Episode 211: It's a wrap! ZK Hack Takeaways & What's Next for the Community

Transcript

[Music] welcome to xero knowledge i'm your host anna rose in this podcast we will be exploring the latest in zero knowledge research and the decentralized web as well as new paradigms that promise to change the way we interact and transact online in this week's special episode we do a five-part interview series all about our recently concluded event called zk hack this is the project that dominated the last few months of my life and it was a pretty exciting feat so zk hack consisted of weekly workshops and puzzle

breaking competitions between weekly events the hackers hacked with a team of four we produced seven weekly events six puzzle hacks we had two partners who built the puzzles with us we had six workshop hosts 16 sponsors and some awesome prize sponsors as well in the end 38 hacked a puzzle and 1200 people signed up for the newsletter and over 2 500 people signed up for the workshops and yeah in this show i interviewed some of the most active or successful hackers and workshop participants as well as the puzzle builders and partners and we wrap up with part of the zk team looking back on what worked and what we aim to do different going forward because the zk

hack doesn't actually end here the plan is to definitely continue this to start doing more events in this direction and grow a unique community of its own focused primarily on zero knowledge learning ck research and onboarding more people into the space overall it was a lot of fun it felt like a really nice way to wrap up the year and i don't think i'm alone in thinking that you know this coming year for zk is going to be very very exciting but i am also very very tired right now as you may also be as the year comes to a close and so i won't be releasing a full episode next week i will likely be back in two weeks with a full episode but i'm also gonna play

it by ear don't worry though come the new year we will be rolling again exploring topics and themes that i hope yeah you'll want to explore with me so before we start in on these interviews i want to first of all let you know about the zk jobs board there's some fantastic jobs there if you are looking for a new opportunity in zk that is a great place to check out over the new year i also want to thank this week's sponsor private storage private storage a private secure end-to-end encrypted storage solution is currently preparing to launch version one of the service it's created by leased authority a leader in the security of distributed systems private storage uses privacy and security by design principles to ensure users have

greater anonymity and assurance that their data is protected its features include end-to-end encryption a zero-knowledge access pass payment system and a countless authorization no one not even private storage can see user data even when it's being stored on their grid visit the website private.storage and register to be notified once the service is launched so thank you again private storage now here are my interviews all about zk hack so i'm sitting with one of the participants of ck hack gershta welcome gershta to the zk podcast thank you so much i'm really happy to be here so i really wanted to have you join us on this zika hack wrap up because i

think your journey is so exciting tell us a little bit about kind of maybe where you first heard about ck hack and what your kind of intention was with the event i decided to start learning solidity in september privacy is something that's really important to me so i was immediately drawn to the zk space i started listening to the zk podcast um so it's crazy to be honest after having started there and i heard about zk hack and then independently a good friend of mine also sent me the link to zk hack as this might be something you'd be interested in so um i signed up as soon as i saw that it existed very cool and when you first started zk hack had you done any any sort of zk work had you worked with any of those tools before

no not at all i barely knew what snark and stark stood for that was the extent of my knowledge you're one of the folks who actually went through each of the workshops as i understood it like did you did you go to all of them actually yes i went to every workshop i did every puzzle i at least attempted the reading connected to every puzzle as well and i attended attended all of the thaler study groups very cool yeah because one of the community members tor put together this taylor actually can you explain what this is it's a book yeah so professor justin thaler wrote a manuscript that is essentially on um zero knowledge proofs and sort of all of the background build up to those uh how all the math comes together and fits

together with cryptography and so it was recommended in the very first event as a great resource i think alessandro is the one who recommended it and so after that first event thor tweeted anybody want to do a study group around this and we started doing it and then he actually got in touch with justin thaler who has now been showing up to the study group so it is absolutely amazing that is so cool you have the author there to ask all your questions yes exactly okay so then so you've done all the workshops you did all the puzzles and i think what's very cool is like despite having started sort of from scratch you not only did the puzzles you actually submitted a few of the puzzle

write-ups with the solutions we actually were hosting a competition for every week we would pick one of the puzzle submissions as kind of the one we would use on the website and you won two of those so tell me a little bit about like maybe how that worked like if you were so fresh to this was it very very hard to write these up or did you actually find that helpful it was helpful for cementing the knowledge i had decided beforehand that if i managed to solve any of them i would do a write-up for everyone that i could solve um so i didn't succeed in solving the first two puzzles i tried really hard i read and studied for two weeks on all this new stuff that i'd never heard of before right i was learning about elliptic curves and parry-based cryptography and field

extensions and i never really studied group theory in linear algebra as i was trying to catch up on all of the foundational stuff from those it was really intense those first was a thaler book really helping on that like was that giving you a lot of that insight or did you have to go outside of it no that book is way beyond the level that i was at so it was actually just an extra thing to do so it actually just like packed more in on top of it damn so it's an incredible resource but it's not necessarily useful if you're starting from where i was starting but so at the end of those i got to puzzle three week three and i had had a good intuition with the first puzzle but wasn't able to solve it with the second puzzle i was totally out

to see i sort of understood parts of it but i couldn't bring it all together even sort of intuitively let alone actually coding it up so by week three i was sort of going maybe i won't get any of these but i'll just try to get one by the end so i was working away at it i started i kind of had the intuition on it but then it just wasn't bringing it home and in the end i ended up solving it monday morning and i was so excited i couldn't believe i'd gotten it and uh immediately started writing my write up i i had to do other stuff that day too right so i couldn't spend all day ready to write up and i ended up um i ran out of time to finish it and i had to just click submit so it went in at like 11 59

and when it won i couldn't believe it i was so excited well i guess you'd finished it enough yeah the one thing i would have liked to finish doing there was to explain how we knew that the final hit was true so i sort of just made this leap in the inside of the puzzle right up and and then wrote up the rest of it and there's sort of more to dig into there in a future life but cool but just to our listeners the puzzles and the puzzle solutions are actually on the zkhac.dev website in the puzzle section you can read those you also won the fifth one i think the puzzle right up for that one as well by that point this is now five weeks in uh how are you feeling were you starting

to get the hang of it yeah so that was actually the first puzzle where the puzzle was on a subject that i already learned about so that was really satisfying i mean i don't think you can get five weeks into learning about zk and not know what the fiasco mirror heuristic is so i did have that under my belt at that point so it was a different sort of approach for that puzzle and i was really i felt like i covered everything i wanted to cover in that and that right up i was able to sort of say here's also how to fix the protocol and you know here are some extra details that are interesting nice and so what's next what's coming up for you you it's actually it was seven sessions i guess seven sessions with six puzzles what do you plan on doing now i

guess you're gonna keep learning or are you gonna start building something well both that's that's the plan the plan is to keep learning and also start building so thanks to uh motivation from you i did submit a bitcoin grant i was planning to build a project anyway um and so i put it up on get coin i was looking for something that's sort of bite-sized but would really get my hands dirty with a lot of different aspects of this stuff um that i've been reading and learning about so i decided to do a zk version of the game of mafia so i put that up and i'll be doing that but at the same time i do plan to continue kind of doing targeted weeks that i thought that worked really well to have like this week we're learning about elliptic curves and this week uh we're looking at

plonk and so right now i'm doing kind of a week on starks i'm just like going through the start tutorials that are out there and building stark proofs is my sort of background project for this week and then i will there's so much to do so i'll find some other ones and try to keep kind of kind of going like that well i hope you do like continue to share what you're finding because i know so many people have asked the community they've put notes in in the chats kind of like how do i dive in how do i how do i get involved how do i learn this stuff and it's it's been tricky to point them in a direction i think zika hack was an attempt to create at least something that we could like experiment with and see if there's something to it but i if

you're doing kind of these deep dives if you keep sharing that i think people will really appreciate you might get some folks who just sort of yeah join you yeah i hope so because i think it can be very intimidating right most of the people doing the puzzles are actually like incredible cryptography researchers at many of these other projects which i didn't realize until i saw like oh ramada you know one and also he's the cryptography researcher at aztec um or william is over at you know at polygon like that that was really cool but there's a way that you can feel if somebody doesn't really know anything you could feel locked out unless you're like me you're just gonna bulldoze your way through it but what's really cool about this space is that everybody has seemed really

welcoming and accepting of like if you are interested in this then we're interested in having you here um and i think that's really cool and so it's like you put in the time you try to learn it you do your best and you just show up and um i will post the the things that i'm working on learning and anybody wants to join me everybody starts somewhere awesome well thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing with us your experience with ck hack and i hope to see you at the next one we will be doing more of these so yeah hope you'll be there absolutely yeah i definitely look forward to it i will be keeping my keeping my eyes on on the twitter and everything else sounds good cool [Music] so next up we have innokenti sanofsky also known as ramada888 from the aztec

team and william barrow from polygon zero welcome both of you to the show thank you for inviting us glad to be here okay so the reason i wanted to have you both on was that in a way you're both like the top competitors in the puzzle competition you know kenti you're the one who won overall first place you ranked every time but william you came in first more often in these puzzle competitions and so i'm just excited to have you both on to talk a little bit about the zika hack experience what it was like for you as puzzle hackers and maybe we should say like you're both already pretty experienced cryptographers so i'm very curious to hear what you made of this exercise but starting off i want to hear a little

bit about how you even learned about ck hack where did it first cross your radar maybe start with you and accounting uh so i regularly listen to the zero knowledge podcast actually it was one of the first podcast i started listening to in general because i really wanted to learn something more about cryptography through them and at the time i think it was the only podcast available uh that dealt with cryptography i really liked your hundredth podcast with del monae dan bernay yeah yeah uh and i learned about zika hack there i was also at that stack at the time i also heard about it there afterwards but i was really interested in the

challenges because i'm somewhat new to the zero knowledge space and i wanted to try them out to learn more than to compete cool what about you william yeah i'm also a big fan of the podcast i think that's the only one i listen to actually so it's so nice to hear thanks yeah and i think i'm um subscribed to like the the zk mesh also and i don't know like how i got the the zk hack mail first but like first time i saw it i was like i have to participate i mean i really like puzzles and um i work in the zero knowledge space so like yeah makes sense yeah actually i wanted to ask if either of you had done ctfs in the past if you had done kind of capture the flag math competitions

or anything like that maybe give me a little bit of a background there yeah uh i mean i'm uh i've always loved puzzles i also have like uh i did the uh physics olympiads when i was in high school uh i do a lot of uh you know math puzzles competitive programming and ctfs are actually like how i got started in into crypto like the the crypto category in ctfs yeah cool was there any examples of ctfs like that like are there kind of annual ctfs or like regularly held ones that you would recommend to people um i'm a very bad ctf player right so i could want to answer that but like you know there's like a few very well known ctfs like defcon or like the google ctf uh which are very hard but like you have

a very very nice crypto category too cool and what about you you know kenti uh i come from a cyber security background not from mathematics or physics uh and i was a reverse engineer in the past but so then i really started to get interested in cryptography more and more and i actually came to the ctfs through matasana crypto challenges these are the challenges that anyone who was interested in applied uh cryptographic attacks at the time that everyone tried to solve so because this was the way to learn practical cryptographic security at the time nowadays there's this crypto hack website which has lots of various

challenges and everyone is trying that and everyone is uh learning this security there but at the time this was the de facto standard so you had to mail your solutions to the metazoan guys so that they'd give you the next set cool so tell me a little bit about how you find maybe zika hack different because i know that like in the planning of it could this is really was kobe's part we i didn't work at all on the puzzles it was all his idea there but i know that even as he was designing it it was clear that it was distinct from the ctf so it may be more common so yeah can you tell us a little bit about how this one ran how it would be different from a ctf there are

big differences obviously the time scale is the largest one because of the initiative usually they are held for 12 hours 24 hours maybe two days and over the weekend so that everyone is accommodated and everyone can start solving them from the start but there are lots of challenges you can try and take different approaches you have the time to to apply yourself to the various parts of the puzzle uh to enter various puzzles here because you had only one challenge that you had to wait for this was a completely different experience because you really needed to put all your effort into solving this particular challenge as fast as possible there was no kind of

approach of trying to go over all the various challenges uh in the regular city i've been trying to solve the easier one first you had to go straight for it so i think that's the biggest difference are ctfs usually organized like you sort of said they're like a 48-hour period but is there ever a series of them where you do like two in a row or is that usually the full event because because we really did it like we were doing it on a weekly cadence so yeah i'm just wondering if you've had any experience like that no there can sometimes be parallel ctfs but i think there was only one time when it wasn't me i was telling them but

the guys from my team were solving first insomniac which was held during the night and then they went for one of the chinese ctfs which was held on the next day and without actually sleeping they had to go for it because it wasn't online phase yeah but that's not usually the case william you kind of ranked you came in first on like i think most of the puzzle competitions week to week i think was it like four out of six or something four or five there yeah so tell me a little bit about how those puzzles were maybe give us a little bit of a rundown of some of the topics that were cool or new or yeah how did they

flow for you to me they were really interesting because they were very close to the stuff i work with every day so like those are like zero knowledge protocols and there's always uh a bug in them or like a mistake in the in the math and so that's like totally different from like most uh crypto puzzles there's like something weird or you have to guess like the mistake but like here it was very real world so like for example the first one was uh bls with a pedersen hash and i mean that's the kind of mistake i could have done right so like okay you need a hashtag function and you use pedersen but yeah it's uh it's not secure there was also one about uh fiat chamier the heuristic that's also a mistake i could

have done right so you don't initiate it with the i don't know the number you have to commit i think if i remember correctly so yeah i think it was very different from a typical citation that way but there was one week where i don't know if you mind me asking but there was one week where did you have like trouble with one of the puzzles was there one that was exceptionally challenging for you i don't want to put you on the spot on that but there was one where you didn't come in on the first three and we were like what yeah so um so i think yeah the solution to that puzzle was uh you had two vectors and two nouns and like uh the second vector was the double of the first one and the second that was the double of the first one

and for some reason that never crossed my mind and so it was a big hint in the in the puzzle title it was double trouble but yeah i never thought of it and so uh i think susana posted a hint on friday and i saw the hint i was like oh okay then it's easy uh inucante which like maybe can you give me a little bit of like your thoughts on the puzzles which ones were exciting to you which ones maybe didn't work as well to be frank all of them were really interesting to me just because uh they were new and especially with ctfs that's quite often the case that uh at least the easy or medium tasks are just reiterations of something you've seen in the past it's it's quite rare for completing your

primitive for completing your protocols so to be using ctfs or something well out of the ordinary and here because it's the ziki space all of them were in the zero knowledge space and it's a rare space to be part of a ctf so that's why it was pretty exciting and most of them were maths based so they had some logic in them like for example the patterson hash problem was uh the linearity there was the blinding challenge also was about linearity so uh this since they i really liked such a mathematical city because quite often in cdfs you have an issue where there's some broken primitive which is knowingly broken

and you have to apply this attack this known attack uh but it's rare case that you have to think of something yourself think of the attack or uh recreate the attack yourself without searching for it so that was really nice cool was there any puzzle that would be your favorite that you would like highlight of the six i mean i really loved the pedersen hatch one i really didn't like how long it took for me to solve the one with the fiat schmidt of shamir transform because i i just didn't couldn't spot it fast enough okay i think uh the one that i didn't

like but it was a decent puzzle but the one that i didn't like apart from the double troubles uh guessing part was the group dynamics one because it was it's kind of classic so there was there was nothing new to me i already had part of the code that brute force part of the solution the only thing i had to do was change the code to work on twists because it is rare to use pairing curves for this type of ctf task got it on the last puzzle there was like a second kind of an extra bug a bug that kind of revealed the bug um did you both spot that or did you notice it more in the chat

yeah i spotted it oh you spotted it yeah so like i solved the puzzle the intended way i think so like there's this paper by uh ariel um yeah which is like very uh detailed on how to break the puzzle and so i did it the intended way and then to debug i changed the parameter in the code to see if like if everything worked correctly and like i changed the parameter and then the puzzle still worked and i was like okay something something fishy is going on and then i figured out there was a bug and like one parameter of the setup i think was zero or it shouldn't have been and so yeah i used that in my solution actually and then kobe messaged me on discord saying like are you sure are you sure about your solution and i was like

yeah i think there's a bug and you know katy you didn't catch this one you just solved it straight no because i tried to solve it as fast as possible the straight way so i went for it and well try just try to apply the paper by ariel there got it but yeah there was a chat i mean i we saw that i mean i think it was spotted at least publicly someone mentioned it about 20 minutes 30 minutes after i think they sold it by chance that was the funniest thing they just submitted the a different proof and it worked yeah so that's actually the fun part because if you if you create the proof as intended so like to recap the puzzle you you had to cheat on the public inputs right so like have a proof that

proves like wrong public inputs but like if you put as input the right public inputs then the puzzle like would succeed so it was quite easy actually to solve it even if you haven't seen the paper okay is there any last thoughts you want to share about zk hack any wishes any recommendations i think you mentioned that you wanted to uh to plan ah in-person zk hackathon and so yeah i'm uh i would be totally down for it like i think it's a great idea i think we have like quite a still a small community so like i think there's like 500 people on the discord and so like we still have a small community and so like it could still be like great

to to meet in person and like hack together yeah i also fully support an offline hackathon because well meeting others in person is i think would be more important than anything else during zika hack just getting to know so many talented people would be great if however it was it had an online part i think moving it to a weekend would be great because people in particularly unfavorable time zones would be able to take part in it then uh right now on a tuesday at uh 6 pm utc i don't think japan is taking part in

yeah that's a really good point i think time zones with with uh online events are always a tricky one but i like that idea we could also potentially alternate times we could like do them on you know one would be earlier in the day one would be a bit later to give a little bit more balance i like it cool okay well i want to say thank you to both of you for coming on the show thanks also for hacking and congrats on both of you in your own way kind of winning you got both of you got nfts because you made it into the top ten you also got some other prizes that uh i hope you are going to check out gonna find in your wallet but yeah thanks again thank you for organizing it it was pretty nice thanks for having us

[Music] so next up we have joshua and joe from anoma anoma was a partner on zk hack the team at anoma actually worked with kobe to build the puzzles so yeah welcome joe and joshua hello thanks for having us i want to ask you both about how it kind of worked for you internally like did you both build all three or did each of you take one and run with it we each built one puzzle along with our uh colleague simone uh who built one of the other puzzles um and we pretty much worked independently on each one cool tell me a little bit about how the ideas

came to be like how like i know that there was a group where there's a lot of discussion about like what these puzzles should look like what was that early part of it like where you're designing them out uh we discussed a little bit amongst ourselves about what kinds of puzzles would be interesting and certainly kobe had some ideas there was a lot of overlap we came up with several puzzles that were too close together so we had to go through several rounds of creativity before we settle on on some puzzles that we thought were interesting but um kobe certainly had some suggestions as well and that helped us zero in did you feel like as you were building them could you tell how hard or

easy they would be like we're like this is gonna be a hard one when you release one i can say that i definitely did not i was completely unsure if this was an easy problem or a hard problem my problem was something i'd been looking at for a while so it kind of came easy to me and i wondered if it would be easy for other people as well when i told kobe about it he thought it was a good puzzle so i just uh accepted that um but yeah i had no which one was that uh i did uh number four the um hidden in plain sight tell us a little bit about that puzzle what what was hidden in plain sight what was that focused on oh yeah so that puzzle has to do with uh blinding

polynomial commitments and um you have to be careful with how many blinding factors you use it depends on how many times a polynomial is opened the more times you open it the more blinding factors you need to use so that puzzle there was an insufficient number of blinding factors used which allows someone to make a system of equations which can then be used to test a guess at the whatever information is trying to be hidden in in that puzzle there were a thousand um accounts which were the data that was supposed to be hidden

and so um there you have a thousand guesses and uh for each for each account you can you can check to see if that account is the one that was blinded okay but what was the bug exactly then like what was the exploit it was to to show that you could actually guess it if you wanted to yeah how would a hacker actually show that um by picking out the uh the account that matches the uh the commitment but if it was broken could someone also just try each one until they got that one and still not submit a code like no not submit actually a solution uh yes you can um i mean that's how you solve it you you

try each one until you get there but uh the the part that is um that is the actual solution is is showing this uh this system of equations um being solved you can't just uh guess straight away you have to go through this extra process of deriving the the blinding factors very cool okay joe when you did your puzzle could you tell if it was going to be easy or hard sort of um because we had discussed with kobe before about um he had really been excited about doing something based off of the zcash proving system or right the bctv14 proving system

so we kind of knew going into it that if it was going to be based off of that original uh proving system bug that if someone is familiar with the proving system already and familiar with the bug then it would probably be relatively straightforward and if someone went through the reading for the puzzle and you know understood all of it then it would be easy for them but if the person had not been so familiar then it probably wouldn't be so easy um and so designing it uh um it felt a little bit like uh designing a homework problem um it wasn't uh

it's very difficult sometimes to decide how easy your hard homework problem was gonna end up being yeah um but we we felt like if someone had done the preparation that it would it would just end up being very straightforward it didn't require very much creativity at all so that was the one where there was sort of a double bug hey yes can we let's chat about it um it just shows how difficult it is to implement these uh these proving systems correctly yeah it um it had a soundness bug which was based off of what we had intended to plant in it um but it also had a soundness bug which was just an implementation error it was

just a coding error which wasn't even necessarily a bug in the proving system it was just a uh it was just a bug in the how the proving system processed its input and um there's um if uh familiar with the puzzle we're familiar with the proving systems in general there's this step where you transform constraints into polynomials and um the step well fairly standard um was missing some some important bits and this resulted in ignoring certain inputs um under certain conditions certain conditions being the ones that happened in the puzzle

but at the same time like do you think this hurt the aim of the puzzle being a puzzle to show you and explain to you kind of how easy these bugs could be or where they could be do you think that there it almost had like a meta education to it it definitely did for me i mean uh you know it it i think it demonstrates um you know when you remove the usual care and uh caution and um thoughtfulness that you should have when you're writing um cryptography code when you remove all those things um then this is how bugs like this can happen right um that uh you wouldn't want your uh the person building your airplane to be doing it at

1am you know after they've done like their they've built all their regular airplanes for the day and they're building like this extra you know extra special puzzle airplane um no you wouldn't uh you wouldn't want that you would want uh every time you're building something too to be careful in its construction you want to be have multiple rounds of you know different people looking at it from different eyes make sure there's nothing obvious missing different layers of testing like all of these things are are designed over many years many years of experience to know how to prevent bugs like this from from like sneaking into code totally

joshua would you have wished that you could have actually hacked on the hacks because that was something maybe to note i don't know if we were super overt about that but the building teams weren't really allowed to participate because you know they knew stuff so but when you were watching this go down were you kind of like oh i wish i could do one of these yes the reason i say this is if we're doing an extras we're doing a new zka hack in the new year um maybe we if we have a different building partner maybe you get to uh yeah and it would be very cool to be on the other side potentially uh i thought the um the the other puzzles that i i was aware of were uh pretty interesting and i and none of them did i like know right

from the bat like how to solve it so i would have enjoyed having the chance to uh to take a crack at some of these nice did you get a chance to see any of the other kind of events and things around zk hack what was your overall impression of it i i thought that the concept was really um really nice to have i mean there's just not very many events and materials in this space i think this is kind of a um i i don't want to say a niche area of cryptography because it's becoming big but but certainly i think there's uh you know uh like a very small amount of materials um i know that on discord um they're discussing justin tyler's book

that's just an example of how how few like textbooks are available for the service and i think uh um people are piecing this stuff together from blog posts and miscellaneous papers and um there's there's a certain lack of unifying view of the entire thing and so i think having these workshops and uh heck contests did a good job of bringing a lot of people together into one space with one sort of unifying theme cool i agree uh i'm mostly self-taught in this area and the the materials that i had to work with were academic papers and completely untechnical blog posts

and there wasn't much of anything in between which would have been a nice stepping stone through the through the material so having something like this i think is uh is really cool i mean that's a question that keeps coming up everywhere is this idea of like where to go what resources people should check out do you have any any recommendations maybe today like what you're saying back back when you started there was nothing but do you think that there are some other like resources people should try to check out well um justin thaler's book uh that joe mentioned i think is a good is a good one i'll just uh plug some articles that i wrote a while ago um sure i did a series called uh planck by hand

in which i uh i take the the planck protocol and literally go through it a step by step by hand and pen and paper cool kind of to show that it's not as spooky as it it seems uh to do this math it can be done uh it can even be done by hand although i do kind of inadvertently show how uh just how complex even a small example could be um but uh you can find that online if you if you just search plunk by hand it should come up yeah we'll try to also add that to the show notes um so our listeners can find that out well cool so thank you both for coming on and sharing with us your experience of zika hack

from the perspective of a builder i do hope that you are at the next one either as builders again or potentially as not if you want to actually get to chance to be hackers and thanks again thank you thanks so much [Music] so next up i'm here with errol head of education at elio and alex ceo at elio aylio was also one of the partner teams of ck hack so we worked with elio to actually build three out of the six puzzles like the anoma team aliyah was our other partner so yes i want to say a big welcome to both of you to the show thank you very much anna it's a great pleasure to be here and it was a great pleasure to participate thank you anna looking forward to the

discussion i want to start this a little bit with you alex it was i mean you know kind of where zk hacks started way back when i mean we're talking what was it like august that we started this conversation i think september so yeah yeah it's been amazing uh to see it grow into what it's become totally and so elio joined as a partner team building puzzles much like onoma the previous guest we actually talked with the onoma builders but can you tell me a little bit about what it was like from the alia team to sort of do this like what feedback did you hear about this sort of puzzle building team yeah no i i think the team really enjoyed it and you know specifically on

you know on on our side you know we have pratyush uh mishra who's cryptographer from berkeley uh university of california berkeley and uh you know he has a an academic background and and i think for him it was a lot of fun to kind of create puzzles that were educational right i think it's a it's a an applied way of learning this space and it's fun i think for both to make the puzzles but also to see people solve them and so i think that for us was really really kind of there's there's kind of a two parts uh of fulfillment for for participating in something like this so it was really cool mm-hmm in this space in general like do you feel like finding talent or maybe

training up talent is like a bit of a challenge i feel like i'm asking a very obvious question yeah yeah yeah thanks thanks for the uh yeah layup appreciate it no uh no yeah it's it's it's everybody you know i think every everybody listening to this podcast who's certainly who's had a company in the space you know i think knows the struggle to find people who uh you know are number one talented but also i think it's just just knowledgeable to a basic level it is difficult and i think this is one of the great things look by the way besides you know zk hack i mean this is one of the the important things that i an important service that like this podcast provides right and kind of the other stuff that you work on anna uh and others as well throughout the space you kind of

contribute this a community-owned repository of knowledge if you will that people can kind of pick up and get up to speed in the space but the thing that i think has never been done before that zk hack is really breaking ground on is you know the podcast is sort of a passive exercise right i said i can sit you know hang out with my kids listen to a podcast but here's it's an active the requirement is to actively think about what these concepts and what they mean but also apply that knowledge in something very real and you know i think that's that's a much more effective way to learn teaching i think you know as we've seen there have been people who've gone from zero to hero effectively in the span of the seven weeks zk hack which i think is amazing and so um yeah so i think it's

great we had one of those people on in this episode actually yeah someone who used his as a boot camp um errol you hosted the alia workshop so you were one of the workshop hosts doing we did this weekly cadence every week a new team introducing new tools new concepts kind of how did you approach that from from your side putting together a workshop like this yeah it was interesting to to think about there wasn't too much communication between the different teams to try and coordinate and make sure we weren't overlapping a lot of the content and it was a difficult decision about whether to just you know focus on on the programming on introducing a compiler language leo and and teaching people how

to use it or doing a technical deep dive or some balance between them so we just kind of looked at the technology and try to think about what kind of people would be there and what would be most useful to them and we try to find a balance between seeing some cool cryptography and how it works but also why it's relevant and then bringing in the the compiler language to discuss you know how to use it and and when to use it because i think this is something that was missed a little bit before um that's actually that's a really good piece of feedback and something that like i would take with me this idea that making a connection a little bit between these workshops like we really did just go workshop after workshop we kind of we saw some teams do some things other

teams do other things we weren't really giving any sort of program but do you think that would have been helpful actually if we had like had structure or do you think it is good to sort of let the teams present the way they want i think in an ideal world you want some structure but right now things are kind of already everywhere and it's difficult to find that communication and it's like this is where we want to go right and hopefully we'll get more into this but you need to build communication between the different teams and also understand the space a little better to decide what to present when and this is still a big problem all the people really smart people who are making the new protocols they're so busy trying to implement them and make them faster and better that they have less

time to teach everyone the important parts of them and there's this gap that we have to bridge now so yeah errol i thought you know you know obviously it was the alia workshop so i'm maybe a bit biased but i thought you're you know i've presented a lot in the space and seen a lot of presentations and i thought you did a really good job of uh capturing the audience's attention and kind of bringing everyone along with you in a narrative and i guess with something as complicated as this subject i mean it's you know cryptocurrencies alone are kind of like a whole thing right and then you have compilers thrown in there and then zero knowledge cryptography i guess like how do you prepare how do you think about structuring education when there's that much ground to cover and making it accessible for everybody i just curious how you

approach that yeah it's it's a very difficult thing um fortunately for me i also learned the stuff along the way like i come from a mathematics background and i didn't know too much about compiler languages and so when i was learning in a few months before i was asking myself all these questions and i tried to take note of the things i understood and didn't understand and what i thought might have been useful to know earlier on you had this this idea of like the larger ecosystem this is kind of where i want to take this part of the conversation it's like the larger ecosystem and education and onboarding more people i mean the goal with what we did was definitely to like do an experiment to do that but i want to use this time to sort of explore how we could potentially do that better so one

idea was better communication maybe between the teams i think one of the challenges there too is that there are actually different approaches there are different dsls there are different you know schools of thought there are different even academic programs or teachers or labs where a lot of these people are coming out of that might have you know their own sort of different perspectives on how things should be done and so i do wonder like the concept of a standard has sort of been brought up a few times in the zk space but also pushed away because it's like oh it's too early to do standards potentially but yeah i am trying i'm trying to think of like how are there ways for us to get a little bit of a baseline knowledge so that we can actually just

at least give people a chance to find some resources that actually lead them towards working in the space and that it's not that they're always like funneled into only like one team's you know curriculum yeah and i i actually think you know i think standards for an industry are important and it sort of is a you know symbolic of how much an industry has progressed but i think i almost think for zk hack my personal view is uh and this platform my personal view is that's that's almost the opposite of what you want you don't want to you don't want to make it a stamp like a one-size-fits-all kind of path i think it's the diversity of ideas and opinions is kind of one of the beautiful things about this and i think one of the one of the risks of trying to become a standard

bearer is that of course every individual project or team a wants to be the standard b is going to be upset if they're not but i think but look i think the reality is and i think even the most competitive people in the space um would acknowledge that look i mean it's very very early and just and i know in the amount in the span of time which you've had the podcast i mean think about how much this space has evolved it's incredible i know and these ideas are completely you know that started out as kind of just at discussions like and now they're they're you know they've been implemented and i think it's amazing and i think and and having that a place to explore all of these different approaches without a competitive framing is really great and i think that's something that really will do the most

for bringing more people to the space that's my belief although i think a little bit of competition like the puzzle competition also helped you know like i think if it's just purely like actually if we had done just a seven week workshop series i don't think it would have had the same feeling do you know what i mean like i don't think i don't think it would have been as exciting for people from the participant standpoint i think the participants like the active participant i think you learn more than a passive participant so i definitely think like you know the fact there's a competition the participants are competing i think is great but i don't necessarily think at least to me like having those participants compete in as diverse an array of challenges uh i think is great mm-hmm so maybe

that's what i'm getting at are there any other places or industries this may be to you or like do you have sort of a bit of a vision for how we could actually develop sort of education in the space so and i agree like with you alex zk hack maybe doesn't need to be like the zk hack event the way we did is pretty cool the way we did it but like maybe we can as part of this new community also start to create some of those resources or start to build a little bit around it do you have any thoughts on like how this industry at this time could do it maybe based on other things you've seen i think there's many perspectives you can take on this and there's kind of two learning routes we want there's the first learning route of teaching people

what the technology does and what it can be used for not how it works but just why it's relevant you know what's what's the difference between mena or elio and ethereum many people hear about snarks but they don't actually know really what it means but they see that there's something cool they're happening and that's like a smaller amount of work to recognize the value of it but then there's the other big thing happening in the space of all these new companies with all this funding they want builders they need people who understand the cryptography and can build the circuits and their proofs and this is a very large barrier to entry because generally speaking it's going to take at least six months to learn all these things there aren't yet university courses where you're going to

learn all the required tools most people come from two backgrounds that's either like a mathematics background in which case they don't know the computer science or the coding or the computational complexity or they come from a computer science background in which case they don't have the prerequisite maths and in order to bridge that gap it takes like six months and these companies they're just saying we want people to build these things but they're less willing to say we'll bring on somebody for six months and teach them all the stuff and then they'll be of use so they're all fighting each other and trying to offer massive salaries to bring them on board like those that small pool of people who can do both i guess yeah right and there's this gap in the middle and then you

because of the dynamics between companies of course they kind of want to work together but some of them are also competing and then so pulling resources to to build all this educational content is a difficult kind of political problem and i i think ideally we want some kind of course whether it's six months or a year where people can learn all these things and then we can shoot them off to companies where they'll be useful i mean i know there's there's projects like ox park and that's a grant-based project but they're actually running like a curriculum it's a very very small cohort like they're doing a very like thought out planned educational path with a group of people um but i also heard that they were like

crazy oversubscribed to use cryptolingo but like like there was just a ton of people trying to get into that and they actually didn't have the capacity to do like a massive course obviously like i'm so excited to find out from them what and i hope to get them on the show next year actually to talk about this but like i want to find out what their learnings were from that to understand if there's things that we could help from this side to contribute to i think like this conversation is kind of circling around one of the biggest problems here i think you've kind of mentioned it but i just want to reiterate it this idea that like in terms of content there is this very high level very blog posts like super kind of it's like zkps are cool and they're special where's waldo like

even like sometimes like the shows that i've like when i've talked about zkp's that's usually what i present like the very kind of high level story and then you have the densest academic papers you can imagine and that's those are the sort of two options and so when you see like a list of the best ckp resources you're usually getting something like that you're getting very high level concept descriptions and then deep deep deep papers and there's not really the bridge between them i don't know that we solve that but i'm curious if you're if if this is sort of the paradigm you're thinking of and like how do we fill in that middle for sure i think that's a really great framing i mean in order to get to the six-month training where we're built and

getting people to become builders it's going to be very helpful if they have an understanding of why they should go down this route and i i think maybe one of the best places there is to like this format is a podcast and it's been really really helpful but some people it's very useful to have like a visual format too and to make videos where we explain the things in a in a different way because some people listen to podcasts but sometimes you don't you know i spent a year listening to podcasts because i was commuting and then when i stopped commuting i stopped listening to podcasts but sometimes you know on a sunday i'd wake up and just watch youtube for a little bit so it's there's different areas in life where people will watch or listen to one medium but they won't do another

and the medium is also different if you can see something compared to just hear it it can help there so i think if we start making some videos explaining some of the mathematical ideas whether it's recursion or proofs and then also discussing real world things like the the companies alio and how we're different to other companies and and what they do because there are currently youtube channels which explain a bit of this stuff but they also generally speaking have like an investor mindset to their real question is like should i buy this coin or not but that's not the focus we want right we want the focus of how does this technology work and what can we do with it yeah i find it funny that like doing this podcast for the last four years now like over four years has been my kind of

learning journey into blockchain into zero knowledge into all sorts of things and yet actually i know for myself like only hearing is the worst way for me to learn like i don't retain as much as i as i could if i had a visual or if i was writing notes like that those are the things that actually i know for myself i learned better from but i found it very fun and challenging i think it also might make me a better host because i like forget and have to ask the questions again you know but anyway yeah yeah i mean there's kind of this myth that we have different learning styles like one person's an auditory learner and one person is a visual learner but this isn't really so much true it's more that for different mediums you should learn

it in a different way like if you're doing geography and want to talk about where a country is on the map you don't just like say it to the person you know you don't just say you're an auditory learner i'm going to tell you where this place is on the map it's a very you know silly idea you'll just get the map and show them because it's much more effective this way and i think a lot of these mathematical ideas and computational complexity ideas if you visually represent them it can help a lot with the understanding like whenever mathematicians talk to each other if they don't write it down it's just kind of forgotten immediately because there's so much to hold on to and we overload our working memories it's just a bad kind of medium and don't you think there's almost something to me

when i when you talk about this it makes me think of like the potential for the visual representation of some of these mathematical concepts could be incredibly beautiful like they could look so cool you know and and i mean already you see it a little bit like i mean we've seen like generative art and we like we obviously math can do cool but like zk math specifically circuits couldn't there be really really compelling ways to present these that would also help people remember them and remember and get into them and be able to like classify them a little bit in their own minds i i think another fantastic educational resource specifically around mathematics that i think a lot of listeners to your show would be familiar with is three blue one one brown right and three blue

brown is you know this is exactly what that channel is right it's about taking these abstract mathematical ideas that maybe you're exposed to in in school and then visualizing them and making you know to errol's point it's about kind of matching the you know the the teaching style to the subject and and it's a medium the visual medium is just one where i think you can do a lot of really cool and interesting things teaching the subject so um yeah that's something that i personally would love to see more of in the zero knowledge space yeah massively massively agree the software three blue one brown uses is now public like anybody can use it but it's been hard to find animators because you know there's not that many people doing it i think one of the key things is that the people

who really understand the topics deeply uh the the proof systems they don't really have time to to learn how to animate and you know this is why they're not making those videos it's the same reason why three blue one brown is there right why didn't other people who understood the topics make those videos themselves before and it's this video creation is is actually quite difficult and takes a lot of time and unless somebody's focusing on it you're not going to get these videos come out and this is why we want to go down this route a little bit to help create this visual content that will help so much i think there's a there is a way as long as the industry stays vibrant into the new year let's see how the bear bull market is going but if there's still

funds if you if you look at the way funding has evolved in zk especially recently it's been wild like really really there's a lot of excitement around zero knowledge stuff there's a lot of desire to fund things even do grants i guess i don't know if you call them these grants but like you know a lot of these teams are actually like dedicating huge amounts of money to fund and to develop a zero knowledge community maybe on their own network what have you but i feel like there's parts of that that could definitely go towards something like this if someone wanted to to run it so like this idea of visualizing some of the zkp stuff is something that we're pursuing at alio and like we've given or we're getting ready to give a grant for someone to animate and kind of hopefully a three

blue one brown like way some of the stuff in arrow you know maybe you can say a few more words about that but that's an issue that we really really believe in and by the way if there's anyone out there listening to this podcast who has you know skills as an animator and is interested in helping with this definitely reach out to us um on discord um or i can get i can leave an email for you in the show notes anna and you know we'd love to consider you for a grant because we view this as like you know it's obviously good for elio the company the more people who know this stuff but again i think this is really really important for the industry and and that's that's really what i care about in the context of zk hack is because the potential this technology is

so real and so huge and really my mind has really only held back by the fact that not enough people understand not not how it works at a deep level but but how it works enough to know what you can do with it and that's what i think we need to educate more people on i also do think timing is really good for this because right now and we i've said this i think earlier even in this episode but we are seeing the tools to build ck stuff really coming online for the first time where i mean there have been tools for a while but they were extremely hard to use and it was a very small subset of people who could actually onboard themselves into those tools but when you get into a place where the actual programming languages that can touch snarks are a lot simpler and a lot more

familiar similar to maybe things that other people are you know used to and yet they are interacting with snarks but they're not forced to like dive as deep into the like circuits and and the you know parameters that like a more sophisticated you know cryptographer could use but someone who's actually just trying to hack something together to get an mvp wouldn't need this is where i think we are really at a moment where we're starting just starting to see that happen and it's very very exciting to me because you know the dream and i've said it already the dream of zk hack is to also one day do a zk hackathon and so far it's been really hard to think of what that would even look like and now it's starting to seem more real

definitely totally agree i think many of us believe in when we're building these l1 one of the main points of the l ones is so that people can build useful services on top and people can't build the additional services on top if they don't understand the value of it and how to use the tools so if we're not helping explain this to people and we're not trying to make tools that it's making it easy for them you know if they have to learn cryptography to make a tool not many people will do it if we're not doing that we're kind of doing ourselves a disservice and and making our l1 slightly redundant because we're making something great but not telling anybody how to use it that's not a pragmatic solution it's not a pragmatic goal yeah i think you're right do you think

the fact that we've been forced into an only online context for so long do you think this is like good or bad for the way that we're onboarding people because i have to say like the fact that we haven't been able to meet in person to do something like a hackathon the type of collaboration that you know happens the way teams are formed i mean you can do that in an online context but yeah i'm just curious if you think that that has hindered or helped i mean zk is also super super technical so maybe it hasn't been a problem maybe it's even like helped people focus i'm sort of on the fence myself here if it's like if you need the in person in a digital ecosystem i think being online for the last year i think has been a great thing for zk and i'll tell you why i think

before when everything was in person i mean i think i think you more or less had clusters of this knowledge that kind of were around individuals that occupied physical spaces be they in universities or b they had companies and i think it just you tended to get the people who onboarded onto the space were kind of at or near one of those physical clusters and i think because everything is has moved online sort of by default like it's leveled the playing field such that you can get totally new people with like that has no barriers at all to accessing some of this expertise right and it's i think that to me and i think what people have realized and i've certainly realized is that man there's the latent talent of so many people out

there and the latent curiosity of so many people out there is just so both surprising and amazing and incredibly encouraging and uh you know talent and interest and so i think that to me has been just one of the great things about having to be only online and i definitely think you know i i hope to that the world kind of returns to more in-person events at some point too but i think this aspect of you know how we've we've lived our lives and how we've operated in the last two years i think that that part is great cool earl do you have any last thoughts on the education question on zk education concluding remarks about education is is that it's a it's a massive problem that is relevant to all of us and it's going to take some time to to build these

courses and to build the content so the quicker we can get started and informing people and building communities around it the better our our industry is going to do long term and the earlier we can start seeing more real world impact sounds good i think we're all on the same page for this thank you so much for coming on the xero knowledge podcast and doing this sort of zk hack wrap up with me thanks again yeah thank you it was a it was a pleasure to be on today and it was a pleasure and an honor to support this initiative so thank you for letting us be a part of it massively uh looking forward to see what we do next so to wrap up this series of interviews i wanted to bring on my co-organizers

for zk hack here on the show i have susannah and tanya welcome guys hey hi so suzanna what why don't you tell everyone what you work on so they can get to know you yes so since may i've been working full time for zero knowledge validator kind of doing operational things doing some events general running of the business in a kind of small company setting so kind of everyone's doing everything and before that i was doing a phd in bioprinting so absolutely nothing to do with crypto a bit of a pivot but um yeah nice and what about you tonya

so i just joined the zero knowledge podcast team in september and i know anna and zk summit from berlin and yeah first zk podcast i'm producer of the show and work on some sponsorships and events and for this particular event it was actually a co-production between the zero knowledge podcast and the xero knowledge validator and so actually we brought susanna tanya plus kobe to the mix and that kind of rounded out the team that put together zk hack sadly kobe could not make this interview and it's real bummer because kobe was sort of the inspiration at the beginning and i i do hope that um if i get a chance over the next few weeks i will try to do a bonus episode

like a short bonus interview with kobe about ck hack because i think yeah he's kind of an important key person but kobe's focus was primarily on the puzzle part which i think we've covered somewhat in this episode what we worked on was much more of the organizational operational running of the thing so i kind of want to do a quick throwback to like august yeah just like when we started to come up with this idea do either of you think that zk hack turned out the way you had expected it to be or the way we sort of originally conceived of it back then so i i guess for me when we first started to talk about this concept of the zk hack we were actually considering doing a full

hackathon in person but then you know covid made things difficult and we actually sent out a feedback form to people to ask what people thought about doing an in-person event whether they'd actually be able to participate in a hackathon in an active way and actually create something in a short time span and a lot of the answers were saying that they're really interested in their knowledge but they actually don't think they would be able to necessarily build something in that time frame so i guess from originally thinking oh in person hackathon to kind of changing that idea slightly it did evolve but i think it's actually been more productive than doing

a hackathon that people wouldn't be able to necessarily participate in fully and this is kind of like a precursor to something else that might happen in the future so of course it's hard to compare like in-person events but i still really value the benefit of it being virtual and it bringing together like a global community so that doesn't totally answer your question but i just because we've seen some really cool events like virtual events come out of having to you know do things virtually um yeah i joined the team once the idea was formed a bit already but i just wanted to say like a massive shout out to the team because the amount of coordination behind the scenes uh susanna anna and kobe that required

to put together a brand new event that you've never done before and it lasts for at least seven weeks yeah a huge feat i mean going back something we didn't talk about so much in this episode so far was that kind of pre-planning and putting this together i think we started back in august and our idea was let's do this seven weeks let's see how it works like in in retrospect i mean i i know i'm coming to it thinking seven weeks was a lot and i think it was really good but i also think we we pushed it like i don't know if for future zk hacks if we need to do seven weeks again i have this sense like we could probably accomplish something very similar in

fewer weeks although i am curious to hear from like the audience if what they thought like those people who did participate if the seven if the sort of cadence of like a slow week to week cadence if that was right or if they would have preferred something more dense i think on that like you said um the seven weeks like maybe i was like from the puzzle perspective because the leaderboard essentially stayed the same from about the fourth puzzle i think so that was just like the way we did the scoring maybe you need to change that for next time or something um but like the top three i think stayed the same from week four so maybe

this it's like one thing that suggests it was a little bit too long and i think people will um after having been through it once like us included will understand these puzzles like we saw by the end of it the last workshop which was the mena workshop which was a huge community turnout people were asking for more puzzles yeah so i think now that everyone has kind of seen it in action i don't know that there's many like puzzles like these that have been out in the wild yet it'll be easier for people to jump in and learn and um and there'll be a set of resources i mean we saw a lot of resources come together through this in the discord channel we have a bunch of people that put together study groups

um paper reading groups and just listing out resources so i think this is a good foundation to help hopefully the next one be even bigger so what do you what do you both wish for for the future of ck hack i guess for the future it would be like open call to the community to get some feedback on components that we could possibly add to zk hack different yeah because this was a complete brainstorm and experiment and we thought it went really well and i think we want to continue to improve on it and make it uh super useful to beginners intermediate and advanced what about you susanna i guess one of the like framings for having the length of the zk hack was

because we had so many parties that wanted to get involved um you know like sponsors people wanted to hold workshops and i mean i guess that's kind of a testament to the dk community kind of thriving and being alive and there's more teams that would want to get involved as well um but was kind of constrained by the timings so i guess in the future you'd want to get the other teams that didn't get the opportunity to necessarily host a workshop or something to get them maybe more involved i think i think when i look back on ck hack i think of it like it was a marathon not a sprint we had week to week we had to kind of get a routine going but i do think that like having done it once i feel like going

forward we can be more creative we have a lot of the material in place to do it again too which is great and i know i mean my current thinking around it and obviously no promises we don't know what the next year holds but i do get the sense that we could do we could do something like this again but next fall but in the meantime maybe we could do something smaller uh because i think we have it somewhat set up to do more and yeah i did like the fact that as you mentioned in the last session there are people being like when's the next puzzle like no more puzzles we're done yeah i think that as well is like because we were bringing together communities from different projects like sometimes maybe not everyone from those specific

communities necessarily knew about the prior events so for instance that was like the people in mina and the event was last so i guess they just didn't necessarily know about the earlier events but hopefully now they do know and then you know in the future they would actually be able to do the puzzles from start to finish one last thing i want to ask you both is now we're wrapping up the year of zk how do you feel about the community you've both been working with me for at least six months i think susannah you were full time with working on zero modality for a little bit longer but like yeah what do you feel reaching the end of this year what does the zk

community look like to you i mean well since i started in may i mean that was like my first entry point into blockchain as well i i think it seems like each event that we've done it's been kind of more vibrant and grown a bit in each kind of event series that i've worked on and i guess that's really encouraging in itself at the same time i feel like in september october there was kind of quite a lot of discussion around likely to zk proofs for roll-ups this kind of thing and maybe that's encouraged the community to grow even more but from like my perspective and looking at kind of attendance and

how the discord has grown it it seems to be going in a positive direction and hopefully that continues into the new year and you're even jumping in you've like done some you've done some of these workshops haven't you oh yeah i mean i i followed along with the um the stock net one and i did a bit of the mina one as well uh it's my basic coding skills um but yeah i'm happy to hear that too okay tanya what about you i mean you've actually been in the space longer than just the time you've worked with me but i know that now it's been much more of a focus on the zero knowledge community so what what are you seeing as we roll kind of round out the year yeah so before i was involved a bit in

the zk community through my work with lease authority i got to learn about it and now it's deep dive into zk which is really interesting and i it's what i really like about these very early stage communities it's kind of the the scene where it's like everyone still knows everyone and i love that stage of communities and you see it you just kind of feel a buzz that it's growing i mean i guess there's always growth when it's you know when it's still early stage and i think anna you've said like people have been saying for a while like this is the year zk zk and so maybe i'm a bit naive and i'm think but i'm thinking this like you know yeah that there is something coming yeah they have been saying that for a while yeah you see you you have been weathered

by them yeah it's coming yeah so but me being like new to the deep dive into zk and just how quickly it's grown and and there are not only our events but some other events and seeing the numbers of attendees at those events um it seems like there's a strong interest to learn cool all right well i want to say thank you to both of you for coming on the show i want to say thank you for working on the zk hack too so we made it yay yay okay i want to say a big thank you to you tanya the podcast producer the podcast editor henrik and i want to say thank you to all of our listeners and all of the zk hack participants this is the last full episode of the year we

will be back in the new year so yeah thanks for listening [Music]