infrastructure and application layer investments. all across crypto. Guy is a longtime Bitcoin advocate, a firm believer in the power of crypto. He's going to give us a ton of alpha and insight today. This is going to be a great episode. If that all sounds good to you, make sure you like and subscribe. Share this episode with somebody who needs to hear it. Today's episode is brought to you by Midnight, bringing rational privacy to blockchain and some turn crypto tax chaos into confidence. And without further ado, welcome to the Milkro Show. Guy, how are you?

>> I'm great, John. Thank you for having me. >> I'm really happy to talk to you. This is going to be a good episode. Guy, I thought the best place to start this would just be a little bit of a high level on your role at A16Z and where you fit into the firm's overall strategy on crypto. >> Absolutely. So, I'm one of the general partners here on our our crypto team. By way of a little bit of background about me, I I went to Stanford and studied computer science and and while I was there, I was definitely an internet infrastructure nerd. That's how I fell down the crypto rabbit hole. Uh, and I remember looking at trying to build a basically a stack diagram of how crypto worked technically and realizing there weren't a lot of projects focused on uh, the messaging layer or the networking

layer. And so I I tried to build a project focused around a decentralized internet service provider. Uh, and that did not go very well. [laughter] But I was part of the initial version of the uh, crypto accelerator program that our our team has run a few times. And so I got to know a number of the investors on on our team. did a a brief stint working with research on Protocol Labs and then I I joined our team as an investor at the end of 2020. And over the past couple of years, it's definitely been a a transformation for crypto as an industry. Been a very fun time. I I think we're growing up. I I focused a lot on our uh infrastructure investing, both meaning blockchain infrastructure and physical infrastructure, which I think we'll we'll get to hopefully in a few minutes.

Uh and then a lot on our our DeFi investing. And it's just very clear to us today that that DeFi is colliding with or or maybe a kneeling is the right word with fintech and and the rest of Wall Street and traditional finance. And I I think that has put some people in an interesting ideological position because a lot of I think the reason many people got interested in crypto to begin with was somewhat in opposition to how the financial system works today. But I I I think we are actually having many of the impacts that we would have wanted at an ideological level and you know at a business and a product level. It's really nice to see stable coins working uh at at massive scale to see things like agentic payments really taking off.

Uh and then some of the opportunities around capital markets on chain which I'm I'm very personally excited about. Uh so that's that's a little bit about me and uh I'm I'm sure we're going to dive into a lot more. >> As we're breaking down some trade ideas here on the show, I want you to imagine getting an alert the moment that we make an actual move because that's what you get now with Milk Road Pro. a real-time notification that tells you the second one of our analysts buy or sell anything. Check it out below. >> Yeah. Well, there's a lot to unpack there, but I want to stay with sort of the high level on A16Z first here. Um, you guys have, you know, long been known for doing a lot of VC and like very early stage investing in crypto. Is that still where your focus is or as crypto

has matured, have you shifted to more things that have already gotten product market fit and like broader adoption? What's what's the strategy right now for A16Z? Yeah, our strategy has been previously and remains to invest at any stage in the people we believe are are the very best founders building the the future of blockchain as it as it relates to uh the future of technology as it relates to blockchains. Uh so I I don't feel like our strategy has has shifted in terms of the stage of our investments. We invest uh you know at at a very early stage and in many cases uh first money in and then also at much later stages with with large investments in projects that you know have already launched a token or late stage in their uh kind of growth as as a private company. Uh so I I think we remain

optimistic at at both of those stages. Certainly I I think the kind of founder energy or or where there are the best opportunities tends to to shift as as the market cycle itself does as as well. You know the the market for projects launching tokens is very different today than it would have been a few years ago. I think the kind of viability of companies uh selling more traditional SAS products to enterprises uh has grown you know greatly. Uh, one of the reasons we were focused on, you know, investing primarily in decentralized networks that that have tokens for many years is that I think a lot of the best businesses in the world are either network effects businesses or enterprise sales businesses. Uh, and if you're building a

network effects business in crypto, it seems like it should be a decentralized network. uh at at least to me a lot of the kind of enterprise sales businesses I think had small you know addressable markets from from customers because there weren't that many big enterprises participating in in crypto and onchain yet and I think that has really flipped uh beginning with the passage of of genius last summer and now seeing a lot more interest from traditional fintech players and even some of the the largest participants in Wall Street. So I I think you know that has become a a real interesting opportunity where uh what we would have probably called fintech 5 years ago I I think is you know onchain and is coming onchain today and that's that's also certainly a big component of our investing thesis right now.

>> Okay. So I think that's helpful framing and just like kind of a level set for where your guys's mindset is because you know a lot of things have shifted in retail's mindset from 2021 to now. So it's kind of good that you still have this kind of longer term view here. Um, and you know, you talked about like crypto maturing, Wall Street coming in. Talk to me about how you've seen sort of this tension between Wall Street coming in, taking over, Tradify moving in versus some of these cy cipher punk values and this high value and premium that crypto used to place on decentralization. What's that been like? Is there tension there? What's that conversation been like from your perspective?

Yeah, I I will certainly speaking for myself, part of what made me interested in crypto and in decentralization was as an opportunity to build alternative systems for how we you know run society and and run a financial system. And I I think you know large parts of that were very uh ideological and and sort of idealistic. I'm very happy that we ran many of those experiments. But if you look at uh DeFi products over the last 5 years, if you look at uh crypto infrastructure, I think users individually are opting into greater efficiency at the expense of some level of decentralization. And a lot of why we thought decentralization was really important for for many years has been about avoiding platform risk, has been about censorship resistance. It it has

not been, you know, decentralization for its own sake. And we use very different words than people do on Wall Street or in more traditional finance. But if you say counterparty risk to someone that works at a bank or a more traditional fund, they of course immediately understand the value of that. If you say decentralization, I think that is much harder to define and much more opaque. And so when I think about uh you know folks who are interested in in lending or credit and saying well your counterparty here is the Ethereum blockchain and is a set of smart contracts that have existed for uh you know many many years and handled billions of dollars in volume that are immutable and will continue running precisely the same way. I think that's a pretty attractive counterparty risk from the perspective of someone you know working in a more traditional financial

institution. I think if you tell them you should care about decentralization, uh you're walking down a very different sort of discussion or or or or path. And so I I think a lot of the shift has been in helping to articulate the value of what crypto has built as an industry to a new audience and customer set. And for better or for worse, I'm not sure. I I think it's very interesting that uh like we would describe the industry as crypto. And if you talk to someone at a bank or a fintech company, oftent times their team is called the digital assets team. This is incredibly telling to me because pretty much every asset that I interact with is a digital asset. Like why why is the team called digital assets. Uh and and I think it highlights that uh probably the combination of these two ideas is something uh very

similar to what Salana would call internet capital markets and this idea that uh financial assets should be programmable. They should be interoperable. Uh they should eliminate platform risk. And I I think that's a lot of what's working really well right now on on chain and uh is part of why, you know, crypto may be leaving mom's basement and putting on a polo and uh you know going to their local bank branch, maybe not yet a suit and signing an ISDA, but but certainly going in that direction. >> Okay. Gotcha. That's really helpful. I think that that that resonates a lot for me as like translating some of the language and value of crypto into Wall Street speak and making that digestible for that audience is a big uh you know a big barrier to get over and a hurdle to cross. So I'm glad that's conversation

is happening. Uh I want to shift the conversation towards something you're very focused on which is deepen or decentralized physical infrastructure networks. You've written spoken about this extensively but you've also been very active investing in this space. Um, this was a narrative from the 2021 bull run that a lot of uh, crypton native investors heard about, learned about, but it feels like it hasn't really materialized or anything. Tell me a bit about why you've remained so focused on this and what the opportunity you still see there is. >> Yeah, so I think it's important to define deepen because it meant many different things to many different people. Deepen I think was the generalization of Helium Forex and Helium established the idea that you could create a token incentive to deploy uh at the time a Luroan hotspot now a 5G hotspot. Essentially you could give

people a token to do things. Uh and Helium gave people a token to deploy physical infrastructure. I think some people used the idea of deepen as we can give people a token to do something entirely unrelated to physical infrastructure. Uh, and so the the term I think has lost some of the sort of semantic or definitional value. A lot of what I've personally been interested to see is uh using blockchains and and token incentives to help build out physical infrastructure. And the idea that someone can start a new company or project and not need to go raise a very large fund to immediately spend that money investing in physical infrastructure. Things like uh, you know, telecom in the case of helium. uh we're investors in a project called

Daylight that's focused on building out solar panels and batteries for a decentralized energy grid. One of the classic examples of why decentralization and crypto matters was always the idea of decentralized ride sharing and we've seen some interesting companies that are focused on on let's call it transportation generally. So I I think that's a very powerful idea that you can use blockchains as capital markets for crowdfunding where the users of the network are owners and operators. uh and that's a very different model from the owner of the network is perhaps at odds with the users and operators of the network and I I I think you know the kind of deepen style model for building physical infrastructure is one that better aligns incentives. Uh it is also how however a model that uh is trying to

finance deployment of physical infrastructure with something that looks very similar to an ownership asset. uh you know the the closest comparable in uh the traditional world would would be equity financing as opposed to debt financing. And I I I think we start to see a number of deepen projects focused more on uh something that looks a lot more like debt financing or looks a lot more like lending uh and projects like uh daylight for uh solar panels and batteries, projects like USDI for GPUs are really interesting to me. taking this kind of uh crowdsourced crowdfunding model for physical infrastructure and applying it to debt capital markets as opposed to, you know,

ownership capital markets for for things like network tokens or or equity. Uh and and I think that's been a lot of the evolution of deepen as a category over the last couple of years. I I think there have been some successes, but I'm uh optimistic that that we'll see more in in the future. And I think oftentimes a lot of the most compelling opportunities live at the kind of intersection of two different spaces. And to be very frank with you, I think there are not many people on earth today who are an expert in blockchains and also an expert in telecom or an expert in you know energy and also an expert in blockchains. And so a lot of how I've tried to spend my time is is finding people that are are at that crossover intersection. And my PSA would be that if if anyone listening is uh you know

feels like I am describing them, you know, ple please let me know. We're we're we're still very actively interested in in those kinds of areas. >> Well, I'm glad you're drumming up business on the podcast. That's good to hear. Um I want to unpack a couple of pieces of this because you brought up a lot of subjects here. Um but I think that one of the things that was always sort of like the big appeal of decentralized physical infrastructure networks was users, as you said, owning and operating the network, right? And and and participating in that. But it seems like what the market has sort of been saying is that users don't really want to own or operate the network. They want a centralized party to do that for them and then just you know benefit from the the product or service. Um how do

you think about this problem? Is there a way around this problem or is it just a matter of properly incentivizing users to to you know take that ownership and and that participation and operation of the network? Talk to me about that as a hurdle for deep pin projects. >> Yeah, I I think there in many markets is a natural separation between capital and labor. I I would look at uh liquid staking especially on something like Ethereum which was intentionally designed to try to force people to uh you know run the physical infrastructure and also stake the financial asset and of course those you know roles have have been separated out over the last couple of years. I I think in a purely financial market you often have that separation of of capital and labor where different people are are good at those

uh different things. I I think the opportunity for for deepin is often when a user is already operating part of what could be a broader network. You know, if I have a Wi-Fi hotspot at home and I could contribute that to a broader network and it's a latent capacity that then I think you have the opportunity to build a really interesting userowned and operated network. You know, I I uh worked at Protocol Labs for a little while and they were the original creators behind Filecoin. uh and and I still find the idea that I have some extra space in my hard drive and I could contribute that to a decentralized network. I I still think that's a compelling idea and it's you know obviously less physical than uh solar panels or or telecom towers. Uh but that kind of idea of aggregating latent

capacity makes a lot of sense to me in a network where users would own and operate the network. Uh, I think daylight is another good example here where many people already have a Tesla power wall, a solar panel on their their roof, you know, a battery or a generator in their backyard for reasons entirely unrelated to being interested in contributing to a virtual power plant. And then they kind of have the opportunity to opt into joining this broader network because they're already uh, you know, participating individually in something that's that's valuable to them. Uh so I I think where people are joining a network for the first time because they're interested in the network as opposed to kind of a single player tool or service then you know maybe you have a more natural separation of capital and labor. But if someone is

already doing the labor or you know already has the capital for an unrelated reason for for their own interests then I think oftent times it's much easier to to build a network around combining those two roles. >> Crypto taxes are a nightmare. You've got trades across 15 exchanges, DeFi positions you forgot about, NFT flips, staking rewards, airdrops, and somehow you're supposed to report all of this to the IRS. Good luck. Cue the solution, SUM. [music] You may know it by its old name, crypto tax calculator. The Sum platform connects to over 3,500 exchanges, wallets, and crypto projects, including full support for DeFi, NFT, staking, and airdrops. [music] It finds deductions you'd miss, reconciles massive transaction histories without losing track, [music] and generates IRS ready reports that will help you pay the

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>> Gotcha. Okay. That's a helpful way to frame that. I think it kind of changes the the way to look at it there. Um I I want to ask you about this. So, one of the big promises of deepen projects has always been sort of disrupting and displacing a lot of these very powerful, very lucrative incumbent companies. Um, but I I haven't really seen this actually happen yet in the markets. And, you know, you you listed several examples of places where Dpin projects could be viable like compute, telecom, you know, you mentioned solar panels, a lot of other things. Where do you see Dpin projects making their first sort of big win against an incumbent and like what does that timeline look like? Like talk to me about that landscape.

Yeah, I I think some of the incumbents we're talking about are massive companies that have existed for, you know, many decades and I would argue have regulatory capture. I think in hindsight it was probably ambitious to say we will disrupt the incumbent in a couple of years. I I think this will, you know, in many cases be a long transformation. I I I do think Helium has had a lot of really tangible progress in terms of the product they're offering transitioning from Laurowan to 5G connectivity. uh significantly expanding the deployment. Depending on the uh mobile carrier that you have, you actually might be roaming onto the Helium network without you ever knowing.

You know, that that kind of interaction with a blockchain based service where you don't explicitly have to have a wallet or even be aware that you're using one. I I think is a really compelling path for for our industry as a whole. And and and then I guess my second point would be I think the opportunity to build new networks or products in growing markets is always going to be easier than competing over a fixed market with an incumbent. And so seeing the drastic increase in demand for for energy as a result of data center buildout, GPU buildout, you know, uh really a second order effect I think of improvement in LLMs. Uh I think that's created an opportunity for new uh decentralized energy networks and and

new players. And if you look at the state of the American energy grid, it is kind of begging for uh storage and generation at the edge. And and so, you know, one of the things we think about in terms of uh the sorts of projects we're excited about is are there opportunities to build net new networks and where those networks will be built on chain because it is more efficient uh and and because uh you have better opportunities for capital formation uh as opposed to can I go compete with a very big incumbent that's you know a successful company started in the last few years. You know, I I think there are interesting opportunities there, but I think that's always going to be to be harder and and so some of that I think is certainly spilled over into deepen.

Gotcha. Okay. So, you're saying that the incumbents might take a little longer to displace for a lot of reasons, but there are a lot of blue sky markets where deepen projects could capture a huge amount of of market share. Um, I want to ask you about something specifically around this uh this intersection between artificial intelligence and crypto. Uh, we at Milk Road have been very focused on this. We launched a whole another brand called Milkroad AI to kind of inform our audience about these things. Talk to me about just generally where you see the intersection happening between crypto and AI and and what that looks like and just anything in that area that you're excited about or got your attention on right now.

>> Yeah, I I think if you wind the clock back a year or two, many AI people were very skeptical of crypto and they did not like us very much. What has really surprised me and and almost warmed my heart is that talking to many of my friends who are focused on kind of cutting edge AI that they very much understand the value of uh of microp payments of DeFi of stable coins. I I think if you believe in a world of agents and a world of you know autonomous AI entities interacting economically in the economy you have to believe in something that looks very similar to DeFi or you just have to believe in DeFi itself. Uh I think the alternative there is you believe in uh the card networks, the capital markets,

you know, existing financial services transforming drastically in a very short period of time. And and I think there are some uh you know, fintech companies that are well positioned to take advantage of that. But I I think almost certainly unintentionally cryptobuilt capital markets and a financial ecosystem that is perfectly fit for AI agents. And I I would be surprised if we don't see a lot more founder activity in that area and if we don't see uh really compelling new products, you know, uh when I spend time in in Claude or in Codex, one of the things that I've been using a lot recently, a portfolio company of ours called Merit Systems launched a product called agent cashe, which gives you access to paid APIs and

uh debits a stable coin balance on chain making small micro payments for access to those APIs. And that is so much nicer than trying to load and manage 10 20 50 API keys so uh my agent can have access to traditional paid services. you know that that's one example but I think there are so many different things there where uh if we're you know very quickly moving to worlds towards a world of uh you know AGI or pseudo AGI you need to you know give agents access to the rest of the world especially to uh you know a financial ecosystem and financial services and crypto and blockchain seem the the obvious way to do that. Uh I I think the other interesting intersection has been over how AI agents and bots have taken over all of our public spaces

on the internet. Uh I don't know if your Twitter feed has similarly changed to to mine, [snorts] but >> No, I haven't noticed at all. [laughter] Sorry. >> Well, I Good good for you. Uh you you >> haven't noticed. Of course, we all noticed. >> I I I need your uh I need your management of of who you follow on Twitter. That would be fantastic. Uh so I I think things like proof of human are are going to be obviously useful and valuable components uh you know certainly of social media products but uh I I I would think more and more over time of uh you know enterprise products and likely you know mandated at at uh kind of a government or regulation level over time. you you already see this a

lot with increasing age verification on on the internet and I think you know the the best way to solve that would be with ZK proofs and and credentials on a blockchain. Uh so you know I think there's kind of a lot of juice to squeeze in how AI would impact crypto. But you know those are the two areas where it's most salient to me that that uh crypto can impact AI. >> A lot of people have been saying recently that one of the struggles that crypto has always had is onboarding users. And you know, I asked you about some of the friction of of getting people to adopt deep pin networks. Um, but now that we have the rise of the or the coming rise, I guess rather of the agentic economy and maybe billions or trillions of artificially intelligent users as opposed to human users, a lot

of people are saying that crypto is actually much more, you know, oriented towards those kind of users. But what does that look like once we have say, you know, several billion potential new users coming in to an a to an Ethereum to a Salana, etc. Right? Like how does that change the nature of DeFi? And just like what are your thoughts around that as we get not only human players coming in like Wall Street's coming to DeFi but also AI is coming to what is that to the mix? How does that evolve? >> Yeah, I I I [laughter] think there's there's a there's kind of like an interesting debate or evolution in crypto infrastructure where there was definitely a period in time several years ago where our biggest bottleneck as an industry was blockchain scaling.

And I think the most kind of common argument for the economic model of L1 and L2 blockchains was that you would improve scale and you would have induced demand. And you know the the kind of classic physical example of this is you have a two-lane highway and you build two new lanes and there actually is more congestion in the highway uh because you suddenly have built more housing and businesses around the highway and you know it becomes even more valuable in in uh kind of physical real estate and and I think we haven't seen that induced demand materialize today. If you look at congestion fees across L1's and L2s in in most cases they they have gone down which I think has been an incredible success in terms of technical progress in blockchain scaling but has kind of

left open this question as to how do transaction fees work for blockchain infrastructure and how do you how do you do you know price or feed discrimination for different users so that you can ensure to to you know make a fantastic business out of the chain that has been really well adopted. Uh and one answer to that might be that we get induced demand not from people transacting more on blockchains but from agents transacting more on blockchains on our behalf. You know that that's that's a story that I think will probably take several years to play out but is interesting and and is compelling to me. I think the other component of this is how AI agents or automation will impact both uh let's call it entertainment finance. you know, people participating in uh protocols onchain today that certainly offer financial exposure but

are are fun. [laughter] Uh and you know, kind of shifting from well, I'm you know, trading directly uh because this is the current thing to I'm trading through my agent and and how does that impact the trading experience uh you know, I I think there probably will be a lot of second order effects of that. Uh and then also the idea that uh you know, an agent can be managing my money for me. I I think uh both within crypto and finance generally speaking, there's an interesting opportunity for wealth management uh with people who have assets, you know, well south of what would usually be required to go get an account at a a large GIB wealth management division, but you know, folks that have enough money and and sort of want sophisticated wealth management in

advice in excess of what you would get by buying, you know, indices or bonds through through your existing brokerage or, you know, constructing a a simple portfolio on chain. I I think there's an interesting opportunity for how uh AI wealth management will happen there and that would probably manifest uh soonest onchain in the form of AI aided vault curation or you know even from a user perspective kind of an automated wealthfront like experience into you know having the opportunity to to effectively deploy capital on chain. So I I I think it you know will manifest in many different places uh but that's some of where where I'm thinking about it today.

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>> There's so much in the question. I asked that there's too much in the answer for me to even process, but I I really like hearing your thoughts on on that though because just like you said, no, it's it's great. I like it's it's really useful to hear somebody who's very deep in the weeds on this kind of talk through how they think about this cuz just like you said, it's not just going to be like one simple thing. There'll be many and many changes and then many second order changes at all different levels of this as as it kind of develops from here. Um guy, you know, we're coming up on time here, so I want to kind of like get your thoughts on something that's a little bit more closer to home for some of our audience, uh which is this sentiment gulf that

we've seen, right? As uh institutions have gotten more bullish than ever on digital assets and and coming in with size into the digital asset industry, >> it seems like retail investors and retail sentiment has never been lower. And you know, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this and just maybe, you know, what's your favorite opium right now for for a retail audience who's kind of burnt out, checked out on on crypto? Uh, what's got you still excited about this space in this industry? >> Yeah. Well, I I think I'm personally just uh I think emotionally I don't get too high and I don't get too low, which is uh probably kind of predisposes me to to crypto where everything is is highly volatile, let's say. Maybe that's the polite way to put it. I I I think part part of the sentiment gap is that uh in

in many ways things really seem to be working. If you look at stablecoin adoption, if you look at institutional interest in or direct adoption of blockchains, uh if you look at you know things like how per volume has scaled in the last couple of years, how those have become a really important vehicle for uh you know synthetic exposure to traditional assets especially for people in developing countries. I I I think like many things seem to be working at a product level. uh unfortunately you know the the product cycle I think is often decoupled from a financial cycle and so you know certainly I think some of the the sentiment gap comes from that and then I I think the second component of the sentiment gap is that you know I I certainly got interested in crypto uh

let's say at least largely for ideological reasons if not uh you know significantly for ideological reasons and if if you became interested in crypto from that perspective where you kind of wanted to replace the existing financial system or change how the government works and now uh everything that you have been built is helping to like improve the efficiency and transparency of the existing systems. You could either take the perspective of well I'm not getting everything I wanted but I'm getting a lot of it or you could say I'm not getting everything I wanted. I'm very sad and I I I think you know different people have taken taken different choices there. Uh one thing I think about a lot there's a a really good book called working in public that uh uh I think it was Nadia Asprova wrote

a number of years ago about the uh free and open source software movement which started also as a very ideological movement and many of the kind of fathers and mothers of that movement over time uh were more or less canled uh as a result of open source software being you know an ideological movement that eventually became GitHub owned by Microsoft and if you were one of the early people who's super interested in openour source, you're probably like pretty unsatisfied by GitHub owned by Microsoft. Uh, on the other hand, by default, when someone writes code now, it's open source. And I I think like the transparency and and public benefit that open source brought as a whole, uh, the added composability, which almost certainly has made software products more valuable over time, like all of

that I think was incredibly positive, but you did not get exactly everything you wanted. And and I I think the other version of this analogy would be, you know, crypto is a a technological revolution, but it also looks a lot like a literal revolution. And so if we're we're, you know, going to kind of compare where crypto is today to the to the French Revolution or to the American Revolution or something, I think you needed the inciting uh energy and ideology to convince people to make a big shift. But at some point, you also can't do forever revolution and you have to govern the country. And I I I think crypto as an industry is kind of grappling with that opportunity where uh you know everything could have been perfect in theory and now we have what I think is a very positive definite future

but it is not you know indefinitely optimistic in that that it will be kind of utopian. And so yeah I mean I remain very personally positive but I can understand why uh some other people are maybe maybe a little less uh you know maybe a little less that way. >> Yeah. Well, there's always a gulf between the ideal and the reality, but I think we are living in a reality where digital assets are finding a real adoption in the world and and making a real impact and real changes are happening. So, all that's very positive. Uh guy, look, I really appreciate you coming on the Milk Road Show to share all of this with us. Where can we send people to find more of you and your work online?

>> I'm on Twitter. Please DM me. Uh if you're starting a company and and you know, you're interested in in uh improving the future of financial services, you're you're interested in blockchain infrastructure, I'd love to talk to you. Uh, and it's it's pleasure to be be with uh be with you here, John. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. >> Yeah, it is a really great conversation. I wish you all the best with Deepen and all the other stuff you guys are focused on. I hope we can have you back on the show again soon. >> Fantastic. Thank you. >> Thank you all for joining us. I hope you all learned something today. So, until next time, stay safe, stay educated, stay bullish, and we will see you all on the next episode of the Milkro Show.

Thanks for being here, everyone. Bye. >> Want insights on what's moving crypto markets and how [music] we're trading each event? Subscribe to our channel and join the Milk Growth Daily and Pro Newsletters and start investing like the top [music] 1%. This show is for educational purposes only. Nothing we say is financial advice. Investing is risky. Never invest more than you can afford to lose.