Episode 215: Charting Zodiac & DAOs with Nathan Ginnever and Auryn Macmillan

Transcript

[Music] welcome to xero knowledge i'm your host anna rose in this podcast we will be exploring the latest in zero knowledge research and the decentralized web as well as new paradigms that promise to change the way we interact and transact online this week we dive into daos with zodiac a standard for composable dow tooling guests nathan jenever oren macmillan and i chat about the origin of the zodiac project the learnings they gathered from earlier tools like gnosis safe and safesnap we do a run-through of the

components that make up the zodiac standard new upcoming innovations the emerging trends endows and their management and more but before we start in i want to encourage anyone who is looking for a new opportunity to work with the teams building zktec to check out the zk jobs board there we have teams from our community posting their open positions it's a great place to find your future collaborators we've added a link in the show notes now i want to pass the mic to my producer tanya to tell you a little bit about this week's sponsor today's episode is sponsored by polygon polygon is one of the top ethereum scaling platforms for developers with over 130 million unique user wallets they're known for polygon pos chain one of the most popular chains built on top

of ethereum sometimes clocking even more daily active users than ethereum itself and the team is actually working on a spectrum of solutions including evm compatible zero-knowledge roll-up solutions like polygon hermes polygon miden and polygon nightfall which is built in association with ernst young they also recently announced their acquisition of mir protocol now known as polygon zero these solutions inherit the security of ethereum and use the power of zero knowledge over here at the podcast we've been tracking polygons journey and have recently had bob and threadbare from maidan and jordy and david from hermes on the show to talk about their respective projects we strongly recommend you check out those episodes to learn more about their vision project roadmap and progress so far polygon is also hiring and have a

few jobs listed on the zk jobs board you can check out that link in the show notes so thank you again polygon now here is our deep dive into zodiac [Music] today we're going to be exploring zodiac a standard for composable dow tooling and with me on the show we have nathan jenever an applied cryptographer working with gnosis on the zodiac tools and oren mcmillan a product manager and solidity developer who co-founded the gnosis guild so welcome to the show oren and nathan hi anna thanks for having us yeah thanks for having me so i did an episode with martin from gnosis i think about let's say eight months ago and in that episode we talked about something

called safe snap and you know gnosis safe and how useful like that that multisig could basically become this tool for daos and as i understand it zodiac kind of came out of that we also mentioned something called the gnosis guild so maybe you can give us a little bit of a sense for like what are these different elements how are they related i guess late 2019 we started making kind of very concrete steps towards launching the gnosis dell and in doing so did this kind of wholesale review of all of the dow tooling in the space uh and and essentially arrived at the conclusion that none of it quite checked all of the boxes that we wanted

for the gnosis dowel uh and in particular those kind of three boxes that were really hard to check all three with the existing tooling so one was we wanted to use a framework that was proven to secure a really really large amount so the the gnosis treasury uh is is really large i mean i think it's somewhere around 600 million in various assets at the moment um so we needed something that we were really comfortable to to kind of migrate that treasury into the next one was uh not wanting to price participants out of uh participating not wanting to price out voters uh with the the kind of cost of on-chain voting on uh on main net is that like gas fees

yeah exactly so like that the um the fees associated with uh with voting on mainnet uh particularly around the time we were trying to launch were were absurd um you know they got to cast a vote and say an aragon tower or a molecule or something like that would cost uh you know a hundred dollars to you know a few hundred dollars uh often uh just because of these kind of absurd gas uh price spikes and so you know for someone who has only a few hundred dollars worth of uh governance tokens in a dow it just doesn't make any sense to to burn that amount to uh to participate in voting so we're very conscious of wanting to lower the barrier to participation as much as possible

and then the third piece was wanting to make sure that we didn't kind of unreasonably or unnecessarily lock ourselves into one kind of particular path we wanted to maintain maximum possible future flexibility um and so it in the end it ended up i don't know i guess maybe somewhat obviously we we ended up landing on the safe as our best kind of possible foundation for this and decided that uh we would lean into a pattern that already existed uh in the pairing of the nososafe with snapshot this this was kind of a pattern that emerged fairly organically in response to kind of defy summer and

this was uh yeah most of the tooling didn't work and so we there was this uh kind of really common pairing between uh nursesafe and snapshot that they kind of emerged as a de facto standard for a lot of the projects uh spinning up or kind of wanting to to kind of become more downlike during this kind of defy summer and so leaning into that trend we said oh how can we give snapshot uh instances more concrete control over over and over safe and so that's where this safe snap plug-in and the kind of underlying contracts the reality module were born and that essentially kind of snowballed into what is now the zodiac ecosystem the

zodiac standard and all the kind of suite of tools and the hawker mission behind that uh and i guess to to kind of disambiguate that from nurses guild from gnosis from narcissus dao essentially gnosis uh is the system of legal entities that exist in the real world uh notice dao was this uh kind of illegal dao structure that uh that was spun up relatively recently and and now is the kind of custodian of and steward of the the gnosis ecosystem and the the treasury for um for the nurse ecosystem gnosis guild is a team that has spun out of or is in the process of kind of spinning out of gnosis uh

to kind of specifically steward the zodiac ecosystem which is this um essentially standard for composable dow tooling along with kind of a collection of tools built to that standard cool so do you see the zodiac standard as sort of a competitor to what was there before things like the aragon tool set or do you see it at a different point in the stack yeah it's it's definitely not intended to be a competitor i mean a lot of the stuff that tools like aragon uh malok or daostack or compound governor or any of these things do we don't do natively rather what we i think the really key insight is the idea of kind of decoupling

your account with the mechanisms that control it and in doing so kind of enabling a whole bunch of uh possibilities and and uh avoiding the kind of platform lock in that uh that you kind of may end up in otherwise and so i guess to illustrate that what i mean is say you were to start off as a as an aragon dell uh and then six months down the road you want to migrate and become a molok dao you just said hey molok does this thing that we like better and so now we want to be a molecule to do so now you have to kind of create proposals to move all of your assets uh to update all of the systems where your dell might be an owner of some kind of external contracts to update all of the

external references to your uh to your dow probably on a whole bunch of websites that you don't control and so you kind of have this monumental coordination challenge to move from kind of one framework to another and so what the the really kind of key insight is for for zodiac is if you decouple those two things if you treat if you basically have a an account that you can then plug those other mechanism in into you avoid those monumental coordination challenges now if you want to move from aragon to molech you use one proposal to enable malloc as a uh module to your account and disable aragon as a module to your account and so i wouldn't say it's a competitor to those things

instead i would say it's a way of of making all of these tools much more composable they they can kind of exist in in one ecosystem and kind of work in parallel on one on kind of one organization or kind of in parallel as part of one system uh that kind of is or represents an organization nathan i want to hear a little bit from you about when you kind of joined this project and what your contribute like how you're contributing because you're an applied cryptographer so i am curious like where you know where's the cryptography actually yeah that's probably just a fancy word that i use to say i take the hard work of real cryptographers and then put them

into things like solidity contracts and and hash things together and and do yeah miracle proofs you know simple stuff like that right but i think it's kind of cool how i came about this project i was uh getting interested in building uh a dao and building you know a dao you start to look around the landscape and uh you'll look at the molex and the compounds and the uh the aragons and the in the dallas accents you know the first kind of thing that came to my mind was this this idea that that orion mentioned about not having the ability to decouple um away from the stack if i wanted to right so i was like very kind of conscious ahead of time to to want a system that would be flexible and

something that i wouldn't get locked into and at that time i didn't see anything that would facilitate that so i just started going off and building and started to create my own stack and i was building my own stack and i realized that my stack would just be like every other stack if i didn't find a way to make it easily upgradeable and that's when i kind of saw you know what was happening with uh with snapshot and the gnosis coupling and i kind of came to the same conclusion independently that gnosis was coming to uh in the same time frame that the the safe makes like a great uh base layer to stack a bunch of other tooling on top of and so i started building a system that's you know similar or

composable with a compound it runs in the same sort of manners compound with delegated votes and i intended it to be stacked on top of the gnosis safe and uh nowadays as uh our orin mentions these things are not competitive so you'll see things like aragon uh supporting uh the ability to plug in the gnosis safe and to make calls into the gnosis safe in a way that looks like the zodiac standard so we can kind of see this you know nice connecting point between all of these different frameworks and and swap them in and out as we please and it also i think is is cool for experimentation as well to to be able to to try out uh new forms of uh of governance and new

patterns to build tooling around when you use the term standard like i i keep thinking that there's like these components like like a module and stuff like that but when you say standard maybe can you can you kind of explore what that actually looks like like how did like is it is it that each side like malik aragon would they have to plug something in like yeah what is the standard part of it yeah so when we say standard we really mean kind of like a standard way of uh building tools so that they can play nicely together uh and so essentially what we've done is just taken the interface that already existed on the gnosis safe particularly

the the module interface there's a handful of functions uh add module remove module execute transaction from module execute transaction from module with data and these uh these basically form the base of the the kind of zodiac standard now so we we kind of use the safe as our prototype for what this standard should look like if if we want to have external contracts come and own a nosa safe or kind of any other avatar contract that that would represent the kind of core of the organization then it should essentially implement this interface uh if you want to build a tool that can can plug in and control these things then it should be able to interact with

this interface so when we say standard we really just mean like it's a it's a standard way of kind of building out tooling so that they can kind of be stacked together and play nicely together got it so it's sort of like it's particular i'm just picturing from the malloc side for example like are they already built that way that they can easily lock into the standard or they have to do they have to do something so the nice thing with uh most of the existing dow tooling is that they generally have some method by which they can make arbitrary uh contract calls and so because of that they they kind of compatible out of the box even if they're not going to explicitly designed to be compatible because they can make arbitrary contract calls arbitrary function calls then they're able to

interact with that interface that i just described and then the kind of more explicit step usually is baking that into the interface somehow so going in and adding the the ability like that the guys from uh red guild uh and dao house went and built out the ability to control the noses safe from a uh a house dao um to kind of explicitly add support for this kind of standard in this feature set and just in terms of dating sort of what at what point did well and we'll get into the components of zodiac but like at what point do you feel like zodiac really arrived because you you've talked a little bit about

this evolution right like it was gnosis safe snapshot safe snap like where does zodiac start in this in this trajectory oh yeah we we could have officially announced it on september 4th uh sorry 14th last year so maybe that yeah we've obviously been thinking about it internally for for quite a bit longer and pulled nathan into a lot of that discussion uh quite a bit earlier but i don't think it had kind of fully materialized publicly into zodiac until then yeah i think in back then there was less general evm calls by some of the platforms and the standard part of this it creates this ability to

stack tools together um in a nice cohesive way and so things like what raid guild did to to get the molek dao to to be able to plug into into the standard uh opens them up to trying some new things as well so i think it's a really good time now to start diving into the components of this standard because i feel like some of them i mean really you can see existing concepts ideas products that have sort of been incorporated into this but there's a new i guess framework is that an okay way to call it like a bit of a framework for thinking about these different components yeah i think that's a perfectly fine way to think about it cool all right so let's start with these

kind of the components and maybe we'll start from something that we are somewhat familiar with which is safesnap although we should potentially redefine it for the listeners who didn't hear that previous episode so what was safesnap and what is it in zodiac yeah uh so it hasn't really changed since launching zodiac but so what safesnap is is essentially a way of bridging off-chain votes on snapshot to on-chain execution via a safe and doing so in a kind of trustless way or a way that's kind of secured by game theory uh it's actually it's a pretty novel mechanism um that most people haven't interacted with and rightfully so a lot of people are a

little bit spooked by when they first kind of realize what actually is under the hood but it's it's really cool it was taking from what i remember it was taking the sort of off-chain signaling component of snapshot and forcing sort of an on-chain execution so it's like your vote actually will happen not your vote is a signal that you want something to happen right yeah and so the the way that that works so there's uh there's this oracle problem here right like you it's an off-chain vote and you have to somehow get a representation of it on chain and you want that representation to be truthful and so there's a whole different whole array of different ways that kind of oracles can function and do function out in the wild

and the one that we chose is called reality.eth so the the underlying contract for our uh safe snap is actually we call our reality module uh and it's it's kind of generally applicable you could use it to bridge uh outcomes from snapshot like we do with the safesnap plugin but you can also use it to you could bridge it outcomes from just about anyway you could have discord polls or twitter polls or you could roll dice or flip coins or whatever you want to to trigger execution so long as the oracle can uh kind of verify that the outcome happened uh and so anyway the oracle is really really cool it's um an escalation game and so basically what happens is you ask it a question you say

did this proposal pass and then anyone can come and set the outcome of that question to set the outcome they have to put down a bond when they put down the bond then that kicks off a timeout period if that timeout period ends then the answer is set but at any point during that timeout period anyone else can come and double the bond to change the outcome uh that resets the time out and kind of resets the game and so that process continues on and on and on until the timeout eventually ends and so because the bond is doubled every time the bonds can get kind of unreasonably large very quickly um okay

and so the the way that the kind of game theory plays out is that at the top of the escalation game the shelling point is the true outcome as the outcome that that should resolve to it's essentially that means it's much easier to coordinate around the the true outcome than to coordinate around a false outcome uh and so the bonds have gotten so large that people need to stop pulling capital to to make them and so they're going to it's going to be much easier to pull toward the selling point the true outcome than the the false outcome and so because you know that's how the top of the escalation game will play out it's there's very little motivation at the bottom of the escalation game to try to sneak a false outcome through because

you're essentially just paying the person who comes and doubles your bond to set it to the true outcome and so like in practice we very rarely see uh the bonds move beyond just the first bond usually someone puts down the first bond they set the right outcome and that's all that happens every now and again uh in in other contexts we've seen the escalation game play out through through a few levels and then uh in in some like uh in omen uh the prediction markets case we've seen it actually kind of go all the way up to then being kicked off to an arbitration which is an option uh in in kind of clearos court and that is a really fun process to watch as well

i'd recommend going uh searching for clerus case 302 if you want to dive into that more uh there's some some really fun stuff that you'll find on youtube around that um but uh yeah in general we don't ever see it progress past the first bond because there's just no incentive to lie on it i actually as you were saying this it did it showed echoes of what i had understood sort of the gnosis work before when they were doing prediction market stuff um i don't know that they had exactly this game but this idea of bidding for truth and like somehow putting up money to kind of make a vote or prediction or say some sort of truth this sort of has

echoes of it so you mentioned two things that omen and claro's court can you can you say what those are actually yeah yeah there's a prediction market uh this is the one of the prediction markets that kind of notices how to uh bootstrap and the its oracle mechanism the way that it brings kind of results from real world events on chain is reality.eath and so this is obviously the kind of connecting thread that landed us on this it was an article that we were already comfortable with that we understood how it worked and we were confident would work well in this context as well and then claros is the arbitration option that oman uses so it's a it's a decentralized kind of court system

and one of the options for reality.ethers to select a arbitration option that could be used if the question goes too far up the escalating game and you just want to get a definite resolution out of some other mechanism so reality is kind of agnostic to the arbitration option that it uses uh omen uses uh chloro says as their arbitration option for the reality module most of the time we don't or at least like the ones that we've helped set up and obviously like for the gnosis towel and stuff we don't have an arbitration option set but for yeah for other dowels uh using it there is an option there to set an

arbitration option if you do want to be able to defer to something like clarescourt uh or some other uh yeah ultimate arbitrator for those outcomes cool so just to recap this though so this is reality and reality is where was with this like was the oracle kind of escalation game already in safe snap before it became reality or okay that was like already connected the naming here is probably pretty confusing so reality is the oracle and then okay how uh our module we ended up calling the reality module because it's basically deferring to reality.eth to get its decisions got it so this is but this is one of the

components right this is one of the pieces modules of zodiac um no longer called safe snap more and and now you've kind of rebranded that also as reality because it calls the reality.eath contract again naming is probably confusing so safe snap is still a thing like save snapchat that's just how we refer to the setup with uh snapshot so you have this kind of plugin within snapshot that is the safe snap plugin and so it's kind of i guess uh a distinction between the kind of application layer piece and the the contract layer piece so at the contract layer it's called the reality module and the reason being is that it's it's use case agnostic like you could use it for snapshot as in like safe snap or you

could use it for bringing information from just about anywhere else so if we wanted to set up a similar similar thing with discord or twitter polls or anything like that then we'd use this same reality module and we plug it into discord instead uh we plug it into twitter instead and you have a bot kind of running on or yeah a bot or something else like that running on uh on that platform rather than on snapshots platform sorry i think i missed this though the app but you sort of mentioned like the contract level but then the application level it is also called reality or at that application level it would be called like in snapshots case it's still just called safe snap um okay and so yeah this is super confusing i know um

good to know though snapshot is how we would refer to it if like we'd refer to this kind of this whole setup of a snapshot instance with the uh safe snap plug-in that which is connected to a reality module which is connected to a nosa safe so like the shorthand way of saying that whole thing is safe snap but then yeah there's all these kind of separate pieces that make it up okay the next thing listed after reality was bridge is bridge a component or as bridge as we understand it bridges to other things what what is bridge so bridge bridge is actually a pretty exciting one for me so what we just talked about with the reality

module is you know a system to collect votes in uh in an effective way right since uh gas prices make it you know hard to do certain types of voting you know you have delegation as the primary means of on-chain voting uh and part of the reason for doing that is to make the gas costs reasonable so reality is a you know type of bridge you know using an oracle is a type of way of bridging data uh to the main chain and the bridge the bridge module is uh you know a zodiac module and so we could clarify what modules are inside of zodiac and and modules are a piece that can plug into the gnosis safe and they can do anything as long as it

follows this connecting point standard to get information from whatever you want to code in your module over to the safe and bridge is a particular module that is intended to pick up data from other chains and the current bridge implementation that we have right now is working with the uh the gnosis chain uh formerly known as xi chain and it is intended to take bridged information from that chain and so you can do things like put a voting system on an alternative chain and then do the more expensive parts which would be collecting votes from

people um and have the final result you know bridged over to the asset manager where you're holding the majority of the things that matter and the more secure or robust chains and that's one example of using the bridge that's that's the example that i'm particularly excited about but in in general it just will bridge any data from from that chain that's cool too it kind of speaks to the problem that was highlighted earlier this idea of gas fees so if you were voting on the l2 on the gnosis chain then it would be quite cheap and anyone even with a small amount could actually do their vote without noticing kind of you know any of their of their holdings being drained away by gas and yet the execution would still happen on

the main chain so you just mentioned that like bridge right now is the gnosis old x die by the way is that when did that happen that's like really really recent right this is like like x die is now gnosis um when when did that happen within the last few weeks that's um yeah that's really really really reason it's very cool though it's a really amazing evolution there but yeah so right now there's that sort of there's there's something called bridge which bridges gnosis to the l1 being ethereum but like is there a plan for this to also be dealing with all of the other l2s can you imagine this actually even be being used on like other evm compatible non-l2 chains yes absolutely um and that's part of

some of the research that i'm actively working on right now and so what we really want is the most trust minimized bridge possible and so there are um trust assumptions to most of these bridges even in oracle with an escalation game has you know some assumptions with the uh the game theoretics there and with the bridging mechanisms for the gnosis chain it's uh fairly weak trust assumptions it's uh some multi-signature signers that will be able to pass the message over so um you know that's not the most ideal way to uh secure the connection between you know where the decisions are being made and the actual assets that need to be moved or

need to be dealt with or wherever the end point of those decisions are you know you want to make sure that's secure so that the bridging cannot corrupt the important parts of the things that are sitting on layer one uh so we have the ideas of using um you know roll-ups potentially so there's uh an evm roll-up from eath relay that will you know try to do uh header validation from evm chain to evm chain and uh header validation between you know say bitcoin and ethereum is rather simple and this is because of the proof-of-work consensus mechanism that bitcoin implements uh that is fairly reasonable for the

ethereum chain to validate but uh the ethereum chain uses a bit more of a complex consensus uh algorithm with uh eath hash and a lot of these uh proof of works and these consensus algorithms started to pick up this idea of making them memory hard and this is an attempt to keep them on gpus as opposed to moving them onto asics very quickly so you end up with you know validation being a little bit more expensive and it's currently a little too expensive for the just base smart contracts of the layer 1 to be able to you know validate these headers in a trustless way so things like e3 layer working on a bit of a rollup system which would be kind of like a fraud

proof game to be able to to verify that these validations were done correctly but we're also looking into zero knowledge for this as well and uh there is a bit of research that's been done on being able to do uh these validations and zero knowledge but for my understanding and my latest research i think that that's still an open question uh being able to get a circuit that can do these kind of validations you're thinking something like macy maybe like this is the at least the most popular zk focus schema that i that i've heard of well macy is a bit of uh a different concept so macy is a voting system and i'll let uh orion get deeper into this because he's very uh

knowledgeable on this macy system but it's generally to prevent collusion and bribe attacks but for purely bridging you know you could i think in theory think of using something like uh zk evm potentially okay where you would you know run all of the all the voting on the evm zkevm chain and then potentially you know all the bridging happens for every piece of state on the zk evm so that would be like a natural bridge um that is not ready yet and there's still a lot of work and i know you've talked to i believe mata labs in the past about zk evm yeah and uh it's a really exciting piece of technology i think yeah and jordy from hermes was also actually there's as far as i know there's like three groups working on ck

evm right now ckevm also has different meanings in different contexts sometimes it's like equal op code sometimes it's a compiling down to anyway uh but that's a whole other topic um and actually on the topic of voting i actually want to hold on that because i have more questions on that so i want to come back to it first i want to continue with these modules and i actually have one more question on bridges so like there are a lot of there's a number of bridge focused teams that are just building bridges but given that this is very much like about taking a snapshot not necessarily but like transferring tokens from an l2 to an l1 are you even looking at those

alternative bridging technologies or companies something like you know xlr or like nomad these these kind of yeah bridge focused teams is there any work on that yeah yeah so i mean you're spot on like most of the bridging that people do is concerned with moving value from one chain to another from one layer to another and so generally when you think about securing those bridges they kind of low-hanging fruit or lower-hanging fruit still uh still complex and difficult to engineer but the the lower hanging fruit is to kind of economically secure them essentially ensure that the person who would be sending on the kind of destination chain is bonded on the origin chain uh and and you always

have some way of kind of proving if they don't deliver on the uh on the destination chain so you can kind of slash their bond or kind of recover your funds uh on origin so they kind of incentivize to follow through on sending it on the destination because you've you've got their money held hostage on origin the same isn't necessarily true if you're trying to bridge data if you're trying to bridge state in that you may be trying to bridge data that would let's say control a system or change a system that is much more valuable than what you could reasonably expect uh a kind of router to put up as a bond you know say you you know the the yeondao and you're wanting to change some fundamental piece

of of a yarn vault with billions sitting in it you obviously can't expect that that router to have locked up billions in a bond uh so that you can pass some state across um or alternatively like if you're just trying to bridge something that has essentially no financial value it's uh you know you're just trying to bridge uh i don't know a message to someone or something you know you want to timestamp something then these things again that there's very little uh it's very hard to kind of assign a specific value to it even though it is valuable to you and so those those types of uh bridges typically are kind of not suitable for this this application and

so that's where we get into um the territory of using things like the arbitrary message bridge that has uh this is the the bridge between notice chain and xdi which has kind of an oracle set that you effectively trust to have unilateral control over your uh over your thing on the other side um which is much less than ideal you just said you just actually just said gnosis and x die but i think you meant gnosis chain and mainnet right yes no sustain and maintenance uh or nurse has changed my variety of things i'm still very much uh trying to to kind of replace x die with nurse's chain in my mind it's uh i'm sure i'll slip out more than once in the rest of the call

it's very fresh yeah yeah so we're kind of actively researching uh other options nomad is one uh that i had previously written off and i think it was because of my own kind of misunderstanding of how it works uh and i guess maybe to to get a little bit gritty in that i had uh kind of through reading through the documentation come to the conclusion that it was essentially secured the way that i just described where i would be able to punish on origin but not be able to stop the message on uh destination and in fact the um the way that it works they have essentially a something analogous to kind of the optimistic watch towers uh optimistic kind of watches where there is a a

network of uh users that are able to stop a message on a kind of financially incentivized to one be online and to stop fraudulent messages before they actually are executable and kind of in doing so they would then also kind of participate in punishing the the uh actor that sent the uh the fraudulent message so by having this uh additional layer of kind of watches i think they actually are in a position where they're much more suitable for this use case uh i didn't come to this conclusion until last friday and so i actually haven't chatted with nathan about this yet so nathan's learning this uh at least like he's learning about my current understanding at the same time as you

um so yeah this is super fresh and our audience yeah yeah yeah exactly um but yeah nomad i think is really interesting and i would definitely like to look at an implementation of our bridge module that makes use of nomad i think that's probably a shorter path to essentially anywhere to anywhere any evm chain to any vm chain bridging still doesn't have ideal trust assumptions but it's definitely better than where we are currently and uh and we should be able to kind of roll it out to enable any to any bridging uh much sooner than the the system that nathan's uh describing which is still very much in its uh infancy very cool yes yeah so we are you know at the stage of you know the amb from

gnosis chain uh that that does work and i i do have prototypes of of that working and um a nice full-fledged uh dow ecosystem so but yeah moving over to these more you know trust less systems is the way to go and i will need to check out nomad orion just hit that one from me [Laughter] all right let's move on to another module uh a delay there's delay and exit so we've done reality bridge delay and and now we're on delay and exit so what's delay yeah delay is a very simple one it's a common pattern in voting systems to put a delay mechanism between

finalizing the vote and actually executing it and it's a bit of a safety measure to kind of you know check the results and give yourself some time in case something went wrong so delay sits between some system you know potentially a a voting system and the gnosis safe and will gather up the transactions and just put a delay on them and and let it sit there for a little bit and why do you do that why do you need it it's uh it's a bit of a safety mechanism so you can kind of couple it potentially with other modifiers or other modules and you could this could lead into a module that we're building well it's a modifier we might want to clarify the

difference between modifiers and modules at some point but it could lead into this other modifier that we built that has roles and you might leave a specific role that can do a specific action and potentially that action would be to say remove a bad module that decided to go uh do something corrupt and while the transactions were being delayed you would have a chance to do that that's i mean i'm kind of wondering like what bad action could happen that you would even need this let's say you have a governance system and it gets clearly kind of co-opted in some way and starts trying to push through malicious proposals you know drain the treasury and send it to x that kind of malicious proposal it's it's

beneficial if you have some mechanism to stop it uh or it can be beneficial if you have some mechanism to stuff it and so that's what this delay making a delay modifier is essentially uh designed for it gives you a window of time to respond to uh to these kind of things and then has a function where you can actually mark uh delayed transactions as invalid and so stop them and say there is a an owner on the modifier um and that owner has the ability to call the function to essentially skip a transaction that's in queue and so if depending on what you set as that owner that could be anything it could be your multi-sig it could be some other kind of trusted user it could be a

a governance mechanism uh it could be a decentralized court uh whatever you like you can kind of set us the owner of this module and then that owner has the ability to skip transactions for you if if they come through on their malicious or you know don't align with what the dow kind of agrees to do or whatever it is um so yeah it's really there just as kind of a safety precaution to enable that the other thing that it can enable you to do is uh maybe this is a good segue into the exit module um so let me let me kind of explain the exit module first and we'll tie it back to this the exit module essentially allows you to

claim a share of the dao's treasury in exchange for some designated token so essentially unless you replicate a rage quit like functionality where you have some some designated token and you can uh yeah redeem that for a proportional share of the dao's treasury a proportional share of the dowser erc20 and native token assets and so a really key piece of uh rage credit a really key piece to it functioning as intended is there being a period of time after a proposal passes to when it can be executed during which you can rage quit exactly yeah so without that delay your rage

quit is pretty meaningless uh if a proposal gets passed that you disagreed with and uh you know now it goes and spends all of the funds that you would have raged quite away if uh if only you had the time uh so that's that's kind of another use case where this might be uh might be applicable it's just to make sure that there's always enough time for people to exit for people to rage quit before a decision is is actually enacted the rage quit you're talking about i mean i think this was first popularized by molok dao yes right this was this idea that you could like i mean it's what it sounds like like you hate a decision so much that you're like i quit and you leave the space but you actually get to take with you yeah you flip the table

burn your bridges and leave okay exactly and so i think this is also a really good illustration of kind of what the zodiac eq system or one kind of thing that it enables you kind of you get all these small building blocks and you can kind of combine them together to create systems uh that that kind of take on a variety of different shapes and so you could you could create a kind of molec-like uh structure by combining the safe with the exit module and the delay module and then some other governance mechanism interesting and this is kind of different from how a lot of other dows were kind of building themselves in the past or building up their tools because often what they do is like fork the molec

contracts or fork an existing dow which had been kind of built from scratch and here it sounds like yeah you've basically made the components and maybe some choices that you can like you can configure things in a way so you can get the same effect without having to fork the exact code yeah exactly and i think the other thing that we uh we kind of touched on briefly was not only to kind of unreasonably restrict future decisions and so we kind of just recognized that most dows start off as a small group of people and and probably the best choice for most hours initially is it's just a multi-sig but you don't want to have unreasonably restrict them to just being a multi-sig forever and so part of what zodiac

enables is these really incremental steps along a kind of progressive decentralization pathway and that can kind of branch in any direction that the the dow wants but you can slowly add in pieces to give the community uh a say and give them more autonomy and add different pieces of security start to restrict or remove the multi-sig multisig owners and add in all kinds of different decision making mechanisms for different functions i guess that's the probably the last piece that i really love about this as a framework is that it really allows you to match mechanism and decision type in a much more granular way where you can because you can have multiple mechanisms running

in parallel and you can if you want can very strictly scope those mechanisms then you can uh very much define which mechanism should be used for which types of decisions and and ultimately should be able to get much more efficient uh dowels as a result cool i had one before we move on to the sort of because there's this other component we've mentioned modules and like very briefly mentioned modifiers or something called avatars i want to also understand that dimension but first with the delay i mean when you talk about a delay i also have this like i feel like there's a bit of an echo of the dao the dao hack the dow hack that had this 35 day delay that sort of saved

well it gave people a little bit of breathing time to be able to potentially you know head to a white hat attack on it that by the way is an amazing story if people are listening and have never heard of the full dow story i i'll try to dig up there's a really old episode we did with griff green where it was like a play-by-play of what went down there it was very cool but yeah that delay you know it was this idea that there was a malicious attack but because of the way the thing was built there was this 35-day wait period before some action could be taken and that was actually the time that people had to like make decisions and like find out what the community wanted to do is that where that comes from was it always part of sort of dow thinking

yeah i i think like time locks or delays are just a pretty proven strategy for uh securing things you know like this that has roots well and truly before the dow ecosystem was ever a thing you know like a time lock in a bank vault there's a uh as a proven way to you know make sure that one of the people you share this bank vault with doesn't go and run off with all the money um and so it's it's it's very much a uh yeah an old strategy um but it's been reincarnated multiple times in the dow ecosystem obviously with the dow with molok like we just mentioned with uh open zeppelin and compound governor with their time lock

with colony and the delay between colonies have lazy consensus mechanism uh has a has a time lock built in i don't recall if dow stack had a uh a time lock i don't think so uh and you know trusted and proven mechanism for adding a layer of security and i do wonder if it's a bit of an admission of our code is law kind of inability to get things completely right so it does leave you with the some sort of escape hatches and potentially introduces some trust requirements and you know a fork came out of the original dow delay and you know potentially that's the most decentralized solution

to to being in the situation of needing a delay so it's maybe not the most you know perfect solution but you know perfection is hard to get right and so we're incrementally pushing our way towards that very cool so let's talk about these other elements so what we've just covered the reality bridge delay exit these are modules but you also have these things called modifiers but like let's even take a step back there's something called avatars there's these uh this other sort of axis so let's kind of cover those what's an avatar let's start there maybe an avatar is a cool name for something like the gnosis safe it's what would be representing the the asset vault that holds on to the the

core pieces that you want to to secure or passes the messages on as the kind of identity on the chain that you want to uh interact with the rest of the chain with and it's an agnostic terminology i think it's meant to allow any other type of system to plug itself in as an avatar if it you know fulfills certain sets of requirements but it isn't the voters it's not like individual voters have avatars the way we understand it on twitter or something like this it's more like the wall the shared wallet that core thing is the avatar yeah so we think about the avatar as like the dow the representation of the darwin chain essentially the address the canonical address that you would say this is the dow on chain that is that is your kind

of avatar and so the notes are safe as our prototype for an avatar we're obviously pretty incentivized to use that but we were very deliberate about wanting this to be a kind of open standard wanting it to be unopinionated as much as possible about what you plug it into and wanting to leave it open for other people to make a choice on what that avatar is so we don't want to force people to use the safe we think it's the best choice but we don't want the standard to be more opinionated than it needs to be about that about that choice and we want to leave it open to other people to come and implement alternate avatars if there's some improvement that they think they can make over the safe i wonder like are there other really popular multi-sig standards like there used to be parody

multisig but i think that was wound down um what else was there like are there other multi-sticks that are polite way to put it one wound down yeah the parody multistick had a um well it had two it did two hacks and then it then they stopped they were like let's not use this anymore um right but yeah there are some others out there um i think argent is another really good example of a contract wallet that could be used as an avatar the interface is a little bit different but it has some very similar kind of design philosophy um or ethereum had a contract wallet uh implementation that

could probably be used in a similar way uh perhaps there's others nathan i'm not familiar with any others i think you you would know more yeah i've always thought of gnosis as the canonical one although i know that's not necessarily true um i have a little sort of side question on this like obviously this is very very ethereum solidity evm focused but like what if is it possible that there'd be like a multi-sig on another like blockchain altogether that could somehow tap into some of this or would it need to be like i'm assuming all the contracts are written in solidity so it's not like something you could like easily port over to like i don't know a fully different system but yeah have you thought at all about that like the avatar may be coming from

a different place so i've thought a lot about uh the avatar still being on an evm chain but messages being passed from other uh other chains so the the near rainbow bridge is a really good example of a header relay that's uh pretty much trustless pretty well trustless um and so i can imagine a scenario where you have some kind of dow structure on nia that's bridging decisions over to a nurse's safe on maintenance ethereum or on one of the other kind of evm chains that kind of scenario i think could could be possible from just about any network and it's really just a matter of having a suitable data bridge

the other way having like an avatar on another network would obviously mean rewriting all of the uh the avatar code and then all of the uh modules yeah okay yeah so that's that's a much more difficult uh uh direction for information to flow but if you're talking about kind of control flowing from uh yeah from near or from uh i don't know solana or from uh yeah any of these other kind of smart cultural platforms that are written in some other language uh yeah as long as they have some suitable data bridge then it would most certainly be possible interesting um okay so now let's talk about the modifiers so i think we've covered modules quite well but yeah what what's this modifier and i don't know are they already like

listed are there too many of them like what do they look like we have less modifiers than modules at the moment and it's just another one of those um building blocks so the way that i see modifiers is a a piece of code that sits between a module and the avatar so you can kind of you know deploy your module deploy your avatar and then say i want to do an extra step or two between you know what's happening in the module and what's happening at the avatar level you could hook in a modifier and you know reroute the the message passing between these components and have some extra logic happen in that intermediate step

maybe we can talk a little bit about a modifier that we are building right now and we're calling it the roles modifier and the idea behind that is to take some execution and then you know check that execution before it reaches the avatar and determine some permission levels on that execution and this is i think particularly useful um it goes again into a bit of the safety side of dao tooling but what it can do is enable you know certain bypasses to governance where you know this became a problem in practice for i believe it was compound dao that made a mistake in one of their protocol upgrades and um left some money on the table and the only way to fix that was

to go through the slow governance that initially caused the problem to begin with so there was no fast way to like correct this mistake that the original proposal had created so you could conceive of having a specialized role for a committee or some other form that is a little bit quicker to enact that could you know quickly route a message to correct that protocol upgrade um and that's kind of like you know the idea behind the rules is to give some extra permissions to to bypass or to do certain things cool and that sounds like it could be incredibly useful especially for younger protocols where there still needs to be a little bit of oversight from potentially the the team before

they fully decentralize so for kind of a concrete example of this or a more concrete example um we were talking earlier about the the delay modifier being a kind of security feature in that by by allowing a time delay you allow potential for someone to react to it and kind of who that someone is is uh we talked before about being quite nebulous it could be any one of a number of different things so let's think about this in the context of the roles modifier you might define a role that is uh essentially like someone who is allowed to call the veto function on this delay modifier or the skip function on this delay modifier so now you have a role that is

allowed to call that function and you can assign that to whoever you want so you may have a group of relatively trusted people in the community that you say hey it's your job if something goes through that we need to stop we have this upgrade to our protocol and oh no it means you know we just realized after it's gone through and it's sitting in the time delay that it means you're going to leave a whole bunch of money sitting there that anyone can take someone please go and veto it and so you have now this group of people that have this one unilateral power they can veto any proposal that goes through and they don't need to wait for dow approval or anything like that they can just go and call the veto function and uh and stop it so you kind of avoid

that scenario by granting some limited power some limited kind of unilateral power to some small group of people yeah a kind of a concrete way of thinking about the the delay modifier and the rolls modifier may maybe acting in tandem nice and there's one other point which is guards what are guards yeah yeah those are the kind of i guess four kind of key components avatars modules modifiers and cards and guards are a um a type of contract that lets you do you know pre and post checks on execution so you can install a guard on the safe or on a zodiac compliant module or modifier and basically what

it's going to do is before it tries to execute the code and then after it tries to execute the code or pass the code through it's going to run this kind of pre-check on it and then a post check on it and so the guard basically defines what that pre-check or post check is and so it might be things like our scope guard that is is very similar to the roles modifier that we've just talked about where you can kind of set up some specific addresses and functions that a particular module or modifier is allowed to interact with or say the multisig signers are allowed to interact with or you could do things like a post check that makes sure that some state hasn't changed so say you want to make sure that uh a multi-sig sign or a particular

multi-six signer is not removed or a particular module is not removed you know you want to make sure that no one puts through a proposal that removes the reality module as a module and just breaks the dow then you can have a scope guard that does that or you say you have a guard that does that that checks to make sure that that piece of state hasn't changed and if it has then the whole transaction reverts got it uh maybe it's good to do a quick recap on on just like what each of those pieces are so the avatar is kind of the address on chain that represents the dow a module is something that would plug into an avatar to to control it a module has unilateral control over the avatar and so you can implement whatever logic you want the the module to be able to do

in that module contract uh a modifier would sit between a module and an avatar and you could kind of arbitrarily chain those as deep as you want so you may have multiple modifiers sitting between a module and an avatar and then a scope is applied to either the avatar directly or any of the modifiers or modules in between to do pre-checks and post checks on execution and like just to double check that too so in terms of modules there's reality bridge and exit is exit a module yes exit is okay and then modifiers would be the roles and the delay yeah and the other way to distinguish modifiers is that they implement both the uh the module

and the avatar interface so they basically you can you can plug in and and they've got kind of both both plugs whereas the uh the modifier kind of can only send messages out essentially okay very cool this is actually really interesting because i mean we i i've been thinking about potentially playing with the dao idea in the near future i don't have any i have too many projects so i really don't want to promise anything here but i i really appreciated going through the steps and the each module and trying to understand how they'd all work together and also i like this idea that you just described which you start with a multi-sig so you start with something relatively easy it's pretty easy to set up people are kind of familiar with using it and then you could potentially

add to it i have a question a little bit about the types of dowels that this is for i mean i know it's since it's modular it's potentially for a very very wide range but like i feel like there's been and i don't know if maybe someone has defined this more accurately than that i'm about to but i feel like there's these clusters of types of dows kind of coming up there's the d phi dows the d phi daos when i say this it's like you know the compound dao i don't know if ave has a doubt but i'm guessing like all the dells that basically decide on the percentage of rewards that are going to be coming out what's the fees like these these sort of numeric decisions happening in d5 there's the nft dows

which i fully don't understand at this point to be honest i don't know what i know that they have funds and that they have to do something with the funds which i think is like market themselves more or something or buy albums um and then there's things like the investment dollars grants um or like actual investments and there you can have like molok dao meta cartel there's like a bunch and those are actually a little bit older so yeah i mean this is this is sort of a distinction i'm seeing maybe you have a different way of thinking about the landscape and yeah i'm curious to hear how you think about it and maybe where you think these tools are most effective

yeah i mean i think uh i think those categories are pretty useful um and and probably describe a good chunk of the doubt in the space uh there's there's yeah defy uh kind of governance dowels for [Music] governing both the kind of treasuries of and and generally and in some cases kind of parameters of uh various dfi ecosystems uh the these kind of more cultural or nft focus dows have become much more popular um i think nathan probably has more insight on that side of the ecosystem than i do and then broadly these kind of fund allocation dowels um you you identify those as potentially being a little bit

older and i think that's that's probably true the molec ecosystem really uh catalyzed that i think there's probably a a fourth category there of kind of mission driven dows that have some kind of specific purpose that they're trying to achieve they want to go and change the world somehow and and they can have you know they're trying to kind of direct funds towards doing that um and then i think there's there's a very different style of dell uh i mean generally i would say like you've got two really broad classes of dell one is kind of very narrowly scoped uh dows like the bitcoin network or the ethereum network where you have your participation is running a node uh and you know the scope

of work that you have is literally kind of running that node or running the consensus algorithm participating in consensus to kind of secure the network and then the other kind of broad class of dow is is much less tightly scoped where it could be you know they're trying to do something uh that may or may not kind of interact with the real world in some way but it's uh it's much less tightly scoped in terms of how they how they actually interact uh and and what they do and then yeah in that second kind of broader class then yeah it branches down a whole bunch but i think your categories make uh broad sense there might even be one that i i feel like is missing here which is like the dows that are there to make decisions about protocol upgrades i don't know if you

would consider the zodiac as a framework for something like that and maybe that's not a dao that does that but it's mostly maybe like in some like i'd say like cosmos and polka dot you have actually on-chain governance which makes decisions on and maybe some others i bet i bet some others that i'm missing but they yeah they make decisions on on actually what upgrades are going to happen yeah i would lump them in as the same in the same category as that that second kind of big bucket is just like that's that's a doubt that's much less tightly scoped um than one that you participate in just for consensus yeah i think that the first mention of dowse that i could pull up was i think 2014 vitalik was writing the difference between uh da's or just

decentralized applications and do's centralized organizations and dacs with you know company at the end and i think the real kind of difference between you know a bitcoin dow and an nft dow is the the autonomy part where you know vitalik was defining the autonomy being how much of this dao is uh self running and how much of it is you know just code based and running completely on its own but even bitcoin requires you know some human intervention there's been forks in bitcoin the where clients got out of date and had to uh be corrected by humans to make sure that these you know forks didn't run in you know often parallel directions and just go mad uh so i think you know the autonomy part is probably the most vague

part of the the dow acronym and um there's always going to be you know less autonomy you know depending on certain certain types of dows and yeah i guess maybe so to go back to your original question then about like where we would see zodiac being useful probably i would say any with the exception of that first kind of really broad category of essentially like narrow scope kind of protocol dows you know they get so zodiac's probably not useful to uh participate in the consensus uh you know as a participate in uh in in mining or proof of stake or something like that but i'd say

anywhere else it probably is uh it could probably be used for it's it's definitely built to be uh as flexible and generally applicable as possible i agree i like the idea of this facilitating you know and to use the autonomy part maybe the less autonomous ones the ones that require a little bit more human intervention which is i think the general broader landscape of what we see as daos currently so i do think that it's uh useful for for most dows and i've been building in that direction too to try and make you know these tools as useful as possible to to most dows and i think a way to do that is to try to incorporate as many strategies as you can and by

strategies i mean ways of voting ways of of coming together we have kind of a narrow scope of ways of voting and uh this has presented some issues and there's been posts about you know the pitfalls of of coin voting and just relying entirely on um you know plutocratic methods to to get decisions across and and so it's been um the majority of my work has been spent on making sure that there's other forms you know simple things you know reintroducing um classic politics reintroducing reintroducing legacy politics into taos things like one member one vote and maybe things that are a little bit more interesting like quadratic voting

which was actually tried uh in congress i believe in colorado at some point in 2018 or so and the idea there is to yeah to kind of put a little bit of stake in what you're voting on to to avoid the potential problems of just one number one vote and majorities outweighing minorities and to be able to get a little bit more voice across but still not run into the issues of full-on plutocracy where money just is the the ruling class that actually leads me to my last kind of question i had which was to revisit that concept of voting because when we went through all of the components of zodiac there isn't really a part that says what

kind of votes or what the voting systems are and i wonder like you know if you look at even like reality and the staking game the oracle escalation game that's not really a voting system as far as i can tell so so yeah i'm curious to hear like where does the votes like i i get the idea that they might be happening on the l2 but yeah like how are the voting systems defined like say you wanted to do macy say you wanted to use quadratic voting do you build that with zodiac or do you build that separately and then use zodiac to kind of like get the results somewhere so i created a module to fit into the zodiac framework that is what i'm calling usel which is a term

from uh from dune which is a name of the main character's like secret name or something um but it's the idea is it's just a voting system right so it kind of fills that question that you're having where where does the voting come from in this and it's at its core the module is just a place to load up your proposals to to get the data that you want executed into a centralized place and then from there you're able to register different strategies to come to decisions on whether or not that data should pass and so these strategies can be any type of voting and i started with the example that's the most common which would be delegated uh coin voting which you'd see out of compound but uh we've also built one member one vote to try

things that you know systems like cooperatives would be more interested in we are working with more more exotic voting strategies like macy and you know you'd be able to create the the macy voting system and then just plug that into this module and you can always again keeping with the design philosophy of zodiac swap these things out and even granularly on a proposal level you know as you're submitting proposals to the to the useful module you can say i prefer this voting strategy or this other voting strategy for this specific proposal i wonder like since like macy has been implemented i believe there's like an implementation for the clr fund and quadratic voting has definitely been

implemented for bitcoin can you reuse any of that or would you have to rebuild it somehow to fit within zodiac yeah the plan is definitely to reuse macy we we really like to leverage macy i think that uh the fact that all dow voting right now is out in the open uh in public kind of easily readable easily tieable to your identity uh leads to the possibility for some really negative outcomes and so the ability ability to kind of leverage tools like macy to make much more kind of collusion resistant voting is uh crucial for the dow system uh dao ecosystem to kind of evolve uh and take a a next step i think

taking a step back you're kind of asking where the voting happened this was a really again kind of deliberate choice uh in designing zodiac just kind of recognizing that there was already a whole bunch of really great voting and decision making tools out there and so we didn't really need to reinvent the wheel the idea here is more about plugging those things into one cohesive kind of core using them as a uh essentially a module to this this larger framework as opposed to uh trying to to displace them so it's up you know the existing tools that that are already out there and in aragon and dowstack and colony and compound and

and uh moloch really great and we we shouldn't just throw them out and stop using them uh zodiac is is really there to just make those all uh kind of composable pieces to one larger tool set and then yeah nathan's uh tool also he's gonna work on that as what originally uh connected us um that's that's how he found nathan and um yeah the fact that he kind of arrived at that conclusion independently and then started building um was you know he was they're just a natural fit and then yeah macy is uh his uh a project or kind of macy integration in terms of the project that nathan and

i had started in our last build cycle and it got derailed by some other priorities but we're very much hoping to get back into uh in in a future cycle you mentioned clear fund that's a um a side project that i uh work on cool yeah it's sorry i've had a lot of experience kind of playing with macy and we're currently navigating the challenges of trying to do it on a true layer two uh it's turning out to be a lot more expensive than uh than we had predicted um for we were hoping to run around on arbetron and just kind of benchmarking based on our previous round that we ran on uh xdi and now gnosis chain we we had

six thousand uh almost seven thousand uh participants who averaged about uh ten messages each so uh somewhere around seventy thousand messages and this basically means we have to do we have to do seven thousand um transactions to arbitrarily if we wanted to run that same size round okay which would end up being a really significant amount of money given that you know a transaction to average on right now is a dollar or two maybe three and so yeah we're trying to kind of reconcile don't want to uh run rounds on a network that is um the kind of shares of ethereum mainnet

security model with just the the reality of the cost of doing it um and kind of what scale we need to achieve in order to make that cost worthwhile wild yeah actually i wanted to create a grant over there that was that was where i think uh came on the show and shared macy and mentioned that thing and i was like oh man i want to go over there and try it i haven't done it yet still just on bitcoin for now absolutely maybe one day when we um when we fire up the next round you absolutely should cool but yeah this is um this is all kind of relevant for us thinking about how we would utilize it in zodiac as well because part of the point of uh zodiac obviously or part of the inspiration for it was lowering the barrier to entry and so i

want to be really uh lowering the priority to kind of participation and so i want to be really cognizant of uh building systems that have a have a reasonable home uh if they are going to be kind of gas intensive you know have a reasonable home that dallas can deploy them and operate them without reintroducing that that financial kind of roadblock to a whole bunch of people potentially participating okay so i think gnosis chain for the time being is still probably the preferable place to run something like this uh other networks that might be similarly uh cost effective might be polygon or you know other other essentially side

chains um i'm really keen to see uh it's a zk vm start to come online because i think that'll probably drop transaction prices on layer 2 considerably but i know that they still uh we still have a little bit of time to wait on those very cool so maybe as a last question uh tell us a little bit about what the future for zodiac holds what are you working on right now what can we expect to see in the pipeline so i would like this stuff to be useful and usable as soon as possible and to get that done i will have a test net version of being able to vote with different strategies hooked into the zodiac ecosystem

ready by the time this airs so it's already on test net uh you can test out a large uh majority of the functionality but uh by the time this airs it should be the the coin voting that you're all familiar with and uh one member one vote which i think is really important to get equality into voting systems and as orrin mentioned we want to make sure that voting feels inclusive and that's i think a missing piece of a lot of on-chain governance is this feeling that you must delegate or you know that you have to sit on the sidelines and not be able to to vote or that there's some information asymmetry that you don't even feel qualified to vote i want to try and break down all those barriers so

there's a test net that you'll be able to use at suckerdow.com that's s-e-k-e-r dao and that will be using the zodiac ecosystem to allow you to boot up different voting types and try out different strategies and we're also going to have the layer 2 to the gnosis chain bridge ready by then the the other thing that i think we'll start to see and i'd like to see is is just more of the existing dow tooling starting to explicitly enable kind of zodiac features in their own frameworks so enabling organizations to essentially spin up an avatar spin up a safe or to bring an existing safe over to their dow and and enable that

progressive decentralization pathways to kind of relatively seamlessly flow into and through kind of those ecosystems uh the dao house guy has been kind of blazing that trail a little bit and i think we'll start to see some of the other frameworks following suit very cool i want to say thank you so much for coming on the show and kind of exploring the zodiac landscape all of the modules how these pieces work together and also kind of how these different voting systems are you know enabling a lot of new ways for communities to interact yeah so thanks to both of you cheers for having us this was a lot of fun thank you very much this is awesome um i want to say a big thank you to the

podcast editor henrik the podcast producer tanya and to our listeners thanks for listening you