Every Brand Will Have A Web3 Strategy | Camilla McFarland, Avery Akkineni

Transcript

when um when a consumer a customer a buyer even just a loyal fan can co-own something with the brand you know the brand owns the IP and the brand name and the consumer owns the asset it becomes like the most powerful Global affiliate program that has ever existed all right everyone welcome back to another episode of Empire really excited to be joined by two special guests we've got Camilla uh coming from serotonin and mojito we've got Avery uh president of Vayner three a Vayner X company well welcome Camilla and Avery excited to have you guys here so excited to be here thank you for having us so the backstory of this episode um a couple of months ago sat down with Adam brodman from Forum three and he was

I kind of red pilled me on basically Brands coming into crypto coming into web3 and I think I've had this like really biased lens from someone who kind of got scarred by the like 2016-2017 like Enterprise blockchain days where whenever I see like a big brand coming into crypto I immediately was kind of turned off by it because because of those days five years ago and I think this episode I really just want to make it like I I would like to kind of dive a little deeper down the rabbit hole of like Brands exploring web3 Avery who approached this from a very much like have helped a lot of web 2 companies um now come like come into web3 Camilla maybe like the other side of this which is you started very very very crypto native and have now started to work with some of the web 2 companies I think

maybe a helpful place to go would actually be to Avery I really want to hear like your definition of how you think about just like web 3 in general like what is web3 and maybe how is it different from crypto uh because I'd just be very curious about how you think about that and then we can go deeper into the rabbit hole amazing um so I'm really excited for this discussion and even when we were talking about like what we should discuss here I think Camilla and I have a little bit of different perspectives sort of shades of the same like long-term ethos but probably approaching this from two different ways so for context um listeners I run a company um which is a web 3 consultancy that's part of um a large sort of Enterprise agency we do everything from Snapchat ad it's just

Super Bowls to you know nft programs and crypto advisory all undersorted this vaynerx umbrella and for the last 13 years vaynermedia which is the core business um within Vayner acts has been helping our client Partners navigate ways to connect with their consumers so we're obsessed with what matters to Consumers and helping Brands find relevance and sometimes that means through of free initiative sometimes that means through you know an Instagram ad or a tick tock or you know a new CRM strategy or an influencer program or a million other things we created vayner3 specifically to help advise our partners on web3 and on this sort of next iteration of the internet and not to correct you you know but actually we don't advise web 2

companies we advise Enterprises the vast majority of our company Partners have been around for way before the internet we talk about someone like a Johnny Walker or a Budweiser or Pepsi these were all founded in you know the early 19th century um so our brand Partners have been around for a long time most of the time sometimes we work with sort of new and emerging businesses like a coinbase who obviously hasn't been around for centuries um but most of the time we're working with Enterprises who have established their brands over um Generations over centuries and we help them do what's right for growing their business um and a lot of times that includes what three and when we were creating this you know Enterprise wanted to hire in a lot of web 3 natives

to really teach us the way the sort of the ropes um I come from being like an Enterprise brand marketer um spent a lot of time at Target and at Google before joining Vayner on the brand side um and then you know we work with some of the biggest companies in the world on their marketing initiatives thinking like 100 million dollar budgets you know Super Bowl ads um really like full funnel capability building um and I got really interested in web3 uh during the pandemic um I you know I've been investing in crypto for a long time but very passively like I had a coinbase but I actually had lost the password for like multiple years but then I found it I had to like do the passport thing and like I was like oh wow that's a nice surprise um okay like I guess I have something to

to start with as I got into nfts and I think the reason that you know I was really interested in nft specifically and um of course Gary uh vaynerchuk was as well is we really understand brand building and like how to build a community and how to build a business and nfts I think because of potentially the visual aspect the community aspect that made a lot more sense to us than like altcoins and crypto so we went a little bit more into this nft realm and of course Gary launched the V friends project in May of 2021 which was a huge learning experience for us and we never like to sort of sell something that we haven't really been super Hands-On with and that gave us um that understanding of you know the

ethereum blockchain how this works a lot of the technical testing that you know you don't have if you're like an outsider or sort of like complete consultant so very interested in nfts as we launched the company a lot of our client Partners were like what are you all doing over here we're interested in this and they wanted to learn I think the first thing people come to us um and ask about is like how do I learn about what this is and like why it matters and at vayner3 we take a more expansive sort of view on what web3 is we really see web3 as the next era of connected consumer behavior on the internet and I think there are a few things sort of Define this first being a digital first reality for consumers at that sort of Confluence of cultural

relevance and Technology empowered by an ethos of co-creation web3 is creating this more immersive personalized and ownable internet and I think probably this more expansive view um is is a little bit different than some what some of the purists would say because we think it includes blockchain but it also includes Advanced Computing and it also includes immersive realities because the more time people spend looking at what's actually driving you know tens of millions of users into Roblox it's the same thing that's driving people into nfts it's Community it's co-creation it's this sort of digital first reality for us we see a lot of these things kind of coming together um instead of being sort of two parallel

worlds so that is how we Define it at vayner3 and that's kind of what we work on with our Enterprise partners yeah it's um it's funny there's a lot in there you know my background um asiano said is definitely first of all thrilled to be here by the way um as they say long time listener first time caller um and know both of you you know from over the years so really fun to get together and chat um you know my my background coming up through the web 3 world and and that meaning sort of one of my first four is I think it was actually one of the same moments you know that you and I through Amanda Cafe got really uh red pilled into the industry um but it was uh working initially for a company called consensus where we help

bring to Market some of the core ethereum tooling and grow you know metamask's first million users and some of the the tools and it was the same era where you know the application layer hadn't really been developed for blockchain yet and there's this amazing use case that could unlock things but no one really knew you know what that would be and where would be sort of um the killer application for mainstream understanding not to mention adoption and the first thing really was currency but people didn't really really necessarily care to own their currency outside of you know the use case in developing nations and remittances um and so then when nfgs came around and big Brands started to embrace the space and even some of the crypto native uh web3 Native brands that have been built in this space

um what you can do when you actually own a digital thing for kind of the first time ever which is what blockchain allows gets really exciting for Global Brands um because as Avery was saying it just sort of changes the relationship between brand and consumer in a whole new like kind of reimagining the DTC direct to Consumer Playbook when um when a consumer a customer a buyer even just a loyal fan can co-own something with the brand you know the brand owns the IP and the brand name and the consumer owns the asset it becomes like the most powerful Global affiliate program that has ever existed because you have this sort of uh network of like influencers that are also owners and

able to sort of um you know benefit and whatever the upside of them owning that asset is whether it's taking it with them across the internet potential you know speculative value I think we're moving ways away from that the ability to collaborate more directly um and so for your definition of web three I totally agree with it and sometimes it kind of gets leaked in with people's definition of the metaverse these days which I think as you were saying Avery's like a totally different thing like there's a great um Harvard or business school podcast about the metaverse and they don't even mention web 3 Once because it really is just the combination of your digital life together in a more immersive way where the platform walls kind of come down but what web3 is is like that ownership

layer to the metaverse and therefore that sort of interoperable uh layer that sits across all of it okay so I want to make sure so really really good intros there I'd say one thing that I want to make sure we do with this conversation is like I think there are a lot of uh case studies that you read or like Twitter threads and it's like nfts allow you to own you know we're moving to an ownership economy we're moving to like uh this like digital first world and I want to make sure we get like a little more Hands-On than that and so Avery one thing I'd ask you is uh you know my conversation with Adam one of my takeaways was all right these are basically just loyalty programs on steroids this is just like a 10x better loyalty program Camilla you just

mentioned like uh affiliate programs like this is basically just like a super powered affiliate program Avery maybe I'd ask you to dig into in your conversations with Brands like why are they considering this strategy is it to reach a younger user base is it to try to go more digitally native is it like look let's just test this out and like see what kind of happens here I'd love to hear maybe like take us into these conversations a little bit Yeah so I think the motivating factor um and I'll say the motivating factor in 2021 was like okay I want to do something that gets headlines or I want to do something that I can monetize the motivating factor in 2023 is much more I want to be connected to the next generation of consumers and I want to understand this technology and how I can potentially

participate in how I can understand like where this is going future of the internet is like incredibly important and I think from uh you know like everything that you read in any consumer study is like digital first reality matters more and more like kids today want Roblox instead of uh like physical toys like digital first reality is here and it's like certainly here for Gen Alpha web3 I think is is sort of the culmination of all of that and probably a contrary point to Camilla I don't think it's all only on blockchain um I think we're gonna see some centralized entities play in this space as well because there's a lot of barriers um when we're only like limiting ourselves just to blockchain uh so when and I think blockchain will be a huge

part of it I think it's super important but it's not all of it um from from our perspective um what interest Brands though is consumers are here younger consumers are here and the internet has like fundamentally changed a lot of their businesses like many times over over the past 20 years and they realize like okay great if this next iteration of the internet I need to be prepared so many major cpg companies financial services companies were really caught off entertainment companies were really caught off guard by um the you know massive changes that social media first like websites and then social media enabled so they're like okay I need to understand this I think a lot of them are really looking at this as like almost an insurance policy to make sure that they're connected with that next generation of consumers um I think where uh brands in 2023 are

looking is they want to make sure they don't get left behind they want to understand like where can where consumers are engaging how they want to engage and they want to sort of build with them um every you know sort of piece of consumer data from these sort of 20 and under folks um they want a more co-created internet and they want to participate and have a more direct relationship with Brands sometimes that's manifesting in the way of like an ownable asset but a lot of times it's more like you know giving product feedback being brought into that having that more direct relationship one-to-one relationship of sort of community building so I think that's driving in a lot of Brands um the second part uh that I think is is important is how they create new business models

um and I want to make sure that I'm clear that this is far beyond just selling nfts um figuring out ways to monetize their digital presence and digital assets and connect with consumers in these new ways is also super important because people are spending less time in the more sort of traditional experiential places so I think connecting with consumers and driving their business forward in a digital first reality are the two biggest like driving driving factors and then throw in like a hint of fomo of like what is that what is Nike in right get the headline Mikey just did it you know we gotta do it too yeah exactly there's a little bit of that for sure yeah I I definitely agree with that I think we're also seeing like a lot of these consumer brands are about like 18

months in their education Journey now because it kind of popped on people's radar like two years ago maybe with some of the success of some people that came in and as they've said like that additional I cannot that first primary initial economic incentive of like oh my gosh this is essentially a generation of like the crypto Nuvo reach that are spending how much per wallet on these tokens and there was sort of that validating aspect for the web3 community when big Brands like Adidas and others came into the space and you can kind of tell from their if you were to do like a diagnosis of their successful Playbook that they were really going after the web 3 native crowd with those launches you know it was all Freddy it is for example it was the only on-chain experience um they partnered with like g-money and

Punk's Comics so they were really going after that like native core crowd and I think now with the maturity of education and doing some experimental projects as if you mentioned that they've done like dipped a toen maybe launched a project maybe it's a free claimable like they kind of get it a little bit more now and so I think the two biggest examples of what we'll see in the next couple years are like Nike and Starbucks where they're not just um selling nft products they're building a web 3 enabled consumer Community platform and so the first thing you do when you get to Nike's platform for example is you mint you're free dot swoosh ens and so that's Nike getting

like their own product in form of nft into the hands like seeding their token Community even Beyond selling a digital product and then you guys start to get into sort of those new business models that Avery spoke about which is like bringing those nft seated Community member into like co-collaborating on a potential future launch or co-designing a piece of the product line where they then get to share in things like you know Revenue loyalty splits um and cool things that sort of never existed before and so that's after years of like Nike and Starbucks really really exploring this technology playing with it understanding what it looks like and I think a lot more brands that have sort of dipped a

toe in that we'll see a lot of um you know still newcomers but also return brands that really get it now and get what this can be other than just a new digital product line although that's still going to be very important but there's so much more you can do with it yeah I agree with that um I think what I would probably like build is Nike and Starbucks are two of like the most what the biggest and like most loved consumer Brands like there are very few uh consumer Brands like you're gonna download an app to have on your phone and Nike and Starbucks are are those right like you're not going to do that for your like favorite it like sparkling water brands that's just like isn't real right um yeah exactly sandfall Greenhouse he's got his San Pellegrino uh mobile they just got the bubbles right

um I'm a huge sparkling like I'm a massive sparkling water consumer and I wouldn't download now for that right but um uh I think that for some really top tier Brands that's going to be a reality for but for a lot of them um and you all remember or many of your listeners might remember um the boom of like when every company had to have an app and like then there was like an app for like every little thing it's like this is the hair scrunchie app and then it kind of was like why does everyone need an app um I think the sort of participation is probably going to be more likely for like the vast majority of Brands is participating in an environment where people are already spending their time one of the biggest um you know challenges I think we have with these like on-chain experiences is

it's a small group of like web3 native power users that isn't really growing very quickly so if you're a brand who's trying to reach billions of people you need to develop experiences that billions of people can actually participate in and um while I think there was like a lot of early success including a lot of our our the work that we did with different brands in sort of targeting these web3 native um communities I don't think that that's going to be the method that most brands sort of lean into in the future outside of like luxury and scarcity like that can make sense and like there is that crypto Nuvo reached crowd and there are a few hundred thousand of them um so it could be interesting for sort of small Pilots I think the future will far more be in the direction of building

something that you know millions of users can experience simultaneously and can enjoy um and you know I think Nike's done a great job with DOT swoosh but they've also done a great job with Nike land in Roblox where they've had you know 100 million users which is just like a scale that would be unfathomable for something like dust we should this stage so I think sort of seeing those strategies as one um is is kind of interesting to think about how they're appealing to this sort of younger generation of consumers in immersive digital experiences and digital products as they also build this sort of web3 native experience which is aimed at people who are either crypto native or who are open to to being sort of onboarded through nikes.swish identity product yeah and

you know I know every night I just mainly playing ping pong if you have another question but to that point actually and this is what I would love to maybe dive into now or at a later point when we get into more of the tech side but I think that's actually where we sometimes differ in our opinions is that I actually do think ownership really matters of these assets and so the blockchain element is crucial while like the consumer Behavior and the billions what is it three billion and 5 billion respectively for like four uh for Roblox and and and fortnite it's very real that consumer habits there and that generation just kind of gets like having a digital thing but they don't own that right that's in a Walled Garden within the platform and they can't really take it with their with them anywhere they go

um and so I agree you know Nike's in Starbucks Starbucks is one of the biggest loyalty programs in the world already that they're able to weave web3 into and Nike as a beloved consumer brand but I think that this model actually unlocks the whole like thousand true fans model um and I don't think that we will need to download an app for every brand that we engage with maybe if it's a more Dynamic consumer uh Community platform like Nike's buildings for sure because there's other experiences there but even just um sort of again for the whoever it may be the Pellegrino fans are like yeah no I know you're a big fret again fan like seeding that loyal Community just with a token whether it's an earnable or a free giveaway or a purchased nft then the

fact that you can take that with you everywhere you go I think um like interoperability is essentially going to become synonymous with digital ownership because bringing that like data backpack with you of all the things you own across different programs will just seem so obvious in retrospect and so someone can buy something now um that's you know either in a um brand custodial wallet or that's off chain and kind of experience digital ownership for the first time but the actual benefits of it like bringing it with you wherever you go and seeing unlocks other places the collaboration opportunities available like that's the real killer app here because otherwise you don't really need

crypto you don't really need blockchain for it to own something does that mean in some way like worry Brands because like I think of uh Airline credits right which is terrible right an airline ticket and of itself like you want to make changes like you if you want to use United points I guess you can have the United American Express card and then you can they have certain relationship with some Brands but they never want you to actually leave their ecosystem and when you talk about portability like I agree with you from a consumer standpoint we would all love for our points to be redeemable everywhere anywhere but that's not the case um and so I'm curious in these conversations with Brands like do they see these this as a threat where as soon

as you open the consumer's eyes to this ownership and portability does that somehow worry them or do they just accept exactly that that's what I'm trying to get at I've seen it if I take I've seen it uh I don't think I've heard anyone see it as a threat because then it only gets more exciting on how you can evangelize the brand in other places so like sometimes the example I use when I sort of explain this to my parents or something it's like imagine going to a Yankees game at Yankee Stadium and buying a Yankees baseball hat um but you can only wear it in the stadium so like you come inside everyone sees your fan but like of course you are that's why you're there you might get a

discount for having that hat or buying that hat like a discount on fries or something in the stadium within the Yankees universe but you can't like wear when you go travel to Nairobi and get that you know other Yankees fan oh my gosh you're also a Yankees fan connection that you bring it to another place with you when you go there or like let's say Chipotle is having a free giveaway free burrito to anyone that walks into their store with a Yankees hat because they love Yankees fans and they love the Yankees um like that's great but again you can't take that hat out of Yankee Stadium so you can't even even like bring it to with you to Chipotle to get that benefit and that's kind of the cool part like that brand collaboration moment where you really do need to sort of prove like

on-chain ownership of whatever that thing might be um whether you've earned it or interacted in any way with the brand where you've sort of gotten that that that token um is sort of that's sort of the the cool part of the unlock right now the benefit is really just to be able to kind of sell it on secondary markets and speculated on it and that's when people when they buy their first nft like the Reddit nft onboarding experience I think was so brilliant because they put a little they abstracted away a little bit of that like private Key Management really janky user experience at the moment but then if you wanted to take advantage of parts of it being an actual blockchain based asset like the composability to bring it into you know an open c a secondary market then you

would take that step and right now that's kind of the only real driving incentive for for consumers to do but once the other experiences get exciting and you have to sort of have that thing in in a wallet that's yours and controlled by you then I think we start to see consumers starting to care about actual digital digital ownership in a way that they don't necessarily think they have to today yeah CT um I think that's a it's a really good question um and I think what you're getting at is sort of the incentive right I think brands are always always down to do collaborations like we do collaborations all the time of physical products you know creates cultural relevance it's actually good for both parties and like almost all cases so I think everybody gets that collaboration and um as

Camilla's talking about having um you know doing an nft that allows you to have a customized experience on a website or a customized discount like that's pretty amazing and I think in the future that's really interesting but these are very theoretical use cases right now um or they're just such a tiny size that it's not um it's not so meaningful yet um I think that's the bigger question and pushback um and like consideration is like this is amazing for 2 000 people but I'm trying to reach 2 billion people Avery so I don't know if this is where we should be investing you know like how can we make this a bigger uh impact a greater number of consumers is like more of the challenge um I don't think they uh I think there's opportunities when they would want to do

it so it's collaborative and can be a one plus one equals 11 but probably not in all cases um Camille called out Reddit so I'll give a shout out um you know some of the stuff that we've done with Reddit um has been published like for example the ABCs of nfts I think that's a really interesting experience that um is is in my opinion the best brand um nft sort of program that's been built to date because it has sort of tiers of free of Engagement based of commercial based um and it was well received by the fans so if you actually like read on Reddit like you know consumer research um their fans did not want nfts people use Reddit where like I hate nfts please don't you know give me this um but they love snooze and they love um interacting with other redditors and

their their platform is actually like very suited for like web3 because it is sort of this co-created community um that is like the ethos of Reddit and of course from you know a leadership perspective we have folks like Alexis who are really into this web3 ecosystem so I think they created something that was engaging to their core consumers and that I think really matters because when I look at a lot of the brand programs that have been launched to date this all the successful ones have been targeted towards what three Natives and then they've been successful with what three natives um or varying degrees of successful with web3 natives I loved that Reddit actually did something that was you know built for their Community um to do something interesting the

reality is very few people in their Community are moving those assets off of Reddit yet but to Camilla's point they're building something where they can do that in the future and I think that is really interesting because they're doing something that's interesting for their consumers today while building this um opportunity to move into interesting things in the future so look out for for more potential collaborations and stuff there because I think Reddit is uh reddit's doing a lot of things right I guess for Brands listening I'd love if you could share more of the findings like in terms of Engagement retention I mean these are things that every brand cares about you know lifetime value the customer like did it meaningfully increase uh or what were some of the other kind of metrics

that the Reddit team or the pilot kind of um showed I don't think that they've shared any of that data publicly um at least that I've seen um outside of the number of unique wallets created which anyone can see sits on polygon I think it's over 6 million um at this point is six million new new wallets yeah well that's nuts yeah which is amazing um I think there's about three thousand so sorry three million wallets uh created on or like on open C at the moment so to think about the scale of that is really awesome there were six million redditors who opened a crypto wallet or a web I will say they might not have known they

were doing that it's a custodial situation if you go through the user interesting yeah it's not marketed as creating a wallet huh it's a great Trojan Horse strategy yeah exactly and I think that that um that's kind of like my point right is and even six million by the way if you look at the total number of redditors I think it's like 100 million so it's still like a pretty small percentage we need to fact check that but it's it's a lot of millions I want to say triple digit Millions but these people are actually um engaging with Reddit in this new way which then they can move off platform if they'd like to do that though the number of people moving it off platform is actually very very small um right now it could be larger in the future and I think that's a really smart

strategy um for for Brands another one I'd give a shout out to is DraftKings DraftKings also I think has done uh kind of a similar Playbook where they created an experience within their own sort of existing DraftKings ecosystem again they have signed in people it's literally a sports betting platform so there's a lot in common with people who uh might be interested in the nft ecosystem in world and they've tested a bunch of different things from rainmakers which is like a whole program they did to their Marketplace um and they've also made it really easy for their Community to participate in like a way that feels native to DraftKings users which I love hey everyone quick break from Empire to tell you about another blockworks Channel that I know you're gonna love I've been in crypto full time for five

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Avery can you just walk us through a couple of the examples and then um Camille I want to ask you a similar question to you actually but like the thing like what what are Brands actually when you kind of list out like a brand comes to you they're like Avery we want to build a web 3 strategy and you're like okay let's do it they're like okay well what what can we do and like I guess the things that come to mind for me are like loyalty programs um like uh asset backed tokens like you can buy this and I think uh I just saw Louis Vuitton did this today um connect a wallet across like you know you go to like swoosh or swoosh um and you can like connect a wallet uh like brand hosted secondary marketplaces like what is your kind of like menu of

options that you give to the brand and how do you think about those yeah so um again it's sort of this more expansive definition we think about the technology as being blockchain as extended reality or as sort of advanced Computing and the consumer use case is like crypto it's nfts it's social and gaming it's immersive experiences or it's potentially even like in the direction of like AI marketing that's again more um the consumer is the creator uh and then what they can do in terms of outcomes is like Loyalty Rewards um d2c Community Building gather data and insights engagement and cultural relevance we try to not have things like off the shelf um I think we always want to like really be looking at what the brand is trying to do what Their objectives are and then

figure out how we can do something that aligns with those objectives what consumers care about and what's really interesting in this what three technology um I think like web3 loyalty is a big buzzword that we've been sort of hearing about and Starbucks and Nike are both like really pioneering in this space um but we haven't yet seen that hit like effective like it hasn't hit yet right it's like super early days it's too early to say if this has been um not like wildly successful or not we were talking about asset back tokens I think is a real use case within luxury like you know we've done um some programs that are around this especially in like the high-end Spirits category where access to these spirits and actually hard in like real life you have to there's like a whole gray Market

thing if anyone's seen sour grapes you know what I'm talking about but getting uh getting like Fine Wines and Spirits like from the source is actually like an actual consumer challenge problem so nfts can do that and um there's some interesting partners that we've worked with so we've done this with a lot of the brands in the Diageo family um with Robert Mondavi and that's been a really interesting use case uh that has sort of been proven I think the community building aspect is one thing that we're going to be really leaning into in 2023 um as uh using these groups for like focus groups we've spent a lot of money on consumer focus groups um and like really leveraging web3 to unlock a community that can serve as an insights

engine I think is going to be massive and then of course like this sort of cultural relevant pieces is you know some of that is like very subjective but depending on the brand and what they stand for matching them up with the appropriate things to drive a moment of cultural relevance that can X into web3 I think is is a really good place for a lot of Brands to start yeah and I would say in the brands we've worked with as well it's kind of spread span the gamut of um you know there's so many things within here that we're talking about you know for high-end luxury items we've really seen kind of takeoff as one of the killer use cases right like digital art Fine Art um that is sort of a very different thing than building out like a mass a

community engagement platform um and so we've worked with you know Sotheby's to help build out their their whole platform and their entrance into this space um with Pace gallery and that's really focusing on that part of um that high-end part of the market where you know these tokenized um representation of a physical item or just a tokenized digital art that you can own for the first time um that's a really I'm I think it's part of the reason why it's one of the first use cases that the world is kind of understood about it because it makes a lot of sense for traditionally illiquid or untransparent markets um and we're also excited to announce next month um one of those redeemable sort of use cases with the pub locally traded Global leader in high-end Spirits because

things that sort of trade freely kind of above their retail price based on demand or speculation or scarcity this asset makes as a as a use case this text makes so much sense um and then I think that's just like a very different category than building out like a high touch low-cost maybe even an earnable or free giveaway um sort of thing like what Nike and Starbucks are doing that is supposed to bring people back to your brand and your platform and engage in it a lot over time um in that way that's kind of low cost for Brands like that uh that cohort you're putting together Avery's going to be so interesting because it becomes that Collective consumerism where like fans of a brand start talking to each

other in a more bi-directional way than they can on social which is sort of like more unidirectional or how brands are used to communicating with like announcements to their consumers or announcements out to the wild um and of course there's chat rooms and things out there for like super hardcore fans of like SB Dunks or whatever it might be but owning a little piece of the brand together in a token that kind of can bring you together in the same place creates this form of community collaboration that is quite like net new for brands I guess both of you are perhaps uh the two people in crypto that are closest to this helping Brands navigate web3 into strategy I'm curious like I have two questions one is

what what are some of the things that you would like Brands to do and explore and they haven't done whether it for some reason they're holding back or they're cautious or they it's too early but what are the things that you would love a brand to do this year that you haven't seen all right yeah go ahead because I picked and they're all like no you guys both like jumped out of your seat ready to answer this one summer yeah um I'll I'll share one idea that we've had and I think if it's just like all the Vayner clients and Gary like several times so um please someone take this idea and actually go materialize it I would love

to like build launch a net new brand so first I want to give listeners some context you know Fortune 500s do a lot of acquisition of sort of new um Innovation Brands as sort of how they frame it it's like hey who like really leaned into using this platform let's acquire them so we get these learnings this is a you know huge thing in a lot of in the cpg world they'll sell for like many multiples so I think it'd be pretty amazing instead of like you know buying someone who's already doing it we actually build launch a new innovation brand internally at a big company that is sort of uh based on web3 from the beginning so let's just say it could be it could be a sparkling water brand right we've been talking about sparkling water how cool would it be to like get

you know however many people want to be part of this as the focus group as the evangelists um whether it's through an nft or a token to like really launch this as um a consumer built brand that can prove that this can be sort of done obviously you have some logistical considerations to think about like weight and shipping and formulation and all of that but I think that a lot of the next um sort of unicorn or next biggest brands will we built through this ethos of co-creation and I would love to see a Fortune 500 go and like actually and spend a couple million dollars to actually go and develop and launch one of these in their own ecosystem the reason why this hasn't happened um besides the fact that it's very early

and it's very speculative use case um it certainly hasn't been proven yet I think there's a lot of apprehension around regulation and I think that is holding back a lot of publicly traded companies from making a move into this space in a way in a way that could be perceived as commercial um that's why a lot of our uh brand Partners do things for free they don't take any royalties because there's still a lack of clarity around this regulation that if you're a big Target you've just got to be a lot more careful than if you're a small startup who has a great idea um so I think that's the reason that it hasn't happened yet but I am hoping we can make it happen this year and I want to add that I think that's a very legitimate concern and I completely

understand that perspectively it's not worth it to you know make two million dollars and lose 40 in a fine because you know the SEC wants to make an example out of someone and I mean from the tech perspective at least you know a lot of that depends on what the product is what you're promising what the market for it is but certainly for us on the Mojito side you know and building out um we have sort of and our fully on chain offering and then we also have sort of a semi-custodial wallet solution for new buyers and so in short depending on the Brand's internal sort of setup and and legal qualification we have uh sort of a license from the Creator to sell an nft on the customer's behalf and so to handle those Fiat payments those

ofac checks the sanction checks the tax calculating and filing Etc so like all of those details that are becoming increasingly important as brand Center um I think and we'll see more and more folks paying attention to that over time regardless of what they're bringing into the market um if it has any value at all um it's sort of you know how do you take on that risk and and how do you work with a partner that can sort of help build that out um but back to the fun part of what do we want to see brands do in the space what do we think is sort of misunderstood um I'm going to start sort of I guess two things one is it blows my mind that we don't see more Brands owning um their own branded secondary Market a lot of brands have focused on how do

they get that initial nft into the hands of their consumer whether it's again free or an auction or an item for purchase it's sort of a lot of emphasis on on seeding that that nft that token product into the hands of of their Community whether it's web3 native or or new and I think you know this is the direct to Consumer Revolution that this Tech offers why not own that entire experience for your customer and that secondary market and then offer the trustworthiness the community interaction be able to display your product however it should be seen even on a peer-to-peer secondary Market I mean we all I think spend you know at least have spent some hours on Open Sea in these marketplaces where it's sort of

the everything store where in one place you're looking at you know real estate physical real estate metaverse real estate um gaming assets amazing digital art pieces collectible and consumables like all redeemables all these things in one place so Brands really owning that full experience and then by owning the secondary you cannot own sort of everything that comes next which is like those Gates what do you put behind it is an exclusive content is an exclusive e-commerce experience is it an interaction Forum with each other and sort of get away again from the third party channels of like Discord and telegram where a lot of these Brands flocked initially and so think of it thinking of it more as like your web3 home base with that initial mint moment

branded secondary which I think we're going to see a lot more of in the future and then how do you bring your consumer into that like collaboration element which is what this Tech really offers um and I think just to make sure I get it so I went to I went to the Porsche website when they did their mint and it was like nft.porsh.com and it was kind of astonishing to me the call to action was go over to openc yeah what you're saying is like you should keep them on on the Porsche website is what you're saying of of course because then they can also offer zero percent platform fees like they don't see any of the secondary marketplace with platform fees their consumers get hurt by that because they have to pay that I think it was largely unsuccessful launch I mean Jason

you're not going to go to uh Craigslist to buy a Porsche GT3 you know it's it's just it was so off brand and you surprisingly see it in a lot of global brands that have entered and you go and they either don't even link out to openc and you kind of have to get there yourself um but I think that that can really change this sort of whole experience and unlocking that education Journey too for what these assets can can be and and and that sort of interoperability unlock secondary markets being one of them um and kind of related to that and Avery I'd love to know your thoughts coming more from the from the digital marketing world but the data piece for me is just so fascinating um because you know they always say and

that's sort of the benefit of why brands have been based direct to Consumer because you can own so much data about your customer you know age date how much they've spent in your platform where they're based roughly how active they are in your platform I mean it's funny how powerful that is yet how it's kind of affected trust in the era that we know interacting with Brands I mean every website we go to and we have to like approve or disapprove the cookies on the site like it just feels like it's weird Vibes that and then that's at a trusted brand site and that's mostly managed by a third-party data service and that's mostly to the benefit of AD targeting not things like hyper customized experience next time as I did not platform

um and like try no please that's something that I I always want to get your perspective on which is when you're pitching to these Brands like obviously like cookies are kind of dead or increasingly like if you're in Europe it's it's very difficult like that pop-up you talk about but like why why haven't we seen like is there any reason why we're not going to see any store that you walk into scan with your phone a QR code get a free nft which just represented you were in the store um and then maybe get some perks of personalization because it'll scan your wallet they've seen exactly what you've bought they've seen ex you know your size four of whatever brand they already know and then the rep gets alerted like it's a personalization

experience not so much advertising they can offer you perks uh like I know it's and some people in crypto look at that and say oh my God like this is very this is like panopticon this is you know Big Brother but the reality is like nfps are like a perfect cookie so what do we do with that is kind of the question I think um so I'm also obsessed with like nfts as receipts especially for luxury items I love that the barrier to that is honestly consumer adoption like if more people had a wallet then like more Brands would do it we've actually looked into this for several of our like clients and the adoption is too low right now for it to really be meaningful and like we actually like do

consumer studies this type of thing and it's actually confusing to people and it's something that they don't want right now broadly um I think that uh has the opportunity to change like especially through more like touch things whether it's a badge or a poab or something like that that's a little bit more of like an easier onboarding but I think the biggest barrier to what you just talked about is the total number of wallets who are active or people who think that you know especially when you get into like demographics Beyond crypto Bros it's a pretty small number of people who are like yes that seems like something I would want to do right now when I'm at a store shopping for something um of course I'm very bullish on this and I think it you you it'll happen but we have to do it in such a way that

consumers actually want that and they think it's a positive experience because right now um you know I worked at Google and like I remember in 2014 we were already like oh the cookie is dead like why like if this was like a super imperfect form of measurement and nfts I think that's one of the biggest unlocks is a better understanding of your consumer and what they're doing across the internet of course this has to be something that they get a benefit out of too it has to be mutually beneficial it can't just be like here's this brand like snooping on all of your digital behavior um it has to be some like perk to it for the consumer but in order for Brands to like invest in in developing these at it like scale there also has to be consumer adoption consumer interest um they have to be getting something out

of it that's like desirable um because the current ecosystem um isn't that easy for uh for normal consumers to sort of participate in or see value in yeah and I actually I actually think that's where we're also headed like I think these like Brands doing free nft giveaways or having to be like a PO app or a tied to a purchase in some way is so brilliant because Brands don't really understand the web free data set fully yet where they're used to the data they they know but in web3 you can see in theory like all of that wallet spending habits across platform all their brand affinities how active it is how old it is how new it is anything else it does

and maintain anonymity of the actual user itself in a cool way um and so so far all those cookies and a lot of that brand data it's it's really mostly used for ad sales and targeting which like the brand I guess benefits financially from but doesn't like love it's not and and even with digital um platforms across Twitter and Instagram like that followership that digital followership again is mostly monetized through ad sales and AD Revenue but when consumers sort of that nft becomes cookies as you said Santi like Brands can then actually bring value back to the consumer in that customized experience or by offering gated benefits you know gated access gated discounts whatever it might look

like then you can actually sort of use that that data in a way that like feels much more genuine to the brand and way stickier and beneficial for the consumer and it's the classic like it's cheaper to retain your most loyal customers than it is to get new ones and so you can actually use this as a way to sort of with a like you know it has to be managed and teams have to set up be set up to to really do this um but in a way that's actually pretty low cost for the brand to offer that customized experience versus what they're doing today with sort of the cookie thing hmm can we get into um a little bit about the tech stack like I'm just curious I know Camilla you you all have obviously mojito which which helps to do this um so I'm assuming one of your answers

Camilla is like the uh is obviously to use mojito but I'm also curious to get your take on like evm chains versus non-evm and stuff like that maybe Avery I'll go to you to start here and then Camilla we can go to you is like what is the what is the tech stack people are using here like what are the brands and like maybe a good time to plug like startups you've enjoyed working with I'm just super curious like who's working in this space and who's who do you like working with so far here for sure so we work with a ton of different firms like we really theater doesn't have any in-house technology that we sell to our clients and that's sort of by Design and intentional because we want to be unbiased Consultants who can recommend the right thing for the right partner and like

there isn't just one sort of size fits all from our perspective um so I'll start with um I'll I'll start with uh let's talk about the chains first I think broadly um a lot of chains are being very active in their business development efforts for Enterprises we talked a lot about Brands and you know if Vayner we do work with a lot of Brands mostly Fortune 500 but we also work with like associations and talent and these like sometimes governments other groups that are like also pretty large scale chains have really surprised me in their business development efforts over the past um I'd say like last 12 months with being really active in terms of incentivizing some of these Enterprises to adopt their chains we almost everything we've done has been on

ethereum or in evm compatible option but I think there are some like real plays that other um other companies are making we've done stuff with zapper we've done stuff with Solana excuse me Dapper with flow and Solana as well um so those are kind of like where we're focused um I think that evm is broadly makes sense for almost everyone but there might be specific use cases for example we're working on something with the NFL and Bud Light NFL already had their audience on Flow so it just made sense for us to design this pickum program which was like very very successful to be on um on Flow and and we worked with a developer partner there who kind of helped build the experience and the game mechanics they're sort of like One-Stop shops um I

think are increasingly interesting for Brands who um want more of a turnkey solution big shout out to the guys at moonpay and what they're doing which really simplifies um a lot of this and is easy for Brands to understand they provide this sort of custodial wallet they provide a minting experience through hyperman and obviously they have their Core Business which is around sort of like uh crypto and then they have the concierge offering I think they've been very active um in their business development efforts um as well we've got the great Folks at mojito all like Camillus sort of speak to all the stuff that they're doing um and I think that's kind of where like most brands are gravitating then I'd also bucket into the like Brands who

want to kind of go all in and build their own stack and that means you are going to need to be able to custody crypto um maybe own your own like own your own nfts obviously you need like some multi-stick wallets um I think the Ledger team has done a great job with providing some really excellent like Enterprise solutions for a lot of our partners and we've really enjoyed working with them that's been great uh so building your own stack requires some element of hiring developers or training your in-house developers and then getting a couple of pieces as part of your web 3 stack um which I think is like the folks who are all in um and then last but not least I'll have a bucket for what I call the dabblers of Brands who want to dabble to do

something um and one might be interested in activation or an experience they might be working with more of a licensing Marketplace kind of a Vibe a one of our recur um those Nifty Gateway where they are just sort of a participant in an existing Marketplace I had super rare sort of Falls in this bucket as well marketplaces who are working with Brands to kind of host that experience for them which might be the right sort of first step and we've done a lot of stuff there like oh shout out to the Nifty Gateway guys they've been great Partners to us in helping with some of that open C does a similar service where you can launch something on their Marketplace without being needing to sort of develop your own Tech stack and then you also have

sort of like Point Solutions like a PO app or a token proof that a brand may work with um on something that is you know that they don't need to develop a whole web web free stock maybe they want to do a part of it and using some of those Point Solutions can make sense so that's how I probably bucket it is like the One-Stop shops um the build your owns um the marketplaces where you the point Solutions where you can kind of participate Camilla can we specifically get your take on um I really want to get your take on like evm chains versus non-evm chains because I would say I am like thoroughly in the bucket of evm chains um but I still see like flow doing a lot I I still see like Brands choosing flow and like obviously I don't know what

that deal looked like for why Doodles just chose flow but I'm sure there was something going on there like I still see people choosing some of these non-evm chains which seems kind of like a short-sighted move but I could be totally wrong there so I I'm curious to get your take yeah absolutely um so for those who are listening uh evm chains means sort of the ethereum ecosystem ethereum virtual machine compatible meaning things that are compatible quite seamlessly with eth um poly polygon being one of the leaders there um there's some exciting activity on some Layer Two blockchains like um arbitrum for nfts recently but basically I I so and why well let me start here where I do believe in a multi-chain future but I

think the reality of the infrastructure to safely Bridge across um and move between these uh these layer one blockchains is actually a bit farther away than we think um and so the benefits that you get from the ethereum virtual machine compatible evm compatible world is that it's kind of the New York City right now it definitely has and I love looking at the data of like when we talk about this and we talk about the how big is the user base we're actually talking about um and even just for the last month of January we just pulled all this for a very data heavy newsletter that's coming out but even for the month of January there's um you know 430 uh year-to-date wallets active wallets

um interacting with nfts on ethereum so that's like a little less than half a million um it's about the same a little bit more in fact for polygon for the year so far um and then you see a big dip off for non-evm chains like Solana um B and B chain I think there's like 35 000 active wallets this month um tezos even less at twenty thousand and then flow uh which you mentioned Yano has 18 000 active wallets for this year today I guess on this point like we talked about arbitrum creating like single hand at least six million new sign ups mind you like maybe they're not active I would argue I'm sorry I read it it's right sorry read it read it so so like yes I agree with you

your point though if it were arbitrum that's exactly where we'd be looking yeah at least on the Vader side we go where people are interested in and that's like the reason why we're interested in yeah yeah I guess the point I'm trying to make is as an evm quasi-maxi just because that's where I invest most of my Capital most my portfolio companies are I mean imagine a scenario where a brand deploys on Avalanche or like Solana and creates like 20 million wallets and then some like does that like pose a serious threat to ethereum the ecosystem or like flow for instance like because we talk a lot about like if yes ethereum has the developer mind care but

I mean we're talking like very small numbers like this is like yep and but it's like yeah for sure and and the numbers we just talked about is really as I said like active wallets and you know you can look into volume numbers as well which are really easy to find but some of the other reasons that I think we're all preaching to the choir here is like semi-evm Maxes is it's also where most of the tooling lives like why it's sort of the New York City Tokyo Los Angeles combined of nfts is because you can do stuff there like you can take your nfts to different places you can take them into open worlds like decentraland although it doesn't have a ton of active users at the moment like there's so much being built on top it's like what does

that developer ecosystem mean Sanjay like it means that a lot of people are building stuff um Cinemas shops like whatever it might be the metaphorical equivalent like that's that development's really happening on on the VM compatible world right now uh which is why we send our Brands there as well and which is why we're um our Tech stack is is very focused on evm compatibility at the moment and there's also so then the question of what is the difference in terms of just like the decentralization and the longevity of some of these chains um and you know I'm biased because I sort of grew up in the early ethereum ecosystem um when the biggest new name on the Block was eos and everyone was like oh my gosh this is another L1 this was also

during the era of the tezos token sale in 2017 and everyone was sort of it was the Battle of the l1s and then you really realize that like decentralization really matters um and not having your blockchain stop potentially for a couple of days or for a couple of hours to fix itself and I mean we've spoken to Brands you know big sports teams that launched through FTX nft platform on Solana and those are now locked like they're it sucks they're consumer like their nfts are now locked there um and so who's to say like it this infrastructure is very early and these amazing names and amazing teams behind some of these other blockchains um again like I do believe in a multi-chain future but and I'm in hope that I I know these teams and even even

invest in some of them but I who knows to say who's going to be around in the future but evm compatibility seems to have the most case against it and has been through the most sort of tests and trials and tribulations that it's a pretty good bet for these Brands to build there home and start launching their assets just to make the point clear when you say decentralization matters totally agree with you does the does that resonate with in the criteria of Brands when they're evaluating the chain does that ever come up or do you do you emphasize that yeah and I'd love to hear everything's answer for like it's kind of been a meme in web3 like oh is it decentralized decentralization matters and folks that have been in the industry for long enough have unfortunately learned that it's not like that it's not just a

marketing tactic but it's actually really important and I think you know in the last couple months it's not been a great era for crypto with FTX and some of these headlines that are sort of making people think you know is this even is this whole industry just a little bit too early for us to get into and so I think like with moments like FTX it has nothing intrinsically to do with crypto or blockchain but it does have to do with custody and and ownership um I think they're starting to realize that these are important topics but it's still in that early phase of Education about them yeah um I think it's uh it's loaded right and it's very nuanced um I think you know we for one same point on multi-chain future I think the future is

going to be multi-chain and there's very easy Bridges you can build like we've done this like many times over if anyone you know is familiar with um book games um that was actually going to be blacks and that was like a thing that you can build a little Bridge even that sort of flow project I was just talking about um uh with Bud Light in the NFL we built a virtual ethereum so there are easy things that you can sort of do um so I don't think it's the end of the world um if a brand feels very compelled for one reason or another to go with something that is not evm compatible um we recommend ebm compatibility but it's at the end of the day I don't think that's like the hill we must die on if there's a specific reason I just touched

on this before but some of these other chains are very active with their business development efforts so it's like hey if they're going to pay you X and you know that's your priority right now to fund the rest of the program like I think it's something that we um we always want to Empower our clients to make these decisions and I think decentral we believe decentralization matters as well but user adoption matters too so um I think it's balancing those scales right of like what is the you know total intended audience um what is the risk um and making the right decision uh sort of like based on a number of different factors I don't think it's uh so binary in all cases I guess Jason directly it's your question Joe Brands

care about that um maybe it might correct me if I'm wrong what I'm hearing is maybe they care more about they know that most of the users and the purchasing power lives in ethereum and so they want to acquire those users like if you're a punk holder then reasonably speaking you can also be someone that can purchase a Porsche for instance so Porsche would naturally want to deploy where you have your wallet is that kind of the thinking today natives with if you want to make money no question you have to go on ethereum like that would just be like uh it's so obvious to me that like you shouldn't even look anywhere else if you're looking for I think the Nuance comes when you're looking at a more scaled approach then you might consider something else

um uh if that makes sense I think you joined us a little bit late we've talked a lot about like targeting the web 3 natives absolutely you must be there unless you're like really trying to tap into some like active Solana Community or something um but uh I think that if you're looking for a broader approach that's actually when you know you get more of like a flow argument yeah and and I think it's and also like so high value that's why a lot of like digital art and high value digital art is also on eth I think um but for and again it comes down to the goals and like that's a very different category selling sort of a new kind of digital luxury item than it is to build a very um like high touch Mass adopter

um consumer platform a community platform sorry and so then we've seen a lot of Brands Embrace polygon there because again it is a VM compatible um low fees uh very easy to build those those that project whereas as the Starbucks team says like it's not their intention for these nfts to necessarily be speculative or have any secondary market value I mean there may be because the nature of these assets is like because it's so transparent they'll always be a market like someone will always be able to understand the market of it pretty transparently but that's not the intention with these sort of like earnable loyalty stamps it's really for engagement and it's really for being able to give the consumer like new benefits that were possible before through this sort of token gating

interactive model and so I think that depends a lot on what chain um and to what AP said about so like at the end of the day the web 3 is like a really bad house party right now it's like people found out about it it's like a college house party like it sounds really cool people found out about it there's a ton of people waiting outside to get in but like it's hard to find your stuff might get stolen you've no idea where the address is there's no bartender like no one has a safe ride home like it's still very early but the party's really like it's exciting and so I'm hoping that like in this time before we get to you know a weather whatever it is another bull market or more Brands coming in to push Mass adoption that's sort of I

think separate from the token prices um I'm we'll we're figuring out the user Journey now like we like capital w we crypto we web 3 are figuring out you know what is that wallet solution is it multi-sig is it MPC wallets how do you abstract that sort of write down your seed phrase and but don't write it down one place but don't tell anyone but never forget it and like that's it's a scary Journey right now and so hopefully when people do come back it'll be you know great drinks you could leave your shoes at the door you know you have a safe ride home you know where all your stuff is you can leave your bag it's not going to get stolen but we're just like not the tech is still working its way through that

maturity cycle and it's largely been an industry built by back end Engineers that are finally working the way their way up oh yeah almost made it all the way through sorry um but I was saying it's an industry basically built by back end Engineers so far um that are finally working their way up the stack to beautiful and elegant user experiences and that's kind of like what we're at the very beginning of yeah we have uh I know we only have a couple minutes left here I want to just every Super interesting conversation I will admit like a lot of this feels very V1 like I don't think what I think this whole conversation has been very like here's What's Happening Now I want to actually maybe wrap this with like 60 seconds for each of you to kind of give like the five to ten year Vision like

when is I like it maybe that's you know you log into Nike like there's no more like username and password on Nike's website it's like you just log in with your web your you know your meta mask or something like that I'm so maybe Avery pick on you to go first like 60 seconds like what is the bigger Vision here if you're a brand thinking about this and then Camilla we can throw two to end I think the bigger vision is this co-created internet where users are empowered to vote on decisions to give their inputs um in a way that um is unprecedented and this is going to allow a new internet that is more personalized that is more generative that is more ownable and thus is going to create this new relationship between um what consumers love and them right so

whether that's a brand or that's a band or that is um a person that they're a fan of I think this allows this whole like new generation of connectivity um that is all driven by this sort of ethos of wanting to co-create the next version of the internet together foreign I think a lot of it actually does have to do with our increasingly digital lives and what folks call the metaverse is like I don't know about I I when I tell people I spend like 15 to 15 hours a day in the metaverse today it's just across I don't know 300 different websites and apps and slack and email and gaming and e-commerce and everything and it's a terrible experience it's all Tech space and more importantly like

nothing in it I own yet I don't own any of that I don't own my data I don't know the cookies I don't know my experience like I own what physically I buy through the platform maybe or like I might own subscriptions to software and stuff but like in this world of actual digital ownership like most of the things we own in our lives now are made by brands and as our digital lives become increasingly experienced I think of course a lot of things we own are going to be made by Brands as well but I think it's just going to completely change the relationship between brand and consumer in a way that's much less value extractive much more like co-creation much more engaging much more rewarding and so it's you know logging on to British Airways on to book my flight as a silver member and knowing that I

prefer aisle and my food Choice and then also maybe having to book on American or you know United nothing or a different area and them knowing that I'm a silver member in ba and then maybe offering me better discounts and you know trying to get me over to their platform in that way and so I think the the collaboration opportunities is like kind of hard to to predict because they're pretty Limitless once you can do once you can sort of own digital brand items for the first time yeah and that's really exciting and one other thing I'll throw on is this like more ownable internet that you can that allows the personalization it all kind of like works together yeah wallet connect everywhere on every website yeah well Avery uh Camille this

was this was awesome I think this is a really good primer on like basically how should Brands think about web3 how are Brands think about web3 I have a feeling we'll do this again in like six to 12 months once all of the things that you are working on today have been announced and are out in the public so really excited about this and uh yeah thanks for coming on Empire thank you so much for having us thank you guys [Music]