Gregory Landua: Regen Network – The Blockchain for Planetary Regeneration #440

Transcript

Not speaking. Um, yeah, I'll mute you. Welcome to the epicenter, the show which talks about the technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. I'm Sebastian Gutierrez and I'm here with my co-host Brian Fabian Crane and today we're speaking with

Gregory Landua, who is the CEO and co-founder of Regen. Before we talk to Gregory though, I'd like to tell you about our sponsors this week. Gnosis Safe is a smart wallet that enables you to control your digital assets with much more granular permissions involving multiple private keys, a subset of which is required for executing transactions. These keys can be stored in different hardware or software wallets or even be stored across multiple people. Gnosis Safe security and personalization makes it the most trusted Web3 asset management solution for individuals, teams, and DAOs who already use it to store more than 70 billion dollars uh worth of digital assets.

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Tally Ho community edition and play around with some of the features uh before it's upcoming V1 and DAO launch. Um Gregory, hey, thanks for joining us. It's like really great to have you. We've you know, you you're like I think one of the people that um I think we've been wanting to have on for so long. Like I I you know, Brian and I would always be like, "Yeah, when when should we have Gregory on? When should we have him gone?" And like now is the right time to have you on. Um and so yeah, we're going to be talking about regen. Um carbon credits, I think like I really want to try to understand what carbon credits are, what what they provide, I think to like the whole um climate change uh

sort of initiative and um yeah, where regen fits in the broader blockchain ecosystem. Awesome. Yeah, it's great to be here, Sebastian and Brian and listeners. Always I've been a long time I mean friends first first and foremost. It's been awesome interacting with you guys out in the larger ecosystem for for some years now, but also Epicenter was one of my first sources of information as I started drinking through the crypto firehose uh you know, as we started building regen.

So, just super grateful for the in-depth interviews and the and the space that you provide just the whole spectrum. So, it's an honor to be here and get to do a deep dive into regen network. Cool. Fantastic. Yeah, I mean we've I think both Sebastian and I we've been aware of regen for quite a long time. Uh you know, also with chorus one, right? We've been running validators for a long time. We've been supporting in different ways. Also invested in regen, right? So, there's a kind of a and you know, and it's been I remember in 2019 I think was it you know there was the Cosmos hackathon in Berlin right where you know I guess met in person.

But let's maybe let's sort of step a little bit back. Tell us a bit about like your journey and how how did you end up working on region network? Yeah well it's been a journey for sure. Um Let's see. So I'm just adjusting to looking at my face as I'm as I'm talking just a second. I'm going to minimize myself here so I can just talk. Um Let me know if I drift out of the the screen. So yeah my background wasn't in computer science or blockchain per se when we decided to really

go all in on region network. So my background before digging in sort of full-time into the web 3 space was actually in regenerative agriculture and permaculture and working on supply chains. And so I think Sebastian the first time you and I met was at like a supply blockchain supply chain conference or something which was very random way back then. Yeah, I think that was back in the days of of stratum when when we were trying to figure out what the hell we were going to do with this technology and supply chain traceability was one of those things. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah exactly. And so my background was in building transparent direct supply chains pre-blockchain right? And so I was working to create direct trade fair trade organic sourcing solutions for companies that wanted to be able to have positive climate impact you know be shifting to agricultural systems that actually were sequestering carbon out of the atmosphere, wanted to have premium products. And so my my background is really working at that intersection, which is a lot of different stakeholders. And a lot of the issues that arise in these sort of international supply chain situations,

um you know, it's it's multi-stakeholder trust issues. And so um uh sort of taking a step back, I also spent a fair bit of time um early in my career working on on local alternative currency systems like local local exchange trading system, LETS, um and other kind of complementary currency systems uh sort of pre-Bitcoin white paper. I was working on some of that stuff. So I've been tracking Bitcoin as it emerged and uh and and Ethereum as it emerged with a lot of interest around sort of experimentation in monetary

theory, in financial instrumentation, and then also in in these concepts of what does it look like to create uh the right public infrastructure for groups that don't necessarily trust each other to utilize. And And then this like the last thing I'll say in in terms of just introduction to myself is I've I've long time been kind of obsessed with how to overcome I guess what in the in the Web3 or blockchain space we refer to as coordination errors, where because of the game theory uh of like prisoner's dilemma style games, we tend individuals tend to um

maybe have impacts that they don't want to have on public the like the public sphere. Like climate change is just the classic example of this. Like nobody wants to be polluting the atmosphere. Nobody wants to be degrading the health of the ecosystems that we all rely on. But sort of business incentives are to incentivize short-term gain, um because that's you know, that's how you secure what you need for your family. Or, you know, that's how you become wealthy in the system. And so, how do we reinvent the economics the economic relationships and to

realign short-term profit with long-term ecological health is kind of the uh I guess problem space that we've been working on at Regen Network for the last I guess we're it's going on And so, you you were working on these problems, right? You're interested in your planetary regeneration and a bunch of those related things, coordination problems. And what was it in, you know, crypto and blockchain that you saw and you know, what was kind of this, you know, initial vision that drove you to start Regen Network?

Yeah so the integration of moneyness, right? Of value, the internet of value, the internet of money. Number one. Number two, um pub- the idea of public infrastructure and in our case for public goods. Right? So, just I'm I was started to be very fascinated with the narrative of public infrastructure that started to emerge really around Ethereum. That was sort of like a an Ethereum idea.

Um and then um the last piece I would say is sort of mechanism design. And and all of those things converging in the blockchain space, I I was a little curmudgeonly at the beginning. I was pretty resistant. You know, um I was lucky enough to have sort of social relationships with folks who had been all in and very very early on in ethereum and who had been like hey Gregory, you know, you're doing this regenerative Enterprise thing. You know, you wrote this book and you've been innovating here like this is really cool. You should be thinking about you know, launch an ICO or do a dow or something like that and at the beginning I was pretty skeptical for a lot of ways and and actually it took me starting to

engage in a way on my own yet like you know, the Overton window the the the thought space the idea of a large community of people engaging with the experimentation around these topics is really what drew me in. That's really what I was like okay, you know, this is the time. This is the time to go all in on exploring what it looks like to leverage this new set of distributed Ledger Technologies we've always been biased towards public Ledger's public blockchains to sort of like innovate in the problem space that I've been working on for for many many years.

Um, so I have to say it wasn't until really running into the cosmos ecosystem that I felt like there was a match between the ethos and philosophy from my perspective around what blockchain technology actually needs to be able to do for people to match sort of the reality of social organization the the reality of ecological sort of the ecological use case and so a lot of my skepticism around the approach that I was seeing in ethereum started to you know, I started to get really excited when I started to in my you know, and at this point I'd already decided like we're all in as a team we had started working and researching and innovating and

imagining what does it look like to have a public blockchain dedicated to ecological data, claims, and assets? We were already there. We were already saying, "Okay, we want a public ledger to catalyze planetary regeneration and create tools to fight climate change with market mechanisms." So, we were already all in on that, and then we were going through a pretty pretty deep dive process around vetting the different approaches. At that time, there weren't a lot of them, you know? But, at that time, Tendermint consensus did exist, and we sort of ran across this idea of sort of modular application-specific blockchains and the ability to match a state machine or consensus to a

particular community and particular set of needs. And, you know, immediately that resonated with us, and we started really sort of like innovating and engaging with that as the approach that we thought was best suited to sort of the the larger um domain of climate and ecological health. What was it about the Cosmos architecture that you you resonated so much with you? Um application-and-community-specific blockchains, number one. So, this concept of interoperability with sovereignty.

Um which at that time hadn't been achieved technologically, but that's what everybody was working on, and that's why, you know, you have to make trade-offs in tech. And so, the trade-offs that were made in Tendermint consensus were around trying to create sort of a fast finality consensus mechanism that could be compatible with interoperability across an internet of blockchains, right? And that's, I think, uh really important, especially for the ecological and climate use cases because, you know, we're dealing with public goods. We're dealing with a mix of grassroots and sort of institutional actors. And you really need to be able

to build something that doesn't force people into one chain to rule them all and one sort of like standard operating system because that's just not how humans work, especially in these complex sort of like multi-polar uh issues like climate change. Like people really need to be able to encode their own governance logic and their own standards, but you have to be able to interoperate and kind of compile that because it is a global problem, but it requires local action. And so, you know, trying to force everybody to use the same e-technological solution and have the same security assumptions and same governance assumptions, when you're working across sort of like stakeholders, scientists, land stewards, governmental agencies, corporations, to

sort of try to generate, you know, that's not what you want to be arguing about. You know, that's not what you want to be fighting for. You want to give people the a set of tools that can be assembled, that you can sort of create a a larger sort of outcome, climate action for instance, without forcing people to all adopt a single blockchain that, you know, in the in the Ethereum back in the day, in the Ethereum case that also is being used for CryptoKitties. I mean, come on, it wasn't really I think a viable option at that at that point. So, you know, on the other hand, Cosmos always provided this really uh dynamic and attractive option to really be able to again have sovereignty over the use case. And so,

as you were mentioning, you know, Brian, when we first met in person, it was at the uh interchain conversations, which was really the first time that the Cosmos community came together uh you know, in person back in 2019, early 2019. Um or sort of early summer of 2019. And at that time, the the the work that we did trying to source, what does a layer one blockchain need to look like, feel like, what are the features that need to be baked into it if we're considering the set of stakeholders that we have, which isn't, you know, our use case and our stakeholders are not simply sort of like pseudonymous crypto speculation, right?

We're talking about, um, sort of baking in applied cryptography to create an auditable claims trail around assets or supply chains, these sorts of things. We're talking about the governance of whether it's data standards or methodological standards, but we're integrating that into sort of a money stack where people are able to mint uh, digital representations of real-world assets like carbon credits. Um, the use case that that that use case requires some very specific things from a layer one blockchain, right? It It It requires, um, the ability to have flexible key management solutions where, uh, an actor

might be able to sign might not be required to have full custodial command over a public private key set because they not may not be able to. You sort of need to like cross-integrate with more of a web two audience, but you need cryptographic for instance around certifying or creating attestation around lab results or scientific samples. So, you need to be able to like grant sort of attestation permission that is really robust, but people don't necessarily need to be managing the full capability of a public private key set in the classical, like, your money, your keys sense, right? Um, but you do need to guarantee that attestation in a similar

sort of way. So, starting the modularity, the ability for us to modify the layer one blockchain to meet the specific use cases of sort of ecological accounting was really attractive to us, especially because folks may or may not know, but we're you know, we're pretty deep we have quite a deep bench in terms of engineering capability at R&D Inc, Region Network Development Incorporated, the company I'm CEO of. Um that develops Region Ledger, the public blockchain securing Region Network, but also we're the tech lead and maintainer now of the Cosmos SDK. And that was essentially because we had started digging in and

contributing to that codebase because we needed a layer one solution that fit our use case, and we just gradually became sort of the lead contributor. All kudos to Aaron Craelius who some point you guys should have on to just talk about sort of Cosmos SDK and the roadmap to you know, where things are evolving in there. But that's that really sort of like sovereign control over a layer one to specifically build the bespoke logic for and and governance apparatus for a specific use case in a specific community, there really isn't another solution and community and ecosystem that's as supportive and on as focused on that specific sort of

use case, really. Yeah, I I think this is one of the most powerful things about about the Cosmos SDK and that technology stack that I think a lot of people don't realize is this ability to create sovereign chains is what you know, we're talking earlier about back in the day when you know, I was I was doing more like enterprise stuff, you know, the demand for sovereign blockchains where certain types of use cases that really can't live on public blockchains or at least today are difficult to host on public blockchains.

Those use cases are just right for technologies like Cosmos and you know in my in my like day-to-day evangelism like I I I I spend a lot of time you know speaking with folks in more like traditional industries like banking and finance and insurance and you know explaining to them that this technology when used when when used with by a single stakeholder can act as a way to bootstrap a blockchain use case as a centralized like in a centralized way one where stakeholders can be vetted and controlled and then as

you know as as as uh um as attitudes change as perhaps regulations change as use cases evolve and adapt you can then start bringing in extra stakeholders connecting to IBC and it's almost like you know the it's almost like the the the the the the companies that were using that were building intranets back in the 90s well one day they just like plugged into the router and they were connected to to TCP IP and they were connected to to the rest of the internet so I finally like the Cosmos SDK is just perfect for that and I I think not enough people realize this kind of superpower.

Um you know I I I think I I I'd like to spend some time here talking about carbon credits cuz like we all hear about carbon credits and they like but I I don't have a good understanding of what a carbon credit actually is who issues them what they represent if they have any meaningful impact on climate change um are is Is like one carbon credit or many carbon credits Are they fungible? Like I've got so many questions here and I think, you know, you could probably enlighten us a little bit on um what these things actually are.

Yeah, I'll do my best. Um carbon accounting is complex and and complicate even complicated. Um so I'll I'll sort of try to start at a pattern level and then we can get down into sort of like concrete ways that, you know, that sort of like using a public blockchain is pretty transformative in uh climate accounting and climate finance, broadly in carbon markets specifically. So at a high level carbon markets, um I think are last year were maybe 400 billion or so um dollar market cap. Um only uh a little more than 1 billion dollars is traded

was traded last year centered around the voluntary carbon markets, which is the space that Regen Network is first focused on in terms of our our go-to-market strategy. Uh still not small, but um so you can distinguish between sort of the compliance markets and the voluntary carbon markets. Um generally speaking, carbon credits are a commodity. So what does that mean? That means that they're used for something, right? So they they're used to offset carbon emissions.

Uh so its value is in its utility. Right? Just like wheat is is useful to bake bread and you have to actually use that wheat to get the bread, carbon credits are only useful as instruments to retire and count on a carbon balance sheet, essentially. So there's lots of questions people ask. There are two major drivers for carbon as a commodity and the demand for carbon as a commodity. One is broadly speaking sort of the compliance markets, like the Eurozone, um the European Union has a compliance carbon market. Uh earlier this year uh carbon was trading at over $100 per ton,

just a little under 100 euros per ton and high, and that's the current price of emitting carbon in Europe, right? And so what is like So just talking about compliance carbon markets, what does that mean? That means that the sort of the European Union set uh a boundary of carbon emissions that were acceptable in the economy, and that boundary is going to be ratcheting down over the years according to adherence with sort of international treaties and uh science-based climate accounting to try to bring that sort of like the the biggest economy in the world, which is the Eurozone, down into sort of a carbon

neutrality, right? Um So uh carbon credits are what you use if you go above your carbon allotment essentially. Um and you you use that to balance, and that carbon allotment is shrinking, you know, at a per annum basis essentially, and that's a called a cap and trade market, where you have put a cap, and then you can trade, you can buy other people's allotments, or you can buy offsets, right? And that the carbon this allotment is like the government saying for like each company, or or like how does that work?

They're sectoral, um and and I'm not an expert, just disclaimer, I'm not an expert in the in the Eurozone compliance carbon markets. I mean, I'm generally educated, but I'm not a a deep expert. But my understanding is yeah, they're sort of like per country allotments and per sort of industrial sector allot allotments, and then companies are basically trading to access those allotments essentially. Right? So, there's a market mechanism to put a value or a price tag on carbon. Okay, stepping back, what's the voluntary carbon market um which is like North in North America, there are like the Northeast of the United States has a cap and trade system, California has a cap and trade system, but as a economic

block North America or like NAFTA or whatever the economic zone Canada, United States, there isn't a fully fledged compliance carbon market. There's vol- a lot of voluntary carbon mechanisms. And people might say, "Oh, well, why is that even valuable? Is this just greenwashing? Does it even matter?" There's a couple things that have happened over the last couple of years to drive, you know, massive year-over-year increase in these voluntary carbon markets in addition to the compliance markets. And that essentially is a cultural shift in the corporate world to start to include carbon as a carbon emissions as a liability on the balance

sheet. So, what I mean there is leading like insurance companies or reinsurance companies like Swiss Re, leading banking institutions. Recently, the SEC basically just released guidance that they're going to be enforcing carbon accounting for public companies. So, these are all signals that are not These are like semi regulation, but mostly sort of, you know, just like the the corporate economic apparatus. These are These are signals. These are sending signals that carbon emissions have economic risk.

And that the actuary tables and the bank- the bankers are saying unless you're incorporating the economic risk of carbon emissions into your company's decision-making, uh we're not going to lend to you. We're not going to insure you. And so what's happened over the last couple of years, and this took 20 plus years of sort of like science and engagement and process, but it just in the last like 2 years it's really crystallized so that it's becoming increasingly common for boards to be including uh

adherence to in quotes net zero pledges, which means companies setting a date where they're going to have a completely balanced carbon budget, that's net zero, or science-based goals, which means tracking with international treaties like the Paris Climate Agreement. Boards and and shareholders are enforcing adherence to those as part of the definition of fiduciary duty. So what that means is that now all of a sudden um executives are being held accountable for carbon emissions. What does that mean? That means that they have to find the cheapest possible way to meet those goals. So that's what's driving this massive it's like 40% year-over-year

increase in the voluntary carbon markets, which is where Regen Network at the moment is really innovating. So it's huge demand spike. There's a There's a shortage of supply. Um so carbon credits are a a commodity that allows you to balance a carbon budget. Now, there's you know, there's a lot of complexity here, you know, there's different types of carbon credits. There's carbon credits that represent avoided emissions like renewable energy or um or forest conservation like not chopping things down. So actions that would have resulted emissions that can prove you can prove that they didn't happen specifically because you you purchased that, you know, credit and funded that action not being taken. And

then there's carbon credits that are carbon removals where you're actually measuring carbon sequestration into soil or from a direct air capture system or something where you're removing atmospheric carbon and storing it somehow for some period of time. So, there's obviously the the big challenge with carbon credits is monitoring, verifying, and quantifying an invisible gas and the actions of that invisible gas both emissions and and reductions. And so, there's a lot of science that goes into that. There's models, there's data collection.

And really what we're up to at Regen Network is building sort of a public accounting, science, and market infrastructure for that uh that use case, right? So, so that the there's transparency around who is saying what about where, using what data, and what methodology, and what the, you know, end result was asset issuance of like a carbon credit so that that's all baked in to essentially create a non-fungible asset that represents that unique uh sort of um carbon reduction or emission reduction to create a carbon credit that can be purchased to offset for a company or a blockchain as just happened with

Osmosis. So, so this is one of the things about carbon credits that I I I think I I um I don't really understand or seems um I don't know. It It seems a bit weird. It's like how how does one measure the actual impact of actions taken to offset carbon? And um are these things meant to be fungible and if they are, like how how do you even get to compare or say I don't know, planting a thousand trees or you know, whatever like whatever other action one could take to reduce carbon like planting like having a green

pastures with cows on it like regenerating the land or something like that which I know is something you're you're working on like Oh yeah, how's that work? Great question. Great question. So at a top level I would argue that um no, uh carbon not all carbon is created equally and there's sort of a non-fungible essence. Oh, there's there's like fungibility and non-fungibility. So on one hand you know as far as the global impact is concerned pulling a metric ton and you know, usually carbon markets operate at the ton level.

Right? So the ton is the standard unit. So pulling out of one metric ton of carbon out of the atmosphere has the same effect whether it's soil or a forest or you know, reduced emissions or direct air capture. It has the same effect to the global climate quandary. So it produces the same public good, the the same non-excludable public good which is sort of like a climate stabilization action or it's a unit of climate stabilization.

But it's also non-fungible because each of those different options has a different system for verification and different what are called co-benefits. So a co-benefit is to say is things like if you increase soil organic matter in a farm, that also happens to reduce flood risk because when you increase soil organic matter in a farm, it's sort of creating a sponge. You're creating more organic matter, so more water is caught and stored. So, that reduces flood risk downstream. It also reduces uh drought risk. It also creates more nutrient-dense crops. There's all these

co-benefits of soil carbon, for instance. Like, it does other good things both for the farmer and for society in addition to that like larger benefit to the whole global economy and the whole sort of sort of society as a whole. So, there's both fungibility, which is that unit of carbon, and there's like a global problem, and and carbon is carbon, right? And removing it or emitting it has the same global impact, right? Um but it's also non-fungible because depending on where that carbon is sequestered or put into living systems or non-living systems has different co-benefits or value.

And as I said, it's also kind of non-fungible because the the the the the approach to verifying that that carbon is somewhere um varies, and the certainty level in which these claims are made varies. And so, um there's sort of two price axes for valuing a carbon credit. On one price axis, you have the certainty around the claim. How sure are you that that unit of carbon is where it we say it is, right? And that's there's both like the cheating side of that, where people could be cheating, but there's

also just uncertainty baked into the science, right? And so, quantifying that uncertainty and creating conditions where it's really hard to make false claims are two of the really important things that we work on at at Regen Network, and leveraging blockchain, but also leveraging just good old-fashioned science. Like, we do a lot of remote sensing. We have a really big community leveraging machine learning and remote sensing and sort of advanced data science to to sort of bring to bear on that question. And the other axis of value is is how valuable what are the co-benefits? How valuable is that unit of carbon? Is the only value that it has related to the the global market value

of that action of mitigating climate risk? Or does it have extra co-benefits like mitigating flood risk that an insurance company might want to pay for? So you get price discovery on these two axes, which means that there isn't necessarily fungibility between all carbon assets. We can go on a sort of deep dive around how we're dealing with fungibility and sort of creating, you know, uh commodif- like commodifi- commodification versus non-fungible sort of specific markets. And both of those are use cases that we're building for at Regen Network.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean I can I can sort of I guess provide like, you know, with course one it is also actually something that we we kind of like wanted to do from the start, right? It was like, "Okay, you know, we're working on proof of stake and uh of course the carbon footprint is already like much much much lower than proof of work, but still like, "Okay, can you like offset that?" And you know, we worked back then with with the Regen team. This was actually 2019, I think we started working on it, right? To like estimate the the carbon footprint and then offset this in 2020. We wanted to do it on Regen. You guys weren't ready then, so we ended up using another platform. But I mean, I think that's definitely one of the cool things here. And I think in where you're going, right, is that you

then can see, "Okay, there's like this specific place, right, where you had this specific impact." And and so I think it makes a lot of makes a lot of sense. And you know, let's say in our case and we were surprised actually how cheap it was to offset and how you know, I mean maybe offset like I don't know, three times as much as something I think than we actually uh but it was not much. Of course, other industries have uh can be much more of a challenge, right? If they and but let's get into region um and kind of dive into how uh you know, how region addresses this.

Um I don't know, where do you want to start with region? Well, let's start at the pattern level. So just to give people an understanding like what are we building at region? We're building an ecological asset issuance system. It we're we're building an origination system. So that people can come and issue carbon credits, biodiversity credits, and other forms of assets that are not necessarily the classical just like, you know, we've been talking about carbon credits where you you're sort of like setting a carbon goal or baseline and then you have emissions and then you have offsets and you're balancing those uh in order to sort of like balance a a carbon budget, right? And that's one use

case for ecological assets, but there's sort of an emerging explosion of ecological assets and natural capital assets that are similar where you're saying there is this intrinsic value that is essential to our economy that is, you know, conservation or regeneration of living systems. And it balances our climate, it creates healthy food, it creates it mitigates flood risk, it preserves biodiversity that we need for, you know, pharmaceuticals, that we need for climate stability, that we value because of its aesthetic beauty, because it's part of our human legacy. So there's all these reasons why that's sort of

untapped reservoir of economic value that we need to represent. You know, sort of like we need pulling out of the carbon tunnel vision. You know, there's sort of a a demand at this stage of human evolution that we can appropriately value an old growth tree not just as the board feet of lumber, but also for its intrinsic value because we've noticed that as a society, when we don't incorporate those economic values, this is sort of harkening back to the beginning introduction that I gave around my motivations here, you know, that when we don't appropriately value

these common goods, these public goods in our economic transactions, we tend to deeply regret for many reasons actions that we take because they make short-term economic logic. So, there's this overarching piece, which is sort of bringing natural and living capital in in and representing it economically and creating an apparatus that's transparent, as inexpensive as possible, as high integrity as possible for generating these claims and minting assets that represent this living and natural capital. And, you know, the the carbon markets and specifically voluntary carbon markets are really the go-to

market strategy where we're having the most success. So, we produced and minted carbon credits based on regenerative grazing for instance, as you were mentioning Sebastian back at the beginning of 2020. All of those credits were purchased by Microsoft before they even hit the blockchain, basically. There's a lot of demand for high-quality ecological credits, especially carbon credits. We're sort of innovating to try to provide liquidity there minting mechanisms and and robust science to back all of that up right in our go to market strategy but there's really a bigger mission here and that mission is yeah serving as an origination system as a full stack origination system for a

new asset class for a new form of financial value that is regenerative that aligns our short-term economic um wealth with long-term ecological health and regeneration. So that's kind of like the pattern level and then the details of how we're building that asset origination system we've talked about the Cosmos SDK so there's a public blockchain that is focused on the data attestations and claims and and asset minting and tracking all of that in the state machine making it possible for people to govern different standards

and fully integrating that into an order book decks that then fully integrates into AMM systems. So you have this like stack of the asset origination into the market system that's being built that is essentially regen network. Cool. Yeah I mean I think it makes so much sense right I mean I think if you think also of the voluntary carbon market I think if if you know if if I had like an easy way of being like hey what's my carbon footprint first of all answering that question right this but then if you if you could like just see that more easily and then be like oh let me offset that I mean I think a lot

of people would do that. Yeah exactly and so right now we're building with with the you know with a group of stakeholders in the Cosmos ecosystem we're building this carbon zero program out which Chorus one was one of the early innovators. We did a lot of work with Chorus in the early days to estimate validator emissions. We also did a bunch of work to estimate proof of work emissions, uh to sort of create these first sort of life cycle carbon analysis tools, which at the beginning they're Excel spreadsheets, and then they migrated over to GitHub, and then they're we're building sort of standards bodies around those. So, that creates sort of a a transparent carbon accounting system.

And then, you know, basically we're building tools to be able to quantify emissions, and then automate offsetting. And so, Osmosis recently offset itself, and then pre-purchased a bunch of carbon to do initial protocol owned liquidity into the carbon market. Now, we're going to the Cosmos Hub and and working with the Cosmos Hub at a protocol level. So, it doesn't need to be necessarily validator by validator, but instead we can do protocol by protocol, or validator by validator, or asset by asset. So, you could, for instance, be automatically offsetting NFTs, or in the future we'll be we've we've been doing some R&D with um F2

Pool and other big Bitcoin miners around what it looks like to sort of like have a washing machine where you can bring Bitcoin to Regen via a bridge like Axelar or ThorChain or something, you know, lock that on Regen ledger, and reissue a new green Bitcoin that's been fully offset. And what Why is that valuable? Well, that's valuable because it becomes a form of collateral, a form of money that has reduced its negative externality. So, I think there's this competition. Like, if if we're doing anything in the crypto space, it's competing to have the best money. So, to have the best money, you need to have the most positive goods, the most public

benefits with the least negative externality. So, just imagine if we can automate taking out environmental externality from money systems, whether it's Bitcoin or Regen or Atoms or whatever it is, then all of a sudden those money systems are more competitive, they're more compelling. All of a sudden they can scale better, they can scale faster. So, this is like a core part of why there's really big demand for this sort of like both the assets and the features to integrate that into DeFi. Yeah. All those people who All those people who, you know, criticize Bitcoin for being non-environmentally friendly, well, they can they can finally they can finally sleep sleep sleep tight knowing that we

have a green Bitcoin. If we want it, right? So, that's something that we can that we're like tracking rapidly towards being able to provide as a service, right? But, that's just one example of sort of like using an offsetting module where you can estimate carbon emissions, generate sort of like one side of the ledger, and then in, you know, issue credits, and and sort of like bundle those around an asset, wrap it asset in those eco credits. You can do that with You could do that around a whole blockchain, you could do that again around an NFT. You can also do that around sort of like off-chain entities like corporations. So, it's sort of like baking in this sort of like ecological accounting into the economy

in a way that's really deeply compatible with institutional sort of like trajectories around ESG and climate accounting, but also what I get very excited about is I think it positions the DeFi space and crypto space and, you know, our Cosmos ecosystem as a place where we can with agility and innovation, we can sort of like outpace the existing financial system and really prove that this is transparent, it generates these public goods, we are removing the negative externalities of of climate impact, and creating just a better system for financial exchange take place. And that's that gets me

really excited. So, let let's let's dive into uh So, I think for for a long time I kind of like understood the region region, but then it's like, okay, where is sort of like the product, right? And I think now you guys seem to be kind of at the you know, at the cusp of having you know, what looks like to me like the first kind of real product, right? Which is this nature carbon ton. And I think on your website, right, you have this description, okay, so it's a premium digital carbon basket of nature-based impact projects.

And then uh and then you also describe it as, you know, IBC compatible fungible NCT token. And you have a bunch of other stuff that was like, what does this mean? There's something about vintage, something about rolling acceptance window, which I was like, I don't quite understand that. So, I'd love if you could explain a little bit. Like, how does this NCT token work? Yeah, sure. So, um NCT is um a basket of nature-based carbon credits that meet a set of standards, right? And in this case, we're using an

off-chain carbon registry called Vera. And so, there's an existing market. There's There's sort of um there's liquidity. And there's sort of like an off-chain trust system for these credits. You know, while we're building out our on-chain trust system for credits like the carbon plus grasslands and the the other and carbon plus agroforestry and about 40 other different types of eco credits that are being innovated to be natively on chain and minted. The first minting is onto the ledger. NCT is really bridging from existing markets. So, it's bringing the an asset that has off-chain price discovery and trading. It's tokenizing it on chain with our partners at Toucan,

bringing it onto Regen Ledger, and minting it as an eco credit with carbon units, 1 ton of carbon, with the metadata associated with the the project. Vintage means what year was it um produced, right? What year was this carbon credit produced, which associates it with the methodology and all of the verification data. So, we bring that all on chain, so you see what you you're getting. Anchoring the retirement functionality on Regen Ledger, and then making it possible to move that into what we call a basket, which is basically like saying all of these different credit types with

the following standards can be considered fungible amongst each other in order to build liquidity. So, basically pooling all of that, and then make that gets turned into a bank denom in in the Cosmos SDK, which enables IBC compatibility, which means that we can then export it from Regen Ledger over to Osmosis for, you know, to create a Regen NCT trading pair, or over to Gravity Dex, or Sifchain, or or and and then it can come back and be retired on Regen.

So, you sort of like take it back out of the basket and you retire it and are issued a certificate of retirement. So, at the moment what we what we have right now is the eco credit module, which is the representation of these eco credits and their standards on chain, the ability to issue, the ability to retire, the ability to exchange, and the ability to cancel uh eco-credits like carbon credits, and the ability to basket them and turn them into an IBC token according to um sort of like arbitrary standards of fungibility, where you can go in and you can create your own basket, right? And we've created the first NCT basket in collaboration with a with a sort of an ecosystem of actors. We didn't act

independently. This is meant to be an interchain standard, not like a regen standard for NCT. So, we collaborate with people over in the Ethereum world and that you know, validators, the the blockchain carbon offsetting infrastructure working group AWG, Toucan um Moss, other folks. We're all involved in this. So, we're just sort of like adopting that so that we have an interchain NCT standard, and that creates the idea is that can create an enormous amount of liquidity and, you know, fungibility so that we do have some efficient market mechanisms around this initial interchain carbon asset that's coming to market. And so, right now, what we have the the ability to do is to just sort of like command line

issuance and retirement and, you know, trading, right? But coming in mid-May, coming up really soon, there's going to be an upgrade to regen ledger 4.0. Uh accompanying that will be a set of interfaces. And that will enable people to just go onto regen.network/marketplace and buy, sell, retire, basket, and move credits over to Osmosis and either pool them into liquidity, which if Osmosis community votes on, will be incentivized, creating a yield-earning carbon assets, which is pretty exciting, um or trade it. So, there's like this suite of functionalities. It's taken us a while to build all of out because we've

been working on both the science side, you know, how do you generate these standards, how do you dig into high integrity assets. We've also been working on this layer one blockchain that makes all this possible, contributing to the Cosmos SDK. So, it's taken us sort of time to bring all this together. But, yeah, this is in May, this is like really the first time that, you know, the minimum viable feature set for sort of regenerative assets in Cosmos Phi is going to be coming online. So, super excited about it. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Like, you now you kind of go on the website, you see this nature carbon token. And it was like, but like, where do I buy it?

How do I do I like interact with that? So, like, that that thing that would be really cool and great to have. Yeah, so right now, what we're doing in terms of selling NCT is like we did a governance process with the Osmosis community for the Osmosis community to basically pre-buy a big chunk of NCT. We're going to do the same thing with Cosmos Hub if validators are interested. So, we're sort of like building community liquidity around it to start with. And then there'll be sort of this public launch where people where anybody can go. And there's not going to be like a, you know, this isn't about creating, like, there's no private sale where you get it cheaper now than later because we're sourcing something with an

off-chain price, right? So, people are purchasing it in order to do liquidity or in order to use it for offsetting. But, just to emphasize, this is a this is a commodity. This is like a real-world commodity. So, this isn't like a, hey, get in on the private sale and the price goes up. This is a we're creating market efficiency and the price on Osmosis, if we start pulling in liquidity, will relate to the price of this asset which will also exist also exists on Polygon and also exists off-chain. So, that we're trying to create this big market efficiency around this initial interchain carbon asset.

And um I'm curious like maybe you can talk a little bit about like that how do you see this this market here? Like do you think for example, is it something that's going to like increase in price over time because it maybe gets more expensive to offset carbon? Is it Is this Do you think this could become like a major Do you think there could be a sort of like that NCT itself could become something that's, you know, pooling like a huge amount of different carbon credits or that like how do you see that kind of evolve?

Yeah, well I mean I think broadly speaking um carbon assets are going to continue to get more expensive over time because they're going to be more and more scarce and more and more valuable as a commodity. So that's, you know, number one. NCT specifically I I think is going to get, you know, wide adoption and, you know, will also in, you know, I think this is not financial advice and it doesn't really have anything to do with us at Regen. We're just building infrastructure for this to be flowing through. So you know, I don't really have a I don't so much have skin in that game also to disclaimer that. Um the I mean I do own carbon credits but nowhere near enough to be making much money off

of it. The the um NCT itself is yeah, it's representative of what the current industry considers to be the highest quality nature-based carbon tons. Right? And I think you know disclaimer, we're also building a registry system and an asset origination system and there needs to be a community discussion around regen native credits and whether they're going to be bundled into the NCT basket, or if they're going to have their own basket.

So, you'll see a region carbon ton basket. And that's a conversation for the community to have, which is complicated and exciting, and I'm not sure the right answer to that question, honestly. But, at the time but the you know, again zooming back out, the larger thesis here, and this has played out over this recent you know, little tax dip, or whatever we've been in a couple like to this week, um you know, carbon assets didn't take a hit, even the on-chain ones, right?

Because they're coupled with a bigger economic trend, and so there's a really interesting case for the inclusion of carbon assets in as collateral as a part of investment portfolios. There's an increasing number of, you know, traditional finance folks who are going long on carbon, including it into hedge fund strategies. This is a way to bring and have exposure into DeFi, um portfolio creation, collateralization, you know, there's a bunch of stablecoins who are starting to consider or who are actively acquiring carbon assets, on-chain carbon assets, to act as collateral for stablecoin issuance. Why?

Because as an asset class, carbon is going to continue through external trends, because either we incorporate carbon into our global economy, or our global economy will fail. Like that's the facts of the matter, right? So, there's going to be more and more scarcity and more and more demand for carbon sequestration and reduction through these credits and the inclusion of it as a commodity and sending price signals and pricing carbon. So, the price of carbon, I think I I I don't think I'm saying anything that's sort of like unorthodox here. It is broadly considered across the board economists and and finance experts are all assuming

that the price of carbon is going to go continue to go up basically over the next 30 years. So, there's this really interesting inclusion of off-chain trends into on-chain financial assets that I think is I think it's pretty exciting when you start to think about assembling DeFi portfolios, etc. And again, our role at Regen Network is really just to be the tokenization and asset sort of origination infrastructure. So, if you think of like Terra's role in the giant emerging burgeoning crypto space and specifically Cosmos, it's to originate UST. Right? That's really what Terra's doing. And the ecosystem they

build around that is users of UST and smart contracts that integrate UST and all the thing. But, Terra's purpose is to create a decentralized stable coin that gets as big of adoption as possible. Well, Regen, what we're trying to do is be the origination system for interchain carbon and other ecological asset systems and get as many of those out and being utilized in you know, in in a myriad of different ways. But, our our purpose is to provide scientifically rigorous unique auditable ecological assets for the interchain economy.

That's super cool. Yeah, I'm I'm starting to get this vision here and how it fits into the broader crypto ecosystem and like yeah, the the the interplay between you know, these these assets these these assets that represent things in the real world onto onto blockchains. Yeah, I want to ask you a little bit about about your work on the Cosmos SDK. I know that Regen contributes to the Cosmos SDK by by feeding upstream the work that you you've done internally. But, you know, there there's these two modules that you've built.

You've built this ecocredits module and the and the data module. Um you know, what are these modules for? And uh I think more broadly, can these modules be generalized? Cuz I was like really I was just looking at the documentation earlier, and it seems like these modules could serve a more general purpose. And then, you know, perhaps like that makes it makes them easier to be um uh it makes it easier for uh the data produced by these modules to to transit over IBC. Um yeah, what's the what's what's the use case for these modules? And like what's the plan to to maybe generalize them?

Yeah, definitely. So, the ecocredit module is the module uh responsible for minting ecological assets, right? And so, it it it is sort of a a batch-based um somewhere between a fractional NFT, right? Where you're you're you're entering you're you're issuing a unique sort of uh you know, batch of credits. And you know, and sort of like a batch-based fungibility. So, so batches aren't fungible between each other, but they're fungible within each other. And and there's a set of It's like a token standard for ecological credits. So, it has, you know, the the units, it has, you know, methodology and class

information and issuance information and geolocation, all of the important attributes what that you would need for uh issuing an ecocredit. Is this broadly useful? Yes, if you would like to transact between the base ecocredits instead of turning them into fungible credits through the basketing them, other blockchains could adopt the ecocredit module in order to create their own markets or their own issuance systems and interoperate with Regen, right? Um Could it also serve as a um with just like minor tweaking for other tokenization purposes for the Cosmos ecosystem? Yeah, absolutely. It's essentially a a system for token

issuance on a Cosmos-based blockchain, right? But note, it isn't natively IBC compatible. We would need to do work. Uh it's totally doable, but we'd need to invest work in in making those eco credits natively IBC sort of um compliant, um which there's a couple of different technical solutions for that. But at the moment, the easiest technical solution is the basket module, which actually just like turns them from non-fungible eco credits that have the func you know, sort of functionality suite on Regen Ledger into IBC tokens that can then just move, right? They can just move, they get minted, they can move anywhere. They need to come back

home to have the full functionality for retirement and other uses. Um okay. So, that's the eco credit module. The the data module is probably more useful and abstractable for more projects. The data module is a really Yeah, it's kind of like a notarization module, right? Where you can you can create attestations, those attestations are registered on chain, and like I can see like all sorts of use cases for that yeah. Yeah, and it's really I think elegantly designed. A lot of thought went into the data module by Aaron and the team.

And yeah, so it allows you to uh anchor data, it allows you to sign data, and it allows you to put data on chain. Right? And and those are the three major actions of the data module. Um And what it does is it helps create, in our case, a graph of ecological data. So, anchoring is when you're saying, "Okay, there's an off-chain data storage like IPFS or something, and we're anchoring you know, this eco credit to that data, which is like the the the source data from the claim for instance. You may not that could be pretty weighty. That could include, you know, big satellite analysis files. It could be gigabytes.

You don't necessarily want to throw that all up on the blockchain. There are other things that the results of of analysis for instance that you may want to put directly on the blockchain. So the data module allows you to put data directly on chain. Okay, and then it also allows people to sign you know, both sign for data. Um so you can create auditing functions. So you can have sort of like known auditing in entities. It exactly. They're like notarizing, you know, like hey, we checked this out the data that's there checks out. So we're putting our reputation on. So that's going to start to play Yeah, here you're really creating like traceability traceability uh audit trails. Uh you have the ability to um have uh third parties come and sign

that data create being attestations and so on. Like I mean this is like the age-old use case of using blockchains for uh like kind of like uh supply chain traceability or data supply chain data supply chain uh traceability, right? Exactly. And and in our case, this is all about replicability of scientific claims about ecological state. Right? But that can be abstracted as you're saying to you like you could notarize anything. You could this could be useful for, you know, NFTs because you're sort of like anchoring data that's associated with a could be useful for, you know, um verifiable credentialing. All sorts of things and and this is like as an abstract module, I think it's highly re-purposeable and really useful.

There's there's a sort of this is data module 1.0. We have sort of plans to continue to evolve it. Um it's also following, you know, web web three C3 semantic web data standards. So it it's enabling a really rich semantic approach to data, which I think is we I mean we're biased, but we think this is probably both the simplest and the the most elegant solution to on and off-chain data storage and graphs that we've seen and we, you know, spent a long time thinking and innovating and whatnot and, you know, it's quite simple, but it's also super powerful.

Yeah, no, it's cool. Um yeah, go ahead, Brian. You you talked a little bit about, you know, Region 4.0, right? And then uh but I'd love if you could go into a little bit more detail on, you know, like what what lies ahead? Like what are you think the, you know, the biggest challenges ahead, the biggest milestones, and, you know, kind of improvement that, you know, are coming? Yeah, so Region 4.0 is going to be big. So, it it includes a marketplace functionality.

It includes, you know, obviously we have the eco-credit module, we have the basket module. Those are both live and being used but by a CLI at the moment. There'll be interfaces for marketplace, eco-credits basket. Um the data module will be going live. So, that enables us to start to build uh to start to serve our existing community of essentially eco-oracles or people who are making attestations about ecological state. We call these folks verifiers by and large, methodology developers. So, these are really big, you know, like this is like the minimum viable expression, exciting, you know, there's interfaces for all of this and a lot of

work that's been happening off-chain or on testnets is about to go live to the mainnet, so it's it's like a big coming out party. Region Ledger 5.0 is still, you know, flexible scope. We don't like to commit to things beyond what we, you know, Region Ledger 4.0 is basically done and in testing right now. So, it's like we're tracking towards our our launch and so we're solid about those features. We know what those are. Region Ledger 5.0, both there's community process around what people what features are being requested. So, that's important to understand. Then there's our own sort of like commitments that we've made in the white paper that we're trying to ship. Um Region Ledger 5.0, you know, if we were to think sort of like or let's say the next next major version upgrade of Region Ledger Region

Ledger and like the features that Region Network is wanting to bring, you know, I think um there's going to be a bunch of governance upgrade work where we're bringing um asset governance curation and standards on chain so that we're essentially creating DAOs around every eco credit class. So, Carbon Plus Grasslands is going to have its own governance body and issuance rules that are on chain and transparent and nested into the larger Region Ledger governance system. Um etc. So, there's going to be a There's 40 Currently, there's 40 different projects developing eco credits. That represents more than 13 million hectares

of land that's going to be in active regeneration and issuing eco credits. It's super exciting. There's also, you know, work being done with the marine reserve of the um in Costa Rica, the Cocos Island Marine Reserve, which is a national marine reserve. There's small holder agroforestry. There's just like this enormous amount of innovation and cool stuff happening in the community. So, data module is going to enable a lot of that and then and then the upgrades to the gov module, you know, authz, there's this triumvirate of gov, authz, and groups modules that Region uh network development engineering team has been working on for the whole Cosmos ecosystem, but also is going to be bri- being brought to bear for sort of asset

issuance governance right on region ledger and the integration of that into the market stack. So, that's coming online. Um a lot of that's going to be available on region ledger for some of it's coming just afterwards because uh of the lag between uh the 046 upgrade to the Cosmos SDK um and our own upgrade process which we don't want to hold up. Um So, there's some exciting things happening in governance and that governance stuff is also going to be available for the full Cosmos ecosystem. So, stay tuned for an explosion in gov usability, gov- governance usability in the Cosmos ecosystem. It's long needed. It's it's uh it's really important and and we have our specific

use case for that. Um I was recently just doing a whole sort of Twitter Spaces about that actually folks want to listen, you know, jamming with some of the validators and whatnot about these features that are coming online and how they're going to both be useful for our use case but also the broader Cosmos ecosystem. So, that's a key and then another really exciting thing that's coming online is region uh is innovating a Cosmos SDK order book decks. So, um there's a number of different reasons we we would like to not just have AMM style um exchange. Uh a lot of that has to do with you know, we're trying to create this sort of seamless um ecological asset origination system.

So, we want people to be able to mint those assets and then and then you know, put a sell order in, you know, at and and fix a sell order price without having to match liquidity or just sell it and bring the price down, right? Which you know, that doesn't really make a lot of sense. So, one of the great things about the Cosmos SDK and sort of a Cosmos approach is we have quite muscular compute. Region ledger is quite a muscular state machine. So, we can actually do pretty complex order book and have a complex matching engine which enables people to sort of like create, you know, sell orders and buy orders and have a matching engine that then can integrate, and this is where things are going to start to get fun, integrate through CosmWasm with Osmosis and other

DEXs so we both can access AMM liquidity, but also people can just list buy and sell orders to get access to these ecological commodities. So, that's one of the next big upgrades that's being worked on now and is going to come in the coming months. That's amazing. What's the timeline on this DEX? The eco DEX, yeah. Well, it's a good question. We had been focused on that for Regen Ledger 5.0.

I think, you know, we want to prioritize some of the governance work first. So, either it's going to come out with Regen Ledger 5.0 depending on sort of, you know, engineering pieces like how well does it how quickly do we march through things and resource things. Um, yeah. So, I'm going to say I would I would, you know, at my engineering team's going to hate me for doing this, but I would say I feel about 90% confidence that the that the eco DEX that the orderbook DEX system will be live by before mid-September.

Right? So, All right, you heard it here. Yeah, 90% confidence that that's it for this. There's another big feature that's coming online that we're working on that I almost forgot in my excitement about the DEX which is huge. And and this is where there's like just transparently there's like conflicting priorities like what do we put our engineering resource scarce engineering resources? What's demanded? What do we prioritize? The other thing that's being talked about and asked for by the community is what we're calling the offsetting module. And Brian, that's what you were mentioning where you have a model that generates estimation for instance for a validator or for a whole network that generates sort of an attestation you you know, on

the on chain that then people can sort of claim and then offset and get a digital offset certificate. And so that functionality and automated carbon offsetting in the system is also something that we've scoped and have done some preliminary engineering work on and is in demand. And so like priorities here, right? So at the beginning region ledger 4.0 is a simple marketplace in which you can't put there's not a matching engine and you can't do like complex buy and sell orders etc. Right? But just like a simple like almost like NFT marketplace where you just put it up, you set a price. Boom.

So the question is are we going to move first with this offsetting module which is in demand and people want or are we going to go with the order book decks? And you know, I I'd love feedback if community members are are you know, have strongly opinionated about which of those makes the most sense. You can kind of only do one at the same time. But we have engineering resources to do both just not at the same time. So there'll be you know, um And that's kind of why I put the order book decks. Actually I you know, I put the order book decks in September. I think we can ship the the offset module before that and still get to the order book system because there is you know, some scoping and you know, there is momentum on this stuff. It's not just

sort of like uh conceptual. You know, there's like sort of engineering scoping use case and movement on on these things. Well, I can't wait to see people like aping into these assets and you know, like going full degen on on the region order book decks. It's going to be epic. Um, Greg, thanks so much for coming on. It's been a real pleasure and uh yeah, it was like way way way overdue and I feel like now I I fully understand the whole scope of what you guys are doing and uh yeah, well, you know, we we didn't get to talk about everything. I I I I wish we could have went deeper into some some of the technical things here. Maybe that's a conversation for the Inner Op. Um, maybe you can come on uh on my other

podcast which for those of you listening uh who don't know about the Inner Op, it's uh a podcast that I launched recently uh that dives deeper into some of the technical aspects of the Cosmos ecosystem. So, you we can have a conversation there. And also the fund that you guys are launching um you know, uh maybe we we can also do a follow-up uh to talk about the the Regen ecosystem fund which I think is launching soon. So, yeah, thanks thanks again and um we'll we'll talk again soon. Definitely, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for going on the ride uh ride with me. Uh I always laugh. People are like, "Give me a Regen network elevator pitch." and I always inevitably I'm like, "You're going to have to take the stairs. Sorry. There's no easy way."

Send them a link to this. All right, man. Thanks a lot. absolutely. It was such a pleasure having you on. I'm super excited. I think there's like, you know, so much finally like, you know, coming about. So, I think the next next year is going to be very cool for the Regen network and then I'm sure at some point we should have you back on and can like dive into some of the you know, actual developments happening. Wow, Sebastian. Wow. Yeah, I got to hold this I forgot I forgot to take off my sweater, but Okay, now now I have to show my Regen network tattoo on my back, right?

Nice. Yeah. Regen makes some of the best most comfortable blockchain t-shirts by the way. Yeah. All organic. Yeah, love those are those are some nice uh we didn't skimp on the on the t-shirts. Um yeah, it's I'd I'd I'd love to follow up on the conversation. I would also recommend may on Interop, maybe also on Epicenter, get Aaron on to talk Cosmos SDK. Super under appreciated, underrated core part of like what is making Cosmos what it is today and um, you know, he I I know he'd hop on if you invited him and um, Totally.

he's really been pulling the doing the heavy lifting on making sure that the Cosmos SDK serves the whole community and you know, and the needs of of Regen Network. So. Yeah, that could be interesting, totally. Yeah. All right. Thanks so much, Gregory. Thanks, you guys. Cheers. All right.