EDDC Meeting #17

Transcript

all right sorry jk repeat a little bit of what you said i'm sorry about that yeah yeah sure i'm trying to provide an update right now on um on the answers that uh we've gotten for further due diligence um so i've sent out the further due diligence forms to i think five six additional pools that i know are pretty um pretty decent hitters at this point um in terms of stake power and so i've reached out to them if you have gotten back already but i'm still waiting for others to reach back uh get back to me um so overall you'll see on the trello board that we're tracking keeping track of these stuff um i've moved uh the pools that have answered fully onto um on to the next

column where we could start evaluating them further there are still ones that are still laggards i need to reach out to them i'm going to do that touch base with them over the course of uh i mean i guess tomorrow today and tomorrow um i will need some help though on um two pools that i'm struggling on uh how to approach one is bitcoin swiss and the other is liquid steak i don't know who reached out to him previously but it'd be good to get some help on on those too reach out to those two awesome awesome sweet i'll uh i'll try finding you who got reached out it might be a little difficult um the good news is we have those initial

answers from liquid stake at the very least uh they are on this sheet for uh the ones that have responded so far which is good um let me just add one more thing and then also i haven't reached out to any exchanges yet um so you know without a doubt kraken uh finance um and i guess soon coinbase are all and also i guess who'll be cool they're they're all offering it during 2.0 uh staking services so that's also still on my list of to-do gotcha awesome uh michael do you want to give us a quick update on the website yes uh let me do i have rights to screen share oh you're right i always do

this don't i hold up all right your host okay solid let me here we go okay cool so this is uh what i would consider sort of the last uh framework update before pushing to production and uh i do have a couple questions uh regarding this so uh just real quick to get this on the recording because i

don't know if it was on there last uh we did a couple meetings ago update this section from a single rating to a more granular rating based off of the initial evaluations per staking pool and just real quick i want to highlight i did add for sort of stickiness and overall marketing purposes our calendar i'm still working on putting our official meetings in here but this is actually our google calendar feed just sort of uh branded to the eddc site and then sort of polished up

the uh the about us section here so we'll we'll add additional sort of marketing features but i just wanted to kind of let it be known that we're starting to carve those out now since we're starting to tie up the beef here the heart of obviously what we're trying to do which are the evaluations and that sort of transitions into my question here and let me bring up one of the evaluations uh just so i'm aware can you actually see is it visible the zoom task bar in the middle of the screen the zoom task bar in the middle or is that just present for like a local

thing i just want to make sure it's not interrupting the share i don't see the zoom task bar does anyone else see it no we're good it feels so good we're good cool so uh the main question i've got here uh just actually real quick so i did implement the um sort of accordion style here to make the um q a section a little bit more user-friendly instead of just the wall of text then we have our placeholder for the uh just like consolidated this is what we think of the staking pool the good the bad and then our overall rating based off the template so this is live now i'm ready to publish

you know but in principle here but what i want to discuss here and get some insight on is this top so i know i initially during the mockup presentation there were some comments made but i apologize i i didn't write those down so if we could go over that again that'd be great in terms of what we want to see and prioritize for this top header and then we can kind of go from there and these are just placeholders but i want i think there should be it doesn't have to be like this is what i'm pulling from beacon chain for like their you know effectiveness rating or this could be anything it's just more of what would be valuable

to us to kind of showcase right off the bat i just think the name and maybe a link to the website yep i agree okay no ratings no like quick facts just staking pool name and link to their drug site yep though i i like the um [Music] to have to have some some place where we can say whether everything is working fine right now with them so i don't know this this quick overview whether

everything is fine-ish is somewhat cool so this rating 99 i guess this indicates the effectiveness that the issue with rating 99 i just don't is that 99 uptime is that is that what that is i i you know it's gonna be that's gonna be very difficult to pull off uh real time i think agree well true if we don't know the validators associated with the builders with the stinging pool yeah i mean we have a graffiti i think rocket pool might be also easy to identify but all like otherwise like it's going to be

very rare true i think would there be value good oh i was just gonna say i think i think one of the heuristics we raised early on was you know if the pool has gone six months and everything is running smoothly like as in there's no slashings or other sort of major negative events that's like a good benchmark so maybe we use that or some variation where we say like has there been any sort of a negative like a major downtime or a slashing event in the past six months and if no then everything is going basically okay right like we're probably not gonna be able to get like the

attestation effectiveness or anything like that but that's i think what could substitute maybe yep i would agree that sounds familiar now that you're bringing it up as well uh just real quick is there would there be value in instead of having like a rating per se to have just a general status so like a you know live down or otherwise just saying like if there is a slashing or some sort of network thing uh specific to a pool that they can sort of funnel here for uh you know a post triage or just just just a quick update you know is it down

or is it any type of situation uh what are the thoughts of that i love the idea but it requires constant maintenance yeah so if you're going to position yourself as that kind of oracle then you really have to have the tooling in place to be an accurate oracle because the first time you're wrong you are no longer valid yep that makes sense okay cool then we'll just got it we'll keep we'll cut that functionality i think you're right that's outside the scope of what we're trying to do here and we'll just keep it to the evaluations so just real quick then uh name website the overall evaluation the

edit to the uh specific sticking pool there are answers to the q a and then our summary are we good on this section then overall as a is a concept i think we were we wanted to take away the good bad right uh and and the numerical rating so maybe like uh strengths and then aries improvements or it doesn't even need to be necessary to happen well or it could just be what we had on the first page right and just repasted here and generally someone brought up um this

last time i like this batch idea to show some some kind of what is the strength of the staking pool what is really doing well um because a lot of these architectures make trade-offs and this this kind of shows more the user what is that what is the target audience maybe so could we go this direction and say uh maybe change the verbiage from good to bad to strength and weakness and then maybe replace the you know green rating here section with

a changed because then like otherwise maybe they updated this that or the other thing yeah and then below that we we further highlight the overall rating we give them the the granular x mount green x amount yellow exponent red yeah is that and i know it seems like it's like what what makes the difference even instead of weakness i would rather be areas for improvement and i know that i might be being a little bit of a a marketing person here about that but i i think that is a little bit uh you know more collaborative approach versus weekend i think you're you're

underestimating the importance of that because we really do want to be welcoming to pools and if we if we use language that vilifies them or makes them seem incompetent then they're not going to want to have anything to do with us in fact they're going to distance themselves from us so i that language while you minimize it it is very important that we get it right yeah i would i would maybe suggest like instead of having two columns like good and bad or advantage disadvantage just have one called key considerations and we can just present sort of like what you should be thinking about if you're considering a certain pool and people can decide whether it's like good or bad for them

yeah i like that i i think that would be great i'm done with that okay i'm still okay with dividing them um and i'll go with majority i am okay with dividing them i just want to be careful that the wording is not insulting yeah i would agree okay then uh that's actually all i have on my end awesome the first page looked great by the way with the updates with that the rating boxes uh that looked really strong all right um since we're having separate further due diligence meetings now i know for a fact we don't have anything

to present to the table from the further due diligence meaning and i also want to get into the ratings of uh see if we can get a couple of these ratings done um as quick you know with the rest of the time so phil are you okay with that we just go straight into ratings yeah that sounds good awesome i mean i mean other than we had a meeting last week where we assigned um responsible persons for each of the questions in the spreadsheet there's nothing to report further than that i guess and yeah we're gonna have another meeting for the further due diligence and then we'll come back with uh any changes that we suggest based on the research that we do awesome so everyone i posted in the

general channel at 11 03 pm the google doc or the google sheets that has the latest answers from the staking pools so if everyone can pull that up or i can even get really crazy here and share my screen okay perfect i was just gonna ask if you do that doing two seconds all right oh you you gotta share your screen michael like or you gotta enable share screen now that you're the host okay yep uh sending it over one second

nice nice two seconds awesome can everyone see i'm assuming that's a yes yeah it looks good for me perfect all right so uh latest ones that we

got i believe starts with uh steak wise no we have steak wise we actually already went over steak we just got them to report it twice so it's really uh liquid steak uh is a new one for us that we should evaluate all right so give me two seconds um are these answers that were originally submitted but it was just not merged onto this sheet one more time oh um so like these aren't new answers right these are just answers that weren't um merged into this sheet uh these are relatively new answers we

haven't gone over these uh these answers yet they're not like brand new we were waiting for um so lido the latest one came in 218 but effectively in the month of january and february these are new answers right and we were waiting for you to come in before we evaluated them uh and whoever has edit access i'm asking to be uh edited axis actually let me try this it's me and i didn't know it i thought my version was the um

i might have been lodging the wrong email account so let me see if this this is uh oh i just got a request to access on these two so i i do have access to it give me just a moment i don't know whether we want to edit this one we're good we're good oh shouldn't we copy it over to the to the uh colored one yes we should we should but for the sake of time uh i will copy it over to the colored ones so we have that ready for the further due diligence process but since we just have this one pulled up right now i just think we should just like crank it out okay just which just wanted to make sure that we don't mess up this spreadsheet and in terms of when google

forum uses this oh because this is the actual so i am available i can i could rip that right now and throw it over to the other document and i can do the screen share while madison leads the call if that's okay we can do that so give me just a moment to find it's been a minute since we've worked on this apparently yeah uh give me let me stop and then i'll get it pulled up because i know where it two is oh it's because maybe it's shared it's

an eaststaker document not a super fizz document that's why i'm slow no not the template no that's the i thought i could be very quick so let me close my tabs and i can i'm gonna make you host them so you can share close other tabs i do need to open one other tab and you shared that link click on that okay i'm going to go ahead and share now

and it's gonna be that's on a f firefox there we go is that correct this is the correct uh yeah i have the other here raw one yup yup we're good okay so i'm gonna scroll down here everything after rocket pools are actually staking facilities submitted twice so really we only have three to go over i believe okay

let's see if i can and also the the order of the uh questions is a different one i guess in this colored one oh dear really i think so i do not recall changing that but um if it is we can correct it i think the columns are collapsed in the colored one oh yeah it may be just that the columns are collapsed but it's still um unhide i don't even know how to uncollapse them

at a real quick face i know i'm bad for doing it but i use excel more than i use google sheets there should be an unhide here oh it's really just because okay we're not going to get hung up on this so [Music] let's just continue on if as long as they're in the right place yeah we'll we can we can figure out the exact yeah now we're not gonna have an issue editing them right so this is fun all right all right so uh we're gonna start

with uh liquid steak all right so uh which sticking pool that would be green uh what country oh i'm going over the wrong questions in the wrong order aren't i okay this is fine ah i see i see that the issue now um this is fine no it actually copy pasted correctly it's it's totally fine because how much control do you have over user's funds with custody withdraw keys i believe that's what we asked right

that answered the question that we asked yep we're good and so actually we need to start with b um i i was i just didn't click the right place but i did unhide those and so it's quite country of origin is first automatic green uh are you confident we've been putting all these in yellows so we custody the question here is how much control do you have over users funds do you hold zero one or two keys we custody withdraw keys our sticking service providers

uh currently bison figment and consensus names the validator keys our custodian will and new year custody voluntary exit messages so when you're custodian withdrawal keys that has historically been a um a red flag i agree let's double check that we're consistent that's so important okay can we nod if i'm doing this if i'm

making this a red one you're making i don't think we've seen one yet that has said that they have withdrawal keys have we met from this well we have um one i guess right isn't bitcoin swiss having two and it is green yeah that should be red bitcoin swiss i know is custodial whoa don't change it right now don't change it right now i i don't know how we will get a caught in in that last one because it might have been that we are fine as long as they're saying that they're holding two keys and not hiding it somewhere so this it's a good test we know that's wrong now

let's see if it comes up in the further due diligence this exact point that was made let's not change it now let's wait for the process to play out and then we can come we also we should include better notes and when i've done it with some of them they others are missing what the criteria is i tried to include that on some of them we should update that as we go so that we're not just being relative but that we have a standard as well yes i completely agree does anyone know what they mean by our custodian well in the new year custody voluntary exit messages like no i don't understand that i don't understand what that means okay all right move on nevermind perfect

uh so do you have any insurance in case funds are lost our bls keys are generated by and stored in a fully insured custodian we have done our agility to protect our customer funds for performing an additional independent audit of generated withdrawal credentials conducted by a leading digital security firm to validate all the withdrawal credentials generated by the custodian agent a custodian against signatures provided for each i don't know if that was a real sentence or not uh this validation used two of the leading javascript libraries in the ethereum ecosystem for bls keys to ensure proper formation

at the custodian i'll have to read through it again personally i'm not going to read it out loud though well i want to be fair to recognize they're obviously not english language first so i i don't want us to consider that as a negative like let's just do our best to make good sense of it that makes sense i didn't know that that makes sense i would still put this as a

red right the the the keys are and at a custodian the custodian is exploited the keys are fine but if there's like um a slashing for an example there's no insurance that protects the uh customers that's my interpretation people agree with that yeah that's how i would interpret it i mean i would need to get clarification on what it means that the keys are at a fully insured custodian like to me that doesn't imply that the user's funds are all covered by the insurance so i don't know i would

need more information to say other anything other than red i guess um perhaps it means like for example like the custodian that it's being um that they're using is fully insured maybe that's what it means so then that jk yeah go ahead sorry i didn't hear it no i that's how i interpret it as well i agree watch it yep yep and and whether that's actually a rat or maybe something good depends on what their insurance covers i mean we went by uh previous evaluations regarding you know it's about the user's funds being insured in the case of

slashings true i mean might as well be that their insurance also covers that we don't know just says that if we're being relative uh everyone okay i was just saying this first one that says no we don't hold funds uh we don't have insurance and they're yellow but these are don't hold insurance and they're red we just need to i just want to make sure we're consistent relative to the other responses and obviously we need to revisit some i believe after we finish this horizontal

we should do a vertical for each question um just after we finish this round and maybe not tonight but we should do a relative scaling not just a uh yeah did i thought did we save it down somewhere because we did have a relative scaling right uh why i what do you mean we did have a relative scale like we did have for many of these we have comments that say this is how we're going to rate it yeah um and they're mostly over here because that's when i started uh but i do think that not only should we view every company

independently but we should view every question independently so when we go through them we're not looking at the company but we're saying everyone who says no is red everyone who says maybe is is yellow and everyone who says yes is green or something just in general so that we're being fair in a matrix style yeah i get what you're saying i get what you're saying so you want to continue on this horizontal and then go back to the verticals i i mean i i don't my my intention is to be an observer not a not a leader in this um but i do think that we have set a good and strong precedent for starting something and finishing it which is one of my weaknesses so

all right so so we'll continue on and then you know make maybe at like a future meeting exactly as you said we'll go through the verticals because i think that's a good idea um what is your company's history in the cryptocurrency space liquid stake is a new company formed to provide liquidity to stakers its members are all long-standing members of the ethereum ecosystem ideally i would have liked to have a little bit more details um i don't know how else you guys feel mean

i think in the next question they do a pretty good job of highlighting their their team members bios um and i like i recognize a couple of the names on there so maybe we can if you want we could put it as a yellow for now and then maybe just in further due diligence look up a bit more of these guys backgrounds and just say hey we feel good about this team even though it's a new project or or keep it yellow so i don't know it's also pretty similar to the answer by stakewise which also more or less is a new company but they have experience in the cryptocurrency space yeah i agree based on that second answer

because i hadn't learned the professional the team members backgrounds i would say we put this at screen and based on the precedent of the how we evaluated the other ones yeah sounds good uh who are your team members and what are their academic professional backgrounds um i would put this as a green i recognize these names if you are using smart contracts have they been audited by whom our users choose which staking provider they want to use currently bison consensus and figment other staking providers will be integrated over time

i would put that as a red does someone else understand that model more if this is the staking provider then why are they choosing other staking providers i don't i'm just not understanding i'm gonna should i try interpreting it uh um but um but yeah this is an interpretation so i i i i'm like we definitely should get more clarification but from my understanding like um it's sort of like some of the exchanges where they would not be physically running the validators they would outsource that to an actual validated runner in this case in liquid stakes case those are bison

consensus of pigment we're actually running the balancers and liquid steak is building on top of them i don't know if they have yeah go ahead super fans i i assume they're doing something like issuing a staking token is that kind of what we'd assume in that case there is no token okay for liquids yeah for liquid sake my understanding is their purpose is to let you lend based on the tokens that you stake um yeah so uh yeah that's that's also what i'm getting from the website but i haven't looked into it you just you can borrow from your staked ether usdc they were actually on an episode of bankless

like three four months ago so i don't really remember the details but if you guys are interested it's like an hour long and they explain how this works but i think that interpretation is correct awesome so i i would put that as a red though still does even if they're aggregating or even if they're building on top of there would be some auditing that would need to be done correct well yeah actually they are not saying whether they're using they are not answering the question are they they're not saying whether they're using smart contracts or not correct it could literally just be integrated without smart contracts

really so yeah we need more details on whether they actually do use smart contracts to direct the user's funds my guess is they won't because if it's custody and then doing another smart contract i think sort of defeats the purpose of using a custodian but yeah awesome okay so describe your staking setup do you have your own servers if no which hosting providers are you using which clients are using how many nodes are using do you have some sort of redundancy built in diagnosis safety is used in a portion of the flow when users deposit their heat for staking

otherwise we are not currently using a batch deployment smart contract for the deposit transactions to me this one actually answers the previous question more than answers this question i would put this as red so madison is your interpretation

um sorry go ahead phil uh yeah sorry to interrupt you um i think this is the point where the order is mixed up because in the original spreadsheet this is um the answer to these if if you're using smart contracts oh that's right because if we look here we see uh am i muted no if we look down here we see they are discussing an audit in the other question so are these two answers just flipped are these two columns just flipped yes i believe that's correct thank you phil thank you phil all right sweet um they are not flipped because the other one is describe your staking

no i i think i i think they are flipped because it by the i think they could only be flipped because the last two definitely answer the last two questions so the our users choose choose blah blah blah is for the question describe your staking setup yes which is right here okay yeah then there yeah all right okay all right so the flipped oh man we got a genius over here flipping the columns around for all them is that what you're doing superfiz trying wow i wouldn't i wouldn't uh trust my work

yeah so i need to delete that first [Laughter] delete everything might be easier to copy from the original one and paste it in one by one i'll tell you what this committee has a for dedication without a doubt but boy i would say organizationally we run it some issues with the uh the excel sheets and whatnot okay so we should now go back and re

review column h just to be fair agree if you're using smart contracts have they been audited by whom gnosis safe is used in a portion of the flow when users deposit their earth for staking otherwise we are not using a batch deployment smart contract for the deposit contract transactions what do you guys think the part that concerns me is that gnosis

safe is used in the portion of the flow i don't know if that implies there are other smart contracts involved which would mean that it might require auditing regardless how of how little uh you might have coded up um but the nose safe itself yeah i know is pretty well you know used widely used so there's no concern about that but um it's just that language that just sort of concerns me a bit yeah i would interpret the language as suggesting at least that they're only using gnosis safe but i would ask clarifying questions around that because it's not like it sounds like you're just depositing into a no safe account as the user and then they're uh have some sort of multi-stick

to release it and that that's all fine like i have no problem with any of that yeah i would interpret uh interpret it the same way as james so i would i'd say red for now potentially changes what do you guys think about that awesome uh next question describe your staking setup do you have your own servers know which hosting provider are you using which clients are using how many nodes are using give some sort of redundancy built in our users choose to choose which staking provider they want to use currently bison consensus and figment other staking providers will be integrated over time i would honestly put this as a

non-rating like i wouldn't even know if we would rate this right unless we want to in rate the staking providers that they're aggregating on behalf of their users and that's that's what i thought because some of these well the ones that i recognize are black box um as in they don't release details of anything about their sticking setup which while they may consider it safe if it's not community vetted then then maybe we keep it red if you know that the other ones are black box and they're included in there then it should be read we agreed there awesome

uh i believe this is uh who's invested in your business is there venture capital is there a token if there is a token what does it use for there is no token unfortunately it's not uh quite a a real answer i would put this as red how much are you charging for your staking services liquid state charges clients 10 to 11 percent of their staking rewards depending on which validator staking provider they choose the fee

to paid the liquid stake includes all validator sticking fees and remains constant i this is we were just trying can they successfully operate as a business i think the answer would be yes awesome all right let's see if we can get through uh before we do this give me one moment i'd like to flip those before we get to them it's a good move my

and let me turn wrap on for that and then we'll be ready i'm ready when you wear medicine awesome so uh we've already done staking facilities and so we'll skip that one okay that was the one that i just flipped the answers for so let me do that same thing for course one yeah thanks for doing this super fist

i just hope i do it right hopefully this doesn't mess up the google form we're not related to the google form at all okay yeah perfect we took your advice and that's what got us here phil no it was it was a good advice it was definitely correct your leg a little bit i'm pulling your leg a little bit it was the right advice all right what country is your business based out of switzerland green are you confident that you are here

you know we've been doing yellow for all this so it's automatic all right how much control do you have over user sponge do you hold zero one or two keys one validator keys two withdrawal keys key shared via threshold sig scheme on lido we it would be wise of us to take just a minute to enter a comment here with how we are how we're responding to this um i think we do have a general understanding of our float but it would be good to just comment it i agree i think green is having no control over

users funds right yes i think yellow would be maybe they control the validator key or the signing key but don't have the withdrawal key would you guys agree i don't know that's not consistent with what we used to rate with do you remember what we used to rate with i mean uh we have at least um for steak fish we only hold these signing keys

which would fall under yellow in the in the between but so i don't know what the original color code was but i am pretty sure it was something along the lines that um if they're disclosing what piece they're holding then it is green if they're not disclosing it it's red and something i don't know i i disagree it's i think it's more than a disclosure or non-disclosure because holding withdrawal keys is is part of due diligence i do not believe it's safe for someone else to hold you withdrawal

keys so part of due diligence means to me more than just did they answer the question it is is the question set is the answer satisfactory to our goals so for example if liquid stake holds withdrawal keys um and the others hold signing keys and staker holds a bls or a threshold or a distributed key i would say that green is no control yellow is distributed control and red is complete control oh it was just referring to what what we might have used as a color code because at least that's what would explain the current existing

one um i'm fine with your suggestion i say we proceed with superfici's suggestion and make the changes uh based on these suggestions to the prior answers well i i wanted to be be fair i i don't i'm not trying to railroad anything i want i was trying to interpret the previous responses because we did think through those carefully at the time true but then um if that would have been the color code that we used then i don't know steak fish seems to be or more in the yellow one so just just as an example i don't know

and same with steak wise bro by the way they were even potentially uh be red but i'm okay with changing this framework we've updated our framework and we agree that this updated version is a more accurate version of what we're trying to evaluate i i do think it's okay madison i'm going to take your lead and uh follow whatever suggestion you you tell me to put in here and we'll go from there i say that red being withdrawal uh and then we update the answers uh the previous answers that we had evaluated uh based on this new framework or no answer

and i'll tell you what super fizz now that we have that there and it's saved here i i can go through and change those answers uh afterwards you don't have to go through and do that well i have felt strongly that it should be public whenever we make those changes okay then if you would like to wait now that's fine i was just thinking about like a work distribution perspective i didn't want to overburden you but yeah if you want to change them now that makes sense uh even if it takes 10 minutes in a meeting i think we should add it to the to-do list i do not think it's fair to stop in the middle of course one because we've given everyone else a consistent flow um and we so we don't want to short sell their evaluation um but it should maybe be the next thing

that we do because we're working on that whole begin something and finish it which yeah and it was it's difficult yep all right so uh how much control do you have over user's funds do you have hold zero one keys one valentine key two with withdrawal keys shared via threshold sync scheme on lido that would be a red under this framework wouldn't be a yellow all right because well who do who holds the the withdrawal key is it between the user and the platform it's um they have they should have the um the key holders i think um

on their website i could like since i'm involved with flight i do have some knowledge on that yep and there are about six six key holders in the bls uh threshold signature right have to check back again yeah it's enough it's enough that i'm comfortable saying it's a distributed key management okay so it's it's still trusted but it's trusted and distributed um which is a step lower than trustless but still better than one holder agree all right so mark that is yellow i do have any insurance in case funds are lost

uh no we've been marking these as red for consistency purposes uh what is your company's history in the cryptocurrency space genesis cosmos vault validator operating proof of stake in other blockchain node infrastructure um example chain link oracle since early 2018 securing 200 million dollars in assets across over 15 networks i would put that as a green sort of pull up that linkedin uh well there goes my name yeah um

you don't need to pull it up if you just entered what was it it would need to be pulled up under a different account i don't i don't log into do you want to post it and send it to me and post it in the chat so i can pull it up super fizz just real quick uh i dropped the feed before that happened uh so i'll just edit this out then recording so you're not doxed awesome thank you and i did put that in the uh i will stop

share i put that in the um zoom uh chat yep madison got it it so it just pulls up what it pulls up it just pulls up a list of their team members it doesn't even pull up like the individual uh so um as an example like uh i'm i'm sure some of you guys are aware of epicenter the podcast yes like like brian from epicenter is basically like uh the founder of uh of course one oh interesting i'm a fan of this program yeah so uh hopefully that that helps

provide the context on the team members here can i uh he says his name at the beginning of every episode i'm brian what's his last name i want to say it's like crane or something but yep yep what's his first name brian brian it's not on linkedin these guys have legit experiences though i'm looking at their background you know they've worked on other blockchains but senior engineer at solana or

ing i'd feel comfortable giving them a green yeah brian and mayor both are are were the co-founders of course one so both who have been doing epicenter for ages and ages one of my long-term favorites they also have reputation at stake not only that that they have um their background knowledge but also reputation at stake all right so i'm gonna share this link again it makes it a little more complica like i know that they're providing a direct resource but it makes a little

more difficult when we have to open up the so they have been audited apparently um if someone wants to open up that little finance life audits on github and see yeah i'll open that up oh it's like items i mean they're just they're a lighter provider yes that's correct so lido's just a consortium and it's i guess steak fish right jk is a part of the lido consortium but you also do independent staking right yes that is correct so under lido there's five providers right now that's uh steak fish staking facilities course one service one and then p2p so that so that's why staking facility and course one answers might

overlap somewhat i would put this as uh they have been audited by the way the audits five are classified as medium risk eight are classified as low risk fiber classified as informational i would put that as green how many audits have they had completed they've had two audits completed they've had a sigma prime security assessment and uh december of last year and they had a quant stamp audit okay very good they had no high risk issues in the quant stamp audit they had no high risk issues across any of the audits all right describe your staking setup do

you have your own servers if you know which hosting provider are using which clients are using how many nodes you're using you have some sort of redundancy built in etc our infrastructure is designed to be secure highly available and redundant based upon a high availability kubernetes cluster our infrastructure spans five data centers and two european countries and two distinct vendors and as such is tolerant of failure of a complete data center or vendor or vendor we have a team of dedicated and experienced platform engineers previously employed by organizations including facebook and the uk government government bring a wealth of experience in developing and operating sophisticated infrastructure scaling key management

disaster recovery monitoring and alerting solutions so uh it's not black box but it is a data center yellow who is invested in your business is there venture capital is there a dope token bootstrapped by founders no cap outside capital aside from a few minor angels these founders have been around in crypto for a while correct yeah so we can assume that they're well funded

yep how much are you charging for your staking services five to 15 commission rate liar charges 10 percent on these two staking awards fifty percent of which go to an insurance 150 percent go to node operators at the time of running i would put this as green that's an interesting model i was not aware of that let me do some formatting here we'll save the last one for next week okay oh that would be an interesting one what kind of insurance fund are they referring to because the

previous question about the insurance they answered with no yeah so i think next week right madison's like i'm too excited don't get too excited phil try to sneak it in just do a cliffhanger oh man all right do you want to go by those answers i'm happy to stay on super fizz to go buy those answers category by category if you want to get that done in one meeting let's hold a quick vote i'll abstain do we do we want to go

through those answers right now or did the columns in order to correct the column answer question the answers and and adapt the new framework to those previous answers or do we want to table that for next week all those in favor of doing it now raise their hands phil super fizz i'm gonna count super fast so that'd be two and how many oh three so we got him no we get we got a majority we'll go with it let's do it now my i don't care if it came off yeah i just sorry real quick my involvement

really doesn't matter at this point for this part of it uh but i'm gonna have to bail just because my machine is gonna die and i don't have an outlet uh but just real quick madison can you send me these you can uh upload somewhere on a drive so i can edit that and then publish to youtube after this is complete uh yeah i'll try getting it to you i'll i'll try again all right appreciate it thanks everybody bye bye thanks take care guys i also have to drop off in about five minutes so i'll stick on until then and then i'll drop off i i believe we can do this very quickly if since since according to madison we all voted to do it right how much control do you have do you take over users funds

so no control over users funds none green our customers maintain control of their withdrawal keys which provide them complete complete control over the can you just uh maximize that box movement balls boards will maintain our valid to control the validator crease so that would be a yellow well what do you think i don't think there's much of a problem with it if they control the keys for the validator well okay okay yellow yellow

i'll put on a sort of a a real like sort of what do you call it cold-hearted like hat on here and just applying that um while it does also concern us withdrawal keys i know has full control of the funds itself but there is a small part of the signing key which is pretty important and it's the exit transactions exit transactions cannot be broadcasted without the signing key um so therefore it does sort of hold some power although not all and so i think saying withdrawal keys um with users is great but with if signing keys are with validators i think it's fine to set them as yellow to set apart

like totally uh i mean pools that would have let users control both of them right yeah totally agree but particularly in the case that the um holder of the signing key loses the signing i mean that wouldn't be a problem right is it is it the withdrawal key or is it the um is it a mnemonic where you can derive the um sign key from that's the real question right can you if you if you have this this normal process of where the keys are derived you have this secret where um you derive the withdrawal key and the signing key from

and if that's the secret the the customer is holding then at any point they can um derive the signing key right well well you pair up when when you deposit right you could set up like that's one way of doing it uh right so pairing up just withdrawal can design key and derive it from the same secret right yeah but the other option is to pair them up separately and once you do that yeah once you do that it's over like you're your secret only holds the withdrawal of power and the signing key stays will to validate yeah so so this is why um it depends on whether it's really a withdrawal key or whether it's the the secret that

derived the withdrawal key and the sign key right because otherwise if if the um if it's just the withdrawal key and the signing key gets lost well then the funds are stuck there i see what you're saying but we are not we are not explicit about what zero one or two means i mean for for this question they are talking about it it turns out it's withdrawal question um yeah because so it maybe it should be levels of keys whether they hold

signing key withdrawal key or mnemonic or maybe uh the uh maybe a different way of approaching this is sort of uh on similar to how people discuss whether it's an l2 or sidechain right that will we and the question people ask is uh can you withdraw your funds without having to rely on a third party right i think that's sort of similar questions that we could be asking and decide on whether it's a green or a red depending on each of the of those questions yeah and in that framework this would be a yellow another way to look at in our comment another way to look at it would be

can the staking provider do anything that would lose your funds with the keys and and in that framework um even if you're holding the signing key you can produce a slashable event and that would lose part of the funds right yeah you could also voluntary exit which would be really foolish but yeah i'm sorry you guys are just telling me my worst nightmare right now so uh phil would you suggest changes to

this so it would be more clear i think you're amazing yeah it was just thinking about it um so we're with the current color code we're not really um we are not differentiating between um the different keys which are just distributed right we um since we're going to review the whole question we can wipe this and make it i don't know i don't have the perfect answer for that you just want to clear um um how about how about framing it uh

this way and i'm uh shooting this uh a bit into that open here but um green meaning um you could trustlessly exit take your eth out whenever you want um yellow meaning you do need some help uh from your service provider uh like in the case of you know valuers like us you do need help on getting the exit transactions but afterwards you're fully at control of withdrawn the red meaning you need permission you need to get permission from the service provider to actually do the exit transaction and on top of that you need to ask you need to rely on them to then send the funds over to the to an account

you control so um jk in the yellow category there like when you're saying that like you're like the users need your assistance in order to do the exit transaction does that mean like who has the mnemonic because if they had the mnemonic couldn't they generate signing keys and do the exit transaction even without your cooperation no so when pools

when they deposit we're not the users don't have the so like the signing keys are generated from the validators and and the withdrawal keys are generated from the users and then they're paired up oh okay okay got it because also as you have a nightmarish scenario where potentially you could yeah uh you could have two signing keys somewhere right like it just doesn't make sense that that's not how it's designed thankfully okay i understand um phil how does that sound does that would that get closer to achieving what you think might be an ideal uh way of answering this i think that covers at least

the one aspect of because the ones getting fun stuck or looking at from from that perspective um because the one part is like we need to think of this from an uh a user's perspective right who would have no idea what withdrawal keys or signing keys per se are like some emotions but some might but like most might not and what they would just be worried about is like do i can i get my funds back yeah and i'm just trying to think of how to layer that question true and i'm i'm internally i'm just thinking about the failure cases right one of one of the failure cases

obviously is um the company just disappears for whatever reason and this covers best this scenario where potentially the sticking pool um just disappears or i don't know the servers are seized or what for whatever reason they can't access their their keys that makes me think of block staking where you know it's the remote signer so the the person staking always has full control over their keys and no matter what happens to blocks if it disappears it is an inconvenience but it's not it's not catastrophic by any stretch right and then there are the other failure cases where

um for example slashable events right those are um those are done with the signing key so i i don't i don't think that there is a perfect metric which covers two of those factors which are my opinion the the the highest risk in staking or going with a sticking provider losing funds a because the the pool goes rogue or exit funds or withdraw funds to a different party or lose the keys or b um just produce a slashable event

and you lose funds uh that way i think we may be able to simplify this very easily by saying uh the pool has full control the pool has partial control or the pool has no control i think those three things might simplify the whole thing maybe and maybe i'm to interrupt i i do need to drop off now uh but i'll leave it to you guys and let me know if you guys need any more input on discord thanks jk thank you jk i think it's yellow for this one at least we know

it's yellow for this one uh which one are we referring to that big along this one okay okay we control the validator key users hold withdrawal key that would be a yellow under this context as well two i would assume we have no information i would say this is red because we just don't have enough information a two would mean that so at least i assume they mean signing in withdrawal key and that would fall into the category red where um you

you give them your funds and you're just it's up to them to give you to give you something back and you're just trusting the party right all right so uh we only hold the signing keys that would be yellow correct we use bls threshold signatures to make sure not a single party owns all the keys i think that's still yellow because it sounds like they need to sign for you to exit like if it's multisig like presumably you couldn't

just exit that on your own okay enough i can't keep it yellow i guess i'm good with the um uh in the pool service we will generate a shared withdrawal key with smear secret sharing the parts will be distributed between trusted entities what do you think phil i would need to read that completely we change the framework to where i don't

know if i can evaluate reds anymore yeah so madison just to give context i i was looking at a pool this week and i sent my eth1 deposit and now they have full custody of my coin i cannot retrieve my coin um i have zero access to it and i was like wow that's a red flag i don't know it's my anecdote um so i would say that should be yellow

because at no point you can trust us trust us leave without any other party exit um at least from my understanding of their setup cool rocker pool zero that's good let me uh staking facilities does have an answer down here now i'd like to merge it up here to give them the benefit yep that's a good point we hold the validator keys not the withdrawal keys and that would be a yellow and then the custody withdrawal keys is liquid stake our staking service

providers currently i think do we go over this today we did awesome we did but we have a different i don't know um it's okay to review it yeah let's let's review it because we changed the metric or the the the color code for that if they custody withdraw keys that would be a red right yes yep so we're good awesome i was gonna say ask we didn't rocket pool but i guess that's zero so that's awesome i think we're good we're good

yep all right it was the right thing to do it was the right thing to do to go over it i'm a little curmudgeonly it's 12 30 for me and i got work in the morning you know but it was the right thing to do so 5am for me yeah phil phillips over here this is why i feel bad i remembered i'm like phil's over here at 4 5 a.m in the morning and i'm complaining about 12 30. so you know phil i literally was thinking about that i was like you know what i need to quit my complaining i still probably will complain but phil by the way you're you're an engineer right uh you're somewhat what's your day job my my background is

in physics physics is that is that what you do as a day job um we can discuss i'll drop the record let me turn off the recording