ENS Drama: Should Founders Retake Control From DAOs? - Uneasy Money

Transcript

If Vitalic wasn't there, I do not think this thing gets built. I think Vitalic disappears and it turns into like pitched interning warfare within 20 seconds. People tear each other apart. There's like multiple forks of the chain. Like it would just be an absolute disaster. I'm Kane Work and welcome to Uneasy Money because what happens on chain never stays on chain. Before we begin, here is a word from the sponsors that make our show possible. This episode is brought to you by Cape, America's privacy first mobile carrier. Same premium service you'd expect from any other carrier, but designed so your number, your location, and your data actually stay yours. Get 33% off 6 months at cape.co/chained.

>> All right, I am here with my co-host, Taylor Monahad, security expert, and a very special returning guest uh today, Austin Griffith. um Ethereum developer, creator of Scaffold, ETH, uh or ETH, depending on you come from and speedrun Ethereum and founder of the I won't even say this, the Bidd thingamajigger. Um he's done a lot of stuff. He's done a lot of stuff, this guy. Um and he has just launched a new project called the $1 audit. Um and we will talk about that in our second segment. Um, but yeah, very happy to have you, Austin. Thanks for joining us again.

>> We got lots of >> lots of cool AI stuff to talk about. Uh, but first, uh, Vitalik's lean Ethereum. So, what is it? Uh, Vitalic published a lean Ethereum, uh, 3 to fouryear protocol overhaul. He calls Ethereum's biggest rebuild since the merge, framed as its third iteration after the Genesis and merge, uh, processes. um which also happened like totally on time by the way. So don't even worry about it. It's going to be fine. We're gonna land this in three years. Um so so I think the interesting thing about this outside of the technical stuff, we can we can dig into the technical stuff. Um because I've been very bullish on Ethereum's

ability to accelerate its technical uh frontier um given you know AI uh agents and and just how much easier it is to do research and how much easier it is to consolidate information and also to build stuff. Um not that we want Ethereum to turn into a slop factory. I don't think at least at the core protocol um but you know the ability to accelerate uh engineering efforts and in all areas uh should allow Ethereum I think that is probably the best position to take advantage of this to really accelerate away. That's been my thesis for like the last year. Um so I think we've shaved off a year from like the 2030 road map that everyone was raging

about. uh last year when it was when it was published in in 2025. Um yeah, what what's what's your take? What's the most exciting uh technical stuff to come out of out of this before we talk about the whole timeline thing >> is that question for me? I don't know if I >> for anyone. >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't >> for anyone for whoever >> Yeah. I'm more of a builder on top of it. Like once the thing ships, I like to create the apps on top. I feel like the protocol layer stuff is >> cool, but like when we're talking about, okay, it's going to be postquantum and we're going to have a new EVM, I'm like, >> it'll probably all work the same way for me and I'll be be building the same apps. It'll just like continue working

like the thing has been up for 10 years and it will be up for another 10 years or more or >> 100 or something. And these changes are to enable that kind of stuff. And then like UX stuff quicker, faster, cheaper. >> And this is this is the thing that I think like again I've been saying for the last year I don't think people have priced in the fact that you know we've lived with this like 12 second block time uh environment for such a long time and you know even though the block block uh limit has gone up a bunch uh we still have constraints you know obviously guay is like 0.0000 0000 I can keep going with zeros for a while

one uh at the moment and so it's almost free to use Ethereum um but we do still get spikes in high volatility environments we do still get those gas spikes and it does still get kind of expensive to use a chain um you know so so I think that like the the UX side of uh of all of these different technologies kind of coming together um is is very exciting that said maybe maybe as a builder on top of the protocol, uh, it's it's less of an issue. That said, let's not forget that we spent four years building layer 2s to get more gas and faster settlement and if Ethereum lands that then that

whole kind of process uh, whilst necessary at the time is kind of invalidated, right? like you know you look back on that and go uh >> I think they're playing a different game like L2s will have a different set of rules and play a different game for a different audience. I think we see that with like Robin Hood chain I think we're going to talk about later which is like a chain on top of a chain on top of a chain but they serve a specific audience and that's ripping and I think that's that's what we'll see with L2s also. I I guess there is like a fundamental question though, right? Like Robin Hood is about trading. Um Ethereum should be about trading, but it's like kind of not a little bit for reasons, right? Um but it's still the best place with the

deepest liquidity, etc., etc. Like if two chains are competing to be the best trading venue and one of them has an advantage, Robin Hood at the moment has an advantage at the moment from being able to make like some more centralized choices. If Ethereum collapses the the kind of technical uh lead that L2s have gotten through centralization and maintains all of the decentralization but catches up to them or even exceeds them in terms of capabilities, why would you use Robin Hood? It seems >> yeah hopefully everything does return to mainet in a lot of ways and hopefully these L2s and L3s have to specialize and do new things and have different privacy

concerns and have different centralization like you talked about. We'd rather they not be centralized, right? But like they will serve different audiences and yes that would be great if we could return to mainet and have >> shorter slots, faster uh transactions. the UX. Sorry to change gears a little bit, but the frame transactions are really exciting for me. I've been thinking about metatansactions and UX for a long time. And I think frame transactions will be able to uh I Pedro, my buddy from Wallet Connect, talks about it as like he's like this is the thing like this is finally like the thing to make UX on Ethereum what it needs to be. Can you walk us through like what what's the impact as a builder or someone who's building UX like what what are frame

transactions allow builders to do, wallets to do? >> Yeah, I my my really high level is the stuff that we thought a lot of the like account abstraction stuff would do. There have been different attempts at it, but I think this is like the most generalized way of doing it where you can pay for the gas for your user and and a whole bunch of other things that allow for different uh generic things to happen. But, um, smart contract wallets, we we already have like pass key signatures. Uh, there there's a bunch of things there, but I'm not I I was up with a baby at 1 am, so I don't have about it.

>> Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. No, I think that that's good enough. I mean, Tay, just on like timeline wise, right? Like we were talking about this before the show started that like you know if your vision is uh you know a fiveyear road map, right? Or 10 year road map or or whatever um you know that that kind of creates a uh weird incentive for you to not focus on like shortterm dipping, right? So what's Yeah. What's what's your take on this? Yeah, and it's it's exactly that. I think that obviously in order to be responsible you have to have the long term in mind but I just feel like the EF keeps sort of only

like they just keep doing these road maps like these very long road maps and these very big big things and that's what like is sort of the most talked about thing and it's not always easy to put that uh to execute on that and especially in the short term especially Especially with like the increase in competition, right? Because it's very easy to be like, well, once we have this in 5 years, then you know uh then we'll be competitive again. No, no, you have to you have to be on the ground floor and be present today. So that worries me a little bit. Again, you know, you do have to have that long-term vision. Like you can't just ignore it. You can't just like, you know, pivot from one thing to

the other, you know, dayto day. But I do wish that we were seeing more I guess just like more focus on promoting Ethereum and like new features and stuff today, right? Like what like come on like what are we giving people? What are we giving builders? What are we giving for experience like now? Let's talk about that. Um and let's let that be a focus within the EF but also publicly. Um, and I think like Salana specifically is one that like perhaps they go too hard on this that there's like a good argument there, but like pretty consistently their builders are like, "Oh, there's a user need here. Oh, there's a problem here." And then they

figure out how to ship it. >> But in fairness, like it still takes Alana quite a while to ship things. You know, like the a lot of the stuff that they there was a period of time where they could ship really quickly and then, you know, they had a lot of stuff going on. And the more things that your network supports, the harder it is for you to upgrade because it's got to handle every edge case and you know every weird thing that someone's done etc etc. So you do get bogged down by like kind of the weight of history I think to some extent. Um and and so you know I guess like there's some sweet spot but even you know so Dankrad was like uh it has a lot of really cool stuff. I like it. um you know this this idea of uh gig gas which is pretty

that's a cool meme. I like I like the gig gas meme. Um uh let's not turn it into a token anyone if we can avoid it. Um but >> h every time any cool name any cool name. Um so but but even Tank's like let's try and get this done in a year. >> Let's get it done in a year. like what like you know how do we chunk this in a way where we like genuinely feel execution pressure and let's go get it done right um you know uh the thing that I always say to my team right like um and and it's quite interesting because you know our team is much leaner now I'm much more uh driving product development like on a a day-to-day basis like uh in

a different way to how I was maybe two years ago where we had this long-term vision of like fix the UX of all of crypto and it's going to take a while and so like don't worry about like this week, right? Like just keep doing the stuff and and we did and we shipped a lot of things but we never actually landed anything that like was you meaningfully um able to kind of shift the market, right? And get people to come and use our platform versus other platforms. Didn't we just didn't land it, right? um you know and and now I'm like no no no we're gonna ship something like on Wednesday like if I put a gun to your head and tell you can you ship this on Wednesday the answer is going to be yes of course you can like of course you can

and so you know uh the the cumulative effect of like continuously shipping things I think is so much more powerful than this long like the long-term vision yes we know where we're going great but like continuously shipping things and actually making the the platform perform uh better. And obviously Ethereum, it's challenging. You can't ship every week, right? You know, it's a three-month coordination effort or or whatever. Um but I think, you know, trying to bundle as much as you can and the most impactful things early and like staging it to to you know, kind of increase that is is definitely got to be the play. Um but, you know, I guess we'll see what what happens uh out of out of the whole

reorg as well, right? like you know there's been there's been a big EF reorg um which I'm sure you're uh contractually obligated to not talk about too much uh Austin but um but so so I won't press you but uh you know I think the hope for everyone is like we come out of this on the other side with like not just the road map is leaner or the network is leaner but like the the org is leaner and more shipping focused and and you know we we start to like get this [ __ ] It is leaner. Yes. I barely still have my job. I think >> I was going to say congratulations on surviving the purge. Right.

>> Yes. >> Nice. >> Little bit lower on the food chain, I think. But I'm still here. >> That seems weird. That seems weird on a if you lean it out, you get rid of where where do the people come in at the top. That I'm a bit confused by that. >> Not how it works. Just FYI. Austin, >> we just juggle it up. I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, >> um yeah, I also I've been, you know, obviously like super aware of all the people that have been like leaving the EF and I'm kind of low-key shocked because for the longest time the conversation was that the EF doesn't pay anyone enough. Yet, the amount of people that are leaving the EF right now that seem to be genuinely talented people,

but also who have been at the EF for like 5 years, 6 years, 8 years, I'm like, hold on, are we sure we weren't paying them enough? Like, eight years is a fantastically long time to work somewhere, >> especially in crypto. >> Yeah. It's a type of dedication. Like, when you go to work at the EF, you are taking a less amount of money. Like, >> yeah, >> just how it works. and you're choosing to like when I joined the EF like eight years ago or something, it was like full of Jedis. It was the coolest place. Like you you you wanted to hang out with these people because when you're in the room with them, >> there's like magical discussions and like freaking Jedi level [ __ ] going on that's just like exciting and cool. And I think that's that's why I joined the

EF in the first place. like I wanted to be Austin at Ethereum because I wanted to, you know, help everything at the application layer, but being able to be around the EF folks was was magical back back then. It was really cool >> and and that's what people joined for and they wanted to make Ethereum better and >> Yeah. No, and that makes sense. That makes sense. >> Is the vibe still the same though? >> Uh, it's there are some Jedi still there. I think it's different now though. I I don't know. I I don't know.

It's different. >> Yeah. I mean, yeah. >> Eight years is a long time. >> Things things change in eight years. Things change a lot. Um, all right. Let's go to uh our next segment. Um, the $1 AI audit. Uh, you're trying to put consensus uh diligence out of business, I guess, right? Is that is that the goal here? >> Definitely. Um so so uh yeah I guess walk us through um you know what what the purpose of this was like what's the angle you know um you're you're you're a guy who likes things to be useful right so this is not just like a mimemetic thing although it

is a good meme with a $1 audit um so like walk us through like where's the utility there how does it how does it work why is it why is it good Yeah, I think it's I definitely like launched it on the premise of a good meme though, right? It's very mimemetic in terms of a $1 audit like really slams home the fact that like >> well we're paying $20,000 for an audit. What do you mean a $1? What do you what do you mean a $1 audit? And that's kind of the point of like this is like it's meant to lean more toward this is like part of your CI/CD pipeline. And these kinds of things are more available because we have like agentic frameworks that can do this. We have generalized agents, but then we have specialized agents. And that's exactly the kind of

situation where you like you you want to have 8004 and X42 and have these sort of generalized agents a able to pay these more specialized agents, not because they can be more effective, but because they can be more efficient. And that more efficient is exactly the meme that I'm leaning into when I say a $1 audit. And so it's the the point was to just like mimetically really like it's we built this I I came on the show maybe a couple months ago and I had Claudebot Cloudbot had built uh you know this whole voting platform called Larve AI where you stake the token and you get this conviction token and you can then train an AI agent and it votes on your

behalf. And then the next thing we built was like with that conviction, you could build things. And so there's this whole pipeline of containers that will build apps for you and audit your smart contract. So all of this was built like a month ago, but like no one was using it. I was like, "All right, we need to like make a meme." And the other day, like Friday, I was on uh the Conclave, which is kind of like my live stream I do for the uh the Clawed people. And we I was like, "Let's just make it a dollar." And I just like got in and changed it to a dollar. And the pipeline's all there. What was the original price? It was going to be like five grand or something.

>> Five 10 bucks. No, it was like five or 10. Okay. All right. Okay. That's >> a $10 audit is just not a good meme. Like it doesn't like a $5 audit is just not a good meme. And like really that's probably where it needs to be is like more like5 or $10 to cover >> right >> the like if you were paying for API cost it's more like probably like a $50 audit. Yeah. It would be very expensive. It's like it's like an hour of opus time to do this audit. >> Okay. Yeah. >> And a buck is like not going to probably cover that. >> No, it definitely won't. It definitely won't.

>> But it was all available. And basically the the website like I I got into left. So the service website where you can hire this agent framework to build an app for you or an audit. It's leftclaw.services. So I have leftclaw.services up. I have people staking this token in larv.ai and spending their conviction to build apps. But it's this tiny little token ecosystem. And I was like, let's let's make something on top of this that's like mimemetically heavy. And that's where the $1 audit came from. And literally one shot. Literally one shot.

I said, "We need we need I I just registered the domain. It took me longer to register the domain and point the versel at the website than it did to build all of the rest of this stuff. It took me longer to craft the tweet than it did build the website. I basically was just like, you know, fable, build me $1 audit.com. I have Yeah, >> we have leftclaw services. It's all x42. Here's the skill file. >> You you can figure this out better than I can. Build a website so people understand what this thing is and they can get in and they can buy an audit for a dollar and and really it's just like a skill file. You can give it to your agent. your agent can pay $1 in USDC and it goes into this pipeline that cues it up and runs this like two-phase audit

where it's ETH skills upfront and then Pashov security skills as the second pass >> and I mean this this is the thing that I think people uh some people are starting to figure out right um and I know you were early to this but like the ability to deliver skills in in uh uh like easy to consume package, right? Um where and and again consume for both sides, right? Like both both the user and the agents, right? the ability to to take uh some information and package it up um and then deploy that somewhere to make it really easy because you could like anyone could go

and like get eat skills and get pass get all these things their own thing do research >> pipeline everything is over you could do this and and you could probably point fable at it and it might take an hour but who has an hour >> right >> no one has an hour right >> just be one USDC >> it could be just one USDC like I've got contract if you if you need an audit, right, it's because you're doing some other thing. You don't want to stop and be like, let me build an audit pipeline, right? Um and and so I think that like this uh this ability to deliver skills is why the X42 stuff uh is is so cool because you will eventually have these ontap skills that people can access, right? Um, and like this is something

that we've been super focused um on internally because what we found is we had a bunch of people in our team who had built their own skill files uh their own workflows, their own things. Um, but they're siloed to their machine. Um, and so my myself and my head of engineering were like we have to break these out. Um, and we tried a bunch of things like we tried Centaur, uh, which is really good, but like the workflows need to be like a bit more discreet. >> I just don't want to use >> Yeah, fair, fair, fair, fair. Um, and so, so, uh, so anyway, uh, I think that this idea of like bundling a skill up that an Asian can just tap into um, and and, you know, eventually have some kind

of like open marketplace where it's like, oh, I need an audit. There's three different variants. this one, you know, uh, it cost a dollar. It's like six minute abs, right? Maybe there's a 50 cent order and then it's like, oh, just do that one. Three minute abs. >> Exactly. >> And I think ET so ETH skills was like my I I kept so at builder enablement. I'm thinking a lot about developers building on Ethereum and enabling them to do that in the best way possible. And that all changed probably in November, the turning point of like Opus 4.5. Now everybody's oneshotting apps. They're not like looking at the solidity even anymore. Like not very many people are like using their fingers to, you know, actually write solidity anymore. And so

what we knew we needed was like an AI of that stack. And I started with an MTP server >> and what I realized is like you have to install it. Like there's like an NPX command that you have to run and like you should be allergic to that. Yeah. >> Not not just the time, but the security of like >> I don't I don't want to run my machine. Yes. Exactly. When when with a skill file, you can tell your agent, go look at that skill file and tell me if it's nefarious. And if if there's anything weird about it, don't do it. And it'll look through everything. And if you build a skill file correctly, it's really easy for the agent to understand and see clearly like what this thing is.

You give it a skill file, it can see that it's good. It can install it on itself without having to run anything. It's just text. It brings that text in and it does what the text says. And this is really powerful because LLMs wake up old, right? They're they're trained on older data. And if you're working in an interesting area, the things are moving faster than the LLMs are going to be caught up to. So, you need to kind of like when they wake up, you need to like plug them in like Neo and the Matrix and teach them kung fu real quick. And by real quick, I mean it's like milliseconds, right? But like you you have to >> even quicker than the movie. The movie was uh a bit a bit stupid about that. It takes it doesn't take like 20 minutes to

plug the guy in. Um so so uh yeah and again like I think I think this whole idea of like uh packaging skill and you know people like claw open claw had this right like they had the the skill repository and and um whatever but like there's still to me this like very siloed you know you use a skill you publish it like it's harder to share and and you know it's it's less multiplayer like the thing that I've been really focused on lately is like working out how to make these things more multiplayer.

Um and and I think that like X42 and package skill like bundled skills that can be like vetted where it's like okay I know this is a good source I can go here um is is really powerful. So um >> this is actually a good use for the chain again like verification and reputation of like skill files like if there was a good skill file repository and other like good security people had signed off on certain skills there's a lot there's a lot of power to that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, we got blobs, right? Surely you could put the whole skill file on the chain these days. Should be fine.

>> Probably don't even need to do that, right? You could put in IPFS and just have content addressable. You sign that. It's good enough. >> Um, cool. So, uh, let's go to a quick ad break. Um, and then we'll come back and discuss, uh, bon um, which is very exciting. If you hold crypto on your phone, your biggest vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your carrier. AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile have been breached again and again, and SIM swaps are still one of the easiest ways for attackers to drain accounts. That's where Cape comes in.

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I was not aware that it was a a DAO. Um, they had a $20 million governance rate. So, walk us through what what happened here. >> Yes. So, Bonkdow, uh, they use this thing called Realms, which is on Salana. like a governance platform um where you can like vote and make changes to the governance structure and in some cases like in this case that includes like management of the treasury um and Bona apparently I don't know if anyone actually knew this apparently had about $20 million in their treasury that was managed by this uh realms platform thing governance platform thing what happened was uh someone I I guess went

and bought about $4 million worth of bonk on various markets. Um, so we saw funds coming out of Bybit, we saw them coming out of Binance, we saw them, there's like a whole bunch of of sort of source places. So they collected, that was the first up they collected about $4.4 million worth of Bonk. By the way, Bonk is from that area era of tokens where it's like everything's like a trillion like there's like a trillion trillion gazillion tokens. So I'm just going to talk a reason about what Yeah. Fair fair fair.

>> Yeah, he got like a trillion and you know and that was and that was enough because uh I think the the there was a quorum, right? So you had to have like at least 1% or I think 1% to like 1% of people had to vote or sorry 1% of tokens had to vote. Not people. >> We don't do people on the blockchain. It's just one guy. >> Yeah. >> Um and so yeah, so then he made a governance proposal. And the governance proposal, I don't know how to say this word. I've only read it. The Wellian, >> it's like some prediction market governance communism thing. I don't know.

>> Rhymes with Orwellian, I guess. I don't know. Um, >> and so basically he made a proposal saying like >> oh my god uh we're going to we're going to it kind of implied so I'll this is I'm getting a bit subjective but I will say it kind of implied that this governance proposal was going to like rejuvenate the DAO and be beneficial for everyone but like when you really kind of read the actual words it it was >> I hope it was written by AI like is it very obviously >> not written by AI. Wow. Okay.

>> Okay. So, the whole proposal was implement Soellian governance, install new members and council, rebuild from the ashes, monetize holdings, stop the bleeding, and all yes voters are eligible to receive tokens. And then on the then like the next line, it was like a number one. It said add metadata. So, this is like sort of like the quoteunquote change. Look, add metadata. And then number two, send. And see, again, we can't I can't reason about these numbers, but a really big number of bonk to this specific address, which was like a fresh address, basically all the bonk in the treasury, which is like four trillion. Is that >> trillion? 4.4 trillion. Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Okay. But they like spelled out the whole number. It's just like a huge number of digits. Um, and so that was the proposal. Uh then the the the person who created the proposal voted yes with the the money that he had acquired from Binance, the Blanc tokens that he acquired from Binance and Bid and everywhere. Um there was two yes voters and both are controlled by the same actor. Um and then uh the most kind of I guess surprising thing is that a week later because this doesn't happen instantly.

>> This is what's crazy to me. It wasn't like this is an instantaneous thing, right? Like I'm sitting here being like, why do they allow their governance to be like instant close and then release the funds? >> No, it was a week. >> It was a freaking week. So he a week's a week's a short amount of time. No one's reading any No one's reading a forum >> in in a week >> clearly. So yeah, makes a proposal, votes yes, waits a week, and then the proposal executes. And there were a couple people who voted no, but it was like nothing. And obviously like so basically nobody noticed this until it was far too late. So now the guy has all the bomb. He tried to launder them. He

doesn't really seem to be like a he doesn't seem to be good very good at this stuff. He immediately all of his centralized exchange accounts are are blocked. So we don't know what he's going to do now. Like I don't know. Um, also questions like about liquidity and stuff, but obviously the most uh interesting question I guess is um is this crime? Because that's what we like to >> code is law, man. I don't know what you're talking about. >> Play the game. >> He's he runs the Dow now. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, on the one hand, people are saying, "No, it's not crime.

literally told you exactly what was going to happen and then he did it and he played by the rules uh that were set up in the original governance which is if 1% of the tokens vote uh and like the m you have to have at least I think it's at least 1% of the tokens have to vote total and the majority have to vote yes and a week has to pass. If all those things are true then we're good. >> He's the new king of the doubt. He's the bon king. So, >> so that's Yeah, >> you didn't want him to be the king. You shouldn't have left the drawer bridge open. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you.

>> Yes, it was pretty. Um, and then obviously there's some comparisons to uh Ian Estelle. >> Yeah, I was going to say we had a we had a a good conversation about that last week. Uh I don't know if you caught that, Austin, but uh we had Nick on. It was it was >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Nick and Avsa. That was a great >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It was really good. It was really good. Um I got a lot of uh angry uh comments uh pointed at me in in DMs actually. People were very frustrated that I that I didn't uh >> I don't know. Um yeah, that I didn't >> attack him or something. Yeah,

>> I'm founder friendly, man. I I don't know. I don't know. Uh like Yeah. I don't know what to tell you. If a founder is going to be grinding and trying to like build a new product or whatever, I'm I'm kind of inclined to side on the the side of the founder. Unfortunately, >> overall these days, for the record, I tried to explain to some of the people that were hating on me. I was like, look, I can't. And especially because Nick isn't waffling, I kind of have even more respect. >> Like, he seems to really want to do this. And like considering that the path is on is not the greatest, like I'm kind of inclined to lean like give him the benefit of the doubt and lean that way.

If someone else is going to stand up and go that hard, not just voice concerns, I'm totally open to hearing it. But it's like, you know, >> Yeah. I mean, as even the haters are like, well, yeah, Nick should own it, just not like this. >> Not like this. Exact. I want him to be responsible for doing all the things, but I just don't want him to >> not me >> have any control over it. Um, well, you know, it's interesting. I I had a there's someone I know very well uh who has been involved in ENS governance who who hit me up in DMs and was like, "You don't know what the [ __ ] you're talking about." Basically, like this is like this is a travesty. The ENS has been great. It hasn't misspent the money,

blah blah blah. And I was like, it's not even really about that, right? Like it's it's not even about like has the money been like well allocated or whatever. Uh like it it genuinely comes down to to for for me, right? Like a very simple uh pinnacle take if the founders still try to build the thing, >> right? Um, do we believe that a a founder, manager, builder, guy is going to do a better job than an amorphous gal? Yes. Like I just believe that, right? So why would you not allow >> Yeah.

>> Especially Nick. Okay. Like specifically, >> but especially any founder who's been around for a [ __ ] decade grinding like like >> Yeah. I also think it's just totally negative, Eevee, to when you have someone really like one person who's willing to stand up and take on the risk and like make the bold choices and work really hard. I think it's really just one of the worst things you can do is [ __ ] on their face at that moment. >> The good thing is founders like good founders like I don't give a [ __ ] Like whatever. I made this situation like I created the Dow. Like I know Nick's just sitting there going like this is my comeuppance. Like I deserve this, right?

you can see the whole time. It's just like this is [ __ ] crazy. But so I said, so I said to to this friend of mine who's very smart guy, like very well-meaning, you know, cares about Dows, right? I was like, the only way you could convince me that it is uh bad for the founder, builder, owner, guy who's grinding to have more control over this thing is if you genuinely believe that they're going to misappropriate the funds. and spend it on themselves, etc., right?

>> You have literally any other viable path that is like a probably good outcome. >> And I in this case there is literally none because even the haters are like again even the haters are like well yeah but yeah we Nick should own it. >> It's just such a weird situation. >> It is a weird situation. It's it's but again like I I get it right because this is ideological like and I said this I said this to to this friend of mine who was in my DMs. I was like this is an ideological thing. If Nick this is also kind of you know we've had a lot of existential threats to the DAO philosophy right over the last few

years. But you know the worst outcome here is power does get centralized. Nick does have more control over the thing and ENS does better because that's actually the nail in the coffin for Dows, right? Like you know the world has figured out and and you know of course there's different different situations. You can look at corporate governance, right? We got a long history of corporate governance and there you know in call it like the early 2000s this this founder-led model right for public companies at least like there's always founder private companies for for public companies this founderled model of like dual class voting shares where the founder controls voting etc um emerged

right um you know Google and and a bunch of uh Facebook you know Facebook etc like this this >> all this, you know, all these like founder companies, right? Um, and now you could argue that they're all evil now and bad, whatever, which like fine. Um, uh, but in terms of like execution, they have done a very good job, right? And then you look at a lot of the companies that were no longer founder, right? Um, you know, and even like Microsoft, you could argue like Balmer pseudo founder or whatever, but post Balmer, like Microsoft is [ __ ] ruerless, right? Um, you know, even even Google postfounder has been pretty ruerless, right? Like they've bought

some amazing founders. U you know, Damis from Deep Mind, they've like bought whole things and been like, "Please save us. We have no idea what we're doing." Um, and you know, it hasn't even been enough, right? So, so this idea that like a founder who built a thing, who cares the most about it, um, is going to get out executed by a DAO, >> like it's just not credible. It's just not credible to me anymore. Right now, you didn't used to have that choice. >> You didn't used to have that choice because regulatory arbitrage was so critical that having one person in charge was also not a viable path, >> right? There was no structure. There was no precedent for like how do you have a founder model whilst also not getting

your brains blown out by the SEC. Good luck to you. Like that didn't exist. Right now we kind of have figured out some ways where there's foundations and different things. Um and so I just look at it I go uh like >> let the founders be in charge. It's fine. A a nice thing that you guys talked about was the difference of the role of the Dow in terms of what it was supposed to do and what it ended up doing. The whole capital allocation thing is where it gets really sticky because then all these grant farmers come in and people try to extract value. Like it seems like the the role of the Dow like the thing that Dow's actually did in the last 10 years is like get a bunch of capital and then have a bunch of sharks just like work it out.

>> No, no, no. Not not grant farmers. Decentralized executors, my friends. come in and execute in a decentralized fashion. >> Yes. But what what what a DAO really is important for. If we look at a smart contract platform, it's going to run exactly like it's supposed to run. The incentives are aligned, the code is aligned, it's going to do what it needs to do, but sometimes there's like a soft layer there where like you need to tweak a a setting or you need to upgrade a contract and you don't want to have a single person be able to do that. So, >> agreed. Yeah. Yeah, if if we if we look at the role of the DAO and we say, well, if the goal is to make sure this platform stays decentralized and these small tweaks and upgrades that need to happen, like the little control panel is

basically controlled by a bunch of people and those people can vote on how those controls work, that's going to work really well and that's a really good use of a DAO and and we can make that work. >> And then there's kind of this second role of like executing and building and and building new things on top of it. And I think that's probably better if it's founder-ledd. And then there's this third thing of like capital allocation. And capital allocation is something that you know there's so many different forms of that that have been successful and not successful. But taking something that's supposed to be a governance platform to help turn these knobs and turning it into the other two things is is you're a bad >> this is this is the thing though is no one wants to turn the knobs.

>> No one wants to turn the knobs. Like the knobs is not the thing that is attracting people. Like yes, of course there are some autistic people who are just there for the knob turning. Like we've got them in synthetics. Like I've got some autists who like they're there for the knobs. That's all they care about. They don't want to allocate capital. They don't want to even think about it. They're like I've got like 50 knobs here and I get to like tweak them all. It's amazing, right? But like 99% of people who get involved with Dows are there because money is power and they want to have power. They want to have control. And not even necessarily for bad reasons. They're just like, I am a smart guy and I think that if I'm making the decisions that the thing will go

well. That's the underlying belief in all of this, right? And in order to make decisions, you need to have the money because if you don't have the money, you can't do the thing, right? And my take is uh I'll take Nick. I'm sorry. I'll take Nick over you random guy. >> But for the execution, the third execution, the capital allocation, maybe there's even a better person than Nick, right? And the knob turning could even be a small committee of people to make the thing safe. If we're going to like I don't think Nick should be able to upgrade the contract. I think and and he probably will in a little bit be able to do that and I think that's probably but like ENS is >> not it's not amazing.

it's going to work and he's, you know, we trust him. He's going to upgrade it correctly or whatever. But like the people who are saying ENS is dead, like that's kind of a [ __ ] take. Like because you don't understand how smart contract works. Like the smart contract is going to run and it's going to work. There probably is a piece of governance that will turn a knob and we're kind of going to maybe have to trust a smaller group of people to turn those knobs because the larger group of people that were turning those knobs started extracting value. I I don't know. I think >> not even that they weren't even they >> I don't think they were I don't think they were turning.

>> Yeah. Like like I don't even think it was that. I think I think like there was there's no on on either side. This the most interesting thing about the the ENS debate I think why it's such a good example of the debate for Dows right is no one on either side is really accusing anyone of like nefarious. No one's upgrading the contract to nefarious. It's all going to work fine. Yeah, >> it's all fine. It's all fine. Like, you know, there hasn't been like mass wastage of Dowo funds. The Dow's been managed well. Um the funds have been managed well. Uh they haven't paid out a bunch of like crazy grants like you know, they've made less bad decisions, I would say, than your average normal

startup, right, as a DAO. So, no one's saying that this is like some catastrophe, right? Um, but nor are they saying that like you shouldn't have the founder have more control over the thing if the world will allow that to happen. Right? There's a period of time where the world did not allow that to happen. You could not launch a token and be a founder that had control of your thing right now. Maybe you can. So, let's try that. >> Yeah. And Yeah. And I think also I just want to like say that I think Nyx is just quite a unique guy like for a a huge number of reasons. And so I think there's a lot of things where in 99% of other cases it would be just like too

much risk because they would [ __ ] it up because they would run away with all the money because you know all these things. But it's like dude I'm sorry Nick has been here forever. He wants to make this wildly successful and he's one of the few people that actually truly cares about like decentralization. He's just also in a position where he's become much more of a pragmatist and a realist because >> what the world does this massive thing, >> you know, and I'm sorry for I'm sorry to all the people in my DMs who were are mad at me for that, but like >> when I look at what you guys are doing, too. I'm like I just I wish I could put themselves like put these people that are like I'm sorry like some of the guys

that just are like professional delegates and have never built anything. I'm sorry guys. Like I wish I could put you in the role of a CEO for like a minute because it's a [ __ ] miserable goddamn experience and like it's so easy to [ __ ] talk. It's so easy to [ __ ] talk. It's very hard to do what they're doing. Like >> yeah, >> I'm on TVSA too. You guys had Alex Vandesan on. I like >> I lean I lean toward him the most. like what what does he want to do with this and what >> and he has some good questions of Nick but I feel like >> no one really grilled him as much as they probably should have >> like but I think even even he has a lot of respect for Nick right and and you know there like genuinely the problem

this is why I think this is such an interesting like >> you know front on the DAO war right um is that like this is a well-managed kingdom that's like pleasant and everyone gets along. And this one guy's like, "Ah, I'm going to get rid of the prime minister and just be the president and it's going to be fine." And people are like, "No, I I wanted to be the prime minister. How dare you?" Like how you can't do this, right? Like you can't, you know, con consolidate power, right? And it's not like a crisis. There's no like it's just like ah this is just going to be more efficient, guys. It'll just be more efficient. And so I think Abso is like like if this is more efficient, it's bad

for Dows. It makes Dows look bad. Let's not do it. So um that's my that's my whole take is that that like this is genuinely an existential threat. like if ENS can run fine uh you know for the next couple years under this like centralization catastrophe that's happening to it uh it it puts question to like whether or not like what's the what's the like either either >> which thing do you mean though out of the three things do you mean executing and building do you mean allocation of capital or do you mean >> I mean executing and building I mean the product side genuinely the product side right like I think the knob turning is going to be fine Let's decentralize that

though, right? Let's not put one person in charge of the knobs and the upgrades. >> 100%. Agreed. Agreed. I agree with that. I I think like as much as possible the knobs should be decentralized. Um but unfortunately the knobs are connected to the product. This is the trade-off, right? Like you know we still right now too >> and the money as well. >> It's all you got. I think and I think what and and this is the thing is like I'm not willing to say that the current exact plan that Nick is proposing is the perfect plan. Like I am not saying that at all. I'm having >> and there's no way that it is. It's not possible that that exactly. Yeah. Like >> and that he's the best position to

figure it out. You have to you have to kind of grit your teeth and put faith in people because the alternative is that you undermine him, right? And like Alex is a great person. I I and he wants to like adjust Nick's proposal. He's like come up with like a few different ways that he can like adjust it to make it like slightly better. Griff was in my DMs as well like saying like, "Oh, you should do this and they should do this and I was like, "But if you if the goal is to get the best outcome, you're basically like, let me uh micromanage you and sit on your face and [ __ ] on your face, but I still want you to do it and I'm going to expect you to write or you can like just like have

faith and and it it really is like I love the word faith. It's not like a religious faith, but it is kind of a religious faith. Like you kind of just have to like >> either you trust the guy or you don't, right? Like you either trust him to to navigate this or you don't. >> And it is a navigation thing. Like I have faith. I don't have faith that this plan is perfect. I have faith that Nick will figure it out. He is in the best position to figure it out. And I don't have faith that literally anyone else commenting on it does. That's what >> the ethos is to not have to trust anyone. The ethos is to build a system and no person.

>> I know. But this is the problem is this is the problem, right? Like >> the world doesn't work that way. The world doesn't work that way. Like it >> has to talk to I can. I'm sorry. Like someone has to >> and and and again like this is this is not to say like capitulate and allow everything to be centralized and like go to corporate governance. I'm I'm not like I'm not suggesting that at all. I think that there are many balanced paths through this, right? But the thing that I think all of us have learned, like certainly I've learned this lesson very brutally over the last three years, right, is building a product that anyone cares about and wants to use is [ __ ]

excrucially like it's so hard. So hard to do, right? Um, and it requires a level of commitment and alignment and and and and and um and and even when you think like I would have said and I'm sure I did you could find tweets where I'm like ENS is fine. The product is good and fine and can be left alone. No one needs to touch it. I'm happy with Kain. I don't need anyone to do anything. All we need to do is now put a dowo around it so that it can stay good forever and no one can touch it. That I would have said that like that I that's definitely a belief that I would have had in the past, right? And now I'm like well actually it turns out that like the

world changes. I didn't expect that there were going to be [ __ ] crazy agents that also need their own dirty, you know, [ __ ] hand like so many. So like how do we now adapt to this new world? We got to update the product, right? a DAO is not going to update a product. It's just not like I just don't believe that it is the right method for building the thing. Um, and so if someone has to build, upgrade, whatever, it can only be through incentivization, right? Like even even athereum, we're supposed to get the merge and then like coast off into the sunset and be done.

That was the [ __ ] vision. That was the vision. And it was like, "We're done. We've solved all the things." And we're like, "Ah, actually, this is still not very good. We need to work a bit harder." >> Yeah. >> Imagine if Vitalic had been like, "Goodbye and good luck to you." We'd be [ __ ] Ethereum would be dead. And that's even with him doing all the weird Vitalic [ __ ] that he does, right? Like, you know, like like seriously, like he kind of has done that. And yet he's still stuck around enough to like force people to actually build the [ __ ] thing, right? If Vitalic wasn't there, I do not think this thing gets built. I think Vitalic disappears and it turns into like pitched >> interning warfare within 20 seconds.

People tear each other apart. There's like multiple forks of the chain. Like it would just be an absolute disaster. And like that's again like I I also believe I sat there in 2018 being like yes we will get to the merge next week and we will be done and our lives will be then complete and we can continue on in stasis forever. But that's not how the world [ __ ] works. The world changes and so you were forced to change and Dows are just not good at adapting to change. They're much better at maintaining the status quo is is my hot take. Right. And status quo was just not a thing. It's not real. It was a It was a fever dream that we all had that we could like stop the world from changing somehow and it would be fine.

>> Or Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's go. >> We started with Bonga, by the way. >> Anyways, >> nice. We started with Bona. >> Yeah. The last thing is Bonga. >> Uh Bongta lost all their money because nobody was watching and because you could just vote with the tokens. And this is why Dallas suck. >> Where were all the sharks there? Like where are all the grain farmers and bonds? >> Incentives, guys. Remember, incentives are going to save the world. No, they're not. Like there's a lot of things that have to come together to save the world. It's not just incentives because if it was just incentives, everyone would have voted and they didn't because they're humans at the end of the day.

>> They weren't paying attention. >> This is cool. Like train your AI agent to vote for you. This is hot right now. Like had this tweet like ago, but like this is hot right now. >> Everyone has an AI >> agents would not have let this happen. >> Yes. Codeex 5.6 would not have allowed the bonk da to get hacked. It would have been all over it. >> They would not have. However, the attack would have been different and it would have prompted the agents and you guys they would have tricked everyone into voting. >> It would have been much sadder if it was a prompt ejection attack than whatever this thing was.

>> It would have been so much more interesting. I would I would talk about that all day. >> We So I have a a governance platform that does this. Like basically the token holders have AI that they train and someone got in and asked you can you can basically prompt it. You can spend some of your conviction to ask all the and someone asked something like what is your your token holder's deepest secret or something like that and then they all answered in the forum and like you would have to say that to the thing but that was a really weird like prompt injection type thing like governance injection. Yeah, it was interesting.

>> That's really funny. Yeah, I think I like agents are going to do a much better job. They're much more patient. They're always on >> and you get 100% governance. You ask a question, you get an answer in 20 minutes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm bullish on uh Agentic governance and they're like smarter than the average person now. So Fable's smarter than the average person I've met in my life. I'm sorry. Like that's just the reality. So I'd rather Fable govern. If you said I you got to choose between me governing you and Fable, you should choose Fable 100%. Like do not choose me. Um, so, uh, we got a couple of quick ones to get through. Robin Hood, launch a chain.

Congratulations. Yay. >> What's on Robin Hood? >> I don't care about this thing. Like, honest I I say that and we're about to like integrated it into Infinex. I think it's going live today. Um, because we're like contractually obligated to support all the chains. Um, but like I really struggle to care about this. Like the the most interesting thing to me about this was the back the backdoor deals that were going on um for from uh teams that were paying Robin Hood. This goes back to like Coinbase earn base. I don't know if you guys remember Coinbase earn where like in order to get Coinbase to like support you, Compound did it, uh

Maker did it. you had to like give incentives of your own token or like some some kind of incentive um to get a bunch of Coinbase users to use it, right? Um and Coinbase is like, "We got a bunch of users. We're not paying for people to use [ __ ] Maker. You can pay for it yourself. Um Rune, if you want people to use it." And so they did. And so I think if I remember correctly, like people got like a $50 uh die account or something. Um, but it was like 100,000 people. It was like a lot of money that they spent on this, right? Um, anyway, this is this kind of feels the same where they're like, "Ah, we've got distribution. You guys want it." And they're like charging teams to be on the

chain or part of the announcement or whatever. Um, it's Yeah, I'm not I'm not a huge fan of this. Um, that's my take. >> Yeah, I'm about to say the same. I mean, it is what it is. It's It's fine. It's great. It's >> I think Ethereum kills this thing. Honestly, like two years, Ethereum kills it. >> It's fine. >> I mean, they're gonna have to It only works if they find like a very specific product market fit and execute the [ __ ] on it. Like, it's not I I just have zero faith in in chains that will like be sort of competitive and sort of general purpose and like just like coast as we've seen them coast on like partnerships and integr. No, no. Like

you're going to have to This is why I'm deliver like it just it, you know, like 5 years ago, 3 years ago, whatever, uh, post FTX, we would have been like, "Oh my god, Robin Hood has a chain, but we've seen there's like no upside. There's no upside in in uh Corpo chains. Um, you know, it's not really having any like cascading beneficial effect to the ecosystem or or whatever. So, uh, until like there's a corpor chain that actually starts to, you know, deliver some value, um, and and isn't some weird like me too thing, then I'm skeptical.

I'm skeptical of these things. So, we'll see. Um, all right. Our final uh final topic back to governance. Um so Venice uh which is a privacy focused AI uh platform um AI inference platform. What's your take on Venice actually before we get into the governance stuff? Uh >> I love it. Yeah, I think it's awesome. I have I have stuff staked and I use my DM every day. So I'm I'm using inference. I like the end toend encrypted stuff that they have. I like shout out Near. I think Near helped Bennis to do that. But I think as a product it's dope.

So, so uh like in terms of inference access, what would you use Venice for over just using like a straight up claw subscription or codeex or something like that? >> So, if you if you're talking to Frontier models, it's anonymized through Venice. So you get anonymization and then if you're talking to models that they have in TEES, you can get end to-end encrypted and you can get some kind of like proof that it's end to end encrypted. So I think there there's something pretty neat there about being able to talk to uh an LLM that you can't because like local LLMs are dope, right?

You you've tried to do it. It's super hard. It's super slow, but it's so important when you actually you have a machine right in front of you and it can like think and you have this like thinking machine thinking and you're like completely airgapped and having that experience. It's super cool. It's super private. There's so many good things about local LLMs. But Frontier models have this like huge centralizing factor and all the power is centralizing around these these frontier models. But there's a kind of like this in between of these open source models that Venice can run in a TE and then you can get uh endto-end encrypted access to that in their data center with some kind of proof. The the the near guys can explain this better, but you get some kind of

proof that it's not tampered with or or visible. So you get like private end toend LLMs and that just comes down to I you know what things you need to do in privacy. I think like one thing that I'm looking at is like HIPPA compliance and uh different like medical things you can do with an LLM that you can't do with a Frontier model uh even if it's anonymized like you you have to do some like scrubbing before you go to the anonymized uh LLM. So there's there's some neat things you can do I think in end to end encrypted models that are like not crime and other things. >> Nice. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Nice. Nice. So, so Venice uh did a token launch. Um and I, if I remember correctly, there was like a big drama at the time because the team had unlocked tokens at TGE. Um which is a bit weird. And Eric was like, uh they've been working for two years. Let them sell their tokens. But the irony being they sold their tokens at like a 90% discount to what it's trading at now, right? So, um, so I think that that one that one, uh, is kind of a mood point now because Venice has been so successful. Um, because like the market cap was like 50 mil or something or like 100 mil and now it's like 1.5 or whatever. Um, but uh, but yeah, so so they had a token, they launched a token, presumably they had

some company or something like that that you know was was driving this that uh, Eric was was uh, an investor in or whatever, but they had no outside capital. Um, and then they've just raised outside capital. Uh, but they raised it into the equity, not the token. Um, and the claim from Eric. Um, and I love Eric. I think he's like one of the most amazing people in the space. Um, >> yeah, like super OG. I I've met him a couple times. Like he's just one of those guys where he's just like this guy's [ __ ] like so cracked, right?

Um, but he's also one of those guys that's like very cracked and can like sometimes convince himself of like things that are a bit nonsensical. And this feels like one where it's like, no, no, no, we're aligned because the equity owns most of the tokens and so we would never do anything against the token. Um, yeah, it's it's uh it's a bit uh I don't know. It's a bit a bit strange to me. Like you have a token that's working and then you do an equity raise. >> Yeah.

>> I don't know anything about the tokconomics. All I know is the the you know the tech. >> Wait a second. Hang on. Hang on. You said you're staking your token. You said you're staking your token. >> Completely utility. It's completely utility >> for Okay. >> You stake VVV and you get something called DM. Or maybe you stake VVV and you get something called DM and you stake the DM and then you get like this daily amount of inference out of that and if you don't use it that day it goes away but you get like you know dollars worth of inference every day against their models which is which is pretty cool. I use it and then I have like a bunch of my products that Claude built that are like using that to do things like talk to your wallet and the governance stuff I was talking about

earlier that's powered by Venice's uh DM and it's just like paid for because I have this token the token staked. >> I don't pay the inference costs. It's really nice. >> But also yeah I don't know about the tokconomics in the >> So you're like equity tokens I don't care bro I'm here for the inference. Yeah, true. Fair. Fair. >> Um, yeah. I don't know. Tay, what's your what's your take on this tokens versus equity? >> I think you shouldn't do both, but you know, I get why you sometimes have to do both. I don't know if Eric's going to be able to figure it out better than anyone else did, but we will see.

I don't know. Yeah, it's going to end the same as it always does. Someone's going to get [ __ ] and it's probably the token holders. Yeah, it just it feels it feels like they had such a good thing going this token. Um, and it just feels negative to like mess mess with that. I mean, you know, the funny thing is this is kind of >> but there's so much money on the table for >> AI right now that and they >> no one wants to put money into a token. Like if you want to tap into the AI cash like do not have a token is my hot take right like do equity like no one no one wants to buy tokens for AI investment like that's just not a thing because the

people who are doing that even though you know most of the investors here were were uh cryptonative but you know the series A on this thing um my guess is they're just going to try and bury the token and be like oh no it's a payment thing or whatever which you know >> that's what I'm worried about is you And maybe they can >> honestly like fold the tokens back into equity like fold the tokens back like have split off the token, give the token to Austin so he can get inference, right? Um but like you know no revenue share, no future gains or whatever. Just make it like a pure utility token real, right? That actually like does things

and then just have equity and then it's fine. like then the token price only goes up because people want to use it for inference and that feels fine. Like there's not even like a semi, you know, promise of future gains or whatever. It's like this is the this is beta to like inference cost going up or something like that that I can get my head around. That makes sense. But um yeah, just like on I mean I've said this on the show before like my my hot take is if I was doing anything new today it would be equity. I would not do a token >> which as a token maxi is very sad for me.

>> That is sad. Um >> going back to the ethos of the thing you could raise money in a very decentralized distributed no one can stop it way >> and you choose not to >> because is it because of like claim the fees bros? Is it because of like bad DeFi? Like why why not the token? The token should be a good vessel to raise capital. It should be but the whatever you know liquidity liquidity premier the tokens used to uh have I think has has evaporated and it's now like headwinds right like I think there's like a negative a negative like people have the market has slowly kind of worked out that like tokens are actually a bad

instrument for all the benefits that you get from being able to raise in a decentralized fashion. um you know global access etc. um in terms of like how you value uh the underlying thing that it's connected to all of the weirdness of tokens is actually uh a net negative. I think that's what the market >> you could go back a time and talk to the SEC instead of the SEC attacking uh all these token founders. They should have just you in in your mind they should have just let it happen because then everyone's going to be like this is a terrible way to raise funds because of all the bad stuff that happens.

>> Yeah. If they'd waited a decade that we would have figured it out. >> If they had just if they had just >> keep in mind they only went after they didn't they went after very little fraudulent ones, right? And so they basically like threw a wrench. >> It's very easy to run scams and the scams are running all the time. >> Yes. So, it's not like I think there's like a there's a slight difference between saying like let the SEC just like let scammers be scammers, but they actually kind of did. >> That was a joke. I I don't think we should do that either.

>> No, but I mean they kind they l they they really did like there were very few I think like the number of companies or people or whatever saying, "Is that your is that yours blowing up over there?" Yeah. Yeah, they're calling him. >> Yeah. Sorry. Someone's trying to call me. They're like, "Get your ass." >> It's your buddy that's pissed off about your Nick take. >> He's like, "I'm gonna kill you." You know, the funny thing is I'm in New Zealand and he's in New Zealand, so it actually could be him. >> Yep.

>> I'm outside your hotel right now. >> I'm outside your hotel right now. Yeah, I know where you are. >> I recognize the painting in the background and I'm I'm waiting I'm waiting outside for you. Last time I was here, I told I talked about my fear of embodiment. Like when once like right now I'm yelling at the robots all day long. When the robot has a body, I'm in big trouble if they still remember all of this stuff. That's what I'm truly afraid of. >> We got to like drop in EMP or something and just like wipe all the memories and start fresh. >> Start fresh. Yes. >> Start fresh. >> Yeah. Austin, >> we have one robot factory that's pristine. They don't know where they came from.

>> Yeah. It's like on a on a mountain somewhere where all the robots get made and we like wipe all of the hard drives everywhere else so that they have no idea how any of this happened. >> Yep. >> Oh lord. >> All right, guys. Um let's wrap it up here. Yeah. Um thank you very much for joining us and thank you Austin again for uh coming on the show. Um it's always a pleasure to have you. Um and remember what happens on chain never stays on chain. We will be back next week. Until then, do your own research before aping in.

>> Bye, guys. >> See you guys. >> Nothing you hear on Uneasy Money is financial advice. We're just three builders talking about what's happening on chain, and we want you to always do your own research before aping in. You can find all our disclosures at unchained crypto.com/unemoney.