Eclipse and the Next Generation of Rollups | Terry & Ren

Transcript

there's going to be a lot more rollups like us we are the first but basically rollups that acknowledge the fact that you know fragmentation is bad and try to become the shelling point where all DBS can live um and that necessitates a couple things like local fee markets uh and fee redistribution and instead of incentivizing app chains and then interoperating via shared sequencer I think you're going to see a lot more very high performance Roll-Ups that can support the entire of execution through that is required from their dap base the polygon Community grants program was launched with 1 billion tokens all four polygon Builders season 1 is live right now and features 35 million in madx to

support the next generation of polygon projects builders on polygon these grants are for you join the aggregated future today by applying at polygon.net pair trading exchange built on top of Simo users can trade trending narratives with one click from BL ch narratives such as long BTC short e right through the whiff versus Bonk the Hat stays on Sim's intense Centric architecture enables deep liquidity source offchain and Brad onchain and combined with pair has democratized access to complex trading strategies typically reserved for institutional Traders Avalanche is a smart contract platform that has a novel consensus protocol subnet infrastructure and the hyper SDK toolkit which allows web free

developers to easily launch custom powerful blockchain Solutions you can start building today by checking out the link nothing said on zerox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell Securities or tokens this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions not Financial advice Pacho Ryan and our guests May hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed what's up guys welcome back to another episode of zerox research today I'm joined by Ren and Terry from Eclipse Ren Terry thanks for coming back thanks for having me thanks for having us she's going to be back too before we get started I want to ask Ren are you happy to be back yeah I mean

obviously I host my own POD at uh Eclipse right now it's sort of like a golden Market Focus pod and we also talk about like stuff in the svm land from time to time but I have missed you bco so it's good to be back and R Ryan too Ryan too okay we'll link to the Pod below um cross marketing is apparently a good thing so it'll be nice all right more seriously do you guys want to give a brief overview of what you guys are building over at Eclipse yeah let Terry take this one yeah for sure um eclipse is a spml 2 um we are basically bringing the salon of virtual machine as a layer 2 on ethereum so I think like the natural

question here is why bring the Sol on a virtual machine to ethereum like why did you guys decide on doing that yeah well we wanted to make something that was different and you know if you come from first principles and you think about what type of execution environment you want to build out an L2 for there's a couple important facets to consider um the first one is that the execution environment that you're building out should have organic traction and a large ecosystem of daps um and strong devx uh and devx infrastructure uh so it generally has Network effects and the evm is excelling at that the svm obtained that this cycle number two is that the execution layer should have some sort of very

intrinsic Merit to it right like it's super fast the contract programming language has a ton of traction outside of crypto something like that and so when we observed and thought about the tradeoffs between the different execution environments available to build out a general purpose L2 you know the evm was less interesting um and the svm was really you know it was the execution environment with the most organic traction uh the most highest in production transactions per second the largest number of innovative daps um and yeah like it uses rust which a lot of developers are familiar with uh it has a lot of organic infrastructure built around it so that's why we decided to

build on the SPM I'll follow up on that I think if you look at the state of rollups and l2s today right they're not exactly like that performance even the most performing l2s only have 30 TPS and if you look at conduit dashbot roll up. WTF the total TPS across all of the l2s on ethereum have a combined TPS of 260 and I know that like TPS probably isn't the best metric today but it's still metric that is like kind of useful for like comparison sake whereas if you look at salana and the svm today right salana very casually reaches probably like a, nonv TPS on a daily basis on a daily basis day in and day out and it's one of

the most battle hardened performing execution environment that we have today compared to any other sort of VM stack out there and I think that's the fundamental reason from like a more quantitative perspective why we decided to use the svm and a lot of people say that TPS is like a flawed metric but it's only a flawed metric if you're disingenuous about it right oh yeah I'm benchmarking on pure transfers or whatever right if you Benchmark on ual transactions that's what users do so then you want to you know benchmark on what actual user actions are that makes sense I have a few followup questions on the SPM so I want to hear from you guys what the difference between the SPM and the evm is like both specifications wise and

like you already gave a rundown of why but I kind of understand want to understand like how exactly they differ gotcha difference between the S and the evm um well first of all a lot of people are contentious about like what exactly the svm and the evm are but I want to hear talk about it as if it's the entire execution um environment stack not just like the virtual machine specifications uh largely the two differences that I think matter uh when building out an L2 is number one parallelism uh which we all know about the evm is also adopting parallelism the svm uses pessimistic parallelism which means that all state access um and all accounts that are locked during

execution are stated up front in the transaction specification while in the evm parallelism um methods uh they're optimistic and current so basically you you know run the transactions as if there is no uh contention and then you have to re-execute uh later um so that's number one in terms of the differences number two is that because of those differences uh the svm uh specifically in the execution environment has multiple levels of local state contention uh or local state local fee markets um so the first of those is that in a salon block uh an account can only take up 25% of the block that's number one and then number two um there are

multiple proposals where over time uh there are fee mechanisms attached to right locking specific accounts or like basically writing to specific accounts uh that change dynamically per account instead of in the evm where there's a global priority fee auction right so those are kind of the two differences they're not entirely differences in the virtual machine itself so like the runtime virtual machine you know how the stack and Heap get allocated and things like that but there are kind of overarching differences that I think matter more when it comes to you know the user and how they interact or the DAP and how they interact with the execution stack perfect that makes sense um one kind of followup to this that I have

is and you guys go through this in your dogs on your website and like in other places but why not just why not Solana and what you guys put in is that you want to be more um but I want to understand like what is more in that sense yeah a lot of people haven't taken advantage of the fact that as an L2 you basically have the ability and the leeway to get more performance out of your execution environment than in an L1 right an L1 is basically encumbered by consensus where you know a certain number of notes even if you do asynchronous consensus where you just agree on the ordering um of a set of transactions people have to do that communication uh and

that yeah that that basically like people have to communicate with each other and in the process incur some latency uh and incur some comput computation in saying that okay yeah this is the canonical ordering of transactions meanwhile if you have a single sequencer or a rotating set of sequencers you basically only have one entity saying okay this is what the transaction ordering is and in that process you shave off um you fundamentally are a little more performant there uh the other thing is that l2s rely on verifiability of execution right um so l1s rely on consensus uh over the post execution State Route in order to enforce safety

but l2s rely on verifiability of the post execution State Route which has a oneof end trust assumption or you sometimes not a trust assumption at all in the case of ZK um and so if that is the case we can then increase the uh Hardware requirements on the sequencer side as long as we can keep execution costs re-execution costs relatively low right and so from Eclipse perspective our verifier or um kind of like our L2 full node which keeps up with the tip of the chain just downloads snapshots and reapplies data availability so it doesn't need to actually have the same Hardware requirements of the sequencer um and of course like re-execution is one of end so what you can do as an L2

is you can you know push really really hard on the hardware requirements of the sequencer you know you can give it a ton of memory you can give it a ton of bandwidth um you can even go into like Hardware acceleration Hardware software code design at the sequencer level while still keeping the verifier Hardware requirements low and re-execution trust us and permissionless and so not a lot of teams have actually gone this route but that's what we want to do Salon is performant but we want to throw incredible amounts of interesting research optimization and hardware at the Block producer level to see what other optimizations we can get how further we can get in terms of performance I would follow up there with a study more left curve explanation um I

think if you look at the crypto landscape today right you see salon and ethereum are by and large two of the largest ecosystems both in terms of user adop and liquidity in terms of like assets that are utilized or just sitting on a chain where traditionally sonana hasn't been able to access the liquidity of ethereum right whereas if we build a L2 we're able to access the God knows how much e sitting on mayet the $80 billion worth of stable coins on E liquidity while benefiting from the performance improvements of the svm as a L2 and so I think just a Skilling rollups to an order of magnet you cheaper and higher throughput than existing l2s on ethereum

today and B being able to benefit from access to ethereum's liquidity is just like a slightly more left curve reason of why we want to bring salana to ethereum yeah that makes sense um what is the rest of the stack made up of like okay SPM for execution what else are you guys using yeah so it's svm for the execution layer um yeah for settlement which just basically means that we you know post aate route to uh to the settlement layer like at certain periods of time for trustless liquidity and trustless bridging is ethereum the da layer is Celestia um and that was because we

needed something that was more performant than eth I think dank sharding Target uh data throughput is like 1.3 to 1.5 megabytes per second um and that's not enough to support even salana TPS today and so we needed something that was order of magnitude higher and Celestia provides us that um and then with the fraud proof mechanism we hope to use risk zero for da layers are you going to be posting on one like only on Celestia or are you planning on doing multiple da layers I I've always like wondered if because it makes sense if since it's so cheap but I wonder how you guys are going to approach that yeah only on Celestia I think Celestia is going to be cheap for a long time um Celestia has the ability to increase

block sizes while still keep being verifiability so yeah definitely Celestia that makes sense and you chose ifm as a settlement layer just because of the liquidity or is there something else that you guys are interested in yeah in large part uh it is because of the liquidity like once you include um you know the settlement layer in your train derivation you get trustless access to all liquidity on ethereum ethereum is you know where all the liquidity is and so that's very interesting for us that makes sense um and what can I as a user expect different like with a svml 2 versus EV ml2 what are like some immediate differences that I would

face apart from low costs and incredible execution I would say that uh by and large like the user experience like shouldn't be that different especially like I'm not going to like amplify the fact that we have like lower costs cheaper transactions faster transactions just because a lot of l2s are like relatively cheap in the grand scheme of things and all of them get pretty fast like soft confirmations from the sequencer anyway eclipse is not going to be different I think one thing that is different is obviously a the user experience in terms of like the type of wallets that they're going to integrate with since we're svm L2 you're not going to be able to use like some of the wallets that you may be traditionally

sort of like integrated with for example like rabby you probably won't be able to use that we will have metam mass snaps we will have salmon water we may have some other salana based wallets that'll be coming online so in terms of like the wallet user experience it'll be very much like salana and not that different you would still have sort of like the same base fees the same sort of like priority fee model in terms of dabs I would say the largest difference is that we really optimizing for dabs that a are truly build are truly skillable within an ecosystem because if you look at existing l2s today right like if you find like a semblance of product Market fit you're going to saturate block space for a single L2 and the incentive for you there is to move to an app chain

whereas if you build on Eclipse you sort of have designated block space from the 25% CU limit and the incentive is a little less there for you to become an app chain there's of course other factors to consider in terms of like execution value of Creo muv but there's ways to fix that too and the user can basically expect this like I want to say the intersection of various ecosystems right first you're going to have the trusters access to e liquidity so you will have EBAs assets second we will have bridging available from solanum so you'll be able to access assets just as Soul GTO Soul LS and Sal land and also using hyper and IBC we'll also be bridging over assets such as like Stak

dydx Stak Tia so basically the goal is to become this I don't want to say centralizing Hub but just a hub between these various ecosystems and obviously there's a bunch of D5 Primitives that will basically flourish on these assets from these various ecosystems whereas if you look at the landscape today I think it's hard to for example justify bridging e to salana and then pairing like LP e and so together right like that's just kind of like a Jank weird setup whereas like on Eclipse that makes a lot more sense because we'll have both bridging from E mayet and from salana and you'll be able to LP e and s together so user experience wise pretty similar to salana dab ecosystem Wise

It's a good mix of like salana like native dabs some of them which are going to deploy an eclipse and some other Eclipse native deps with a mix of games nfts consumers and whatnot yeah and one thing to add here is um you know the only reason for Eclipse to exist is if we can if we can be in order of magnitude better uh to the end normal user who submits like one or two transactions a day it might be imperceptible but we do want to bring latency down we do want to bring costs down and we do want to bring TPS up by an order of magnitude if not more yeah totally so um thinking from like what's your go to market to get developers to build on a eclipse and like I'm thinking

about this in the context like 12 months ago um there wasn't much going on on salana and if you were thinking about building there like one maybe just like less competition or just like your go to market was very different now like salana has kind of come out of nowhere it's the kind of story chain of this cycle there's a lot of activity there so like you're now like competing with them whereas before like maybe 12 months ago like you guys had like a very clear go to market like what is the value prop to a Dev to build on eclipse and not um and not on salana I would say there's kind of two ways of looking at this fight first this

Capital has been like relatively sticky if you look at e main Net's like TBL is still in order of magnitude higher than salana and before the salana haters come for me I will acknowledge that salana has traditionally seen the much higher I think they call it capital efficiency right like with for the same amount of LP salana se's like a buttload higher uh Dex volume bwing lending and defi activity where I still think like a lot of capital is going to remain on ethereum right so for the pitch for like a salon developer it's basically hey you have a salana dab if you want to try and give it a shot to access e liquidity which is still an

order of magnitude higher than salana in terms of liquidity while still benefiting from the same performance benefits that salana and the svm provides eclipse is for you right and then for study more like ethereum based Builders and ethereum based the picture is that no L2 today probably provides you with the benefits of building a truly scalable da right I think a lot of DS find product Market fit first on one chain and then eventually build towards like this app chain using a modular stack so our pitch is hey we're going to give you low fees we're going to give you parallel execution so your user experience will never deteriorate you will never have to

sort of suffer from the Noisy Neighbor problem where one nft mint takes up the entirety of block space and your users get priced out the whole chain goes to and basically your users suffer a really bad user experience not as a result of anything or anything that you did and so that's kind of the pitch to ethereum developers and to follow on to that I think eventually we will get questions of like okay adap has built out has been built out on Eclipse why would he not basically build an AB chain right and I think the pitch there is that a a lot of Builders have gone towards an AB chain route because they did not have sort of dedicated block space and they basically get like

pushed out of the block space and so the incentive is there to basically control their sort of own block space and the second thing is I think a lot of ecosystem do stabs because they cannot offer sticky paying customers right we want to aggregate this to a roll up through basically like this interoperable ecosystem that's composable where the sum is greater than the parts and basically the value of staying on the rollup should surpass the value of becoming your own app chain even for DS that find product Market fit and I think that's one point where we want to def on ideology yeah that makes a lot that makes a lot of sense Ren um thinking

about um road maps right like everyone 's excited about things like fire dancer and there is a there's a Dev team over there they have relationships with jump um like the market knows that what is the eclipse like road map in the context of like the s or in the context of Sal's road map right because like they have resources they have they they they have relationships um what's when when when salana ship something are you guys copying and pasting like are you guys going your own route like like what's that future look like yeah so specifically in relation to fire dancer

Eclipse will adopt fire dancer when it goes live um and the fire dancer architecture is very modular uh and there are many components of the fire dancer stack that scale linearly to you know say the number of cores that you throw at it specifically you know they are quick implementation uh scales linearly their um signature verification stack requires an fpga but they use a consumer fpga we could use something that's more sophisticated um the ano is currently solving a lot of the memory issues that allow you to will allow you to basically allocate more threads in execution in the banking stage um and so like in conjunction we expect that uh if we are to use the fire dancer which we will

when it is available on mainnet there is a lot of affordances by becoming an L2 and using the affordances of centralization of an l to with fired answer and optimized Agave client um otherwise in terms of feature Gates yes we will be completely main net compatible got it so when you say main net compatible you mean like a SPM developer can easily copy paste their application to um to eclipse and just it goes exactly I'll add on to Terry there we're going to be main it compatible and we are obviously going to utilize a lot of the sort of developments directly from

salana contributors salana Labs or like salana client related teams but we are also making a heavy research push right we don't really just want to take from Solan we also want to contribute back to salana so whether that's like cor validated client optimization and research there or for example tinkering with like transaction fee markets we're going to be putting out a lot of research in the coming months SL year that hopefully informs our own road map in terms of how we want to best implement the svm and maximize its performance and hopefully deliver that value back to salana itself or perhaps other like svm chains that's super interesting so are there any and you know maybe we can't

speak to it today but are there any like design decisions that you guys are are thinking about that are going to differ um or anything that you would do differently if you were in control of that road map one thing that we've thought a lot about is the transaction fee mechanism and obviously like salana had a bit of issues with network congestion uh that were in large part because of you know cheap base fees plus incentives to spam um that is something that we're strongly considering like for one our configuration right now makes us cheaper than salana with and we are probably anticipating a lot more spam than salana which makes us want to you know think much more about adopting

multi-dimensional fees especially in relation to network congestion um faster and especially in relation to um local fee markets right I think one of the biggest benefits of salana and svml 2 uh we can specifically argue and ren touched on a lot of these points that it can be a shelling point for um syn like synchronous composability within one L2 ecosystem especially if you have value cruel back to the daps in certain some certain way you know like kantos CSR or a Mev redistribution um plus local fee markets plus extremely scalable um like an extremely scalable L2 you can then argue that okay like all the apps can then

live on this chain plus interoperate with each other and plus they have an incentive to stay on the Chain uh so like tinkering with that type of thing uh is also on the road map for us uh whereas it is much more difficult for salana to do that you kind of touched upon something I want to ask you and we gave um Ren gave a really good kind of introduction to this is like how you're going to on board but I think he gave more the pitch but I I want basically like the CSR is what you mentioned which I think like did okay for Kanto as an idea but it never really did that well I want to understand like what are some steps that you guys are going to take because rollup competition is huge now especially like onboarding dabs and

we've seen some good attempts like the big bang thing from blast was good do you guys have any specific uh programs lined up or how are you approaching that in general yeah so rank can speak about that in the go to market side and I'm kind of thinking about this more from you know a technical rollup construction perspective right like with pudgy chain one thing I realized is you know apps is reasons why well it's very obvious that apps are the reasons why people go on chains but the job of the chain itself is to provide developers and provide ecosystems and provide um people with a reason to deploy on your you and the reason has to be that basically their revenue is going to increase if they Deploy on your chain uh and if that's not the case then you know why would

they Deploy on your chain if they can get huge grants from other people like there's millions of developers that exist on Ronin Etc right and so from a technical perspective we're thinking about different mechanisms that have been used so you blast did a sequence of Revenue share Kanto did CSR um and and then there's also like other uh ways that have not really been explored that are being used in the apps specific ecosystem that have not you know come back to L2 specifically there's me redistribution um so like harvesting like non-malicious MV at the sequencer level and then doing some sort of attribution back to daps and then redistributing that uh it's happening on sort of like the the uh the application side with things like sorala um but no

one has really explored and deeply thought about what that looks like in the L2 and that's kind of like a lot of what we're thinking about you know how can we bring the value that we create at the sequencer level and best redistribute that back to the daps from the study more Golden Market side of things fundamentally eclipse is in the business of selling block space right which means that we want to drive the most demand for Block space and I think there's a few ways you can do this like sure you can do off like the copy past D5 Primitives you know like a DEX a lending bowing Market a proex and whatnot and I'm not saying that we're not going to have that for sure we also

want those D5 Primitives and those D5 Primitives will be launching on our chain but I think the way I think about this which might be slightly different for other people is that a lot of people often say like l2s or chains build basically a for like The Vibes or B they have an existing Community I definitely agree with that there's definitely like a chicken and egg problem you want to see like a sticky Community you want to see a large amount of liquidity you want want to know that demand for your dep and whatever product or service that you're building is going to be there just from like heuristics but also I think the real like 10x Builders if you build something that's truly break out truly drives value to

the users and it's truly something novel interesting fun engaging with high retention people will bridge over to your chain assuming it's not like insanely complex like you need go through like three wallets or something like cost most IBC then people will bridge over to your chain to use whatever dep you have built given that is so valuable to them and it provides them with a lot of fun happiness or makes them a lot of money right so thinking from that principle I think basically we are indexing more on people that can build out these standout SL breakout deps that a are hopefully able to uniquely utilize the features of the svm as an ethereum L2 but B also Trust

themselves as builders that they will be able to bring over the users I guess in large part one thing I want to add there is um I think what a lot of Chains Get wrong is that they are highly opinionated with capital allocation uh specifically if you remember like the 200 million arbitrum gaming fund uh it's very difficult for a chain and a lot of mistake that people make is that they basically invest in things that worked out last cycle uh and or worked out in their near like memory vicinity like okay like meme coin launchers brought a lot of you activity to salana and therefore I'm going to create an ecosystem fund that basically invests in meme coins that are native to our chain and but in in a lot of cases

like what drives adoption and traction isn't necessarily like on my chain isn't what has worked in the past for someone else and we want to be like incredibly mindful of that and be relatively agnostic in terms of you know what where our Capital goes to and where do we allocate our time and interest to in supporting builders that are doing novel things I'll follow on with that if you're a builder right you're building a product the main thing that you want is distribution and we're really also very cognizant love that so what that us helping make ecosystem introductions intro to VCS helping protocols work with each other to create like positive some games and that's one of the very large

reasons why we created the podcast add Eclipse right it's a golden Market Focus podcast because a lot of parts that talk to Founders today just talk about like hey your product is here like these are like the fashion new features that you are going to announce in your road map here's this new thing that you launched yesterday and sure that's great if you want to like find out like what's happening but then as a builder I'm like okay I have no clue where this guy went wrong I have no clue if this Builder like had to do it all over again would he do anything differently what were some of the key mistakes that he learned from what were some of like the largest growth levers he put food and we basically want to drive value to builders help them learn from it while simultaneously helping them with

distribution and attention and I think in on top of like building like true standout apps that don't just look at last cycle what happened recently with a recency bi and saying like hey that worked the combination of that will lead to a successful ecosystem polygon labs are developing the next generation of open- source ZK Tech to aggregate crypto liquidity and user bases empowering developers to grow in a unified web of inter operable chains with the a layer the a layer is a machine for Network effect don't worry about boost wrapping liquidity just build anywhere in the a layer to tap the liquidity and users everywhere to support the aggregated future and boost scrap quality project the polygon Community grants program was launched with 1 billion tokens All For

polygon Builders season one of the community grants program is live right now and features 35 million in mtic to support the next generation of polygon projects for Builders on polygon or projects interested in migrating these grants are for you join the aggregated future and feel empowered to grow in an infinite web of unified interoperable chains apply today at polygon.net exchange built on top of Simo users can trade trending narratives with one click from Blue Chip narratives such as long BTC short e right through the whiff versus Bonk the Hat stays on Sim's intense Centric architecture enables deep liquidity source offchain and Broad onchain and combined with pair has democratized access to complex

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for web fre that check it out by clicking the link below Ren comes back on the Pod and just shits on it man that's crazy no but I agree with you I agree with both of you I I've had like free questions over the past three minutes just because everything you're like yes but like also this um I'm gonna start off with the me returns to sequencers with Terry and then we'll go on from there but how are you guys exactly thinking about that I mean obviously you said you haven't decided on it yet and how it's going to work but what are some like choices that you guys are thinking of there all right yeah we've talked to a couple different people that are um working on this problem and ideating around it and generally it's an attribution issue so like we can have a um auction mechanism at the

sequencer level uh to Au of the ability to propose blocks right because we have a complete Monopoly over block proposer you in perpetu if you have a single sequencer we have a rotating sequencer but basically same thing um and it's really a matter of just um like how do you make sure that if there are bundles and or um like entire blocks being proposed and there's an aggregate level of me being bid like how do you make sure that that is attributed correctly to the dabs that originated it you know instead of say the users that if the users you know there's already a product by flash Bots called Mev share um where yeah the M generated by a single transaction if you use a specific RPC you get a rebate

right um and so yeah like we're still thinking about the exact construction but it's mostly that attribution issue and that might not be a solved problem but or a solvable problem we're not sure yet at the moment but it's something that I think will be highly interesting to daps right daps want to ACR value um and I think basically people are moving to app chains not because you know they want to make core modifications to the execution environment or the virtual machine or you know they want to make runtime modifications out of pre-compile like they basically want to ACR value and they don't want their fees and their users to be messed with because there's another you know me generating event or you know like a token Mint or nft mint that's on the Bas layer that is

basically losing me users because of the fees right um and so like if we solve for these two things I think we have a great chance of basically keeping all daps on the Chain without having giving them an incentive to leave to an app chain thanks all right that makes sense um Ren and Terry I mean you guys kind of brought up this issue before but I want to understand attracting users to the chain I think like yes you have um apps and you have I guess liquidity and like you have a very performant execution layer but one issue that I feel like you guys might face is the metam mass snaps and salmon wallet limitation and I know you're kind of mentioned that you're

thinking of onboarding Solana wallets but I want to understand like what that road map is like basically I know Ren you said you don't want to me to ask Founders what the road map is but I I do like this was something that I was thinking about quite a bit like how is I'm I assume you guys have some plans with wallets coming up yeah yeah um So currently on like tesn and defet a user can only use metamask snaps or salmon wallet and there was something that you alluded to right there's sort of a problem with svm chains in terms of chain IDs where a malicious staff can basically request a signature for an eclipse transaction and then the

simulation happens on Eclipse networks but then the staff submits the valid and sign transaction to Salon main because this sort of water I can't tell the difference between like eclipses like svm execution environment and like salana execution environment and the tldd said is basically a new fishing attack Vector so we do want to put out some research and a proposal around that to solve this issue both for ourselves and other potential svm chains that will be launching in terms of like the user experience side I do think not as many people are familiar with metam Mas snap or salmon wallet we do have other wallet Partners lined up that I cannot share right now but I don't think salana uses should be too worried I'll put it that

way that's perfect that's or should not be worried at all perfect um one more thing Terry one thing you mentioned was your sequencer design I we have like obviously over the past few weeks we've had a lot of talk about sequencers um John chbs released like a 40 page report looking into sequencer designs but I want to see hear like how you guys are approaching that because I mean you are a rollup a new type of rollup so I want to I feel like that's the biggest topic now yeah well I have some like stronger opinions about this and largely um like John's post was about you know how based pre-confirmation will make it's like

salana with extra steps uh there's a huge centralization Vector with proposers doing pre-confirmation um and so if we're commenting on just the based sequence quing part and or a shared sequencing part uh layer that you know a lot of people have been shown showing interest in um well so the basic issue is that rollups introduce fragmentation to the end user you have to add you know different chain IDs to your wallet you have to interact and Bridge across different chains um and in large part like shared sequencing is a very difficult social issue I think Justin Drake said on a podcast it's not a technical issue it's a social issue but I think that's why it's very very

difficult to solve right like every chain that has a lot of user user usage a lot of daps a lot of users has an incentive to launch their own shared sequencer um if I'm arbitr like why would I ever opted to optimism's you know super chain instead of just making my own orbit system uh and some rebuttal to this have been that basically like shared sequencers will harvest cross doain me uh at the Shared sequencer level and then redistribute that back to constituent chains uh with some sort of attribution mechanism but then you know you can also generalize that to say like I can build a shared sequencing mechanism that does that as arbitrum as optimism right so like from that perspective I feel like everyone every

large chain has an incentive to build their own shared sequencer uh which ends up resulting in these islands so right now you have these sequencer Islands uh or these rollup Islands or roll up here roll up there roll up there there but then in the future you're going to have something like shared sequence there shared sequence there Shar sequence it's going to look almost exactly the same you're going to be able to interoperate between like shards of a rollup right and that that kind of defeats the whole purpose of like um you know synchronous composability and so the idea that Justin Drake had was like okay because it's impossible to get a social shelling point with like a company building a share sequester let's have the ethereum um like L1 proposer be the shared sequencer but you know like there's a lot of issues with that in that you

can't get the same degree of performance uh you're restricted to similar block times that's where pre-confirmation comes in but that's where you know there's all these other trist assumptions there's all this other issues with meev and centralization um yeah and so like that's where the the vitalic post came in where he was arguing either you can spiritually and technologically be a base rollup where you subscribe to kind of the tradeoffs that space has you take that block time you take what's possibly low latency uh you take maybe out of protocol pre-confirmation guarantees which might not be delivered in time and or result in centralizing forces uh but you go with that or you just you know go with a fast chain um you become a server with

extra scaffolding as he says uh but in general um like once a chain an L2 does not give an app chain incentive to leave then you don't need a shared sequencer mechanism to to interoperate between your ecosystem and that's where we want to be like we want it we want to be super scalable have local fee markets uh to solve the Noisy Neighbor problem and have value Cur back to the daps so the apps that are building on Eclipse don't have an incentive to go build their own app chain then we don't need to build our own share sequencer that makes sense I have two questions but they're unrelated so I'm going to ask the first one first but then

I what you mentioned apps this was the question that I forgot about before um what apps do you guys Envision like I know you said you want to be unopinionated and that you don't want to decide and that a lot of rollups kind of fail in that because they want to bring in like what happened in the past but obviously if you're building a very high performance cane you have certain daps that you're you want to attract is there anything like in your mind that you think is particularly suitable for Eclipse because it brings in the SPM and the liquidity together I think as far as what that looks like today there's a good mix of apps between defi consumer nfts and I will be blunt in that a lot

of like the deps today and how the dabs function do not need the level of through foot that you see a lot on a lot of these like fast or high through foot chains right I want to be like very rudely honest about that but if we basically skilled in order of to larger user base then these l2s will run into to like a load of uh sort of stupid issues right so in terms of Def consumer NTFS as far as where our ecosystem is today there's a good mix of salana Blue Chips there's a good mix of some Eclipse native dabs and I forgot to mention this just now but we are going to be hosting a hackathon probably around the end of July early August with five different vertical and we hope to basically get

like a bunch more interesting deps there as far as where we want to see deps go in the future obviously as Terry mentioned we want to remain sort of like agnostic and really just enabling Builders to sort of build something that they think really provides value to users but personally I think some interesting ideas are for example devs that uniquely utilize like the parallel execution environment so for example like there's amm today and amms operate by sort of like living in this like gigantic like Singleton contract but with parallel execution for example you can build a shed amm where every liquidity pool is a separate contract

and with a shed amm construction you basically enjoy like a I think the paper say like a 5x higher like to put within that amm so like ideas like this are really interesting personally I also like to see more consumer breakout devs um I think def5 today is like pretty Limited in terms of what you can do especially you know like just trying to make money on me coins and I think consumer apps are slowly but surely taking off you know you're seeing things like blinks you're seeing like things like tip and you're seeing things like ZK B2B which are a lot of these barriers to building proper consumer depths slowly and slowly get broken down and I think slowly and slowely consumer Builders will realize that and build

interesting deps on chain and hopefully we'll see some of that on Eclipse Terry you brought up fragmentation um obviously I'm very concerned about it you're concerned about it and I think 99% of ethereum is very concerned about it how do you see like rollups evolve over the next few years yeah there's going to be a lot more Roll-Ups like us we are the first but basically rollups that acknowledge the fact that you know fragmentation is bad and try to become the shelling point where all DBS can live um and that necessitates a couple things like local fee markets uh and fee redistribution and instead of incentivizing app chains and then

interoperating via shared sequencer I think you're going to see a lot more very high performance rollups um that can support the entirety of execution throughput that is required from their D base I think it's naive for me to say that um in the future is going to look like one chain completely dominating the L2 landscape that is obviously like where we'd want to be but there will always be reasons for people to roll their own chain uh that doesn't have anything to do with value cruel and it doesn't have anything to do with fee markets right it might be just like a cultural thing people might want to do it for fun people might want to actually make modifications to the runtime and that's a legitimate reason for people to Branch off into app chain um and so those will always be incentives that are

present that makes sense um one thing that's um interesting on the salana road map is the um possibility of uh multiple leaders right um I'm just like Curious what do you guys think of that and is that an advantage or disadvantage versus what eclipse is is building yeah so one advantage you have as a multiple leader um is that well think about like proof of work uh one great part of proof of work was that there's multiple people that are competing for proposal and if that's the case then you have much less incentive to play you know monopolistic games that you can play uh because you are a you are the Monopoly for that lot

right um so things like timing games are much less feasible um for us like there is an inherent trust assumption in relying on a centralized sequencer especially if we are doing something like non-malicious me redistribution um and so like we don't we expressedly don't want to go toward a world where we don't have that element like we think that element a trusted sequencer um except with you know strong sensorship sh resistant guarantees and strong verifiability so you know safety and liveness are always preserved and there's a rotating Set uh other than that we think those are scaffolding enough to give people trust in being able to rely on one sequencer uh and

being able to trust you know whoever operates that to not be malicious uh and that gives us the affordances to really go hard on what is beneficial and what is possible with that construction right which is increase the throughput as much as possible and that's where we want to operate it like we want to differentiate on execution uh and you know everything related to the execution environment and we don't really you know want to think too much or care or compete in those other dynamics of you know okay we let's have a maximally um decentralized proposer set for example I think that's a good place to end it guys Harry Ren thank you so much for coming on is there any place that I should direct my

viewers to check out yeah definitely you can find us on Twitter at eclipse fnd or our website eclipse. XYZ and feel free to hop in there I'm basically TR online and more than happy to chat with anyone who's interested in building on eclips or just in general interested in learning more about eclips but thank you so much for having us on Boo and thank you Ryan too make sure to check out Ren's podcast as well and make sure to check out their hackathon at the end of July Ren thank you for the show I appreciate it all right have a good one are you currently building on polygon or interested in migrating season one of the polygon Community grants program is live right

now and features 35 million in madic to support the next generation of polygon projects builders on polygon these grants are for you join the aggregated future today by applying at polygon.net [Music]