EB64 – Adam B. Levine: Let’s Talk Bitcoin Network, LTBCoin, Monetizing Content & Crowdfunding

Transcript

hello welcome to epicenter Bitcoin the show which talks about the Technologies projects and startups driving decentralization and the global cryptocurrency Revolution my name is Sebastian K and my name is Bri CR today we're here with Adam Lavine Adam line is sort of played a very important role actually in the history of epicenter Bitcoin in that this wouldn't have happened without him we met the first time sebas and I uh last December on a conference call with Adam uh when the topic was to produce some new shows for a contest that let's talk Bitcoin was launching and we were both from Europe there was only four people on the call so he was like let's try it together and uh that turned out uh very well and we

were very lucky that way because we really didn't know each other so from a prudency perspective perhaps this is foolish but uh so we're really happy to have him on today I mean probably most of you will know Adam he's uh he's well known of course for let talk Bitcoin and he's also been involved in all kinds of other uh projects in the cryptocurrency space so uh just before we get started with the conversation I wanted to briefly mention inside Bitcoins Berlin so you know many of you will know the inside Bitcoins conferences it's actually where we Sebastian and I met for the first time in real life was a year ago at the last Light of Bitcoin inside bitcoin's conference in Berlin so it's happening again and it's going to

be March 5th and 6th uh and if you want so we will both be there I will also be giving one of the keynote talks on sort of economic issues in Bitcoin and if you want to come to we'd love to see you there uh you can get off 15% with the discount code epicenter IBC that's all in capitals and you can check out the event at inside bitcoin.de um so with that out of the way uh thanks for joining us today Adam thank you Brian thank you [Music] Bastion and I just I just want to point out like how instrumental you have been in you know this happening I mean if it

wasn't for for Ian you producing your content and me like at that exact time getting interested in Bitcoin anding out podcasts and then Brian already being a listener and us meeting there like none of this would have ever happened and so uh I mean I don't know if we qualify you as some sort of I don't know I don't know what that qualifies you but an important part of the epicenter Bitcoin experience uh and the success of you know what what has happened since then so um very very happy to have you on we can we can call you the spiritual grandfather if you'd like exactly that's what I was looking for there we go there we go yeah I I like the I like to be a catalyst that's what I really I really enjoy doing is I like setting off chain

reactions that then result in cool things happening that I don't really have to be involved in you know like we don't talk you know like you guys just do your show you never ask me for permission or anything thing it was just like a suggestion so I'm really glad that it worked for you guys and I'm glad that you're having good results yeah absolutely well uh and with that let's launch into into your show let's talk Bitcoin because I mean I I was you know when when I started becoming interested in Bitcoin I was writing my master thesis and I was really really busy uh so I had like no time to read at all but I was walking around quite a lot so when I started initially I I just caught up on the few of of content you'd already produced so so my my initial knowledge

the first two months came purely from let's so Bitcoin so and you've you've done absolutely great job I think you've produced great content over a long time and you know with some great guests um so uh can you tell us a bit like how did you how did you start let ofon sure um first off once again thank you that was was really flattering from both of you I appreciate that um I'm glad that uh I'm glad it's had a positive impact on you you know I I make let's talk Bitcoin and I've always made let's talk Bitcoin because I'm interested in cryptocurrency and actually let's talk Bitcoin was the I

can never remember if it's the second or third the third or fourth Bitcoin podcast I started but it was not the first you know uh I and I started doing Bitcoin podcast let's talk Bitcoin started in 2013 spring of 2013 and before that I had done two podcasts in 2011 and then a podcast right before it in 2013 too that sort of exploded right before we started let's talk Bitcoin so um this is it was not something new to me and I I've been doing podcast since 2005 so it's a really natural way for me to kind of just share my perspective with people and that's largely what it is um the podcast that I made until let's talk Bitcoin we almost entirely about me sharing my perspective and about you know um trying to help people

complete the picture so they could see it as I saw it because I'm right about almost everything he said jokingly um uh so let's talk Bitcoin was a little bit different because let's talk Bitcoin I didn't know everything about it and there were a lot of questions that I had that were really unanswered questions and so I surrounded myself with experts and it was sort of a it was a good way to kind of dive in and yeah those initial I mean I was I just listened to episode 13 the other day while I Was preparing for uh episode 183 which has Chris Odum on it um from open transaction and I was listening to it and I think I like the old show Almost better than I like the new show you know like I just I I guess I was less tired at the time I've been doing it for not

quite as long uh but uh but you know we've just the the journey has been that it's been a journey you know we've it's been the show the network everything has just kind of happened because it was the logical thing to happen in order to continue walking down the path that I've chosen to walk down which is uh from my perspective to try and explore as many of the possibilities the cryptocurrency presents as possible did that answer the question it might not have no absolutely and so what made you decide to want to start a network no because that's that was well I didn't decide I wanted to start a NW to be honest with you again it was just sort of the next natural thing that happened um you know in uh December of

2013 I was uh you know I was traveling a lot for conferences at that point and uh I was uh unhappy with the amount of Bitcoin podcasts that were out there besides let's talk Bitcoin and I had been a big fan of the uh Ed and Ethan Bitcoin report um and uh the plan B from Jupiter broadcasting and there was one other one whose name I can't remember uh and they all had discontinued because the uh because it was hard you know because it's hard to do something speculative without monetizing it and I again never cared for me it was always just I'm doing it anyways so I might as well you know might as well share this with everybody else so that they can kind of share my perspective and journey through the whole thing so um so the network happened because we did this

contest because I was like well there aren't enough Bitcoin podcasts so we'll you know Bitcoin was super valuable at that point it was over $1,000 dollar so we offered a one Bitcoin um one Bitcoin prize and got like 15 or 20 entries and a lot of them were really good and so what wound up happening is uh you know we invited one person uh who actually won the contest um and he joined and then pretty quickly we brought on a few others and we basically just it became less about um it became less about where you ranked relatively speaking and more if you did it and if you wanted to and if you wanted to and you asked long enough that eventually you got in and that's not an ideal situation that's something that really made me realize

that uh that in a lot of ways I become the bottleneck right if I'm the one that has to be responsible for proving things or saying no that's not right or whatever then it really does rely on me and at this point I mean you know at at that time I was so ridiculously overbooked that it was not even funny and that got to be more true as time went on so this is a long way of saying the network happened because there were a lot of podcasts that had the choice of starting over you know uh and building as let's talk Bitcoin had done from the ground up uh an audience that listens or to piggyback on what we were doing and start with our audience and essentially bootstrap up several thousand initial listeners it didn't guarantee that people were going to

listen everyone of your episodes but it meant that it was presented to them where otherwise it would have been quite expensive and quite timec consuming in order to gather that sort of initial audience know very well so almost a year I mean it's probably about a year now since the LTB network uh started off with its initial roster of shows and you've brought on other shows since then uh tell us about how that how that has uh worked out over the last year what what has your experience been with the network uh my experience has been that I need to be more uh so I'm transparent to a fault about most things with regards to the network if somebody ask me something I tend to tell them um if they don't ask me then I

don't necessarily tend to tell them so that again means that people who ask me stuff get you know get to know what's up and people don't ask me stuff don't necessarily get to know what's up it's not ideal um with the network I really wanted to help people monetize we had monetized well in November of 2013 because you know the Bitcoin price had Skyrock ET it up and suddenly everybody felt like they were rich and so we had for two months or 3 months been basically completely booked and towards the end of um and towards the end of January I finished negotiating a deal with uh with the crypto kit guys um to uh to you know sponsor uh the show for basically a full year which is just now kind of coming uh up to its end point so I was like well darn you know I mean

like we that that was easy you know it wasn't difficult everybody's feels like they've got a lot of money and so you know we can can totally share the wealth and help other people do the same thing too and then the price you know continued to go down over the year and as basically as soon as the price dropped below uh like $900 everybody suddenly was like well you know we probably shouldn't spend any money because it's going to go back over $1,000 and that kind of continued was my experience but the other part about it is that it was hard right where before it had been easy and so when something is easy I tend to do it and when something is hard then I have to really weigh it to determine if it's you know going to be worth the amount of time

that it's going to take so that was the monetization side uh in Spring we started um we basically launched the new website and the new website we were switching from WordPress onto an entirely custom platform that has become the token Le platform um that is essentially uh it's like a Content management system and a community platform that's designed from the ground up to incorporate not just cryptocurrency but also tokens and not just to accept them and to let you spend them or whatever but to also let individuals within them make their own token powerful on our platform that's uh that's kind of the important part so there was all this stuff right uh and as usual what happened was we just launched

the network too early and so people who were working with it with the expectation that they would you know be compensated because we had all these monetization plans they didn't do so well necessarily because we never did monetize and at that point we were also on terrestrial radio in uh Southern California uh with this deal that we had made with them and all the shows on that so schedules were really crazy so there were like crazy schedules combined with nobody getting paid and uh we didn't know at Radio I mean like we were talking about this for the show podcasts you have no idea how many people are listening you can kind of guess at how many people have started listening you can sort of guess at some other things but you never really know with radio it's even more insane because you only know that it's being broadcast you know

the area that the broadcast is covering and you know the potential number of people who could if they turned on the station right to your you know to what you're doing at that point so it's it's it was completely insane um and you know sounds like an interesting business model for radio analytics no somebody should get on that well that's actually part of the reason why magic words was something that we wound up developing was because radio completely suffers if you think about it radio is the uh is the medium of Last Resort you have no control over it and the only time people ever use it is when they literally have nothing else that they can do so it's great if you're multitasking or anything else like that but but yeah radio has a terrible listener engagement problem so actually yeah uh part of what we're

doing has been to kind of uh develop this idea that really what you want to do with listeners isn't just you know give them something to listen to but you want to give them a good reason to also be part of your community and then once they're part of your community then it's much much easier to see who's actually participating and how many people are actually listening and all these things so a lot of what we've done has been about that so this is you know like I said it's it's a long way of saying that uh the network has been what it is and people have chosen to Jo join it because they chose that because they decided that it was to their advantage to be able to speak to our audience and I agreed that their content was high enough quality that you know we were

able to put them on um and uh lost my train thought high enough to put them on but the flip side of that can't remember sorry no problem so one thing I recently did was I looked at Bitcoin podcasts that have existed so both on the LTB Network and and others that have been independent and and you know some of them I'd heard of some of them I saw in in the iTunes rankings and when you'd go back there it was quite crazy that almost all of them have been discontinued um and and including quite a few of the LTB network shows why has that been the case because monetization is hard because the audience that's interested

in this type of content is very small um the portion of that audience that uh is potentially interested in this type of content that is Will willing to listen to podcasts which is to say to not do video or to read a transcript is very small it's something like compared to video it's like 75% of people on the net use video um and only like 15% use audio right use a discrete audio formats and it's just a taste thing because a lot of times people can't multitask so I find that most of the people who listen to podcasts are people who really value or enjoy multitasking either because they're so busy or because they're you know working on something else and can't fully concentrate or in the cars stuff like that so um uh you asked why have shows been discontinued shows have been

discontinued because it's hard to do this speculatively and consistently because stuff happens and your priorities change and your interest level changes and if you're not getting paid for it then the impetus to keep doing it isn't quite as strong so I mean I'm crazy that's the that's the flat truth of it is I'm just nuts and I'd be doing this really regardless of what's happening so that I think is the key to let's talk Bitcoins continued success is that I am crazy and that we just do this I think there I mean the crazy part of it I think you could attribute to being passionate about it that I think that that what has kept us going is being passionate about producing great content and I think you share that same that same passion and you know I wish that I

cared more about the great content part I care about I care about information I care about knowing things I care about people knowing things and people having the correct impression of things so for a lot you know and the other thing I care about is giving people the ability to share what they care about right I'm super passionate about this stuff but the way that my attention works is that I either care about something 100% completely ridiculously unapologetically or I don't care about it at all and that's because I only have those two settings so if I like care about something just a little bit then that means I basically care about it as if I cared about it fully and so it's an incredibly irritating trait to have I have to tell you so that sounds

terrible so where do you see let of Bitcoin going in the future so both uh you the podcast itself and the network well so a big part of the reason why the network has been difficult not I mean like as individual participants I would I would argue it's been difficult for individual podcasters working with it they get Advantage but they have to work within our system and that's been difficult so what we've been doing for the last year is uh building out uh in part a new editorial system and the new edit I'm sorry what was your actual question I might be going into the wrong thing so the question was like where do you see let's talk Bitcoin going the

podcast and the network so where where do you see this uh there was a reason say two years down the line if you can see that so I think it will be much more complete I think there will be a much more feature uh complete platform that will allow its users to interact with each other with no where the platform enables the enables the uh the interactions and can enable the Commerce but it's actually just happening between those two participants and they're making all the rules you know as they see fit and the best part about that is that if we make all of these things entirely voluntary then there's literally no such thing as you know as a as a bad deal because somebody who doesn't want to do it doesn't do it you know somebody who doesn't want to work on a project and you know in order to

facilitate that we need to build in reputation systems and we're working on a collaborative editorial system and a and then beyond that um so let's talk Bitcoin right now is a front page that's powered by one Blog the system that we're moving to next is one where anybody can make a Blog and then content can be curated up from all of those distributed blogs onto the front page and then the next phase after that and actually these will happen at the same time is that anybody who wants to take content created within the LTB environment and make their own front page where they curate up their own you know other content from within the network based on their own standards they'll be able to do that too so right now or so some elements of Reddit and

um Community platform let's talk Bitcoin is a community platform part of that is publishing part of that is Commerce part of that is you know socializing part of that is project management part of that is planning I mean like there's you can think about it like um we used to before the age of the internet we used to go physical places and we used to meet people in you know bars or restaurants or town halls and we used to be able to interact with people and conduct Commerce in public places uh and and that was easy and the internet has replaced that partly but the part that it doesn't do well is it doesn't do anything that has anything to do with ownership or money well because the only thing that you can do is give somebody

else a debt which is not that useful so uh so I think that that's that's really what's Happening Here is the platform that we're designing you know we started designing it for let's talk Bitcoin but it is a generic Community platform in the same way that a town hall is a community platform anything that you can do there whether it's funding something or you know talking to somebody or signing a contract with somebody or whatever you can do it on this type of platform and more importantly because of that because that stops being the hard part you can do anything on one of these platforms literally anything well we've got so much more to talk about including LTB coin uh funding we want to talk about content mization

models but let's take a break before we do that and talk about our sponsor shapeshift so shapeshift is a fast and easy way to buy and sell altcoins and I'm curious uh I haven't seen LTB coin yet on shape Shi they've been adding all kinds of new coins all the time and and uh but LTB coins not there what's that do they have counterparty yet if they don't have counterparty or xcp then they wouldn't have us no yeah I guess that's true no they don't have uh they don't have cter party yet I mean that might come at some point but anyways so shape shift is a fast and easy way to buy and sell altcoins they support Bitcoin They just added bit shares uh They just added uh startcoin namecoin nextt they're adding

new coins every week so I can't even keep up and last week we tried to do a demo uh we tried to do a demo where with there shapeshift lens uh plugin which is essentially a chrome plugin which allows you to use shapeshift on any website it wasn't working there was a bug unfortunately it appears that they have fixed it so we're going to go ahead and uh and demo it this week and hopefully if we keep our fingers crossed and we pray to the demo Gods it will in fact work so if uh if if we go to the LTB uh website so we're going to donate to the last episode uh which is uh beond the blockchain with open transactions if we scroll down here we get the tip address right here this is a Bitcoin tip address

I'm going to click on so I've got the shapeshift lens plugin installed I installed it with uh it's in the Chrome web store you just look for shapeshift lens and you'll see the little shapeshift Fox logo right here so if I click that uh I get this little popup I click pay with I'm going to pay with Dogecoin and so there's my there's the destination address so this is the Bitcoin address that we're donating to and I'm going to go ahead I'm not even going to put in an amount I'm just going to set in my wallet what I sent so is pay I'm going to get a QR code I'll go ahead and scan that with my Dogecoin wallet and I'm

going to send $3 there you go so it's sending and you'll see here it's a waiting for your Dogecoin and just a few seconds there you go so payments been received and now we're just waiting for the confirmation and nice thing about shape shift that it doesn't require any confirmations so zero confirmations as soon as it receives uh the Bitcoins it starts doing its thing converting those Bitcoin into Dogecoin and uh or sorry dcoin into Bitcoin rather and in just a few seconds we'll be able to even we'll even be able to look at it on the blockchain and see

that it's actually went through so it's just still waiting confirmations and and you don't need to make an account but you can just get started and I think it's true no I'm sorry this there you go so it just went through and in fact so this is a nice feature here you can get a receipt by email and if we look if we click here and we look at the blockchain we'll see that that that transactions actually went through so there you go it took about what 30 seconds to get Dogecoin sent to that uh the latest episodes Bitcoin address so you should be getting that in your wallet very soon mam I should indeed very cool so there you go shapeshift.io give it a try tell us what you think uh you

don't even need to create an account as Brian mentioned and you only pay a small fee which is included in the price of the transaction ship shift. the fast and easy way to convert all your alt coins so moving on um the next thing we want to talk about and this is very closely tied to what we were discussing earlier in the network is LTB coin so in uh early 2014 uh you um proposed I mean you you started thinking about creating a currency within the LTB Network which would be used as sort of the the economic uh well the currency uh the uh currency that which would live inside the network and serve the LTB Network

for paying content producers but it would also serve advertisers to pay you to I mean donate and buy advertising for the show um what was the main thing that you were trying to accomplish when uh when you first thought of uh creating LTB coin I was trying to solve the bootstrap problem um which is what I called the um that uh like the first thousand people who you were trying to get involved in a given in a given project that you are interested in and the thing that Bitcoin did well that does not really exist anywhere else is they came up with a way where you could create a token create um a you know and I say that both Technic a token but also a token uh of contribution it's difficult kind of to

to conceptualize that um so LTB coin the value of it is very questionable but the value of it doesn't really matter from the from my perspective because the thing that we used it for is to incentivize and the thing that we continue to use it for is to incentivize um people to participate in our system this is not to say that it's the only way that you can interact with us it's just the best best way because it is the most cost-effective way relative to other options so the reason why it's worth it to us to do that is because we have no cost when it comes to creating this and using it to administer our Rewards program and you know I was uh just looking at this the other day we just did a distribution yesterday went out to over a thousand

people and uh I think it cost like 051 B BTC or something like that which comes to like $11 um so you know administering our Rewards program where we weekly send out you know different amounts of tokens to people you know automatically to people for less than $10 in terms of transaction fees and total cost is something that can really only be done with tokens and it means that when people are when people create something for us we don't have to wait until we get paid Bitcoin for it because we're not paying them Bitcoin we're passing along LTB coin and actually it's not even passing it along when we create LTB coin it's distributed based on your contribution right so if you're part of the audience then there's a part of each weekly distribution that is is created

that's given to you as the first user because you're valuable to the network you're someone who's spending their time and making their choice to consume content that our content creators and by r i mean people using our platform we have we have no even formal agreements with anybody um it's just a platform people use it because they have something to say and because we think that there because they haven't disqualified themselves is almost the thing right I'm very very leair when it comes to allowing content onto our platform it has to be at a certain quality level but besides that um it's been mostly about traffic control and then about you know uh people not you know breaking the few rules that we do have we're very specific about the

content that we allow on the network I'm sorry we're talking about LT bcoin so anyways the relevant part of LTB coin is that it doesn't cost us anything and so because it doesn't cost us anything just like Bitcoin can give it to the miners for free even though they're providing a valuable service it's free to the Bitcoin network uh we can do the same thing except it's with the audience it's with content creators and then there's a 10% that goes to the platform too um so LTB coin has been I don't know people again focus a lot on the price and I think that that sort of misses the point when you create a token and LT bcoin was one of the first tokens not cryptocurrencies but tokens ever created um there just wasn't anything you could

do with them and that was what we ran into is that uh you know I was you can think about a token right like a like a marble or like a ball bearing whatever um it is very like that in that if I hold it in my hand I have it if I give it to you I no longer have it it's no longer accessible to me and by itself it isn't really much of anything it's this little thing that is itself and that's pretty much it but if you take that ball bearing or marble and you put it at the top of a rub Goldberg type machine that is designed to you know like make me toast and kick me out of bed and all that stuff then suddenly you could make the argument that that ball bearing has the ability to make me

toast and get me out of bed even though the ball bearing itself didn't actually have anything to do with it because it was placed in circumstance that was set up for it to trigger certain things it actually causes that to happen and then of course it's also still a ball bearing so it you know you can't make an arbitrary copy of it and then give it you know let somebody else do it so so that's really what tokens are as far as I'm concerned we now have and that used to be impossible right used to be impossible to make a token you used to have to make an entire blockchain and go through Mining and do all of this other stuff so the idea that you could make something for an arbitrary reason kind of wasn't ever really feasible until tokens but once it is feasible then

suddenly what was impossible becomes the easy part and what was in inconceivable because the thing that preceded it was impossible is suddenly now an incredibly obvious problem and so when we started let's talk Bitcoin like in order to do that send out to a thousand people automatically and not have me sitting there doing every single transaction for you know 18 hours a day on the days that we have to do this uh we actually had to create an entirely new tool that uh is essentially an automated distributor where you send all of the where within our system you give it all of the addresses or LTB usernames that you want to send to you put in all the amounts or the percentages next to what it is that uh next to each name depending on how

much they should get and then the system gives you a single address to which you send uh the full amount of Bitcoin for the transaction fee and the full amount of whatever the token is that you're Distributing and then it automatically goes through sends out all those transactions at a rate that doesn't overwhelm the network um uh uh let's see here does it with fees that are less than half of what the standard counterparty fees are um because again like they're just fixed fees that since we built a custom tool we were able to experiment with and see okay well the network will deal with it here but it won't deal with it here um and uh and it also uh tracks confirmations and sends you it gives you essentially the ability to make sure that all the transactions actually did go through and it's

auditable too so that's something that like is so basic right being able to send a bunch of tokens different amounts of tokens to different people and not have it take a person all day or be a full-time job and yet until we created it it did not exist so has ldp coin worked um has it succeeded in things you wanted it to do ited ceeded in that it let me uh in that it let me allocate Credit in a way that could later be valuable right because if I just say you know if you helped me with an episode a year ago and I say to you thanks I'm successful now but you know thank you you helped me get there then that's great but if instead you got paid LTB coin and then a year later LTB

coin was successful because we're successful then that's something where your work earlier on actually had a very substantial impact for you and you actually can potentially profit if you know what we're doing doesn't wind up being valuable and it fails and everything doesn't work then doesn't matter to you you know it was a volunteer effort essentially you did anyways and the token was just a volunteer token but if the project succeeds there's that potential for upside so that's the thing is that we already I mean like you can already support things for volunteer for them you can already you know give people money for free the thing that you can't do is get a token back from that person that represents something that could be valuable in the future um without it costing that person because again like you could do this with Kickstarter you

just would have to raise money with Kickstarter in order to then pay people back money with Kickstarter so it doesn't make any sense but if it's free then why not so uh you asked if it had been successful I think that the time frame is too short to really make that sort of judgment we're we're moving into a new phase of LTB coin now to this point we've been Distributing it uh and there's been no utility for it uh we've had you know we had no Redemption uh methods that were not completely manual uh there was no good way to use it in a lot of capacities and so that of course something that doesn't have utility and has a lot of Supply is going to be very low value but that's the thing that's changed over the last two weeks uh last week we rolled out the sponsor tool

which lets people redeem um which lets people redeem l or a variety of other tokens that we except for various things that we offer on the network like sponsorships on the show or display advertisements on the front page um uh and then yesterday we rolled out our essentially automated vending machine a project we call swapbot um and the vending machine lets you buy LTB coin for Bitcoin or for a variety of other tokens including storage's coin um swarms coin uh xcp um you know we're we're only compatible with counterparty tokens at this point which are built on the Bitcoin blockchain um but uh but but we already kind of have that sort of multi- token and different tokens achieve different prices right so we give a 40% discount

when you buy something with LTV coin but we actually charge 10% more when you want to spend swarm with us because swarm doesn't actually have that much utility so I mean it's it's a cool project we'll take it and we'll you know trade trade tokens for it but it's not the same as if you were using our token within our system so that's the thing that's different now is that now there's actually something you can do with it and indeed since that happened we've seen the amount of volume trading on the centralized markets like poniac where LTB coin is traded um go up quite a bit and it's been it's been interesting watching you know because every time we do something the ecosystem is still small enough that it caus is Big reverberations so yesterday when we rolled out the vending machine we had been pricing LTB coin at 20% above

whatever the current market price was but then somebody crashed the price because the market is small and so the price goes way down somebody comes over to uh somebody comes over to the vending machine and they say oh well this is 20% above the current super low price but I can get you know a whole bunch of coins and I don't have to worry about Market depth so then they bought from us so we had a conversation with them this morning we're like how you know what exactly did you do and you know so now we're going we went through and changed it so that our price for LTB coin is uh pegged to the 24-hour high of LTB coin um so you don't really want to buy LTB coin from US unless you just want to use it right then and it's a convenience

thing but if you're G to spend LTB coin with us then again we're recognizing it not only with that 40% discount but at that much higher price relatively speaking so it's it's just such an experiment as an experiment LTB coin has been incredibly successful because it is shown all of the things that are impossible to do with tokens because nobody has built that tool yet and it's why indeed we've wound up building token le as a project and as a platform and what I'm spending most of my time thinking about these days yeah I mean I I've been asked by a few people uh about you know you know with different projects oh couldn't we use a token and they hadn't known about LTB coin necessarily but you know couldn't we create our own currency to

iniz people and stuff and I was like yeah that's a it's a great idea but you probably want to wait for like at least a year because I agree right there's so many different components that all have to be there otherwise it just doesn't work and you have had the sort of I guess interesting challenging but you know also difficult job of having to build all of this from scratch well to be clear I'm not I'm not building it I'm the Like Chief Visionary officer idation guy I come up with all the all the you know like big problems that I run into that are super annoying to me complain about uh I have uh so I have two co-founders on the token Le project um who are you know active working on it um Nick wrathman and then Devon Weller are

both technical sides of that so uh so we've been able to in the three months we've been working on the token Le project as a formal project been able to make very very fast progress um going through this and actually I think that you know I I probably you know in hindsight if I had the opportunity to and still learn the lessons I would have waited a year to launch LTB coin because a lot of people didn't understand understand the time frame we were on and I didn't even really understand the time frame that we were on I had kind of assumed that we'd be able to build this stuff and have it out in you know three months and the reality of development just hits you in the face like a brick well one one thing you mentioned that that I really like is that you know

the importance of all this is is the experiment and and I think that you know judging the success of a project or of something like LTB coin because of price or because of you know uh wide use or is probably not necessarily a good uh a good indicator and and perhaps the you know what you've learned from it is is definitely more valuable than any any of what that may accomplish I'm very glad that we didn't we never sold it it was very important to me that it would always be something that we give away to volunteers who were doing stuff for us anyways and not sell it simply because I was not convinced it was going to work right I was convinced that it was an experiment worth doing and I still am convinced that it's an

experiment worth doing but nothing is simp simple you know I mean the thing about all of this stuff though is that like the the the usability issues are the issue and it's not usability with LTB coin it's not even really usability with tokens it's usability with getting people into Bitcoin in the first place as soon as that problem gets solved the whole world's going to change because that is the thing that holds people back it's the thing where if you hear something cool and want to look at it's like okay well but but this is hard and if it's hard then why would you spend your time doing it so I mean that's the that's the corpor problem you know is that like you've got Bitcoin that's difficult counterparty that's difficult their wallet has become increasingly slow as time has gone on so I don't

necessarily know if that's the you know best long-term solution or All That Jazz um it's a it's just such a fluid situation so that would be the thing you know for anybody out there who's wondering what they should do the thing that they should do is try and learn as much as possible about whatever it is that you're trying to do and try and avoid making decisions about which particular thing to cement yourself on and that's the thing that I'm going to work on for the rest of my life because things change and uh you know this is a this is a big project but I think that we're going to provide a lot of opportunities to a lot of different people to do things that I have no idea about in much the same way that you know we can I I like to catalyze other things

I think that the token Le project and the platform really is going to provide opportunities um to do whatever you want and have it be easy yeah I mean one advantage as well of not selling it I think is the whole legal liability side which uh I guess we will see where that goes with the crowdfunding projects but uh speaking of crowdfunding uh you were also launch another project called coin Powers I mean we once had actually Tatiana on ages ago I think when she was launching her to her coin uh through coin Powers so can you talk a little bit about what's the role of crowdfunding in this and uh what what would be the results you saw with with coin powers

sure um I think that so coin Powers no longer exists and part of the reason why coin Powers no longer exists in my opinion and I want to be clear that I am you know I had very little to do with coin Powers towards the end I was mostly involved helping Tatiana go through her project essentially that was a large part of my role and then I consulted with them because I I saw cryptocur and crowdfunding is being very natural mating one of the things that is interesting if you think about it is that you don't really need a site like Kickstarter in order to crowdfund anymore why do you need a site like Kickstarter you need a site like

Kickstarter because they have a community supposedly although it's not that valuable anymore since again they have so many projects on it that it's very very difficult to stand out um they charge money and they have a payment processor so and they can tell you that you can't list so that payment process is the pretty much single most important part about being a crowdfunding site and if you're a crowdfunding site that uses tokens or uses Bitcoin then you don't need a payment processor and so if you don't need a payment processor then why do you have to have dedicated crowdfunding sites why aren't there crowdfunding blogs where people have crowdfunding campaigns that they run themselves and then they incentivize people to promote it on their blogs and they get you know they get some sort of commission for things that come through so that's the thing I think that uh that

uh you know coin Powers really real ized partly because I told it to them a whole bunch of times um and uh the core problem I think there was they were building a closed platform they're building a closed source project and they wanted to be the definitive crowdfunding platform and I think that that's not really possible in a world that we're going into so um you know the future of crowdfunding as I see it there certainly will be you know projects and platforms like Kickstarter that people choose to use because they want to use them but if you don't want to use them then sites like you know projects like Lighthouse have already started started to show us what you can do just with Bitcoin and that's a that was a great experience I'm not sure if you guys have tried Lighthouse yet it's a crowdfunding

potentially Bitcoin wallet yeah uh very very cool technology again it's very promising well and and the other thing it does is it opens it it asks the question if crowdfunding can be a wallet then can't a website be a wallet I mean if we're we're we're trying to put wallets into websites right now that's what we're trying to do and it's hard because you have to do a whole bunch of client side stuff otherwise you have centralization of risks if the if the website is compromised and the wallet can be compromised but Lighthouse shows us that what if we instead just take the wrapper of a Bitcoin wallet and put communities inside of that and so you just interact with the community there uh and because it's built into a wallet you can do all of these things and it is

just as simple as Lighthouse they don't have to wait for any confirmations because the wallet knows what it just did so again like this we we have to reorient how we think about all of these things because the possibilities are fundamentally different so back to crowdfunding um so uh have I mentioned swapbot yet I don't know okay so so anyways you if you want to check out uh the most recent uh tool we've rolled out for token Le you can check out swapbot um if you've heard of the vent Project vnn D uh project which is again an automated token vending machine it's quite similar to that except ours also has the ability to Peg to market prices and to accept multiple tokens at discounts or premiums relative to those market prices so um so

the thing that I'm bringing up here is that uh once you have that basis right once you have the ability to have an automated vending machine then what is a threshold based crowdfunding campaign a threshold based crowdfunding campaign is uh is logic basically for a vending machine that knows how much it's trying to raise in terms of some value number in whatever type of token you want to think about value in um it knows what types of tokens it's willing to accept and what discounts or premiums uh that it's willing to give for those because it might like Bitcoin more than it likes LTB coin or something like that um and uh you need to know the the date that it should close by and you need to know the type of token that people get back right because again you know like with the

Tatiana coin thing you the problem with Tatiana coin again it's the same thing with LTB coin it's that yeah sure you've got the coin out there but now the coin is the easy part and how do you do Redemption how do you do Mass sense how do you do anything so actually to do the distribution of taan coin we use the LTB distributor and it's been used by a lot of other projects for the same sort of thing so that's where again I think we're going is that crowdfunding won't be uh won't be something that you go to a website for it'll be something that like if you want to be listed on a website you might even pay to have your project listed on the website but then you've got your project listed on the website and yet you still retain control over it so instead all you do is just

take a module right take this chunk of code that has all this logic built into it that you've customized for all of your needs you know you put in the address it's going to send the uh it's going to send the um the funds to when it's done and then you just let it go and it's this little module that you plug in and people can choose to send money to it and they get tokens back if the project successfully funds and if they don't then they get back their money so what you're saying is you're separating the funding from the crowdfunding basically you're taking ownership of the funding in a way well you you have separate yeah yeah [Music] what you're doing is you're separating the funding from everything and and that's that's the important takeaway here is that is that whatever you're doing whether it's crowdfunding or or

anything you can take you can separate the the token part you can separate the payment from the engagement part and by doing that you can make it so that you don't have to use a payment processor and because you don't have to use a payment processor you don't have to do I mean you you can do lots more stuff and you can do lots more stuff and more than that you know once you get past thinking about it like payments then it's everything because anything can be represented as a token um yeah absolutely I I think really Lighthouse for me like using it the first time you know sometimes you try to explain Bitcoin to people and like why is this so special and I think lightos is like a great example where you could like show it to people and I

think most people would understand well this is really novel like this is something that you just cannot do otherwise so I I agree for me it was also kind of a great experience coming back because I had got gotten so used to bitcoin and using Bitcoin that they become almost normal and you think like ah this is like uh you know like it's maybe not so not so exciting anymore you know it's been a while but I think that's the sort of for me like using it the first time kind of rekindled that um excitement now I also wanted to we also wanted to touch on another topic that I think you've been thinking about a lot which is the content monetization uh and especially tipping so I I've heard a lot of people

say and I I'm not sure if you were one of them that you know tipping was going to be the future and you know Bitcoin makes it easy and and makes that sort of the reality that maybe in the future people can produce content and Pur live on donations I mean okay maybe some people are doing it today but that this would could be Comm a common place I I personally I've always been very skeptical of that but uh what has your experience been now with let's talk Bitcoin and tipping we really deemphasize tipping um we don't sorry I don't mean like we actively deemphasize it I mean that when we switched to this new platform it became less of a priority for us so you know I

mean but it's really dependent on uh it's really dependent on the value of Bitcoin relatively speaking people give more when the value is lower compared to when it's higher um and uh and the numbers can change you know but that's just true of Bitcoin in general people are tied to the price and it makes it really difficult um to do anything because it's not so much about what you're doing then so much as it is about how excited they are and therefore interested in your content so like when the price is down you know like we have you know bad weeks relatively speaking in terms of listeners or in terms of overall site users and when the price is up then we have really really good weeks and it's it's just sort of this funny thing it's a reality in the space um you asked about monetization uh also

um monetization is a struggle um that's largely again what we're trying to do we're trying to give people the ability to create different monetization schemes and it's again it's not just about LT bcoin I don't want to give that impression LT bcoin is kind of like the you can think about it like everything that trades against Bitcoin like you know everything you can buy with Bitcoin like that's what LTB coin is anything within our ecosystem you can buy it with LTB coin but it might not be the best price you know you might somebody might want dollars more than they want something else or whatever and that's sort of left up to the individual users so in the future what we're doing is we're continuing this this concept of ownership we're um going to be you know right now we're finally automating our advertising system our display

advertising system um and in the future we'll be offering individual spaces on individual articles so basically like so when you post okay so you have to think about it like layers uh the lowest layer is somebody who is creating an article or writing a podcast um uh creating an article or writing a podcast sh I just a podcast yeah layers uh nope forgot it remind me live I told you so you wanted to um I think explain how the monetization was going to work with the token l system right so right

now on let's talk Bitcoin we only have advertisements on the front page that's the only place you will find any sort of display advertisements whatsoever and it's not again intentional it's just that we didn't really know what we wanted to do and it didn't really matter because we didn't really care about monetizing um in the future what's going to happen is uh if you write an article or create a podcast you will have essentially um advertising space that you can sell or they can be redeemed for other things or where you can represent something that you want to sell um in that space or you can sell the space to somebody else um uh you'll then post that on a Blog and the blog itself will also have at least one uh ad space that they own and so when they post your piece of content you'll have one thing

that you own and can sell and do whatever you want with they'll have one thing that they own and can do what they want with and this also is true about the front page then the front page and so everybody essentially takes ownership of their particular part of the uh different of the advertisements monetize it monetizes it as they see fit um so you certainly could you know like you could uh in your post have a vending machine embedded that sells tokens that can be redeemed for ad space in that ad that's right below or right at the top of the post you could um you could have a subscription program um where at the bottom of your posts you have a little you know like here's what we were thinking when we were writing this that you don't want to show to everybody but

people who are kind of in your fan club that can actually happen on the same page and again these are things that aren't in yet but they're things that are that exist in Prototype forms what I just described is a concept we call token controlled access which is the idea that um which is the idea that since people can in their wallets in their counterparty wallets have many many many types of tokens not just Bitcoin that's why that's why tokens are so important is because you can have a single address a single Bitcoin address and it can have a thousand different types of tokens each one in different amounts and we and all we have to do as a service is look at that address we have you verify that you control that address and then once you do we can basically just treat it like like

anything that is in that address you own and So within our system then we say okay well this token this token that says you know uh early on it this is a Founder token and so when you have this in your wallet and you're on our website then you can see the founder Forum that's only accessible to people who are founders and so that's that's like a we call it the concept token societies the idea is is that um you look at the same web page as everybody else but based on the content of your inventory or Pockets we're kind of going back and forth between the different motifs we want to use um uh based on that you will see something different and the concept extends Beyond this sort of basic oh well what you see on the page even again

we have these vending machines right so you can take that same type of token controlled access concept and pivot it a little bit and turn it into roll coins and a roll coin is something that doesn't you don't see anything differently but when you visit you know the the vending machine or whatever then it sees oh this person is a someone who should get a 10% % discount so you visit the same store as anybody else but because you have this token that they don't have the system treats you differently so this idea of token controlled access is it's not really so much attributed to tipping where like you could use a busker sort of as an analogy but it's moreing tipping implies that you're not giving value back tipping implies that

there's something that I mean like tipping again it's not to say that we won't accept tips it's just to say that the type of people who will give tips are specific and not everybody by any way shape or form so token controlled access just to come back to that it's it allows you to implement a pay wall essentially on your on your yeah it's more it's more like an intelligent membership site right really versatile right right now the only way we really have to implement this intelligently I think is it's just through browser plugins um do you think that in the future we might see some open protocols like be integrated I don't know in uh in like the HTML API or something where browsers much like you see now

like when you use a browser and asks you for your location uh access or it asks you to have access to your webcam a browser would query you and say okay this content says that you you have to pay for it with with a currency this is the address this is what you need to send um do you think that in it's a possibility in in the future we might see more integrated access and more standardized access to this type of uh pay wall integration yeah absolutely and again we don't really think about it like it's a pay wall because it's more because the okay so a pay wall you're paying for access to something right and once you've got access to it then it's over but with this again they're tokens so if you wanted one and it was valuable to you then you actually own something

valuable right because if somebody else wants it and they don't have it then that's valuable so that's that's the difference again it's it's this concept of ownership it's more like you get keys and if you want to sell your key to somebody else you can sell your key to somebody else and then you don't have it anymore and and it's a thing but yeah it's uh it's it's very very very generic and uh you mentioned a browser plugin this actually happens just through right now let's talk Bitcoin accounts we're working on um another branch called token Le accounts it's actually on it's in our GitHub I believe it's called XO um and that is a generic service and it is literally it's it's like ooth actually quite similar um you like there's no community there there's no real features there all you do is create

an account and then associate your your wallet so that it can become your inventory and then uh you'll use that to log in essentially at other services that choose to to opt in to uh to get that cool yeah I mean I remember the first time I heard uh you talk about this on the list of Bitcoin podcast uh you know I I really do think this is a has huge potential and could become in the future how you manage a lot of interaction monetization and all that of course it is a it is a very big hurdle no because then you first need to get people to to have a counterparty wallet and have somehow give them these tokens

so it's it's it's very difficult to the having the counterparty wallet is the hard part once they have that then everything is easy everything is automated all they have to do is show up but it's that it's that setting up the initial counter wallet and then using counter wallet too I mean counterwallet you know again like we picked counter user friendly yeah it's well it's it is it's pretty user friendly it's just slow you know I mean it just takes forever to do anything and sometimes it fails and it's just it's just new technology so yeah I mean you know it's the best that was out there at the time but if we pick any year I don't know if that's going to be the case so I'm I'm very like my perspective is that it doesn't matter to me we are we're like they're all down

here and they're competing and we're just like up here and every time you know we just connect down to them so we tie together tokens eventually you'll be able to take tokens created on the you know bitshares system and they will be able to trade against and interact with tokens on the um you know on let's talk Bitcoin or counterparty or all that stuff so as a higher platform a higher level platform we actually have the ability to connect tokens in a way that you know they can't naturally buy themselves so before we're wrapping up we we'd like to talk a take a a bit of a step back uh step back from let's talk Bitcoin and think talk bit about Bitcoin in general and of you know where we're at in this technological and economical and maybe social uh Evolution so you

know as as we all know 2014 has been accompanied with this massive price decline uh you know whether this is sign something to worry about or not I guess opinions differ on that one um I do think we are seeing a relatively slow adoption certainly slower than then probably almost all of us anticipated a year ago so what's your take on kind of where we at and how things are going uh I think that we're at a very healthy place I think that we're you know uh going at the pace that things need to go you know um moving from being purely a commentator to actually you

know participating in the creation of some of these tools has really given me a greater appreciation simply for the amount of complexity and the amount of time required in order to build stuff that's new and when you're building something that nobody's built before it's really really really hard because you don't know what to do you just know that I have this problem here's what my best guess is at the solution and then you try that's really the thing that that we've done is try to be as iterative as possible um you know uh and we and it's it's it's bad sometimes you know I change my mind about things and we you know we pivot because of that and uh it's a challenging environment to be in um you know the Bitcoin as a whole like I said I think that this is incredibly

healthy and I think it's healthy because the cycle is one that I've now seen a number of times uh the price goes up people start doing projects because they see the prices up and they're like oh this is a great opportunity then the price comes down because it takes a long time and there was a lot of hype about the projects initially and then a lot of them failed because they weren't very good ideas anyways or because things petered out once the price went down and then the ones that survive come out and I think that we saw that very recently with like the uh the uh coinbase exchange you know I mean like that's certainly a project that's been in the work for quite some time and it's one that will drive legitimacy quote unquote and drive adoption quote unquote because it lowers the barrier to be able to do

this stuff for people who have the greatest barrier so that's that's where we are I think that we uh we're about to as the price continues to go down you know we will see over the next six months a bunch of really exciting projects come out that were started during the bubble and that have been uh you know continued during this uh drive down in price much to the sugarin of everybody who started working on it but eventually it comes out and eventually it makes a difference so I feel like that that's happening everywhere cool so one thing I've been wondering about thinking about a bit and I don't know what your perspective on that is um is that maybe if you take the larger picture then uh this is all good because

obviously in terms of a user user experience services like bitcoin's not for the mainstream um but at the same time it seems that a lot of people expect didn't expect this right so regarding the projects failing um it just seems to me that it this year a lot of projects will have to fail right I because they were holding things in Bitcoin and like lost a ton of money uh or because they sort of it buil bu in their models and their expectations that there would actually be more user growth and there would be off to some start

where maybe it's still very much in the building phase and the third part and and maybe you haven't seen that so much but I think if the price continues to be that low maybe it will also come uh is that maybe it will become more difficult to raise uh investment money and maybe to some extent we see that already I think that when the price is high people do number of projects fail you broke up for the last part of your uh for the last part of your statement and I think I talked over you can you repeat the last part do do you see those same things happening like

that we have uh you know first of all startups losing money because they're holding Bitcoins uh that you know maybe increasingly difficult fundraising environment and also just that the growth isn't maybe as high as it was expected so that as a consequence we will see a ton of projects and startups fail this year um I do think the projects will fail projects oftentimes should fail um and you know I don't like talking about other people's projects um uh yeah projects uh sometimes should fail and that's a healthy thing those people should go and work on other things that money should be used for other stuff I don't think that the price necessarily is going to

correlate with the ability to find funding I think that the price correlates with the requirement to find funding I think that when the Bitcoin price is high companies that are full-on believers in Bitcoin don't need any funding and when the price is low that's the opportunity for for you know people to essentially buy into them so yeah I think that there will be you know it's an opportunity is is the way that I kind of look at and I think a lot of people are going to be looking at is that with valuations like this you can buy Bitcoin a lot cheaper but ultimately it doesn't matter because nobody prices in bit Bitcoin if you're creating a startup right now you're denominating your costs in dollars and it doesn't matter what the price of Bitcoin is until the that actual moment and then it only matters

if you're choosing to keep them instead of immediately selling them with a service bid pay right so you know I mean it's it's not it's it's a healthy environment it's a healthy environment it would be better if the price was higher because we wouldn't need so much Venture Capital but I think that it will be even more available now than it was last year so we're just about to wrap up uh so you mentioned that your role has evolved from a commentator in the space to an and actually being involved in in many projects something perhaps that Bri and I have not been so much uh doing and and I often talked about um you know how how it may change our view of the ecosystem but so we were curious where you think your role will be evolving where you

think how do you think it would be evolving in the next year with regards to LTB and regards to the other projects that you that you're working on I mean I know that a lot of the projects that you've been working on um you sort of put on the side for lack of time and they fizzled so uh how do you see that evolving over the next year yeah that's the uh that's the that was the lesson for me for last year is that I took on too many projects and so I backed way way off towards the end of the year and basically told everybody that if they wanted to keep me around you know having regular time they had to pay me so that was a good way to clear the decks um and uh now I'm just focused on projects that I really care about

that's that's I think a lesson that I anybody who hasn't yet learned I would really encourage you to think strongly about is only spend time on things that you really really care about and if you don't care about something enough to you know to really really care about it then maybe it's not the best project for you to be working on maybe that's just me though like I said I'm kind of crazy um I think that my role of let's talk Bitcoin I don't know how long we're going to do the show you know I might be doing it for another you know five years might be doing it for another two years might be doing it for another year kind of depends on how long it's required and even if I sto doing it doesn't doesn't necessarily mean that it will go away and indeed it's my intention for all of

these things to continue long after I've ceased working on them my history is one of working on projects for three to five years and then getting bored and wandering off because all of the kind of basic stuff has happened so I think that in the future my role is going to be morphing in the next year my role will be morphing from editor-in-chief of let's talk Bitcoin probably to let somebody who's really going to do the job do that and instead I'll move to curator and chief um because as I mentioned in addition to the new collaborative torial system we're building we're also building um a curation system that lets you uh sort out and pull from you know further down the stack of content creation and then highlights stuff that's good and also builds in you know social metrics and things like that so that's a slightly

further out version of what we're doing but that is where I think I'm going to wind up being because I I like to I like to lead from the perspective of laying out the philosophy saying these are the things that we value these are the things that we do if you want to associate with us associate with us use us all you want if you don't then there are lots of other people out there too and that's a philosophy that we're carrying over with token Le because I've been talking about token le as if it's let's talk Bitcoin but the reality is is that it's an open- Source platform that has all of these tools and capabilities built into it that anybody can install and use themselves for free and really what we're going to be doing with that what I think that our future with token

Le is is to create a very WordPress uh.com style model where uh if you just you know want to roll your own and use all our tools then buy all means go for it there'll probably be um some type of app store available for different modules because again the whole idea here is to enable people to conduct commerce between themselves and each other as they see fit and as is in their own best interest I can't wait to the Sol and try it out and and then uh just briefly so in terms of the question you will be focusing on it it is sort of that question of content monetization and and that things you think will be preoccupying you uh that's my it that's that's the itch that I am scratching for

myself personally but the solution that we are creating is regardless of content creation content creation is a portion of community but again it's the reinvention of community in the same way that we used to have town halls and now we don't now we have Internet websites where you can do some of the stuff that you can at a town hall but you can't do everything and you can't do it in a way that's trusted often because we don't really know identity is a big question on the internet and token solve that problem cool no I think that's a that's a a great way of thinking about it that's sort of a reinvented community and it's interesting how also how the the sort of economic interaction and those incentive things then uh you know become a core part of it so Adam yeah I was goingon to say uh I like to say that

let's talk Bitcoin is that what we're doing is we're not growing the world's tallest tree let's talk Bitcoin isn't supposed to become the biggest website in the world we're growing a forest and the way that forests grow is that a tree grows to maturity and then it seeds all around it and then other Tre trees grow up and you you know grow out you grow horizontally instead of vertically that's the world that we're moving towards it's a very decentralized one and it's because we don't need to be centralized anymore we can associate with the people that we want and they can be multiple groups of people you can have multiple identities you can have the same identity you can do whatever you want all this stuff will be possible in the next couple of years it's all enabled by crypto cool well Adam thanks so much for joining us today it was

really great talking to you thank you guys um so uh just briefly again if regarding inside Bitcoin so it's inside Bitcoins de March 5 to 6 5th to 6th and the coupon code was epicenter IBC all in capitals so you get 15% off um so thanks so much for listening we will be back actually we will be back tomorrow uh with another live show and we will be back on Tuesday with another live show tomorrow we're going to do a premier de phip I think PR Philippi yeah so she is a lawyer or legal scholar and been piing for sort of about dac's and on Tuesday

we're going to have well one guy who's also been on on less of Bitcoin before we're gonna have Adam back on uh and Greg Maxwell as well I think uh to talk about side chains so we've often talk about side change with different people so now we're g to be able to talk with them uh so yeah you can join us uh just check on Google+ and we'll have the the life uh the lifetime there and if you want to support the show of course donations are appreciated epson.com tips uh you can also subscribe to newsletter at end.com newsletter and give us an iTunes review and uh that's all so thanks so much and we look

forward to being back [Music] soon