The Evolution of Crypto Exchanges | Austin Adams & Jesse Walden

Transcript

and I think like we we're seeing the next evolution of that with like Unis SWAT V4 and these other modular amm because like they're like okay well if we're going to you know everything's going to be specialized now why don't we just be a protocol essentially like a platform for people to build on top but I think that has been the Natural Evolution of how uh amm will evolve is now it's like okay well we don't we're not going to be perfect so let's let people just build bring what they want to the table and build on top of it hey everyone quick disclaimer before we get into today's episode nothing said on bell curve is a recommendation to buy or sell Securities or tokens this podcast is for informational purposes only and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions not

Financial advice our guest and I may hold positions in the companies funds or projects discussed all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve today I'm joined by Austin Adams the founder of wetstone research and Jesse Walden uh founder in GP at variant guys welcome thank you for having us very exciting to be here likewise yeah this is going to be a ton of fun um so this is going to be an episode which is mostly focused on uh exchanges within crypto so mostly focused on dexes but a little bit of sexes as well um and Austin we're going to spend a lot of time uh talking about what you're building at wetstone um but before we get into some of the details um sort more some of the mechanical details of

what you're building I want to start at a 10,000 foot level here and just get a state of the union or state of play on dex's Brit large here and you know I think over the course of the last couple years you know we've seen meaningful evolution in terms of the design architecture of many dexes that exist today um you've seen increasingly that dexes are eating more and more market share away from Sexes which I think is something that we're all you know very positive on and very supportive of uh but also that we've seen some migration in terms of where activity is happening around sexes in general and you know there's kind of a monopoly that ethereum had a couple of years ago and now we see an enormous amount of activity over on uh pump fun and you know it's been interesting to me to see how sticky that

that volume has actually been and that trading activity has been so maybe Austin or Jesse whoever feels Brave as here and wants to kick it off first can you just give us kind of a state of the play uh or you know state of play in terms of where dexas are at today I guess I can go so I think like the thing that's really interesting to me on like how dexes have evolved over the last year or the last few years is like they went from sort of one- siiz fits-all solutions to sort of like specific modular Solutions we've seen this over time with like Unis swap V2 and V3 being like really good generalized solutions to now like entire amms built around pegged ass entire amm's built around uh specific stable coin assets entire amm built around meme coins and we're sort of seeing this evolution of like as

there's a broader amount of assets being listed on top of uh Dex markets they're sort of seeing specialized pieces around this and I think like we we're seeing the next evolution of that with like Unis SWAT V4 and these other modular amm because like they're like okay well if we're going to you know everything's going to be specialized now why don't we just be a protocol essentially like a platform for people to build on top but I think that has been the Natural Evolution of how uh amm will evolve is now it's like okay well we don't we're not going to be perfect so let's let people just build bring what they want to the table and build on top of it and I think like that's the evolution we've seen with unisp V4 and these other ones is that like people are now just

building extraordinarily specialized amms to build on top and then building on top of these like really Lindy secure layers and then building these like really specific things that like they do one thing really well and that's like what we're building at Dopp or wetstone with Doppler is like a very specific customized amm designed specifically for a task of like getting liquidity to Market and then building pieces around that that build an ecosystem uh on top of it and uh that's like not possible Right previously it's only possible today with like the uh innovations that unisat V4 and these other amms have buil I might I might come out this like from from so like I agree with everything a and said I might just like go a level

higher and you know more abstract I don't know if that's helpful but um I I guess like my view is so like start starting from this very like big idea which is like all the world's value is going to be tokenized on chain you know that's something that I believe for like 10 years and um you know that's like what what was underlying our investment in Unis swap you know five plus years ago and um and and and I think we're just in the very early Innings of that starting to to Really Happen and you know we started with you know crypto assets that secure native blockchains we we are today in in in in the sort of like mcoin era and we're starting to see more and more projects launch token first um

we're starting to see RW come on chain so I think this is to totin's point like there's there's all these different types of assets being issued on chain and and for each of them we're starting to see different types of deck Solutions get spun up and and and so where Unis Unis swap started was this very general primitive you know that allowed for tokens to be traded and and the thesis back then was well if all the if all the world's assets are going to be tokenized they're going to need a venue to trade as as we've kind of Diversified the types of assets we're starting to diversify the the the venue um as well and um that's happening in two ways one is the sort of platformization of dexs which with unisoft V4 which is a platform for developers to customize

things and it's also happening in a sort of like vertically integrated way where you're seeing platforms like pump and virtuals and others like design bespoke Solutions um and I guess my view is like and you see this I think a lot in in software generally is like whenever you see um developers going full stack to like solve their own problem and and like build all the way down to the amm and all the way up to the end user product experience like that that's an opportunity for someone to build um tooling under the hood that just makes those developers jobs easier and that's you know what Austin was mentioning like they're building the this tooling um that solves a very important part of the puzzle of tokenizing all the world's value which is um issuance um right so so if Unis

swap is is the platform for exchange and you know exchanging all the world's value like the low there's still this other side of the equation which is issuance and how do we issue all the world's value on chain and do it in a in a really efficient way it's it's kind of surprising that in 2025 that's still lwh hanging fruit and and I think that's that's my view of the problem Austin is is solving all right so I want to try to summarize here and then unpack some of these issues a little bit more specifically so maybe the driving force here is just the sheer amount of assets that are coming on chain and that could be in the form of rwas or these you know million uh new pump fund tokens that are spinning up and anything and everything in between uh that so you know the

actual infrastructure around dexas is maturing here um and so you've got kind of these platforms that have sprung up and they're actually doing uh full stack kind of vertical Integrations so that could be Unis swap that could also be Jupiter over on salana and they're kind of running something of the same Playbook right they' bought this controlling stake in moonshot uh right they've got Meteora as well some sort of relationship there roughly maybe sort of same thing uh and then you have kind of this tooling layer and also I want to talk a lot about some of the frictions that asset issuers are having um actually I would love to get your guys take uh you know I wasn't actually planning on going this way but on the sort of the full stack and vertical integration because this has been you actually have seen roughly the opposite

of that in crypto thus far especially in the ethereum ecosystem um especi you know I've done a whole season on liquid staking with Lio where we talked with hu about kind of having a very flat uh surface area and maybe that aligns with how we've historically thought about Dow governance uh as well and the strategy is to to be very horizontal and very thin um but in the decks uh in the Dex area you're starting to see the unops of the world go very full stack so I would be curious how you guys think about that as a strategy and if you see that being a trend overall in D5 vertical integration or maybe it's something that uniquely makes sense for for dex's so yeah I can take I can start here I mean so if if you rebond back to when Unis swap first launched I I think like it's

under appreciated they kind of were vertically integrated from the start right because they built both the protocol the very you know x y equals K amm and they built this really buttery user experience on top with with Unis swap. org or you know the original swapper product and and I think like that that had a lot to do with their early success because you know that that that swap product was like a kind of mindblowing ux relative to what centralized exchanges were offering what other dexes were offering at the time and you could kind of you know K who's the designer um back then like he could kind of int it this is the right interface for this really simple and you know uh protocol right x x y equals K like you can have this kind of really

simple swapper interface so it's the right interface right tool for the job and so my point being unisoft was kind of vertically integrated from from the jump they built the product and the protocol and I think that helped them bootstrap liquidity um because there was demand liquidity you know came uh to to you know they also had tooling for LPS early on so um I think that's actually been a pretty effective strategy not just for Dex but just across Define really across crypto is like you can't just build a protocol you also have to build often have to build the first product on top that just shows people how to use it and bootstraps including Network effects in the underlying protocol and then so fast forward to today and and and unof doesn't just have the front end and and the protocol they

also have e swap X they have the wallet right so they've gone like even they've got they've gone both like down the stack from the you know the user product to Unis swap X the aggregator and the protocol sets beneath that and now there's uni chain right which is going to be or there's soon uni chain which is going to be beneath all of that and they've gone all the way up to the user by building a wallet um and and I do think that's that's very opportunistic um spec especially in the case of unop where theyve built a trusted brand um to go further up towards the end user at the wallet layer um and they're innovating all the way down the stack and and in so doing capturing a lot of value so it's it's something that I think uh projects that that have a lot

of distribution are uniquely well positioned to do but not not everyone can do that out of the gate and and and so but but there's some slice of that that I think is advisable for new protocols which is like build build the first product that bootstraps liquidity in your dype protocol yeah I think the one thing I would add is like un sw's well positioned to understand the limits of the AR or the like infrastructure they're building on top of they're very uh it's like one of the largest use cases of ethereum block space like they very much understand the tradeoffs that happen on the infrastructure there and so like that I think has driven a lot of the decisions of like verticalization is like you know they want like on the wallet experience they want to control the wallet experience because like one of the reasons they did that was Unis

swap X was really difficult to work on with uh the current wallet ux and so it was like if we want to improve the wallet ux let's just build the wallet because we're going to have to do it at some point and so it's something similar with like uni chain was like we want to build all these chain benefits we deeply understand the tradeoffs uh that we as our product need and how can we build those things I think like that comes from a lot of expertise and understanding sort of the limits of the current ecosystem and so I think verticalization is is it makes a lot of sense for them because they themselves are very uh you know have a lot of experience with that yeah I want to get a sense from you guys of um why you guys think Dex market share has been growing

uh so steadily so it's actually one of the better charts in crypto just from my perspective and people who root for you know protocols in general over some of their centralized not that there's anything wrong with centralized exchanges but it's cool to see the dex's win um and you know I think the other trend is just the sheer amount of assets that are getting issued um on blockchains these days I'm sure we Brian Armstrong CEO of coinbase did a tweet the other day saying hey they're they they have to take a they're basically um entirely reimagining what their listing process is surely because of the amount of new assets that are coming online so maybe you guys could just comment a little bit on both of those Trends and whether or not you see them as being related actually yeah I I'll start I mean the premise of Dex is has always

been that they are permissionless right and and the result of permissionless in deck is any asset can be listed without having to go through some complex listing process um so that was always the bet with Unis op right is like there's going to be a very long tail every asset in the world is going to be on chain um and you don't want to have to ask for permission to have a venue for that to trade and that's why Unis swap was a good bet it was that simple when when I first saw it like light bulb was went off um and and so I don't think you can unbundle these two things right like that the number of new assets being issued and Dex dominance are directly related um you know so so so so to me that's that's the explanation for what's going on here is like all the world's

Valu is coming on chain and and and and dexes are the are the primary beneficiary of that because they're permissionless I think the other key thing there is like the ux on the onchain ux is getting significantly better and so at the pr the core like if you have the same ux as a centralized exchange you can get the same trade or you can get more trades because there's there's more assets on chain you can get you know better execution like why would you not trade on a de uh and so I think like that's also been improving a lot I would say that wallet ux has gotten significantly better chain ux it's cheaper to trade on chain today and so it's sort of a bet of like the ux is going to continue to get better and I think like we've seen this with Hyper liquid it's like at its core

like people prefer the programmability they prefer the ability to like control their own assets and if they have the same buttery ux and the same execution like there is not really a large benefit for centralized exchanges I think like that's the key uh belief that people have when they uh see that chart because I I the same chart I've seen is like it's like up only on the centralized decentralized exchange volume share so so I think like that's going to continue to happen as more assets come on Shain yeah absolutely and you know I remember that this was one of the early wins for UNIS Swap and why people got so excited at the beginning of defi summer was that you actually had better price execution happening for the longtail of crypto assets on uh Unis swap than on

the coin bases or bances of the world and I wonder if this trend of just more and more assets getting issued on chain is the longtail has actually gotten more and more valuable um in terms of a space to to be at and if there's a trend here of uh you know Austin you and I were actually were chatting earlier today about this idea of Internet Capital markets and I know multicoin recently published um a thesis on this I know Austin this is something that you've thought about for quite some time and Jesse it sounds like you as well but maybe you could connect this idea of one of the structural advantages of dexes of being able to permission list kind of with this idea of you know Global Internet scale Capital markets with just more permissionless less friction Etc maybe slot you know dexes within that

greater vision yeah I think like the key thing about like Internet Capital markets is like uh the internet has fundamentally changed almost how every business works now like you previously one of the key benefits of iping was that like other people know you exist and they'll work with you but now you just put on like a Google ad or you you know reach out to them through email it's fundamentally changed how almost all business works in the US and in the world in general and so I think that continues with uh like this the ability to list in a decent centralized way and let everyone in the world see your asset and trade it it just makes so much sense right like why are you letting like five people at the New York Stock Exchange

look and be able to trade your asset when you can have every single person uh that's like what an asset assurer wants right they want to be as in as many eyes many buying eyes as humanly possible and I I think like that is why decentralized will win because it it's the uh you don't have to ask to be in the room you're in there automatically and you can trade if you think there's value in something you know what else outside of even just distribution I would say is like concrete examples of um maybe I would point to some of the early signs that dexes are winning here is you know it used to be and it still probably is very important to get a sex listing but at least on some of these uh meme coins um you know you kind of had the early

price Discovery take place on dex's and then everyone was waiting for a sex basically to dump uh their Meme and the sex s became exit liquidity right so the Gap in between when it got listed on a de versus sex actually became pretty important and the sex listing I think has more become an exit liquidity thing than than anything else um and yeah I just think it's it's kind of an early example right of this this actually working in practice I would say I have a I have a slightly different take on on on sort of you know squaring decks with this idea of Internet Capital markets um so I I think um to me the most exciting I like uh s sort of takeway I actually don't know if this is covered in the

multicoin post but um like when when I hear the term Internet Capital markets what's most exciting to me is you know the internet like changed what we Define as information prior to the internet right like for example news right came through the New York Times and and like you know mainstream media and and now like you know all the world's information is bits and therefore the way we consume that information is is wildly different than pre- internet right and I think I think the same is going to be true for Capital right so like before before Internet Capital markets right like we had um certain types of capital in the world and uh you know post Internet Capital markets the type of capital that we're going to have in the world is is going to be very different and I think you're already starting to see this with memecoins

right like memecoins are a new asset class I think that's the right way to think about mcoins it's an asset class that monetizes attention on the internet directly and you couldn't do that before you had Internet Capital markets right like you couldn't you know before you could tokenize memes you couldn't have Capital formation around them and so to me that's kind of the most exciting and interesting um angle on Internet Capital markets sure we can tokenize all the stocks and bonds and all the traditional capital and bring all that onchain but we can also like create entirely new forms of capital um through this vehicle of tokens right so like I always like this kind of analogy where you know the internet turned all the world's

information into packets and you know um I think the same thing is is going to happen to all the world's value where it becomes tokens and there's all this value in the world that has never had a vehicle um to for markets to form around them um like memes and and token solve that problem so so to me that's like you know that's why Dex is you know Dex as win is BEC again it comes back to this permissionless idea if you if you're able to take all this like fuzzy capital in the world and and formalize it in the form of tokens um then the the path of least resistance to liquidity for those assets is decentralized exchange because they're because they're permissionless so that to me that's how this Al you know decks is square with Internet Capital markets it's like we can have

Capital markets that we could never dream of before and you can only do it on Deck because that's the path of lease resistance that the Sexes will always be late totally and then once you build up a use case right you get some sort of network effects like liquidity Network effects or whatever it is for this new form of capital and you know one thing that I have found that um some pretty interesting in general is that you know the market for like memes have mostly found a home on salana Via pump fun and my thesis going into this was that that was going to be extremely mercenary Capital right this is kind of the hot ball of money that you probably see as a you know protocol operator which is you kind of got your core users and then these sort of mercenaries that rotate

across different protocols either Farm or or do whatever but it's actually been pretty sticky today's episode is brought to you by Ledger the global leader in digital asset security celebrating 10 years of innovation Ledger is trusted by 7 million users secures 20% of the world's digital assets and Remains the most secure Hardware wallet for your crypto and logins follow the link in this episode's show notes to grab your Ledger today and you've had different competitors V for that uh Throne like bass and everything that they're doing but sort of seems like it's it's been much thier than I thought over on pump off fun in salana and I guess my question to both of you is has that surprised you and then you know RIT large in this whole ethereum versus salana debate is you know I think salana has taken enormous amount of activity

and fees away from ethereum and it's unclear to me whether ethereum the l2s really want that back I would say they probably do but I'm curious about whether or not you think that the combo of ethereum and its l2s ecosystem has the um has the ability to uh take that back from salon now um I mean so certainly pump do fun is absolutely killing it and um and and yeah do I do think they have today a real Network effect that play in the platform because you know pumpa fun is the place you go to discover new meme meme coins or I I I don't love the term mem coins I just call them memes but you know you discover memes and and and there are markets there and and so that's that's aenue where you trade so so they I I think it's sticky and and

zooming out again like you know 10 years from now I think mcoins as an asset class are going to be like a around and be much larger as a in terms of you know to Total size um of of the asset class um now I I I'm also believer that um you know end users really don't care um where where they're trading they they just want to access the you know the market and um so I I do think there's room for for other folks to you know build products in the space like I don't know that pump fun is is the be all end all for for mcoins as an asset class like there's probably room room for um for others to play here and um so I

think jury is still out as to whether you know which which chain like retains the volume um and and again it's like whatever product offers the best user experience um will probably end up extracting the train from from the end user at some point um so so yeah it's I take a kind of Long View and and I think I think there's room for diversity here yeah I definitely think like one reason why pump is winning uh first off like they're very good Builders and they're executing very well uh but I second I think a second reason is like they there's been very little changes and sort of the market structure it sort of seems like people when they go to base or they go to you know ethereum they're sort of copy pasting the same mechanism and so like if it's the same user

experience it's the same value creation there's no why would you trade anywhere else except for pump like that if they have more Network effects like they're going to win every single time and so we believe that by like pushing on I making a better mechanism that's maybe more value capture or is less lossy you can uh you can get uh the same effect with less attention and that attention will flight wheeel to being more once you reach the same amount of levels of attention so I think like that to me is the way that I feel like people other than pumple win is by uh having sort of a less lossy system or I you know just like capturing new forms of asset issuance that are past meme

coins what Austin I like what do you mean by lossi yeah so I think like one thing I think a lot about is like there's money that comes there's money that's created once a user creates a pump token like there's value in that pump token and people are trading it uh and there a lot of people are willing to buy these tokens for the Solana they that they have uh but it's unclear how much of that value that's being put into the system comes out of it in the forms of the token price uh and if you have more loss the token price uh doesn't go up as high it goes down a lot more and so to me that that's a purely a form of just like Mev the same as like any Mev happenings on sandwiching or happens

with LPS uh it's the same exact thing uh there well well yeah I think I think I think this gets into like an interesting topic that that frankly Austin's much better equipped to talk about than than I am but like like you were asking about yeah salana versus ethereum and and sort of how that evolves with mem coins and I do think like directly adjacent to to all this is me right is like there's a ton of me um happening to to do with memco on salana um to Austin's point right like may maybe you know like there there needs to be some breakthrough and mechanism design that mitigates me and as a result creates a better Market structure maybe that's one vector on which you can innovate in in in the me coin space where there are strong

Network effects today um so yeah I I I think that's an interesting like I I was suggesting product is the way right like maybe you have to build a better product I think there's there is this other dimension that Austin's right to point out which is like maybe you can come up with a better mechanism where there's actually better value acral for creators or asset issuers and the the patrons or or people investing in those assets um so anyway that that that's a topic we could get into yeah this is probably a good I I would like to transition actually now into talking about Austin what you're building at with Doppler and maybe maybe we can talk about some of the I I think the big trend is you know what we've been discussing here which is just the sheer volume of asset issuance that is happening primarily in the meme

Market but you know across across the board as well and also maybe could you talk for a little bit about what are the pain points that exist today uh from the perspective of someone that wants to issue a token and then we can get into how Doppler is solving those yeah I think like I for meme coins we see like one problem that we sort of see with meme coins is the the inefficiency of the market and how uh the value capturing is very difficult for them and what we are sort of thinking about at wetstone is like how do we build a system that lets users not think about like what the best system for them or the best use casee for them and they can focus on uh building their product uh we've actually seen like I one thing

that really made me interested in this design space is seeing real protocols and real applications wanting this instant liquidity from pump so they'll issue like they'll make a product with their token uh and that will be the token for their whole product and they use pump to do that because there's not really any alternatives for them uh but the one of the problems with there's few problems with pump there is like it's a pretty one-sized fits-all solution like if you have a very large token or you are having like a real product maybe the selling uh going Fair launch at like $69,000 is not a a good use case for you you want to have like a more uh flexible solution so we think that like the world

that we're going to see a lot of tokens that are issu that are past just meme coins they're also like products they ecosystems or their applications and the selling sort of all of their tokens at such a low price is not feasible for them uh and we think that like one of the ways you can solve that is by having a system that's more modular it's more flexible and it's not as sort of like uh putting everyone in the same uh sort of like the peg in the same hole as everyone else and so that's sort of what we have built at wetstone is like we're building the system that I sort of evolves with how the market has evolved over time uh so like if you have a big product and you have a ton of demand very early on for your asset uh

Doppler will adjust to the market conditions to try to get you as much money as possible for your token okay so I want to actually get a little bit concrete here and not to not to pick on pump not picking on pump at all but they're sort of the dominant place where early price Discovery happens for memes today and then ultimately that ends up graduating to a pool on radium or something like that so for folks who might not be as familiar with the mechanics and what looks like under the hood can you just describe a little bit about how price Discovery happens on pump today and the migration into like another Pool um and then maybe we can start to highlight what some of the uh challenges are how it could look differently right with what you're building at Toler yeah yeah so I think

like the thing that the rough thing that pump does is they take a share of the token Supply they put it in an amm at a certain static price and then if you go past that uh so it's like a a simple position they put in there and then if the token price if enough people buy that token it migrates to radium according to like a static amount out and so usually what that means is like it starts at a really low price and enough people buy to make the token the whole token ecosystem worth more than $69,000 it migrates to radium uh but there's actually like a lot of problems with that like what if the token you're trying to issue you know it's higher than 69,000 you don't need this price Discovery this like lowlevel price

Discovery at such a low price uh and then one of the other things is like uh the the the LP Supply is burned which is like a huge amount of capital the system has created that like would be very valuable for token issuers to have uh and the system like it's sort of like a oniz fits-all system so we've seen like a lot of people they'll issue their meme coin or their token on pump it'll immediately Bond it'll just get ran through immediately by a bunch of sniper Bots and then they immediately dump it because uh retail Traders have come in to trade for them it's actually like not necessary it's not like a requirement you can uh improve on that mechanism quite greatly to limit retail losses to limit amount of sniping to

limit uh the loss the the like losing value at different places in the system so um I want to get a sense as well of you know this is one of those things where you know if you ever watched one of these tokens on pump fun run right it looks like kind of this crazy you know shooting up pattern maybe a little dip and then a shooting up pattern something like that and then you know it's either the next fart coin or it's you know you're cooked um so you know maybe what I what I hear you advocating for here is okay there are some issuers that know already maybe it's because they've got an audience or a brand or some form they've innovated on distribution or whatever it is that this is going to be we don't need to start at effectively zero here for a

price and actually we can start um at a price equilibrium which makes a lot more sense um and then the other thing too is that you know maybe you don't maybe there's reason uh to not actually have if you're if you have a long longer term time Horizon on your pro project that you don't actually want a chart which rips 10,000% in two days because then it's got nowhere to go but but down um so is that roughly kind of what we should be expecting here in terms of like flexibility and how like a price chart might look like going live on Doppler versus pump fund yes it's like one of the reasons why you have that really fast run up and that drop it's like very baked in I you see it in almost every single chart on all pump fun coins is because of the sort of

sniping mechanism that happens is that like the early sniper Bots buy retail users come in they s of Hit the top and the sniper Bots sell that's so sort of it creates that pattern almost every single time I and that's just because of like the uh anti there's no anti- sniping protection in built inside the protocol and so we're hoping to get rid of that instead of like instead of the Mev Bots capturing that sort of run up and run down the token price itself or the token itself captures that value so instead of like having this run up and down you sort of like have this more seamless experience uh with their price chart and yeah like there's a lot of other sort of things that we can do like a besting has been in our protocol for a

while uh modular things you can do with the fees of the protocol have been in ours a while so you could do things like bootstrap a lending pool or Bridge assets across chain or and create new liquidity pools on new ecosystems all sort of inside the core Primitives so users don't have to do these things instead the system themselves does it uh and they are like well audited they're done by hopefully professional developers and so all that token issuers have to do with sort of like either go to an interface that has those support or just like sort of click the buttons for the the features they want for their token and we think that like that's like a very uh modular yet uh strong experience for these token issuers

because like they want flexibility they don't want to think about like is my uh thing safe is what should I use like I think they just sort of want a high quality experience that does the action they want in the in the the tokenization market maybe maybe I I can jump in and and sort of um take take a stab at some of the issues I see with with token token issuance generally so I think one thing starting with one thing pump did really well is is they they standardized issuance um and and they made it easy for anyone to do it right so like prior prior to pump you know launching a mcoin was hard you had to like deploy smart contracts um those smart contracts may or may not be audited they you know often were custom built they often had

bugs and people got rugged just technically um so so pump kind of fixed fixed that but to Austin's point they they fixed it by giving everyone a one siiz fits-all solution um and and so um I I think one of the opportunities that exists in the market for for issuing tokens is is to have more control over your issuance and that's that's what Austin been talking about here is right you you want to give asset issuers whether it's a mcoin or a startup um tools to customize the curve on on which their price is going to move and in so doing like in giving those tools to issuers you can also solve another problem that exists with pump which is um sniping right so so so the curve that because it starts at zero and it's meant

to run up to to you know 69420 um it it invites snipers to just front run everybody and and like a a crw as much of the token as possible and then right when it gets up to that you know high water mark of 69420 they just they just dump or get out the snipers get out um and and so you can have a different curve that basically sells less of the tokens earlier on um and and as a result disadvantages snipers who are who are playing the front running game um the result of that of course is like well real authentic community members who want to invest in your project can can get in um and and not you know they don't have to compete directly against the snipers who who are at a you know distinct Advantage so so

so that those are like two I think that's very lwh hanging fruit for um you know for optimizations on on token issuance is like let's let's make it so issuers can customize their curb and like optimize for different things and and and also let's make sure that investors um can can can get in as opposed to to bots um so that yeah that that that's the lwh hanging fruit um anything anything else you'd add a yeah I think like one thing uh that we're really really excited about is this ability to do more things with your liquidity so pump for example burns the LP Supply to ensure that they have liquidity to trade uh but you could do more things with that like you could uh initialize a lending pool on morpha you

could Bridge some of that liquidity cross chain you could uh like create an oracle pool to have an oracle for your protocol and so by having this programmability oh you could like another thing you could do is you could use some of the lp e Fe is to do buyback and burns for your token so with the ability to have like this uh this system in which you can pick M multiple things you can do a lot of uh extensions to the core protocol that enable specific user experiences that are desirable for the builders uh like maybe a builder wants to get their token everywhere they want to let anyone trade on any ecosystem with the Doppler stuff they can click and go everywhere without having to think about it and they Outsource this to uh the dopper uh protocol and the

sort of like audited smart contract so uh they can look at them themselves they can audit them they can see the audits or they can just sort of trust that like the Auditors have picked these things up that's super interesting uh I even thinking about maybe some like one form of value cool that I know some Protocols are interested in right there's kind of like the buyback and burn or there's actually lping their own token so somewhere that where that might make sense is like the eth ldo pair or something like that or steth ldo whatever Ledger is the global leader in digital asset security trusted by 7 million users and securing 20% of the world's digital Assets in recent years Ledger has built a comprehensive ecosystem of products and services making digital ownership more secure and accessible for everyone Ledger's newest devices Ledger stacks and Ledger Flex

introduced the world's first secure touchscreens making it easier and safer to manage your assets alongside Ledger stacks and Ledger Flex they have also launched The Ledger security key app offering a safer alternative to traditional password management follow the link in today's show notes to get started with Ledger today so that's super interesting I also this this is a podcast for mass of nerds as both of you guys know so can we actually get into a little bit of some of the mechanics actually that you're doing on uh the curve for Doppler and how you guys do uh like what the pricing mechanism looks like there yeah so the the there's two protocols there was the one Jesse's talking about the V3 version where we I modulate how the the steepness of the curve to uh make it run up faster uh for earlier buyers but I I think the the

Doppler V4 version is is much more interesting uh it uses a lot of the benefits of V4 natively uh and how how it sort of works is we uh run a bunch of these sort of we if you have a big token Supply say you have 10,000 tokens you split them up into like 100 different sub auctions so you're selling you know 100 tokens per uh block or sort of per period we uh put those tokens into the pool or sort of the hook itself puts the tokens into the pool the whatap before pool and it looks at like all the buyers and sellers coming into that pool over that period And if we had more buyers than we had sellers or we had like a then we increase the price for the next

period if we had fewer buyers than we expected we decrease the price for the next period And so what it's doing is period by period it has this Target price and this target uh increase in price if it doesn't reach it it says like oh okay then we didn't have enough buyers we're selling it too high and so it'll decrease the token price that it will it's offering for the next period And I then continues to do this over and over and over again as like and and it attempts to reach a specific price at the end in a very smooth way um and that's done all inside the hook it's done all on chain users don't have to do anything it all executes inside the hook uh and that's really valuable because uh users or who

are swappers they don't see any of this all they do is they're swapping you know they're selling they're buying the token and we're keeping track of all this information inside the hook in sort of a cool way you can read in our white paper and period to period we're adjusting things slightly to get as much token value out as possible the the important part about this is that like you're minimizing the loss that your system takes period to period like what we're trying to do at Doppler is like we want to minimize the amount of losses that come to Mev and we want to maximize the value that we gain from that Mev and so in some sense like these Mev users are arbitraging they're setting the price uh everyone in the sort of Market is

fighting over uh what price to set the Doppler pool at and we're saying okay cool everyone's fought period to period they've come up with this price that must be right now how can we adjust base off that market information to update for the next period And so uh by limiting the amount you're going to lose to Arbitrage you and maximizing the value you get out of it you you have very very efficient system for pricing and you're using sort of the global market to price these assets uh through just buying and selling uh so you can sort of turn like Global demand for any asset into a price which is a a sort of like turning uh like how price Discovery has worked previously which is like a market maker or an underwriter prices

something instead what we're doing is we're letting every Market maker and every underwriter fight to set a price and then we're saying like thank you for your service uh we're going to go on and use that for our price that's very clever I uh for for listeners who might not be super aware of this Dynamic this is kind of like the sexex Arbitrage right where the assumption is that the the price of an asset like eth is actually set on binance uh and then like all of the amm pools that exist on something like ethereum which has 12C block times are stale and then essentially like a uni V3 pool is paying arbitrageur to move the price of uh eth back to whatever it is on binance and you know in extremely volatile periods there's not necessarily

a cap as the the only cap is how large the pool is and how far the price can move on a 12C window uh and sometimes that can be huge and that loss is generally referred to as lever what's very interesting about your design Austin which reminds me a little bit of 1559 actually um is how you you actually are using that same uh your arbitragers are still telling you they're giving you valuable Market input for the price of eth but you're limiting the loss by the amount of inventory that you're setting available right so it's just very elegant design actually it's it's sort of an EIP 1559 it's a and like it's an onchain auction it sort of does all these things because uh yeah you're just letting the market price these things and it's like why don't we let everyone fight over it instead of like having one

person who picks it and it's probably wrong aome I think Al like can can you unpack why this is like sniper protection baked in yeah so I think like uh there is a lot of benefits to doing this because if snipers believe the price is a certain price they they they I one of the core Primitives is that the the protocol moves against them so if like they move the price up a bunch instead of facilitating the trade on the other side uh they the protocol says okay thank you like I'm GNA close the door behind you uh and it consistently does not let you just liquidate for free

on the other side um and so what that does is it makes it extraordinarily risky to snipe you have to sort of believe like you have to have some valuation of the token some value that you believe the tokens at because it could go down from there uh and how and that's very valuable because you want to if you have sort of a static amm where you know the price starts here and the price you know ends here and people are buying and selling people can sell back instantly at any time and realize the G the the the sniping gains but what we're doing is we're saying like okay you move the price here we're going to move the amm price to here now there's no way to exit uh in a way that's like uh there's you can't be guaranteed to exit at a

better price and so we're taking a lot of the risk that like actually retail buyers are just routinely taking like they have this exact same risk we're giving some of that risk that retail buyers and we're giving it to the snipers we're saying like Okay if you can't just buy everything because the price might go down uh and if that's true you lose money uh and so it's not free anymore but in some sense like this is the same risk that retail buyers are taking every day like the price can go down they don't know uh and they're saying like I think this is going to go up I'm gonna buy it so they have some idea of the valuation or like the value of the the system in their head and so instead of like being the first person to buy and like that's who wins every

time it's the person who is best able to Value something and like if if they think this has value they buy it if they don't think it has value they sell it and like if someone's the best buyer like a programmatic buyer aren't they just the best you know like hedge fund like that's like a programmatic hedge fund at some point right like if you're able to look at an asset say this is what the value is and buy and sell that like that's actually just good that just means like you're just a good investor at that point and like if you're a good programmatic investor like more power to you in some sense uh but critically like they're good at pricing something they're not good at being first right and that's the that's the key difference yeah yeah totally and that that's actually providing a valuable service to

the market right is moving um moving the price to where it ought to be from you know a theoretical fundamental value perspective or whatever it is um I got one more question for you in terms of uh just the mechanism here and how it works and then I want to move on to why you know a little bit more about your decision to launch this as a a hook on V4 as opposed to launching it as a standalone deck you were alluding to it at the top of the episode but I just want to get into more of the specifics um can you just talk a little bit about the mechanism of the auction here so this is a uh Dutch auction so why outside of your time with Dan Robinson did you decide to use a Dutch auction versus um versus other options here and

then I'd be curious in terms of how you actually incorporate some of the information that um you know different like different buyers give you into the magnitude of how much you're actually going to move this Price Right like is there a you know if if the inventory gets snapped up in a certain period of time or like how do you actually determine the sort of magnitude of the price move or is that just a standardized thing that it goes up by you know X units yeah so it's actually like pretty interesting uh the reason we use a Dutch auction is because we if we don't have anything available to sell below a certain price users can't sell into us so we can't we have no notion of the price uh in some sense like the only notion that we have is that the price that people the current price we're

willing to to sell the asset at is too high uh so we have no idea what the actual price is we just Dutch auction down another Peg and say like okay our now users going to trade against us and if they don't we just continue to Dutch auction down the other side is how we set the price going up and what we do is we have this like very very long we have like a a We call we call it an upper slug but it's like a very concentrated position uh over like from Epoch like one Epoch to the next Epoch and then we have this really really long uh thin position above that price and so users can trade into this very thin liquidity section uh and we and and so that's like we set the prices purely based off of

where the users are trading into uh and this the sort of thin liquidity amount and that's like how the price goes up and so users can set like a max amount they want it to go up Epoch to Epoch uh or sorry like uh sub auction to sub auction I and they do that through like a parameterization in uh like that they give to the core contracts when it's initialized um but like in some sense like we don't really care about uh the the the price going up is actually like much easier than the price going down because you have some Market information uh when the price goes up because users are buying these things when no one buy not when not enough people buy you have no Market information so you just got to go down Unis swap Labs is rolling out the red carpet and launching a

$15.5 million bug Bounty this is the largest bug bounty in the entire history of crypto to anyone that can find a critical bug with the UN swap B4 protocol this bug Bounty aims to make it the most rigorously reviewed codebase ever deployed to ethereum now the Unis swap name is basically synonymous with security $2.4 trillion in cumulative volume has passed through Unis swap V2 and V3 without a single hack so Unis swap V4 is dedicated to bringing that same level of security and transparency to the V4 protocol so if you want more information or eligibility or scope or Rewards or payout or any of that good stuff there is a link in the bottom of the show notes I highly recommend that

you stop listening right now go to the show notes click the link head over and tell them that I sent you start earning money today this episode has brought to you You by Moro Moro is the first and only dii protocol coinbase has integrated directly into their main app giving millions of users access to borrow against their Bitcoin on coinbase just as web 2 companies like Google Amazon and meta were built on internet protocols the largest financial companies of the future such as coinbase will build on decentralized protocols like Moro whether you're an individual fund fintech or institution Moro is for you follow the link in today's show notes to try Moro today all right I want to I want to get your take on why you know what what was um behind your decision to launch this as a V4 hook and

for listeners who might not be aware atin I knew you were uh very instrumental in terms of Designing uh V4 yourself unof V4 and so just wanted to get a sense of the benefit uh maybe the pros and cons of launching as a hook versus a standalone am yeah I think the benefit of like Unis swap V4 for us specifically was the ability to uh build on top of like a very secure layer like I think people every day could build maybe a slightly better uh thing or like every application could build a slightly better chain for themselves than ethereum or salana but like it's really really hard to do that uh and so in some sense like we use a system that's like extremely well tested it has a huge bug

Bounty it's been audit dat like five or six times and we have to do so much less internally uh to achieve the same outcome and so for us like we built Doppler Lear in three months uh and we think that like it would take year or so to build on top of its own customized amm and it would probably be less secure it would take a ton more audit time it would you take a bunch more testing and so we're Outsourcing a lot of these fundamental trading I that we want to do like the fundamental actions that Unis swap gives us to the core contracts and we sort of just like let users trust that instead and another reason we did this is like uh to utilize our contracts

you only have to trust that Unis swap V4 works if you're buying and selling you just have to trust that and we think that's a much better tradeoff uh for users to only trust the core Unis swap contracts because like they're very well a they're much better audited than ours like you know we spent a lot of money on really good audits but they spent a lot more uh and like they have a much larger bug Bounty and so it's like we can use their security budget is our security budget um to go faster isn't isn't there one other the reason also which is that you know un swap has a lot of Integrations the protocol has a lot of Integrations right and so like in building on top of it right you all the assets that launch with Doppler because they're you're using these offc contracts like they're

going to be discoverable by the router and so and you know any anyone that's integrating the core protocol is going to see those assets right when they launch see those pools and be able to you know distribute that liquidity everywhere yeah exactly so like in in our current uh like specs that we have like the current interface we have designed the moment you click create on a token on Doppler uh you can uh open up a tab to the Unis swap interface and trade it immediately uh and so it's like there is no to Unis swap to every single integrator with Unis swap it just looks like a Unis swap pool uh because it is it is just Unis swap pool and so it's like these Integrations are their Integrations are our Integrations I would just I would just diff that versus like you know for

example on Bas you have virtuals right and virtuals is a platform that's issuing a lot of tokens on on Base today um and and somewhere to pump fund like they have um they have their own kind of curve um their own pools uh for these newly issued assets right and and so the result of of them building it themselves is number one like the team has to build and maintain all that like they've had you know bugs that they've had to fix and so on um but but also like all those tokens like are not discoverable anywhere else tokens are traded you have to go to virtuals website to trade them and so so like dopper kind of solves all these problems it's like the you know the the safety problem the you know the developer friction of building your own thing and Discovery problem like you

launch on top or you're everywhere uni swap is so uh and the other thing too that this made me think about is just time to Market here like however long it would have taken you to build this deck Standalone uh I think Austin you you were mentioning when we were talking before could have been anywhere from a year and a half to and you maybe cut that time um in a third the other thing too is just even even just from my understanding the uh the access to good Auditors is just more bottlenecked uh than it's ever been also extremely expensive um so there's a there's a very real cost here but there's also just a very real possibility that you might not be able to get the you know the individual that you want right at some of these um security firms so just the

ability to bootstrap off that is super important um one question maybe is like a little bit of um I don't know if you view this as a drawback but the the drawback of the integration point which is point well taken is you also maybe lose the Rel the direct relationship with your user right like if people are uh you get to plug immediately into Unis swap uh and their you know order flow Etc and people just think they're trading on another Unis swap pool maybe the drawback of that is that people just think they're trading on Unis Swap and so that you become a component that they could just swap out so you know how how do you think about the relationship with the user uh here at all yeah I think like I in some sense like this is a problem that all tokens have like they

uh when they're issued and they're working on top of Unis swap like I would say that users have internalized the differences of like between the exchange and the token itself I but I do think that like at the end of the day uni the Unis swap sort of trading brings the token integrator it brings the token and it It ultimately brings the dopper protocol a lot of value and so I think that like losing that customer potentially it's not as impactful as it's like just like being everywhere and being sort of like a core primitive I would say that like like people don't think about like for UNIS swap they're not saying like oh you're just ethereum but like at the end of the day they're interacting with ethereum right like people don't think of like

just pump as salana it's in some sense like they they internalize there's a difference between like the to places the tokens are being issued and like the platform they're being built on and so uh I think that like people will understand that very deeply but like they'll and they'll see like the issuance versus the trading of those things yeah I I think it's important to distinguish like going back to like ear in their conversation I was I was drawing the distinction between issuance and exchange and they're kind of like two different user personas right The Exchange component is is is really talking about secondary markets and issuance we're talking about primary markets and there's a different user Persona there which is the asset issuer is is an important part of asset issuance whereas like exchange the asset issuer is not necessarily there so um I

think Unis Swap and and all the places Unis swap is integrated they serve the the you know the the investor The Exchange the person who's using Unis swap for exchange but they don't currently serve the issuer and and doler serves the issuer by giving them all these tools and when I when I say issuer I should be more specific like what what do I actually mean so it could be somebody launching a meme coin um directly on well you know there's this product pure markets it's going to build on top of Doppler right and and you could do meme coins there and and so it could be some you know a Creator launching a mem coin it could also be an an inter like a a platform like virtuals right like something like virtuals could use Doppler and virtuals and pump they they solve a a very important problem

for users which is Discovery like there there's curation that happens on on the platform like they have a feed right like so you can kind of see what's going on and and so I I would just see this as sort of like unbundling different jobs to be done right there's there's always going to be um like what Doppler introduces is a a tool that solves a you know does a job for asset issuers it makes their you know pricing more efficient more resistant to to to snipers um then on top of that you're GNA have interfaces and and they solve the discovery problem in primary you know primary markets and then you have secondary markets um and and that's the you unisoft solves that problem very well right where wherever unisoft is integrated you can trade that token um so there's kind of three different

personas to to to solve for here yeah and maybe we could talk a little bit we we just touched on this I believe at the top of the episode but Jesse you just mentioned pure markets which is the interface that you're building Austin can you just describe a little bit about what pure markets is and where it fits into your vision yeah so it's sort of our uh the first product that's going to be built on top of Doppler uh it's by our team it's mostly just to be a place and a home for tokens uh Doppler tokens specifically to explore them but also to swap them uh and to create them on uh all the chains that doppler's deployed on and it's also allows swapping uh for any user so like a very quick very fast experience for issuers who or sort of

like traders who just want like a system that works very quickly gets them a route for any token they want uh that's built on top of Unis swap uh and so we're really focused on like just like a quick easy user experience it's very simple uh and this is like very just like turn your brain off and buy because I think like that's like at the end of the day users don't want to think about all these things they just want like to get the action they want uh and so we're focused on like having a home and having a sort of like a shelling point for all Doppler tokens that like even if they're issued off of the pure markets platform they'll show up on the Doppler interface because it's like at the end of the day we just want to get as much flow into

the underlying tokens that are uh are launched on the protocol uh and be sort of like a a hub or a shelling point for issuance we sort of hope that pure markets is like the first place that uh people can do it but at the same time like even when people build other protocols or other ISS or other interfaces they still benefit from having like the pure markets interface to bring them flow okay um so any closing uh comments on P Market stopler or anything like that I want to just close by just asking you guys about like what you find interesting in terms of Trends in uh dex's and but yeah any closing statements on um or we can maybe hoping I don't know I

I don't think we have like anything specific but what do you think Jeff um well so I don't know when this episode's gonna come out but um when does it launch a week one week from today okay perfect yeah so we're hoping to launch February 10th uh will is the hopeful launch day uh for both Doppler and for piure um and so that will be shortly after this episode comes out I guess uh but uh really excited for that and if you want to sort of follow along you can follow me on Twitter or follow uh the pure the weststone Twitter we'll be tweeting a lot about like these things as they come out awesome all right guys very exciting uh very soon also so that'll be very cool um all right so uh maybe just in closing here

like I would love to get a sense um Austin as one of the Premier Dex designers in in crypto like what are some of the trends that you are looking at like you know I mean we talked a little bit um offline about fluid and sort of this combination of lending and dexes under one protocol and you know maximizing for Capital efficiency there anything else you're kind of looking at is inspiration you think this is a cool experiment or anything like that yeah I think like Cella is obviously very interesting using like these offchain auctions uh love their team I think the bunny team uh with z r has done a really great job but I think just like sort of past Unis swap uh there's a lot of sort of modular dexes that are coming out like the valantis team has been doing a

very interesting job thinking about like a pure uh uh modular decks and I think like the fluid team has done a really cool job of like how do we combine two Primitives and one sort of get a better experi like they sort of combine two Primitives and get a better experience than each of them uh apart I think we're going to see more and more things like that uh especially built on like uh ethereum where it's like people building these connecting two things that haven't been connected together and they're more efficient when they're sort of built into each other I think that's like a very big benefit of the modular design is that like it's easy to hook things up together uh and so I sort of suspect like that will be a big thing but I I I think like one of the things we're going

to see enable by modularity is a lot of smaller changes over time uh like you know Unis swap V2 to V3 to V4 they all took like two to three years to get the next design of the decks out I think on like V4 and these modular dexes we're going to see like you know monthly updates or like bi-weekly updates where it's like these little small changes and by the time like you would normally see like a V5 be announced like it's function already out in some sense it's just like a culmination of all the little improvements that have been made over time and I think like that is the the future is like instead of like just having to wait two years and then trying to guess what will be important in those two years you're going see a lot more of

people building uh Innovations uh much closer to launch much closer to the tip and sort of like those Innovations will stack up on top of each other and I think I think we'll functionally see Unis swap V5 on top of Unis swap V4 uh and it'll be sort of just like a culmination of all the cool features people have done and then uh it'll be a lot easier to build a V5 because it's just sort of like uh you know building like the things that already been built for V4 and then maybe um Jesse in closing for you here a question is so maybe less on the deck side of things but on the asset issuance side of things you know we've seen just the sheer amount of assets that are being issued on chain today has overwhelmed definitely the Sexes of the world and I'm very curious

you know what you think about just in terms of Trends there like whether or not that's sustainable and then the other Trend I'd be curious to get your perspective on is this idea of sort of progressive decentralization and when teams should um launch tokens within their life cycle right it's kind of Chang over the years from you wait until you have something very built out and then you launch a token to launch a token and then kind of build the the product afterwards yeah totally so yeah just just to put numbers on I think like last last I check the number of tokens being launched weekly is something like I think it's like 400 to 500,000 tokens are being launched every single week now pump is making up a large chunk of that um and that's up like 20x um from like a year ago or something and it's it's you

know it's only going to that's only going to continue in my view um and now again today it's it's mostly meme coins um but that that's starting to change like I think I think virtuals is probably the best known example for people like following the The Meta around AI agents right these are these are arguably meem coins but they're but they're attempting to be more than that right like they're they m coins associated with an agent that is is prospectively going to do something whether it's like social media influencing or something on chain um and so you know five five years ago I wrote this piece on um you know about Progressive decentralization basically recommended that that you know projects take this approach of you know first building a product finding product

Market fit and and and only after you found product Market fit launching a token um to distribute ownership of that product or or protocol to the community um and you know I think that was inspired it's important to note like this came after icos right so iOS in 2017 did did the exact opposite of this where it was like you started with a white paper and and launch a token and sold a token and you had no product um and and very often you never got a product because the you know the the people selling the token just went like went off into the sunset um but but um in other cases you did get a product and turned out nobody wanted that product to begin with and and and the token went to zero so the the progressive decentralization Playbook like kind of

you know suggested hey like do do the traditional sort thing build the product people want find product Market fit then use tokens as a way to grow the product um by the economics of of that product with with the users who are contributing to it every day um and I think that Playbook still makes a ton of sense and and you know generally is is like good advice for Founders building the space that said um you know I I do I think there's a lot of Merit to bringing the token forward earlier into into the life of a project um because it it has this really powerful effect of getting users excited about what you're building and and and incentivizing them to contribute so I've been kind of tossing around this idea of you know Progressive utility um

where you you you you kind of bring the token forward in the life cycle of the project and you you progressively add more and more utility to the Token over the time over time including you know functional decentralization I think a really good example of this is hyper liquid so so hyper liquid did build a product people want and they got you know product Market fit but they they launched a token like relatively early uh early on right like they have ambition to be an L1 they're pretty far from being a true L1 today um but yet they have a token so so so I think like you know they wouldn't necessarily meet the definition of sufficiently decentralized as compared with most blockchains um but but yet they have a token and I think that that was smart of them to do because it really incentivized people to use the

product and and two build in the ecosystem um and um and and and so what I've been kind of um mulling around this is still like kind of Half Baked to be honest is that where it makes sense um to launch a token ear or maybe when when you're building a platform where you need or you want third parties um to to build on top of that platform and and specifically like build their own businesses on top um where where your token um can serve as the sort of like liquidity um reserve for for the tokens that that get to Point on top so virtuals is is a good example of of what I'm describing here hyper liquid may may be another um but with virtuals you have the virtuals token it also launched in kind of in tandem with the product itself um and the product enables people

to Launch their own tokens build their own businesses um the virtuals token serves as a liquidity pair for all the tokens that that launch on top um so you know the idea here is that like by build by pulling the token forward earlier into the life cycle of the product um you you you create an incentive for people to build on top and and engage with the product it can help you find product Market fit in some select cases um and it can have some early utility which out of the gate can just be liquidity for all the all the tokens that e system and then you can progressively add more and more utility like you know having users stake the token doing rev share and and so on um so zooming out in the current administrative you know regime that

we're under now I I think there's more room to experiment with with with this Progressive decentralization you know I think made sense in in 2020 and and probably for the four years thereafter because it got that Playbook got you to a point of sufficient decentralization which was really the only you know viable way to launch a token from a compliance standpoint I think Progressive utility may be um you know fertile ground for experimentation in this Administration where where there seems to be more flexibility on um you know on the timeline to decentralization basically um so I think so like what I conclude by saying I know that was a long rant is we're going to see a lot more tokens we're already seeing it I think it's

going to go exponential from here um and it's not just going to be mem coins it's going to be it's going to be real projects that are trying to build um you know real utility and and so in order for that to happen we need to get issuance right so that users don't get get sniped and and and burnt on the things that they actually want to use yeah and you know what one thing that I would love to see as well is and it feels like we're further along than we were even 12 or 18 months ago uh is just price Discovery happening on chain and then staying on chain I would argue it's starting to happen on chain actually like the whole Trump meme coin launch that absolutely happened on chain it was a big win for salana you saw huge uh in

like stable coin uh inflows into the ecosystem you saw I think it was like 40 billion of volume it's like one tenth of what NASDAQ does uh in a day and um yeah it would just be great I think eventually some of that ends up migrating onto sex's so you know it would be cool to just think about how we can um you know how we can keep that and I think Doppler will be a big part of that in solving frictions for asset issuers and then just keeping liquidity on chain I I think the way that just to respond to that really quick I think um you know you're you're starting to see coinbase you mentioned a few times like Brian was tweeting about you know we need we need to change our listing process but you're also starting to see them just integrate D5 protocols

directly to the coinbase.com app in a really meaningful way right like they did this with Moro um so you can you can like use Moro to borrow against your Bitcoin and for coinbase.com users it's completely abstracted like you don't need to know that it's on chain it's it's just it just works um so if I had to guess like I think the way that you know price Discovery stays on chain is is you know coinbase stops list in assets they just integrate dexas um and you know to their core product and and and users of coinbase.com don't know or need to care about that um and that's you know that's how the volume just stays there is it never leaves like there's no other place for it to go and the moro uh coinbase integration is first of all such a win for both teams

but I also love Moro and uh we'll always Ro for them so but it's cool it's like the def5 mullet right that we've been talking about for many years so uh in practice guys both of you have been uh super generous with your time um if folks want to find out more about the work that both you are doing I guess Austin a little bit more specifically with you with the launch coming up of uh Doppler but where can folks kind of follow along more granularly and find out but same question to you Jesse if people want to find out about the work that you're doing at Varian or read any of your blog post or anything like that what's the best way to to do that yeah I guess I'm I'm Austin Adams 10 at Twitter and then our wet our the wetstone Twitter is wetstone

docc uh and yeah you can see me yapping there I love yapping on my Twitter so you get to hear all my thoughts directly from my brain nice yeah and yeah all all of um all my thinking is at um variant. fund and Jesse wen.com and uh Twitter I won't try uh you can look me up war warcast is easy it's just Jesse on workast it's a good one sweet all right guys well I really appreciate uh both your time here congratulations Austin again on everything you're building and uh yeah I'll have to do this again sometime soon guys sounds good all right thanks for having us [Music]