Government shutdown, the US debt spiral and why Bitcoin lags: Trajan King

Transcript

Either way, I think is it's a good thing for Bitcoin because if the government is able to cut costs then and get things in line, that's good for the economy and the economy goes up and our portfolios go up. But if they're not able to cut spending after Doge, they said, "Okay, we're going to back off of Doge because everybody hates it." They said, "Okay, we're going to focus on growth instead." >> So, we're going to go the opposite way. >> Exactly. We're going to go the opposite way. We're going to forget about expenses. >> We're going to spend more. We're going to grow our way out of it. >> Exactly. The only way to do it is grow our way out of it, which of course means money printing. So, as a Bitcoin holder, that that says to me either road we take will be good for Bitcoin. I mean, it

might lead to the collapse of the country, but Bitcoin will be doing okay. >> GM, good morning. Welcome to the Milk Road Show, the daily crypto show where financial freedom is just one bull market away, allegedly. I'm your host, Jay Hamilton. It's Wednesday, October the 1st. The US government shut down for the first time in nearly seven years. What does this mean for markets and your portfolio? Despite all the institutional adoption talk, Bitcoin hasn't really kept pace with traditional assets this year. Today's guest is going to break down the macro forces behind this underperformance in comparison to gold.

And also, is the Fed's monetary policy the real driver of all asset classes? Or are crypto investors overthinking the macro narrative? We're going to dive deep into what really moves markets. Today's guest is Tjan King. He's a former CEO, COO, CFO, currently CFO of Zillix.com. He's worked in Silicon Valley. He's worked on Wall Street. He's worked with some of the largest tech companies in the world, negotiating multi-million dollar contracts and leading major financial products. Before we jump in, if you wanted to know what was happening with the US government shutdown before this episode came out earlier today, the Milk Road Macro team released a newsletter all about their takes on the US government shutdown, what it means

for you. Is it a risk to your portfolio or not? So, if you haven't read that newsletter, highly recommend you do. It's free. Click the link in the show notes to sign up today. Today's episode is brought to you by Nexo, the platform that grows your capital without locking it away. It's also brought to you by Figure Markets. Grow your cash like a bank. No lockups, just real returns. With that, Tjan, welcome to the Milk Road Show. >> Great intro. Thanks for having me. And uh I need to go read that newsletter about the government shutdown. It's been an exciting day already. >> It's funny to say that the government shutdown is an exciting day, but it is.

It certainly does. >> Yeah, certainly does create create a lot of uh a lot of news and a lot of people wondering a lot of people wondering what's going on from the markets perspective. Let's let's actually let's start there. Can back up for a second. Um what what happened with the government shutdown? Can you can you quickly give us a little bit of the context and then we can talk about what the impact might be? >> Okay. So, like you said, the last government shutdown was in 2018, lasted 34 days, which was the longest government shutdown that that we've had out of out of 12. And the the the government the last few years has been

renewing the budget every year and it ran out last night at midnight and the government, the Republicans and the Democrat Democrats weren't able to come to a consensus about renewing the budget. So by default um everything froze and by everything it means non-essential services like you know of course social security and and Medicare and uh emergency response and all of that about 70% of the government is actually still funded and functioning but it's the 30% that is currently on hold or or not renewed until the Democrats and Republicans can come to a come to a consensus. And um whether that will happen soon or not, we don't know.

Poly market has has the odds that it's going to last 8 days. It looks like the Democrats and Republicans both have their reasons for making it go go longer. We'll see which one which one caves. On the Republican side, uh the Republicans uh are able to uh lay off and not pay permanently, get rid of a lot of government employees, which is a uh one of their main things that they've been talking about for years, trying to reduce the size of government. We saw with Doge, they tried to do that earlier this year with mixed mixed success, I think.

>> And then and then the Democrats, they want to give uh give health care to everybody. Um, and there are a lot of different sticking points about what that means and who that who that covers and whether or not it should it should cover people. So, we'll see which one which one case first to if they're going to come to an agreement or not. Um, a Kobesci letter had some interesting stats that they released that last night about the length of the shutdown, which I think is pertinent to cover here about what it might do to the market. I'm actually surprised the market is up as much as much it as it is at the time of us recording this. Bitcoin is up 3% and Salana is up 5 and a half% and Ethereum is up almost 5%. So, u I don't know what

the what the other markets are doing, but it's a it's a it's a bit of a bit of a surprise. We can talk about what that might might mean. Okay. So, uh so the average length of the shutdown is is eight days. Um, and the S&P 500 has ended the year higher after a shutdown 86% of the time. And we're already we're already seeing that in the first few hours. And the S&P posts an average gain of 13% the year after a shutdown. So long-term shutdowns have by and large almost completely been been beneficial, especially if you are a Republican seeing the opportunity to cut costs. Um with the US federal debt going over $ 37 trillion and adding adding a couple of

trillion a year now um that's one of the reasons why our bonds have become a lot less less preferable and why the government has actually had a hard time selling the bonds and foreign foreign nations like China and Japan and others are buying fewer and fewer bonds. They're offloading the bonds and buying gold which I think we're going to get to gold uh gold pretty soon. So some see this shutdown as a good way to actually cut the cut the size of the government. And so in 2018 during the shutdown the S&P rallied 11%.

And so while the government is shut down the US defers $400 million a day in cost. A lot of that is labor cost. So if the government stays shut down for uh for less than 60 days, say the government say the shutdown lasts eight days like it does on average. After those eight days, all of the government employees that were on pause, they get all of their their back pay. But if it lasts more than 60 days, 61 days, then um the president is able to lay off permanently all of those people and and and uh not have to pay them. So there's some incentive for >> for the Republicans to drag this out to last 60 days so they can reduce the size

of government, which they've they've always wanted to be. You probably followed the Doge uh the Doge efforts of reducing size of government. And that was uh kind of a failure, some success, but mostly what it said to me as an investor, it said to me that the government, whether Democrats or Republicans are in charge, will never be able to stop spending. >> And as a Bitcoiner, that says to me like long-term trend is >> Yeah. is money printing from here till till the government collapses. So, so either way, either way I think is it's a good thing for Bitcoin because if the government is able to cut costs then and get things in line, that's good for the

economy and the economy goes up and our portfolios go up. But if they're not able to cut spending, which they pretty much um >> they can't they can't after Doge, they said, "Okay, we're going to back off of Doge because everybody hates it." uh especially the Democrats, but some Republicans like it wasn't very popular even though it was trying to cut cut waste, fraud, and abuse. Um it was very controversial. Um they said, "Okay, we're going to focus on growth instead. >> We're going to go the opposite way." >> Exactly. We're going to go the opposite way. We're going to forget about expenses.

>> We're going to spend more. We're going to grow our way out of it. >> Exactly. We're the only way to do it is grow our way out of it, which of course means money printing. >> Here we are again. >> So here we are. We're back to the same. So, so as a Bitcoin holder that that says to me either road we take will be good for Bitcoin. I mean it might lead to the collapse of the country but Bitcoin will be doing okay. The the thing that stands out to me uh about the government shutdown right now is to to me I think when I look at all of this and and the Milkro team had sort of a similar take in their newsletter is that it's a lot of noise right now. It is going to be all over the media. It's

all anyone talks about. But when you zoom out and you look at past shutdowns, historically the market actually often welcomes shutdowns. >> Bitcoin and gold a little bit more unclear. Sometimes they react differently. But the S&P 500, as you said show here in all these stats, has historically performed very well. But right now, what is so I my my general take on this shutdown is that it's going to be a nothing burger and we're going to be sitting here a month from now and nothing will have changed. But what is interesting is the timing of this shutdown relative some to some economic data that will impact the next FOMC meeting and their decisions because if if this government shutdown persists then we don't get economic data and the

Fed uses that economic data to make their decisions in their FOMC meetings and we're all watching that next I think Poly Market has the odds of the of a rate cut coming at the next FOMC meeting at I think it's like 80% or something in that range is pretty high. And so what happens if this government shutdown persists and we don't get economic data? Does that impact their ability to make decisions on rate cuts? That's the one thing that I could see having an effect out of this. But I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. >> Yeah, from a from a market reaction perspective, I I think that the market is becoming less and less trustful of the of the of the government data. So the fact that it's not available may

actually be a good thing and not necessarily a bad thing because nobody believes it anymore. We just saw in the last few weeks that the government revises downward the jobs projections by nearly a nearly a million jobs which is quite a lot. And so I think a lot of people >> it happens and their hands said well what >> what are we doing here? Your data is junk. >> Yeah. and and that's and that's that's been happening for years. It it's not like this is a new thing since Trump came into office. This was happening when the Dems were in office, too. So it's again it all comes back to sort of this general point that you keep making which is which is maybe a nice tie into the conversation around Bitcoin and gold

but which is that there is there's nothing that seems to change regardless of who the administration is towards the attitude around how the US is going to economically make make their economy grow. It is just a continue. We're going to continue to spend because we cannot we we have no way no other way to deal with our debt. And so the >> even if Doge had been wildly successful, it would have been a drop in the bucket because most of the government spending is entitlements. It's it's social security, Medicare, Medicaid, and then defense. And then of course now, thanks to all of our spending, it's uh interest on the debt. So, we can cut we can cut

things and we can cut programs and and foreign aid and things like that and and medical research and and all the boondoggles the government does and it's a drop in the bucket. It's not going to make a difference. Um, we have painted ourselves into a corner where we have so much debt and it's not just the United States, although we're the a quarter of the global economy. It's most countries are drowning in debt. The average debt per person in the world now this data just came out this morning $43,000 per person. >> Per person is the average. >> Whoa.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Which is wild considering that a lot of countries their daily their like their annual income is a couple of thousand dollars. So the global debt and I don't remember what it is in the United States just US debt per person is like a quarter of a million dollars uh per person. So the US is in big trouble. There are countries that are in bigger trouble, but the the the world is in trouble and personal consumers are in trouble because credit card debt is at an all-time high. Student loan debt all-time high. Uh auto debt all-time high. The housing market is not in a great is is not in great shape. So I don't want to be pessimistic about everything but the debt is a is a serious problem

>> um globally from a cor a corporate standpoint, government standpoint and personal standpoint because rates were held at zero for so long for for basically 20 years. It gave everybody permission to go out and and borrow everything. And now the uh >> and now that the tab has come and it's time to pay and we've got some serious choices to make. We either raise taxes, we cut spending, or we print. So, uh, cutting spending, we tried that. That's not going to work. We can only raise taxes so much because we're at the upper end of the LER curve already.

>> Um, and I don't know if Americans are going to >> Who who wants more taxes, right? That's the hardest hardest political move for anyone to make. So, it's >> And no, neither party wants to cut entitlements. That's >> that's a >> that's a big no no. Yeah, you're out. >> You're never gonna get elected. So, the only way out is is either growing with with AI and robotics, which of course is is happening. >> It's happening. >> Uh or and or uh you just keep printing, which is also happening.

>> The M2 money supply is going is is up and to the right. Um it's just going more and more growing. slowed down a little bit last few months, but the the global money supply and the US money supply is just up and to the right the whole way. And uh the that's a big reason why gold is doing so well is because the economies the economy is is different than the debt. But the debt is going up so quickly that investors one they're not trusting they're not buying bonds.

>> The government is having a hard time buying bonds. In fact, the last bond sale, the the Treasury had to buy the bond, most of the bonds or some of the bonds. We didn't we didn't sell all of them. And this is happening more and more. Foreign companies don't want want the bonds. So, investors are moving more toward gold, buying gold. Add on top of that the BRICS countries that are rumored to be coming out with a goldbacked currency to rival the rival the dollar hedgeimony. So, China is buying fewer treasuries. They used to be a big buy buyer of treasuries. They are buying less and less every year the last 10 years. Um, and we used to talk about China owning the US. They're not really interested anymore because our debt is

is is terrible. >> And so they're buying they're buying most of the gold right now, which is why gold just it hits high after high every week. >> Yeah. >> Um, and it it continues to go higher. A lot of analysts are are calling for uh for crazy prices for gold. So, so M2 money supply is is uh is going up and up. Gold is going up and up. The stock market is going up up and up. Uh but Bitcoin is uh is going up less.

>> Is going up less. Okay, let's talk about that. >> Let's show a chart if I can share my screen here about that. So, here you can see if gold kept pace with the money supply, it would be the red line. And if it kept kept uh pace with M2 in 2011, it would be up there. So you can see even gold is lagging the lagging uh lagging M2. So So why is Bitcoin lagging everything? Everything is hitting a new new all-time high. Gold, the stock market, the the NASDAQ, the uh uh the M2 money supply, everything is hitting an al all-time high at the same time when when rates are are high.

>> So what's going to happen in Q4? Q4 is is historically the the the the quarter of the year where where crypto does the best. And I've got a >> let me see which I've got so many charts here. You can see here. Oh, this is gold. US gold reserves are at $1 trillion for the first time in history. So even the US is buying is buying gold. >> Buying gold. >> Everybody's buying gold. Why are they buying gold? It's because of the debt. >> Yeah. Safe pay is an asset. Nobody trusts bonds anymore and everybody wants to get out of bonds. And so there's a real there is a a a shift happening in the global financial regime happening

right in front of us and we're all seeing it and there's you know Ray Dallio has been talking about it for years and it's but but it comes back to this question of why is Bitcoin lagging? >> What's your thesis? I'll tell you mine. >> My thesis is that it's lagging because it always lags. It always lags a few months. So, this is this is this is a typical pattern and it will catch up. >> Yeah, I I 100% agree. I've seen data that has shown that uh it lags historically by 100 days. So, if you just put a chart of gold on top, you go to Trading View, put a chart of gold and a chart of uh uh of gold on top of each other, you'll see that and move them over a 100 days, they're very very correlated.

>> Yeah. So, um I >> which would say that in Q4, Bitcoin's going to do very well. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it should. In fact, since the end of I'm looking at my trading view here, since the end of August, Bitcoin uh or uh Bitcoin priced in gold has been going down. So, I think that will start to turn up now that we're in in Q4. And as the further rate cuts rate cuts happen, maybe the uh maybe the government shutdown will help. But Q4 is historically the the strongest of uh of all the quarters. Um let me just look up a look up a chart here. So I've got uh Q4 average returns from 2013

to 2024 are 85 and a half%. And of course, Bitcoin was different almost 10 years ago. So, I don't think we're going to see 85 85% in Q4. >> Yeah, 85%. What would that put us at? That would put us at about uh 200,000. Maybe just below 200,000. >> Um, but if you look at just the last uh the last few years, it's been about 40% which is pretty great. >> Um, but compared to Q3, the average from 2013 to 2024 is 5%. >> So, that's a big difference.

>> Yeah. And I think that that is the that is the the the the thing that investors need to remember right now is patience is so important as an investor and I know you preach this a lot uh in your newsletter and uh and in everything that you've you produce as an investor is so easy to get caught up especially for uh investors in crypto where it is a fast it's a very volatile market and market psychology and I want to talk later in episode about market psychology as well can come really into play. But these are those moments where it's very easy to um make quick decisions because you are impatient and you're not seeing what you

want to see and you're not seeing the gains and everything is still on track for a great end of the year and for Bitcoin and cryp if I think I think everyone needs to remember is like um a lot of our listeners are are going to hold Bitcoin but they're going to hold other crypto assets as well and we need first Bitcoin to do well and then we need Ethereum to do well and then everything else follows. And so everybody whe whether you're in Bitcoin, Ethereum or maybe you're down the stack, everybody should be rooting for all of them to do well because that is the way that the whole asset class increases and grows and so we need that. But it feels very much like everything you're saying with M2 money supply up with gold up that Bitcoin and Bitcoin typically

lagging that Bitcoin should have a great Q4 which should lead the rest of crypto to have a a good Q4 as well. Yeah, I agree with you about patience. I've heard or seen a lot of people on online disappoint a lot Bitcoiners disappointed that we haven't gone up even though we're up I think 75% in the last 12. I >> was going to say like is that is that enough? >> Yeah. I I I think the last you know the last couple bull runs we've been a little bit spoiled coming from the traditional world. I started my career in uh in in the mid 90s and I was a a financial planner and if you got 12% then that was an awesome awesome year.

If you got 12% in equities which is the average you're having a great year and then Bitcoin came around came around came around and it melted everybody's brains who was in Bitcoin. We've seen some phenomenal returns >> from Bitcoin and other asset classes and I think it's warped us a little bit to expect expect but even now you know the projected CAG of Bitcoin is like I don't know 50% or 60% or whatever. >> Yes. Somewhere between it depends on who who you ask but it ranges from 40 to 60%. >> So those kind of expectations kind of warp our minds a little bit especially in the short term when you see big >> when you see big moves up and down. You go back to the You go back to an index fund and it's like holding cash almost

compared to >> Yeah. >> compared to Bitcoin. You're like, "Okay, this is this is pretty boring. I need to get back into the meme stocks where I can actually make some money." But the wealth the wealth is made the wealth is made in long-term holds >> in patience. Yeah. >> Holding holding patiently and dollar cost averaging into into solid assets. The best example I can think of is Warren Buffett. The reason why he's so wealthy is because he's almost 100 years old and he's been doing this since he was >> 70 years or something, >> right? Like he he wasn't that wealthy when he was when he was 60 and most of his wealth has come in the last couple of decades because he just >> kept going.

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rental properties. That's why I'm looking at Figure Markets. Their new democratized prime product backs your money with real cash flowing assets and returns up to 9% APY. It's the first real world asset borrow lend pool built for everyone, not just institutions. Ready to lend like a bank and get more than the 5% A is offering you? Download the Figure Markets app today and get 9% on your idol funds. Go to milkroad.comfigurearkets. Let's um let's go beyond this quarter. So, you're clearly bullish for Q4. You like the setup. You talked about the reasons why you like the setup. What are your thoughts when you take a step even further back and you

think about 2026 and market cycles uh seem to be as we said there seems to be a lot of models aren't working anymore. A lot of frameworks aren't working anymore. There's there's there's an incredible divide. There's the the bulls are allowed and the bears are allowed. H how do you frame the market right now when you look beyond this year? Um before we do that, I would just caveat Q4 with any there there could be black swan events that we need to be looking out for. You know, it could Okay, it could be uh Ukraine. Russia seems to be having some having some issues that could cause some problems with the incursions into NATO

>> or uh or Israel and Gaza, which there's some there was some hopeful news with a proposal that came out yesterday. So, we'll see about that. But uh and then of course there's a lot of turmoil happening in the US. Those three things could >> could derail everything. So we have to we have to look at that as I'm hopeful for for Q4 and 2026 and into 2027. I think there are a lot of great things happening but we've got kind of two worlds. We've got the the markets. There's a lot of great things happening with the rate cuts start starting a couple weeks ago and a lot of technology with AI and robotics and uh a lot of cool stuff is happening. A lot of of assets being tokenized uh with crypto and the government even

talking about putting some data on crypto. So, a lot of that is happening, but then at the same time, we keep hearing about World War II and Civil War. So, we kind of have to hold these two two ideas in our head at the same time. H how do you how do you plan for for blacks one events as an investor? It's a very difficult thing to plan for and manage. >> Uh I I yeah it is it is tough. I don't have the golden solution other than keeping perspective. Uh because a lot of this news comes out and uh the markets the markets tank one day and then the next week they're they're right back up. remember the the tariff the tariff issues in early early April and everybody was freaking out.

The market the market tanked and about uh 45 days later we were making all-time highs. So, I think one of the things is just trying to keep your wits about value and taking a perspective. And if you're investor having most of your portfolio in good, solid, long-term investments. If you're if you're perping or if you're in meme stocks or something, then then a big dive could really help you. So, you got to keep your leverage way low. um and your any leverage plays short-term and low and low leverage because anything could come and blow you up and a small percentage of your portfolio less than 2% of your portfolio should be any kind of leverage or per

>> and I would say less than 20% should be as you called it down the down the stack right most of your assets should be in the the top 10 cryptos or an index fund or or a major technology company because then something like that happens, you're it's okay because you know it's going to go back. >> It'll come back. Yeah. The things that you know will be here 10 years from now are the are the things that should be the majority of your portfolio unless you want to go be a trader which is just a completely different uh perspective on the way you manage your money. Uh but for most people investing is the way to go. Everybody who tries trading realizes pretty quickly that it's it's not it's not a good it's not a good choice in

career finance. very difficult and 95% of traders lose money >> which is why it should only be a small portion of your portfolio even if you are even if you are a full-time trader and most of what I learned as a financial planner is most of the things that lead to success are are consistency consistently dollar cost averaging into a good asset and taking a long-term view and not losing your mind when something happens. Mhm. >> There was a study that Fidelity did. They looked at which portfolios of people of their clients did the best and they found that is it was people that had died that just had their money on the platform. And they and they

concluded the reason that those dead accounts did so well is because they didn't trade. They didn't freak out. They didn't when something happened they didn't rush to sell the bottom because they're dead obviously, right? That is an incredible stat. That is incredible. >> Yeah, it's it's amazing. So, when when big news events happen, >> um most of the time the answer is to what should I do now is do nothing. >> Do nothing. >> Yeah. And that's okay. You don't have to be trying to time the market and trade and everything, especially if you're owning Bitcoin for the long run.

>> Most of the time it's just you just do nothing. >> Yeah. Yeah. and have have a solid uh financial setup that allows you and I know you talk a lot about financial independence that allows you to be comfortable in bare markets and in downturns because if you if we have a and we will have another bare market it is inevitable. Uh when that comes is definitely up for debate right now. I think there's some people, no I don't I have not talked to anybody who seems to think that the bull market is going to end this year anymore. Everybody is now believing it's going to extend it into 2026. Where I see a lot of variability

is some say Q1 26 will end. Some think it could even go into 2027. Really depending upon the election and rate cuts and what happens with the Fed. There's a lot of variables mainly on the macro side is where everyone is kind of wondering what happens and we'll have to wait and see. But when we do get a bare market or a pullback, which if if the if the bull market did extend into late 2026 or 2027, I can guarantee you we would see some large pullbacks along the way there. And like I'm talking like Bitcoin 30% type pullbacks, right? And those type of pullbacks can if you are affected by those pullbacks and you start to think oh gosh like I can't I I need money dayto-day to survive then you

should re redo your allocation of your finances and how much is in saving and how much is in cash because you need to have that fortitude to withstand those pullbacks. >> Yeah 100%. And financial planners will tell you to do the three bucket strategy which is short-term money, medium-term money and long-term money. So, your short-term money is money you're going to need in the next six months, which is mostly cash. >> Have some some money in some cash or liquid investments. So, if the market does go down, you don't have to sell anything. You don't have to touch your Bitcoin. And then your medium-term money is money that you might need in the next few years. And then long-term money is three years and be through beyond.

that's your your core stack of of Bitcoin or whatever your core holdings are that you don't plan on touching for 10 years. So, if you have those three different buckets, then if the market does does tank, you don't have to worry about your medium and long-term money because it can go down. It can lose 30% of its value and you can take some of that cash and and buy the dip, right? You don't have to >> That's right. That's why you always need some dry powder on the side to be able to buy. >> That's right. Because yeah, those black swans, you never know when something's going to come out of the blue.

>> And it might not be 30%, but it could be 5 10%. >> And you don't want to have be caught off guard off sides and have to sell something and and miss out on that opportunity to actually buy. >> So, uh, last question before we wrap here. What is your thesis for 2026 and beyond and for this market cycle? And any thoughts on any price predictions on Bitcoin? I know price predictions are a bit of a uh throw a finger in the wind type of thing, but it's always fun to ask. Uh yeah, so I'm I'm planning through 2030 and I think the biggest trends through 20 2030 are going to be on the crypto side uh is Bitcoin

obviously and then u and then Salana I think is uh and a lot of people love or hate Salana. So uh I I think a lot a lot of the volume is on Salana. A lot of real world assets are going on in Salana. So I think that's something to watch. And then on the on the the stock side is is robotics and AI um embodied AI humanoid robotics. I think that is going to be going to be huge. The only uh US public company that where you can buy into that right now is is Tesla on the on the humanoid robotics and then a lot of course a lot of AI plays u and that's changing all the time. I think those trends are going to be mostly what I'm watching through 2030

is the is the M2 money printing and which relates to to Bitcoin. A lot of things going on to onto the blockchain which is which is mostly happening on Salana right now and that could be different next year. So you got to watch it because that the everybody's vying for that spot. Um, and then humanoid robotics and an AI, which of course is driving the whole the whole equities market right now. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love I love all those uh all those investments. Those are all very much in line with uh with our thoughts and our beliefs as well. And I think uh I think if you if you if that's where you're positioning, I think you're really well set up for the next 2030 and and even beyond there they are. It is

clear that Bitcoin is here to stay. It is clear that Salana is here to stay and will play a role in the future of finance and the future of public or of public blockchains. Uh and Ethereum as well. I think you know there's there's a lot of benefit to be invested in both of those. Um Tjan, absolute pleasure to get you on the show today. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me Jay. Happy to come back anytime. This has been a lot of fun. >> Thanks for listening in everybody. I've got to remind you as always, none of today's episodes financial advice. This ed this episode is for educational information purposes only. Appreciate you listening in. And if you want to learn more about the market, the government shutdown, go check out the Milkro Macro newsletter. Link is in the show notes. Uh tomorrow we're going to

be back with Nick Dukov, the head of institutional growth at Salana. It's where we'll dive deeper into Salana and what they are doing on the institutional side. Have a wicked awesome day. Thanks again, folks. We'll see you back tomorrow. We're sending Kyle Reedhead, our head of research, to the UK's largest web 3 summit. I'm talking about Zebu Live happening October 21st and 22nd in London. Want to join? Use our code milk to get 20% off your tickets. Hit the link in the show notes and say hi to Kyle for us. As always, if you liked today's episode, please hit subscribe and make sure you follow us so you don't miss out on the next one.

There's also a link in the description to our free 5-minute daily newsletter where we simplify crypto for you while making you laugh. And if you're willing to step up your crypto investing game, we're going to also leave a link for Milk Road Pro. You get access to our portfolio where you can see exactly what we are buying. This is your number one resource to help you invest successfully in crypto. One final note, this show is for educational purposes only and nothing we say is financial advice. Investing in crypto or any asset is risky and you should never invest more than you can afford to lose. Thanks so much for listening in my friends.