ETHMilan26 Trading volatility in volatile times

Transcript

Welcome Andre. Good stuff guys. So last panel and speech of today and then we're going to move to operative later. Not quite yet. From left to right we have Jib from Risk also co-founder of Risk like that. And which we heard a little bit about him before and we're now going to deepen even more with this panel. co-founder of TX Pervan Golini Meli partner at Capsour Capital and then our moderator which is

Federico Tangga R&D at bit Phoenix guys have fun and uh leave it to you thank you thanks okay um so let's keep in mind that is 6 pm so people may be a bit tired so we we need to to keep this a little bit uh fun and entertaining uh but maybe Before we start, if uh you guys want to uh say a couple of more words about yourself and your background, especially in the context of uh options and derivative and volatility trading.

>> Yeah, sure. Um so, Pierani, I'm a partner of Camor. We are a crypto hedge fund. Um we are specialized in trading options. As far as I know, they say that we are among the top three funds for volume in our coin options. I'm a crypto native working in the space since 2011. Started on the mining side and then shifted from mining to trading in 2016. >> Yeah, I'm Hrik. Um you guys know already about from uh my previous talk. Um my background actually before it was um was working for this very entrepreneurial family office where we were early

investors in in all of crypto in 2016. and um basically learn about like options trading involves really trading over there. >> Hey guys, I'm Jib from Risk. Um I'm co-ounder with co-founder with Dan uh with the best place to write onchain calls. Um yeah, I've been in crypto since about 2020. Uh mostly as an engineer. I run the technical product side of risk. Um yeah. Yes. So I think we have an amazing partner because we have a someone working on the options on the fire, someone working on a centralized exchange for option and someone working on the liquidity side market making. So I think we cover all the the aspect of this of this industry.

And speaking of of the industry, I mean, I think that the first question is in Trafy options are huge are much much larger than the future market for uh for for equities and and commodities. While in crypto is a little bit of the opposite. I mean futures, I mean especially perpetuals are much larger in terms of uh of volume and and open interest than the the option market. So I mean what is your take on this? Is is it just uh because the industry still needs to mature so it's just a matter of time or is it a matter of this uh we have different market participant with uh structurally different preferences

uh and uh yeah how do you see this situation can uh can change so yeah maybe >> yeah so I think that demand is definitely there for options and is growing as you said it's still smaller relatively to spot and delta one Uh for sure market makers needs um good liquidity on per and spot to edge. Uh so it's still not there. There are a lot of liquidity gaps. So market makers are quite afraid to put tight option but it's not only that it's really that infy option are used to play both sophisticated strategies as well as to

gain leverage. um will here we still have the per product which allow you to have 100x leverage. So the per in crypto is really competing uh alongside options as a product to express speculative view. Options still are superior in many ways. uh but as as a fund we see liquidity increasing every day uh at a greater speed that delta one products like spot per but yeah it's um the demand is definitely there but a lot of room to grow so for this reason we're investing a lot into options and it's also my passion so it's easy for for me

um on my side I actually think that um the options market in crypto will will never be as significant relatively speaking as as in Trefy. Um and that's mainly because in Trefy you have a couple of these um flows that are um you know very dominant like pension funds, hedging um structured products. Um and I think in in crypto there's just um a lot more alternatives with per um to to get the speculative views out. Um I what I've learned is that actually a lot of traders they like to think in binary terms and um some of the the retail demand and options that you see in

Treadfi it's kind of people playing them a little bit like binary events right like either I make a lot of money or expires worthless. Um people trade pers in crypto that way. Um and I think like when when you offer like a simplified user interface like for instance risk does um you also allow people of think about it like okay either I uh I buy for inance with a short put I buy it lower or I I earn a premium and and sort of this this market that is really going after the complexity of people trading options in their full probabilistic sense and thinking about scenarios um that's that's that's sort of like a niche I think where people are fully interested in in exploring the the power

of options so I think a lot of it will will come more of a indirect way so for instance you binary options are now like um something that a lot of people are looking into. you can use vanilla options to hedge those um people like risk drive drive flows via market makers into into options but overall I think that it's it's a little bit more of a niche use case than than >> yeah I think um obviously I think the options market is going to grow massively within crypto and I think that uh there are uh it's actually a big education issue a lot of people don't know that they can use options in certain ways which is something we focus on quite a But actually I think it's kind of the

opposite thing where pers aren't as big in trady. I actually think it might be the opposite thing where it's just the fact that pers haven't been made available in trap very well be that because uh you know they mainly I think it's just because around 247 trading is not a thing in in traditional markets and I think that that like has an impact on know you know the effectiveness of purchasing instrument. I think options are significantly better suited for 247 market. So I think that's why um they've kind of become the deacto thing that people hedge with. Um so I think it's it might be a thing that maybe per aren't as big in in Trafy more than options are the thing people focus on.

Yeah, I maybe just thought some caller. I had a friend working um at a large try market maker that they just launched in crypto and uh they were already trading at 23 hours per day infy traditional markets and they shift from 23 hours to 24 hours per day. They doubled their operational cost to just add an additional hour to follow crypto 247. So it seems uh easy to adapt but essentially it's quite difficult also for for liquidity providers and uh I think also one of the aspect is the uh uh interest from the retail side

uh that crypto is very much retail driven at least for now and yeah maybe something that can uh help uh retail traders or in general are like uh traders that are not super sophisticated to to deal with the complexity of of option can be uh AI to some degree. I mean it's a a buzz word that uh in this period we we always need to put out there. Uh but uh I mean do you think it can have a role uh somehow to to uh help people to to deal with the complexity of options or uh I mean is it is AI bullish for for option or is it different?

>> Yeah as mentioned by J before the largest gap here is educational for options. So AI can really help to to close that gap and also um the job that both Andrew and they are doing to simplify how to to access option uh just last week. We had um a good conversation with an investor into into a company uh that just invested. It's a large family office from from Hong Kong and personally didn't have any knowledge about option. He had about a lot of other stuff, super skilled individuals

and he wanted to invest into our fund but there was this knowledge gap. So in one night he spent all night speaking with broad and the following day he asked me a lot of question like how you manage shadow gama, how you manage your creeks etc. and he learned logically not everything but all the basic stuff to do a due diligence uh on a crypto option fund. So AI can really help to close the gap for sure. It's not perfect. We all know it but on the educational side is where it can add more value.

>> Yeah, I agree. I think it's mostly around the knowledge gap. I think that's mostly, you know, applied to retail. Whether it's something that sophisticated, maybe it does said, um, I think it can. Whether people use it for trading, I don't know if that's wise or not. Um, probably not. Um, but I think that definitely like is the education that kind of matters. It's like I mean now anyone can code so it's sort of like why can't anyone learn how to trade options and we don't really know right now, but I'm sure happens. Yeah, I mean for sure the the idea of of of outsourcing decisions to to an AI model is is still a terrible one, but like the idea of insourcing um sort of

like getting leverage on your thinking that's um that's very relevant. You see that for instance the strategies that I explained about like selling volatility systematically, right? It's when you want to back test all these things that used to take a lot more skill and time than than now. Like now you can basically these kinds of back tests uh with with other codecs. Um and then I would say yeah the education helps right like knowing the product specs knowing Greeks it's those are not things that drive your edge but like not knowing these things uh can really lose you money so so having these things in helping you with risk management helping you just to like get to the to understanding a trading system uh much

quicker um there will help think More interesting reflection though will be um whether uh the AI boom and who knows bust will have a similar effect as co because one of the biggest booms for this industry uh and adoption of of of options also in treadfi was was that in 2020 you had basically co people sitting at home and all the demand from sports betting actually went into into options and into crypto. Um and so have is actually this kind of K-shaped economy where um if if if the eye bubble doesn't burst, it's going to create a lot of layoffs for a lot of like technical

people, developers, uh who might actually then turn to uh to trading um as as a form of of supplementary income. And so um so I think I think it's could be interesting as well where it it democratizes access to trading. You could have some kind of retail quantum explosion in the sense that like it's possible to do as a oneman guy what you used to have like a fund structure and a team for and then maybe it's also like a force function where people are kind of almost forced to find these new ways of making money um in face of those >> and u yeah so maybe specifically regarding risk I mean you have a product

where you allow users to basically sell volatility. Now over the years, volatility in crypto is kind of trending down. So do you think it's still uh is it still interesting to sell volatility or is becoming less interesting as there is less volatility uh in crypto? Um well I mean volatility going down just means the price is moving less. Um, so I can I think it kind of like it just affects the yields in terms of how close you move your strike down to the current current spot price. So it's kind of a mixture of factors in that like you can always access those higher yields.

You're just like increasing how close you get to the strike. But in the end like uh there is always volatility on these assets that will always be interesting. People still sell volatility on big stocks, big commodities. It's not And it's just because if volatility exists, you can still ride on these assets. And I mean to be fair, like if you look at um how the market is currently, there's still substantial volatility. If you look at hype, for example, over the past week, it's want to buy something like 30 something like 30%. And um you know, volatility, you know, people say volatility is going down, but something interesting volatility just it can just go up in an instant. I remember during the FTX collapse um I was uh we had an

options book and I remember fall being at 100 um which I thought was crazy high and then I step out for like 10 minutes I come back and at 140 and I'm and I'm so like oh this is not great. So the thing about vol is it can always just spike up and down. And something we've noticed on risk is as users have become more familiar with the product. They actually wait for those moments. They they kind of like if the market's chilled and bit they kind of wait for there to be this big event that happens and they sell volatility into that so they can get the higher yields. Um which is something that you know that's like a second order thing you're noticing by educating users on in the first place what is an option. And now they know for them it's like okay um for me uh I can

on risk when there's a big event happening. So that's kind of like a second order effect that we've noticed with our with our users is uh yeah volatility changes a lot. So let's uh earn more yield when that happens. >> Should make a product where user can sell volatility volatility. >> I don't know maybe pure money can price it then I think >> maybe but yeah it's only in relative value terms so volatility sometimes is going down but Also the price is moving less. So uh it can also be interesting to sell volatility even if it's alpha what it is right now based on market condition. So yeah everything is relative value.

>> Yeah exactly. And so the actually when you're trading volatility right you're trading the difference between the move that's priced in and the moves that actually happen. So um as it turns out like selling volatility when it's high like for instance if now you would sell hyperlquid when the price just popped and the implied ball is um 80% 90% >> so so actually turns out very often that then because there is something real happening there there's a lot of true volatility that actually the spread between the implied and the realized is is often unattractive. So you don't necessarily want to sell a V at a time.

You want to sell a V for instance when it's trending down and you can actually earn a spread between um the price of the ball and and the future expected realized and actually that often continues to be attractive um when when ball is trending down when absolute levels of lower. Um so for instance right now it's an interesting time because like you can sell options at like 40 40% where realizes, right? And so the gap is what matters and and and and then as the asset moves less, your your your left tail risk is is you could argue gets a little bit lower over time, although it can definitely still still spike. But overall, it actually

makes the option selling a little bit easier, I would say. >> Yeah. And it's interesting to see that finally the implied V is moving away from a realized vault because these are all signal of uh developed market because there are also other forces like uh people looking for protection buying protective puts trying to express a view on the market. So those are all a good sign of a market evolving >> and uh yes speaking of market evolving. So now the main assets in crypto where there is a good option market is mostly bitcoin it and few of the other like larger tokens.

So um yeah one side there are many alcoins that uh do not have a good derivatives market side of the per but also maybe al alcoins are lo losing losing steam. There is like less interest from the market on our coin and the other side we see more interest for uh tokenized equities or tokenized commodities like XT. So uh in which uh direction you think that the market is going to evolve like to offer like more more derivatives for alcoins that currently are not covered or alcoins of the past and now crypto traders want to be closer to trapy with tokenized equities and tokenized

commodities. >> Yeah, it's interesting because the market really goes with trends. Um so right now everyone is looking at hype. Maybe in six months they look at something else. So for a market maker, a fund and also an exchange, it requires some time to u to come um to white list and uh start trading a new asset and uh this trending in crypto really um don't make things easy uh for uh for all the players. So a system like u of uh of risk which is scalable really help in

generating those two trades really really easy. I don't know maybe they can release any token in what in hours or days. So this is great but you also need a good exchange uh a traditional exchange with an order group to also have the full market to allow players to So those are complimementary tools that really work together. The market is going really into this trending of all the attention in 20 token and then changing. You're seeing real world assets like gold. I'm not a gold bug but I don't want to to talk bad about gold.

We it's a great asset and a lot of attention there and we are getting done on tokenized gold uh both the and before it was al the fun so the attention is shifting every day really >> yeah I mean for I mean the thing that we've kind of learned throughout humanity is people love trading things and making money uh so I think uh for us it's we we've built our system to be very flexible uh even if hype starts to and interest there'll be something else that people want to trade be that stocks be that another crypto asset be that

another commodity uh in the end like you know we build our systems to be able to be like all right let's just go to where volatility is and people will be interested and start trading and selling volatility on that so for us I think uh you know I think commod stocks especially are very interesting it's you know growing its presence on chain and uh we want to be able to replace all of the traditional nonsense of counterparty risk and uh and uh kind of like trusting these outdated systems and we want to improve the transparency of all that. So that's why for us stocks are a big push and quantities are a big push because we think it's important that those things start coming on chain. Um but then yeah in terms of like does it go to a new crypto asset or altcoins uh if you want

to trade we can do it. So it's just a case of uh of what our users ask for most of the time. >> I I do think it's I do think token will um will seal the fate of a lot of altcoins that they will just inevitably die and because at the end of the day tokenization about just getting access to to assets that were not tradable before and I think that's the big difference this cycle with the history in the history there was a lot of rot rotation because crypto capital stayed within crypto it just rotated between alt and bitcoin or e and now like literally an altcoin has to start competing with trading oil on the weekend on liquid or maybe soon it will trade it will compete with like AI

stocks and space X um and so um what's now happening is then that as there's access to um Trefy assets and and and those things are then maybe not directly equity stakes but much closer to like an equity ownership of a company where you start thinking about cash flows um that looks a lot more appealing maybe than a lot of like altcoins that were purely based on on sort of dream and hope and and optionality. And so what you're now seeing is like this massive consolidation of of focusing on only a few altcoins like Hyperlquid where because the thing is not equity, right?

Like it doesn't it's still like very unclear if you were to draw a balance sheet like what what it would even look like for these altcoins. So all the focus is now shifting towards the protocols that can actually generate the revenue to buy back the token. Um And so there's going to be like this incredible bifurcation there I think between just a few altcoins that can do that. Um and then a lot of altcoins where the same amount of like opium that they used to have is just that attention is just gone elsewhere. There's too many other alternatives to trade. Um and it's going to be just the right or sorry the left tail of the alcoin space >> maybe. So yeah this is maybe regarding

the the underlying side but um do you think also that we can see some interesting u evolution regarding on the product side. So for example we see that prediction market are becoming quite popular and prediction market on the price of bitcoin is kind of like a exotic barrier option or like a binary option. So you can see it as a kind of innovation the protoide like it's a different kind of derivatives that people are trading there. Um do you expect that we can see other stuff like that like different uh kind of option other than vanilla option that can become popular or like structured products that can become popular

especially with retail traders? Yeah, I think I think as as we as Dan pointed out a lot we in the end it always comes down to how you package. It's about selling the benefit of of what you're trading. um you know we could sell straddles knockouts knockins you know the main thing is can are we able to sell that explain that to a user properly so that it's actually interesting to them so there's 100% market for for all of this stuff because these are interesting and useful payouts to people who want to express an opinion uh prediction markets are you know great packaging for all of that it's like oh it's not a it's not an option it's a prediction so let's uh let's change how we how we even think about this uh this trade so it becomes more of like a sports betting thing as

opposed to like a an options trade with a big chain options chain. Um and so you know even we we did it with quite a basic one call and good puts but 100% we could explore more exotic things. It's just about we figure out the right UX to be able to sell that product to our users and and as D me get the liquidity to support those assets as well. Yeah, binary binary options are really easier for retail to understand. They understand the the max payoff which is $1 and how much they can lose which is the premium. So the barrier of entries is lower. Uh they can understand

everything faster. We are seeing that a lot of market makers are hiring people. We were discussing beforeh from uh uh sport betting companies etc. Uh because yeah until you have binaries on bitcoin on the price you can edge with traditional methods but then you are going into weather etc. It's just expected value so you need a different set of skills is a pure bet when you're expected value so you need a whole different set of skill set so inside market makers they are building for for prediction market to serve poly

market etc. >> Yeah. Uh I think maybe uh last topic I want to touch on is uh uh defy versus centralized exchanges. Here we have someone that decided to build on defy and someone that decided to to bet on centralized QAC exchange. Um why do you think uh like uh what you build is the what they decide to bet on is the right bet and uh how do you expect uh the the fire ecosystem to evolve as opposed to the centralized exchange one.

>> It's not necessarily that what I bet was the right bet. I just think it was the it was the there was a very clear user gap. Um, you know, the centralized exchanges are very well served by FedEx and Derbit. Um, so it's sort of like but we identified a very clear and uh distinguishable user that was not being served. So we went in all in on focusing on that and focusing on what exactly those users want. You know, I've been in DeFi for a long time. I enjoy the access and the freedom that you have on those funds. I enjoy that I can see what everyone's doing. I enjoy that nothing can stop me from trading these assets and I can everything that's going on on chain and understand and uh of assess um these

products. I think that counterparty risk is a is a real issue and very much undisussed. I think more people like to talk about smart contract risk a lot but far more money has been lost to credit risk than smart contract risk um in crypto and of course in traditional finance. And I think that that's why we believe that it's significantly more important DeFi because you can assess you can you can analyze assess what everything is doing. You know if you want to understand how risk works you can read the contracts and it's doing exactly that. There's no change there's no there is no uh kind of separate watches that someone can come and and say about risk because it's all written in code there. Um and so I believe that

that program programmability is very important. You don't need to bring a legal team. You don't need someone's you know sign off in order to do something. Uh and so for us likeuh The reason I like DeFi so much is first of all that there is no ambiguity about what we're doing. Um there's no things we're hiding. Uh and so on top of that the other thing also is just access like we you know traders can just use us and you know it's fine. We don't have to it's on chain it's all there and so um that's why we just I just prefer that way of doing things. Um also you know I don't like regulators that much or speaking to them. So That's just a personal thing.

So, I don't know. Maybe that would come get me in the future. I don't know. So, we'll see. >> I mean, for for Alex, the choice was was mainly um from the ground up for for technical reasons, like the the way you margin check uh option portfolios and uh and and and make it um make it low latency. Like when we started Alex, the there was just no blockchain that could ever support that. Even today, it's still very difficult for us to to transpose our performance to to a D5 substrate. We're looking into it. Um, but the way I think um it will move forward more is that when you have protocols like risk um that are defi and you can create sort of a nice clean

focused product and then you can have intermediations with market makers that then maybe hedge risk and get prices from centralized exchange because let's face it, the pricing discovery happens, you know, on there a bit on Binance, etc. Uh, but you can have intermediation so that people can sort of choose between a centralized and decentralized experience. Um what we're looking into personally uh in partnership with DeFi is is is you know we'd love to help out Risk on on uh on helping also with with providing liquidity on on their vaults but also um my conviction is that some of the complexity of of of options trading where you have to choose the expirations, choose the strikes. um it's

it's it's it's like 10 times more complex to get that done on DeFi and then the demand might shrink because people find it as a UI not attractive. So one of the things we're building right now is like a perpetual move contract where you can basically have a straddle exposure but it's sort of wrapped into a perpetual a little bit similar to how currently uh oil futures are traded on uh on trade XYZ where um actually the funding rate becomes like the the cost of rolling a future basket and then what you can do is you can you can wrap that into sort of a a perpetual style interface for for the users but with some kind of volatility exposure embedded um whilst then the hedging flows and the complicated stuff get gets

gets executed ultimately on on centralized exchange. So I I think you know at the end of the day DeFi especially with the the regulation the only thing that could kill DeFi is regulation and I think I mean the last few years we've made so so much progress. So I think DeFi is getting large enough where it cannot be undone anymore with uh with new uh with new uh with whoever comes after Trump basically. Um so I think I think the future is then that you have essentially like a coexistence but where where DeFi keeps keeps on gaining market share for sure.

>> Yeah. Defi different product but for different needs. So they will for the for the long run. Um the market needs both. I'm a huge fan of DeFi. Uh but CI is is needed at this stage where uh you still need ramp on ramp off but also nobody is able to do it own diligence. Example if we trade on risk we read the smart contract we do our own audit of the protocol. Nobody's not everybody's able to do it but a lot of people are able to do a due diligence on a centralized exchanges the

financials uh so both will stay for for the long run. >> Okay. Uh last quick question for somebody that wants to uh start learning more about op option get educated and eventual starting to trade them. So what do you suggest as an entry point on the educational level? Do you have a book? You suggest a YouTube video or just maybe chatting with an AI. >> Yeah, I think Lord's a good place to start, but I think the the actual main thing needs to come from the intention. It's more like what is your objective uh that you want to achieve from uh from from you know from your financial like goals what what do you actually want to do? Uh and then I'm sure options in a way can serve that for you. So it's just

about figuring out what you want to do and then from there kind of uh you know educating yourself on on on how to achieve that specific outcome with options. So, for example, if you want to be an income guy, uh you go and ask Claude, hey, how do I do income? It'll tell you that you want to be writing covered calls and cast code puts. Um then they might say go and check out the risk UI. It's really good at showing you that. So, that's something you could do. Um and then yeah, if you want to be a leverage guy, then you know, go to Robin Hood or something like that. So, it's up to you. Uh but yeah, I think it comes down to like what is your intention with the trading?

I think it's hard to just say teach me options because they are extremely complicated uh and uh you'll get you know thrown off by all the option all the options and choice you have so I'd say uh yeah just know what you want to do first ask how to do that and then start I think you need just starting to trade is the most important thing um and and and the key thing is also it's a bit like options a bit like a programing language in the sense that um yeah you can literally construct any payoff with it but um you don't have to right you can focus on something simple like to sell covered calls you really don't need

to know that much about the option right the main thing you need to know is that you're still in a volatility trade because if you know like you're selling hype calls right now and it goes to 100 you're not happy if uh hype goes to I don't know they get hacked and goes to $10 you're also not happy Um, so your happiness spot is somewhere in the middle where it gently goes up and and you add some. So, so you sort of need to know how they work as tools, but um, if you focus on specific options trades, you really need to know just enough to do that trade. Um, so I think I think it's about like um, yeah, it's about like just doing that just starting and focusing and then once you get the feedback of the P&L and you get into the

trading then that will sort of give you the educational the next questions you have. I mean the best way to learn about trading is like why did I lose money, right? And then you sort of learn just enough theory to understand it and and over time you just compound that way. >> Yeah, exactly. You need to lose money to to learn uh the good lessons is the is the only way as mentioned majority of the material is available online for free. So you don't need to go to special university to learn it. Uh, a good book is uh from Nicholas Talib, dynamic catching, but it's quite intermediate already.

>> I think intermediate is a push, I'd say. >> It's pretty advanced. >> But it's a good book. >> Yeah. >> Okay, great. And maybe we have time for a couple of question from the audience if there is any. Okay, then I guess uh we're good. >> Okay, sorry. >> Sorry. >> Nicholas Talb is the author and the title is dynamic edging. Really good.

>> Okay. >> So, you take about alcoins having to compete with TRI basically and aren't you afraid that by kind of cycling back to the that kind of assets repackaging them as crypto we will only suffer poorer execution less liquidity than in trfy and right now trfy is moving towards 247 trading etc are we heading to the right direction aren't we losing ourselves >> I We're absolutely going in the right

direction. The I think the all of threadfire wants to actually settle things on on crypto rails like it's it's a super useful um application to not have D plus2 settlement and not to have like you know try to just like close one brokerage account and move your stocks to another. it just doesn't work, right? Like it's and and and so actually all of Trefy wants to go to this idea of portable value, right? That's wrapped in a token and then the idea that you can actually settle ultimately on a blockchain u probably intermediate via the stable coins, but you can settle on a blockchain rather than on the old clearing systems and the only thing really that was holding it back was just regulatory clarity about like what's a

qualified custodian etc. But uh but no, I think that's like one of the certainties that in the next few years like all of finance is starting to look like crypto like it's actually one of the biggest achievements probably yeah once you have stable coins now this is the next big thing in the coming years it's going to happen I also think that that defi serves a different user base who wants more transparency and onchain you know onchain understanding of what's going on and I think that in itself se separates it from traditional finance so while we might have more stocks on chain um as they come on chain, you still have that DeFi benefit. You still have the ability to, you know, analyze what's

going on on chain and know the flows and everything and how things operate and write different products which you wouldn't be able to access in in the traditional markets. So, you know, I think that's also something to mention is that DeFi in itself is its own product that has a specific offering that Trafy simply cannot offer. And so, I think that's why um it's not necessarily going to backtracking by going back to uh offering stocks. Um I don't know if I necessarily agree that wants to be on blockchain. That's true. But >> on private blockchain >> on private block.

>> Yeah. But a private blockchain is like >> the key thing is the KY. That's that's the the big question mark for for this thesis is like what what basically is going to happen to like are they going to have to be that's >> any other question? Okay, then let's give an applause to our guys.