Episode 353 - Making ZK More Human with ZK Email

Transcript

[Music] welcome to zero knowledge I'm your host Anna Rose in this podcast we will be exploring the latest in zero knowledge research and the decentralized web as well as new paradigms that promise to change the way we interact and transact [Music] online this week I chat with aush from ZK email he brings us up to date on the project since he was last on the show in 2023 sharing different ways in which the ZK email protocol is being used in the wild if you remember ZK email is a system by which you can use ZK to prove that you've received a specific email as

well as to prove things about the content of that email while the concept is quite simple the ways in which it's been applied have been really interesting ZK email can act as a bridge between web 2 systems systems like venmo Google and social media accounts with web 3 systems like payment rails and account management it has recently been used by existing wallets to provide account recovery it's been used to allow for anonymous chat with proven reputation and it's also been used in proving digital Providence this episode was an exploration of Novel ZK use cases one of my favorite topics to cover so I hope you enjoy now before we kick off I do want to just let you know about the

ZK Summit ZK Summit 13 is coming up it's happening on May 12th in Toronto this is the second time we bring the ZK Summit to North America the first being all the way back in 2019 when we did one in San Francisco if you've never been to a ZK Summit I definitely recommend checking it out this is the spot to find out about the latest research the newest applications to find out who are the most important players in ZK today it's also a wonderful way to get to know sort of the larger ZK Community the application to attend is now open links as always are in the show notes and I hope to see you there now Tanya will share a little bit about this week's sponsor you might already know of the ZK

jobs board a place where teams can share open roles with our community but when it comes to key hires finding the right fit in our Niche space can be difficult that's where Missing Link comes in they're a talent team built for the web 3 era helping projects across the ecosystem connect with the right candidates at the right time they've worked with names you'll recognize ethereum Foundation matter Labs Lio Mina web3 foundation and many more filling critical roles that drive these teams forward whether you're an established project looking to fill a senior leadership role or a startup searching for specialized talent to refine your product Market fit Missing Link can help they've done it for some of the biggest

teams in the space helping them and now you find the right people fast for more details check check out the show notes and visit their website at missing-link doio so thanks again missing link and now here's our [Music] episode today I'm here with aush from ZK email welcome back to the show yeah glad to be back I'm so glad we get a chance to catch up again you were on the show back in December 2023 there we were talking about two projects ZK login and ZK email we were kind of doing a comparison this time around we're going to obviously dive back into ZK email I'm so excited to hear about what's happened

since we did that interview but also I hope we get a chance in this to continue that exploration on ZK applications you and I have been on a couple panels in the last year where we started to explore that I also recently had the cursive folks on the show so I feel like this is a bit of an episode in in that Spirit that's awesome let's do it but let's start actually with a bit of ZK email and maybe a little bit of your own background what were you doing right before Z email and what have you been doing since you were last on so I guess maybe to recap a little bit also was kind of we mentioned this briefly in the last episode but uh I guess you know before ZK email I was mostly at MIT working on cryptog taking cryptography classes working on

cryptography research um my Master's thesis was this thing called like plume nullified which I worked on with Kobe so that became ERC 7524 I think um which I think that's a new update from from last time maybe um and so now it's like a standard and and a bunch of people have implementation that I think Mina has implementation Aztec has implementation like it's it's really useful for these like ZK Focus companies to say hey you can have Anonymous accounts on our system directly so um it's been quite cool to see the adoption after we like got like an official ERC right so I I did a bunch of plume stuff and then I was just exploring zero knowledge apps uh and then at the zerx park summer residency in 2022 some pry and I came up with the idea of you know

oh what if we can make proofs of signatures and what's the most common signature today oh probably emails and um we kind of cooked up an MVP in a week sort of worked uh and then you know over the next few months we refined it and then uh I actually I don't think I told the story last time I was on you know we had implemented the initial version in circom and it was kind of okay but it was like a little bit slow and you know maybe the ccom version took us like you know four or five months to pull off and the initial Z regist compiler and things like that um but we we really wanted fast client side proofs and so we were we were looking at to Halo 2 and I was you know back then Noir didn't really exist and so I was you know I was I was

looking up Halo 2 and how to do all these different circuits like RSA and sha and I found a hackam d online from you know this Japanese kid named Sora who you know become very relevant soon and and he just written about how to do Halo 2 RSA and I read this hackam D and I was like oh my God this answers all the question that I've been thinking about the last like two weeks and so I dm'd him cool uh and our our first call was maybe like you know 5 10 minutes long it was like that was kind of like the the limit of Cu he he like living in Japan like he wasn't really speaking English much and so we'd like after five minutes we were like well that's kind of the limit of our our comprehension right now and so you know Vivic was like well

is this really going to work is this not um Vivic from cursive was I'd like Li them for many years and then you know Sora and I kept calling week after week and then eventually our calls you know became an hour two hours and we just started like really working together quite well wow um and then you we finally met up in person 3 months later at the Vietnam residency PSC ran and then you it was like he was like fluent in English it was like great we we started working super well together and so then we were like well it makes sense to kind of you know start doing this together and so we we sort of started running this ZK email as like a much like more kind of professional thing and not like okay just like one guy hacking in his room or something yeah but did

you just say like Sora had perfect English when you met him like did did he not have perfect English before like how did he fix that like I I so so basically so I I asked him so like when we first called it was it was only 5 or 10 minutes cuz we just didn't have that much comprehension and I I asked him at the Vietnam residence I was like it's been like 4 months how did you go from like you know being able to hold a five minute conversation to like being able to converse quite fluently like okay now I totally understand you but and it's kind of I asked him and he was like I learned ZK by listening to ZK podcast and watching watching watching ZK videos on YouTube and talking to to you every week oh wow like talking talking to me

every week but we did did he fix his English through that too like or just he learned all of the jargon yeah so it was kind of like also just a general structure of English I think he was able to pick up on am and so I was like that's that's so great cool so ZK email kind of back to that story you at this point you were there was two of you and you were kind of building into a real project how has it been funded up and actually then and now yeah so all the way from then to now it's it's been almost like 90% plus like almost entirely by ethereum Foundation psse like privacy and scaling Explorations group yeah and so that's really interesting because they are kind of this like hybrid focused on like weird research weird products that people

aren't necessarily thinking about that take a lot of upfront investment in technology and research to be able to even get to the next level and the other cool thing there's a ton of other projects that use the tech that we built within PSA there's a lot of like great collaborations like you know we we built these like RSA circuits these sha circus there Rex all in ZK and and a lot of other projects use it and then you know we collaborate on certain things like for oh like you know verifiable oblivious sudit random function like VFS um are super useful for a ton of different projects and we kind of like some from R team collaborating for someone from from PSC uh to build those and so it's just like a really cool wholesome like research group would you say like I mean in that group I I think

in that group there's like the TLs notary folks is that true is ZK this is actually a question ZK email and TLS not Le is there some overlap between what you guys are doing have you shared any or is it really just like sort of clustered in a similar yeah I feel like they're often used in tandem or like at least the ZK TLS is often grouped together with Z email and so now I've been I like yeah I wonder if I've confused things a little bit there just because you're from the same group totally so so I so I mean I I talk to the TLs notary guys like almost every month or or more so so one thing is that TLS notary doesn't necessarily have like ZK as we know like circom circuits like that kind of thing they they have like you know primarily my understanding is

that it's like an MPC assumption so so it's kind of you know that that the trust kind of comes from you and the notary doing an NPC key together and then the notary basically says yes this information went through me and here's some here's like I'm I'm going to redact something or the other but you're kind of fundamentally like like you for instance when these system are deployed in the wild they can't say oh any notary can make a proof because then you know somebody could just be a not with themselves and make a proof and post it and now they've bypassed the system and they can post fake information and say wouldn't call ZK TS I never like the name it's notc TLS um and so yeah we coordinate with them and I would say there's like some overlap like for instance I want to

eventually incorporate ZK Rex once it's kind of like really friendly on these these large you know HTML bodies and they we like kind of collaborate on okay what is the direction of like like do people like Chrome extensions do people like if frames like there's kind of similar sorts of questions um but I would say they're they're different in the sense that it's it's like we've learned some things from each other but it they're they're still totally different user flows right like for stands for for the TLs notary NPC TLS version they are often going to either have like an app or an applet like something they download and they sign into their account and then they fetch the information or it'll be like an iframe that they you know sign in the iframe and then fetch their information or it'll be they have a Chrome extension

that fetches information like zkp has a pure Chrome extension but it's kind of like I think with ZK email I think my focus has always been like okay how do we make this like as few clicks as possible like if you can just have a one click sign in with email it fetches all the emails for you you know you select them you prove or you even just reply to an email like I I've kind of always liked that okay one it's like totally decentral we don't have to like you know allow list like a certain set of notaries to interact with the smart contract or with the system we can say look anybody can upload the email and as long as it has a right signature is good enough and so I've always kind of liked that it was a little bit a little bit

more decentralized and a little bit more trustless to do the ZK email thing um there's there's trade-offs of course like with with email you're restricted to information in your email relevant to your email address which let not you can kind of call any API and that's a tradeoff you're making I and actually I think there's there's this like neat kind of overlap which is called signed exchanges this is something actually I think Vivic from cursive and Jason from Ezekiel found and told me about originally which is basically there was this like standard where people did a signature on top of websites and this was an asymmetric signature so you could prove it exactly the same way you prove ZK email and this is quite cool because I think there's a couple random websites like Forbes Italy for instance uses sxg um and and there's like a new version of

this RFC like RFC I believe 9741 and these kind of give you asymmetric signatures and websites which you can then use to get you know ZK email like assumptions on a TLS notary style website wow and so that's pretty exciting to me it's just the problem is not a lot of websites use it and so that one of I went to ietf last year because I was like oh like can we push more asymetric signature standard because then we don't have emails we can have lots of other stuff I think we should probably for our audience Define a little bit more Z email we've just talked a little bit about where it lives in the larger ecosystem and how it connects to these things but yeah let's let's revisit ZK email and how it works from maybe a user's perspective like when they're using something that might

use ZK email under the hood what are they actually getting yeah that's a great question so basically the idea is that ZK email lets you prove any sent or received email prove that the sender actually sent that email because there an RSA signature that the sender domain will generate and then redact information as they wish from the body of the email or from the content of the email address and so you could imagine something like maybe I've received an email from and this is a zkp top case maybe I've received an email from venmo and it says you know congratulations you sent $5 to Anna and I say cool um I don't want to reveal you know my name or my address maybe or or my handle but I do want to reveal that I sent $5 to Anna

and so I can kind of take that email redact all the information out I don't want to reveal prove certain things okay yes it says you know from I to Anna for $5 um and then I can send that on chain and then now you know the way ZK P2P kind of V1 worked was you take this email you ESO some money and then the money can only be unlocked once either party provides the email saying yes the money's been transferred and maybe we should say like when you say prove you're not proving to the person you sent the money to you're proving in this case to a Smart contract so you could be proving to anybody so so you could be proving offchain you could be proving to any third party you could be proving to a Smart contract um but yeah I mean the

person you're sending the information to doesn't really need this redacted proof because they have all the information already and so the idea is that the person you sent it to can then take that email and prove it to whoever else they want which could be a blockchain which could be another individual or company or whatever and it's it's a very simple concept actually just proving that something you've received an email proving something about that email and it it sounds almost like boring or something it's like oh like well okay like emails like what's kind of exciting about that and then you think about it a little bit and you're like wait like there's a record like receipts of our entire life are in our emails like every service we use is in our email every sign in we do is in our email every event we go to there's some sort of

confirmation in our email everything we buy we often get an email and it's a crazy record of a person's history when you describe this it start I mean emails start to sound like signatures so in this case like is is the email a signature or does the email have a signature associated with it yes okay so this is a great question this was something that I didn't know until I started looking into signatures but basically to do spam prevention uh all emails sent to received since you know roughly 2016 2018 have a deim signature in them and this is used because you want to say well you know if Anna from ZK podcast sent me an email uh I need to verify that you know ZK podcast actually sent this email is not some sper um and

so the idea is that what happen is the sender domain will have some public private key for an RSA private key every single email server in the world and that RSA private key will sign every single outgoing email with a digital signature like an asymmetric digital signature of the content of the email and that's like incredible the fact that that exists is is totally insane and and now like for instance with Gmail if you receive an email that doesn't have this deom signature on it it'll just get bounced and so every single email has to have the signature and that's what makes email so special is that you know they they have this kind of chain of Providence that you can trace back and then prove and this is really the case for you know for instance like telegram or signal like you don't get these kind

of digital signatures and I think that's that's quite special this makes me think I mean just going through that that case again where you'd you'd be like basically relying on having received an email from a certain person from a place like in the case of the venmo example it's like it has to come from venmo it's the venmo automated emails that say you've made a transaction it's basically what you're playing on in that particular case but I mean we've also especially lately just seen this like crazy influx of spam emails that have gotten around some of those things that you just described like how many docu signs are you getting you know I don't know if you've received this one but like the oh your your document is ready or whatever and it's from like random

email but then sometimes even the emails themselves are the correct email like they've somehow done some intercept is that affected like would that affect the ZK email system like are there ways that yeah the the way that spammers are gaming email like would that also game this yeah it's good question there's kind of two main ways that people get around these email filters one is uh you know if you look at like the Defcon talks for instance like you know the Las Vegas security conference a lot of the people who who report okay like some email vulnerability what they're doing is inherently they're disabling the deim check they're trying to say you know we're going to turn off deom somehow and get around the system because we obvious don't have the private key we can't

gener a fake signature but we can at least try to turn it off and this is kind of why Gmail very recently implemented this change where they're like we no you need a DM signature which kind of disabled a lot of those attacks and the other question is you know for instance with the DocuSign emails it's it's always being sent from like a specific whatever info@ docusign.com or something yeah and then the question becomes how does DocuSign verify your email address because the deom signature is still going to be from Doc you know it's an email from docy but when Doc is like okay Anna has sent you a document um you know they need to verify okay you're actually Anna and the question is are they doing that correctly and so it sounds like you know what's happening email still SEC can still say DocuSign

said that this ID sent you some document but the question is you know is DocuSign doing that verification correctly you have to be a little bit careful about these guarantees like the email itself is valid you can prove the sender is valid but you know the content in the email you have to figure out to what extent can a user manipulate that am I parsing information that's really being verified correctly and so you do have to be a little bit careful when you're you know defining these values and I think you have to be careful in any kind of verifiable system I think this kind of holds you should be careful about the assumptions I do also want to give like I want sort of caveat the docy sign example because a lot of those are actually really terribly done they're just like pictures of what a docy sign

normally looks like they're not from DocuSign at all so I don't want to like say that that company is responsible for these for these another another useful thing is that like you know if you check the domain and it's a from docusign.com yeah then you know it's at least coming from the real company and if the Deon signature verifies you know it must have come from the real company and then the question is you know does the body of the email look like a document that you actually asked to sign no for sure but yeah I do I do know that it's becoming more sophisticated and so here there is like going back to the venmo example like if venmo somehow had its emails like intercepted or like if there's some way that someone's able to send out those like automated emails through them then obviously like ckp top would be

affected but you're talking about an attack at sort of another level right so so this you know if you then got an email it looked like it was from docin it was actually from docin do fake url.com or something then you know the deom signature would fail because you would you would you would check against the docy public King you like wait a second this doesn't pass and you wouldn't be able to gener proof it you know you wouldn't see a verified check from from doc.com and you would be able to detect that and that's what kind of what deom gives you out of the box is like this kind of spam prevention domain validation process and we almost like hijack that for ZK email nice we've mentioned the ZK P2P example I actually want to just highlight that they've the the team behind ZK P2P have been on the

show I'm going to add a link to that in the show notes it was also a project that came out of ZK hack Lisbon our first hackathon so that was kind of cool too since then this is back in 2023 that I think they first started to use the email have there been any other projects that have emerged using ZK email under the hood yeah there were a bunch so I guess so after we kind of did our initial email wallet launch at devc connect um where the idea was you could kind of send tokens to any email address or receive tokens from any email address without necessarily even having account on the system uh and the idea behind this was okay like you know what if your email was kind of the way that you logged into your blockchain account and then we kind of went one step further

was like you know what if your wallet like your blockchain wallet looked exactly and felt exactly like a bank you know you signed in with your email when you need to send a live transaction they'll check in with you hey are you sure you want to send a million dollars to this person you have to confirm over email when you lose your account you can recover your account with the reset password flow which is fundamentally going back to your email asking you to confirm resetting your password and so kind of these three main things of look logging with email TFA confirmation with email and email based account recovery sort of became then our main focuses was hey like how do we really make wallets intuitive for new users um and you know if you're storing maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars okay go use like a

hardware wallet maybe don't be using you know your email for all that security but at least for intro users or for users who haven't neily interacted with the system before we thought that it would be like a quite intuitive way to to use these systems and so you know one of our big focuses at that point was focusing on these ideas and specifically email recovery and so that we ended up launching with a couple of groups one was with soul wallet now called elro um one was with clave wallet um that launched on mainnet fairly recently that's cool so you you're providing basically using sort of the ZK email concept you're providing the uh account recovery but are you recovering the other things as well or just really the account recovery is the main the idea is

that the owner of the smart wallet gets rotated so in clay for instance you have like a a pass key signer and that holds all of your assets in one place and the idea is that you would rotate the signer on that wallet instead of being one pass key to being some other Pas key um and you know now with 772 which is this new EIP which basically says look any eoa account can be connected to a Smart contract and be a smart wallet itself you don't need to NE necessarily have a pasy wallet now we could even stick in Z account recovery into like basically any wallet which would be quite cool so that's something we're we're also looking forward to cool like is there anything like zkp top or did zkp top start to use you in in different ways so zkp top also started to use this in in

quite interesting and diverse ways one way it was like a domain Marketplace so the idea is that you know all these emails you receive and your inbox every time you like do some kind of transfer you can build a Marketplace on top of them so one cool thing they explored was hey name chep sends you emails when you send a domain to somebody and they just built a Marketplace on top of that so now the idea is that you can send e directly to a Smart contract and then you know you Esco it for this domain and then the person try to The Domain both of you get the confirmation email either of you can upload it and now the Esco automatically release them so it doesn't have to just be onramp offramp you can make Commerce on top of any system that sends you a confirmation email which is

crazy yeah and these like these already exist like there are these centralized portals that act as you know like they'll basically the middleman when you need to do a purchase with a digital URL or something like that you're trying to get it but you don't want to pay the money until you for sure received it but they don't want to send it to you until they for for sure receive the money I know a couple of them actually just in domain sales yeah that's so cool though in this case you're you're just using like a you're basically cutting out that middleman exactly so you can get rid of that that third party Esco service entirely that's you can make it trustless and decentralized and and peer-to-peer and yeah and you can do that for all sorts of things actually right it's super exciting to think about

and and the really cool thing is that as long as name Che is running you can't like kind of stop a transaction like it's kind of like it's it's sort of this like Marketplace that will that will keep on running and I think it's kind of you know this isn't necessarily the case if you're going to build a system for instance on top of like a TS notary base system because you have to basically say okay these are the five notaries that are allowed to make proofs um and so you know if if those five notaries go down well then you know you might have money or domain stuck in the system and so I think it's it's really quite important to think about the trust assumptions of the system you're deploying and say hey is this really going to be robust in the long term yeah so with those examples is

it mostly just the wallet recovery or is there like other benefits that you're also offering using ZK email yeah so I think we were really iterating through like what this entire user life cycle looks like and so we shipped a bunch of really cool tools that people can use as like kind of ready sdks one is like when you log in you maybe don't want to give every app you log in to access to all of your assets kind want system we bu uh to crypto specific hey I'm going to myemail but I I don't trust this website very much so I only want to give it 10 usdc worth of access for a day and so the idea is that when you log in you'll be permissioning a local public private keypad like this kind of session key almost to have

scoped access to your account and this is kind of a new way of thinking about Oath almost in the Contex of crypto but with the same kind of interface that you're used to for email based oath and I thought that was kind of a exciting way to think about okay like how do you make your interaction with websites more safe like it's very upfront what the permissions are that you're giving so that was quite cool and then in order to confirm transactions one cool thing is uh we built this thing where you can use emails directly as signers on safe and idea is you can literally add an email address to your multisig and then now when when anybody triggers a transaction for on that multisig your email will get an email saying hey are you sure you want to make this transaction here's an

simulation that's independent of the front end uh you sure you want to do all these things there is or isn't a delegate call you know you should watch out for these things you reply confirm and then now you've confirmed that transaction you need that second transaction for that transaction to go through and that's particularly relevant right now because you know front ends are we saw this re recently is that front ends are are a vector of attack a real Vector of attack in crypto and and I think one way to prevent this is by having independent almost interfaces that people are interacting with you know multi- for instance like safe and and this you know in my opinion if they had had an email signer on that multi I I I think bit could have potentially caught the hack before it happened because it would have been an

independent transaction interesting are there any other examples of ZK email being used in the wild like other kind of paradigms that you've explored with this text act Ezekiel Amil a text act a library what is it actually is is it like a a service is it a concept yeah it's it's it's a good question so I would say with ZK email we've kind of tried to take the whole stack approach in the sense that I think it's important to think about on the Deep deeper research side like hey what does it look like to optimize proof system what does it look like to Define these V prfs what does it look like to you know invent rex compilers that work in ZK and on the other hand there's also product like I don't think you can iterate properly prioritized research unless you're also thinking about the

product side and so we kind of build the whole stack up okay we're going to do core research on ZK then we're going to build libraries that developers can use and that's our main focus out say the developer libraries and we're going to iterate on products with users so we know what to prioritize on the library side and on the research side and it kind of it's just like kind of endless loop that's kind of I think quite compelling how much is there so far cuz that's that's sort of like what you will be or what you are becoming but what are you now well I would say that is what we are today like we kind of do like we've done all this we we've published all these compilers we have all these sdks that people can use to do each of the things I just mentioned um and we know

we've audited all the ones that are currently being used in production we've audited we've had almost like four or five audits on ZK email and to end so it's like really like main net ready and then we've you know products like account recovery is really I would say like us us facing Deployable uh people can try it I would say you know email wallet user facing Deployable ZK PTP the marketplace like domain marketplaces you know products that are really deployed so so there are two or three interesting other directions I want to talk about which is you know one how do you think about logins that aren't triggered by email replies just general app logins two is how do you think about like Anonymous speech and whistleblowing and three is you know how do you think about proofs of emails already in your inbox and making those really quickly and

that's kind of what we built the registry for and and the Civil platform released last week so so maybe I'll go through each of these in order so cool cool you know email replies are one way to deal with emails and it's really nice because it's generic across all email providers all all emails but sometimes you know users it's slightly easier to sign in with Google and so the idea is when you sign in with Google they issue this thing called a Json web token or a JWT and this is basically you know Google issuing an asymmetric signature if you're doing a Gmail sign in you know out you're doing Outlook signin saying yes this user has logged in and and authorized that account so the really cool thing is with the exact same text tack as ZK email you can do these ZK JWT

proofs in your browser client side um and that allows you to kind of log into websites or even do slightly more interesting things with you know whistleblowing Anonymous speech and so you know okay on one hand you can use it to do all the things I mentioned before these wallet things with email sign-ins which is potentially a more intuitive UI for some people um but one of the more interesting things in my opinion is well you can do something like uh steal a jwbt login you use from any other site like for instance I can take my chat GP JWT and I can say hey um you can prove you know this website proved that I logged in on that site and now you know this website that you're going to go to to prove your Anonymous speech you can now take this chat jbt JWT and you can

make a ZK proof of it and now I can prove hey I have an mit.edu email or I have you know google.com email so therefore I work at Google or I have you know whatever at company email orwh house.gov email I work at the White House and now you can say something on behalf of that Institution um and that's quite cool because anous exactly totally anonymously in the past if you have Anonymous comments they're literally coming from who knows where and there's the only way to prove it is if you have a third party who's verifying like the journalist or the then you're also needing to trust that person and so you have these like anonymous tips here you'd have sort of like Anonymous but somehow verified it's quite cool um and the first iteration we

built of this was with the nosy team in December 2022 were like hey you can do this proof and we released a version that basically takes this this JWT from any other site un let you make a ZK proof of it and then use it on this discussion board site and that's quite exciting because the discussion board site now has no idea who logged in like they actually have no information about you which is pretty cool um and steal note is kind of the Noir version of this which you know we worked on with Cil at at Aztec and um who also you know used to be on the ZK email team and and that's kind of a kind of Sly faster client side version of doing that client side version of of that what are those what was the name of the first one like

the so the first one was nosy like no o Zee nosy YZ um no and what was that built with if it was not with nor so so that was built with circom clients that's it's actually fairly performant because we're under a million constraints you can do that like under 30 seconds in a browser client side which is super solid and now you've done a Noir one as well exactly and so now I mean I think you know once Noir is audited in three or four months I think these things will be really like ready to go um but Noir is quite exciting because you can drop these proofs down even in the browser by a factor of like almost 3 to 4X um which is pretty exciting that's pretty cool like I'm just trying to picture What It's Like on one of those boards though this is this

like a message board like a message message board like you're just like I'm I'm from this place but you don't know who I am I can verify that I'm from this place and I'm posting this comment right so there's a couple of ways to do this so one is like you build exactly you build a whole bespoke Forum Message Board where your IDs are identified by you know affiliations you could also for instance plug this into Twitter you could say I'm going to post this thing and along with it I'm going to include a ZK email proof that shows you know at the same time that I'm attesting to my you know whatever my identity I'm going to be attaching this message and kind of signing it at the same time and now you could even attach this to any speech you have anywhere on the internet will

automatically kind of embed that proof within that speech on Twitter so it's I think there's still a lot of exploration here that it is quite unexplored and I I think it's it's really cool to to see where that could go what are these though are like you haven't actually built them message Forum board you just have you built like the the structure that somebody could build it on top of or something so so nosy was an end to-end message board like you could kind of go in and comment and post and up vote and do all these things I think stealth note is similar you can go in comment post up vote um and it's it kind of is This integrative message board but I think it's more almost exciting to see how this interfaces with normal speech like you know if you interface with real

people who you kind of know on Twitter and now people are able to chime in um and you could also kind of take this one step further you don't even need to prove organization email you can say oh well I can take any ZK email proof I can say oh I was accepted into you know why comor batch this year and therefore I'm going to say this thing but I said no but how I can prove it exactly exactly or you could say oh like I got a term sheet from this person or oh I worked with this company and here's proof I did that from this email and now you can prove even more interesting statements than just you know your affiliation and then make statements on the half of that which is quite exciting so I think combining ZK email and the login proofs

that way is quite compelling cool um yeah because it's not only like I think it it was Anonymous speech makes it sound like it's sort of Silent private but actually it could be like totally public just guaranteed promise ex this is how you you can verify that I'm telling you the truth of my affiliation or what have you exactly I feel like this is so needed we I feel like we're a little bit behind like it's needed now but it's needed in like a mass sense and like understood and like packaged in a way that people understand and can easily use it themselves yeah and I think as more people like as we start seeing people post these on Twitter and people be like wait is this real or is this fake I do think that like there might be kind of this Tipping Point

where you know one particularly prominent person says one particularly prominent thing and then that people are like oh what is this and then we kind of tip the scale from people not understanding people being like oh maybe this is like a valid signal do you think this could also help with like impersonations um in what context like this idea of being able to prove that you are who you say you are prove that you're somehow coming from something I mean I think it is quite compelling right because for instance you know maybe somebody's trying to impersonate me on Twitter and bought a bunch of followers well now how you know which one is a real me well you know one of them only one of them can post a proof on my public email adds only one of them can prove they have an email from this

institution and so it is yeah it is a cool way to resolve impersonation I would say I say this because and actually like PSA to the audience almost like but we members of my team in the last month all like all of the team have been impersonated on Twitter and on Telegram and they've gone around actually asking people to come on the show like really confusing that's crazy to to have to it's not even like give us money like I don't really know what they want um but it's this is obviously like just made me think like wow we have these tools where we could possibly prove things but in order to actually integrated into like our accounts and make it like something that everyone could use I I think we're not quite there but I like that you're

working on it that's awesome given that you're exploring a lot of this stuff are there any other kind of Explorations for ways yeah like other paradigms yeah so so I would say there's there's two really exciting ones I'll start with the registry which which I briefly mentioned earlier um the idea that you know we we discussed a bunch okay like these kind of oneoff proofs but what if you know it was really easy to make a new kind of proof and update it as you went like this one of the lesson we learned from zkp is that people often change a few characters here and there and you want to be really easy to update and Define a new kind of proof oh yeah you mean characters in an email like emails change exactly the emails change and just ever so slightly yeah and so the

idea was you know what if you made it super easy like instead of having to write ZK circuits and choose oh do I want to use circom or Noir we make all those decisions for you and you we just say look you tell us you upload an example email you tell us you know who the sender is you tell us the text you want to parse out and it's a very simple it's like almost like a 10line configuration it's like a 5minute process on you know registry. zk. email and then will'll handle all the compilation to all the languages behind the scenes deploy end points for you you know make it really easy someone to use deploy a front end that anybody can sign with email and prove those emails for you um because they want it to be really easy for anybody to launch a kind of ZK

email proof and so this is something we actually end up doing with uh you know putting into production with Jupiter exchange two weeks ago was the idea that um you know well you kind of want to tell are people real people or not when they're for instance doing things in the crypto world that civil protection is like quite an important thing and so one thing they did is they flagged all of these Cil clusters and they're like hey we want to know who's real and who's not and so we went in and we were like hey provide either a centralized exchange email showing you did kyc on some centralized exchange um or provide an email showing you did human-like things like you ordered something on Amazon or you took an Uber or you ordered something on grab um and we added all these proofs in and we said okay either

prove two humanlike things or one kyc on centralized exchange and and it it was really cool because each of these proofs only took us like you know 5 10 minutes to Define um and then boom we had like 20 or 30 different kinds of emails people could use to prove their identity so cool um and people just go in they would either sign in with Google or upload the email file directly and then now they could prove that they were kind of a unique person and we would we would have people come to us and they would be like hey um I'm trying to verify all these emails and they're not working for all my accounts and we're like yeah that's the point you're only supposed to have one account per email right yeah and so people like it totally worked and and it was it was I was sort of shocked

with did almost like 5,000 proofs over the course of one week um like real ZK proofs of real ZK people like these aren't like you know these are like people who had to prove they did something in the real world these aren't like somebody who are Bing the system like that's like a really insane number to me so you're saying that we don't have to scan our eyeballs in order to prove that we're real people that's amazing I'm so happy I mean look I I I think I don't want to like speak poorly of world coins approach I do think there is like Merit to to saying look even somebody without any email adders without any digital footprint like displays people can still prove their human I think that's still a compelling idea I just think it we want to give people all sorts of different ways to do

it if somebody doesn't want to scan their eyeball then there should be a way for them to prove their humanity and somebody you know if only if scanning eyeball is the only way somebody can do that I think they they should have the option to do that yeah so so it's it's been quite cool because you know yeah we launch this thing 5,000 real ZK email proofs in in a week is is crazy and and we see all these kind of hackers that aren't that familiar with ZK email putting up these new proofs like we see people put up like a oh you know I got accepted to to speak at Devcon or oh I like you know got h of this residency or I merged a PR into GitHub or I have a Netflix account or I deleted my ticket master account um this is one cool like

one ticketing site want to say oh if you delete your ticket master account then you get a discount on our site or whatever which is kind of fun um or wow you know and and one really cool idea you can do here is is taking back control of your data like you can say hey like I'm gonna trigger a data export from say Amazon or something and then I'm going to prove with my Amazon emails yes I actually those orders and then now I can sell that data directly to uh say you know machine learning companies who are going to train and model on this data and I can get paid for my data directly instead of you know Amazon who took my data and then made money off of selling it and that's really cool this like data Reclamation idea um that by proving it's yours because you know you

have to export your own data VI your email um you can reclaim it and and you can make the money off of it not the platform which is quite exciting nice so the reg she lets us verify you know emails we have from keys made recently Keem are ver arived or exist anywhere and so one thing we poured a lot of effort into is building almost like the archive.org for public key infrastructure like hey how can we back up all of these old deim keys so in the future if you want to verify an email you can do that on an old key um and and one problem is there's these keys that are lost of time from before we started this project like for instance you know uh Hillary

Clinton's email Le if you try to graph it and verify all those emails you know a good chunk of them something like half of them don't verify when you say that don't verify what does that mean it just means like that you can't guarantee that those are real don't verify meaning we literally don't know the public key um and so you know all this the signature is there the hash are still there everything works but we just don't know the verification public key why would that be why is that the way that the reason this is because the public key has posted a DNS like they'll they'll post it on some DNS record which is usually like selector doain key. you know gmail.com or whatever and the idea is that that rotates so after like 6 months or a year they rotate it's because it's out of date somehow it's

because it's out of date and now that the old record is gone forever and so you know one question is is there even a way to verify these old emails and one really cool thing you can do is you can take two old RSA signatures do this gcd like algorithm on them and then reverse engineer what that public key should have been wow which is crazy and so what we were able to do is reverse engineer public Keys all the way back back from like the first time Gmail ever implemented dkim and now we have all these old public keys that were previously lost to time um and we ran this massive scrape over tons of different domains and we have I think over a million Keys now in this archive like I'm willing to say this is probably the biggest public key archive on the

internet um of like these deim email Keys which is crazy did you go back and try to check the Hillary Clinton emails yeah yeah we went by back and tried to verify a bunch of the emails and now like a bunch of them do verify which is crazy wow um weird yeah so it's it's super cool it's like and this is like really useful even outside totally outside of crypto it's like hey like you know a lawyer could be like Oh I'm G to bring this case of trial and I want to prove this thing happened and I have this email um and previously they wouldn't be able to verify that it was it was actually sent and now they can which is super cool that's so cool you and I have been on two panels in the last year I sort of mentioned it at the

beginning of the episode one was at the modular Summit and one was at the ZK Summit 12 right the one at the modular Summit did not have enough people there it was such a good panel but not enough people in the audience um I'm going to add a link in the show notes I I've been sort of plugging this video over the year because I thought we it was it was just basically a conversation about possible applications um and then second at ck2 did get a better audience bigger audience and that was very cool as well in those we did spend a lot of time actually talking about the cursive cases like digital phermones and narrow casting and and I just recently did an episode with them which I'll add in the show notes as well for folks who want to listen to that but I thought maybe we

could continue a little bit in that thread I mean you've already just in what youve just shared with like how ZK email could be used you've shared all these really interesting like rethinking the power of email to like do a lot more than we we thought it could I really like that but yeah why don't we kind of continue on that thread is there anything that is yeah outside of purely what ZK email can do that you've been thinking about yeah so I think the the broader version of ZK email is like you know can you ZK verify digital signatures or can use digital signatures for General Providence ideas you know one of the ways we explored a lot of these you know digital signatures and what they can be used for is at the signature Singularity residency that we did last year in May 2024 in Osaka this

is something that Vivic from cursive and I Coan we've been friends for many years and and have been wanting to do this for a while and at The Residency there were ton of really exciting weird explorations of people who just took a month to explore you know ideas that hadn't really necessarily been tried before um so you know some some example you know ideas where you know for instance one digital signature that's underutilized is the signature called appest which is basically you can kind of prove that an app binary ran correctly on your phone what would that prove right so exactly for instance on on my phone I can prove hey I called the camera API and took a picture and then I called a location API and got a location and as long as you trust that this phone wasn't you know deeply jailbroken or you

know somehow compromised in some other way um you can prove that you you executed some sequence of actions on an app and there's a digital signature signed by Apple or Android or whatever saying yes you know these instructions were executed on this phone now you can prove hey I took this F this photo at this location with this metadata and did this other thing in this app and and you can basically like prove that you you took some actions in an app which is really interesting in my opinion that's also a little scary what you just described though for surveillance like I guess here you're thinking of it as optional right like you would prove optionally to say like I have done these of course it would be a user opin thing is like the user is going to take this picture and prove yes it came from some

place and you know this is you know I think also relates to some of the ZK passport work is that you know you can now prove hey not only am I going to verify the NFC signature on the passport which by the way has you know as signatures in them um but also I'm going to verify that you know the person standing right in front of you just took a picture on the phone and that the face matches and you can do this almost like zkl like face matching which is also quite interesting and a project that somebody explored at this uh residence yeah I feel like generally in the ZK application experimentation space it seems like there's two categories that I'm seeing one is where ZK or and when I say ZK I'm using the Royal ZK all the kind of programmable cryptography you're

using it to to mimic emulate existing systems where there's possibly a third party and you're trying to get rid of them I think throughout this episode we've talked about a lot of examples of that where there there may be actually systems that exist that in the world today but they're using some Oracle or some person or some entity that's going to be verifying and then we can use instead programmable cryptography to replace that person but then I think there's also these examples where it's really more out there and I I think you've also shared a few examples like that where we don't have an existing Paradigm and I I think that's the space that feels like the greenest field I feel like there's so much still to explore there I'm really happy that you're looking into this stuff I'm

really happy that the Cur guys are looking into this stuff if you have more recommendations for people I should speak to who are looking into this kind of stuff I I would love to talk to them but I also I think it's really hard to do like because it's so you don't know yet like you know some of the qualities of what this cryptography gives you some of the benefits some of the outcomes some of the paradigms but you don't really know how larger uses of this in certain contexts would actually like play out how are you even thinking about this stuff like how do you approach these are they sort of like trial and error are you sort of like forging a slow path and you're exploring kind of close to what you've already explored and then you're seeing it draw you further or have you actually just spent

time brainstorming with your roommates or something like trying to come up with these weird ideas or is it like sci-fi that helps I don't know I mean sci-fi is great I think that that's how you kind of think about the future a lot um I the way that I'm personally thinking about these these ideas is that ZK at least to me is most powerful when paired with digital signatures and the question becomes what digital signatures exist and you can kind of almost constrain your audiation space like well I see is a digital signature for instance on credit card when you talk about credit cards you had an EMV signature now what can we do with that and you think about well you know maybe we could build like a marketplace now on top of you're directly using credit card to pay for something you verify credit card

directly or oh the passport case what wait a second there's ASM signature on passports how can you use that you can kind of think about oh there's Ace mat signature on apps how can we use that and it's kind of at least the way that I've been thinking about so far is okay how can we find Ace sign in the wild and then how can we make proof of those in ways that are you know provent and interesting and and wrapped in ZK and then you know what do we want to anonymize or prove on chain or whatever and you kind of think from those ideas and so that's at least how I've been approaching a lot of the ideation here um and and you can but you can also almost like Design Systems that have these signatures built in so one of the examples I've been thinking about

recently is you know podius which is the idea that in a world with super ADV AI systems like generative AI systems how do we like what is the role now of cryptography and ZK um and I think you know one argument that people have made is oh well AI is the most interesting thing does cryptography really matter anymore and I would actually say to that like in a world with AI cryptography is the one of the only things that matters now for your humanity is because that's one of the few things that a large language model or that a hug system cannot do they literally cannot come up with a fake signature from your account but they can almost anything else unless they break it all well I mean that but that's that's the cool thing right that

these proofs are like you know 256 bits are are impossible you have to like use more atoms than the you know whatever like the I don't know what the number is exactly but it's like it's like a you have to use an insane like computational power that we order the magnitude off on Earth to be able to break these systems and it's not something that these systems can do anytime soon and so the idea is that hey like if cryptography is now so vitally important how can we use that to start already either offsetting the harms of or interacting with these AI systems um and and and you know we've already seen one example okay proving your Humanity you could prove you did something in the real world that an AI system wouldn't be able to get a receipt of um but you know can we this one step

further and I guess one idea that I was thinking of with some friends is like hey what does Providence look like when for generated content like for instance if you have a camera taking a picture how do you prove that it was a camera taking a picture versus an AI generating an AI image at the point when these these almost look indistinguishable and there's been a couple of really exciting approaches here like one is you know Dan B proof of transformation where you know him and some PhD students figured out hey you know you can prove that you did some edits in Photoshop and therefore that uh you make a proof of all those edits and you prove the image was transformed but you know in my opinion like a lot of these edits aren't going to happen inside of a ZK editor that that almost seems like a little

Farfesh to me like I think we and we've even tried to build those and they're they're pretty it's like it's like you like you want this to work with photo on day one you want this to work with you know Instagram filters I doubt Instagram filters are ever going to add ZK Provence um and so it's kind of like how do you think about you know as a start image Providence in a world of you know Mass information where you really want to know what's real and what's not and one idea is well what if these image providers generated a signature on top of the image and so this is what ctpa was trying to explore was Hey what if we just signed the raw pixels of the image and cameras would sign it and AI model would sign it and that's how people would map it back and the problem was

this is not really a robust solution because okay you sign the raw pixels and then now you post the image to Twitter well Twitter compresses it and now the signature and the metadata is wiped and the signature is wrong um and there's no way to verify it and so ideally you want to sign some property of this generate content that's not going to change even if you make modifications to the image how what what could that be so so in in you know cryptography land we have this concept of like a hash of like hey we have this value we hash it and that's going to be the same as long as the value is the same but imagine we had this kind of fuzzy hash where it was like oh well if the images changes a little bit the hash is mostly the same

and it stops being a cryptographic hash and now become more of like a kind of like a ml embedding kind of hash like a you know like a representation of that image for instance so so so what what we did is we looked at there's there's a bunch of these perceptual hashing algorithms that are called hashes that maintain similar while images are perceptually similar and are different when images are perceptually different um and the idea is is uh there were a couple of these that that were developed in the past there's kind of like so one very simple example you can think of is Imagine taking an image and then downscaling it to like a grid of like four pixels by four pixels and then making it gray scale right and now that like take each of those values and that's like one example hash right this

is like oh like you know I've you know if the image even if it was cropped by a couple pixels even if the color changed a little bit probably this down scale grayscale version would look almost the same yeah right and but the idea is that you want to support much more complex transformation than that you want to support you know mask color changes you want to support cropping you want to support compression you want to support all these different ideas so the idea is you're going to take this image you're going to generate an embedding then we're going to convert this embedding with another model into like you know a number of bits maybe 26 bits and then now the idea is you want to be able to privately match these images when you see them online so for instance you know you don't want all of your camera images

uploaded online but you're may be okay with you know homomorphically equiped versions of these perceptual hatches uploaded online and so what we did is we built this like kind of FHA system um on top of Phantom Zone and lattigo where you can take these uh perceptual hashes as they are and then uh you know homeomorphically encrypt them to a system that's then going to look them up on any query image so I can see an image online I canally hash it I can send it to the system I can say hey dear FH machines do you see this image anywhere in your database and they'll say yes this image looks very similar to one generated and uploaded by open AI 3 months ago this image looks very similar to one generated by that camera from that New York photographer two days ago and they can kind of map both Providence

and timing and image similarity in a way that's private on both ends where the system doesn't learn all the Genera images that are being checkpointed in this database and doesn't even learn the user's image um and so I thought that was like quite a compelling idea of hey you can actually have Providence now over these generated images or ideas and tell hey like is this was it generated or not and it worked across social media people can post it image can be modified and you can still tell oh is this the image that was signed by that organization it's without trying to ZK each transformation which pretty intensive ex exactly you don't have to ZK each transformation that's so cool what's the ZK part in there though that's that's like modeling isn't that more like just ml stuff you mentioned the hashing right so so one is ml coming

up with this kind of hash that's not really cryptographic hash but like a hash one is FH of this matching system and one is when the FH system returns hey this are generated by open AI you don't want to reveal the original perceptual hat of the original gener image because that might for instance lead to leakage or someone kind reverse engineer that hash but what they want to do is say hey yes the hash you queried corresponds to a signature that I have from open a and now we're back to the thing we're originally excited about which is ZK proofs of signatures yeah um and and so that's kind of where the ZK comes in of okay yes you want to verify the Providence without revealing all the original information I'm just curious what your involvement is with this project because it doesn't really touch ZK email per se

I I totally get that it's in the same kind of like category is this a project within ZK email or is it something else so this I would say is under the broader umbrella of like Provident research that I'm thinking about um this is kind of like it was a project I was working on a little bit more before ZK email and then now I've been kind of you know working with some friends and and mostly kind of mentoring them in terms of hey like how do we like train these models properly how do we get these ZK proofs to work how do we get this F system to work um and the kind of output of that has been like a paper basically but yeah I would say my my I think it's just like when you're thinking about system like ZK email I think you just kind of naturally

think about how can this Providence be used in all sorts of different ways and I think you just kind of start exploring these other ideas at the same time I I would still I would still say my main focus is ZK email but yeah nice I think I saw a recent post about ZK email and making airdrops more human how does that work yeah so I I feel like airdrops in the space have often been associated with this almost like crypto kind of scammy vibe um and I I've always kind of not really liked that I felt like there's always quite a lot of potential in hey being able to reward early users of your community um but the problem is it's kind of been co-opted by Cil farmers and scammers to be like hey like here's this thing that we can make money off of and I think the real way to think

about this is hey like how can we uh you know air drops are kind of meant to reward early contributors are meant to you know help redistribute uh you know equity in people who are actually using a product or people who are actually invested in the future of this product going in in the right direction I think you know so far it's kind of been oh we're going to reward people with certain onchain activity but you can kind of reward anything anybody that satisfies certain criteria right you can say hey like if your we could do one like the proof of humanity via you know the passport proofs or the ZK email proofs and then we could also do something which you're like hey we can prove if you I don't know we're part of this group or if you went to this inperson event you can

claim the thing or if you like contributed to this thing early on you can claim the thing or if you likeed this GitHub repay you can claim the thing or if you like you know you can kind of selectively choose what are the properties of a person that I want to prove and then those people can be the claiming the aop proving humanity and then you also probably want to give this incentivize people outside of crypto right you don't want to keep all of in the same bubble and now you can say well you know I want to give it to researchers who publish this paper and all I have is their email address well now you can directly give an allocation the email address they prove they own that email address now they can claim the thing and there's no crypto wallet involved and so in my opinion I think

there's really a rich space to re-explore how air drops can be used once again to like benefit users and benefit protocols in way that's much more diverse than what we seen so far and I think that's like also a quite exciting Direction but how does it do it how does the making airdrops more human actually work right so so the idea is that you know maybe some organization or protocol wants to support people who say committed early to certain GitHub repos and wrote some papers so what they would do is they would say okay we're going to you know hold some allocation for people who you know can prove with the ZK email proof they made a GitHub commit yeah um and you know we're going to take that email of merging that commit and we're going to use that to you know them in

and then maybe they'll say and we're going to add these 20 email addresses to the list and you know maybe also say anybody who published an archive on this topic before this date can claim and now anybody who provides an email address can can get them send to the list and then now that when they claim the token will directly get sent to an email wallet um generated for their email address and now the idea is if they want to send it to a centralized exchange to offramp or offramp with zkp top or you know whatever other service they can directly send that token into that system and then use that to kind of onramp offramp use that vote whatever it is that they want to do and and so it's kind of it brings back a lot of we talked about in the beginning

of hey you know both like combining the email wallet or receiving tokens to your wallet having your wallet be like a bank controlled by your email and also like the registry ideas of hey defining the new kinds of proofs really easily and then letting people prove that in order to to get some kind of benefit how are the teams doing stuff like this today because like I know that like aligned they did do there was like a GitHub contribution airdrop kind of thing and I think I've seen other teams do that too so how do they like how how is it currently done is it just done by like sending your your GitHub account handle and then they verify it manually or like check it there's two ways this is kind of currently done one is with tees which you know are a whole another rabbit hole

we can we can get into and one is with centralized verification so you know I think for instance in the aligned case I think they just verify yep does your GitHub sign in look good okay yes then you can say this is your onchain address and then they'll give it to that onchain address but you have to already be a crypto user but it's not that I mean that's not that dangerous I mean you're still rewarding the GitHub I think it's more about like how um like how granular can you get right so for instance what AI said is these are the you know 100 GitHub usernames I'm going to get they chose it right but you can define a more granular thing which is like oh anybody who committed to this kind of a repository before this date can get it or anybody who you know was part of this

organization at this time anybody who you know I think you can define a much broader scope of the kind of person you can give to which I think is quite exciting and I think you know yeah ceni get verification is a fine First Step but I think we can do a lot better than that or we can make the process easier right someone can just say oh committed to a repo with you know ZK related committed circom to a repo that anybody who did such a thing can get it and now you can Define these kinds of rules and and have it happen automatically that's cool I mean I think there is a trend in the teams that like are really focused on research and and the community like they're they're they are genuinely trying to find ways to reward people who really participated and really have been

doing things kind of behind the scenes for so long I like this tool though that you just proposed where you could do something a little bit more vague without without having to track down like which exact libraries and I have also heard of situations where people had not not in the cases we just mentioned in like past air drops what have you where they had actually contributed something but it just like wasn't on that list that was chosen that time and yeah it's It's Tricky it's hard to to capture everybody it is and and I I think it is useful to be able to capture all that activity and say yeah we want to reward like a very diverse set of people NE well I us that gets me to the end of my questions uh is there anything that people should be on the lookout for with

ZK email yeah with ZK email I think we're so we we kind of our focus in 2024 was really you know building MVPs of all these tools and getting our stuff production ready audited now we're kind of you know sprinting production deployments I think you'll see us release a lot of things over the next few months um um and yeah I'm I we're excited to work with anybody who wants to explore these ideas more deeply wallets people who want to prove certain things about certain people people who want to enable Anonymous speech um yeah I I'm and also like I'm I I really just love jamming on these you know ZK proof signatures even more weird cryptography ideas like witness encryption or FHA I I love Jing on these things I think there's a ton of great opportunity even like inability Aus I mean Sora who who

you know started ZK with me is is focused a lot and then I think there's just so many exciting things in cryptography they are very underrated I have to say like like our panel after this conversation I would like us to jam on all sorts of things going forward I have so many ideas for Community stuff but I don't know if I have like the technical like I have sort of the vague conceptual idea but I don't really know how to get there in reality I know what a lot of the programable cryptography types can do but I don't know how far along we are or how if there's any like big blockers in some of these ideas ever coming to fruition so it'd be great to talk to you about some of them like one cool idea we could do is even just have

this col something you and I can just sit I bet five minutes in and out we can define a new kind of ZK email proof that you want to Define like you just scroll through your email you be like oh I want to prove I appear someone appeared on ZK podcast something we can like put that up like in five minutes which is super cool be so good yeah cool maybe something to work on in the future yeah nice thanks a thanks for coming on yeah this is great thanks for having me on I want to say thank you to the podcast team Rachel Henrik and Tanya and to her listeners thanks for listening [Music]