Ethereum Sequencing and Preconfirmations Call #15

Transcript

hello and welcome to sequencing and pre-confirmation call number 15 um today's call was meant to be a presentation um regarding the incentive alignment of delaying pre-s or not delaying pre-s uh but there was a last minute change of plans um the there's two pieces of good news uh good piece of uh good news number one is that the the punchline of the talk was that it's actually incentive align to not delay pre-s which is you know what we all want to hear um which was you know a very surprising uh you know potential result uh but I guess we'll have to wait to to have the the the presentation uh the other piece of good

news is that now we have a whole hour to uh to to give uh you know updates on the projects that we've working been working on and so in the last few minutes I've been scrambling to ask people if um they'd like to present and we have many many speakers uh lined up um so what I'll do is I'll just um uh list off uh some of the the the presenters who will be giving very quick updates on the projects that they've been uh working on and then if uh if you'd like to present either DM me or or you could present at the very end uh when everyone else has has gone through um and one very quick uh update

uh from me bit of a shill uh there will be sequencing day on November 15th um and I think we already have uh over 500 applicants which is pretty pretty insane um the I think the venue is is limited to I mean you might know like to 600 people or something like that uh so uh yeah it might be a very very packed uh and exciting event okay let's get started with uh the uh presentations and the quick updates from folks so number one uh I guess yeah perfect Amir from puffer great yeah so yeah quick also like a site update on uh the sequencing

there yes we we've been like planning a lot around it and like right now we're doing the lineups and the speakers but yeah it's going to be very exciting there's um like uh Justin mentioned there's going to be like 600 capacity we expect like a lot of people are going to show up we just opened registrations for it so looking forward to seeing you all there uh now on puffer side um not sure how many of you have been following up on Twitter or other places but we we're working on actually a uh two things uh regarding to sequencing and pre- comps uh aside from the LRT that we have but on this uh precom we're working on this like L2 execution proms the registry went two weeks ago

and uh you can find uh uh the registry on I ler here we have about like a little north of 20,000 ethereum U validators uh opted into this registry right now um I think like uh that's like already probably decent number to have like good guarantees we also went live on devet uh with UniFi stack so if you're calling our BAS roll up stack puffer UniFi uh and puffer UniFi rollup is live on devet with execution precons so that was like very exciting for us we were hoping to actually like prepare more documents prepare more presentations once it's

officially live with the all the Docks but this is actually a good opportunity to prepare everyone and hopefully we can like have something to show for it very soon in terms of like more public facing we're going to onboard like some of the protocols that are already interested building on it to start trying it out with the execution proms so yeah that's basically the tldr on the two things that uh we um are shipping in the past I guess months thank you all amazing thanks armir uh do we have one or two questions uh for armir uh yeah feel free to just raise

your hand uh otherwise we can uh move on so next up up in the alphabetically sorted list is Anil from Rome hey guys uh co-founder CE your R protocol if you don't know uh what we are building we are building a shared sequencer for ethereum l2s and uh we are building it on Solana so it's a little bit of an off uh if you if you if you feel uh feel Solana then basically what we have done so far uh we have taken an uh ethereum go client uh specifically uh op client and we have put it on top of Solana so Solana is the shared sequencer for op GTH type of l2s if you are using

an OP GTH you can use the plain manula though we have changed a little bit so what we have done is basically uh taken out the gasometer rules you still have EIP 1559 and all the other eips that op Gat support but underneath gasometer rules are based on Solana's gas calculations so basically your transactions are going to Solana there is an evm running on Solana that processes your transaction uh em is loaded and transaction processed and the state is stored on Solana and on the back end we have changed the fork Choice rule so it uses Solana's consensus of the or in the order the transaction came on Solana and it got processed on Solana and that is what it uses for the fork Choice rule to execute the payload back

to the opth CLI so basically your consensus is coming for the L2 from Solana Solana's old validator part participate it is a plain vanilla uh Solana integration so what you get and and then the state is created uh for for rollup and the sequencer and the commitment is provided on ethereum and the data is posted on ethereum for ethereum l2s so basically what we have done is converted Solana as a shared sequencer for ethereum L2 today we support op G we are in devant so if you want to try out you can try it out we will be in public uh test net in a couple of weeks and next step we are looking to do is integrate orbit from orbitum that client uh on Solana which

would allow any rollup that are using orbit as their client they can use Solana as a consensus layer as an shared sequencer so these are the couple of things we do uh what what do we get from this right so we get Atomic composability between L2 transaction so we are able to compose transaction between different L2 atomically that means as a single San Transaction what happens like any Arbitrage opportunity any event where you are or rwa uh transaction uh between different l2s you are creating you can create them automically as a single transaction so you do not have to wait for one confirmation on one trans one chain and on another chain because this is all happening in a single smart contract on

Solana so this is what we have been working on uh for past uh 8 n months and uh we are very excited to share this uh U with you all uh but we also have as part of this uh interop layer where uh SDK allows you l2s to compose their transaction atomically with Solana itself so you have access to Solana liquidity uh you are interrup with Solana and you can compose Atomic transaction so if you have a Arbitrage opportunity between Solana and L2 you can do that in a single Solana transaction so on one side you have in your ethereum transaction or ethereum like transaction from your L2 and then Solana transaction and you can automically compose this transaction uh

to take basically make Efficient Market take opportunities within the market so so this is what been working amazing thank you Anil uh any questions for Anil um oh yeah I have one are you guys using like neon for this evm stuff or did you implement it sofware yeah so we built our own uh evm uh so we looked at the ne evm and there were a lot of drawbacks uh firstly it only supported Legacy transaction it did not support EIP 1559 also the front end was based on python makeshift uh client uh ethereum client uh what we are doing

is we are taking standard ethereum client op orbit and integrating that with Solana so it is not neon it is uh our own uh built uh RM we call it cool and then how are you thinking about like the whole gestion for the space on salana right now um would it impact like the quality of like the sequencing that's happening on there yes so that is I think hopefully those things would resolve as Solana improves the fire with the fire dancer and others uh uh technologies that they are bringing in but yes that is something we would have to live with uh uh uh in terms of congestion transaction not Landing because uh these are uh part of

the Solana transaction that that are going to send to that are being sent to Solana so you are correct on on that front that okay congestion and uh when you have Landing problem with the transaction on Solana these problem do exist okay cool um are you guys open source is there a chance I can take a look yeah yeah source is all open but uh uh it is not uh that and and you can start your l2s uh if you want to you can uh you can use our smart contract you can use our code so so all that is out there okay cool if you could post the link that would be really helpful thanks sure we do don't know um how do you make sure that the

ordering that is defined on salana is the one that is then used on ethereum but is there some sort of like client Sal like clients uh with some economic security or right so basically your transactions when they process so we have a Solana node that are providing the transaction and you build the canonical State based on the order of transaction uh that has been executed on Solana so there is a light client that helps you build that uh with a geyser plug-in and that is canonical state that that is posted to basically ethereum smart contract the rollup smart contract so we leave that up to the rollup to create that uh uh canonical

State because the ordering ordered transaction they can get they they know the order in which uh the Solana slots are there and those slots can be reconstruct the transaction from these slots can be reconstructed to create your estate anytime so yeah like what happens if Sol equivocates like Analyze This to to othering so Solana finality comes within 32 slots which is about 12 second uh so on Solana there are two two places one is confirmed transaction which happens within like three slots and the finality within 32 slot so far on Solana no confirmed transaction has been reverted though they can end up on a different

Fork so on Solana is a forking chain so your transaction may not uh remain on the fork on which it was executed but it is it still remain executed uh state it has not so far it can theoretically reward but your finality can come will come within 32 slots so basically after 32 slots so if you can wait for 12 seconds or you can use uh the confirmed transaction and based on that you can create the canonical state if you need uh the faster confirmation and what we plan to have uh as you suggested uh an AVS that would guarantee these transaction the confirmed transaction as a finalized transaction uh yeah but and like the thing is that I'm not sure that this can

be considered pre confirmations like to me this sounds as if you're using salana for like ultimate toring so like to me sounds more like a like a side chain type of thing uh maybe more similar to polygon P stake uh but also there are some uh nuances inak so okay I will I think I understand where you're coming from so from deposit and withdrawal that are happening on the uh rollup smart contract so those messages will get to the SM Solana smart contract and they would preempt any other transaction that that are ongoing so they will interact with the uh smart contract roll of smart

contract on Solana and stop any uh withdrawal or any other transaction till the withdrawal uh on the the parent chain which is ethereum L1 smart contract are completed so yes so that is part of the design okay thank you aniel next up we have boen from Fair block um yeah hey guys uh yeah one of the co-founders at TH block we mainly focus on like threshold cryptography and various um MPC sort of stuff uh progress has mainly just been on the ideation

slash like um slightly starting to build uh phase um so we had some ideas around using uh threshold encryption uh along with pre comps to guarantee some like censorship resistance um as well as like uh front running or sandwiching protection for uh users um idea would just be uh using uh encrypting the pre-confirmation or transaction um getting some commitment from uh the person offering the pre-com uh that it's placed somewhere like all at the bottom of of a block and then once that's committed I within like some certain window we release key and

they're able to uh release the entire block um we chatted with like the chainbound folks um about possibly modifying or like adding this onto bolt uh as a way for implementing this um yeah things are still uh I would say past like the ideation phase but not quite at like the full building stage yet um oh yeah I guess like we should mention like what threshold cryptography we're using um so we're using like a form of identity based encryption where um only one single decryption key is needed to

decrypt all the transactions in a certain block um that way it's like slightly more bandwidth efficient um we have our own like uh proof of stake Network that's generating these decryption keys but um in this like latency sensitive preon information use case I think uh maybe like some of the builders could all like interact with each other and each hold a portion of the key um or something like that uh like we we probably wouldn't be the ones that are giving the decryption key to um the person decrypting the transactions it would some uh probably come uh on like the people running this

INF in the first place thank you boen um is the encryption similar to the internet computer kind of threshold like BLS based uh identity encryption yes exactly um yeah so I think uh there was some all there was also some research about like the silent encryption or whatever that like Charlie from Paradigm released um we haven't looked too much into that but I think it's probably not super feasible to use that that um they would probably need to use some other key or there needs to be some dkg happening ahead of time to make it

work thank you Bo and any questions okay uh next up we have uh Bret from Tao hey uh so yeah uh we're currently we're doing well we're trying to upgrade our BAS rollup to base rollup with pre- confirmations which I guess is the the point of a lot of these calls uh so yeah trying to like uh yeah bring to main it as soon as possible so currently working closely with uh especially like Gaga and Nom mind to make it possible um so yeah kind of like the last two weeks and I

guess the couple of next weeks mostly like in like a um supporting the sequen registry contract that mind uh created and also like working with gaka uh to kind of like also upgrade our to our new protocol with like pre confirmation support and also like an audit for for the new protocol that supports this so yeah I guess like trying to combine all the pieces so we can actually start using pre confirmations first on our test net hopefully in next couple of weeks and then also like on mayet um yeah depending on how good well how well the test net goes I guess depends like when we actually launch on mayet uh but yeah hopefully test net come like next couple of weeks and then if everything goes well may not end of this year

beginning of next year I think that's kind of like the the current planning that we are currently seeing uh but yeah I guess like it's it's mostly just on Readiness of the of the software we don't also kind of like we discussed this with like KY and we also see like yeah no reasons to delay or things like no slashing available or for example like no actually opt in from the L1 validators and always using the P PA so yeah I guess we'll just try to get it working as soon as possible um yeah even without some shortcuts or some some kind of like less than ideal kind of like environment yeah that's that's mostly it wow thank you B um great great to

hear that uh pre-s are coming to main that pretty soon any questions for br so next up actually I'll invite Lynn uh from never mind and and and switchboard because I believe you guys have been collaborating so maybe a good time to uh to have ly speak yes um can you hear me yes okay cool um actually I have some slid so let me [Music] oh wait I

don't can you see my yes okay can you see my yeah now we can see the SL yes okay cool okay so let me quickly go through um yeah this is uh the confirmation PC progress report for the collaboration we're doing with so we implement the PC for their pre-confirmation Solutions here's a whole team like huge shout out to everyone they're doing all the heavy lifting so the design we have is um we split 12C L1 slot into three sub second Subs slots and at the end of each of these sub slots so every 3 seconds we the elected pre- confer will

build sign and publish the tyo to block and the Tao users can listen to these recon2 blocks and like know the state of their precom the precom state so it looks like this um so the AVS node that is running alongside the proposer they will like register to AVS contract and the AVS contract will have um so so this first this registration we introduced a validator BLS key to ecdsa key mapping scheme which reduces the gas cost for L2 block by one3 compar design that only use PLS key so like the ident the of the validators will not be used using BLS key but we will map it to ecds

and use ecds which we do guess cost a lot we also have a look ahead submission scheme because we need this because the evm does not have the concept of look ahead so you need to give the visibility of the look ahead to the contract and we use you do this using a optimistic fraud proof mechanism so the first pre-con you know AO will submit the look ahead of the next EO and if they equivocate on it will be slashed and like this is a whole like preon Loop that's going to happen and all the transactions they will be sent through the tyo public mempo so no need for complex RPC Discovery in the wallet and also Mak self buing of these L2 pron

like somewhat viable and what happens is that either this EVS node that's running alongside the pre confer or the proposer it will check the look ahead if it's their turn to preon this will be done automatically then we fetch the pre- confer will fetch the transactions from the public mle build al2 block sign Al block and submit and sign al2 block to the P2P and we have a custom d2p for pron and then like all the full nodes that are listening to these preon to blocks they can progress their head and provide the latest preon state to the user yes and I think is is that because we're operating through the L2 Block

Level like L2 execution wallet indexer Etc work mostly out of the box because they all operate where against like this L2 block and then in the end of the proposer slot we have full integration with bolt SM boost inclusion list for Force inclusion and we also utilize a one public mle when it's not a preconference thought and yeah and we also have a fraud proof mechanism that if like this the prom L2 block submitted here does not match the prom L2 block submitted here s and this

is also automated so the not can detect this and actually slash and yeah the slashing Sports any reaking protocol that follows I layer cont interfaces so let me quickly show you a demo here okay so here you see like What's Happening Here is like we have um the whole ABS software and everything working and this is an indexer and we have like spamming the e m transactions and you can see that every two or three seconds I think like you

can see these L2 blocks being like picked up of our indexer and you can see them and also like let's try using metamask with metamask you do a transaction and try to submit something and yeah you should get result like the metamask yeah they pull being frequently okay but yes you see it confirmed okay that's it quick current stus as we're working towards continuing the collaboration with Tao to bring proms to meet we finalizing the funding

with PB PB ASF Foundation to for researching Fair exchange and future proofing precom we also submitted An Li Grant proposal for economic viability and security of precom that's it thank you Lyn uh Matt sorry Christian you have a a question yeah so um the question about the kind of the fees so is the user supposed to pay some precon tip or would this be taken out of of the gas how how would this work yeah so it's using the usual priority Fe that's um like the the

priority fee of the transactions at this point it's not like and the priority fee at this point is not conditioned to being precom so that's something that in the future we can do but at this point it's not we're just taking the priority fee okay thanks Jason in the chat asks is this using commit boost um right now we are just directly calling um BS F boost but I believe we can switch to and yeah but right now we're just calling like directly do you guys know how far out

you are from trying it out on Commit boost or just not in the plans yeah I just haven't looked into it yet so yeah we love to have that conversation but haven't looked into it yet okay thank you ly talking about commit boost next up we have uh Drew yeah just a quick update on our side uh offer to maybe some people aren't in the chat are on the calls but um yeah we got the code into audits um I don't know what is and isn't public but Sigma Prime is going to be doing that they were nice enough to to give us a

great deal on that and it's also great because the lighthouse client side of things which is fantastic everything seems good so far um we do have some validators we're working with um that are about to start running it in prod as well um in small clusters and then once the audit is completed in in larger size um so hopefully teams will be backwards compatible with PBS and then setting themselves up for heski testing for other commitments that will be out there and then a more seamless switch into prod uh ideally maybe for a year ends on that front um so that's the big push on the on the tech side uh sort of the last piece of the technical puzzle is just figuring out or non- external signers

how and where people are going to store the keys for other commitments which we've been meeting with a couple exerts across the industry and hopefully the next Community call will'll discuss a bit more but actually had some calls this morning that were quite promising on that side um of things and some no no complications with using things like ecdsa so um pretty excited and then the funding side of things I think all this is public now but we yeah got Grant from Lio the ethereum foundation the PBS foundation and igen lay so we're pretty much in a place to have the nonprofit set up which papers have been filed plus the legal stuff that's required with that and the audit paid for so I appreciate all the teams that uh helped with that um that side of things uh but

overall continue to to drive forward and uh reception from validators has been quite positive AC cross both sophisticated actors but also home stakers uh spending quite a bit of time with um some of the hardware providers and people that make home staking seamless and just making sure those Integrations happen um hopefully we'll have inclusion list ready soon for them to start testing as well um so that's if there's any questions but uh that's what's been happening on Commit boost and uh we're really excited to see the first pre- comp land hopefully over Devcon or uh before year ends in PR yeah preon at deathcon that sounds

sounds great um any questions for Drew yeah I just wanted to say um I forgot to add our precon our L2 execution precon actually using Comm as well so uh yeah love to work with others who aren't Lynn but give it some time I guess we're happy to help if there are themes too that want to explore this but yeah I don't mean to publicly pressure you do you know when the next Community call will be for commit

boost um maybe before Devcon the week um the biggest thing we wanted to get is was a framework around how to store these external Keys based we were probably being too cautious surrounds um you you learn how people store their keys it's bit funny for the validator so maybe the the the bar isn't as high as we thought it was going to be for these these proxy keys so hopefully before Devcon okay thank you for the update Drew uh next up uh we have Ellie from espresso um yeah hey everybody so two big updates from espresso so the first one is from the R&D side uh espresso has been working on uh a composability

protocol so the ultimate goal of espresso is to enable composability between all of these chains uh so we'll have a a pretty detailed blog post coming out about that soon but the quick overview of the protocol is that it's uh you know each chain uh has these mailboxes so each chain has an outbox and an inbox uh the outbox is messages that the chain is writing to other chains and then the inbox is the messages that are incoming and using this design uh we can allow chains to have synchronous composability without having to know anything about any of the other chains so the way it works is that um these mailbox are populated by a

shared sequencer or by a coordinator and then at settlement time you have an aggregated settlement layer something like AG layer maybe uh that checks the consistency between these mailboxes is to ensure that uh synchronous composability is held and that the state is not inconsistent um and the really cool thing about it is that it works best if you have a shared sequencer to populate these inboxes because they're already doing that work anyway uh but we can actually get it to work if you don't have a shared sequencer so chains with two separate sequencers uh can actually still get synchronous composability uh in this design which is which is very very neat so uh yeah that's our biggest kind of like R&D project that we're working on

right now um and then the second big announcement is that espresso mainnet is coming incredibly incredibly soon uh so yeah watch out for that okay another exciting update uh thank you Ellie any questions so this whole inbox and uh an outbox design is that uh that's not coming for the the main net release right that's something that that requires a zero noge proof for consistency is that correct um yes we won't won't be coming in the imminent

main net but we are actively like developing it right now okay and does it require like relatively fast zero knowledge proofs um no it does not uh so yeah it doesn't uh the proofs don't need need to be fast they just need to to be generated by settlement time which does not need to be fast uh you can use this sopro is also This Global confirmation layer which can be used to get a fast confirmation of the state of the rollups before the proof is generated fast zero knowledge proofs however uh once we get there will it will improve the pro the protocol quite a bit uh so yeah okay well that was the thank you Edie

that was the last presenter I had on my list if anyone else wants to give an update on that project they more than welcome to just jump in I can give one um everyone uh We've generally been stability testing as we kind of move towards the M main net um as many people on this call know been building um you know a lot of infrastructure that allow things like pre-confirmation and two particulars on that is uh you know the privacy of the uh mempool on on me commit and the fact that the chain is able to handle kind of millisecond basis um you know attestations uh to some degree so we're working with two different

pre-confirmation teams who are interested in leveraging that for their own uh Gateway design basically it allows them to Just Launch a contract and you know make their own commitments and do their own pre- confirmations and they can kind of Leverage all of this um so they're using it for you know regular like leader based pre-c confirmations which is great uh but yeah we're interested in more uh people who have different requirements for setting up their own um you know pre-confirmation logic or you know protocols uh so if you're interested uh in this and particular you know we have Decay mechanisms Etc that solve the fair exchange problem uh so if you're interested in that would to talk to you more and understand um you know your requirements and enable that um so yeah

we're we're hoping to kind of go to mainnet with a few few of these folks kind of um leveraging the chain for its um benefits okay thanks muret any questions for m okay in which case uh if anyone else wants to jump in with a quick update now is a good time okay well apologies again for the

last minute change of schedule but uh thanks everyone who uh who gave an update and looking forward to seeing many of you uh in Thailand uh very very shortly uh it's possible there will be another sequencing call uh next week uh yeah stay uh stay tuned that's the end of the public call thanks guys thank Jus thanks everyone