EDDC Team Meeting #10

Transcript

um you know a couple of these items are going to go by real quick uh new staking pools that got back to us i reached out to quite a few my issue is that limboshi right now controls that document to see if they're being updated i don't think the excel sheets we've had uh like where we did all the color scheming for example update and so uh superfiz would you mind reaching out to lemboshi just to either get access to that or or etc you see what i'm saying i will yeah i did once and i'll ping him again um i have i'm running the uh the document that i shared so i control that one and that's where i did a lot of the color coding um but in terms of the question and answer form he does control that and

i will i will continue to because that's the key i know i've been reaching out to people and i've said i've had people say oh i answered but that's the way that we can see those answers okay and if are we all good on that item perfect uh phil do you want to update everyone on the further due diligence sure so um james uh medicine and me we had a meeting i don't know last a few days ago um and we talked about how we can basically bring

other people in in order to move this deeper due diligence process forward um and so the we i don't know whether that was consensus within our small group but i had the idea that this could um be a four-step process in total such as that we um have volunteers that gather general information and that could be for example we could ask the people from the eath staker educator group for example then we ask the existing user base of the pools to provide some feedback and also to for example we could use the ether

for putting up claims about the pool and then they can provide their feedback there third step is um a closer look at the architecture and that could be by a subcommittee in this from this initiative and the fourth step would be putting all together in a final report um yeah and so um first step was to take the document i made a few weeks ago which outlined outlined the process and tagged everything that could be um so so that we can split up

all the different kind of parts into the different steps and medicine tag um all the kind of i mean i can share my screen maybe can you see me can you see my screen yes okay um so that was the original document that i made a few weeks ago um which was basically the the all the different kind of information we

need to together and look at for the deeper due diligence i came up with um and so medicine went ahead and tagged all the different kind of pieces that we should look at individually and i took that and tried to make some spreadsheet out of it so i made a spreadsheet that looks like this which is a general pool information spreadsheet and we can create one for each of the pools and then we can ask volunteers to um put on the information about

the pool and first section is about general um information about the business itself staying pool name domain legal name and so on um second section is about the team members their past experience and and also um we we should always try to include a reference so that at the end of the final report we can back that up with with something i don't know a document or wherever we we got the information from uh i just want to say that's a really awesome thing to be doing phil because if we ever do decentralize this and have more community input the key

thing we're going to always have is a fact stated and something that attempts to be a verifiable source so really glad you're doing that yeah um and yeah as the last section general information about the staking pool itself um which then leads to a second spreadsheet which is about the architecture where we can pick up some of the information from the first spreadsheet like the general information about architecture and the pool a few few more and then basically looking at the different kind of

components of the architecture looking whether there are some kind of flaws obvious flaws in there i would say we shouldn't try to make it a security audit because i think that's not the scope of of of the due diligence process to provide some free security audits but we should um aim for finding obvious flaws or some some red flags um all right um yeah and so it covers all the different kind of aspects um general information is taking the information from the other spreadsheet most mostly um second section is software

what kind of beacon node implementation are they running what kind of validator client are they running do they have failover systems um do they use custom solutions slashing protection what are they using a custom solution for that are they using only the client um uh are they just using the the one that is provided within the um the implementation by the teams um yeah are they using smart contracts how's the key generation process how's the deposit flow maybe even at a later stage how's the withdrawal

flow um yeah and then the the the questions all about their their operation where their service located have their own servers do they use cloud service have the internal monitoring tools or state communication how's their migration or update procedure other particular protocols for failure cases um how do they act in in the past are there any kind of notable incidents do they have testing procedures how do they look like

um do they have a running test net where you can as a um as a user try to try the software um first and then stay with them and and this is not a complete um list um this is just what i um put up there right now uh yeah and so what still need to be done is um i started it here first um have some some guiding questions for for each of those points so um so that if we can hand this over to to someone um that's new that they know

okay this section or this yeah this this point is about these different kind of questions at this column we can put up some kind of interim evaluation i think we need also to come up with a scoring um that is yeah maybe even in another column which i don't know explains the the evaluation itself but yeah okay i guess that's the one aspect and then um there was um the idea to

to uh ask the existing user base about their feedback and i just quickly put up a google spreadsheet a google google form we can also just use the ether for this for this but i was thinking about together some more additional information about the user or the the existing user so that we know more about the background and so this is just how long have they been using the stacking pool um where did did they get to know the staking pool

uh yeah so some some i can i can't quickly go over it but i can also put the the link to this uh i already put it in in the discord um i can quickly go over it um so this is basically what was their um engagement so far what they like generally liked about the pool what they didn't like oh i need to put and then they asked whether they have used it on

testnet let's say i used it they asked about their experience on testnet um if they answer yes if they experience some major incidents down times then they will be asked about this one uh and then some some information about their the incidents or

uh and then basically the same for um for the mainnet i skipped that but basically the same questions um then some feedback on the pool's communication um yeah and then that's just some some background um about themselves and how how do we how how do you can reach out them um

um and at the end um we can share a link to the ether where we can then have them put up or provide some feedback about some claims about this staking pool in question and lastly we can ask them to give their eth address for a pull up for example so that's one way how we can reward them or incentivize them to to take part in this um yeah so that that was basically what what was my idea how to to gather some information and

crowdsource all this effort to to have a further due diligence not only looking at the answers um by the pools but rather um trying to to go the other way and try to figure out whether um everything is fine with them yep so uh you know let's all recognize that phil has done an insane amount of work these past couple weeks on this and uh you know we we really appreciate this this further due diligence aspect and how seriously you're taking it um to summarize we're gonna have the community component of feedback that'll come from the survey that will come from some

debates on the ether what we'd really appreciate you know there's a couple avenues we can go with this um the survey for example let's talk about distribution we can actually ask the staking the validated pools to distribute that survey to their uh to their users i actually think that's useful information for them to know so i think uh you know we'll get that information we'll get the access to their distribution channel and we both get those answers i think that's valuable for both parties that's one way um uh superfiz obviously if you wanted to post it within the eatstaker community michael and superfiz uh posting you know the claims from the ether posting the survey

uh to try to drive people to those particular topics or to provide that sort of information uh that would be incredibly helpful as well um the third tenet that wasn't really covered is it's going to be very imperative that we recruit more people to help uh specifically um to help the further due diligence team essentially uh really once all the answers are provided to dig in to verify those answers it's not going to be an easy task it's going to be time consuming and uh you know we don't want any of our members to burn out especially since they're some of them you know the best contributing members on this committee right now so the more we can incentivize people

to join the committee to help on that further due diligence uh side uh so that's once all the information's been submitted really going through and verifying all the claims that's not exactly something that especially on the objective claims that are more technical it's not something that the community can be easily roped into doing like the subjective claims of you know what you do you like do you like the staking pool what do you think about it like those things are pretty easy to get community feedback on but you know uh asking about questions about the setup etc can be a little bit too detailed for most users um and so it's to be very important that we keep very open minds and be very active in trying to recruit people to help

us you know to fill in the rest the further due diligence committee on this action does that all make sense and then once again you know michael and super fizz and yorick and kirk if you guys have members that you think would be very technically minded to kind of help on that there's various incentives so like we could we could have a pro-app for this this uh this very technical kind of due diligence uh role we could um you know i'd be happy to give them a little bit uh as compensation if that if that's necessary nothing too big but i'm not like hundreds of dollars for their continued work like anything like that and i know it's gonna be very difficult because it's obviously not competitive salary for

what they're doing or competitive compensation but really presenting it as you know this is a really good community service obviously your name will be tied to it you're doing a really great thing for the ethereum community ensuring security ensuring that people are notified and understand what's going on um with these validators will be very very imperative uh trying to frame it like that in order to convince them you know we will we are going to need more resources there yes superfiz uh so i i love the big idea of inviting the community to to do a lot of this work i love this decentralized aspect i think poeps have historically been a fantastic motivator for the community um and i really think we can capitalize that on

that and maybe even link some tangible rewards to poeps the only thing that i would steer away from is um offering money for direct work because what what ends up happening at least from the eaststaker perspective is if we offer someone um you know some someone spends you know 30 hours of work on something and they've done incredible work and then we give them super fast i think first i know i waited for it and i've actually bought a new router so hopefully it'll be okay but um giving them some you know a monetary reward that

that feels like pay for 30 hours of work um ends up often having a a counter result because they are invaluable um seem to be the a good motivation and i i feel like we can expand on that um we can also uh do some video promotions where you know we have community calls to to just get the word out there so i i'm seeing a lot of options on the table i really love this brainstorming yeah 100 agreed you don't want to be at a point where somebody looks at the money and goes i just made 10 cents an hour or a buck an hour or whatever it was right that's not what it's about i agree now certainly if we if we run across

someone who uh you know a specific person who that is there who you know money is their currency and they you know it it's right that i'm i'm not opposed to it just as a blanket i think we should we should just leave it off the table for now i i 100 agree i was just throwing out all the incentive mechanisms that i could imagine to try to get people involved yes kirk well let me put one out there it's not in lieu of those but it's just in addition to uh we've been amazed over the 20 years of wikipedia the way it works i mean we explicitly don't uh a lot obviously people can cheat but in general uh the conflict of interest rules the rules about no paid editing

etc work pretty well and uh it's a remarkable and number of people who just altruistically do the job and so don't um to use to use a former term a misstatement of uh the former george bush president i think he used to say don't misunderestimate anyway don't misunderestimate the the value that literally altruism and uh a pseudonym can be i would probably except for the work i've done in the last 15 years i've clearly put far more work in wikipedia than anything else thousands of hours a year i'm sure a thousand plus a year and uh i'm under a suited nobody knows who i am and that's just the way i like it

and yet it's probably one of the more important things i've done in the last 15 years so just don't as i said don't misunderestimate the value of that to use a george bush ism yeah absolutely and i love the idea of really talking about how this really is a community service for the ethereum community i fundamentally do believe that i think people will recognize that too as they critically think you know oh wow someone really does need to go through and look at these different uh sticking pools in order to figure out you know what's actually going on i so i do i 100 agree i think that's that is the right message anyone have so i think we covered so before this just

just to recap we're going to need you know let's all keep a very open mind for experts who want to join superfiz i saw that you have a couple individuals that would like to participate on the technical front that's great what i would suggest is uh superfiz and philip that you guys connect on discord nor just like coordinate about that etc and i'm happy to include them in these uh meetings in the future um the other thing is i'll work on like getting some claims up on the ether etc uh the third one is distributing the the um the the survey which i'm gonna go through everyone that i ask for hey can you update us can you give us those answers i'm gonna say also

we created the survey uh but happy to share you with the answers uh with you know as your users answer this we'll show you the answers so you have this information as well um to try to pair those two things together um to incentivize them to also submit the answers as well as send out the survey um additionally superfiz i hope that you and michael can distribute that survey to uh the community as philip fills in the different names for the different staking pools on that survey um am i missing anything i think that was a the summary from a high level perfect assume we're good there okay um so michael i

i saw your message but uh you know putting evaluations that we've done on the website update it seems like obviously this week was pretty hectic uh on your end so um not much progress there is that correct yeah that's correct uh i will have up early next week though for sure yeah and you know we're all guilty too because i've only seen two videos from people submitting i have you if you only that's that's to my knowledge correct right only two videos have been submitted i believe so we're all guilty here we got we gotta help michael out we got to make those videos and if you look at my video it's terrible it's awful so i promise you it's not going to be worse than the very very low standard i set in my video

uh and so uh you know if that's if that's the impediment here please uh don't worry about that and make that 15 20 second video uh michael's posted the questions you need to answer multiple times um a couple people have submitted um and please do not forget to do that so it'll ease the process of uploading those videos online from michael awesome uh jake from steak pool is looking to join i'm gonna hand it over to superfiz at this point yeah hey um so that's jk from steak.fish he is uh they're a pool operator

they uh my my best understanding of their pool operation is they stake full nodes um so you send them 32 ether they take a 0.1 ether fee and stake i think for a year i'm not here to describe his pool model but he has he's been a positive contributor on the reddit on the reddits um he's been a positive contributor on eath staker and uh he and i have had some discussions about um pool transparency and maintaining high standards and so i i have this little dichotomy i don't know if it's a dichotomy maybe

it's a conflicting interest between um speaking with someone who seems to be very interested in getting staking right for the community and then also being um the operator of a large pool so uh the thing that i'm bringing is we're looking for people who can make these kind of assessments and we recognize that many of these people have a conflict of interest uh so do we want to open up the doors and invite uh jk to participate with us he has expressed some interest um and or or is that is that a a bridge too far i guess is it does it

put us at risk of being labeled a shill for uh a specific company or or should we maybe wait until we've been able to invite um representatives from several polls i i'm i do not know the answer but i do think it's worthy of a discussion yep colin yeah hey everyone i have some have some thoughts on this um i have bad service so let me know if you can't hear me uh can you hear me okay yes yeah okay cool um so just on steak fishing jk in general one i think uh i've been collaborating with steak fish on a few different networks um for probably almost about for two

years now um have kind of watched and seen them come up and watch the way that they approach the industry they put out good content they build open source tooling not just for themselves you know for example they built a a bulk deposit tool for eth2 uh that they open source so um they've done a lot of great stuff for the youtube community they've also taken you know the eth2 calculator that i built and made a graphical you know representation of it on their website to help people better understand the economics they've done great videos for eth2 and um obviously i don't know if you guys know the history uh i think we just lost it colin

king um so they've been involved with ethereum for a really long time and they've done a great job with with eth2 and and the way that they approach other networks um you know i'm i am uh supportive of i will agree that with superfiz that if we do let in people from staking providers you know who are staking providers uh i think we should bring them in a cohort uh if you will you know bring in three or four at the same time one of the proposals that i was going to make is felix who works for a validator uh of course one who is uh part of lido and then may potentially have their own individual uh set up for you know chunks of 32 eth um

he is someone who would most definitely be able to add value to this discussion as well on the technical front uh but also just on the front of you know what what is going on i think it's valuable to have people who are operating in pools i do think it's smart to kind of bring them in in chunks right so maybe you know we think about three or four different pools who one come to us with interest or two we go to them with interest and say like hey look we think you'd be a you know a good like part of this community to bring in and help iron out this process um so just to highlight jk is a great dude been working with him for like a while steak fish is a great company

uh they're dedicated to eat too they put out open source tooling instead of being selfish with it which i think is you know an amazing pre-req for it um and if we decide to bring operators in i don't think it's a bad thing um you know but we should maybe bring them all in you know at the same time if you will um at the end of the day like you know distributed networks are are meant for each other to police each other if you will you know um that's kind of the design of e2 with people being able to earn a reward for whistleblowing i i think that this is a very similar construct um on like the human level um so i you know if we you know were to put it to a vote or whatever i would definitely vote that bringing in

uh pool operators uh or validators as a service in some capacity uh would be really healthy for us especially the ones that have done and built open source tools you know for eth2 to become a reality yeah so i 100 agree with what column frankly more technical resources more people who can actually go through and participate in that further due diligence process to help phil and i think the people coming from these staking pools will be excellent people to do that um i i totally agree that ideally we get you know we get them in batches um i also think that if one or two joins or three or four joins i think the

others will want to join as well because they're gonna see holy cows you know our competitors are on this rating agency or you know it's not a rating agency but you know what i'm saying uh we will also want to be a part of that to make sure that our voices are also heard which then gives more resources to fill so uh i think that is a uh i think it's a very good move so i'm all for and if anyone disagrees you know we're all for colin superfiz saying yes please come uh join us at this meeting and then i'll add them to this meeting and then linking them with phil to participate in the further due

diligence process yes kirk i didn't hear anybody else say something so i'll do it sorry i got it noise on elsewhere there we go um can you hear me yes all i was going to say is that i think that the idea of batching is a very good one i hadn't thought of it but i agree completely with colin and i hope somebody else will say something but the idea of if we're going to bring one in i see superficial concern about what that implies but if you bring a batch in and especially if you articulate a uh a a guiding principle a fundamental principle and i like the way collins said it uh we're in a kind of community where the nature of youth too

is we stake one another uh i mean or we we help report the bad actors of one another that's the nature of the game and that seems to be a a rather interesting way to just say it um the people making it you know a contribution to the community in a positive way are also doing it with their eyes on the community and saying there's some questions over here and and i'm going to take the head of flagging that so i liked it so i think we got to do the principle and the articulate the principle and bring them in batches sorry for all the words to get a small concept out but colin was right on super fizz if we're gonna go with a batch concept let's um

let's not let it become uh an eternal delay because these kinds of things this could end up being a year like we're trying to find three and we don't have three let's set a time limit on it uh perhaps two weeks from this call and within that time we solicit and we listen um so i hope that there are other operators who are observing this and following what we're doing um and so let's open up the invitation to them and let's also reach out to um the providers that you know we think would be a good compliment so the let's do the batching but let's set a a deadline on it so that it doesn't go out

um we we could potentially end up you know going because we're waiting for a cohort uh so let's uh maybe the hybrid approach might be a good idea two weeks does that sound good to everyone get a bad first batch i think that's good i mean i i know that you know the guys from course one are interested steak fish is interested um another technical individual um who actually uh works with me at activate um you know where there is a validator

you know product um inside of consensus but uh you know we are not that we are a you know a uh a marketplace for other you know service providers uh he actually built the e2 launch pad he's interested uh he's very technical in nature and you know is actually managing and updating the launch pad on a daily basis um so you know we have we have three in that category um and i know that the stakeout u.s team would be interested as well um and uh staking facilities um so you know there's you know three to five already i i i think by the end of next week super fizz let's just uh chat about it on discord i can give you my short list of people that i know have kind of

shown interest and then you can you know give me your short list as well we can put a list together for the team and kind of show everyone and then i can you know go with those that um that i know are interested and i think we can get it done in a week and i think you know three you know between three and five is is probably uh the best way to start there's already three that are kind of you know already chomping at the bit that want to get involved and um i think there are two others that um that would be very happy to join as well yeah one week would be even better because then we can get them in the process and help them help them fill as well at a faster rate uh awesome any other questions comments concerns

on this like recruiting uh aspect if not then new time for meeting is the next question um normal time doesn't uh no longer works for me and i also noticed that yorick doesn't typically work for as well and so what i'd suggest is we find an alternative time how do people feel about this time yes i would say there is a bias because those who can't attend this meeting might as well not attend

the next meeting it's a great point it's a great point um do you want me do you want us to post about it do you want us to do it for now this time and then we'll ask others you know if this time doesn't work why doesn't it work and what are the well really i don't even need to know why what what are some alternative times we can go through that exercise again i mean there there are some of us you know who are gmt plus one gmt plus two um i mean for me personally over the next few months i will be gmt plus two um phil i think you're in germany i believe or you know somewhere somewhere in europe as well um you know it is a friday evening

uh you know and this is between eight like eight and nine pm um so i would say that you know for friday evenings as this group gets more diversified for example uh felix if he joins he's in berlin uh jk um he lives in seoul um so you know like the time zones as we open it up to the validators of the participants is going to start getting a bit wild um so you know i think making a decision on this today is is tough but you know having it on a friday at this time for those of us who are not in the u.s you know it is uh it is a friday evening at this point um and we will have more european and asian representatives joining um the group in the near future

all right so maybe we move this back to ensure that it's not on a friday evening uh maybe we do you know i think how about 11 a.m well it's 11 a.m mountain times that'd be one one uh p.m eastern on um on thursday instead so just move one day back what do you think about that calling is that is that still too late do you want me to move it further earlier uh earlier it becomes difficult at least on mine yeah yeah i mean i i think this this time for at least me personal and i'm i'm super flexible i'm you know when in my time zone i'm mainly working on us hours anyways you know so

i am working through the evenings until midnight every night um you know but just i would say this late on a friday for european participants um it is it is getting a bit late um so whether it's a wednesday or a thursday you know i would you know raise my hand and vote for this time is cool but but maybe not on a friday perfect then uh you know i'll move the meeting to this time on thursday next week we'll see how that goes um anyone have other questions comments on the scheduling issue i i don't want to belabor the point i don't want to complicate anything i

wonder if if wednesday's worked um or if there was a reason that wednesday's did not work i can do when i can do wednesday as i can do wednesday as long as it's this time which is obviously later than our normal time or you know it's like i think it's a couple hours later than when we normally do it i i think we probably also need to go once we onboard um other representatives just do an open survey to find out available hours but right now we're just trying to get through a little while agreed i'm gonna move this to wednesday then same time as we're having it now

but wednesday is that good for everyone that's good perfect awesome all right other items that people want to bring up weren't covered do we have any um update on the pool that was slash but um said they were not slashed that would be if anyone knows about it i think superfiz would know about that i i don't know enough to comment authoritatively i i only know rumors i don't know information if that's fair and i'm not

comfortable um sharing that as if it was valid information all right so no update there york yes oh i thought you were trying to say something i'm sorry cause you unbeated my bad that was my bad didn't mean to put you on spot right there um all right unless there's any other items i said we would yearn for just just one more comment um i also posted it in on on discord um i discovered in an issue in the block staking deposit

um flow and i disclosed them um to them so they are aware of them their response was um yeah rather quickly i don't know whether they have fixed it so far i need to um follow up with them but yeah yeah i think it's quite clear that phil gets mvp for the past two weeks for sure for sure awesome so thanks for doing that phil uh you know i think that's that isn't and you know you're embodying what the committee's really all about i i really do believe that um

any other comments questions anything else before we adjourn terrific so uh i'll see you guys next week in in the discord thank you cheers everyone have a good weekend