ETH staking chat, L2Beat Stages feature and more - The Daily Gwei Refuel #607 - Ethereum Updates

Transcript

hello everyone welcome to another episode of The Daily gray review where I recap the latest news in ethereum ecosystem I'm your host Anthony it has the 28th of June 2023. all right everyone let's get into it so apologies for missing yesterday's episode everyone I know it's always a bit more of a rug when it happens on a Monday when I miss an episode on a Monday because obviously you don't get any refuels on the weekend there but I just had to miss yesterday's for personal reasons but that means that hopefully today will be a longer episode as there is a bunch of stuff to get through uh so let's get into it uh the I guess the thing that people have been talking about a lot over the last day or so was something that I actually talked about two weeks ago on the refuel that I

feel like is worth talking about again because there is a bunch of new information that has been uh put out there as well as a bunch of new concerns around the uh around what I talked about so what I'm talking about right now is this kind of eth research post here that was originally put out by Mike noodle which would increase the max effective balance uh per validator per ethereum mistaking validator now there was a lot of misinformation around on this where people were saying that oh look the um you know the ethereum core devs are going to change the minimum eth required to stake per validator from 32 to 2048 each and that is not what's happening at all so just to recap what this proposal is and this isn't something that is like happening or anything there's no EIP for this yet it's literally just an eth

research post but essentially what this proposal does is it would increase the max effective balance from 32 8th to 2048 eighth which means that each validator could have up to 2048 each staked on it instead of uh the 32 eighth that you have now so the way it works now is that you stake 32 eighth and that is your max effective balance and your Min balance so the minimum obviously to stake is 30 to eat but it's also the maximum so any other any more eighth at a cruise on top of that third tweet in consensus layer rewards is not uh you get rewarded on so if you have like 32 eighth and then you get a 1 8 worth of consensus layer rewards and this was before uh withdrawals was enabled because obviously with withdrawals being

enabled you can't accrue that much because of the fact that it automatically gets sweeped to if you have the the zero x01 credentials it automatically gets sweeped to your withdrawal address but but before that was the case people had like 34 eighth in a per validator right so that 2 8 above 32 was doing nothing it was effectively dead eighth what this proposal does is make it so that that eighth is earning a proportional reward uh obviously compared to the rest of the network uh and obviously this is a really great proposal for something like Solo stakers or homesteakers where essentially a soil Staker can keep earning uh rewards on that it can recompone that stake rather than having to save up another 32 to spin up another validator to earn rewards on that eighth

so you can begin earning rewards basically straight away on on that eth you know obviously once you um kind of restake it as part of uh your validator there now the reason why this was brought up I guess over the last 24 hours even though it's two weeks old now is because crypto Twitter and I I guess like people in general are just so far behind on on things and aren't at the bleeding edge because they don't watch the refuel and yes I'm doing a bit of a plug for the refuel here but I'm always proud whenever the refuel it basically covers it whenever I cover this on the refuel basically the day gets personal day it happens and then I see it like weeks a lot of time months later uh on crypto Twitter and I'm just like oh my God like I already spoke about this I

already explained all of this you know all you have to do is watch the refuel but anyway outside of that the new topics of discussion the new points of discussion around this were of the concerns that people people brought up now people brought up the fact that right now as a large operator of validators so say you are an operator that manages I don't know 100 000 validators or something like that right uh obviously it's not that big but let's just let's just set out because it's not that that um there's no one entity or no one operator that runs uh 100 000 validators but just for the sake of argument say you've run 100 000 validators now you're probably not going to run all those validators on the same machine for a number of different reasons right you're not going to run on the same shame for redundancy reasons

because you don't want you know if that machine was to to go offline that all your validators go offline right all those 100 000 go offline uh you probably don't want to do it for slashing risks uh and other such risks like that so what they do is they split these up so maybe you split up ten thousand uh sorry 100 000 validators across 10 different machines so you have ten thousand validators per machine now the downside of that though is that if there's a lot of overhead there you have to manage 10 different machines right or 10 different instances of of different machines if you're running them on kind of cloud infrastructure uh and obviously the the risk of I guess like um like catastrophic loss is reduced because you're spreading out the risk but the overhead I don't know I kind of think it Nets out

um it Nets out to basically the same thing because the overhead of having to manage all those things and make sure that you've secured each and every instance or box of what you're running these validators on as secure as each other and they're all up to date right uh you maybe don't want to reuse the same credentials or the same Keys the same SSH Keys across these different boxes as well so yeah it just becomes a kind of thing where it's like the trade-offs here for these big operators because what would happen in this world where the max effective balance was was increased would was that these uh validators all these large and these large validated operators I should say sorry would consolidate right so instead of having a hundred thousand validators and again I'm just doing easy math here because I don't have um the exact names

numbers in front of me maybe they consolidate down to 10 000 validates right or a thousand validators depending on what the increase uh the the increase of the of the max is here uh that would mean they'd probably just run them all in one box so they get rid of all that I guess like redundancy they had before and it would all be running on one box but in saying that there are other ways for these operators to do redundancy so they could do it through something like DVT or distributed validated technology where they could if they really wanted to run those 10 000 validators on 10 different machines they could have just different uh DVS so that they could just have um DVT Tech like oboe running on those validators so that if one machine was to go offline right another it would be the validators would still be online

because the validators are running on these other machines as well it would be effectively the same setup as they have today right uh in terms of uh in terms of kind of like the risk being being spread out uh and they'd be able to do that through DVT in this uh kind of um in this world where the max effective balance is increased like that uh secondly this uh this proposal is being kind of proposed as an opt-in thing so what this means is that you don't have to actually do this you can still keep those hundred thousand validators as 32 eighth validators you don't actually have to consolidate them all right so if you are worried about redundancy if you are worried about uh you know correlated risks and stuff like that what you could do is just not opt into this and any

eighth that you accrue and you want to compound you could probably just spread across these validates so instead of spinning up new validators you could just spread it across the existing ones um you know in whatever increment you want to do so I guess my Point around the concerns around large operators here and I'm speaking about this from someone who obviously doesn't run you know 100 thousand validators or even thousands of validators right someone who's not a a huge operator of a validated ACR but but from my point of view from like the outside looking in I feel like that the trade-offs are worth it because what we get in return for for this what we get in return is basically the uh a way for solo validators to essentially be able to easily compound their stake and it's not just solo validated it's also

rockable validators any any kind of like person that's running a validator right running a node at home you also get a decreased overhead on the beacon chain because with less validators online there's less peer-to-peer traffic which means less bandwidth and uh uh Hardware comments don't really change that much but it's it's really around the bandwidth there so less usage there and uh and obviously that's good for the network as well because it means that there's less strain on the network overall and this proposal would also unlock things like single slot finality and enshrined PBS which obviously are huge upgrades for the network so when you take this all together I think that even if you want to take the most conservative approach here and say that okay well these are all the negative

things but here's all the positive things they pretty much just net each other out so I think that even if you take the most conservative approach this proposal should go ahead just because of that and I did say on Twitter that I'm neutral to positive on this proposal and that's because I've looked at all the different kind of things I've looked at the positives of it I've looked at the negatives of it and I've come to a conclusion that this is neutral but probably more positive than the negative to put this through because it really does help with obviously solo operators it helps with uh reducing strain on on the peer-to-peer layer but it also helps with uh unlocking things like single slot finality and enshrined PBS so when you take it all together I am I think at this point in favor of this proposal

going ahead maybe some things need to be tweaked here and there maybe there are certain aspects of the this in certain properties of this that need to be tweaked but generally I'm in favor of increasing this max effective balance because I believe that it will lead to better decentralization of the ethereum validator set and also a better and more secure and healthier Beacon chain overall even with the concerns that I've mentioned there but maybe you guys disagree with me on this I'm all for being disagreed with you can let me know in the Discord Channel or even in the YouTube comments there but this is an evolving proposal as I said before it is it is not there's no Erp for this yet it was only put out two weeks ago there's going to be a lot of discussion around this as time goes on but yeah I do think

it's something that should be seriously considered for inclusion uh probably not anytime soon maybe maybe next year at some point if it does go ahead maybe the the end of next year I don't know if it would happen in the first half of next year maybe the second half but again this is an early research phase it is not an EIP yet or anything like that but I'm curious to see how this evolves over time and last thing I want to say on this is that there were some people are wondering that would you chance of proposing a block change because instead of having like 10 validators you would only have one validator but you'd have more Ethan that validator which means your your chance of proposing a block would be one tenth of what it was before that's not how it worked your chance of

reposing a block is actually not calculated per validators you have it's calculated on the amount of basically eth that you have and now because the eighth is at 32 right it's actually explained in this E3 social process I'm trying to kind of uh dumb it down here but because it's at 32 it from from uh from the perspective of the beacon chain each validator has a an equal chance of proposing a block that's how I understand it so if you had like 320 eighth on one validator or 32 each per validator on 10 different validators you would have the same chance of proposing a block with one validator or 10 validator because it's based on the eat stake not on the uh the validator uh sorry not on the um the amount of

validators that you have so hopefully that clears it up there but generally I highly recommend going and check checking out the actual eth research post itself and a lot of the replies in the post because it's a great uh source of knowledge for everything I just talked about there but anyway moving on from that one as I spent a lot of time on that to another staking related uh little Twitter thread here from Izzy who is a master of validators at lato so there are two eips right now one of them is already uh slated for inclusion in dencoon that is going to uh vastly improve the ethereum staking experience especially for uh just note operators generally here so eip4788 which is one that I've talked about before which is their beacon block route in The evm Proposal is slated for inclusion in dencoon and what this does

is basically allow uh certain things to be accessed on the execution layer from the consensus layout certain information to be accessed in a trustless way now Izzy explains exactly what this is in the thread so I won't go into any more detail there but there is also another EIP Erp 7002 which is called triggerable exits which is also in discussion I don't know if it's going to be included in dencoon or not but it's definitely something that he's in discussion right now and what this would do is it would allow for forced exits of validators so for example say you are validating with an operator and an operator doesn't uh it doesn't honor your request to exit uh from from the validated set or exit a validator for that they're operating from my understanding what you could do

is you could trigger a forced exit which means that you could trigger the exit um or the withdrawal of the validator itself without having to go through the operator to do that obviously that's great for decentralization and and insurances and then assurances generally when staking with uh saving service providers and pools and stuff like that so that's something that we would want included in the network as well so those two eips are detailed here by Izzy in this Twitter thread which I'll link in the YouTube description below for you to check out but as I said 4788 is already stated for inclusion in dencoon whereas erp7002 is in discussion right now uh it doesn't seem to be any reason why this wouldn't be included uh in an ER in a network upgrade not sure if it'll be included in dencoon I think dencoon is

still open for erps to be included in but what it is a pretty big Network upgrade already so maybe um this kind of triggerable exits will be punted to the next upgrade which hopefully will be six months after dencoon but we'll have to keep an eye on that and I'll definitely uh keep you guys up to date on that one all right last thing on each staking so Nick so here uh basically I tweeted out a screenshot of a post that someone made on each Staker so the the post basically says I had enough I exited my validator and the reasoning uh for this and this user Is morgue triple four they said sorry the apy is way too low he's continuing continually declining and exchanges are being shut down or charging a fortune in fees at this rate

crypto will be a black uh back alley A Relic I'd rather put the money into assets that appreciate and generate a decent return When crypto is this difficult to use it will never see wide adoption and regardless of the API is incredibly low for the effort risk required see ya so this post itself seems like a lot of ranting and rambling uh that I mean it kind of goes in a bunch of different directions yeah it doesn't really make much much sense but Nick so shared this the screenshot of this post and basically said this is healthy and working as intended the ethereum proof of stake consensus mechanism doesn't overpay for security like proof of work did if there are more than enough validators low yielding car urges you to put your assets elsewhere validators are in service of ethereum and not the other way around now I

completely agree with with nixo's take here and I want to have a just a broader discussion about this because I think this is very important so obviously the yield for each staking is variable right there are two sources of yield there are consensus layer rewards and execution layer rewards now both of these sources of yield are variable if more validators enter the beacon chain and come online the consensus layer rewards for every validator goes down that's just a simple issuance curve that's been set up for the beacon chain similarly if a validators exit and the less validated as we have and I'm talking net validators the apy or the yield it's an eighth denominated yield for validators for all the validators will go up so that's simple in the consensus layer

side of things where things get a little bit more complex and a lot a little bit maybe a lot harder to kind of Reason about and and try and predict what's going to happen is the execution layer rewards because the execution layer awards are made up of two things tips and Mev Revenue now there's a lot of commingling of these things because tips can be Mev Revenue but they they can't be as well because regular users send tips uh to the network too there but but generally when it comes to any kind of fear of a new or Mev Revenue it is extremely volatile as we've seen gas fees can go to 100 gray right and stay there for two weeks the yield's going to be amazing for that two weeks for validators but then it can drop to like 10 or 15 way and stay there for a month

and then the yield is going to be really poor compared to what it was in those two weeks and this is exactly why you don't extrapolate yield out to you know a day day so you don't take like a day's worth of yield and extract like that out yearly or you don't take a week's worth of yielding extrapolate yearly even monthly yield extrapolating at out weekly given how variable the yield can be is probably not the way to go about it so that's why people kind of look at this and like oh my God the yield's so low it just keeps going lower especially if they're looking at the the the total yield not just the consensus layer yield but also the execution layer yield the that's what's going to happen more validators coming online yield goes down the consensus layer side of things more

uh the the fear Revenue going down because the Market's quiet which means Mev Revenue goes down not just tips less yield for validators right so the yield might have been seven percent on one week and then the yield is like what four percent or another week or something like that right uh so that's the kind of variability you will see there now as nixo said this is actually healthy and working as intended validators are not owed anything you are doing a job the ethereum network is paying you what it believes or what it has been programmed to pay you to do that job right in terms of consensus layer Awards execution layer rewards are variable because right now demand is quiet right demand is quiet for for use of block space and users are paying what they feel is is um is worth it to use

the chain now obviously when things get get hot the gas fees go up and and yield goes up with it right and also obviously as more validators join if the if the gray price stays the same if the gray is 100 and more valid at his join and let's say it's a constant a constant gas price at 100 way then obviously the yield is going to go down for everyone again because the the um the fee revenue and sorry the Mev revenue and the tips is being spread out amongst more validators but as I said this is the way it's intended to work and if the apy isn't good enough for you the APR I should say then you unstake right if you want to take your eighth elsewhere and this is the thing this is the thing that that kind of like gets me about this is that

okay you you don't think the APR is high enough then what are you going to do with your eighth if you're still holding your eight if you're if you're actually not selling your eth and you're still holding it but you don't want to stake it then where are you putting it to get a higher API than you would get with if staking you're not there's nowhere else that will give you a high APR on eth right uh other than staking it now okay maybe you want to use your eth in a money market and then borrow against that uh to put stable coins somewhere to get a higher yield okay but you can do that with an LSD you can do that with R8 you can do that with SDS you can put them money markets and you can borrow against it and and and do exactly that

right so you could still be earning the the Easter nominated yields uh borrow those stable coins then you have to obviously factor in um the borrow costs but you'd still be earning more than if you were just doing vanilla eighth because you're still getting that eighth yield right so when you think about it like that it doesn't really seem logical to unstake or eat because the apy is going lower than what you expected it to be unless you're planning to sell your eighth for USD right um so that doesn't make much sense to me to do that so from that perspective that's why you don't really see anyone exiting because logically it makes very little sense logically uh most if not everyone's taking their eighth is obviously uh long eighth for the longer term and hopes that ethyl appreciate in

the long term because it is an ether nominated yield so even if the yield is only like three percent right it's still Easter nominated so if goes like 2x you are much better off staking your eighth getting that three percent than you were cashing that ether to stable coins and getting like a four percent yield on stable coins yes there's obviously vastly different risk profiles here of holding in stable coins obviously going to be stable compared to holding eight where it's going to be volatile but that's the kind of calculus that you really have to do at the end of the day and that's the calculus obviously that I do and that I think a lot of people do as well so that's my rant about that but there's also another important Point here about yields when it comes to staking eat there are going to be other

ways to generate yield on top of your staked eth such as eigenlayer now this changes the calculus a bit and there is a concern here that a lot of it is going to be staked right the staking yield will go down to what one percent or something like that for just staking your eighth on the beacon chain whether that's through an LSD or otherwise and then what ends up happening is that if you want to get more yields on it you have to go do re-staking right you have to go up into something like eigenlayer or or one of the services that eigenlayer offers there so you actually can't stake without staking with eigenlayer but and then what ends up happening is it might centralize might it might centralize this stake into

eigen layer and that causes a security concern so that one I actually kind of like I can see the concern around that and I and I understand that um and I think that there there obviously needs to be more research done into that in the incentives around that um but at the same time that is probably something that's not going to happen for it for a little while right so we've got time to kind of talk about it and research it and stuff like that and there are people doing this that's something that needs to be considered as well where the apy of vanilla eat steak and can actually go really low because if so let's just say for example you stake your e the APR I should say APR because it's not apy APR um is one percent for staking but then you can go restake that with eigenlayer

and get another what three percent on top of that well suddenly your East denominated stake or your denominated yield is back up to four percent right right so anyone who's just like taking vanilla eat they're actually worse off yes you take on more risk risk taking but you know is it worth it to you so there is a risk factor there there's obviously a knowledge Factor as well not everyone's going to know that they can do this um and there's obviously a time um a time value of money thing as well like if you put it into eigen layer like how fast could you get your liquidity back is there going to be another LSD on top of that there's a lot of considerations to be had here and these are the things that we obviously as a community need to talk about uh but yeah

that's generally how I think about all these things here but anyway enough on that one uh I want to go over the other things I have to talk about today but just a great tweet and prompt there for me to talk to so thank you Nick so for putting that out all right L2 beat has introduced a new section of their website called stages so what this is is basically a well if you go to the l2beat website which I'll do right now to show you I should have had this up before but I'll quickly get it up here is that you can actually go to the project CR and you can see that there's a new column uh called stage now the stages range from stage 0 1 and 2 and what this does is it basically describes what each um Layer Two what

stage each layer two is at now what are these stages well they were defined by a vitalik in his ethereum magician's post here and each of these stages are basically uh different uh different properties of the Rob so at stage zero a roll up or an L2 will have full training wheels they'll have like a centralized operator centralized sequencer they'll have admin Keys all that stuff there then stage one they'll have limited training wheels so there will be a running fraud proof of validity proof system the multi-sig will be uh stricter you know it'll be a six of eight or something like that and a bunch of other things here and then stage two is the ultimate stage where there is no training wheels there is no multi-seek or admin here or anything like that uh upgrades are allowed but it you know

they must have a delay of over 30 days and if there's a secure there's a security Council that has to follow these things but yeah those are the three stages here so you can check that out vitalik's post but on l2b you can actually see they've labeled every project that they can so far with different stages so you can see that arbitrum one is currently at stage one because they uh they have a fraud proof system but it is only open to whitelisted actors right now um and upgrades I'm related to on-chain provable bugs provide less than 30 days to exit and the security council's actions are not confined to on-chain provable bugs so this is giving you information about exactly what stage they're at here and not only is that is that quick overview available to you you can click

through and then you can actually see which requirements each roll-up is actually meetings you can see stage zero all four requirements were met stage one five requirements are met and then stage two for arbitrine one three issues need fixing so this is actually an amazing amazing resource here on l2b this is great because not only does this give you a quick overview on on the parent page here of what stage it's at but it also breaks down exactly what stage each project is at and you can actually see that pretty much uh only two of the Roll-Ups right now are at stage two which is the stage that we want every Rob to be at and that's degate and fuel V1 now of course both of these are very small right now D gate is only got 2.6 million dollars of TBL fuel v1's only

got 452 dollars of um of tvl so it's not really gonna gonna anything to write home about there but if we start seeing you know the top Roll-Ups here going to stage one and then stage two it's a really positive sign because it means that these roll-offs are obviously becoming more decentralized and secure and users can have uh very great uh very good I guess um certainty over uh using them and using them as they're meant to be not using them as kind of like centralized chains that really uh at the whim of the of the core team but but actually inheriting ethereum security and decentralization properties and decentralizing themselves here so just really really great to see that uh I I I I really like this new feature from

l2beat you can go check out their website and click through to each of these stages yourself and of course you can check out vitalik's original if you're a magicians Pro TR to see what this was all about to begin with all right knext has announced that metamask has integrated with it uh so users can now Bridge via their via the metamask portfolio app and the metamask browser extension natively so great to see the connects being integrated into more uh I guess like wallets here obviously metamask being the biggest web 3 wallet right now supports a bunch of different evm chains out of the box uh very easy to use and everyone loves uh using it well loves using it as maybe a subjective thing because I I personally

don't mind using it but at the same time it is definitely not a wallet that is uh that is uh something that is going to lead to mass adoption it are definitely not a beautiful wallet it's just a very functional wallet but not something that is like rainbow uh for example or or some of those other mobile wallets out there but still it is the most popular wallet a lot of people use it and connects integrating with it obviously is a very very big deal uh and something that we uh that's something that we should be happy about now I think that when it comes to these Bridges and Native Integrations and stuff like that it's kind of weird because I am a big believer in like these Bridge aggregators such as uh lee fire which I've talked about before and obviously I've disclosed reform that I'm that I'm

an investor in them but these Bridge aggregators the reason why I think that they're like I'm much more bullish on them than I am on something like a DEX aggregator is because of the bridge aggregator what it does is it basically brings all of these kind of like disparate liquidity uh from these Bridges uh together and gives you the path that you can use but the path that you can use isn't just based on liquidity it's based on the time as well because when you look at a decentralized exchange aggregator usually depending on the fee you pay you're going to get the same execution time of like a block or two from any Decks that you use even if you're using an aggregator right um except if you're using something like cow swap but I'm talking just the normal Dex this year not the not the Mev resist

indexes or something like cow swap I'm talking the normal dexes whereas with a bridge aggregator there are different bridges that have different speeds so for example the native Bridge into arbitrary optimism might take 10 or 15 minutes whereas another Bridge may only take like five minutes or less than five minutes right so with the aggregator this is going to show you exactly how long these things are going to take and exactly what the fee is going to be and and what you're going to be left with on the other side of of what you're bridging to so I think that's that's a key difference there I think that's what makes Bridge aggregators so important is showing the user the time because at the end of the day there is there can be big differences between these because it can be up to an hour for some of these Bridges right

just depends which one you're using so I think that's why it's it's important for bridge aggregators to to to basically be integrated with these things and I don't know if le5 is natively integrated with metamask I know that metamask might have its own Bridge aggregator I'm not sure I remember seeing something about that somewhere um but regardless of that it's still cool to see them integrate natively with Bridges themselves because connects as I mentioned the other day is not just a bridge it's it well what they're trying to build is a whole kind of like a cross layer cross chain ecosystem where you have a native cross-channing cross layer apps that you can use and having that natively integrated into walls is obviously a bigger plus here so anyway you can go check this out I'll link in the YouTube description below uh the last thing I want to talk about was uh

something unfortunate that you've probably all heard about by now um but for those of you who don't know who Zack xbt is he's been around for quite a while on crypto Twitter now and he is very well known and famous for exposing a lot of the scammers and and grifters in the crypto ecosystem now of course by doing this he opens himself up to a lot of personal risk and and liability here because he is Anon but at the same time he's not where it's very easy to actually know who he is uh and uh because he's not like totally a anion he hasn't uh his identity is um he's known if you want to find it which is unfortunate for him um but as you've probably all seen by now uh uh one of the I guess people that he exposed Jeff wihang or matchy big

brother has sued Zac xbt for defamation here so you can see Zack's threat here Link in the YouTube description below if you haven't seen it yet but essentially uh uh what matches suing Zach for his defamation saying that Zach basically uh um uh uh you know called out Machi for these scams and griffs and match it denies that any of them are scams and griffs uh which I mean you know I'm not gonna make a judgment call here because I don't want to get myself sued or anything like that but honestly I read to Zack's threads about matchy and it seems like Zach didn't really defame him in my opinion it seems like he really just put the evidence out there um and it seems like the evidence is pretty damning against Machi here but I

guess like the fact that this is going to court we're going to see all this stuff coming out in Discovery uh and yeah because it's going to court Zach obviously uh needs to be able to hire lawyers and and legal costs in the US are definitely not cheap here unfortunately so Zach has set up a donation address CR and eth address uh and it's I think there's over one million dollars donated to him so far which I mean the the legal cost can usually run up to that amount so so hopefully that'll be enough for him to cover his legal costs but I think more donations are going to roll in over time obviously and you can donate to him if you want to there as well um but really this is a David and Goliath story as zax is here because uh Zach doesn't have that much money uh to

uh uh to defend himself yeah but Machi big brother is really really rich and I mean I think he has tens of thousands of eighth his net worth is huge so obviously he can afford to do this and obviously he's doing this as kind of like a personal thing because he thinks his name is being dragged to the mud or whatever but yeah we'll have to see how the case plays out um you know it's apparently there is um I don't know when this case is actually going to play out but yeah there is going to be a discovery phase obviously everything's going to be aired out into the open I do wonder if if um if Machi is going to withdraw this lawsuit at some point um maybe because he didn't he didn't think that Jack would be able to defend himself and he would get like a default

judgment or something like that but yeah we'll have to see how this shakes out but I'll link Zack's thread in the YouTube description below for you to check out but on that note that's going to be it for today so thank everyone for listening and watching be sure to subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet give that video a thumbs up subscribe to newsletter join the Discord Channel and I'll catch you all tomorrow thanks everyone