EIPIP Meeting 25

Transcript

well come to eipip meeting 25 i'm puja ranji i'm gonna share the agenda in the chat so the first item on agenda is discuss the content to populate the f1o spec repo with useful information on the f1 or chain and the possibility of creating a bounty so we discussed this in the earlier meeting and as i mentioned then that the cat hurdles were in touch of epdm or people and we were trying to support

them with the network upgrade stations uh yesterday and uh he left some comments he wanted to join but unfortunately he had a conflict and he could not be here today but he shared some thoughts that are like not duplicating the effort kind of thing so there are something which is always already available on their website and something that we are planning to have on at one dot oh spec repo so if we can just uh sort out what things are missing what we would want to have it here then

they would be happy to you know uh point at point uh back to at one or back repo for whatever the first part of what group you're talking about with the website is that is it the each one the ethereum.org team okay yeah i think that so this is the stuff that um sam talked

about right or is this a little bit different a detailed comment okay let me just see it real quick i've already read part of it but i i didn't read the second part entirely so there are three sections basically we are talking about here one section is like ethereum wiki which is not very well maintained so they are owning that they said that they would be taking json rpc from there and try to update that information and have it on ethereum.org website that is one option and if we want that to be on ethereum one dot

or spec repo they are willing to help so it's on us how do we want to proceed like i believe in earlier meeting we discussed that we would want to have some developers related doc on ethereum one dot or spec repo so that client development team or any new person who would like to understand how what are the specs for clients they could find it here so we want to have this as a canonical resource they are willing i think uh for the json rpc spec specifically um we need to have a conversation with thomas from nethermind because i think and maybe micah saw this or like client

saw this in the ethernet just discord maybe even someone else like james in the chat um i think they're doing a call on this every other week or something yeah wait just got out of that call oh cool okay do you think they would have an opinion on this yes that's what they're planning on the goal of that group is tentatively this is the first meeting the goal of the group so it sounds like they want to clearly specify the json rpc standard across the clients and get them into sync basically and so that is a project that they are actively working towards um this is a brand new group so it's always an unknown you know how effective a good new group is going to

be but that is at least their plan yeah let's just ask them where they want it i'm gonna guess they're gonna do github um because then they can do pull request more easily and the one point of specs repo just seems like a better place in my opinion but um yeah let me see adding a section and then linking to the one oh oh i see so the the i think sam is wanting to have like a section on it um like in the ethereum.org site that but that's not the canonical source

necessarily it links to github is that kind of or what he's getting at uh it's other way round uh if we want to have canonical source as f1 dot or spec repo we will have it but they will point [Music] i missed most of that am i the only one that missed she broke up yeah you broke up a little bit puja if you could repeat the last part okay uh is it better now i hope

interesting okay you mean that they'll point the website ethe.org site to the specs repo uh opposite the opposite i think i couldn't understand that puja i think your internet might be going slowly or something i'm confused by the but not pronouns but the order of the nouns yeah i think what's happening is ethereum.org wants to host the spec and then they want our eth 1.0 specs oh go ahead puja i think we might have lost pooja

temporarily i'm still coming oh no it's in chat now okay oh perfect okay the ether1.0 specs or if yes specs or the ethereum dot org 1.0 page oh i like that idea yeah all right yeah that'd be great there's a couple

things that have floated around that are like this like um the jason rpc spec um like e365 i think we're on or e67 like the networks specification the yellow paper some testing framework stuff which came up over the week any kind of like neutral inter-client communication standard would be nice to fit under there and we can get the right people to have permissions because it will be less political for them to be they don't have to be eip editors to be able to work on the network spec or whatever because those

people are usually kind of different okay i think that for the next piece um yeah we would have to list what we want on the east one point of spec yeah page that makes sense um the first step is to talk to thomas about where they we think they want it and if they think this is a good idea and then we'll give our opinion too and get back to sam i think is the best way to move forward with this piece of the agenda for the json rpc spec well that's good that they're willing to

help um yeah and uh pooja since your audio's cutting in and out i can take over the next part if you want yes please sure okay so the next one is network upgrade information from the comment um i think because we're yeah we're doing all of these okay um so uh sam spoke with puja about this it'd be great to collaborate to improve the ethereum.org history page with network upgrade information because there is piece is missing including um a section that says where to look for the latest stuff on that

so and where to follow for updates so like i can see the ethereum.org history page having like uh what's it called having like a list of network upgrades and then also where the blog posts were like combined with the blog post at ethereum.org and like a chart and like the block number and then a link to the eth 1.0 specs repo where we have retrospectives and stuff on it that sounds like a great hybrid like what information goes where okay and then in there you said you

included the list of emps included in each hardcore is that correct yeah that would be that'd be another good thing to put in there it'd be like a little chart or something that's the number one thing that i think is missing and that that that that part should be in the specs repo i'd say and then the website can have most of the rest of it yeah the website can have a list of the eips once it's final but uh the one point of specs would be the notional source and then the ethereum.org would both point to it but have a list of the summary that's like a trend i think we'll be seeing as long as sam's okay with it um and then also spoke

to puja about eip information so summaries list of links and discussion resources um so the page right now just goes over what an eip is how to participate in a history of eips um oh has the list of vip editors and it's incredibly outdated um okay so the goal here would not to be replace that but merely supplement the material with resources from the community as an example the content of ech curates on 1559

provides a large amount of additional context versus the eip itself okay so bringing resources like that together might make sense i'd have to think about this more there has been a little bit of a a gap of like what to do with the articles that tim has written basically and micah as well like this like the some of the more like why we're doing something and less of the spec kind of idea so some of that yeah there's fit well there's definitely a a missing piece exactly as james just said where you've got the spec which is a technical

specification it's kind of motivation section but that's meant to be you know just like a brief little thing just to get people in the mood sort of thing like just to write them up a little bit it's not meant to be like an argumentative essay it's not meant to be like a an opinion piece it's the motivation section is just like hey here's some things that this would be useful for like here's a short list of uses or here's a few benefits we get when playing this um meanwhile of course along with the ip there's also the opinion pieces there's the user stories there's the essays there's the analyses that are being done eip is a great 1.5 is a great example of this because we have a ton of this stuff and there's currently no place to put that uh right now tim just

has a heck of the article or page that he's creating let's just say did we lose micah yes yeah we lost micah okay but i think the summary of what micah was saying unless uh mike are you back oh my back you just got me you're back you're back now okay um where did they cut off there you were talking about what was missing uh or the the fact that

there were definitely some um things that were missing and there were articles that were written that provided supplemental information that could need to go somewhere yeah that's basically it we've got eip159 great example of this we've got tons of supplemental information and nowhere to put it and so we can link people to it of course when we have a channel and we have people coming in and talking to it but there's no like place that people can know to go to read more about any supplemental information about an eip because we want to keep that out of the iv itself because the ap is a technical document but we don't have somewhere else to send the person to say hey if you ever want to know more like opinion stuff on an eip go here ah

okay i'm sorry so that is the thing that we are proposing here um i'm gonna share the link in the chat so uh this is the place i mean like on the ethereum category cat header website we are trying to curate the list of resources for any uh eip under discussion for example right now we have three four eips one five five nine uh two nine three eight evm three eighty four and all the stuff so whatever resources like other than the eip the uh at magician forum um like blogs published by you and others we just kind of curate it and keep it there and the idea here

is that that should be i mean if we can uh make it publicly available with the help of ethereum.org people so yeah they are thinking in this direction and looking for some thoughts like if this is something good that we should be doing moving the resources from cat herders website to ethereum.org makes sense to me because that consolidates information from one less source because no one really goes to our website or if they do they just want to know about the cat herders and if we start trying to make it a an information hub that's gonna be like the seventh information hub um so although we should have something on

our site about like stuff like hard forks and where to find information um it should funnel to like the eip's website or ethereum.org or the ethe 1.0 specs repo in my opinion so it's like an index more than a listing right and the another benefit that we thought of it like like in cat herders it is with us only if we update that is getting updated but if it is there on the ethereum.com even if some educational resource is missing people can simply create a pull request and add it over there yeah that sounds good to me yeah that works for me i didn't know

about this page so i think this page basically is what i was looking for yeah i mean that that's the thing we wanted to share here is like we are already doing this curation of resources but it's not publicly available so if ethereum dot org either pointed towards us or maybe have a sec move this section entirely on that page would be readily available for people yeah i'm i'm in favor of moving entirely to that page and having our site point to it but i want to hear other people's opinions too obviously what is our in that context uh cat herders cat herders page okay okay uh we will bring it in cater this

meeting as well and then see but from this meeting i believe that people are having positive uh being positive towards moving the entire thing to the ethereum data yeah that's all that's all three points that we discussed yesterday and we wanted to mention it here i i'll be honest there i'm having so many meetings this week i thought this was the cat herder meeting until like a minute ago [Laughter] uh anyways uh i think we're done with that topic before we move on i just wanted to have some clarity on the next step like who what when kind of thing uh as per my understanding james are listing the resources that we would want to have on

at one dot os spec repo and then if people think that we should have a meeting with ethereum our team to and with nethermine for json rpc thing uh we can arrange for that or how do we want to proceed about it like in the next meeting we'll discuss this or we'll have a separate meeting for this particular topic um my opinion is for the json rpc let's try to keep that asynchronous and text base in the all core devs channel or with a private conversation with thomas actually there's about to be a discord channel created for um this rpc spec it's going to be in the eth1 section of the ethernet discord likely and i'll be

creating that in the next hour so um let's that'll be one of the first discussion topics in there and if we need a call we can have one but let's try to just talk it out in there first and then um what do people think of that i like it um network upgrade information section that's going to be a james thing mostly um so just coordinate with james and then for eip information that'll be at the cat herders meeting and as far as like me writing up a list about what shouldn't shouldn't be there if i i like this sort of organic the

stuff that should be there seems to be finding its way and um not having to be not having to dictate it i think we'll end up making better participation from those involved we want to bring stuff to the repository i agree after the initial pulling of the data i i think we need to be dictatorly or whatever on the initial content that's on there and then afterwards have it be organic because otherwise people won't know a direction or examples yeah yeah yeah yeah that makes sense we can do that and there was another sub part of this item was like a possibility of creating bounty

i'm not sure if this is something that we will consider on later part when we get more clarity on how much effort has to be put on the advanced pack repo am i correct to think like that think so yeah that's kind of revolving i guess if the i think it depends on what gets left out from from these groups that are working on stuff okay okay sounds good to me so uh moving on to the next

item the next item is contracting out to someone to move the bot to github action so it's it's a link if you click the link it's coming up from the discord conversation a few meetings ago uh we discussed about uh looking into contracting out to someone to move the bot to github uh but i'm not sure if some something happened or like we had some decision on that so on the request of micro uh comment uh i have added it to the agenda so yeah my guys would like to add things or change sure just for anybody who's not aware we have a auto merge bot

um it goes up and down has bugs needs fixes like any other piece of code nick was the original author of it and he uh it's very busy other things and doesn't work on the ap group really anymore and so it would be nice if we had a new owner um and basically nick said you know this should really be moved to get up actions i agree can have actions are the perfect place for it github actions did not exist when you wrote it back in the day so it's a new tool that we have that just makes this a lot easier for group maintenance because anyone who can see the repo can see the action and tune it and play with it and it's obvious to anyone who uses github so generally a good thing to do as far as contracting is one of those tasks

that is really easy to outsource because it doesn't require really any null much knowledge of like ethereum you just say hey we've got this tool here turned in python it's very short we need someone who can convert it into a github action so that's why i thought that if there's something to outsource this would be a good thing to do so i think this is a good idea i think that there's a bigger issue around funding that'll be a completely different topic and today's meeting if we have time or a different one um once i have more updates on that but i think this is a important enough change that we should ask the cat

herders for funding for it now that their treasury has gotten bigger from the price increase um especially if we're going to be paying out an eth or something like that but we'll have to talk to the rest of the cat herders about that so that should be on the agenda for their meeting and then if that is approved for funding from the cat herders we could do get coin or i would i'd prefer get coin but we don't have to use get coin for it today i learned to get her step money cool yeah but i believe uh getting an estimate of what amount of funding or the effort

that we are looking for here would be you know help us yeah that would be helpful for a cat herders decision micah do you have um any ideas or anybody else in the call estimating software is the hardest job in the world it's so relative to you know building an ethereum client this is a trivial task um relative i mean this is one of those things like it depends on the skill level you hire and whether the person already has at least some knowledge of how this works like if you were to hire like like client or me it would be an easier job they've hired someone stranger but i think my client and me both are going to be more

expensive and have a little time available if anyone wants to interrupt me please do if there was like an if you sat down and like spent a number of days on this you have like a sense of rough how many days that would be so for me i've used github actions all of one time and i used an office basically an off-the-shelf action and it took me you know a few hours to figure out how to use github actions how to make the off-the-shelf action work which like pick from a marketplace fill in my my things then a couple hours to fix it because it didn't work on the first try of course um this would be a more complex github action in that it's got custom code but i think github actions can run basically any language so you can run

python you can run javascript whatever and so whoever you hire would presumably work in a language they're familiar with and so if they already know github actions and they already know their language i want to say days to mvp and then another week or two for testing but this is really off the cuff and do not only do that at all yeah i would say if someone really knows python and github actions and they decide to take this i think a week for all of it sounds more accurate if you really know your stuff use use hudson's prediction come on i will help you help be held accountable

it would be it would be nice if there is some expectation of maintenance for maybe at least a couple weeks so when someone finds something a week later we have someone to talk to but that wouldn't be like a lot of time it would just be like hey yeah a little bit of a little bit of on-call after the fact like a number of hours of on-call support or whatever yeah the person like i ideally the longer term the better i think because it's like like for example we just ran into a bug with like the most recent failure of um the bot was we added the review status a while ago and for the first time someone tried to submit a pr against their own review review their

own eip that was in review and that's like a month or two later and the bot just broke like you just choked on that entirely and so um ideally we'd have someone that you know we can call up and we better on a retainer or whatever that means where you say hey there's a bug you're looking for some more work uh that being said once in github actions i think it'll be easier for us to swap out people to work on it so if they're not available we can find someone else the average developer salary according to the first post page in google for a python developer is 110 000 per year therefore if we were to take math and do math then that's hard

um we would do a hundred ten thousand dollars per year divided by twelve divided by uh uh sporty or 53 an hour 53 57 i think i did that i did salary divided by 12 divided by four divided by 40. oh that's because you're not four weeks a month yeah if you do divide by 2080 that gives you hourly rate from annual oh cool so it's about 53 okay 53 an hour so it's 53 an hour and let's say we do we can be a little liberal with this and

say two weeks of work so or we can get the hourly rate first that's like a good starting thing so 57 an hour and then um we could say two weeks of work to implement and write documentation for it and then one week of service with the idea that we can also hire them again for more larger changes it sounds like as good of an estimate of their software project isn't he so we're we're at for two weeks that's four thousand five hundred eighty three dollars so two weeks is four five eight three and then so that would mean one week is uh

wait oh i did divide it by one that's not a thing two two two nine one so all together that would be six that let's say seven thousand dollars to round up but it's six thousand eight hundred seventy four something between six to ten k would be an ideal one for you know if you want to go ahead with uh this thing but uh i mean i don't know it's it would be my personal preference like people who are already involved here should go ahead with that but what do people think should we with some kind of bitcoin bounty or try to reach out people who are already engaged here i

like the idea of setting a precedent for a git coin bounty because that could attract more people to both eip stuff cat herders ethereum in general i like i always like the idea of bringing brand new people in especially if we're charging this much for someone that's more python than aetherium you're likely to get something pretty good because i i doubt it will be like full-time every day that they have to do all of this yeah we would give them like a month to do it or something weird like yeah we'd give them like there was like a that would be that would be pretty reasonable then yeah and um uh this also so me trying to fund eip things for the future from different

organizations if we can set a precedent of we might make another gnosis say for community fund for eip editors uh and for related eip related tasks we can say we've already done this once and it worked yeah that sounds good okay then i will bring it up in the catalyst meeting and we'll see how much progress we make over there and then bring back the decision to the next eipat meeting on whatever updates we have i'm going to put the salary estimates as a comment and the today's meeting sure i like that okay moving on the next item on the

agenda is a single source of truth for eip i guess uh brent is working on that yeah yeah i've um haven't had a lot of time to work on this yet and i think i've been trying to educate myself around what all the sources of information are and i think i'm getting out of hand and getting lost but so i think what i'm the first task i'm going to focus on doing is just there's two sources of truth evidently there's the eip.etherium.org and there's also ethereum.org eip and the latter is only referenced by a few people on the internet where the former seems to be by far who everyone uh points to and so i'm just going to focus on getting the etherium.org

eips uh get that to redirect to the eip.etherium.org and that just at least do that first and just focus on that task so does anyone else have any other thoughts on that i think that is the current situation like with ethereum dot or slash eips that is just an overview page and it actually points towards the eips dot ethereum dot com okay okay i'll look into that some more so yeah i gotta find some more time to work on some of this stuff so still working on it okay okay uh so moving on

uh the uh next item is eip status change uh update like um the categories have been working with eip editors sorry eap authors uh for the proposals which are in a draft status or maybe not in the correct status even if it is in like in review it is even if it is in like last call it is more than a month or so so we are trying to reach out to those authors and asking them to change their status so we made some progress i think uh at least three of the eips we closed last week i mean closed

by close i mean that it wasn't draft status now they are in review and uh for berlin eip uh i i think there are three eips which are still in draft and that they that they need to move into review status if there is no change done by the author this week uh we will be creating a pull request to change it to review the eips are yeah ip2718 eip2929 and eip2315 all these three are in draft so we would like to have that in review other than that with the help of p penny series we interacted with quite a few authors

and we suggested them to make a request to move on their eip from draft to review but there are quite a few which which hasn't created any pull request yet if they are not done by the end of next week cat headers will be reaching out to them and try to create a pull request to change the yeah that's the update here hello i'm excited for the cleanup

oh thank you i thought i'm i lost my internet a lot i think i heard you at least okay yeah thank you micah i have seen that you have already closed this thing so yes i'm happy to contribute here i'm i'm also looking forward like many eips are still draft status when i look at it i still get confused why they are there even if they are not active for over two years so yes okay moving on to the last item that is a review action item from the previous meeting there are one this one decision and two action items that removed linked eips on

eip1 that are dead uh i have already created a pull request to remove this um eips which are not uh like uh active right now they were just from the pull request they never made it to the eips dot ethereum dot com and the pull request number is three two one eight so uh micah like client uh hudson uh all editors if they would want to give it a look and yes we can close that if that is if there's nothing wrong with it and then next two action items where james is collecting ideas for a single

source of truth which he will report on the next meeting and james would be working on hard fork information into at one dot uh respect repo so i think james uh yeah james would be working on this and um where you have uh the berlin specification is on the website they're uh the previous hard forks are not there yet and i think we have a pretty good list now of stuff that we're thinking about adding to them so i'm pretty happy with where that's progressing yeah that's that's really good and uh the next one is uh

adsense to work on the eip editor's rules and responsibilities block i thought i saw edson today in the meeting uh yeah i'm here yeah um i actually forgot about this item i'll try to get it done this week yeah sure no problem so that's all from the agenda that were added here if people have any more topic yeah i added an item sorry to interrupt oh no i'll just refresh it um funding for eip editors etc um i'm starting to have more i have an idea of

how to do this based on other models we have a few different options um i think as everyone's seen open grantsio i'm posting the link here um wait a second not up is it open no no no no never mind ignore that link it's the continuous grants thing that eth2 uses do you know what i'm talking about quadratic funding yes but there's a specific page that like uses it um dang it why can't i remember it all right either way it's a it's a website i'll i'll have to find it later um where everybody pulls their ether together into a contract that over time

gives out ether to a set of participants in a multi-sig based on milestones so my thinking is we could have one for eip editors there's one for eth2 developers we could have one for eip editors um and then people can contribute to that so that would be a cool thing for organizations to show their support and like maybe we could put oh that'd be that'd be messy could we like put their logo on the eip repo or is that like corporate sponsorship i don't have preference on the logo side of things um what would be the milestones you had in mind oh

um it wouldn't be that complicated it would just be like um being an active eip editor based on consensus among x number of people or something i don't know i'd have to think more about what the milestones would be but it wouldn't be anything like x number of pull requests handled or anything like that that would have take someone an extended amount of time to actually calculate because yeah that's we don't need to waste time it might just be like having people decide who deserves the money by consensus or something or voting that's some i don't some like uh it's still not really clear who gets to

choose who gets to be vip editors or like who would not get funding um that's amazing yeah we'd have to just figure out figuring that out it's gonna take some time yeah so this is gonna be wrong yeah this would be a longer process and it would be a cleaning up the eip editors who are currently on there and kicking people off who aren't active would be step number two one or two and then um if we decide to go that is if we decide to go that route it might be complicated to use a brand new thing like that and then we can go the traditional gnosis safe with companies who have a voice in deciding where their money goes or they can delegate to the eip editors

themselves who um to pick among themselves and have like a third neutral party like the cat herders if we can call that a neutral party that's some kind of like mechanism for keeping it from being like a lobbying organization we've kind of avoided because no one gets paid for anything yeah that's the ultimate solution the ultimate solution if there's somebody to be made no one will show up yeah so there would have to be a a weird a thing on like if someone's

giving money you can't prioritize their eips or something like that which i think yeah this some kind of guard mechanism or like checking and balancing mechanism yeah which is good to build into thinking about it today's kind of the kernel of the idea because i've thrown around the idea of funding a few meetings and i want to get moving on it so i'm actually officially putting it on my to-do list for vip funding strategy and so what's this yeah each it's a really good idea you guys can love this so each editor will state the projects they're passionate about and they're only allowed to be sponsored by people who hate those projects no there's no conflict of interest so i

can i can only be sponsored by miners [Laughter] it's reverse conflict of interest yeah that's right we're making a new term okay we're groundbreaking again um okay yeah so um yeah i'll think on this more and if you're interested uh i'll probably move the discussion to eip editing and the discord sounds good and that's it for my item so yeah i mean like we are making quite good progress so we have been discussing about this eip editors funding for a while and now that we have clear something some clarity on how we

should proceed towards it i'm excited for it awesome that actually concludes all the items listed for today if anyone has anything else to bring up we have some time maybe if not thank you all for joining us today uh the next meeting is in two weeks from now that's on february 10 at uh 1500 utc thank you everyone for joining thanks puja thanks everyone awesome thank you later