Eigen's Dual Staking Dilemma: Eth vs Eigen Security | Roundup

Transcript

I feel it was super positive and bullish for Anan the token and igen layer at large and I wish more of the coverage had been focused on this the long list of announcements really overshadowed what I think is like one of the most interesting token designs uh we've seen to date um you know maybe the most interesting for an erc20 token hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to the Wormhole Foundation if you're a bell curve listener you know that transferring across chains can be a massive pain I certainly do I complain about it on this program all the time that's why we are super pumped to have partnered with the Wormhole Foundation the stewards of the Wormhole protocol the Wormhole protocol connects over 30 blockchains and six different run times including salana SOI ethereum layer 2s

and more and the coolest part about this particular partnership is that they have made custom bell curve nfts which you can get and mint for free you can claim that by just going down into the show notes and clicking on the link all right guys on with the show hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to this episode sponsor flood protocol the optimal decks aggregator now if you are a listener of bell curve you know that me is a massive problem which is why we are so pumped to partner up with flood on this season flood is the only gasless and me free aggregator that not only gets you the best execution but also gives you back all the extra Surplus that you create every single time you swap now this is relevant for both swappers and developers but you're going to be hearing all about them later in

the program so for now thank you flood and back to the show hey everyone this episode is brought to you by Unis swap delivering the best onchain trading experience in crypto period Bar None one thing I want to call out is the Unis swap extension so say goodbye these days of these annoying as s popup wallet extensions you lose your place trading you have to open it back up Unis swap now has a nice Sleek sidebar that persists no matter where you are in the web it's much easier to use if you click the link at the bottom of this episode you can join the waiting list and I'll see what I can do to get you moved up that waiting list but definitely go click the link check it out all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve before we jump in quick

disclaimer the views expressed by my co-host today are their personal views and they do not represent the views of any organization with which the co-hosts are associated with uh nothing in the episode is construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice you know the deal now let's jump into the episode all right everyone welcome back to another bell curve Roundup you got me and miles today the homie miles how you doing it's great to be back my friend um yeah spent some time on Empire but you know had to come back home yeah I know I I saw you over there um I what was that all about heart ripped out of my my chest here yeah but uh whatever you

started with the cream and then you gotta you gotta go down and and slum it with with Yen over there occasionally yeah yeah so I've been waiting for you to comment on my Mediterranean bronze here that I have for being in Italy it's a little rude you haven't said anything yet I was uh yeah waiting for the podcast so you could get you know the max amount of uh bang for your bucks with the my the compl but yeah you just front ran me on it oh dude honestly Italy at the risk of being non OB it is the best country on Earth it is so freaking nice over there they got the food they got the culture they got the the wine they got the coasts yes I I got no notes for Italy no notes uh nothing

to complain about it's all good out there it really is it really is so I guess in terms of I I do feel like so I actually unplugged from Twitter didn't check my feed at all for six days and when I came back I feel like I missed two years worth of news in in those six days because I was gone for the Igan layer airdrop and we'll call it a triple announcement because they actually packed three pieces of news into one two of which are actually extremely significant and I think we could just riff for as long as feels fun here on lien Lair announcement which is basically the big news of the week so do it maybe to give us to give a summary on what this triple announcement really was so on Monday Igan layer announced three

different things they announced the igen foundation which again is technically an announcement but should not have been a surprise to anyone we all assume that Igan was going to Ian lir was going to progressively decentralize but still they formally announced the um announced the foundation they also announced the details of the airdrop and they also announced this idea of igen as an inter subjective work token and effectively pushing this idea of dual staking between eth and enan the native token and you to be honest you know I I got a lot of this actually from the Block R slack and and the the sort of combined Twitter response but a lot of it was not super positive and I think

you and I both think are of the opinion that actually especially what they're doing on the igen Dual staking inner subjective warp token that is super cool and very bullish igen layer the project and igen the token but I think they overshadowed it by combining all of these announcements into one thing and to be honest not doing a super great job around communicating the details of the airdrop so why don't we start with the details of the airdrop that's gotten a ton of attention so far so we don't need to spend a ton of time on that but we should maybe Focus the majority of this on the more bullish uh sort of good part of igen the token but can you give us a sense uh of why why were people upset in general with with this airdrop um yeah I think uh so

maybe just running through like reasons off the top of my head why people might be upset about the airdrop um so they're going to airdrop a total of 15% of Supply which is actually quite a lot um now now this first round was only I think 5% um I could could be wrong on that um but I think you know maybe the amount was a little bit less for some people if they if they deposited later right and so it was a function of both how much you deposited and the time it's been in the protocol um but I don't think people should really be complaining it's you know based off of where igen is trading pre-market it's about a billion dollar airdrop um and it will just you know it'll be well over like two billion

dollars if they you know once you get to the full 15% um so why are people upset uh I think the the whole uh it being you know claimable on May 7th but not uh transferable meaning like you cannot sell your airdrop um for they have not announced any sort of timeline on when it becomes liquid but um you know I think this is uh something we'll see more and more um you know the current like legal is that you need to do this or lawyers are um you know strongly advising projects to do this um for for regulatory reasons and so not much you

can really do about that um and I think we'll get to like the the staking component and what the token does later but I think there's also a rationale that you could make here that um you know Igan wants to encourage folks to stake this right because it's going to be a critical part of the the aen layer you know trust and security Marketplace um and so if you can't sell it people are more likely to stake it especially if you then you know maybe in the future release some information around uh ongoing incentives for uh for staking the your Ian right um and then the last one um I think it was the Geo fencing right and so it was

uh I don't I don't really have benchmarks but it seemed like a long list of countries uh even compared to even compared to most uh most most air drops today and I think what pissed people off was that they didn't geofence deposits um you know they let you put in your your tvl um let you see your points accumulate and then you know it's not like those folks uh you know if they were to go to one of the approved countries couldn't claim their airdrop but it's just very challenging to do um yeah one of the geen countries right and so yeah I'll I'll pause there I I think you know some of this stuff is just the

regulatory environment it's really challenging um I don't think Ian layer ever you know want it like it wasn't their actual like desired to do this um yeah but but yeah it's just the Dynamics of um the regulatory environment so let's focus on that last point the the Geo fencing sure so I I just I got back didn't check Twitter for six days opened up my timeline and just saw a bunch of people whining about the I layer drop and I just tweeted nothing upsets C crypto people more than being given free money the wrong way and oh my God I I didn't know any of the details when I tweet this but I just got bodied got bodied people were super upset and they made they made a

couple of good points so one there's this idea it's not really free money is it right you're like you're locking up capital in a smart contract there is risk there you're taking on risk and you're getting compensated for that so it's not free and that's totally legitimate and then there it really was around the being not being Geo fence for depositing but being geofence for withdrawing and there was an additional Nuance which uh cedus parabus over at uh misari pointed out which is that they actually in not only did they allow people to deposit but they incentivized you to deposit with points and honestly I push back a little bit but I ended up agreeing with him that it does feel a little bit from the perspective of a

user like you know if you're going to incentivize me me with points and then not tell me that you're going to block me that does feel a little bit like a broken promise and I understand that here's something that I got a question for you on this so in terms of the risk that you are taking locking up capital in Igan lay how much risk are you really taking honestly like I I think the the pros and cons right of locking up Capital with an extremely well-funded blue chip frankly western-based project is like you're going to be subject to the Regulatory and Geo fencing stuff you just are and if we're treating people like adults I'm sorry there's a little bit of like you guys should have been aware of this like this should have occurred to you that this was going to

be the case that igen lay wasn't just going to throw caution to the winds ignore the regulators and like you know and so you know people were also complaining about the amount that they got aird dropped and it's like well the amount that you get aird dropped should probably be consument to the risk that you're taking and there's a massive difference in my mind of locking up capital in an igen layer smart contract which is probably audited by you know gigabrain team of devs smart contract Auditors all this stuff and they would probably compensate you anyway if there was some big problem with some $10 million D5 protocol and a new L1 like the compensation should be different yeah you know yeah I agree I agree I think um you know a lot of the deposits were speculative in nature a lot of the

deposits were not you know putting their eth into Ian because they want to hold it in there for the next you know 5 to 10 years and um and just have you know a nice three to four per of extra yield or whatever percent of extra yield it was it was really around expectations for this air drop and so you know any sort of speculative activity can go one way or the other um yeah and so that's that's you know that's kind of like I don't have a a ton of sympathy in in that sense but um yeah I I think you know I think there's not a lot to say on the the Geo fencing part and what is the risk like it's probably I know we saw like blast was a

multi right um I don't think Ian lay was a multisig but it may have had multisig governance for a bit um both of them you know uh is you're putting some level of trust in the team and in the developers and um yeah I don't I don't think it'd be one thing if you know uh there was um you had deposited into Igan lay SL uh you know reaking to avss was live for a long time with slashing right so maybe you're taking on slashing and smart contract risk and now you're feeling like you know this is this is really unfair um but no I don't think like the risks were that

crazy yeah okay miles what do you think about you know the other thing that people tend to complain about a little bit is the amount of first of all this isn't an aird drop it's a steak drop okay but the amount that is getting stake dropped to the community you know 15% and you and I have had this discussion before around airdrops there's you know to broadly overgeneralize I feel like most people fall somewhere in the middle around this but there are two camps there's the air drop entitlement Camp which is I want to just basically get aird drop the value of a free car and then dump my and then withdraw my assets and that's probably not worth it and then there's the camp which is these be like these people are taking an enormous amount of risk

locking up capital in a smart contract they're bootstrapping so that the project can get a high valuation and attention from VCS and all that stuff and again the truth probably is somewhere in the middle of of those two things but you know people around the igen lay air drop specifically what what do you think about the the 15% and this is maybe maybe the backdrop of this is that last week Renzo which is one of the new lrts they they did their airdrop and it was they allocated 2.5% of the supply to the community but they also they included they did a pie chart where they just resized the 2.5% to look like 25% which was not super great and then they ended up walking it back and

introducing more supply to the community but where do you fall because this is what always happens is well maybe you should be giving more or less what sure I I just maybe like take a step back what are the uh potential objectives of an airdrop and there can you can you can hit multiple of them and ideally you want to um way I look at it is one uh rewarding those early adopters who took on a lot of risk to bootstrap you know liquidity in your protocol or bootstrap whatever you were trying to incentivize right two is reaching potentially reaching new users right so airdropping to non-users that in in the hopes that they come you know either become a user or maybe even a developer like comes and

starts contributing right um and then I think there's uh three you can use an airdrop to incentivize future action that you want or future be you know behaviors that you want meaning you make it partially claimable right and the full claim is based off of uh continuing to use the the protocol in a way that you know protocol is trying to push users to do for this one maybe it's you know staking your beigen you'll get you know another phase of this airdrop that's just total speculation but that's one way to do it then there's uh the last one is just this like kind of fuzzy uh idea of uh getting your token

distributed as widely as possible to to a very large user base right um and there might be benefits to this around um wider decentral a of you know governance participants um maybe it's for some reason you you want lots and lots of different uh igen stakers um and igen holders so that you know it's not Ultra concentrated right if like I staking is going to be core to the protocol and it's you know the the Holdings are are really concentrated that poses a risk that at any point you know one of these very large holders could just pull out um so yeah I think those are are those are the kind of like

broad objectives and I think there was you know components of all this um with this igen player airdrop and I think again like 15% it it it also really matters you know that percentage matters a lot based off of what the market cap of your token is Right 15% is above industry benchmarks uh broadly and the market cap is well well you know what maybe one of the largest like you know projects to Launch in in a very long time right and so from an amount standpoint I I think you know well I'd be very curious to see just how like the distribution looks and how concentrated it is to like the the whale depositors versus um you know some of the smaller

depositors um but yeah I think they are rewarding early adopters uh sufficiently I I'm very curious to see like if you know future you know uh unlocks of even more airdrop is you know contingent upon staking it or something like that right um and yeah I think I don't know about the distribution piece here but I'll pause okay I've got some thoughts here and so totally agree with all the possible objectives of an airdrop one additional bit of context that I would add is I think that has Chang the emphasis on what airdrops are trying to do has changed over time I think if you listen to I think Kane was the original or he not it wasn't air it wasn't air

drops but uh yield farming and if you listen to guys like Kane and Rob Lesner in the beginning talk about how they thought of it I think there was a lot of sort of like Bitcoin and ethereum protocol design thinking there and if you listen to what they were trying to do yes they were trying to bootstrap liquidity and attract new depositors Etc but really they did believe in this idea of trying to get the tokens out into the hands of as many people as possible and similar to the design philosophy of Bitcoin and ethereum make get this very flat unopinionated protocol that uh people would build on top of and I think what has happened at least on the app layer is that largely people don't try to do that anymore they said you know what

that actually wasn't a very smart idea you can look at Like Ur and Sushi as examples of taking that way to the extreme and basically Distributing all your tokens and you're like oh I actually can't fund myself so you know this uh and by the way you know being subject to 10,000 Deens on the internet is not the correct way or governance structure to build an app and so a lot of the modern airdrops that are happening are much more are much more focused on what you the first couple reasons that you were saying acquiring new users incentivizing an action rewarding first users Etc and so the amount and and the especially because a lot of these are applike and you start to think of these as more Equity tokens

you know you want to distribute a smaller amount because you want rightly in an equity like thing you want it to be going to the team and the the builders Etc yeah um and and you know you you're not really trying to distribute that much of the supply I think on something like an L1 there still is an imperative to the the value of an L1 is that it is extremely distributed and you don't actually want there to be a ton of the supply in the hands of a couple big investors or team members and you can look at newer l1s as an example of you know maybe the new l1s if you wanted to do pros and cons versus ethereum and Bitcoin the pros is that they have the second mover Advantage there's new tech that's enabled uh you can learn from the mistakes a lot of the

early l1s made but the con and the tricky thing is that investors own a bunch of the new l1s and the supply schedule and the unlocks are going to be a and they're going to have to work through that so I and maybe this is where we can start to transition a little bit into the igen token and this rebranding as an inter subjective work token and Igan dual staking Ian Now by making Ian this uh sort of taking some of what eth was originally doing and actually making it this um slash token it actually looks a little bit more L1 like um than app Equity like and I think that you could have made a really strong you could make a really strong opinion

that if igen is going to be this inner subjective work token then you want it similarly to an L1 you want it into the hands of as many people as possible and you want it to be less subject to these big investor and team member unlocks and so honestly I'm usually a fan of limiting you know not just giving the community a bunch of the airdrop that they're just going to dump later but I think you could have made a pretty compelling argument in this case that Igan lir should have dropped more oh interesting um yes and no I I I honestly I'm not I'm not totally sure um because what really matters is that first of all like AVS is adopt igen as a staking token right um

point and think you want I mean to be fair to defend like why you know maybe an investor having all like big investor holders here is is good is because if there's lots and lots of this you know igen token that is you know locked up in investor investing contracts and going to be staked um that makes the amount of igen available for security higher right um and so I agree with you to a certain extent um I also think that you know it's it's kind of pros and cons of having these investors uh large investor like bases for l1s is that you end up with very large staking ratios like

salana has what 60 something percent staked most cos even higher yeah most cos like 70 yeah most Cosmos chains are above are well above 50% right um because these are long-term holders and you don't really want like you know if Igan if you're if you're the igen the protocol you want as many people to stake as is possible um and you know you don't want that number going way up and way down all the time because you know it's it's in the hands of people that uh are are actively trading it or or you know don't necessarily plan on holding it for the long term so but at the same time I agree with you you don't want that concentration risk that I that I mentioned in the first part um you know

as as well right it would not be good if like when Igan L finally vests all of a sudden you know 20 20 or 30% of like igen the security system is you know gone because yeah those those investors finally like uh unstake and sell um and so it's a nice Bal it's a balance right um and I think the other piece I would mention is uh with any airdrop it's also a question of opportunity cost it's you know what is this what could this 15% be going towards instead of an air drop and how important are those you know ongoing incentives that you would you would you

you will eventually Implement um in Fran's case I would argue that uh they will need you know uh heavy like ongoing incentives in order to kind of bridge this gap of enormous amounts of deposits to the realistic amount of real yield that like you know 30 to 50 avss are going to generate uh a year from now right um and so I wouldn't say like if you you know like blow your whole wad on the airdrop and then you're left with like a pretty small incentive pool um that could actually really hurt like adoption of the platform because there's you know there's no there's not enough um of the supply to really help avss

like keep those stakers and operators on board uh in the early days before we hit like exit velosity on the the real rewards yeah I think it might be interest I you've actually convinced me I take it back I agree with you I it is interesting to to compare the igen airdrop to by the way this is something that investors have been arguing about for a long long time I don't know if you remember like Bill Gurley going on podcast a couple years ago boning the traditional IBO IPO process talking about direct listings and you know if you talk to traditional investment bankers they describe this kind of like nice aesthetic pop like they're trying to price the Ico such that like underprice it just a little bit so that

it pops on the first day and it's this nice marketing event and the bill Gurley argument says how much are you paying for that initial pop right because the way that IPO works is you sell at an initial share price that's the cash that goes into your bank and you know if it pops on the first day you could be looking at five to seven per that you could have sold more that could be in your bank account that you could be doing things with yeah and so people people argue about this because you know on the one hand it's like man that's a really expensive marketing campaign that we're running here on the other hand if you have a bad IPO day I probably it doesn't matter but like it does kind of stay on you it's a little bit of a stench that you gota you

gotta work off this is the first impression that that people have of you in the markets so I don't know I don't have a super strong opinion on it it's just a it's a challenge but I but I agree that you you don't want to blow your whole W in one shot and also it's it's it's just kind of a human psychological thing when you give someone something for free they don't value it as much as opposed to kind of make them work for it I agree with that it's funny um I didn't think about the whole like uh non- claimable aspect here but yeah maybe maybe Equity IPOs should also do a stake drop where it's not non-transferable right because it is there is something to be said like when it's claimable on day one and tradeable on day one and it's just down only um oh

yeah it's it's doesn't you know really help with the kind of you know makes the party a little uh a little bit less fun right um kind of D dampens the mood a bit but well we have our So In traditional markets there's a something called a green shoe option which is a provision and IPO underwriting that grants the underwriter the right to sell more shares than originally planned so basically invest the the Investment Bank that wins the Mandate usually there are many different investment banks that are involved in an IPO mandate but they have this option to basically prop up the the stock if it's if it's uh tra trading lower on day one I guess the crypto version of that is whatever the agreement that the token issuer has with

market makers which has always been a little bit of a black box for me it depending on who you listen to it's totally above board or it's basically a thinly veiled pump and dump you know where mm are granted option basically options free options in the token so yeah I I think it is actually an important psychological there's an important psychological impact to whether the token goes up or down but they have other levers for making that happen they do so they do they do um but yeah I think it'll it'll be very interesting um to kind of like just you know see the supply dynamics of of Ian once it finally does go live and how much stays staked and and what the like you know

the incentives are to do so hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to the title sponsor of this season of bellur The Wormhole Foundation now if you are an onchain user which I bet you are if you're listening to belr you know that the cross chain experience in crypto still sucks let's just call a spade a spade we talk about it on this program all the time interop is still a big problem which is why we specifically wanted to team up with the Wormhole Foundation they are a decentralized interop platform that powers multi-chain applications and bridges so that could be anything from defi to nfts governance oracles and more so if you are a developer and you're building uh cross chain assets apps or data or anything like that I highly recommend that you

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and lay at large and I wish more of the coverage had been focused on this so yeah yeah right it's like there there's so much packed into this day and I think I know there was you know pieces of news that were very easy to predict like we're not going to leave people thrilled right um and unfortunately the you know those parts of the announc of the the you know the long list of announcements really overshadowed what I think is like one of the most interesting token designs uh we've seen to date um you know maybe the most interesting for an erc20 token um you know that goes so far beyond you know uh just the typical governance

token um and and really also solves like big problems for the protocol um with this design um and so yeah I think we can there might have been you know in hindsight maybe uh like if if I were in their shoes or you know like we were talking about this before we before we started recording maybe you space these things out a little bit more right you you get people really excited about the token uh the purpose of the token and Ian staking uh with the white paper and the blog post and you know the threads right and then you kind of prepare people for maybe the uh um the less great news around like CLA mobility and

um Geo fencing and stuff like that with like an announcement and then you finally you know release like the claims but it's okay so just one one more final note on the Geo fencing stuff so there's a great I I would recommend people go read this post about this from Jake trinsky there's a lot of armchair lawyers here that really don't know what they're talking about Jake trinsky is a guy who absolutely does know what he's talking about and he describes in detail that a so the extremely complicated and frankly like risky kind of scary regulatory environment that these Protocols are facing and why non-transferability and geofencing are super important so I I just recommend

that people do that but the other thing that at least I have come into contact with around whenever legality becomes a thing uh sometimes it produces these weird results with where all right let me give you like an example so there's a really unfortunate way that the legal system works around HR sort of complaints are you know if you are like if there's a situation where you need to an employee has to be let go or something like that you by saying that you're sorry like hey this isn't working out I'm sorry oh yeah you were admitting you are admitting that you are at fault here and then that can be turned and used against you if that person would have turn

around and Sue so the legal system in some cases forces these really weird inhumane interactions with people and I I don't know if this is the case but maybe there it would not Shock me at all if you know people like well why didn't igen layer say that they were going to geofence the lawyers might have said hey if you indicate that you're geofencing it's a tacid admission that you should be worried that it's security blah blah blah you know I I don't know that that's the case it just wouldn't shock me so sorry I wanted to no no it's such a good example like an analogy to bring up because yeah sometimes it just kicks you know legal stuff kicks like common sense and logic to the win and it's just it's really frustrating um but you know that that's where we are that's okay so Miles

let's let's get into it here this is the really exciting second part of this announcement which is positioning I as I keep using this jargon an inner subjective work token so can you give the audience a sense of what does that phrase mean why are we talking about this idea of inner subjectivity and then what is the new the role of igen the token going to be within the igen layer mechanism and apparatus yeah okay great so let's break that up let's start with what is a work token um we all know like work tokens we that's one way to call an L1 staking token or any sort of staking token right um You are staking Capital to do work and in return uh you know the capital collateral collateralize the

work you do and if you do good work you get rewarded if you do bad work you lose that Capital right or you lose a portion of that capital from slashing um now before we get to like inter subjective uh work tokens um I think we should first lay out really what are work tokens today um and what are the limitations of them um and so there's this concept of um you know objective and attributable and versus inter subjective and attributable um and the limitations with work tokens today are that they are objective and approve and attributable only what that really just means is that they can only secure work

that is you know provable on chain and they can only slash when it is provable on chain everybody can see from local information that to you you know double signed a block header right um or everybody can see that you didn't follow the rules of the chain locally um that everybody has has agreed upon right um and now where this becomes tricky is that a lot of igen layer avss the type of work that they are doing is not uh if if it's done incorrectly it's not provable on chain um and sometimes it's uh you know the problem is this work is

taking place on a different chain right um whether it's a restake reaking secured L1 or maybe it's just this you know Committee of operators right um and so it's very hard to prove things on ethereum um that you know some something was done on an AVS that was malicious um and sometimes it's even Impossible on that AVS to prove on chain that it was malicious um so yeah an example of this easy example of this is just incorrect price feeds right so Oracle Oracle provides price feeds um you know there's nothing on chain that can tell you that you know giving you know a price of

Bitcoin as like a dollar when it should be $70,000 is is incorrect right but to humans observing the system you know can clear it's it's it's not contentious at all right that it's incorrect and so that's inter subjective um there's another category of like subjective which is you know was this good or bad like is is Italy better than France you know and and that is it is correct that's not subjective at all right right right like that's not yeah that that's out of scope out of scope that's not good for work tokens period but the problem is you know again it's really hard to construct slashing uh agreements

for this category of intersubjective and attributable faults um that is things that cannot be proven on chain and we have you know 16 whatever it is billion dollars worth of restak eth right and we do not want to be you know putting that restak eth at you know risk of slashing with things that are completely you know decided basically and socially right like offchain and in governance um and so what do they do they have basically you know all abss have uh a type of really easy types of slashing to handle which is everything that is objective and attributable and

they have other types of slashing that is really messy and this is this inter subjective category of slashing um and you know I think this whole concept of you know overloading ethereum social consensus happens when you know let's say the16 billion do of eth is securing an AVS right um and the majority of op ators collude or something like that it's not provable on chain and is inter subjective and then we end up having to Fork ethereum to to Really roll back this chain um so what do they do they introduce a second staking token that is basically meant to handle all of the the messy kinds of slashing and that is igen

um and so AVS is I think what they're saying should have you know two types of of work tokens securing them they should have eth securing them or or any sort of you know non-ig token securing them for things that are objective and attributable so things that are proven onchain um and they should have Anan securing basically any any work that is you know inter subjective not being able to be needs needs governance basically to arbitrate slashing right um and so that that's what exact like Ian is um and so we've had like inter subjective work work tokens before uh they

reference augur as one of the original types um but there were a couple issues with with that previous iteration of inter subjective slashing token one being that it is very special purpose so it was just built for like the arbitration process was just built for prediction markets uh yeah I got thumbs up thumbs up bubble I hate those things by the way I don't know I oh they bring me joy I think it's so funny every once in a while resum someone will give like the thumbs up or like the balloons will fall from the exactly very serious conversation I just have balloons all over my head yeah anyways okay um and and so anyway so yeah previous iterations with special purpose um and

the other problem is that when there is you know a slashing event right that's inter subjective it's handled via a fork so the token Forks now that's you know all good in a world without defi but now that's really challenging when you have two different versions of these tokens right and one should you know have no market value but that means everybody who has that token you know not in the staking contract in in defi has to be able to follow the correct fork and it it's just not practical and nobody's nobody's pursued it before because it's because of the challenges there um and so Ian uh breaks these tradeoffs by creating this you know um purpose-built

token that is meant to handle inter sub inter subjective and attributable you know types of slashing events um and so the trade-offs they've broken is that this is now you know a universal token so igen can be used for any different AVS um and they do this because you know what's built into the igen contracts is that you can set up rules you know as you're setting up the AVS right so instead of everything following one special purpose set of rules you can make you know this is this is more modular where you can have each AVS have its own you know set of pre-agreed upon rules and laws right um so that when

there is a slashing event it's it's really it's not contentious everybody who is observing you know and uh knows the rules right so they're preset can follow them and and follow the Right Fork right um so I'll pause I'll pause there but definitely some more like um comments to uh to kind of unpack so all right there's a there's a lot there and I think there's there's kind of like the value of a work token then there's also the this objective versus Inter subjective sort of slashing conditions and to give you an idea I think one you and I were talking about this old example from August of last year in Cosmos which ended up it's something called prop 818 and it was

this very contentious vote vot that got done this was in the early days of replicated security over on Cosmos where two validators double signed so in in a sense this is a bad example because this is actually a really objective slashing condition but listening to the drama play out of whether or not these validators should actually be slashed could tell you a little something about how contentious anything that isn't pure even this case was interesting because it was actually purely objective like how how much human drama these sorts of events can actually create because this is people's money on the line right and and I think in the cosmos example I think that these validators actually get tombstoned so they just get booted out

and they can't come back so there was more than just the whatever the slashing uh conditions were yeah there was like much greater yeah and to me that you know points to the the huge importance of like setting pre-agreed upon processes and rules um you know before these things launch slashing right um and in that case it was um you know even the fact that governance had to actively do the slashing is probably not ideal right if it's objective then it should it's on chain then it should just follow a set of smart contracts that or that process happens automatically um if it's something really messy then you should have agreed

upon the rules beforeand and make the decision that has to go through governance as you know non-c contentious as possible right it's hey here are the rules they broke them vote Yes uh if you are you know following the rules that you also agreed to follow right um yeah so that that that to me is like uh the importance of of setting I think all of this up uh well in advance and you know especially with having like you know two sets of of slashing rules or two if you have two types of like work tokens and that map to different types of slashing um making that all very clear and making you know the latter the messy kind kind

of like able to be AVS specific right uh because abss will have their own roles so the you know getting to the the other part of this which is just this idea of work tokens th this is I agree with you this is such an interesting Innovation you got to hand it to Igan layer they are category creators they they came up with the whole concept of reaking and I think this is you know people talk lot about tokenomics but I think this is probably the first genuinely Innovative toonomic like token design that I've seen in in quite some time and if you think about the value of ether being okay people view it as a money but the reason why you actually want to hold it is you need it to participate in validating the ethereum network and you can do things like stake

it and get rewards Etc this is positioning igen the token within the igen layer reaking ecosystem as something very similar it's it's a it's a work token and there's a reason to hold it outside of like a more traditional Equity app token like thing where you're getting extreme of cash flows like it actually belongs within the protocol and it's not jammed in there or jimy it's it's actually done in such a way that it solves a real problem yep I think I think the ethereum I there needs to be a better word than ethereum deed state but like the the the ethereum sort of core devs ethereum Foundation is going to like this a lot because there was always a concern around igen layer overloading ethereum's consensus this removes an enormous portion of those risk

and I think it's going to acre a lot of value to the Token so yeah let's maybe unpack exactly what like what that means though like um so by showing like the worst case scenario without this igen token staking design versus you know what it a worst case scenario would look like with it right and so let's imagine there's you know a huge AVS like Igan da and Igan DA has you know hundreds of rollups that it's supporting um for Igan da the inter subjective type of slashing is data withholding u meaning so these IG da operators download the data they have a uh a system called

proof of custody which is objective and attributable so if the operator doesn't download the data there's you're you we have the way to prove that and and slash them with you know with like anything all the data is on chain you can you can actually see that right but there's this second concept of what if they downloaded the data they passed the proof of custody test but then they withhold the data they don't Prov they don't make it available right not making data available is not something that you can prove on chain right so that's the inter subjective type of slashing here and without this igen um without this dual staking sort of system where ien can handle the inter subjective Type U

the the data withholding what would end up happening is you know let's say the majority of end da validators collude um and so they you know are doing something where it looks like the majority is is all doing it which usually means it's it's correct and honest but in this case it's a you know dishonest majority um they withhold a bunch of data let's say the sequencer operators that are in cahoots with the da operators are able to basically steal a bunch of user funds um now without Igan here the only way to punish these operators and to you know basically recover These funds is to Fork ethereum itself like this is the example

of what people are worried about when they say overloading ethereum's consensus meaning that you know the slashing um you know is not provable on chain and so you have to do it through some sort of like social consensus or governance and without Anan that fallback is ethereum itself right and so that's that's when all the you know the folks that warned us about the risks of IUN come out and say like this is what we told you it's you know overloading ethereum's consensus no good right bad outcome um now let's take that same scenario like with this dual staking design right um so in this in this dual staking design you would have basically the the proof of custody so the storing and the downloading downloading storing

part um basically secured by restake eth and you would have data withholding you know secured by restake igen um now the same scenario occurs uh you can actually punish these actors even if it's the majority that colluded by basically submitting a challenge that says hey guys we agreed upon this you know preset rule that they had to Not Only Store and download but they had to make the data available right we can all see right with our human eye that they did not make the data available we're going to fork igen or we're going to Fork bean and those that you know we going to vote on it um okay great so now we have

a new version of Igan that is the canonical igen the dishonest validators are punished because this new Fork basically Burns all the tokens that were stake to them um and so we don't have to actually Fork you know ethereum through social consensus in order to punish the dishonest validators we can punish them you know the more of like the app layer right with this ERC uh 20 token that was that was stake to them um yeah so in that case yeah EF is happy you didn't overload um ethereum social consensus you kind of you know pushed kicked all that the messy slashing stuff to igen token um and that's good because it it

satisfies basically you know both types of of of faults um and beforehand you you know could not actually punish you know those those Bad actors without forking ethereum so there's a lot to unpack there and I think the immediate all right so let's talk about this within the context of igen the token is this a good thing or a bad thing or bullish or bearish the token I suppose you you could make it you could make a case that it would be bearish the token because What's the phrase you're making a first risk Capital right you are essentially securing the you're basically you're under in any risks within this sort of rehypothecation system and you're saying that look I I'm

going to position our Network Equity token as the first risk Capital which to be honest is what like a and some of the other D5 protocols do as well it's what banks do and that's kind of risky eventually over a long enough period of time bad things happen you know you end up burning through some Equity value and then people apply a little bit of a discount there sure okay so maybe that's not great I I I do think though the well I'm just going to say I I don't really agree with that take because the I think first of all the the risk of slashing does not happen very often and to be honest there especially as soon as you get into this realm of inter subjectivity you know no one's really incentivized for it to happen even there's a huge difference between for

forking ethereum versus forking igen layer but even the hurdle rate for approving a vote to Fork igen layer is extremely high I think these slashing events are not going to happen very much at all so I think your positioning igen is this extremely useful token and I think there's probably much less risk than there would be in the case of like a bank or something like that defaulting on its portfolio of loans there also is an emerging school of thought that actually slashing maybe we don't need slashing really at all this is a quote from to girl over at scroll the more time passes the more I start to agree with Kevin uh sniki from from aabs that slashing is not necessary for protocol

security and I've heard this take around before this was know six months ago people were debating should there even be slashing on Ian layer ever and I was always in the camp that you need slashing but you know one thing I've been thinking about is that you in Bitcoin there's really no concept of slashing you know and that actually works I know you know don't at me I know proof of work and proof of stake are very different but it actually kind of works fine um and so I don't know I've been more in the camp that maybe slashing it is a little bit of an overrated Concept in general and uh yeah I I think it's just very bullish I think those that's not a significant risk and it just the whatever the benefits that you get from making igen Necessary to hold

and valuable outweigh the risks of slashing cool yeah I agree um maybe just to address like the slashing like is it useful or not piece first and then I'll can give you like my overall thoughts on on the token um so I would say not having slashing with proof of stake um it still does make the cost of attack higher right if you have proof of stake without slashing and you're able to you know even if you bring in a bunch of restak you know security without slashing that still makes the cost of attack higher it's not nothing right um and so yeah like we been very involved

in the development of mes security and we're going to do a similar roll out of mesh security without slashing then M mesh security with like some slashing because there are benefits to just increasing that you know Economic Security number to a very high like you know to very high value makes it harder to actually attack the J um the second piece is if you were my biggest you know qual slashing is that it's typically The Operators that would be doing anything malicious and it's not their Capital right that's getting slashed uh so you're slashing these like everyday stakers um because they selected the wrong operator the operator is you know basically getting the reputation slash but let's just put that aside for a

second because I I do think these systems are more secure with slashing it's just a question of like um you know can you basically get most of those benefits with without it um now like to My overall thoughts on on like the token um I think this is overall like I I toally get the first risk Capital like I think it's a bit skoric and I don't think it's a you know I I think you could argue that you know every L1 token is first risk capital in in that sense and we're not bearish on them um so why I actually I really love this because I think everybody was looking at slashing coming and again the really messy

slashing types the AVS specific slashing types are pretty scary at least on the on the surface um and by kind of kicking all of the messy slashing types to igen that keeps the cost of capital for restak eth really low indefinitely right it's saying the only way that this act the only risk you're taking on is double signing and like incorrect execution maybe and those things are you can mitigate those things with lots of different tools like you know cubis is a great product that has like the uh the anti-s slasher which protects against double sighning um and that is because my worry was that when slashing is

implemented you know there would be very big outflows because people that were there who were okay with the risks of depositing without slashing maybe they're not okay with the risks of depositing with slashing right yeah and now you're limiting the surface area of that of what can be slashed with that huge number of tvl right um and kicking that over to I and that's okay like that keeps the cost of capital of that original tvl really really low I've got a question for you on that though so let's put ourselves in the shoes of an AVS that's procuring security here now in initially everyone was just doing it in eth terms now they're going to have to make this extra decision how much do I want in Ethan

ninade security and how much do I want in igen if if the idea is that and how's it going to work in between okay eth is lower cost of Capital so maybe cheaper uh to acquire or like you can buy and bulk type thing people already own it right people already own it but you're not actually uring yourself from some of the riskier you know inner subjective challenges that you actually could have so how do you balance you know what is the mix going to look like ultimately of Ian denominated security versus eth denominated security it's a great question versus versus also the native token which is originally when we were talking about dual reaking yeah they

were there was going to be some amount of their own token token um I the short answer is we don't know I just I think in terms of the cost it will probably be you know eth is the cheapest um because it's the most abundant and there's the least amount of like slashing risks around it uh igen is probably going to be the second cheapest because everybody like I is going to be a much larger market cap than you know all of these AVS tokens right and they're anybody in the igen layer ecosystem who is you know already staked eth is gonna own some igen right and they're going to restake that too um now

is there are are projects because they don't projects haven't really been doesn't seem like they're being very precise right with the amount of like eth restak eth that they want it's just kind of like let's get a big number I don't know how precise they're going to be with the amount of restake Dion I suspect it's actually not going to be that that precise um as well but it's hard it's hard to say and now there's this last question on the native token staking right yeah right because you could have you there is you know I kind of need to think about it a little bit more I would say that there's a world where you could have maybe you could kick the inter subjective slashing to the native token only and then you know use that instead of Ian and then have

you know restak eth just get you that big number for like objective and attributable sort of slashing right um I think the challenge there is that it's still not as abundant as igen is going to be for among this supply side of operators and stakers right um not everybody's going to hold your native token you're going to have to go get it's going to you know like a cosmos chain you have to get investors etc etc um and two it's not custombuilt really to handle these these uh inter subjective sort of slashing events right it there's you know a world where like native tokens that would have to Fork

maybe to um to actually resolve some of these really really messy like tyranny of the majority slashing events that's actually not great because they have that token used in defi as well and that kind of goes back to that original issue whereas you know this igen token is like custom built to be able to handle those those sort of forks right without disturbing uh liquid igen which is you know being used in Defi and so I would say that could have these like TR staking sort of systems right where you get like really the majority of your um of your security it just feels complicated this have this though like

you you could pay for security right with emissions to igen stakers and to eth stakers um and you could send protocol Revenue to Native token stakers um and then as your protocol grows over time you could make you know the these could also be like two different consensus sets um yeah I agree seems really freaking complicated um but at the same time don't it's it's like there is a way to do this where you know it's not saying that token holders are missing out on on value capture here I think value capture of like protocol revenue is a totally separate question than

what's securing your protocol um so yeah there's a lot lot there but okay so we don't really know how it's going to shake out in between what protocols are going to want more eth or igen how are the yield Dynamics going to work here and I think there are two two like one thing that I am at least questioning is there was always a little bit of a question of where is the yield going to come from on the eth because there are 50 avss Ian L announced 50 plus abss but there's $16 billion dollar worth of eth and the whole point of reaking is that the emissions are lower than they otherwise would be if you were just a cosmos chain or whatever so how much of that like what is the apy going to be on the units of e that are getting

deposited like not super high and the Delta there was going to be the igen token as you know really people are farming en but now igen has positioned itself as like actually we are you know the en token is kind of the token that is going to be acre some of the yield and again the other reason is this is bullish for Igan is now igan's gonna have its own return stream but now is the role of Anan going to be subsidizing the eth deposits still like how is that whole yield Dynamic going to work um you know yeah I agree with you if you're saying that like we were already gonna have to use Anan to bridge the gap for eth stakers and now you're going to also have to use igen here to incentivize Igan staking right and yeah that it

could end up being a challenge um I still think it solves more problems than it causes though I think that's that's one of the examples it causes um or like one of the maybe like issues that that get that's caused here um but I think people are just going to want to hold and stake enan as a way to basically get uh you know this index exposure to all these AVS rewards um and so you know I think AVS emissions aird drops that's going to cover some some portion right uh I think lrts are going to you know handle a lot of these agreements in general and um yeah I think I think it's

still fair to like ask what the apy is going to be though um and and look at this big number and say like well it's just getting bigger now right um and yeah you need you need lots and lots of abses um and I I do think that like this also just you know so without Igan again like what other problems does this solve for for I longer term it does solve kind of a monetization problem right um yeah yeah if igen was just a governance token then the only way to actually like have value flow back to igen Holders would have been to take a rake on those eth payments uh those payments to e

sakers right and we're already saying that like you know there's too many deposits right for the amount of like value that's going to be flowing to them and so if you were to try to take a rake on top of that that's a really tough you know kind of overly extractive proposition whereas you introduce igen right and you give it like you you you give it a purpose that solves protocol problem right and value can flow back to it for solving that problem because you take on you take on risk as I get theist um so yeah no overall I think overall I think extremely bullish so here's like a maybe zooming out of these specifics in general is one of the the reasons that I was and remain

very bullish on igen layer for eth Value acrel was that you're going to unlock this new yield reward stream and I know this this is kind of a heretical or sort of unpopular opinion but I have the reason I think eth is very bullish as an asset RIT large is that it can do this thing that Bitcoin can't which is earn yield and you know I understand the the logical arguments that a lot of people it's a work token it's a it is a productive work token and by making it a universal work token that's productive set you are expanding the market share of the reward streams that eth can acre to it so in a sense this

is this is now you're taking some of those reward streams and diverting them to the IG token and I I think probably it's it's a positive some overall because you're mitigating a lot of the risk that eth was going to take on by earning those new reward streams but yeah I don't know so I think it's probably just positive some actually I think so too I think the risk that like eth would have taken on you know without um by you know taking on both the like pretty straightforward types of slashing and the messy kinds like would probably not be worth the you know uh whatever the sort of like marginal rewards they get for taking the inter

subjective messy stuff um at some point it just would have been really scary and it would have raised the cost of capital a lot for abss which would have you know you know in turn like actually probably styed the whole growth of this re reaking um ecosystem so yeah I think no net net very positive they are you know using this token to solve you know challenges that the protocol had they're make using this token to keep you know the economics of the marketplace um kind of really healthy and and really you know I guess the cost low on the supply side um and then they have you know now a great excuse to take basically capture value from the entire ecosystem of avss

uh because the token's actually do doing something critical for them um yeah but this question of like will every AVS adopt enan for inter subjective and attributable like uh sorts of of work I think I think they will but I think I think I think it's right to question um and really they kind of like unpack what the trade-offs are of using this versus just using uh the native slashing token with with restake e yeah I I think there there there is a question there I do think maybe some protocols will opt not to do it but overall I think it's kind of a

no-brainer from it's just rare that you see such a win-win win and maybe I'm be I hear myself being really positive on it if there are alternative opinions or push back whatever hit me in miles up about it because I would love to you know I know this is still really early this news just got unveiled a couple days ago but yeah when I when I kind of got the gist of what they were describing it just clicked for me and made a ton of sense so yeah I'm supportive of it yeah exactly um I think at the end of the day it's up to the like demand side of AVS is to decide if this is uh you know really bullish or not but on paper if you're if you're igen layer and you can get them to adopt it then yeah incredibly um positive

development I think yeah cool it'll be uh fun to see how this plays out and you know how these actual like designs are set up um and if we have like a you know set of best practices that we kind of land on sooner rather than later but also maybe the last last thing I wonder what these like uh you know incoming competitors are going to do now me too right you've kind of unveiled now this New Concept um this it's going to be even more egregious if you just copy and paste this exact same like concept for for whatever your new you know reaking protocol is or is there a way that you know they're going to

counter position with something that's you know a little bit more like hey you know don't you don't have to make our token integral to your security system like you know we're going to make it easy for you to lean on your native token at the cost of maybe value capture from our side um so so yeah pay attention to how to like these competitors counter position or if they just I think I think I'm taking a leaf out of your book here I think there's there's a distinction that the market doesn't fully get yet which is the external versus native reaking you know like and I think there's a big opportunity for there protocol that's you know launching later this year which is probably GNA go with the native uh the native rep like

there are a couple angles you could do you could do you could really focus on the native stuff and adopt a large majority of e validators and do me boost like things which makes a lot of sense to me you could like I know you're not super bullish on this I just think it really depends like you could accept multiple assets right instead of just going for E you do I am I am a bullish on that for some reasons yeah just not okay cool yeah so I think there are different angles the there was an article in coindesk uh this week about how salana reaking is taking over and uh they hinted that jeto is you know unconfirmed if that's true but you know hinted that jto is getting into that game and so yeah I I I think honestly I

think it's a it's I bet you we could do an update pod in like three months I bet reaking is going to become a crowded space because just like anything else they're going to be copycats and to be honest probably people are going to lose a lot of money I think igir has a pretty strong first mover Advantage here um but we'll see I agree yeah you could you could counter position like the axis are like on the design of the protocol and you could counter position by going after a different set of use cases you know as you mentioned like Nao versus this external reaking um or you could counterposition with like different sort of Economics right maybe like propping up the native token more so than um of your customers more so than like you

know using something like Ian or like whatever their governance token is uh of all those I hate the last the most because the the ultimate problem with like shared security and reaking is I think you're trading you're you're asking people to basically take on the equivalent of like foreign exchange risk sort of uh like getting paid in like a something that is sort of low liquidity and unproven Etc and it could go to zero type thing as opposed to a token they actually want to hold and which is eth and maybe igen so I don't know I think propping that up is you're like taking on even more of that risk than you otherwise would and if if it

were me I'd be taking a risk management if I was in charge of one of these reaking protocols like I know you have to you know hey you know Mr Mrs abs like we're not going to dump your token but like realistically they want to dump the token you know um not trying to hold these things on the balance sheet and take a bunch of token risks yeah exactly exactly yeah so any lots lots more to come y yeah well the just an in ending we got to pour one out for our fallen homie uh CZ I don't know if he's a fallen homie or whatever he is but cz's got four months in in in prison for violating uh kyc ml so end of an era end of an era but you know he's gonna hold

on to all of his binance shares I can't believe he got four that's so like it is a simulation simulation confirmed yeah but yeah I I wonder if that's a little bit of a win win because four months of jail sucks but he keeps all of his he retains his ownership he only had to pay a $50 million fine only 50 million I mean he's got you know you got 10 billion it is only 50 million however many billions he's got got a lot yeah yeah it's crazy um yeah I think uh Curious doesn't feel like binance been has been affected so um as long as binance keeps chugging it's kind of like a we'll see in four months yeah yeah um you know I wonder all these

personalities I I do wonder how they're going to evolve a lot of them are just going to get turned out but I could see CZ and being like maybe like a Michael milin sort of figure you know just kind of revered like I think people like Michael milin because a it seems like he was a really bright guy very Innovative in a lot of Senses but he was representative of kind of the cowboy days of Wall Street the wild west you know lbo you know junk bond takeovers that used to happen and there's probably on Wall Street I would guess a heavy amount of nostalgia for those days and you know right now you and I spend a lot of time you know uh like this wild west kind of era but you know when it's gone I bet we're gonna miss it like this yeah

100% keeps it entertaining it'll you know it will be a lot more boring um at some point but it's okay there is no industry like it it just moves so fast it's so Dynamic it's so interesting yeah go away for six days and come back come back to a whole new whole new Newsfeed um yeah like does that happen in any other industry if you left I don't know healthc care for six days would you feel like you missed a full year of of stuff unless they cured cancer no I agree I've been working on that for a while yeah yeah all right buddy this was a fun one I think we can drop it here yeah I hope we did Justice we got more to talk about soon um we'll get more details and yeah good to uh it was a lot of fun it was

Buddy it was all right see hey everyone Mike here if you're a bell curve listener you know that transferring assets across chains can be a massive pain I certainly do I complain about it on this program all the time that is why we are incredibly excited to have teamed up with the Wormhole Foundation the stewards of the Wormhole protocol and the coolest part about this particular partnership is that they have made custom bell curve nfts which you can get and mint for free click the link at the bottom of this episode take you get your free nft pap