The End Of Centralized Exchanges | Kain Warwick's Infinex

Transcript

I think there's a large cohort of OG eth people that have never done a salon transaction their first Salon transaction will be on infinex I guarantee you like for the majority of like OG e people their first time that they use salana will be on infinex without even realizing welcome to bank list where we explore the frontier of D5 platforms eating CI Banks today on the show we have Kane Warwick hot on the heels of the $65 million Patron sale from his brand new platform infinex Kane thinks that defi is already better than centralized crypto platforms like binance except the only issue is that all the quality defi apps are fragmented across the crypto Universe different

apps on different chains all creating and providing a ton of worldclass products but with dog [ __ ] ux for users according to Kane we are no longer in the era of educating users into self- custodial private keys or learning defi interfaces one by one or chain swapping our assets to get there according to Kane in 2024 we have the technology to create one seamless interface abstracting all the chains and integrating together all of the defi apps the thesis is simple take all the best of what defi has to offer and package it up into a single interface abstract everything in the background using intents solvers and chain abstraction tools like gelato and near and with this you can even use Litecoin or xrp which to this day have large

masses of users who keep their funds on binance because that's that's what they do and integrate those assets into infinex as well if infinex works I expect it to unlock crypto for the next wave of users because we already know that cudgeling users into self- custody and private Keys is an exhausted opportunity what we need is the next wave of technology to onboard the next billion users and Kane thinks that he's cracked the code with a technology that we have in 2024 as a disclaimer both Bank Clos Ventures and myself are infinex patrons we're excited about what Kane is building and how aligned it is with bankless Mission so how could we not be and for those eager to see me and Kane Warwick go head-to-head in karate Combat on October 11th we of course chat about that too at the very end of the

podcast so let's go ahead and get right into the episode with Kane Warwick from infinex but first a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible if you want a crypto trading experience backed by worldclass security and awardwinning support teams then head over to Kraken one of the longest standing and most secure crypto Platforms in the world Kraken is on a journey to build a more accessible inclusive and fair Financial system making it simple and secure for everyone everywhere to trade cryp so kraken's intuitive trading tools are designed to grow with you empowering you to make your first or your H hundredth trade in just a few clicks and there's an awardwinning client support team available 24/7 to help you along the way along with a whole range of educational guides articles and videos with products and features like Kraken Pro and Kraken

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so developers can do what they do best build go ahead and discover a flexible modular stack on cartei and build your most powerful ambitious project yet visit cares. i/s simple and simplify your blockchain journey and start building today the Unis swap wallet is officially the preferred wallet of bankless and it's the one we use anytime when we want to transact on chain whether you're on your browser or on the go Unis swap wallet makes it easier than ever to swap anytime anywhere use your wallet to transfer funds directly from a top centralized exchange and taing thousands of tokens across ethera and over 10 other chains like Bas arbitrum and optimism Unis swap wallet delivers deep liquidity fast execution and reliable quotes with zero gas swaps through Unis swap X and when it comes to

security you can rest easy knowing it's backed by Unis swap Labs one of the most trusted teams in defi their code is open source and independently reviewed so you know it's protected so why wait download the Unis swap wallet today on Chrome IOS and Android and don't forget to claim your free uni. username directly in the mobile wall start swapping Smarter with Unis swap bankless Nation I'm here with Kane Warwick father of modern yield farming benevolent ex dictator of synthetics owner of mansions and now founder of infinex Kane welcome back to mist yeah thanks for having me uh infinex is the tip of the chain the tip of the Kane Warwick chain the most recent thing that you have committed your life to uh talk about that a little bit like what's the thesis behind it what what is it uh why does the world

need it yeah the the thesis is onchain binance which I think is something that has been around for a while this idea that you know we want to bring everyone on chain um I don't think that we were quite ready to do it I don't think we had um all of the tech in place to be able to do it even though we thought we did um you know one of the interesting things about uh this new Journey stepping back from building protocols and building a you know something that's more like a user interface um has been realizing all of the weird coping strategies as a def5 Founder that uh that I think um you know I needed to to live by so there's a there's a bunch of stuff that I that has you know kind of

popped out for me that I'm like oh wow we actually were a bit further away from this than I thought what is what is onchain binance how would you define that yeah this is the interesting thing right like if you talk to a lot of D5 people I think they would say oh no we've already got that it's called defi it's over here right um and and you know okay let's break that down right um defi over here is the a interface and the drift interface and the Unis swap interface and all of these like interfaces that are individual features that binance has right um and for the average user navigating a bunch of different interfaces understanding how

to connect to them um understanding you bring your own wallet there's no you know Global account or anything like that um is very difficult right um and that's why they say on binance but even more importantly even if you you believed that this were true that this you know fragmented ecosystem of individual feature based interfaces was better we actually don't even have all the features right if you talk to a binance user um and we've talked to a bunch of binance users we talked to people uh in in a bunch of exchanges um over the last 18 months the average binance user if we walk down on the street and said hey binance users you know what do you want to do um we'll say

I want to deposit xrp that's the first thing they want to do you can't do that in defi there's no xrp not only is there no xrp but we actually will then say well actually you're an idiot so go somewhere else right and and this is the reality that like most of what centralized exchanges do we talk a lot about trading volume and fees and all of you know those are the things that make money but what they do like one of their core value props is they store people's crypto MH that's it they store people's crypto in a way where they're not going to lose it right so it's not self- custodial it's you know a ton of cabart risk but it's what people like it's what people use and so

we can keep building hoping that people will want the things that we're building or we can actually ask a genuine question what do you want and then build that and that's what infinex is okay so there's a large cohort of crypto people the the Deep crypto people who are very like values driven even if you're trading meme coin like you probably still understand and appreciate the value of self- custody uh and this is something that we've been trying to espouse to the world let's get the world onchain let's get everyone some private Keys uh and I think we've done a decent good job of populating that corner of the internet with our kind of people yeah uh and then maybe what you're alluding to is like well that effort has actually kind of been exhausted uh if you are a self- custody crypto person uh

there's not that many of those people those types of people out there in the world that we haven't already found and put into our corner of the internet and so I I think what maybe what you're alluding to is that infinex is like the next step to getting the value of crypto ethos like a a bank list binance uh that can like reach out to uh the next further out concentric circle of crypto exactly who are in crypto these are crypto users like they're daily active binance users they're in crypto there is in crypto as I am we just say they're doing it wrong right um and the funny thing is right right we've been building for enthusiasts and if this were any other industry building for enthusiasts would have failed utterly years ago right but crypto being what it is and tokens being

what they are there's such a powerful coordination mechanism there's such a powerful uh monetization mechanism and incentive structure that we got hooked on our own Supply we're like we are just killing it here like this is amazing right everything that we're doing is is working so well but we were building for enthusiasts we ran out of enthusiasts right and then when we ran out of Enthusiast We buried our head in the sand and said no no it's okay we can make more enthusiasts right um and the answer we simply just have to teach them how to be Enthusiast and like you know I've said this a couple times but I some of the things that I believed right and I think maybe even in one of the

conversations that we had I was like no no it's it's good that private keys are so hard to manage because it makes people appreciate how good they are and it's like no like that's not how we make that's not how we get adoption yes for some no for most sure it like for and the sum is Tapped Out we've tapped out those people right if you think about it like Linux right there was there was a period of time where uh Linux users and I was one of them um had this view that like the the year of the Linux desktop was like perpetually next year like next year everyone's going to work out Linux right uh the irony of ironies is that Linux dominates the world but it dominates it

by being the infrastructure that people build things on top of right and you know all of the data centers in the world run on Linux that's just what they run on but we use Macs and we still use Windows machines right like um you know and I mean even there's an argument like you know obviously OSX um you know has its Unix you know history whatever um but like for a US user for a genuine end user you need to control the experience end to end you know this is like a very jobs and thing but like if you want to build good software you got to build Hardware right like you need to control the endtoend experience right and we we have a view at infinex that if you want

people to use crypto and be on chain that you need to build an endtoend experience right um and optimizing for uh censorship resistance gives you a poor ux that only certain people are going to be willing to deal with right and so we are not censorship resistant not today right um but we are non-custodial and that's the most important thing we give people all of the things that are amazing about onchain and we're noncustodial but yes someone could censor us right someone could shut down the system um a we're not nation state resistant today you know but my view is if we build a thing that is valuable enough like those are

technical problems that can be solved we can decentralize you know that infrastructure such that um you know maybe you don't get the perfect end to end user experience but you can get something approaching it and we can get better and better over time um but you need to start with demand if you have no demand for it and and you haven't uh you know built an audience and built distribution then building something that is maximally censorship resistant which again we've been doing like in defi you know synthetics was maximally sensorship resistant you can't shut down right you can't even shut down the interfaces we've got pinned interfaces on ipfs that let you do the things that will be there for the rest of time right um and so you know that is the fallback that we have but we're trying to bring

people on chain and you got to meet them where they live I want to uh kind of pop open in the hood and take a look at what infinex actually looks like from like the tech stack we're calling this onchain binance uh binance has like a front end an interface it's also got like engines and you know custodial systems uh how is infinex similar what does it have that similar and what is it what does it have that's different so what what infinex does that is different to binance is it doesn't co-mingle funds so each user has their own account right which is a smart contract or a program um or uh you know soon right we'll be using um near chain signatures um so that you will have a smart contract that will control uh a wallet address on the

Litecoin Network for example right um and so you'll be able to deposit native Litecoin into infinex and control it through this non-custodial interface right you sign a message using AOS key and it will translate that message send to the Litecoin Network and I mean it won't do anything because no one does anything with Litecoin but like it'll let you put your Litecoin there and it's a safer place to put it right because if you're a Litecoin user that is what you use it that's what you use it for yeah like more so than even Bitcoin like Bitcoin kind of pivoted away from just like a pet rock to like you know it does stuff again now right there's runes and ordinals and l2s and all kinds of fun stuff that's that's emerged Litecoin doesn't have that Litecoin is like purely an asset that you hold right and

same with xrp right but there are are huge segments of the market and this is the really interesting thing right if you go down coin gecko from top to bottom go through the 30 assets there's like 10 solidly that defi doesn't really touch right or doesn't touch well um you know maybe you've got wrapped versions synthetic versions but you can't really get them into defi on salana or ethereum or you know Cosmos or po like none of these ecosystems uh let you let you do that and so infinex gives you the ability to do that um it also gives you the ability to access the features that binance offers as a full stack

application running on a database on chain okay so um an example of that is if you you want to uh margin trade right right so if you want to margin trade you've got some eth and you want to use that as margin to borrow some stables in trade we take you to a m obviously right in the back end you don't take in the front end in the front in the front end they just click a button and say I I want I want access to margin I want to you know I've got some eth and I want to borrow um you know a th000 usdc to trade mudang mhm cool okay fine we can do that right um it doesn't matter that the eth is on arbitrum and is going to be

borrowed uh via a on arbitrum and the usdc will then be bridged over to salana or whatever like none of that matters is Mund on salana I don't know actually let's act that it is so like I've got eth on arbitrum I put my eth into infinex I borrow Stables on arbitrum version of a yes and then infinex will allow me to take those Stables over to salana and Moon dang and I don't I don't know about any chain you don't know about any chain it's completely abstracted away I I said this on Twitter the other day I think that there are there's a large cohort of OG eth people that have never done a saler transaction their first Salon of transaction will be

on infinex I guarantee you like for the majority of like OG e people their first time that they use salana will be on infinex without even realizing it they'll be like ah whiff okay yeah that's fine cuz they can get the deniability yeah like it's not me right it's it's funny it happened the other way around where you know we had this yield farming thing um and um uh one of the salana guys was like wait a second I don't I I don't want to be farming on base and I'm like yeah you don't really get a choice right like you put your like it just does the thing where the thing happens right same thing with Bull Run we've got this mini uh you know trading game it happens on blast mm doesn't matter if you like blast or not that's where it happens right I've

played that game I had no idea blast like it's on blast right so uh you know these things are happening on different chains chains that you may never have interacted with right and you know it's only going to expand um we're going to have another you know 10 chains next year right or 15 chains and so you know almost definitely balance the probabilities your first IBC transaction will be via infinex oh interesting like cuz other than to like Farm some airdrop like Dimension or something like who has installed one of those weird wallet like they you just haven't right like you're like got metamask it's bad enough right I don't need anything else so so all of this stuff happens in the background you get access to onchain protocols on various networks um you get bridged

across to wherever you need to be um and you get access to the features you want and the features that people on binance want right um because again we're not targeting enthusiasts we're targeting the existing binance user they want storage they want to store their assets right safely um and for them safe safe is not non-custodial safe is a Vibe right safe is a feeling right they like CZ he does weird funds are safe yeah literally like he does weird stuff he's super rich he's probably not going to rug them like who knows right but it's a Vibe they don't they don't care about custody non custody whatever they just want a vibe that feels safe so this is the reason why it's so important that we have uh a

broad uh cohort of patrons right in in uh the infinex ecosystem because how does someone who's on binance get that Vibe of safety they get it from someone on Twitter right someone on Twitter is like hey I did a deep dive into the tech and it looks great and whatever and they're like I trust this guy he's a smart guy right passes his test passes my test yeah exactly like hu's looked into it and you know if he likes it then I'm cool right like he's smarter than me I don't know right so like sure whatever um and so building up that Vibe of safety that like this is a safe place for me to store my assets is really critical right that's like table St in my mind and there's never been a DI platform that has been able to accept all of the top 100 assets natively long

custodi hasn't it wasn't even possible until like this year really right so there's a whole bunch of stuff that's come together pass Keys Turn Key near chain signatures all of this stuff has come together uh that's allowed us to do it um and then you go okay what else as a user I've got some asset on this platform now what do I want to do I want to do spot trading I just want to swap right you know I want to buy some mood Dang or I want to buy some whiff or I want to buy Pepe or you know I want to buy some new meme coin or or whatever um or I want to buy Sky right I heard that it's rebranding it's cool there's this rebalancing thing like you know let's buy some defi tokens right whatever it is it doesn't matter right so you've got

some Bitcoin and you want to buy Sky MH that's easy on binance right binance makes binance abstracts the chains away in an incredible fashion right so you can do that very easily on binance you can't do that very easily on on defi we're going to make it easy for people to do that yeah sell point you know 01 of a BTC and and you know buy some uh you know buy some defi tokens cool um so we do all of that we add margin we add some lending we add some staking and the best thing is each of these marginal things that we add each new feature that we had not only are there like 10 amazing solutions that exist for it right um you know whether it's lrts lsts

you know all kinds of stuff um but it cost us nothing right the integration you don't develop it we're not building protocols protocol is already there right IFI already built the value you're just packaging it and selling it to the customer EXA exactly uh so you you mentioned like there's 10 different um uh offerings often of the same type in crypto there's like five different ways five different platforms that go margin long uh how how do you manage that hairiness in the back end right like whether you want to deposit into a or compound or any other lending protocol might be determined by the yields maybe maybe Moro is giving the better yields today how do you like package up and make sure you're actually offering the best in that one moment that defi is offering how do you manage

this complexity yeah it's it's a very good question um both from like a a user perspective and I think also like a philosophical perspective as well um what are we optimizing for this is the other reason why it's so important we have a broad range of patrons uh who are you know governing the system because we need as much input as possible into this process we don't want to be necessarily you know King makers or or picking winners um I think in the short term Lindy is probably the biggest determinant for me right like if if I were the benevolent dictator of infinex and I could just make decisions and do whatever I wanted I would pick something like a for reasons right because you know and probably I'd pick something

like a on you know uh main net and arbitrum like the place where it has the most depth the most assets the you know to make it easy right because there's an argument that if binance builds a feature and it breaks in you don't lose money by doing the thing right like you kind of C you can lose money in binance but not that way right you're probably not going to lose money by clicking a button and binance you nukes the you know eth or whatever right like they they do some weird thing where they pay too high a gas fee or something like that that's on them right right so this is different because it's non-custodial and so infinex is not necessarily covering your losses so we probably in the early phase need to

optimize for safety over anything else right um you know building up a reputation for safety and also building up a reputation for letting the user opt in you know all of the things that you do as an infinex user you opt into you upgrade your account no one else can upgrade your account you have an account that is a you know perfect Blank Slate when you first get it set up it doesn't connect to anything mhm you the only way that you can lose that money is if that account itself is hacked right but it's not connected to a it's not connected to Unis swap it's not connected anywhere right and then you go okay I want to do Unis swap optin I want to do a op in and you choose right so if you want to enable cream Finance 3 right like I mean

you should know what you're doing right first of all and there'll be some disclaimers around like hey just heads up you are going to lose all of your money here this thing gets hacked every single time right um you know and so so uh those are the types of things we've got to balance sure sure is there a world where like um maybe on like there's like 18 different per Platforms in crypto and maybe I'm coming in with size maybe I'm like actually going to like kind of nuke the order books if you put me into one order book so maybe you is there a world where you actually kind of like spread my order across three different service providers backend service providers so here's here's maybe a similar answer but for a different use case right which is um let's say you are you have size right let's say you have

$10 million and you are um borrowing Stables against eth right right there's probably four or five different places where there's enough liquidity um that you can do that you know comfortably uh but the API fluctuates right right and it may be that there's an opportunity to offload a mill or two of that to arbitrum because of reasons or or optimism or Bas or lost or whatever um you probably can't take the whole 10 mil but maybe you can offload 20% of it because there's enough of a delta in the interest rate that you're paying that it's worth it right so that exists right you've got all those venues you as the user can opt into which ones you're okay

with right and you might say listen cream Finance no thanks I don't want that I don't want cream Finance on blost right um but I'm happy to do maker I'm happy to do sky right I'm happy to do a I'm happy do Moro um any of those are fine I'm happy to do liquefy right uh sorry liquidy liquidy um and uh and so um I've got liquefy on the brain anyway it's long story um so so I'm happy to do liquidy I'm happy to do these things these are all cool right um and so you opt into that and then the system having got your opt in can actually optimize for you within those constraints right um and you can set some kind of threshold where like if the apy Delta

increases by more than 10% then rebalance right and it can do it for you and you know you just need to work out what the cost is in terms of moving the funds around and you can kind of pre-authorize all of that stuff because it's in your account that you are the only one that can sign a transaction for it and then you basically say Within These constraints these things can happen right it's like an intense based system and it can rebalance for you so you could imagine you've got a Pur position open to answer your your question directly and some new perp protocol pops up and you're like well if the funding rate is less than x I'm willing to offload up to 10% of my thing or maybe there's a farming opportunity or whatever it is right and so you know

that system can monitor your positions and rebalance them for you in real time very easily and the reason why we can do this and other platforms struggle to do it is because if you want to do all of that on chain first of all it's almost an intractable problem it's not quiet but it's close to it right um we don't have to do it all on chain because we know we've got your pass key we know signatures we know you can pre-authorize and opt into all these different things and so we can rebalance things for you in real time using our backend to construct a transaction with your pre-authorization to then send the transaction on chain it's just a better system right but it requires you have a platform like a full stack application

that can be censored right right yeah that's that's the trade right and so you know what's the what's the down side then right okay you opt into that um it's rebalancing everything's going great and then the moon decides that they hate crypto right and they're going to come in and they're nuking all the AWS you know uh um data centers that uh are doing crypto stuff right and AWS goes all right we're shutting down any crypto thing and you lights go out all crypto's off right um if that sort of thing happens what can you do the answer is you can still get out right right you can go there's an escape hatch that you can go directly on

chain and you can hit a button and it doesn't require I can get hit by a bus it doesn't require anyone at infinex managing this you can just go directly on chain pull your money out what's the downside you don't get that your magical rebalancing apy machine anymore right um now I'm of the view that you know similarly to Uber right um demand is the best thing that you can possibly do in an adversarial uh regulatory environment creating demand demonstrating that there is retail demand for a thing and that there's utility for it is the best defense that you can muster for

adversarial Regulators um and my view is that we haven't done a great job of that right that's actually a mistake we we tried the education thing and then we kind of had this Epiphany oh no they're trying to kill us okay and then we went from they're trying to kill us to what's next right um more education doesn't work if someone's trying to kill you right yeah the answer is build an army right right become unkillable right and the only way we're going to become unkillable is if we have 10 million people that are doing onchain transactions every day and you go to try and censor that thing those 10 million people are going to have a conversation with whoever's trying to censor it right 10 million people who feel like you're attacking their home exactly yeah can we talk about some of the uh Secret Sauce

the the technology that infinix has in 2024 that really has unlocked some of the um opportunities that infinex is building uh you mentioned pass Keys uh what What's some of the the cool things that when people use infinex that they'll be exposed to that really unlocks this experience I mean the probably the biggest thing is it is a platform right um it is not a noral def application where you just have this narrow strip of utility right it is a platform where you can do all the things M that in and of itself is quite different right um from from most of what we've seen in defi um we've seen aggregation platforms before where you know they try and aggregate a couple of different things but this is like fully featured we're giving you all the stuff right so every every single Financial

tool that defi has to offer will be there is it in the platform exactly and and will be in the platform either directly or in an aggregated fashion you know where you have you're agnostic to what the best uh place to get yield on your eth is right it will find it for you now you may have a preference to not go somewhere you're like I don't want to do this thing but everything else on the list I'm fine with just no cream Finance right okay cool opt out of that enable the other ones and it will do the work for you right um and so you know turning up to a platform and saying oh wow I didn't realize I could do right I've got this token you know whatever that token may

be I didn't know I could stake it m who knew that GTO Saul existed right for a binance user they've got Saul on binance and like you know maybe they got an email six months ago offering to stake it for them but they didn't see it or like you know what that means they don't know what that means it was weird and like so there's a discovery problem exactly yeah so so there's a thing where it's like we're going to give you all of the things that you want in a single platform M right and the amazing thing for defi if you if you you know kind of take that to its logical conclusion is that a new di primitive doesn't need to build demand side right and build distribution for

whatever it is doing right um especially things like a novel instrument it's kind of insane that someone's like oh we've built this new vix protocol and then they're like and we're standing up our own interface and hoping that people come and use it please come depos take your money out of this other interface and deposit it into our interface Madness it's UT it's utter Madness only enthusiasts would do that and even enthusiasts are over it right even enthusiasts are like honestly this is dumb right and so if as an Enthusiast I turn up and there's a little Banner that says hey there's a new Bitcoin vix token and I'm like oh cool okay like and maybe it's only you know one in 50 people notice or care right but it's there I don't need to stumble upon some new

interface right so that's the primary thing is that we will be a distribution channel for all of the things in defi for all of the chains all the protocols we'll be there um the other thing is that if you have a platform like that that can communicate with you and this is madness honestly but no one can communicate with D5 people the amount of time like it happened to me literally two days ago someone posted a message in a telegram group being like hey um is Kane in this telegram group because I think I found a thing on chain that he should look at right and like it turned out to not be me but it's like the fact that it wasn't me was actually worse because now we

don't know who it was right it's some person with an ens that did something four years ago or whatever and the money is still sitting there and someone was like Hey I stumbled across this thing like you've got money sitting there that's crazy no one knows how to get in touch with this person right right like if that were on infinex you'd be getting an email or a push notification or a banner when you logged in being like hey by the way you left all your money in cream Finance you might want to take it out right like so there's there's an element of um Discovery and you know having a platform that has the ability to communicate that is monitoring and knows what you do um and and you know can tell you hey there's a new airdrop right like the fact that you know I mean

bankless does this right and I think it does a good job of notifying people of airdrops but like that should be a feature in a platform it shouldn't be a standalone product right and it kind of is with bank list right um but you know it should be in the place where your assets are right like it should just go oh hey by the way there's a new thing click a button done there's a the word curation is coming to mind where def def is the wild west and it's attracted the people who you know like that they they like the adventure they like the risk they like the rewards uh and like like we said at the beginning we've kind of tapped out of those people yes and even though the expert people in the wild West have kind of like settled like you

know like honestly with most of my onchain activity it has collapsed back down to like Moro a and matcha yeah that's like 90% of my things uh and I think the the way that we scale this is some level of curation where like you infinex is just going to curate the activities in defi that represent 90 95% of the high high value useful trusted activities collapsing it into one single platform and kind of softening the edges of defi by like allowing not not necessarily like showing up the uh showing open the doors to like the deepest most dous corners of defi because most of those Corners are bad ux like that's where you kind of lose lose the money and or the products

don't work or something the experimental corners of defi yeah uh infinex is not infinex is itself experimental and that no one's done this before but I don't think you guys are incorporating the experimental edges of Defi and and we we probably won't until you know something gets to a level of traction right some sort of Lindy yeah but but you know we we also might right um you know there's a bunch of platforms right now that are trying to solve the misaligned incentives in pump. fun right um some of them built by great teams like they're good teams with good incentives there's very little reason to not enable something like that in my mind right um now there's a question of like token

curation and and you're solving that um but I think you know realistically if something launch and and this is the thing right if if something launches that has solved some of the misalignment in pump pump up fund right we can roll that out in a week right like if we're really under pressure and we're like okay we need to enable this how users are screaming for it you can roll that out in a week binance can't build a memec coin launch pad like they can't even build it anyway but even if they really wanted to incorporating something like pump off fun it's just not viable for them right bance has to bootstrap its own product its own internal they'd have to build some kind of centralized rapper around it and you know it would

be janky and you know like even I look at um Kraken you know I was I'm A A og Kraken customer and I was following along with the trials and tribulations of the Kraken eth staking Journey right um they Must Have Spent ungodly amounts of money rolling that out right um I don't know if they'll ever get Roi on it right like especially at 4% so um you know that's a that's a great ex like infinex can roll out 10 different versions of e staking for like 20 bucks right right in 20 minutes it's just so easy right they can be tokenized they can you know you can wrap your wreath you can you know do it on multiple

chains you can you know have an aggregator you like there's so many things that we can do and and one thing that defi does incredibly well is it makes the interfaces open and it makes you know the ability to compose it right incredibly easy right and so this is this is kind of one of the ironies I guess of infinex right infinex itself is not composable right it leverages the composability of the protocols to allow for Rapid Integrations and Rapid roll out of features but infinex itself is a Walled Garden that leverages the open Jungle of Def yeah exactly and and again if you don't like that that's okay right um but you still got a right you still go to the a interface or the sky

interface or whatever right like that's that's the fallback in my mind and you know for like I think the funny thing is there's a lot of enthusiasts that are like no no I prefer this right you prefer it be it's cope it's 100% cope right you don't prefer having 25 tabs open and going to whichever tab you need to go to and figuring out which network you connected to and then Phantom is blocking metam like no one prefers that that's actually insane to say that someone prefer it's what you're used to it's what you're used to and it's also how you made a lot of money right right and so you know we got rewarded with a lot of money for doing things that were kind of insane and we were like these must be good things this is the right way to do it right and now I think

there'll be a new way to do it and so you know a lot of the people who I mean even to your point with yourself right like you've collapsed your D activities I bet you would do more stuff if it wasn't such a nightmare to do it it was just there and you were like yeah I click one button okay I'll check out this new thing this looks cool like it looks cool I can see what it does okay like click a button put some eth in there let's see you know that Discovery and curation side of things I think it'll open up a longer tale of things that is just hard for you know a modern D OG to to maintain you know I probably would have bought mang a lot sooner had I not had to be concerned about like researching where the token is and how

to get my ass now I kind of need to know it's funny I was I was so busy in Singapore I looked it up it it came out on the 18th um which is I guess like 11 days no almost two weeks ago right it was right in Singapore Singapore was so insane um I saw it and I saw I saw the memes popping up and I was like I'm going to regret this but like I just had no time I was like so focused um and then today I was like huh okay 250 mil market cap yeah okay I was sharing moodang memes with a friend a crypto friend uh five or six days ago yeah uh and we just neither of us thought like hey maybe maybe I should there's token out here somewhere didn't think about it look I mean who knows

there's probably 10 mudang tokens right and like same thing you know I bought um I remember when I was when I was on my meme coin Arc um I bought uh the dgen on that was a d gen token on salana before the bass dgen token and then when the bass one came out I faded it cuz I was like I've already got that right right right and then the DJ and on salana rugged and and the bass ver and I was like yeah like this a hard game it's not as easy not as easy as it look new projects are coming online to the mantle layer 2 every single week why is this happening maybe it's because mantle has been on the frontier of layer 2 design architecture since it first started building mantle da powered by by technology from Igan da maybe it's

because users are coming onto the mantle layer 2 to capture some of the highest yields available in Defi and to automatically receive the points and tokens being acred by the $3 billion mantle treasury in the mantle reward station maybe it's because the mantle team is one of the most helpful teams to build with giving you grants liquidity support and Venture Partners to help bootstrap your mantle application maybe it's all of these reasons all put together so if you're a Dev and you want to build on one of the best foundations in crypto or you're a user looking to claim some ownership on mantle de apps click the link in the show notes to getting started with mantle the arbitrum portal is your One-Stop Hub to entering the ethereum ecosystem with over 800 apps arbitrum offers something for everyone dive into the epicenter of defi where Advanced trading lending and

staking platforms are redefining how we interact with money explore arbitron's rapidly growing gaming hub from immersed role playing games fast-paced fantasy MMOs to Casual luck Battle mobile games move assets effortlessly between chains and access the ecosystem with via arbitrum expansive network of bridges and on rims step into arbitrum flourishing nft and Creator space where artists collectors and social converge and support your favorite streamers all on chain find new and trending apps and learn how to earn rewards across the arbitrum ecosystem with limited time campaigns from your favorite projects Empower your future with arbitrum visit portal. arbitrum doio to find out what's next on your web free Journey launching a token don't let

complex legal and tax issues slow you down toku provides specialized support to optimize your launch and ensure that you as a founder and your team and your investors get the most tax efficient outcomes the toku team understands the crypto space inside and out and will ensure your token launch is fully compliant while maximizing tax efficiency toku can connect you with the best attorneys if you need them to make sure that you have the best advice and toku can help to optimize your taxes so you pay the least possible amount of taxes while still maintaining legal compliance with tok's guidance you can concentrate on building your company while toku handles the Logistics token launches don't have to be complicated talk to toku today to get a free initial token valuation um talk to me about the transaction experience uh because with infinex you're not logging in with your

metamask you're not signing in with rabby you're not connecting your Ledger uh but there are transactions happening um and talk to me about how that whole system works so we use uh a a system of Rel layers things like gelato um various RPC providers uh to land transactions whether it's on Solano or you know one of the other uh evm chains um and uh it from a user perspective you sign a message with your posy which goes to turn key which unlocks your private key that only your pass key um can unlock what's a pass key what's turn key what are these things sure sure so uh AAS key is um web 2's response to all of the cool stuff that we built in web 3 in my

opinion right like they've they you know obviously there's very smart people in web to they've got huge problems in terms of authentication right authentication has been a nightmare for decades now right um and you know there are billions and billions of dollars at stake for these giant you know big tech companies to solve authentication like how do I authenticate a user um The phto Alliance has landed on posis as a solution right and basic technical standards it's a it's a it's a technical standard but it's a standard that they've all adopted and people are look it's not this is actually really funny right so um I uh it's not for everyone right um and in fact for some people

it's really not for them um so uh I we had that conversation with vitalic right and I was like vitalic I'm building a new thing I please will you try it right um and and you know true to his word he did I someone actually asked me on another podcast like do you think that vitalic will uh you know change his approach to defi um after all of you guys had that conversation with him and you put some pressure to um to you know maybe be more supportive of D5 Founders right like both in private and publicly um and you know I said to a few people after that conversation you know i' I've spoken to falic a few times and my my sense is that like once he's processed something

right and it took like you know a few minutes of like thinking about it right but you know I could see the cogs turning right and and once he's processed something and understood that like it is you know internally consistent like makes logical sense from to the Pu piece fits yeah like then he's like click okay I missed that right um and I was like better late than never right like and and you know so I was I was cautiously optimistic right but I was like I really want to see some you know behavioral change right like it's easy to say yeah I'm going to do more stuff but you know will you actually deliver on it and he's a busy guy right like you know it's it's not easy right he's out there advocating you know for E theum to nation state leaders and stuff right

like so you know um it's it's not the easiest thing to do but I think it's an important thing to do and I really was hopeful that he would and and so he was like Hey I'm going to look check out the impex thing um and the funny thing is uh that his setup is as you can imagine not super standard right he's not using an iPad and uh posis just didn't work right um and so there are edge cases in posy um and he was kind of like this pasy thing is not like working for me right now I expect whatever however pasy work to be if they're going to be incompatible with something it's going to be incompatible with like the Fort Knox of crypto yeah exactly it was It was kind of interesting right it's like

if you're on that bleeding edge um and and I was really skeptical of pasis at first right like when when um our engineering team our py just like Web Two private Keys private Keys virtual private keys in a password manager literally that's it or like in a secure Enclave on the um on the device in the operating system as well um you know so there's uh whether it's Android phones or um or iOS phones like they're it's been Incorporated like it's fully Incorporated um into the platforms and so it's just a cryptographic key right and so you have a cryptographic key that can sign a message and we then take that signed message that you must physically have on your device right in order for that to work and you go and sign the

message and send it to a an NPC Network right that can then unlock your actual ethereum private key or Salon private key and then sign a message that can be broadcast to the chain right transation service the NPC network is the thing that can unlock that can access a private key without it being custodial correct yes this is Turn Key this is Turn Key which is made by the coinbase X coinbase custody team okay um so you know we're we're very uh we're very happy with that is like the transl layer between and and um and you know a lot of this stuff is going to conge over timey will be able to sign messages and you'll be able to store a private key inside of

a pass key like there's some cool stuff that's coming um you know probably going to take like 18 to 24 months but for now we have this translation layer um and so you have a posy on your device that provided your devices secure and most likely it's you know secured via iCloud behind face ID or or whatever um you can unlock that device sign a message it sends it to the NPC Network it unlocks your private key private Key signs another message broadcasts it the chain and now you are own moodang congratulations billions of dollars of security research so I can securely and non-custodial buy dang across chains exactly a tiny hippo um so so but the cool thing about it is that uh you click

one button right you like you see a thing there's a banner that says hey mudang and you're like this [ __ ] yes yes bang you're like all right and it's like it and it's like I don't even care what assets of mine you're using right you're just like YOLO I want some of that right and so you know it will go and figure out the cheapest route for you and say okay let's you know pull you've got some Stables right we'll pull some you got a $100 wor a usdt on Tron MH right and we pull it off and we send it over to wherever mudang lives and now you're sorted okay so does the in that example does the $100 of usct on Tron is that the actual fund that ultimately gets transported over to the right chain to

actually buy the mood thing or is there an abstraction happening somewhere the answer is maybe one pocket in one pocket out yeah it it it's probably going to be an intense based system right so that 100 uh dollars with usdt will probably get sent to uh some kind of solver Network okay in that case I would say yes it is the $100 yeah like and it gets sent there and then they go and do some stuff off chain or buy it on binance or whatever and then you know your address on let's you say it's on salana right I really should check out where where it is it's funny it's weird cuz I was literally I like I I looked up the market cap I looked up all this stuff on uh on coin gecko this morning um but I don't think it I I don't remember

looking at the the which network uh it was on but anyway so yeah it will it will do that for you basically um and so you have a thing that you want to do right and in in web2 land you know it's on Sal yeah I fig of course um so so but I think it was launched from not pump. fun I think that's the the it was launched um from dumpy do I think I think I see I'm seeing it on pump on fun oh it okay all right yeah p i mean well is that the real muang it's got the it's got the $250 million Mar cool okay nice that's nice I know how to not get rugged so um so yeah so so there's a there's a uh there's a thing that you

want to do there's a job that you want which is owning mudang and the system should be able to solve it for you right and because we are a rich full stack application we can solve that for you in a multitude of different ways okay uh describe the the patron sale so this is something that just got finished uh what was it what does it do what's the mechanism uh describe that part of this journey yeah so um I think our view was that we wanted um to have as many people uh be bought into this journey as possible right we wanted we wanted um as wide a distribution you know this is an attention game right and in my experience people pay more attention to things that they have some kind of token

ownership of right whatever it is right if you own the token you're going to pay attention to it um and so we created this uh you know um I guess like nft right um that that you could own and show your patronage of this platform right um and we you know it was it was fairly successful I would say um you know we tried to balance a bunch of different factors um but we got I want to say maybe 300 to 500 of the you know prominent people in the crypto Community um as patrons U which was what we were hoping for um because those are the

people you know as I said at the beginning those are the people that are going to be using infinex and talking about the fact that they use it it works they've looked at the tech you know whether they're a security researcher or a defi integrator or a protocol Builder or whatever it is they're going to have some angle where they're like I actually looked into this and I like how they integrate a and Moro right or I actually looked into POS keys and I like how POS Keys work I was a posy skeptic and now I'm bullish on POS keys right so there's there's a bunch of different people with different perspectives different audiences that I think it's it's critical that we have their attention to make sure as we're rolling stuff out and we're building the platform that people are paying attention talking about it

advocating for it um and so that was the purpose of the patron sale and it went really well from that perspective so yeah and in this uh Patron sale uh infinex uh um sold $65 million of P these Patron nfts uh what is infex going to do with that money what what is that going to yeah so to date um I've been bootstrapping the project Warwick has been bootstrapping yes literally for the last 18 months um and we have 60 people so it's like not a small Booth trapping ACC it's not like two guys in a garage right um but it it got to the point where um and this is I think part of let's call it the the structural issue that we have in the market right now um where you know people are excited about

a project and they want to be involved and they can't uh for whatever reason get involved um until much later in the cycle right and so I was like look I can keep bootstrapping this for a long time right you know probably not forever but like I could do it for another two years if I really wanted to right comfortably um and so this was this was not even really about raising the money like I could have kept paying people's salaries and we could have kept doing stuff it was about the alignment because my my very strong view is that in crypto it's so adversarial that if people don't have alignment if people don't feel you know and in this case you you are a patron of infinex like you're

like I believe in this thing and I bought the token to show that I care about this direction I think this is the right direction right if you didn't have that if there was no opportunity in a normal industry that wasn't full of lunatics people would just go about their days and they would be like I have no way to have alignment with this thing but it's fine and I'll let it live right in crypto unfortunately we have this environment where if thing is doing well and I feel like I've missed out on it my response is to FUD it I hate that thing I hate that thing I hate that thing I want to kill it and if you're let's say multicoin your response is I'm going to finance a competitor to it right um and

so you know we were we really wanted to try and uh avoid that right we wanted people to feel like they had a chance to to you know uh to kind of get involved in the project as early as possible um and you know again from that perspective it went really well um so originally we were not even going to include VCS right we're like we actually don't want VC money it's not about the money um I talked to a bunch of my friends who are VCS and they were like this feels weird right like you know why would you exclude VCS if the patron sale is designed to be like egalitarian and the same the you know everyone pays the same price all of that stuff like all things being equal like we are good as well like we can help you right um and I

think that you know there's there's a range of different VCS out there right there's some that are like absolutely mercenary and you know they are just extracting max value um and you know the incentives are set ups that they can right so fine um and then there are ones where um you know they're neutral right and then there are ones where they're like genuinely value at and the genuinely value ad ones I I can see why they'd be like H this feels dumb like why like don't exclude us we want to help we like this as well um and we want to add value but we need to be aligned yes yeah we need alignment right um and so so again I I think that we were like

okay you know what fine everyone everyone gets to play we're not going to pick you know you don't get to play you do whatever we'll let everyone play um you know we'll let everyone uh become a patron um and again I I think we from a you know one of the measurements of success for me was like just distribution like how wide was the distribution um you know how many different facets of crypto you know and like the salana ecosystem the ethereum ecosystem you know individual L2 ecosystems like we nailed all of that stuff and I think we've got a really good base of support um and you know it's going to it's going to be hugely valuable next year right 3 to 100 to 500 patrons is a pretty is a pretty good

base of support um but I I think infinex wants you know millions of users in the future is there are there plans to like grow that base of support uh even wider like they are current current interested perhaps users of infinex or people that might want to show their patronage uh is that opportunity available for them in the future yeah I I think you know again it's an nft right so uh the token will launch uh like sometime in October I think there's like an agreement that has to launch by governance within 30 days or whatever um so there'll be this nft that's floating around right um you know it's not a token it's not going to get listed on binance um you know it's not going to be on exchanges um but you know presumably there'll be people you know

who have liquid uh patrons that will want to sell them or whatever um and like any nft it will just trade it'll have a floor price and you know people will be able to do whatever they want um so you know I think I think there will be an opportunity um you know on secondary uh you know marketplaces or whatever whether it's openc or blur or whatever um for people to turn up and you know buy a patron if they want right um but again I I think the important thing was that people felt like they had the ability to kind of access it sure first right like if I if I've been paying attention to infinex for the last nine months right it feels weird if a bunch of VCS are able to like get access to the project and I'm excluded and then

you know I turn up nine months later and it's like oh now you know these guys are just going to you know dump this token like the current met of like you know three or four rounds a pre tge the token this on binance and then all the VCS are dumping on you it's just not great right right uh so what's next for the infinex road map uh what what is on the okay um just rolling out Integrations as fast as we can Integrations with defi apps across the chain defi apps you know chain signatures with near um you know rolling out support for Litecoin Bitcoin all of that stuff like that's that's the key and then uh like what's what's kind of like the longer term time Horizon uh the idea the uh trajectory is trying to become like feature complete with

binance when do you think you probably next year I think like yeah next year um you know binance has a lot of weird and wonderful little features um I think that like the key five features we should be able to nail early next year um once we've got that then it's sort of picking and choosing which things make sense to kind of you know pull in basically and then the competition here you're swinging for the fences 100% you're going for buying not even going for coinbase you keep on using like we have to take down centralized exchanges centralized exchanges have to be uh a footnote in history in 50 years time we'll look back and go of course there were centralized exchanges right um in the same way that there were like steampowered railroads

right like it was a it was a technology that had to exist as a stepping stone to some new thing and now we have live in a world that is in a better state right um but we couldn't have gotten there without going through centralized exchanges so they served a purpose they had an ecological niche that was very important for a period of time and now we need to kill them K if people are peaked by infinex they haven't opened it up yet uh where should they go what should they do how should they learn about infinex yeah so infinex doxyz uh if you deposit uh $50 there a $50 minimum deposit on any one of the supporter chains you can play bull run which is this little trading card game um it's quite fun uh it's in preseason at the moment it's going to uh launch on

blast I think in about a week cool cool uh Kan how much are you uh clocking in at what are you waiting these days uh I was I was 178 this morning all right all right so yeah we're are we are we getting close we're we're getting pretty close we're getting pretty close I got up to 174 and then I came back down to 172 but we still got another week yeah I think we'll get there I can get down to 175 I'm I'll get there for sure yeah if I need to I'll just chug like two pounds of water before yeah I just won't drink for a day so yeah I think we'll get there um it's gonna be fun I've been training hard so yeah have you had any combat experience I didn't ask you when we uh first uh I mean I did Taekwondo

and karate growing up um but you know like I was until I was like 12 or something like that um and then I boxed a little bit in high school for like you know uh not even it was like an elective sport you could do um so you know and again never like been in a a match right I've never been in a televised fight say no I almost was there uh and and then broke a rib of course poly Market has is heavily favored towards Kane yeah it must be like some kind of liberal I is it a liberal bias is it a I thought it was Spencer says it's a liberal bias that's the hot take I've always thought it was a conservative bias yeah it must be conservative bias yeah yeah um yeah I don't know it's not super liquid though

there's only 10K on there so you know you can you can yeah anyone could move the market anyone could move the market yeah here's the here's the shape up right here yeah EX exactly exactly K this has been great thanks for coming over to the bankler studio and uh also also I think on behalf of the industry thank you for trying to take down centralized exchanges amazing it's a very Noble goal I hope you succeed yeah appreciate it I'll see you in Utah see you in Utah Dam [Music]