Gil Binder & Yair Cleper: Lava Network – Decentralising RPC and Node Providers. Ep. 536

Transcript

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one welcome to epicenter of the show which talks about the Technologies projects and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution I'm sebest Eno and I'm here with Brian crane today we're speaking with Gil binder and yer klepper co-founders and respectively CTO and CEO at lava Network lava is an Innovative project that aims to decentralize data provisioning for blockchains I like to call it Uber for blockchain data and so we're going to be diving deep into today and understanding how it works the different participants of the network and what it means for decentralized application development hey guys thanks

for joining hey how are you super exciting to be here I'm trying to think when was my last podcast with Gil H I can't I can't remember pleasure to be here great to be here guys cool yeah thanks so much for joining us can you guys uh just walk us through like what is the high level vision of lava what is the problem that you're trying to solve yeah definitely I think uh you know every great solution that started in the world in the world in general especially in blockchain had some Theses behind that and we jumped into uh into lava about two and a half years ago almost three years he was uh developing

MV nft uh sliping and you know he dragged me in to jump into the rabbit Pole and we explor the the the Gap that there is about the RPC service that basically was rubbish and super unreliable so we thought that you know the most of the web 3 is the call data that at the end of the day there are a few infrastructure providers there so um this is how lava began it began exactly how said mentioned before as the Uber for no so building a resilient scalable and decentralized RPC Network that every developer can can plug into and get service today you can get this service from more under the 300 providers and

it's super reliable and super scalable but that was two years ago and we see that there was maybe a handful of different chains back then um and since then the web 3 evolved you know we we've seen many different shaping events kind of the you know the the Luna crush and today we have Bitcoin ETFs we didn't think about that two years ago so it mean it meant to us that the the problems that back then developer has um today they are much more bigger it's not only in the largest scale but today they spread across of hundreds of different blockchains so obviously the key

Innovation here H that enabled that is what we call uh the modular blockchain and modular blockchains were very interesting to me back then two years ago ago I think uh Mustafa mentioned that in his white paper lazy Ledger it called it plugable maybe a less sexy name but uh today everyone talk about modularity right chain obstruction and obviously the main thesis for now is building hundreds and thousands of blockchain and this is what modularity will create over the very near future and we've seen that there are three main layers for modular blockchain we have the ex execution layer you have the data availability and consensus

layer and you have the settlement layer but as we see more and more blockchain um while Celestia for example made it 100x time easier to um uh roll up one um we've think that there is a convergence in which every every rollup every L1 every layer that's going to come up every blockchain that going to come up will need and this is is the data access layer it started with RPC and indexing um you know if for those here who doesn't know what's RPC Bas basically communication protocol in order to query data every time you open the metamask wallet H making a

transaction basically it's the RPC request um if you check the account balance so metamask is quaring the blockchain for that um and today in order to scale apps over blockchain they need to get access to data right but what's the point what's the point of storing the yeah just jumping in a little bit I'm curious like so there's a lot of like different things one could do in crypto right a lot of different business models use cases like what was it about this particular problem that you know you found so exciting like why why built this why not something else it's really a great question you know when we when I started uh in web 3 we were like doing MV stuff you know

running Bots to snipe tokens and to snipe nfts and some other really cool stuff and it was a huge struggle to just have the Gnomes right so if you were trying back then to get the data to run all these operations you needed to uh either use like centralized providers like INF fural Alchemy which sometimes were just very slow there just not fast enough for this type of operation but you also weren't sure that the data is up to date like that getting the latest block and this is you know what makes or breaks a trade it's super critical for uh for the bot to have the latest data so we start with that so I was running some BS you know I was running some notes Here uh next to me at some machines running some notes and then I

wanted to do the same thing on polygon right so I was like okay now I need to run heimel and you know I need to run War I need to run more and more nodes and then I want to do it on Avalanche you know and it just became such a struggle and I realized you know this is not scalable there's no way that I can keep you know writing and running all this Services myself in a way that's scalable and performance and I think this is I think this is one of the core problems in web 3 if you take it out into the bigger picture in which is just fragmentation every single blockchain every rollup they have their own Concepts they have their own data uh

access and this creat this huge uh user experience uh problem for everybody if it's like let's say you want to trade on on a wallet you know you're getting an airdrop from somebody you have to get another wallet another wallet you have to figure out what gas token is being used and I think this connects to their longer Vision you know yes you have Celestia you have Dimension and then I think one of the key unlocks is heavy lava on top of that and then making everything uh connect all of those chains they need access to the data they they're useless without it all these rollups on IG layer on on ethereum and this is what we do right we're building

this permissionless network that lets anyone join give service to any of these blockchains in a very easy way uh so I I think the longterm vision is like making all web three like a one a one or two or three but top free like super usable experiences with RPC I mean today right like you described I think the problem well right like okay you want to do something on one chain and then you need this node and now another chain you need another node and of course this yeah like a lot of uh projects applications are struggling with this and uh and so they like how like pre lava right if you

ignore lava like how are people um or I mean my understanding is right they mostly use centralized providers like you know Alchemy quick nodes um chain stack maybe in fura things like that how would you rate the quality of those products like what is the what's sort of the weaknesses and problems with the centralized RPC providers so I think some of them provide amazing service you know I think they optimized the service very well for example Alchemy on on ethereum is really good you know quick node is really good service INF fur is a pretty decent Service as well so I think that there are tradeoffs uh to be to talk about but

if you look at the numbers of supported chains they're very small because it's very hard to optimize for many many chains and you might be a champion or like provide the best infrastructure for a single chain and like write your own layer of caching and optimizations to make very make it very cost efficient and fast but to scale it up to many chains and this comes back to the core issue you need to be uh an expert in that specific chain and this is where lava is different first it's not just one provider it can be in fura quick node and Alchemy all competing it's like a death match like imagine like all the Bots are fighting who's giving the best service and in the end you have like the

few Champions are getting the belts and this is what lava is like it's a competition between the providers to give the best service so in every single chain you have this competition and whoever comes up with the brightest uh you know most unique most novel uh way to optimize wins uh and that translates to really good user experience for the user and the most rewards for that provider so it kind of makes sense okay yeah thanks so much Gil that was very helpful so basically is you feel like one of the main value propositions is that the centralized RPC providers they can only cover sort of a limited amount of networks and they're

going to have a hard time scaling that up and maybe especially if you see like a big increase in the number of chains and then with lava you can have a sort of uniform uh like developer experience uniform way to integrate rpcs across you know like all the different chains and because then you can have different providers basically sort of together providing that service and some focusing on different chains so of course be way easier to scale to like you know support a much larger number of chains exactly like lava is like a distribution channel for these providers think about it that way they can write the best

code uh run the best operation and infrastructure and then they compete on this Battleground and in the end they get all the users the best ones so they're able to iterate they're able to innovate they're able to build the best uh data access uh you know capabilities and then they can win and get more rewards and this is real time so over time they they can um get better or get worse versus their uh opponents I guess the big question that comes up for me here and I think that maybe ties sort of in the next topic if you actually want to go a bit deeper in here is I guess one of the I mean I understand the downside of the Cent as RBC providers but of course the upside is there's like a company and I can sign

an SLA and they're going to have a support thing and I got to call them up and and and you know I can probably expect a pretty consistent level of service whereas here if you have like all kinds of different operators for different chains different you know maybe big companies small companies how how does that work in terms of the quality of service being provided that's a really good question right so so I'll just say quality of service is like at the core of what we've built at lava we spent so much time and energy and effort into ensuring that the quality of services is

top-notch and I think it really is on lava and I think it's only going to get better uh it's I think it's going to crush everybody else uh just because we we designed it from the ground up in such a way that the users are actually the ones rating the provider based on their experience but I also want to touch on your question about slas you know signing contracts because I think these are really really important also support support is critical you know we spoke we speak with last year I think we spoke with approximately a thousand projects uh you know from DBS to chains to ecosystems and getting their uh feedback on you know what what do they need you know how is what whether they're not happy right now with their

infrastructure and support is critical for them so the way I see it you know in this in this world of web 3 there has to be a way to build a business that also supports the ecosystem that it serves and the way I it maybe it's very similar to the red hat uh foundation for example where you have this open source project or like you have the the la Network and then you have this company or multiple companies that basically Provide support for customers via on board them through gateways so they can use the gateways they can pay for these gateways the clients also pay on chain for the service but they get the support package

they get the slas and they get all these Enterprise features maybe it's some UHC certification uh so that they can operate under the standards that they need to so I think these are these are two answers and can you explain what gateways are yeah okay I'm sorry I didn't touch on that but basically Bally when you use lava and we've built it like this because we thought this is the best way to to provide you know really good quality service to everybody uh when you use lava you don't have to go through any Central server so think about um you know centralized servers is basically like a middleman that sits between you and the and the data that you want and

this middleman is basically uh you you're going to it and it's going to get the data for you and then it brings it back to you uh in lava would build it in a way in such you talk directly to the providers so there's no middleman you directly go to them you get the data a Gateway is uh a middleman like that only it enables uh easier access to the data by providing support and slas and everything that you mentioned it's funny Brian when you were asking about uh whether you know you could well when you were comparing to uh to centralized providers and you were saying that with a centralized provider you have this SLA and you can call them up and whatever I

just couldn't help but think well isn't I mean that's the same for your bank and you still use blockchains and crypto right I mean you know this this extends to the broader you know the broader crypto space I think and uh and yeah so it was just like a sort of funny remark there just using web two tools in order to uh operate in web 3 and you know for us it didn't make sense in the beginning and in order to scale you know to to cause the the billion dos and uh people like onboarding on web 3 um we need the scalability infra yeah no I I think that answer makes sense I mean I I guess one thing

the other thing that comes to my mind here is of course we've had we've also seen some decentralized projects actually doing like an okay job my understanding or maybe maybe even good job at support I think osmosis is like an example right where they used to Comm community pool to like fund teams to you know deal with support requests and generate for like good feedback that seems to be working pretty well um but yeah the Gateway thing also makes sense so basically then I would yeah like let's say as a as an operator or like as someone needing RPC I signed some contract and then I can all you know always query basically all the requests get routed through that Gateway node and then

they can like let's say track up time and if they're issues they troubleshoot it and maybe I can pay them with dollars a credit card and they pay cuz cuz in the end operators would get paid on chain using lava tokens or like how do the payments work to The Operators so yeah so the way it would work and I think you know the Gateway concept is an open Gateway you know anyone can talk to the foundation put up a governance proposal and start operating Gateway the but the important part uh and this is also touching on seb's point I think is which is interesting is that um it's it's done in a way that is also familiar to the

customer I think this is in general a way that you know web three projects need to be able to um to give answers to web to type customers I think it's I think it's crucial in the end you want to operate with many many different companies that want to use a service and they need some sort of a Gateway right to get familiar with it because they don't know how to buy tokens and go on chain and buy a subscription on lava so maybe it's easier the first step for them is to pay this type of Gateway operator uh to buy for them and then give them the service uh and then the operator you know goes buy tokens goes on chain buys it for them with some kind of referral code and this is how it works and this referral code basically gives that provider a portion whatever

he agreed with the governance to Now operate this contract so say you want to buy the service you come to this operator you pay let's say 100 lava uh he goes on chain he buys it for you and he takes a 20% cut and then with this 20% he operates you know the servers uh he operates the support center uh he offers slas he does Audits and gives you the convenience that unit for web to project but if you're fully three project you don't need any of that crap you can just go on chain you can buy the subscription with tokens and you don't need to talk to anybody or go for any governance so go through anything else let's go a little bit under the hood here I'd love to get a better

understanding of like what the network topology looks like so you know we talked about um some of the like these operators but what are all of the roles in the network and how are they interacting with each other and I think importantly how are they interacting with applications I think one of the you know the core principle that guided us when thinking about lava and by the way we are lava protocol so the you know the core contributors to the lava Network um was to keep it simple right we have three different actors main actors on The Chain we have the DBS buying on

chain subscription we have the provider staking lava uh in order to participate and we have the validators that keeping um you know keeping the service uh running and um down into that we see that not providing not provider serving data modules that call specs and those specs are being defined by the Champions that Gil mentioned before uh Champion can be anyone from any chain whether it's a small upcoming rollup or it's a used ex existing chain it doesn't matter better but uh just coming up with the governance proposal in order to Define this spec um actually is creating this unique spec that the uh DBS can

afterward use so this DBS in consumer they using this um data and they being paired off with the offchain uh peer-to-peer communication protocol directly to the uh provider themselves so imagine that that from the browser you can get a list of top providers and receive service when Gil mentioned before we were speaking with more than thousands project this year they constantly um refer back and told us about the problems that they having they are they using centralized provider and usually not once but then they need to come up with node balancing With Disaster Recovery with all of these

different uh things that as a small dap they don't need to do so lava taking this burden away from them and implementing that and give them 99.999 availability of the service after the service has being done um the DB signing the transaction and uh sending back all the different parameters about the service so availability the reliability of the service the accuracy and this is made this is H being used for this score to score again the provider for them to get more and more service um that's in general the different actors on The Chain so just

one thing you know think about the blockchain like a a restaurant and think about specs as like uh the menu at the restaurant right so the menu of the restaurant tells the people come to eat this is what you can have you can have this type of salad or this type of soup or entro uh and this is what specs are um so for every chain you have these these different menus right um and the way we see it is that you know any chain that is launching an OP stack uh you know like blast or any other ones or any chain that is launching on dimension for example and you roll up that is laun on Dimension or arbitr they can immediately this is the vision um as part of the

launch you know propose this spec on chain this menu that immediately you have all these you know hundreds of providers well this is their job this is their bread and butter they come in and they're like we're going to run notes for this we think this is gonna you know give us a lot of rewards they go ahead and run nodes then you you have this amazing network of node operators giving all these customers the best service one thing that you know always happens and we see it every single time I think everybody's going to agree with me as soon as there is like an air drop or there's like a test net being launched that people start you know farming or playing with the first thing that happen is they RPC crashes and collapses we see it every single time uh so this is where

like lava can completely shine and take over all this usage uh and scale really easily so I want to talk a bit more about this this spec uh concept so a spec is a a document or specification that a chain or project will put forth and then it specifies as a specific does um what data to provide does it also specify like how to in the case of an indexer for example let's say we need to um fetch like some time weighted average price of like some some some um some price um or like some complex data feed

that requires some complex calculations about like pricing data that that is found on chain does the spec also specify how to arrive at that result so that it can be displayed you in the application in the front end and I think importantly what is the method by which you know this valid this data is verified and validated uh in order to maintain like accuracy of the data that's provided that's really good question because um yes it so the spec it defines as you've said what type of data you can get like a rest like a menu at the restaurant okay you can get the

soup but you want the soup without you want the salad but you don't want uh the dressing you want on the side right so the spec would specify you oh can you get the dressing on the side can you remove the onions I'm G to have a steak if you don't mind yeah so what's your uh you know what how would you like it cooked medum well so this is what the spec specifies right it does not specify it does not go into the kitchen and tells the uh Chef oh make it like this or make it like that right this is something the spec does not do this is the burden of the developers that are building the chain so they're building the way to actually uh go and get the stake make the stake uh where to get it from one

supplier what it does with the menu it does tell you what the stake is right is this a wagio A5 or you getting some uh you know something uh you know low rate so this does Define the quality right so these are I hope I hope it explains it well uh I think it's a really cool concept so I'm curious so that I I mean in the case of RPC then that maybe is like slightly less relevant I imagine no because like you have like a chain has this like RPC spec or or like maybe but it's like you know it's basically like RPC node for like a particular chain is I imagine going to be pretty uniform but

I guess um I wonder is that where this sort of API concept comes in as well where someone can make uh you know a spec for something like you know that you cannot get from a normal RPC note and yeah maybe can you talk a little bit about sort of Beyond rpcs and especially like how lava can be used to provide apis yeah so first it's non uniform at all at all Brian it's completely any every single Cosmos chain for example has like a different uh variations and add-ons and every one of them has a different versions of Co of Cosmos SDK okay so every version has a different

spec so it's not it's super fragmented this is why RPC is difficult that's why it's tough to get right this is why we've built it in such a modular way um the second thing that is important before I get to API is that a spec also allows you to specify validations which is like how many blocks are you expected to get cuz a lot of our uh customers they want to get you know they want to index the whole blockchain from from block zero for that you need to store on many chains you know 10 terabytes 20 terabytes maybe even more in some chains this is a huge burden obviously not all every operator can uh could do that right so this is why we have these types of

validations and extensions so an extension allows you to say you know I'm offering uh you know the latest data for the last two weeks whatever however many blocks it is or you could say I'm in archive node you know I have the storage and capabilities but I expect to get paid five times for archive data because I am taking a bigger burden to touch on apis um so yes that the way we've built um specs uh is a way that allows anyone to write uh spec in a way that is is uh supporting of apis like indexing like subgraphs any types of apis so you can go and write uh a spec that gives you access and we're working on Partnerships with uh

different uh indexing uh projects like Subs squid for example um that that you basically you know copy paste a subgraph uh run it on faster infrastructure faster indexing uh using uh lava and Subs squid and still get all the uh the many providers um quality of service and the uh the data reliability so we we tou briefly on the quality of service aspect which is like very important in the context of RPC uh and data provisioning how can you go into detail about how the quality of service algorithm works and how do do users uh that are you know pinging rpcs know that they're going to get a good

quality RPC provider or indexer yeah you know we went to Great Lengths to make sure that the service is really DP Notch uh we really did uh and it starts from the from the beginning uh basically how do you choose the provider so you choose the provider based on how much money how much stake they have in the system so the more stake they have the more likely that they will be in your pairing list pairing list is the list of providers that you can use once you have this list you can talk to any of these providers so we've written this very complex engineering feat we call the the uh provider Optimizer it's is it's by the way everything is seamless for you

just like using a regular RPC so the RPC uh the provider Optimizer is basically uh like a friend that goes and checks every provider give me the latest block give me the latest block whatever is the fastest and has the most uh relevant fresh information like the the latest block so you're not looking at all data it basically saves them at the top of the list and then when you get the data you you're talking to them so let's say you have all these providers uh you're in Europe right so someone uh in you know Central Europe has a server and he's really really fast you're going to be talking to them so this is what the RPC uh the provider Optimizer does now as you talk to him you're start writing

down okay this guy okay is giving me you know it's fast it's slow oh here he was you know he was uh not as fast as I expected I moved to somebody else you write these report cards you save them and then you send them um and then they get on chain from these providers there's a process I want to get into it uh these report cards go on chain and they affect um the provider's uh payout basically so the provider has a an incentive to always provide really good service so but it doesn't affect the whole payout um on top of that we have what we call Excellence quality of service and this is the same report cards over time

they accumulate on chain and they are saved uh in this this provider's profile this is like a way to build reputation for a provider on chain um and then less that hope not so not too much the Excellence quality of service score their reputation for this provider is also uh one of the factors that affects its pairing list so go back to the first step it's how much money is Stak in because if he Stakes a lot of saying I'm serious I'm here I can handle your requests uh and then over time how good were you and we have all these customers that are paying and they're using their uh you know payouts basically to score

it if you go back to the menu example it's like you have Trip Advisor connected directly with the uh with the menu itself so it gives you constant feedbacks for the meal you just ate but it's built in you don't need afterwards to get something everything is happening on chain okay and so users are rating the the service providers it it is the end user like the guy who's doing the transaction in metamask you know on Unis swap or whatever application is using lava that is doing this rating or is it the developers yeah it's it's when you

say doing that's that's an interesting way because everything is happening automatically right so during the transaction we are aggregating all the different parameters about the scalability the freshness of the data so those are being used in order to score the existing transaction the existing session with the provider and during during the lifespan obviously the scoring change according to the service they they give so how does that work if if the actual service is provided like peer-to-peer without some note in between like how how would you how do you even have that information that's that's really good question I think it's and it's a bit

complex just because of how the protocol is working and I think you know this is where the gateways come in and this is where the SDK comes in so as I've said in the beginning you know you can use lava without any Central uh middleman to do that you can use the SDK or you can run your own Gateway right and this is all open source the other way is if you use a Gateway if you use a gateway then the Gateway basically scores for you okay so this is how it works now the spec that we talked about which is like one of the core components of lava is basically uh defining the communication between the consumer and and the provider so actually there's a there's a protocol there's a network protocol that wraps the actual RPC query with everything we just spoke about this is

like a channel between the consumer and the provider with everything the rating uh the quality of service the uh conflict detection which we didn't talk about but it's a way to ensure that the data is accurate as well cool and how does the pricing work here how is it determined you know how much these Services cost you know at the beginning we uh we're always giving this answer that you know ask us how how come you coming up with this good service and basically we said we took all the top centralized provider pricing list put it into the chat GPT came up with a better price but the thing behind lava is the um that is a real economy right it's a real Market

that going to balance between the supply and demand so if you start with a certain price it can goes up and down based on the demand so I I can give you an example if there is a you know a service an nft drop that's being given in a like a place that there are not many Supply obviously the price is going to go up and going to um going to invite more and more providers let's say you know suddenly the there is um you know nft drop and a need in in Africa or South Africa or something and you have only two providers there so obviously the the demand upon the drop going to be higher and higher again and this is how

we balancing the the protocol is automatically balancing the supply and demand mechanic I'll just add that even though we're you know we've been running in testnet with we've all already signed contracts with uh ecosystems uh and these ecosystem have distributed tens of thousands of dollars to Providers uh this is already been done and there's hundreds of thousands more that are going to be signed and distributed uh in this year so I think you know it's already showing its uh lava is already showing stability to really support uh different blockchains and to touch on the pricing as they said for for ecosystems today you know the way it

works is they go to let's say one of the big centralized providers and they sign a contract this contract can be for a whole year can be for multiple years and this contracts uh locks them in to a certain price and one of the complaints we've heard from them is that they don't want to be locked in because sometimes uh the market is not active and sometimes the market is really active so they want to be able to balance the payouts to these uh no dryers basic under the demand and I think it makes complete sense right second pay as you go so is the most way the most efficient way to to to pay providers so this is what we've built in love so these ecosystems like OS like XLR uh like near

and and many others that are signing uh and have signed already they are able to set their own budget they're saying this month or next three months I'm going to put let's say a 10,000 lava tokens in the uh in the pool on chain in this on the spec on the menu and then all the providers know this month you're getting 10,000 so they can decide is this worth enough there okay there's a thousand providers does it make sense for me to join maybe not okay there's 20 providers does it make sense for me to yes hell yeah you know if I'm good I can get a really good share of the pie and this is why it's a dynamic markins interesting yeah so so there is this kind of like market equilibrium

that you know you hope to achieve here uh depending on like demand and you know how well networks are being served is this something you've already demonstrated with the networks on which uh you've been you've been working with like that data providers sort of rearrange and reposition themselves on particular networks when demand is higher and retract when demand demand is lower we've been able to demonstrate that using lava you you're able to give an excellent top-notch service of RPC and attract many providers um but the payout has been constant in the near

future as we launch mayet I believe this is going to change and it's going to be much more Dynamic but it's a process that will happen over time we are seeing that and this is already live on tnet uh that these rewards they make sense for providers to run and give really good service we've we've received the a lot of praise for uh the different Services we're offering to these ecosystems and uh we're seeing inbound from other chains that have recently launched test Nets and have been struggling uh they reaching out to us asking can we we use the same incentivization model to bring in more providers for our Network so we're definitely seeing it uh taking off yeah and I think it Bears uh reminding people that lava has been test

for a while but that it it's actually like working with live chain so even though the network is in testnet all of the data providers are actually providing like real data and um there's something like 30 or 35 networks currently live on lava correct yeah it's a production grade system right right now uh like for for one year and I just want to touch upon the previous um you know what brought us to ecosystem because lava that there a decentralized service and today everyone is talking about decentralized RPC service um but then we got approaches by ecosystem to solve and take away the burden of public

RPC because public RPC is the first stop of every Dev into the ecosystem so if the ecosystem is able to provide uh a scalable service RPC and then apis and all of these um you know headaches of how do they accessing data for different apps it goes without saying so ecosystem came back to us and told us can lava actually provide this public RPC can they give can you give us insight into the ecosystem and um obviously we jumped into that and we presented in October first time the incentivized public RPC when uh the ecosystem put in incentives

for different provider to join permissionless and get reward for the service they give and we started doing that in OS and afterward in Axel we just announce near and all of this distribution of the different rewards being being done only in the last few months so working on three different chains so in the pipeline we have now uh from filecoin Stark net Coy agoric and more are coming to Lev one okay very cool one thing I wanted to inquire about as well is is relayer so one of the issues you know particularly in Cosmos chains is that like reers are not incentivized for their work does lava

facilitate um the matching of you know chains and Rel layers as well or is that completely outside of the scope yeah I think that you know we're seeing a lot of discussions around IBC uh and its fundamental design and I think you know IBC has been an incredible protocol that really puts you know Cosmos lights here ahead of any other uh ecosystem uh but in at its core there's a core issue with payments for real layers and I think that we will definitely be able to see lava help with that right now our focus is launching Manet you know bringing the power of of um you know the modular uh

unlock that we can do with lava to to change and rollups you know they're built on igen layer on ethereum on Dimension but for sure you know once we're you know we're more um we're done with that we definitely be able to help with uh Rel layers and and try to solve core issues like that in the cosmos ecosystem as well so you mentioned model again yeah you mentioned it earlier so of course I understand that you know for also modular change rollups well you still need RPC you still need this things so I understand how like you know the you know lava stack is still is still relevant in that kind of modular world

but I'm curious is is there more to this or um what do you see is sort of the connection between lava and modular chains if you look at you know web 3 right if you look at what's happening today I think that everyone's cominging to the same conclusion exposion right there's going to be an explosion of chains but how many uh chains are going to be like full purpose uh not specific purpose uh like ethereum full purpose you know they can run anything you want smart contract or you have application specific ones on Cosmos or rollups uh so I think um I think it's pretty obvious

that in the future we're going to have all these chains they're going to explode they're going to be super successful but how how do you weave One path through all of them it's super difficult and it sucks I mean it sucks today trying to use all these chains it sucks it's really it's really difficult even for you know I'm a te user I consider myself a power user it's difficult for me to keep track of all the chains and all of my assets across all of them and to interact with them and and Bridge tokens and make sure I'm using the right bridge and don't get hacked until we solve these core issues we're not going to have a good a good system and one of the things that we're seeing prop pop and I've been thinking about it a

lot is how do you like imagine the future web 3 you have one wallet and he has access to all of the chains and he shows you the assets on all of your chains and you don't care where your assets are you don't care if they're you know on uh you know kmos you don't care if the the assets are on ethereum arbitrum you don't care where they are they're just there and you want to move them somewhere no problem you don't need to think about wait do I have uh osmosis osoto to perform the trade to do to move the tokens or do I have this token or that token or start thinking about the gas you know so I think the future of web 3 is some kind of system that allows you know for full chain obstruction for so you don't even to

think you don't know what a bridge is you don't know what gases this is the only way to reach Mass adoption which I think is the goal of what we're doing and when we were thinking about lava we're thinking about modularity we're thinking how can lava be one of these cool um key unlocks in this in this stack and we see that you know okay there's RPC we can talk about RPC all day but it's really really boring but you have to do it really well but then you have to be able to launch it really fast for all these chains what if you could on top of the RPC and on top of the apis use this now Network that has basically stakes from every single osystem and all these uh providers are now St to verify the

data is correct on love them what if you're able to use that to build some uh chain abstraction that enables you to you know more freely uh move assets around um you know access um all the different blockchains without even known and still trusting that data is correct still have have everything decentralized so this is what we're trying to think of of the grander vision of uh of chain obstruction and how level fits in and unlocks this if I had on top of that you know what you said before when describing like doesn't matter if you take the monolithic path Theses right the the modular blockchain or if you go to the

rollup Centric all of them need the data access layer if you give devs devs the the right tools to build the the infrastructure if you build them if you take the burden away from them from whatever they building this will scale the industry and Seb you mentioned before the the banks right so if there is a two providers that you go for them for the data and and two of them is down how you going to get access to your metamask how you can promise your users as a wallet that they can make transactions all of that we believe with this modular layer it's something that laava is able able to save and we call

it a build whatever wherever build whatever it's you build it whatever you want whatever adbs not focusing on the infa and wherever is in the multi chain so can you guys talk about magma yes of course uh magma is a super exciting confidential project that's uh not anymore gonna ah sorry but it's not live right uh so we're going to yeah it's going to we're going to announce it uh uh on the 15th of uh of uh February and this is basically brings a nontechnical users

all of us that have a wallet to share the the lab of vision to share the web three values the magma is the point system that lava is presenting it allows any user to use the lava end points chain that at the back end of the wallet in order to get access that is super available it's decentralized and obviously it's it's scalable um so basically jumping quickly into the magma magma is the phase coming always before the lava and we already announced that the Manet is going to come up soon uh magma point system is uh a signing it's a program that every every uh use every

user that has a wallet can sign up and uh start receiving points for the the usage you do with the wallet for transaction you get scores for just watching the wallet it um also create creates points and because all of them is at the core that making RPC request and every RPC request is being scored for you as a as a as a user and you can watch it over the lead Port cool and so uh which brings me to my next question when main net mainnet you know our Engineers working around the clock in order to address the main net um uh we are trying

to push for uh end of q1 and uh yeah this is a super exciting times so uh you know stay tuned for that very cool and so where where should people go if well I guess there a couple things right if you're building an application and uh want to inter lava to provide RPC to your users like there's like one category of people that um should check out lava but also if you're an infrastructure provider uh and want to provide infrastructure for the lava network uh where should these categories of uh listeners go to so I think uh the team did a great

job writing the do the the documentation uh we have an amazing disco Channel with thousands of member very vibrant uh and uh always asking questions getting getting them answered by the community themselves for the new users um so start with uh our website laanet doxyz um you can see there lot of documentation and uh jump into our Discord we call also the non crypto non-tech users to amplify and bring more of the values of uh of lava uh in the upcoming months um the foundation will reach out and uh you know present

different programs and we all start uh tomorrow or the 15th of uh of uh February with the magma with the magma program cool well thank you so thank you so much for coming on actually I just wanted to mention one thing which I think we should have mentioned the start but we forgot so uh you know as most of you know my main thing is running course one and with course one we did invest in lava and we're running validator and I think Seb with his fund also invested in lava so we just wanted to mention that yes inter R Ventures are also investors in lava so full disclosure and running validators uh cool well thanks so much guys for coming on that was super

interesting uh I think it's definitely something that I could see getting a lot of traction right and uh it would be really great to see how this sort of things evolve once minut is Al and uh you know over the next year so thanks so much for coming on guys thank you so much pleasure being here cheers